Yeah, we are used to experience the cities during the day, so we're used to think that cities are just working during the daytime, but a lot of things are happening at nighttime. That's right, and we're going to explore those things in today's episode. Hi and welcome back to the City's Reimagined podcast. I'm your voice of choice, Johannes Riegler, and this is Reimagining the City at Night. Tonight we are heading out into the city of the dark. That's right, the episode is all about what happens
when the sun goes down. So we are kicking things off with a little techno to get you all in the mood. That's certainly not my favorite genre of music. But anyway, I'm joined today by Simone D 'Antonio. Simone is an expert on sustainable urban development, and he's supporting local and regional authorities with innovative projects. Right now, he's working with 10 cities across Europe in an urban network called Cities After
Dark. And what they're doing, they're exploring all aspects of what the nighttime economy is and what it needs. So I suggest you make sure that you are caffeinated enough, have a coffee and an energy drink, or whatever keeps you going through the night. But before you lose yourself on the dance floor too much, there's a heads up I need to give you. The nighttime economy is much more than just clubs and bars. There's
more lenses to that. That includes mobility, care work, hospitality, logistics, emergency services, security and access to services around the clock. And we will touch up on that today. If you like the content. subscribe to the show or smash the like button or send me an email at johannes at Anthropocene .city. And now we are off to the night to Simone D 'Antonio, who's going to tell you all about the nighttime economy. Simone, what sparked your interest in cities
in the first place? In fact, I grew up in the metropolitan area of Naples, Napoli, in Herculaneum, specifically. So it's a city with thousands of years of history. So Naples, that is as urban as it can get. Yeah, exactly. Still from the name, you know, Napoli is taken from the Greek Neapolis, New City. the urban topics are in some ways everywhere there. And I've always loved cities because they are places full of challenges but also places full of solutions to the challenges
of our time. The metropolitan area of Naples is more or less 10 kilometers apart from the city center. I saw how much the lack of public transport, the lack of public spaces, the social inequalities, the lack of spaces to do sports really affected the everyday life of people. And I really think that these elements were very important for shaping my interest in in cities. Do you have a remembrance when that was in your
life? At what age did you think, oh, that is something I'm more interested in, I want to work on that topic? In fact, I was living there until 2006 when I moved to Brussels. So I experienced the magic of the 90s there in Napoli and the beginning of the century living in a city that was very... different than the city that we know now. It's over -touristified, it's full of visitors.
At the time there was not that much tourism, it was basically national tourism, not international, so it was really rare to find some tourists from abroad. And it was very authentic. I love to say that Napoli is the northest city of the global south. And it's still true, in my opinion, for many aspects of the everyday life there. And when I travel abroad, I always see great similarities with cities like Medellin or... Cairo or Delhi
or Mumbai. So I really feel that these cities have much in common with Napoli, with the place where I grew up. In what way? Tell me a bit about it. In the way people live in the public space, in the way people interact among them, in the way people sell things or survive in some ways. So the traffic is in some ways very similar to how the city is used on an everyday basis. So it's the role of the marketplaces, the role of the street vendors, or the sound. The sound that
is always very loud. Not only the sound of the cars but also sound of people shouting or calling to each other. These kind of things are really connecting cities of the Global South in some ways. And I think that Napoli should be proud of it as a city. Naples is a city that should really invest on this legacy. It's one of the most ancient cities in the world which is still surviving and which is still there. since its creation without having been destroyed or changed
also in the urban planning structure. Nice. We might come back to the tourism part or the tourism issue, which you mentioned a bit later. But tell me a bit more. So you moved from Napoli to Brussels. What did you do there? Did you study there? Where did the urban background come in? In fact, I studied political sciences, international relations in Napoli. I studied there at the Oriental University, which is the University of Oriental Studies. I moved to Brussels for an internship in 2006
while I was still studying. And then I got offered a job there in Brussels at the Association of Cities and Municipalities. That was a way for the Italian Association of Municipalities to bring our mayors and elected officials, civic officials to Brussels and to connect them to
the European institutions. And before going to Brussels, I didn't... even though that the national associations of cities could have interest in being there, in making some forms of institutional lobbying activities, when I went to Brussels I realized that these kind of offices, these kind of foundations were really useful for creating connections, not only with European institutions,
but with cities. So there were, in that period, in those three, four years, three, four rotating presidencies of the European Council, which were really influential in shaping the debate on cities, in shaping how cities in the future should look
like. And it was really important, in my opinion, also for understanding that working with cities is not just working on the ground with infrastructure projects, but it's also working on dimensions such as the active participation of the residents or the collaboration with different levels of governance or the multi -level governance were important for attracting resources, but also for creating the conditions. for innovative projects.
Yeah. And we met, I think the first time we met, that must have been in 2013, 2012, for a European project on social innovation in cities, which we ran back then when I was working at the Austrian Institute of Technology. Were you in Brussels still? Or did you move? I was in Rome. You were in Rome. So after that you moved to Rome and
continued working with Angie. But how did you decide, because you work a lot with cities around the globe and cities throughout, or local public administration, I should say, throughout Europe and the globe. What excites me of this is basically the impact that these projects are creating in cities. I had the chance to to work with cities from different positions within the association of cities, which is like a ministry in Italy. So it's a point of reference for local governments.
I saw the challenges that local representatives, civic officials had in improving the way they were working or in creating innovative projects while working for URBACT, European Urban Initiative, and even before with the Urban Innovative Actions, I saw how much these European programs can be fundamental for bringing something innovative to the everyday life of cities. So basically I spent 10 years at the Association of Cities, even a bit more than 10 years, as contact person
of the National Urban Point for Italy. And what I did in that position was to create this bridge between the everyday life of cities in Italy and these programs which are important also for not only for giving resources but also for giving methodologies for some ways of supporting cities in a lateral thinking about their future. And after this experience, I focused on the support
to some of these networks as expert. So I saw from the other side, from just national level, how much the action of experts and consultants can be important also for seeing things from the outside and also for improving the perception of... urban innovation cities, because what I see is that many cities are doing innovative things, but they just don't realize that they're doing something innovative because it's part of the everyday life or it's one of the projects
that they have, but it's not the most important one. So sometimes I, I received some, some, some contacts of cities which are doing things or they approached me for getting some support on specific projects. And then I say, guys, okay, you're doing great. But there's another project that you mentioned me just very briefly that maybe it's more innovative than the thing that you are working on. Maybe just to connect the dots. Yeah. And it's already there. That's good.
Before going down the rabbit hole of, let's say, innovative technicalities of innovation, I have one question for you. I know that you're working on a project on the nighttime. which I find super fascinating and super interesting. So you want to be honest, how much is that an excuse to hang out in nice bars and go to clubs? A lot. I was hoping you would say that. I'm very, very sincere about it. It's a great opportunity to connect with great bars, with great clubs, but also with
great people. behind them yeah but tell tell us about uh about this project or uh the projects called cities after dark or in general about the nighttime economy where does it come from how does it you you mentioned before we started the recording nighttime economy is from uh 6
p .m to 6 a .m what falls under that uh give us a bit of a taste yeah we are used to uh experience the cities during the day, so we're used to think that cities are just working during the daytime, but a lot of things are happening at night time. It's not just bars and clubs, it's not just about entertainment or hospitality, but it's something in my opinion broader than this. At night, we have different categories of people who are working. We have nurses, doctors, bakers, policemen, people
working in the transport sector. So for them, the city is really working on 24 hours. And the objective of Cities After Dark is to explore the potential of the cities. different dimensions of the nighttime economy. So it's not just about what are the sectors that are usually connected to our idea of nighttime as something enjoyable, as a very creative moment, as a moment for personal and cultural growth, but also as a productive
place. We are doing that with 10 cities with different levels of experience on nighttime economy. We have some cities like Paris and Tallinn which already had some strategies on nighttime economy and some interesting forms of governance or coordination among different departments or different offices within the local authority. Also with strong political presence on these topics. Some other
cities are very new to the topic. We have Braga as a lead partner, then Genoa, Malaga, Piraeus, Varna and many others, which are working for the first time on the nighttime economy. They are using the opportunity given by this Orbach network, which is the first. network have fully done on this topic to carry out testing actions on this and integrate strategies that are going
to be night policies for them. And it's in many cases also the first opportunity that they have to deal with the variety of stakeholders working at night. What are the actions they are working
on? Some cities worked on the localization of nighttime activities in order to decongestionate the city centers, which are usually the most populated night spots, and bring some activities out of the city centers, which is something also in line with... the 15 -minute city concept, so bringing not only access to public spaces or to green areas to transport, but also access to cultural and economic opportunities after dark for all. It's part of the debate, in my
opinion. Genoa, for instance, is working on that. They tested the extension of a public transport line or bus line to the suburbs. And they organized some cultural events, something like guided tours of an historical palace or DJ sets in unusual places. So it was a way for testing the reaction of the residents, but also for testing the reaction of people who were going to this neighborhood for the first time for these events. And it was
really good. Talin worked a lot on the involvement of a specific category of people, young people from 14 to 18 years old, who are in some ways not yet night users. And there is a risk that they are not going to be night users as we were at the time because behaviors are changing. Right now, fighting against the sofa, fighting against everything we can have from home, from delivery, food delivery or Netflix or other things. We
have everything at home. So it's completely changing also the way people live at night and experience cultural life at night. It's a very different
experience, right? with the young ones there's a different competition you have before you might uh let's say nighttime the nighttime economy or gastronomy and bars might have competed with each other but now they compete apparently with with you know as you said netflix sofa uh liverando who brings brings the food it's comfortable at home it's it's a different kind of A different kind of spending money, which is not necessarily... Yeah, you have a different experience with that.
You don't experience the city per se as such. Yeah, the pandemic had an impact on it, for sure. There is a generation of people who were supposed to start to go out in 2020, 2021, and they basically stopped to go out during those years. They are not going out right now or they are going out less than before. Rising prices is an element, but also some cultural changes that we see in cities. For instance, in many countries, we see that for health reasons, people are drinking
less. So this is a challenge also for bar owners, restaurant owners to offer some alternatives. to go out and enjoy the night out without drinking was the core element of going out until a couple of years ago. So everything is changing, and we are focusing on how cities are supporting this change, working with business owners, with cultural actors, but also with providers of innovative
services. One of the things that is attracting a lot the attention on Cities After Dark is the fact that some of our cities are launching nighttime nurseries which are really good for families where both the parents are working at night in bars, clubs or hospitals or as drivers of buses or metro. Some cities are also testing night nurseries just for supporting families, young families who want to go out for a night. So these nurseries are open from 7 p .m. to midnight.
You can leave kids with other kids, and so it's better than just having the babysitter at home. And young families can go to the theater or they can go to watch a movie or go to the restaurant. project was launched in Genoa. It's a very interesting initiative that in my opinion is also attracting the attention of other cities across the globe like Sydney or others who are willing to support nighttime economy, also providing new services
to the people. Yeah, I really like that because when you start thinking about all these different, let's say, urban -related aspects of Of the night.
There are so many different aspects to it. You just brought in the night nursery, which I... certainly never heard of or never thought about probably because i don't have kids but i uh there is i've never heard of that but there's also so much other other things there's the so you know the the sociology or the sociological part about it that uh like the air in the city makes you free uh and that that comes very much with with cultural events and and going out at night
uh i believe where you just explore the city in a different way. And anonymity of the city can have a huge impact or brings very different opportunities, possibilities, compared to a small town or a village. But then again, you have so many other interesting parts. You have the mobilization of... under activated or underused spaces which might come in you might have yeah the economic You might have alternative economic perspectives on that or alternative ways of doing culture
or promoting culture. I found it very fascinating. But then on the other hand, you also have these whole dilemmas, which we already touched on in the beginning, that some cities are becoming very popular for that reason, for their nighttime economy and going out. Do you have some thoughts on that, on this link between nighttime economy
and overtourism? Yes, I think that this element was one of the things that drove Praga at the beginning to present this application for a network of nighttime economy, also including cities like Genoa or Zadar, which were included in previous networks, like Tourist Friendly Cities, which was a network on sustainable impact of tourism in Europe or including India. urban agenda for
the EU partnership on sustainable tourism. But I need to say that at the end, many cities didn't go through this aspect working on nighttime economy because they realized that before creating a city that is vibrant at night for the visitors, you need to... make the city vibrant for the residents. And this is an element that we saw in some of the cities of the network, like Budva or Zadar, where the old towns are usually full
of tourists during the summer. And their question is, where do the locals go out when tourists are here? And that's the reason why many cities are investing in diversification of night activities, diversification in space and quality of these activities. But many cities are continuing to focus on elements which are the contrast to noise pollution or the misuse of public spaces which are still present in many cities across Europe. With Cities After Dark we are trying to give
some possible solutions. which are not just technological solutions like CCTV or mechanism for reducing noise, but also mechanism for making public spaces better for all. There are many experiences across Europe of cities which are organizing a series of night events in public spaces or in public parks, which is a very important thing, especially in times of climate emergency as the times we are living in. as a way also for finding some
shelter from hot during the summer period. If you organize these spaces in a way that is safer and more accessible for all, these spaces are going to be more welcoming and people are going to enjoy them in a different way. And then there are some mechanisms also for supporting the cultural vibrancy of these spaces in some cities like
Tallinn are. working on licensing rules. They are making licensing rules more flexible to spaces with a cultural agenda where they host not only music events but also clubbing programs or things which are part of the cultural offer of the city. They offer incentives to these places. some economic support but also the opportunity of selling alcohol longer than other spaces because alcohol obviously is a way for supporting also the revenues of
these spaces. Paris has launched a similar mechanism of support for soundproofing of clubs and bars so it's basically better for the city to have them there. with some profane systems instead of fining them and bringing them to shut down. We have one. In Vienna, we have the Arena, which is, if you ask me, the best concert venue in the world. It's a former slaughterhouse which got squatted in the 70s and is now a concert venue since then. Or it's multiple concert venues,
actually. And it was... based in the industrial area, in the industrial pocket of Vienna. And as the city grows, the industrial city or parts around the slaughterhouse turned into housing. And now they built two huge housing blocks of, I don't know, 25 stories, very close to the arena. And they have open -air concerts as well. So every time there's a concert, of course, with the old sound, they also have a new sound system now, but with the old sound system, they could
hear the music from the open air. And people started complaining. And that is, of course, a very delicate issue because the arena is there for 50 years. And when you know that you move close to such a very famous concert hall, you might have to think about that there might be some noise coming out. of the concert venue.
And now the city jumped in and financed them, or at least partly financed them, a new sound system for their open airs, which is more, let's say, directed to the audience and goes less wild around it. But yeah, it's one of these conflicts I find very interesting, fascinating of how something which is there for a very long time, a cultural institution, if you will, gets into the way of
urban development. Yeah, one of the principles that is emerging a lot in the UK especially, but also in Germany, is the principle of the agent of change. It means that real estate developers will be the ones to pay. or the price of soundproofing in case a club or a concert hall or a festival is already there before developing new buildings.
It's a very controversial principle, it's not easy to implement it, but in the UK it helped a lot to save also some historical venues such as the Ministry of Sound, which is one of the most famous. clubs of London. The implementation of this principle was really important also for saving some parks and spaces like Crystal Palace where concerts and festivals were organized. The Club Commission of Berlin is acting a lot as mediator between the needs of the existing
clubs and real estate developers. So I think that this action of mediation between the needs of different categories of people living in a city. Also adopting some technical solutions, like the one that you highlighted, but also other solutions which are implemented. For instance, in Malm, we were there for the opening festival of the URBAT for Action Planning Networks, and we organized a night tour with the partners of
Cities After Dark. And we saw that in some parts of the city, they started to organize concerts, having a person from the municipality who is a sort of mediator between the needs of concert organizers and the city hall. This guy is just a person living in the neighborhood. But he said, OK, I want to help you because I think it's important that you organize cultural events and concerts.
So he helped them. to locate the sound systems in a way that was not disturbing the residents but was creating fun for people without negative effects as other big concerts were doing very far from the places where people were living in. So it's very interesting also how these solutions
are. are designed. But I think that this combination between practical sense and also, in my opinion, it's important to highlight the added value that nighttime economy creates not only for economic development, which is really hard to assess, but also for the cultural development of the
cities. And one of the things that we saw during one of our study visits in Berlin was the realization of the Tag der Clubkultur, which is the day of club culture where people can go to the clubs also during the morning with families, with elderly persons, and see what are doing these clubs, what is inside the clubs. how many people work
there. And some of our cities, like Prague, decided to replicate this model, organizing a night festival, which was aimed not only to turn the main square into a dance floor for a night, but a way for showcasing the diversity of the night scene of the city. Bar owners, but also artists in some festivals and theater and night workers. So all this Things really show to the people how much it's important to keep the city vibrant at night.
And now it's important also to find an agreement on what can be disturbing for the daily experience
of some residents. Yeah, but it's very interesting what you just said, these measures or these... attempt to to open up the nighttime economy to or these cultural places to a broader audience in a way that to because if you're not a club goer or not going to to concerts or so these places might seem a bit a bit scary at times you know you have you might have people people wandering in and out but you you don't you don't know what this is about if you're not going into
the club yourself right yeah and that's the reason why we focused a lot on the the right to the city at night for all to this concept, which is at the core of the new urban agenda of the UN habitat. And we toured them on a 24 -hour basis. So one of the things that drove me to the nighttime economy was the fact that I was involved in the previous Urban Innovative Actions
project of Turin tonight. which was a project basically on urban security, so how to make a true neighborhood across the Dora River safer at night. So a neighborhood with a strong presence of migrants, which was perceived as unsafe at night, and a neighborhood full of students with a university campus. One of the innovative things of the project was the launch of a call for projects, of micro -projects, so 50 ,000 euros per action, carried out by at least... two NGOs together.
And this project, which funded a lot of theater activities in public spaces or calligraphy courses with the Chinese community, or some actions to rediscover words, cuisine from different migrant communities working there, was very interesting for the people. But in fact, me or other persons, we didn't notice the innovative element. When I was in Canada, I was in Montreal, there was a guy from 24 Hour Nation, which is maybe the most interesting media on nighttime economy.
And Randall told me, look, what is really innovative of your project is the fact that you managed to bring elderly persons, families, and kids out at night. It's not something that is usually happening in America or in the rest of the world.
You should really work on it. So that's the reason why I decided a lot to insist on this element also with Seize After Dark, because if we really make people aware of all the opportunities that they have for making the cities better at night for participating in in the life of the city at night also all the type of contrasts of processes against noise in some ways can be solved if we know each other if we talk to each other and and if we leave the the city uh at night yeah
very nice beautiful um and you already mentioned this global perspective with Montreal and so on. And I know, I saw on your LinkedIn you were recently in India, right? Yes, yes, recently. I wanted to ask you about that a little bit because for a while during my work, I went to China a couple of times. And when I was in Beijing, I liked very much staying at a street which is translated Ghost Street. And my hotel was there.
And that was basically almost two kilometer or 1 .5 kilometer long street with one restaurant, one... after the other and many of them have are open for 24 hours and i find it so fascinating how this is i mean it's a different culture of uh there of the nighttime economy they have the night markets and they rather go out for food and then spend the night in a restaurant But it was really, I really liked that there was
so much going on in the street. And if you pass on a Friday, you saw some things you would otherwise not see on a Friday night in China. It was very fascinating. But it developed from, I read into it, and it developed from a trading hub, which was located in this neighborhood towards this nighttime economy or to this restaurant, collection of restaurants. because the workers of this trading hub had to eat somewhere. And that's how it developed
over the years. But tell us a little bit about your experience in India, how that related to the nighttime economy. How did you perceive it? How did it link to what is happening in Europe? Were you fascinated by what you saw? In fact, everything was really fascinating. It was one of my dreams to go there. Was it a work trip or private? It was a work trip. I was invited there to deliver a presentation at the After Dark Placemaking Weekend India, which was organized
by Placemaking India. It was the first time that this network of architects and urban designers and planners decided to focus on nighttime economy. So I brought there the experience of cities after dark, of the things that we are doing with our cities in Europe. But I took the opportunity also to meet many cultural organizers and representatives of the nighttime economy industries who are active between Bangalore, Mumbai, and Delhi. And it was really great for the reasons that you said
before. The fact that these cities have a very vibrant nightlife, even if this nightlife is not governed. The presence of food markets and street markets in Mangalore, I saw this flower market which opened at 4 o 'clock in the morning and it was really one of the most interesting things in the city to see this market alive at 4 a .m. with a lot of vendors, with the whole local community basically going to the market
between 4 a .m. and 9 a .m. Many cities in the Global South are experiencing the same challenges. One of the most vibrant cities at night is Cairo in Egypt. It's really a city that doesn't sleep. Many cities in China as well had the same perception in Delhi. I was staying in the area of the station, and you can really see that the Pajangarh area, the main bazaar area, is a place where people are still there during the night. They still
sell food or stroll around. So there's a very different way of living in the cities, of living in the public space. And I saw also... something more similar to our concept of nighttime economy in Mumbai, which was really interesting also in terms of zoning policies and also the vibrance of some cultural and entertainment spots. So I saw the diversity of this series, of this urban context, and I need to say that this global side of the... of the action that we are doing with
Cities After Dark is very important. I was in Australia at the end of October for two weeks. I was invited there by the government of the New South Wales, the state of Sydney, which is the first state in the world to have a minister in charge of nighttime economy during the sports. So they have a huge office of 50 persons guided by the nighttime commissioner. which is in charge of defining policies for making in -presence more vibrant in different areas of the state.
So not only in Sydney and its metropolitan area, but also in Byron Bay or in other parts of the state. And Australia is working a lot on that. It's working a lot on the impact, on calculating the impact of a nighttime economy using different sets of data. It's something that we are trying also to transfer to our cities. which are involved
in Cities After Dark. So what I can see is that this network is gaining global attention because we are focusing on something that is important for different types of cities, for cities in America, in Canada, or in Australia, but also in the global south. So I really think that one of the next frontiers is to support cities from India or Southeast Asia or Africa to create night
policies. based on what they already have, based on the vibrancy of the cities and from the organization of public services like waste collection or other things happening at night to the valorization of bars and clubs, which are really driving the cultural life of the cities. Yeah, very nice. Simone, you proved me that it's not only a personal
interest. in going hanging out in bars and cafes but there's much more behind that there is much more yeah and i could i could talk to you for for more hours and i really enjoy when we meet that we have to or i'm enjoying it that we meet regularly or from time to time to to talk in person as well but that leads us already to the last question another that would be what would you advise to anybody who wants to change anything in their cities uh what would be three things
you would advise to them I would advise people to participate in public life, to be part of the life of their neighborhoods and contribute to change. I would advise people to go out. It's something that should not be so much special as it is if we consider the war. to the sofa. We're fighting right now. It's a big competition. Sofa is winning so many times. Yeah, I'm fighting
it every other day. But it's important. And then discover green areas not only during the day but also in other times of the day because the next frontier is to use parks. in a different way than in the past. There are so many parts of the city that are closed. I think the schoolyards for instance, they are great public spaces. Some
cities like Paris are starting to use them. We have public parks which are usually closed after dark, so we need to use these spaces also for evening or night activities if we really want to take the best of our cities. Some cities are also using the beach at night. Dubai is a keeping beach at night because it's too hot to go there to the beach during the day. And so use this kind of things that are in front of us so we
see them every day. If you live on the seaside, you see the beach, you see the seaside, but often people don't use it. If you are in Rome, sometimes you see archaeological ruins or you see parks, but you don't use them at night. So using them at night in a very innovative way can be important for fostering a change that is not after dark, but it's during the 24 hours. Very nice, Simona.
And pro tip for those people living in Vienna, if you go to Schönbrunn Park and Schönbrunn Castle and let yourself be locked into the park at night, it's wonderful because there's no people and it's really nice. And the security guards might be annoyed with you a little bit, but they're okay. They will let you go. All right, Simone, thank you so much for the talk. I really much enjoyed it. And yeah, today you fly to Spain still. So I hope you have a good trip. Thank
you. Thank you, Ernest. See you soon. See you. Bye. That's all for today. I hope the next time you go out at night, the next time you win the fight against the sofa, you see the city at night with a different set of eyes. If you like the show, make sure to leave a comment, to rate the show and subscribe to the channel. And to play you out today, we're going to go back to the usual post -punk tune. Because if you ask me, that's much better than the Berlin style techno.
Okay, good night and I hope to catch you soon.