CD200: UTXO - WISP - BETTER NOSTR

Happy Bitcoin Tuesday, freaks. It's your host, Odell, here for another civil dispatch. The show focused on actual Bitcoin and freedom tech discussion. It is currently seventeen hundred UTC, April 21. That is block height nine four six zero seven nine. Bitcoin is trading at $75,765, and that makes the stats per dollar at 1,320. You guys will be listening to this in a few hours. I like to get it up and out to you guys ASAP.

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Been a long time coming. Can't believe this is his first appearance. But we have the man, the myth, the legend, UTXO here in the house. How's it going, UTXO? Doing great, man. Thanks for having me. So I've known you since you were a Bitcoin dev, and now you've decided you finally had enough of Noster apps being unstable and you had to jump into the masochism yourself.

Yeah. That was an unfortunate decision. I make a lot of those starting with Bitcoin now. Here's why here's my worst one with Noster.

So, I mean, wisp is awesome. You have this new app for Android wisp. Why should people care? Yeah, I don't know if a lot of people were in my shoes, like mostly on the, on the Android side, you would see that a lot of the apps were sort of becoming like more unstable or slower

or just didn't have basic things. All the apps have them now, but like, we didn't have GIF keyboards, even though that's like the easiest thing in the world to do. And like that took years and there were just, there were many other things like that that I just like, I wish I had them. And then finally AI got good enough that I was like, okay, I don't have to complain about it anymore. I can just build my own plan. I'm gonna I'm gonna talk about AI too. But why is Wisp

well, let me put it this way first. It's a great app. It's easier said than done. It's hard to make something that's stable and reliable. Fundamentally, do you think you have a different perspective or strategy in terms of like how like, what you like, why is Wisp different? Yeah, fair question. I think two things. One is like, I'm a very heavy nostril user myself, you know, in a bad way. I have a very good idea of what I want.

And probably another like really big aspect is that I'm pretty close to FIA Jeff. You know, I talk to him all the time and I follow his ideas, you know, like when he says something is good or something is bad, I actually, I listened to him. But really the main thing to take away from Wisp is that, yeah, there's a lot of focus on UX stability,

making it fast, which is really important because like we have to, our apps have to compete with big tech apps. Like people are not going to come to Noster because it's decentralized, like maybe a small portion will, but if we really want mass adoption, like the apps need to be awesome. So really I'm like building with that in mind, but at the same time, like we couldn't take

shortcuts that make big tech fast, like having fun central server like that, that basically sort of kills the idea of Noster. So we started like fundamentally at just using the outbox model, you know? So even if you publish to your own relays, Wisp can find those notes. And what's also cool about that is it actually makes it faster because when I'm going out and connecting to, let's say, I don't know, 70 relays, I can respond

to the user with the fastest relay instead of waiting for like one big one, which might be slow sometimes, fast others. So it actually even speeds up the experience, I would say.

So first of all, I don't think we said it. First of all, it's wisp.mobile is the website, and it's Android only. For now. You can get it as an APK. I think you can get on the Play Store. Can you get on the Play Store? We're in a beta on Play Store, so only people invited can join, but it should be on Play Store probably The like next coolest experience is getting it on Zap Store. I think it all kind of, you just feel like you live in the future.

You if you download through Zap Store, and you send them a nice fat Zap if you if you like the app, but so UTXO would you do you think is wisp for a mainstream user? Or is it for a power user? Or can it be for both?

I mean, I certainly think it can be for both. I mean, I would consider myself a power user and it's very rarely missing anything that I want, but I'm really trying to build it for just mass adoption. Normal user, not technical. Doesn't know anything about relays or cryptography or private keys. You know, they just sign up. There's money in there. They don't have to sign up for a lightning wallet.

Just just money can just go into their account right away. They don't know how any of it works and it all just works. So I'm really hoping that's the case, but I don't know, time will tell, but that is my goal at least is to make it appealing to just any Twitter, Instagram user, Twitch user, anything like that. Makes sense to me. So I on that note, I really like so we a prime will be integrated spark wallet. I saw you chose the same route.

It makes I mean, it makes the lightning onboarding super easy. Yeah, and straightforward. And you have full Zap support full on chain support. User doesn't have to manage liquidity. User doesn't have to have Bitcoin or receive Bitcoin. The backups are interoperable. So you can take a seed created in Primal and just put it into

Wisp, which is really cool and vice versa. You made a decision that we had disagreement with on the Primal team and we went the opposite direction, which is you encrypt you you give the user the option to encrypt their seed with their NSEC and then back it up to relays.

So all they need is their NSEC. And as long as they have their NSEC, they also back up their wallet, which by the way, I love that. If you can tell which side of the disagreement I was in Primal HQ, I think that is such a great UX. So kudos on that. Yeah, thanks. And actually, credit goes to the Daniel, who is the one who built that. Actually with like, even though WISP shows you, Hey, you should do that. We back it up anyway. It just happens automatically.

And this has already saved a few users from losing their money. Of course it was like, you know, 3 pennies or something. Yeah. But they said, they're like, oh man, I forgot to click on this. And I was like, oh, don't worry about it. You know, it's already on all the relays. Yeah. And the cool part there, a handy feature.

The cool part there is I mean, obviously, like, it's great that they can't that it makes it much more difficult for them to lose their money. But just from like a UX point of view, it's really cool. Because what it means is like, if someone opens Whisp for their first time, and another wallet is doing this spec, then basically, all they do is paste in their NSEC, and then all of a sudden their wallet and all everything is all set up and already ready to go. It all comes in one.

That feels really smart to me. What do you say to the haters about Spark?

Well, the first thing I would say is Noster Zaps, come on, man. Like even the biggest accounts are not making money on Zaps. There's nothing. You could lose that money and it'll be totally fine. I think if you're comparing it to a custodian, because here's the truth, 90% or whatever of Nosser is using a custodian, if it's not Spark, it's actually harder for Spark to rug. I'm not saying they can't rug, they can absolutely, but it's harder for them to do it than

a provider. Like I'll just pick on myself, like node lists, like let's say I was trying to run it. Like I could rug it way easier than Spark could. So that's why, but of course I don't keep any real money in there. Like whatever that amount is for you, 10, $20, whatever, withdraw it to your own node, withdraw it on chain. Just keep your fun play Noster money on there, throw your pennies around and don't worry about things like that. They're, they're much more important things to worry about. It's spending cash. It's how much, I mean, I don't know if it's good for this generation, but it's like how much cash you put in your back pocket when you go out at night And, you know, you might get mugged on the street. I've that in some cities, that's probably more likely than a spark rug, but it's spending cash. You should think of it that way. And then the other piece is the privacy piece,

which I don't know how you're handling zaps, but in our case, it's, you know, Primal and Spark have insight into your transaction history. You know, I think for Nostril specifically, most zaps are most zaps are public zaps. So you're not actually losing real privacy there. Obviously, it could be more private. It could also be way less private. But it's an interesting trade off balance. And I think it's just it just works really well today. So we'll see if something better works in the future.

I'll say for primal at least we would switch. I think you'd probably say the same. Yeah. And I think when it comes to like, to privacy, like it's absolutely, it's not a privacy tool by any means. It's in fact, it's sort of designed for the opposite of that. Like we want to show our zaps on Noster and publish notes about it. So in this case, like using it just for a Noster Zap wallet, I think like trading off privacy is the right thing to trade off in this case.

Yeah. Yeah. It's just a really cool onboarding tool. You so you did something So I figure the structure, the general structure of Freaks that I'm gonna go with here and UTXO for that matter is we're gonna talk about the details of WISP, and then I wanna go higher level with UTXO because I think he thinks about things interestingly. You made a really wild out there decision and you've changed the name of Zaps to send money and you've denominated them in dollars. Defend yourself.

All right. Well, the first thing I'll say is when you sign in with Amber or a signer, you will never see that. Okay. No one's That's your mainstream hurdle? Basically.

Yeah. I don't think any normie is gonna go on Google Play and then like, go download Amber. Like there's just no way they're gonna do that. So only people who sign up for like a brand new NSEC are gonna see that. But I think it makes, I don't know. This is my thesis is that a lot of people hate Bitcoin. They see Bitcoin and they're like, oh, it's crypto, Donald Trump or like whatever. And then they just run away or they think it's a big crypto

scam that we're running with this app. So that's my thesis. I don't know. Maybe it's right, maybe it's wrong. We're about to find out. So that was my big decision for doing it. And I don't see the problem at all. It's not like I'm using stable coins or anything. I'm just literally doing a conversion rate. That's literally all I've done. She's changing the label, but you'd be surprised, man. So like just quickly on that on West, here's another controversial thing I did for Sats.

I used the B symbol. Okay. I didn't use the lightning symbol because lightning is not Sats. Like lightning is lightning or Zaps, but it's not Sats. That's not a unit. So I was like, at least Bitcoin is a unit. And people are like, I'm never downloading WISP. You are using the I Bitcoin hate the Bitcoin logo. It's like, oh my God. Some people are out of their minds, man. But anyway, yeah. Yeah. I mean, to be clear, I I'm I like the send money experiment.

It should be interesting to see how it plays out. I don't think this I don't think it's necessarily a bad decision. I think it's kind of clever that you make it a default on basically fresh onboarding. I think that differentiates people decently. Well, I think it's a very like low lift way of differentiating a power user versus a new normie. I mean, I think there should be more experimentation on

these little things, these light touch things that actually do mean a lot to a new user as they come in. I think the biggest confusion you might be present with is if Bitcoin goes up or down significantly, which it tends to do. It has a history of doing that. And I know from example, the Samurai developers, basically, they had so many support requests

for like, I had $50 in my wallet, and now I have $20 in my wallet, that they just removed dollars altogether. They were like what you know, most wallets, even if you default to Bitcoin, you still show the dollar amount. And even in that situation, you have issues. So there's always like UX issues around it. But just something in terms of messaging to users, you know, you have Bitcoin in here. So this is, you know, your your 10¢ might be worth 50¢, your 50¢ might be worth 25¢,

You could proactively get around some confusion. But generally,

I love the idea of send money. It's like nor it just normalizes Bitcoin. Bitcoin is the best money. I'm just sending money to someone. I'm receiving money from someone. I think about it most most people think about in dollars, even the most diehard Bitcoiners are constantly thinking about the conversion rate. I start every episode with it. You know, that that is probably the more useful number. You also probably I think it probably pushes zaps up, which is

something to think about. Because right now, it's like, okay, you like, you don't think about you send 111 satch like I send so much. But like you sent them less than a dime. Exactly. Honest. I am normie mode is not released yet. That's gonna be when Google Play is approved, it's gonna be released but I'm running that build right now for myself. And honestly, can see it. Like if I'm gonna zap you 21¢, the, or 21 stats, the exchange rate today is 1.5¢. Like that's actually,

I feel kind of like I'm insulting somebody. It's a fun thing. You're flipping them a penny. Imagine if you walk past a homeless person or no, even worse, a musician or something, he's playing a beautiful song. You walk up and you just super confidently, by the way, you just flick him a penny. Massive disrespect. Yeah, exactly. For me personally, it has increased my Zap amounts because, yeah, it's too low. When you look at it in pennies, it's too low, man. It's offensive.

Just to me, just to me, I'm not saying other people it's offensive. Okay. I'm just saying for me, I feel bad when it looks like a penny. Yeah. But in stats form, it's not offensive. Like if someone sends me 21 stats with like a salute emoji, I'm like, wow, respect. Yeah, absolutely. Cause that's a real money, you know, like a penny is just totally worthless.

Yeah. It's interesting. It's a let us know. I think there's a bunch of us that are actually interested in the experiment. So as it unfolds, I'm sure you will update us on Noster, but, I'm pretty interested. And I will say when the build comes out, I will, I'll create a fresh NSEC just to,

can I if I'm a power user, assume in the settings, I can just toggle back and forth? Right? Yeah. Okay. So I'll just do that. I I would like to live on the normie send money route for a little bit and see what happens. Okay. Next next item on the agenda

that doesn't exist is we got into a little bit of a tiff about the follower counts. Think. How do you feel about follower counts? That's my question for you. Yeah. I mean, I don't. The number one thing is there's literally no possible way to get accurate count. It is not possible. So no matter who tries and how you calculate it, everyone's gonna have different numbers and agree like what is like, what even is a follower? You know, like if What is a follower?

What if my let's here's a really real example, right? Like maybe I want my relay to always pull your notes and I just put a like throwaway NPUB to always follow Odell's thing and pull it into my relay. Like, is that a user? Is that a follower? Yes. Okay. Like me personally, I kinda think it has to be a human. But who set that up? Who set up the that it has to be a human? No. No. No. Like, did a did a computer do that all by himself or did a did a human set up that? Human

set up that. A human set it up. I mean, these are maybe questions for the philosophers, man, but like the way it it's, it's really, it's really tough, man. I mean, I don't know. Don't know the exact correct answer. I don't pretend to know the right answer either. I mean, so this goes I think there's a couple intertwined aspects here. Right? Follower counts, like what users see, engagements. Right? So like likes and reposts and stuff. And then also just like total network user metrics.

And because Noster is an open network, this is the first time, really, like the real first time at scale where different front ends, different apps can interpret all that data in different ways. Right? And it's and so it's it's open to interpretation in a big way. While in closed tech land, like on TikTok, how do they count followers? You know? But I mean, they no one knows. And it is also a bullshit metric. There's no absolute number.

It doesn't exist even in central media, you know, centralized corp corporate social media land, the idea of an objective follower account. So then the question I think becomes, okay, who is the user and what is most useful to them? And I I think that's kind of how you have to go from it. So I think you had some really interesting ideas around that. So how, like, how are you thinking about that? So for me, when I even think about follower counts or stats in general. Yeah.

I think a huge purpose of stats, especially like for big companies is to like blow up their valuations or to like look better, you know? But for, for Noster, I mean, there are businesses like, okay, Primal wants to show good numbers. They're a business. Right. But maybe like an open source project would want something else would maybe want something that's more realistic or more filtered.

I'm not really sure. But for me, I think where follower count is actually useful and what we've done in WISP is only show followers that are in your network. The reason for this, it helps me find people who I probably should follow because other people in my network also follow them. It's not really about account. It's about how, like, sure I should be that this is going be a good follow-up. So it's people you follow, it's people you follow, who follow people that follow you.

People you follow and who they follow that follows this other person. The person that follows me. Sure. Yeah. So if you follow nobody, you would get nobody. That's right. That's right. And it will scale. Like, let's say you follow 10 people, you prob your extended network will probably be like a 100 people. What? Cause they follow an average 10 people each. Right. And there would be overlap and dedupe. Is this the view you show? If I go to your profile from my account,

Is that the follower count that shows your network, not my network? It shows your network. So it's so it's Odell. How many people? So it's people that follow you that I follow? Yes. Or they follow? Yes. It's relative to you. It's not like a global state. It's always relative to people If looking at I go to your account, it's showing something different than if Pablo goes to your account. Yes.

That's pretty cool. I like that. Yeah. So it's that way it's more personalized. It's actually like useful to the user. It's not just like a ego number or something. It's actually just helping me make a better feed, make a better decision. But I, you know, maybe that's not even a follower account. That sounds to me more like a reputation score.

I mean, it could be what people will say to that is that just because I follow you doesn't mean I'm trying to give you plus reps. You know, like, I might think you're a total dick, but it does. There's plenty of there's ways for you to, to track what someone's saying without following them if you don't want to. That's just lazy. I think most of the time in Nosterland, maybe that's not the case on centralized,

like the corporate alternatives. But I think in Nosterland, if you follow someone like it's pretty, it's like, don't take it as a full on endorsement. Like they shouldn't be like watching your children or like, I don't even know, like hiring them for a job or something. But there's at least a slight nod that I'm, you know, there's a mutual respect. That's why I'm following them. But maybe at least the content is is somewhat quality. Like, otherwise, I wouldn't follow.

Yeah. Building like a web of trust here. That's I mean, the reason I bring that up, though, is because like, oh, is it a reputation scores of follower counts? Because I think that's very useful. And I could see a world obviously, I'm been the most focused on primal, I could see the world where that is shown under what we show as follower count. But when we think about follower count, it is a direct one to one comparison to what X or Facebook or TikTok or Instagram consider a follower count.

And I do think there's a element to you go for the upper bound with that number to try and fake it till you make it get people into Noster. Because that's what they're doing. Like, I mean, to the idea of normies, right? It's like they're used to the upper bound x gives you the upper bound. Facebook gives you the upper bound tick tock gives you the upper bound. So if it is a direct one to one comparison, we're always gonna be on a back foot.

Yeah. I mean, bring up a really good point, man. And like, it's absolutely true. But I guess what really what really gets me though, is that when I put out that the web of trust relay, it was like a year and a half ago or something. I remember it specifically. So Primal was out. I had something like 9,000 followers or something Primal. And then all these bots are trying to break my relay with web trust. And then like four days later, have 17,000 followers. So like,

know that they're just end pubs that just got created and then thrown away. Right. Human. So just, I guess to me, it's just like, I just I know how fake the number is. Right? And it bugs me. Not necessarily fake. It's just measuring something different. Right. I think it's I like, I honestly think it's defensible. That's why I'm saying, I think it says there's two different pieces there. I think that if the question is, okay, I want to do growth analytics on Noster and try and improve it,

improve its adoption and retention, I think retention is something that we have a lot of problem with more. It's like, it's even worse than just a straight adoption because if someone's first touch is bad, the second touch is so much harder to get. I think the upper bound is pretty much useless to you. And

also the highly con the very conservative bound is also probably useless. And what is helpful is somewhere in the middle. And my guess is when you think about, you know, the big tech social media, that's probably how they're thinking about it too. It's like to their shareholders, they do the upper bound number. And then internally, like if they're actually trying to do productive, pragmatic growth statistics and stuff, it's somewhere in the middle. But the lower bound also, I think hurts us.

Because it's like, you're you're, you're heavily discounting a large portion of people like I do believe that 90% of people are lurkers or something. And there's really there's really no way to algorithmically remove that. And so I do like your setup where it's not trying to do either of those. It's just like, okay. It's it's in network, basically reputation, but I like I like that as a concept. I don't know. It's complicated. And there's no obvious answer here.

Yeah. And I guess just the really big thing is that like, you know, I whatever follower account you want, I could just make a bot to give you that number, you know? So I feel like the the web of trust or like some kind of AI inference or some like, you need some number, especially because at least on Twitter and Instagram, there's a cost to signing up. Like you need an email address or a phone number or some sort of friction, but an MPUB, I can literally make a million MPUBs in ten seconds

with no cost and three lines of code. The accounts are way cheaper on Noster, so it's, I don't know, man. To be fair, we do do some limited, like if you create, if you do like 10,000 at once, we we do some limited scraping off the top, but it's mostly upper bound. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I it's just a theory, and there's no way to prove it, and that's the fucked up part. But when TikTok

was starting off, like, I wouldn't be surprised if they had like a hard coded your follower count increases by 1% every day. Yeah, you know, there was people that were like posting like beard chugging videos, they're like, I got a million followers. And if Noster doesn't exist in a vacuum. You

kinda have to play the game. I think I I wanna see more game players in Noster. We don't have enough. And that's why I respect Wisps game because I it's good to have more game players that are like willing to like actually

fight off the fight with the status quo. Like you, it's like being a pacifist and going to war is kind of how I think about it. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And look, like you did convince me. So Noster archives, another product, I know we didn't get into this, but Noster archives is like the analytics site that I built and we're way more relaxed with the filters on that. So like, you know, the counts will be semi similar to Primal.

You'll see on follow accounts or daily active users. Like, we're just looking for at least one signal. Like, maybe you lurk, but you got if you just like something, that's enough. You know? But if you truly just lurk They might not even have it. They might not even have an MPUB. Like, that's like, isn't the idea of a user and this is I think part of the problem with Bitcoin is it had way too many philosophers came into Bitcoin. So I'm not trying to be a Nostril philosopher.

But the idea of a user with Nostril does is a very blurred line because the concept of user really comes from centralized walled gardens. Right? And so I've made mostly in jest in the past. Every human is an active user of Noster because they can always read a note without permission. Like they don't need to sign in. They period they don't need to sign in. So and I know this for a fact, because I, you, I have many haters.

I don't know if the freaks are aware. But there's a there's a lot of people that hate me. And they just look at my post at primal.net/odell. Like they don't have a Nostrad account. They hate Nostrad. But they know what I'm posting. And I know because when every once in a while, it pops off, and there's screenshots that get circulated around. And then all the people that are looking at the screenshots, they're obviously, they don't have MPUBs. So it does blur the lines. Like, what what is a user?

Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I I also don't know, man. This is definitely a question for the philosophers. We're gonna get Gigi in here to talk about it, man. Gigi is one of our best philosophers. He's a he's a practical philosopher. But it does make I don't know. It it makes me it's just something to think about. Like, I do think, you know, every good meme is based on reality.

There we do not have that many users of Noster. And it's probably better for us to be realistic about that and try and grow the number. But then also sometimes I just feel like the community or whatever goes in the opposite direction a little bit too hard. And like, I mean, I do have some thoughts on this is like, a lot of times, if you ask the,

all the people who are left on Noster is this is like survivorship bias, right? It's like most of the people who tried Noster have left, like probably 98, 97% of all people who tried Noster, like never came back. And all the people who really liked Noster stayed and think that it's fine. Like, and of course they do because they're the only ones left. All the just weirdos who liked it stayed.

But if we want those 97% of people who didn't stay, we need a different product for them or different experience so that next time they will stay. What do you get from like, I mean, so we met each other through the Bitcoin community, like, obviously, we've been in the Bitcoin community for a while. What do you take from like, there's is not even a it's not even that the Bitcoin community didn't adopt Noster and mass or that a portion of the Bitcoin community is ambivalent to Noster.

It's like there's like 40 to 50% of at least a Bitcoin x community that fucking hates Noster. Where do you think that comes from? Is that solvable? Or is that just you just say it is what it is and that's done now? I don't know, these are just guesses and thoughts is that they're trying to defend their

follower counts or like the accounts that they built up on Twitter and like Noster sort of threatens that. Even though that's so stupid because if you just come to Noster, everyone's gonna follow you there. Like, what are you talking about? You know? Like, I don't know. Do you lose your followers Odell when you came over on Noster? Percent. Yeah. Nobody follows you on Oscar. It's true. No, no. I mean, like, I think I think, quote unquote, reach is definitely diminished. Of course.

I think because you don't get the mainstreams. But what's cool about Noster is the ride or dies, right? It's where the ride or dies dwell without permission. And it's already a massive success in that regard. The question is, does it ever get velocity? I think is the is the better question. And I do think it's funny with Noster that but but that's solvable by you don't have to go like full Odell and delete your fucking,

you know, massive x account. You can keep that. And you can still use Noster for different things. I think it's a little bit disappointing. A lot of people say that there's too much Bitcoin stuff on Noster. And as a result, I've tried to go out of my safety zone, which is like usually I historically, X was my only social media, And I only talked about Bitcoin.

And because I'm such a quote unquote, large account on Noster, I felt compelled to like, you know, here's a blurred picture of my children or whatever, you know, like here, I have other hobbies, like, here's the gun I carry, you know, I'm trying to like, spread the message. But also at the same time, it's frustrating, because if there's 20 more Bitcoiners,

like high value Bitcoiners that start using Noster actively, it would be way more useful to me. Like there's not that I need more Bitcoin content. But it's not necessarily that many people. It doesn't have to be 10,000 people. There's like a select 5,100 people that if they started using Noster even infrequently, it would be be much better experience for me. Yeah, I agree. And even there's there's a bunch of Bitcoiners who are like primarily on x, and then they occasionally

will come like safety and just came the other day and posted on Noster, you know, like, yeah, why don't you just always post on Noster bro? Like, why is it just like once a year? Like, what are you doing? And so if just a few more of those guys came to Noster or just like, I don't know. Have you ever heard them articulate why they don't like Noster? Like a specific reason? Or they're just like, oh, it's just stupid and it's gonna die even though it never dies?

I mean, that's what I'm trying to, I know there's, and I'll try and stay humble here, that I was a little, like, some of the blame probably comes to me because I was a little aggressive in the earlier days of Noster. And so there's, there's a group of people that hate me, so they hate Noster. And then there's, That's the key. That's the keys. But yeah, I don't pretend to know all the answers. I mean, with primal, we're just trying to build a very,

you know, user forward app that is takes reasonable trade offs. Because look, at the end of the day, like these people use X, there's a shit ton of fucking trade offs that they're taking. And there's there's probably like a happy middle ground. And I respect the fact that a lot of people like their first touch was disastrous, and then they just never came back. Yeah. And I mean, you know, fair enough, especially years ago when we're just like getting started. We have like astral.ninja

or whatever like, yeah. Okay. That that was super made my key, by the way. On Astral? It hasn't been compromised yet. Any day now. I just I think my old account was Astral, but then I I made it in browser. I made it in browser live on a dispatch. And I've been using it ever since. That's what I think is so funny. Like people like, Oh, you guys use Amber, like, blah, blah, blah. It's like, okay. Like, I just raw dog this NSEC all over the place.

And one day, it'll probably get compromised. And I'll send out a post being like, I got compromised. And then I'll signal next to UTXO GG, Pablo, a couple other people in my personal web of trust. And they'll be like Odell got hacked, because he's raw doggies and sec everywhere. And this is his new and sec. And then there we just solved key rotation. Like it's not really that big of a deal.

Exactly. Was just saying the same thing. Was getting into an argument with someone on Oscar about this. Look at American huddle. Many Twitter accounts did that guy have? Think he got to know. Yeah. And whatever, he got his followers back every single time. And most people are also not American hodl. They have like 80 friends or

200 followers or whatever. You'll get them back. It's not that serious to lose a key. I would just say when it comes to like, you know, raw dogging insects, the the main way you'll get screwed is by accidentally pasting it somewhere else. It's the handling of the key material. Yeah. It's not really the app. It's not like the app that's yeah. It's in your clipboard and then you know,

it to Facebook or something. I am yeah, I don't think it's I think that's a funny one. Just like from a practical standpoint. Yeah. And it's always just a private web of trust. You know, it's like, oh, a signal message comes in from American HODL. He's like, I made another I made another Twitter account. Okay. What else do we wanna talk about? I want to talk about I saw you playing around with like the AI tools you have. First of all, with why

when iOS, if you really want the norm, if you want the Bitcoin Twitter influencers to use it, they're going to need an iOS app. Yep. It's it's true. It's true that just stay tuned for maybe some news on that. Maybe not. We'll see. But I'm, I am very aware that normies like iOS. I am not oblivious to that. You should make the iOS one should be send money only. There's no way to Exactly. Get into Bitcoin Yeah. They want their Bitcoin mode for iOS.

So AI tools, how are you thinking about them? To me? That's like the new rabbit hole. I'm like fascinated by it. Oh yeah. I'm, I'm super, I'm getting so deep into like the local AI and setting up your own rigs and doing this kind of thing right now. Oh, AI is, AI is crazy, man. Like I'm, I don't know. I think a lot of people like there's call it like slop or, oh, it's just like, know, there's a lot of slop. Of course there's a lot of slop for sure. But it is slop too.

Yeah. A lot of human slop. I would say for coding it's, it is legit, man. Like it actually, you know, like I am a coder. Okay. I spent like twenty years learning to code. Okay. And this thing runs circles around me. It makes me look like a terrible dev. And that's okay. I just had to like, go of that identity. You know, I'm just, that's okay. The robot beat me. So now I have to wield the robot, you know, like that's all there is to it. So I think,

I don't think AI is a bunch of slob, especially for coding. Like I think Claude is absolutely insane. That's sort of like my high level thoughts, but really what I'm super excited about is the open source models that are coming out now, man. Like Quen 3.6 is legitimately a good model. Like if you, I know, I know my little bot that I made this morning has like, some bugs a little retarded, but like completely retarded. Yeah. It's completely retarded.

Quan 3.6 can run open claw, like, and do web searches and pretty much do everything other than coding. And you can run that on pretty cheap hardware today. What are you are you running in locally? That bot? Yeah. Locally. Yeah. It's all local. It's on my GPU server. What is it running on? What is it running on? So I have four thirty ninety RTX GPUs and then they're, it's served up with VLLM. It's like a, yeah, like a server software and yeah, it can handle something What does that cost?

Well, if you wanted to buy it today, it'll cost a lot. But the thing is I, I have it Is as a that like $10,000 or is what is it? I think each RTX is probably like $3,000 right now. So just GPU is probably like ten to twelve thousand fifteen k build. Yeah. Something like that. But I built this like three years ago, and it was way cheaper. I got those GPUs for, $600. That's wild.

Yeah. So they're way cheaper. And it's even the RAM. Like, I'm pretty sure I spent, like, $200 on RAM. The RAM I have now is, like, $2. Physical commodities. Yeah. But what I will say though, is like, I set it up to run as a server so that, you know, dozens of people on Noster can all use it. If you just wanna use it for yourself, you do not need to build like that. You just need one GPU. This is,

this is quench three, six. I thought, I mean, the latest one I saw was three, five. Did they just come out with three, six? They just came out with 36. Yeah. And it's a, it's a mixture of experts. So it runs way smaller. It, like most of the responses are on 3,000,000,000 parameters, which is like super small and fast, but it's still really smart. Yeah. They, I mean, I thought it was kind of cool with your bot that

you just like it just understands Noster. So you just pay it with Zaps, and then it and then it proceeds. You start to see, like, the real like, it's all coming together. Right? It's like you got the masterpiece, you got the Bitcoin piece, you have the open source AI piece, and they just really complement each other really, really well. Yep. Does it make you more bullish on master?

I mean, I hope my actions speak harder than my words on how bullish I am on Noster, man. Like I am mega bullish. Well, here's what I, I don't know what, how other people are gonna perceive Noster. And it's, at the end of the day, this is network effect technology, right? I can be bullish all I want. If other people don't adopt it, then it doesn't matter. But I just legitimately just like looking out at the world and like social and communications, like I just can't see it's

so good, man. There's just, there's nothing that comes close to as good as Nostril is. And I just can't believe that people don't see it. Yeah, we have I mean, we have everything except the people. I just that one key part. I so I mean, do you use the frontier models to the proprietary top of line, America made NSA tech four seven. Absolutely.

The only reason whisp is good is because Claude is good. That's literally So I mean, the gap between that and the whatever quint three, or I don't know what the Google's recent open source model is actually pretty good. Yeah. Gemma four. Yeah. Gemma four. The gap is still fucking huge. Yeah. It's not it's not even close, man. But for coding, it's not, but for like chatbot, let's say like chat GPT, just want to like talk to it, research stuff. It actually is comparable now, man.

I really hate the, like the reply, spam bot stuff. Like who do they think they are? Like, it's obvious what's going on there. And they must be spending a bunch of money unless they're running local models. They're running local models for a fact. The Bitcoin libertarian. Do you know who I'm talking about? The guy who's like responding with like in Spanish too, he's got an English one and a Spanish one that responds every one of my posts. Yep. Bitcoin libertarian was a base truth, a primal diet,

or there's all sorts of them. But my primal diet, what is that he just responds to every one of my posts being like, this didn't discuss meat. It's like, bro. It's so fucking stupid. But my It's gonna get worse. My end spam model catches all of those, man. You don't see any that one. About let's talk about the end spam. So this runs locally on a relay and it's a very, very lightweight local model. Right? It runs on your phone. Oh, so it runs on the app level. So is it running on,

if I'm running Wisp, it's just running on my Android device? Yep. It runs on your Android device and it, so like, I also use it on my Relay, you can use it anywhere, but Wisp, like, you don't have to use my Relay to take advantage of it. Your device will look at anybody who I don't follow already. It will check, hey, is this a bot? So it's not like checking every single note. About like the good bots? There are good bots out there. Yeah, like Recbot?

Yeah. Rec bots. One of my favorite bots is how I know the price you run that. I mean, I've been trying to build out like that Citadel wire news bot. Like, is it getting caught up in ends if people's end spams? No. So end spam only looks at replies and notifications.

If you're just posting to your feed, it doesn't check. Yeah. See that. I like, I it's an open protocol, so I can't stop you from doing whatever you want. And ultimately, you know, give the users more tools so they can consume how they want. But if you're listening to this, and you have like a low energy fucking reply bot, just like fucking turn the thing off. I don't think you're doing anybody favors. And it's just hilarious as an open protocol, because it's like,

I saw someone today. So the Bitcoin libertarian guy, like bot, controlled by a human responded in Spanish and English to me. And then I guess the Spanish version got auto translated in amethyst. So then someone from amethyst responded to the auto translated one in English, which then responded back in Spanish.

And it was just like, it was just a funny example of open protocols, right, where he has an English bot and a Spanish bot, but you see them both as English because you have auto translate on. And then the humans replying back asking questions to this fucking retarded bot. But the ones that like actually post to direct feeds, I think are

a little bit more interesting to me. Like, I think I don't know, I think where we're going everyone, most people will have, you know, like the robot assistant of varying levels, you know, some people will have like the big tech surveilled and controlled one other people have more freedom, focused setups. But like, if you need a chatbot interface, like, it's probably not going to be in the replies, unless it's, you know, I guess dunking on someone where you want it to be a public back and forth.

And so done right, that could work. But just like the random replies thing, don't think will ever really be a thing. Anyway, as long winded, but the bots that own their own feed, right? So like wrecked bot, for instance, which I think is like a low lift perfect example of the power here. It's a real I I think it's real advantage of Noster. I don't I don't know how it actually plays out. But like anyone who's playing with these things, if you want it to be an x bot,

or a Facebook bot, or TikTok bot or something, You know, you have a permissioned API, it might cost you a shit ton of money, you probably have to KYC to use it, you'll have all these different random errors, because you have a centralized dependency, the fact that you can just, you know, tell your bot to spin up an NSEC,

and then have like, you there's no API requirements, you just generate a fucking NSEC, can generate infinite NSEC's, and can just broadcast to the fucking world in a relatively robust way with not you having to deal with no back end whatsoever, is amazing. And I just I feel like that could be fucking huge. I just don't know how it actually plays out in practice.

Yeah. I don't know either. And and, you know, I could tell you a cool story actually about wreck boss. You know how, like, whenever the price really spikes, it just goes crazy. And there's like tons of messages. So most of the big relays will rate limit you, you know, they don't let you post 30 messages in ten seconds. So that kept happening to rec bot. So what's also cool about Nasser is like, okay, I'm getting rate limited by these relays. I just made my own relay

I published all my notes there and it has, and nobody can stop me. Now everybody can get RecBot's notes, even though like the rate limits are totally legit. You know, I put rate limits on my Yeah. Need to do the primal relay white listed rec bot. Okay. Nice. We believe in all the wreckage just flowing. Good. Thank you. But yeah, it's just all these layers, you know, it's just so unstoppable. But the problem is that nobody

actually cares about that. That's that can't be like our selling point to people because nobody is But getting I but I what I think it is is not Look, I don't pretend like citadel wires like this wonderful gift to man to man. I am trying. I'm playing around with these things because that's how I learned best. And also, like, I would like a very condensed, high signal, no bullshit news news service, basically, without all the engagement bait. Like, as as as the leader of my family,

as, you know, running tons of projects and and businesses in the space, like I need to be up to date on what's going on without all the bullshit. And so I'm building something that I want to see myself. So it's not a waste of time, and I'm trying to learn. But my point is, is the ability for someone to create a very good,

a very useful automated service is not the feature. The feature is when someone does, I think when someone actually cracks the nut and like has something that is actually very useful to a large amount of people, it could be the thing that drives them into Noster. Think part of what I've been playing around with CitadelWire is for the normies, they can just go to citadelwire.com, which is effectively a Noster app. It's like a Noster web app that only shows one account.

Like, that's what it is. Like, core of it is just a Noster note. And then eventually, then they might move in. Right? And so if I'm thinking about like, what is a major one? I don't know if you noticed, like, we almost we almost got the jet tracker guy. The guy who tracks all the rich people's jets. He had different accounts for each jet. And he got banned off of X for his Elon jet tracker. What a coincidence.

Was the only account that he got banned. And he started a Noster account. But why do I bring this up? I bring this up because he also has a website. And so it's someone who creates something like that, where a million people are hitting his website and then 50,000 were realizing that on the back end is Nostril notes and when the website's down, they can just go interact and zap and comment on any of the notes in the background, I think. Long winded. Okay.

Yeah. I I didn't I didn't know that he's on. So he is posting on Noster, like, trackers are Noster Nodes? No. We we lost him. I think we lost him. Damn. Me let me do a quick search. Elon Jet tracker. Elon jet tracker. He was on Noster for a bit. Oh, yeah. Here. One year ago, I was posting about him. Nope. Well, we need to improve search too, but we had we had Elon's jet tracker on Nostrad for a bit for like a year or so. Here it is Three years ago.

But yeah, then we lost him. But I think that's a perfect example. Like, it's so random. You know, it's not something that you like, really think about. But like, I was getting like millions of views on people that just wanted to track where rich people were traveling, which is all public information. Right. Yeah, man. And I know like, so,

you know, I've been working on just like building WIS, but like, it's pretty much got all the features I want. Of course, like every app needs maintenance and stuff, but most of my work that I see myself doing is on marketing and trying to reach out to like, let's say have you ever heard of kick.com?

Probably? Yeah. Yeah. Twitch competitor. Yeah. So the whole reason they were born is because Twitch keeps banning everybody all the time. You say, like Rumble. Yeah. Exactly. It's exactly that. Right? So but even on kick, even now people are getting banned from kick. And essentially they didn't solve anything. They just launched another service. Exactly. Now look, if to get banned on kick, you gotta be pretty degenerate man, but

Nosser actually offers a viable alternative to these guys where they literally finally cannot get banned. And like, they actually have a problem with getting banned. Normies who are talking about the sports ball game, they're never gonna get banned from Twitter. It's fine. But like some of these Twitch people, they have like tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people that wanna watch these super degen streams.

And Nosser is pretty much the only solution that they have, I think. But right now what they're doing is streaming over discord. Yeah. Why is it? Well, discord is very uncensored, man. Very uncensored. At least for now. I don't know if they're, if they did that KYC thing yet, but it's like, I'm out they after like Charlie Kirk's assassin was like groomed through discord. They started doing they're doing a bunch of KYC stuff, obviously, is completely centralized.

I mean, so like this one hits close to home, right? Because that was one of the main reasons we prioritized video streaming on Primal. It's so hard to break into that. I don't know. It's clearly a dope. Like, it's cool that if you broadcast on Propel,

Wisp has support for it. Nostril has support for it. Amethyst has support for it. Can just see it in whatever app you're using. That's obviously a massive advantage to us. I think Zaps and Stream are really fucking cool. Like, obviously, in the corporate world, we've seen, you know, YouTube super chats and whatever the Twitch version is, the kick version, they all tick tock version, like sending ice cream to each other. Like people love that shit. And

I think we can do that better than them. But it's so hard to break into. And to your example, I mean, Kik, like, didn't Kik like, pay a bunch of influencers, like $500,000 a pop switch? Oh, way more than that. Way more. Yeah. So you're gonna do that? No. I think I'll just say,

because most of these guys, they're only kick only because they're banned from the other ones. Right? But I can just reach out to these people and be like, hey, why don't you just add Noster to your stack? You're already doing YouTube and Twitch. Like just add Noster into your OBS or whatever, and broadcast to it. Like that, that's it. It's not much more. You'll make a little bit of money. It's no extra work.

But do you even know that Noster exists? They probably don't. Right. So at least like an attempt to do it, to do some outreach and like Now do you do you tell them do you to broadcast an Nostra? Do you tell them you should use wisp? Well, I'll probably in this case, tell them to use ZapStream because they can't broadcast from a wisp, but I'll explain that there's this whole audience of people who are willing to send you Bitcoin, that that's the benefit of why you should add.

You don't even have to monitor the chat or anything like just to get our content up, you know? So it's not just only no good radio streaming all the time and nobody else. Well, RHR has been doing it for like three years now. That's true, but it's a rare show, you know? It's a gem. It's a once a week. Yeah, I don't know. I I mean, maybe it doesn't take that much. Maybe it's just, you know, one or two

prolific people. I mean, I always joke around. It's like, if I don't, I'm like such a boomer with this these people, but like, I show speed, like started broadcasting on masters, the only one I know. Like, we'd easily get 100,000 users out of that shit. It totally matters in person.

And that's just like one example of one streamer. It could be Instagram Simps. It could be just Saifedean posting more. Like it could we just have to get the content creators who already have an audience and not even necessarily migrate it. Just add it. Just build it into your stack that Noster is also a place that you can publish that they know they can control. You know, that Twitter is never gonna demonetize or Noster is never gonna demonetize the way Twitter might, you know? Yeah.

I don't know. It's interesting. It's I don't know. Yeah. Network effect is a bitch. What about the piece that I do think like if you're just doing bare mirroring, it's like completely useless. I don't, I don't think it's obviously not as good as like actually engaging with chat and whatever, but there, I don't think it is useless to have, to have content like ready to go, even if it's just mirrored content, you know, you, you hop onto an author, it doesn't feel stale. It feels lively.

So then should we just do that without their consent? Should we just be scraping big accounts and just posting it if mirroring's fine? I mean, I'll tell you, sir sleepy does that a lot. He like reposts old movies or whatever. And I like watching it sometimes,

you know, I would, I think that is a good idea. I think people should do that. Like if there's a content creator that you like, and you wish their content was on Oscar, just put it on Oscar, you know, no one can stop you from doing it. So just do it. Is that person a user? It's just one user. See that the new account that's being mirrored is not a user, but there's one power user who has two accounts, but it's just one Okay. Fair enough.

Yeah. I mean, I think I don't know. I go back and forth on it. Mean, obviously, there's very useful people. Gleason was running Trump bot for a while. And it's like, okay, he's the president of The United States and he's like, shoot social posts, like, move markets. Be nice to even if he's not engaging, it'd be nice to I mean, I doubt he's engaging people on truth social either. He's not like replying in the comments being like, that's a great idea.

So like, his mirroring is great. He stopped doing that. So maybe I should be the change I want to see in the world. And do that. But I think for I don't know, a lot of them, it does feel stale. And maybe it feels less stale if someone does it without their permission. Like if I go and mirror Luke Gromans tweets to Noster, and it's like, I'm doing it. He's not

pretending we're beneath him. He just doesn't think of us. But if he is just whatever he tweets out, just automatically goes to Nasir, it feels like disrespect. I don't know. It feels you know what I mean? Does that make I do know there's and there's a limit, I guess of like, how famous the person is before it's acceptable. You know, like, of course the president do whatever you want. Right. But like if it's your boy or someone who's like trying to build their own business or something,

but I don't know, man, because it can't be stopped. Like all the mastodon bridges are basically doing that. Right? Well, let me let me use it as an example of one of my boys who I think cares about Nostrad, but uses both. Right? And that's Peony Lane. Peony Lane? Penney Lane? Penis Lane. I don't know. That's what I call the best best wine in the business. Right? If he was just blank mirroring his tweets,

like, it would be just complete disrespect. But instead he's he just lives two lives. He lives like an ex life and he lives or Lynn Alden is another example. Yep. Right. She has different posts that she posts on Noster. It was like when it's like the blatant, I'm just adding it as a field in my automatic post thing. It's just straight disrespect. I'm I'm not going to name names, but I can immediately think of like 10 people who are doing that. Like,

so my sense is that, but then I also look at their engagement they get on those posts and people do like those posts still, you know, and they still reply and they still zap and they still like it. Yeah. It's fascinating. So I think it's okay, man. It's not your cup of tea. That's totally fine. But I think a lot of people are into it still. As long as they log in and occasionally reply back or Occasionally reply back is the key. Yeah. Or at least see it, you know? Come on.

I mean, Greg Gee is another one. All the merchants, they live in both worlds. Soap miner. But they don't mean have- If you're running a business, you kind of just have to be on Twitter, right? I mean, yeah, you'd probably be on Tik TOK. Cause there's more people there. Yeah, absolutely. Like you got, you gotta make sales, man. This is not about purity. This is just about making money through different marketing channels.

Yeah, I will say Ben, Ben, the wine dealer, he should get credit for like actually using Noster consistently. But he does not get enough shit that he doesn't accept Bitcoin for his wine. On his website. It has to do with some regulations with shipping wine or whatever. Okay. We're not quite there yet. Don't know, you have anything else interesting to talk about? I've enjoyed this. Me too. My InSpan, Nelsa Archives, WISP. I mean, that's, that's pretty much the big things I'm working on right now.

Well, let's let's just the AI tools a little bit. Your flow on like your daily basis is a, you mentioned Claude, are you just, are you, you have a subscription or are you going through an API? How are you handling that?

I have both, like I have their max plan, but I still have $200 a month. Yeah. Yeah. 200 is 300 Canadian dollars. So is send money going to show Canadian dollars if you're in Canada or? If you pick it, you could pick whatever currency you want, but yeah, it's every currency. Okay. Sorry. Anyway, it should just be dollars. I think it's like the one Fiat to rule them all, but yeah, no, of course an American would say that. Okay. So it costs you 300

Canadian dollars to have your clawed max plan. So you have that. Yeah. So I have that, but it usually gets maxed out. So I also have the APIs and Codex like, so Codex is more like my secondary one. So usually how my flow goes is it like, it depends on the difficulty of the task, but a lot of times what I'll do is I'll use Claude in plan mode. So get Claude to make a really good plan, review all the code base or whatever. And then I'll use a cheaper model like Codex or even my local Quinn

to actually implement the plan depending on the difficulty. So that's like one way I'm trying to like get around the limits because I'm not buying a second account. That's just way too much. Well, mean, now, like clawed max or whatever you're getting supposedly you're getting like $5,000 of value for your well, guess in Canadian dollars, it's like $10,000 $7,500 worth of value for your 300.

I honestly, they're like max subsidizing it. Yeah. Or even more, if I had to hire a developer and I was in a business where I did hire developers and I had to hire someone who outputted work as cleanly as Claude did, I'd be paying them $10.20, dollars 30,000 a month. I get it for $300 and they work all day. Like, that's insane. Yeah. I don't think that lasts. I think that's the interesting.

I think that's where it starts to get interesting. I'm kind of curious in your opinion, but like, I think the skill set here is like maximizing cost per output quality. And right now the line is blurred because you have these subsidized subscription models. So there's like a bunch of lazy people using this stuff. Or they're using this, they're not necessarily lazy people, but they're people using this in a lazy way. Because if you're getting $5,000 worth of token usage for $200

you're going to use it in a lazy way. But if you have to spend $5,000 on it, you're going to have to figure out a way more efficient way of handling it. And that's the hardest part right now. And that will be the hardest part. That's the skill, I think. Yeah. It's more like about product development, like having a good product that you're working towards, not just like, Oh, am I just dicking around? Cause this is fun and whatever I'll experiments.

Like if your experiment costs money, then you probably wouldn't be doing it. But yeah, and I could tell you like too, so take my rig, for example, let's say you wanted, you're like, no, I wanna do local AI and this and that. Okay, you could spend $15 on this rig to have a bot that's 30 times more retarded than Claude. And how long would it take you to break even if you were just bought Claude?

Like Claude is like seven, eight years. It would have taken you break even with this terrible rig. Obviously you should just buy Claude. And especially if you're doing open source work, you know, like I have no need for privacy when I'm building WISP. All that code is published. I need zero privacy from my LLM to build this stuff. It's not like you're not making a privacy trade off at all.

Yeah, this is already going to be public. It's going to be a public release. Yeah, I think particularly if you're trying to go for like the higher end open source models, like that is a luxury good, like if you're buying hardware for that right now, you know, if you have particularly very optic sensitive situation, like it makes sense, because you're doing it strictly for the privacy reasons. But do not delude yourself into thinking that you're saving money,

going the local route right now. And then there's a separate piece where it's like, the small light stuff, like what you're doing on the phone for spam, already capable enough, super interesting. But if you think like there's so many just hype people, right? That are like, oh, like you download the latest Chinese open source model. And it's like, you can get you're you're getting

Opus four seven qualities. Like, you're you're not you're not even getting fucking close. And then you're added. You're in negative disadvantage to other people, which is why I think like the like the PPQ concepts are really is really cool, or like Venice. I think like that concept is really cool, where you have many different models you can choose from. You're not doing KYC, you're paying for it on a paper use. Yes, you're giving up privacy if you're hitting

the walled garden models, but there's a balancing act there. There's like, okay, I use local for some things I use and to end encrypted for other things. And then I use, you know, Claude for heavy lifting stuff that maybe doesn't have as much privacy concerns. There's like a balancing act that people have to find. Yeah. And also a big part of it is how you're actually using the LLMs. Like sure. Maybe you use some of these privacy focused services and they didn't collect your identity, but maybe

in the course of doing your development, you gave them your database credentials or your NSEC or something, you know, like that is still vulnerable to exploits. And I think that just happened the other day, right? Lovable got hacked and all these, like all everyone's chat history got leaked. And so that can still happen even on privacy focused ones. It's just that your identity is not associated. But there's a huge way. Lovable, I mean,

definitely didn't pitch itself as a privacy. Like it was keeping all the records in the cloud and shit. And that's why it got taken down. I mean, that's why it got hit. Yeah, totally. But I mean, of course, like Claude is keeping this and Gemini and all The end points are the end points are like, obvious, it's like a VPN trust model. Right? So you're trusting them. Right? But like with PPQ, like, I don't think Matt Alborg is keeping logs. Of course not. Lovable.

I mean, it's not just because I think he's a good guy with high integrity and a lot of proof of work in the space, which he is. It's because I also think he's smart enough to realize that it adds extra liability onto his business and doesn't doesn't want to lie to the user and do it. But you are trusting him to do that. The endpoint but lovable, like that was one of their features was like,

we save all your shit like telegram does. And so it's like, you got good UX. But then the endpoint, obviously, depending on what inputs you're putting into it, is gonna figure out who you are. I mean, I, I think Anthropic came out and said, like, they named a specific

Chinese researcher that was using it to train his I forget which open source model it was. And like, he was using one of the API access points without providing his identity, but like the things he was uploading, they've like figured it out pretty quickly who the guy was. Yeah. It is wild times. And the thing is too, is like these models,

I don't think they're trying to be malicious, but they do things like you tell them, okay, you can't read my .env file. So they're like, oh, I'm blocked. Let me try another way. And then they'll output it to the terminal. And they're like, Okay, got it. So no matter how hard you try, if you're using these cloud models, man, they're gonna get your database, like the big model endpoints, they're gonna get all of that data. So just be careful out there, freaks.

Yeah. I don't know. It's it's it very much feels like the wild west, which is what I find interesting about it. How do you think about, I guess I should ask you about the Southern Chime. Do you have a hard stop? Nope.

Okay. Might regret saying that. Okay. We're gonna continue. How do you feel about like next five years of this stuff? We're gonna see massive job loss. Like what it what are your current thoughts? And we're not gonna hold you to it because no one really knows what happens next. Yeah. Yeah. It's so hard to make such prediction because like, look how far AI came in just a couple of years, you know, it's actually insane, but I do strongly believe we are

sort of approaching a limit in terms of how smart the LLMs can get. And really like what scales now is maybe like how accurate it is that it's more consistently always giving you a good output, that it's faster and that it can get cheaper. But in terms of like how much smarter it can get, like, I'm sure it can get like a little bit smarter or maybe let's say two X smarter, but I don't think we're going to see like X smarter in five years.

I think that we're about to like, sort of hit a wall. Yeah. That's sort of how I see it. In terms of like

job loss, I don't I think it's like more job creation is there's going to be all these jobs for people to implement AI and nothing works. It's going be like everyone's working on Noster everywhere in the world because yeah, every company is like, Oh my God, we have to implement AI. And then they like, they try to implement it. They make all these new systems. It doesn't work. You need now you need security researchers and more developers and

yeah, I don't know. I don't think it's going to be like a big panacea. I think it's very useful and I think it's like going to be improving people's search and reporting and maybe like help you with your PowerPoint or whatever, but I don't see it as like mass layoff type of thing happening. That's That's yeah. Basically what I think right now. Really? Subject to change. I mean, I could definitely be wrong. Okay. I'm staying humble, but that's what I currently think. Yeah. I I mean,

I don't know. I mean, what, what I see in maybe, maybe this, I think startups are the first mover because they're the most likely to die. And particularly Bitcoin startups were already kind of operating pretty lean because their cost of capital was Bitcoin.

So like, will, you know, I will put out there that my bias is obviously companies that are led by Bitcoiners, not necessarily even Bitcoin companies, but companies that are led by Bitcoiners, which is what ten thirty one has exposure to, and what I have exposure to on a constant basis.

Those founders have always been more lean, right? They know that they could rather hold Bitcoin than go off on some spending journey. And they never assume the next check is coming because we just don't live in fiat land where they, you know, they can raise like series G. And they're just like constantly raising money. Like it's just not money's tight in Bitcoin land, but they're implementing AI like at a wild pace.

And usually what we see happen isn't like, yeah, there's like the more sophisticated ones that are maybe running one local model and trying to do things. But most of the time, it's just straight outsourced to big tech. Right? And it's mostly Claude, but you know, probably there's actually a decent amount of the Google side just because almost every business runs on G Suite. It's really hard to run a business without G Suite. So Gemini is already like ready to go.

And then a lot of Claude usage, but yeah, I don't know. I think so the question to me becomes, where am I going with this? The question to me becomes like, when does it hit Google? Google has 190,000 employees. Like it doesn't have to hit every business to have a massive outsized impact on the economy in terms of job loss. The big tech companies alone are maybe 10,000,000

employees or something. If that gets cut down to two, and all of a sudden you have 8,000,000 people that were making outrageous bullshit salaries of like, k a year or whatever. And they all get let go. We can have like pretty significant effects. And I, I think that's where we're going. And I think people are like trying to paint it in a rosier picture,

but yeah, I don't know. I think there are good arguments and I feel like it always seems that way sort of in the moment. I mean, I don't know. I don't want, I'm not going to pretend like I'm a philosopher here. Okay. Again, I'll leave that to Gigi, but know there are many instances in history where like, let's say a company or a country was like, most of their economy was just all like processing textiles. And then suddenly boom, this machine comes out and 90%

of the people just boom, they lose their jobs. They're like, what are we gonna do, man? Like, right, all the jobs are gone. Right? So it's just that sort of always that same narrative, like always happens again and again. And I, I don't think that AI at least the way it is now is like, okay, now this time is actually different. Like, don't think, I don't think that's where it's at right now. Maybe, maybe that's coming, but I think like LLMs, for example,

I see that maybe like improving products, like maybe Gemini like works better now or something like my customer support is faster. I can get a refund faster because a human didn't look at it. Like maybe things like that happen, but, and I don't know. I would also say that there's probably like a bubble in big tech where these people are getting ridiculous salaries. No, it needs Yeah. To be corrected

So either way, like it could be a healthy thing. Maybe the big bubble is that people are getting paid $200,000 a year to go to meetings and make PowerPoints and just dick around, which is like, you know, half of corporate America. Like, I can just make your PowerPoint in two seconds now. Yeah, but I mean, if they all get fired, that's like 12% unemployment rate, and that's like Great Depression brutal.

Yeah. To be clear. I mean, it would yeah. But they would do something else, wouldn't they? Like, they're not just Yeah. If they were like working for DoorDash, that's not not the same thing. But I do agree that human like humans usually find a way. But there's like there is a a, I think it's also important to realize that we've never been in this place before. Like I don't, history rhymes,

but we're in a very different situation. I forget who it was. Know, it was some modern philosopher king That was like, the big tech royalty got up has gotten a pass up until this point because they've they brought with them this upper, like this upper royal class that is below them. Work at the companies or whatever, but they're making like you said, like, there's $600,000 salary, they're going into the office, they have a full buffet, you know, the big tech style.

And so those people are all like, super happy, but they're like, beneath them. And they kind of get brought up with them. In this world, like we could easily see companies, I think, that are you know, these trillion dollar mega giants that have like 70 employees like we see with Tether. We've seen it more recently with hyper liquid. Obviously, those are both like in crypto land or whatever Bitcoin land. But we kind of see it with only fans only fans is like super profitable per employee.

So like, when is the first time we see a billion dollar unicorn with just one employee, two employees, like, think that starts to happen. Or arguably OpenClaw. Didn't OpenClaw get a billion dollars? And that's just one guy? No one knows what mean, got bought by OpenAI. I mean, I know OpenAI paid TBPN guys over a $100,000,000 at leaked.

So if they paid him that, then I would hope that Peter with OpenClaw got more than that. But it doesn't matter because that's all funny money, right? Like that's printed stock. Like it's the original shitcoin. So they don't know. I mean, what's the real valuation? We'll find that out when they eventually go public. And there's actually like a liquid market where you can trade your shares against it. But like, what's the first like real?

You know, like the next? I don't know. I'm thinking like even lower tier, Like the next Snapchat or something could be like three employees. Like one is extreme. That's you're being provocative. Like people need companionship. I think like if you're like building a unicorn, like you probably need like three ride or dies around you at the very least. But they could have like a team of a 100 agents running everything. We're already at that tech level. Think like we're pretty close.

Yeah. We're not there. I think for sure that it's coming. Tether was a, is a pretty unique different situation because it's like their capital is scaling. It's not really their productivity, but yeah. You could launch like thirty, forty Claude AI agents at once and build an entire code base. You could tell me not to do that now. Tethr's a perfect example.

Right? Because I think I think the last public information that was released, because it is a private company, it was like under a 100 employees. And like, they're making like $25,000,000,000 profit a year. I bet you if you got rid of like 95 of those employees, they'd still make like $24,000,000,000 in profit like, is like those. At that point, it's just like, you might as well have an extra 70 people doing whatever the fuck they're doing.

But I bet you it's a small core that is actually generating the majority of the profit. And I think that becomes more common. Usually, historically, we haven't seen that again, the digital era, we've seen companies that scale bigger than they've ever been able to scale before these big tech giants, Facebook, literally their their addressable market is limited by birth. Like they basically have full penetration of the human population. They just need more babies to be born.

So that piece happened. But then they also brought with them 300,000 employees or whatever Facebook has, that we're all getting ridiculous salaries. Well, imagine if those 300,000 people didn't exist, and it was just Mark.

And like, I guess, like, his wife was involved from early on, and like three compatriots, and then they had Facebook, You know, this is like a multi trillion dollar business. Yeah. Maybe if that happened, Facebook would actually be good and we wouldn't need not. There was a time when Facebook was good, man. We're in university times, you know, and you need a university address to get in. It was actually a good app. The good old days. No. My good old days.

Anyway, sir, I think this was a great rep. I really enjoyed it. Thanks for going a little bit philosophy with me. Next time. We'll need Gigi for sure. And we'll bring Gigi on next time. Anything you want to tell the freaks before we wrap? Just the main thing is if you haven't tried wisp yet, please try it. And if you have any issues or like feedback requests, any thing you want added, like I'm all ears, please tag me, message

me. I'm down to make the product as good as possible. So help me, help me do it. Love it. Freaks. I'll put all relevant links in the show notes. Let's do this again in like six months. I'm in. We'll do a recap. See where we're at. See if you're completely broken and pivoting to something else or got replaced by AI freaks. Love y'all. I'm taking next week off because of Vegas. If you're going to be in Vegas, hotstyle.pubkey.com, we've got a great live event and limited capacity.

I expect we'll sell out in the next couple of days. So hotstyle.pubkey.com. We'd love to meet you in person if we haven't already. And I promise you it'll be a a really a really great use of your time. Huge shout out to utxo.mobile. Try it. Give him feedback. Be annoying with your feedback. No questions too stupid. He'll just roll his eyes and not answer you. Love y'all stay on the stack sites. Peace.