These are fun. Off the cuff discussions on movies and streaming series, both new and old together will attempt to bridge the gap between Hollywood industry insider and the casual viewer. This is Alec nine, Ben and you're listening to the Cinema A to B podcast here. Everybody.
Welcome back to another episode of Cinema to be today on the docket, we are going to go ahead and do a retrospective on the Indiana Jones saga, the first four films, the trilogy, the trilogy, which was the first for the four film trilogy of Indiana Jones. Now we're going to we're going to kind of take a look back at where this franchise is and anticipation of the the upcoming release. Or by the time this drops, it'll be in theaters Dial of Destiny.
And we will ultimately probably speak about that film as well. But for today, Alec, I just want to kind of take a step back and and kind of evaluate these these movies some some great and some not so great. So once you kick us off, some not so great. Well, I'm a huge fan of Indiana Jones, so I watched the movies. I've watched some of the young NATO Jones show. I really like the character. I also really like Harrison Ford. I think he's fantastic and I love that he loves this character.
I think this is probably one of his favorite favorite roles that he's ever played, or I know it's the only role he wants to keep coming back to. Like being pulled into the recent Star Wars ones. He was like, I did it for the money, like he did not want to go back. Whereas I think especially when they were doing Crystal Skull, it was Ford and Spielberg kept kind of pushing Lucas like kept sending him scripts of like, Hey, let's do another Jones again, Let's do it. Indiana Jones again.
And he kept saying, No, no, no, until finally they settled on Kingdom of Crystal Skull, unfortunately, But we'll move past that. But I grew up watching these films. I have watched them dozens upon dozens of times. I, I love the first three so much with Raiders being my favorite. I think Raiders is one of those kind of perfect films for me that we kind of like talked about with like Shawshank and things like for me Raiders, it just doesn't get better.
I mean, Raiders is in my top five movies for a specific reason because it's so good on so many levels. Temple I love I know Temple gets a lot of hate. I actually really enjoy it. And then of course, Last Crusade with Connery, it just adds a whole nother level to it That just makes it fantastic. Yeah, I, I struggle a little bit because I love these films too. I don't think I have any of them in my top ten. And I might have to reevaluate that.
My challenge is my brain knows that Raiders is the best of them. Like in there in there is no close second. You're right, it is perfectly constructed. But my heart my heart just prefers the entire dynamic that Sean Connery brings to Last Crusade. Yeah, like that. That's kind of my challenge. So my favorite of the Indiana Jones films is Last Crusade. But if somebody would ask me, like, try to do some sort of unbiased evaluation, which one of these movies is the best?
It's Raiders. It's Raiders, but I just have an enjoyment. I just come I keep coming back to Last Crusade. Yeah. No matter how hard I try. Like, I just that's the one I always seem to come back to. And now I will say that it is as far as I know, Last Crusade is the only one that I've seen in a movie theater. Okay. All right. It's possible that I've seen Temple of Doom, but I would have been really young, and I'd have to ask my.
My dad took me to all sorts of stuff when I was little that he probably shouldn't have. And it's possible that Temple of Doom was on there. And I'm scarred for today. Golly. Well, you know, that scene is incredible. Incredible. It doesn't give me nightmares when I was a kid. So. Oh, it's. Yeah, it's absolute nightmare. Fuel Temple of Doom is such a darker movie than people want to admit. Like, Yeah, it really is. It really is.
And it has some things that it offers that no other indie film can bring, but it just kind of foreground short round. Yeah, really. The only like James Bond nod is in the beginning of of the Temple of Doom as well. But yeah they're those first three movies are are tremendous And then Kingdom of the Crystal Skull suffers from a from a script that just should not have gotten pushed through. It's just bad dialog Like we've talked about this before. Like I wanted to love this movie.
I wanted to love Kingdom of Crystal. Skull was totally okay with an older indie like 100% on board. Like we move forward totally okay with him against the Soviets as opposed to the Nazis. But my goodness, the rest of it is just rough. Like the fact that he survives a nuclear blast in the refrigerator. Like that's when I was like, checked out. I'm done. And then you have essentially a West Side Story street battle like 5 minutes later or something along those lines.
You know, like since it's not really West Side Story, but it's like, you know, the, you know, the greasers versus the jocks kind of like bar brawl. And I'm like, okay, this is just dumb. Like, I don't know what like, I expect so much more from you. Spielberg How did how did this get past like how if it was it was done by committee and just because there there are rumors of earlier script drafts that Spielberg and Ford absolutely adored and that they had a totally different MacGuffin. MM hmm.
There's rumors of of a there's rumors of a Garden of Eden style picture that we could have gotten. There's there's an Atlantis storyline that I think that got kicked back. So they brought in some really good screenwriters and just the there there had to be agreement amongst three parties Spielberg, Ford and Lucas. Mm hmm. And Lucas got, I think Lucas kind of wore them down.
Like I think Lucas from the from what little I've read that kind of leaked was Lucas was the one in the lead up to Skull that just kept rejecting story ideas. And they kind of he just kind of wore them out. And so they brought in another screenwriter. They write Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, and everybody was like, Let's just do it. Let's just get it out, let's get it done. And they frankly shouldn't have done that.
I you know, I think there's an argument to be made that things look a whole heck of a lot better if if this is just remains a trilogy because as maligned as Temple of Doom kind of has its and it's still good and and a lot of second entries are just suffer that's kind of a common thing and so but when you end as strongly is as last crusade did you know you had this nice neat little trilogy it sat there with the original Star Wars trilogy and it sat right alongside
Back to the Future and everything was really tidy and it just it didn't work yet. It has a lot of issues. For me, this script just isn't particularly compelling. The Soviets I'm fine with, but I, I don't care for cheap Blanchett or whatever is the villain. It's just like it doesn't work and just fine. Yeah, I don't even have a big complaint with Shire.
Like, I don't I mean, compared to compared to some of the narrative problems that exist within the movie and like dialog issues you talk about and you just weird stuff I think. What's his name or something? Yeah, I think that's one of the lesser problems in that movie as compared to some of the other stuff too. But it doesn't help. It does not. No, no, no. I like them bringing back Marion. Yeah, there was some fan service stories and that was okay, but it's not a good movie.
Yeah, well, and fun fact, apparently Spielberg and the the girl played Marion, whose name escapes me at the moment. They did not like each other. They had problems on Raiders, which is why she didn't appear back in any of the other. Oh, Karen Allen. Yeah. And so Spielberg called her up and was like, Hey, you're cast in this upcoming indie. And she's like, okay, like had no knowledge until Spielberg basically just told her that she had the role.
I mean, granted, I probably honestly, I've offered it to her and she took it, but I just find it it's funny, she was like, I thought we hated each other, but yet he's going to put me in this movie. So it just it's it's funny, those kind of things, you know, looking back so many years later, cause this was it. Oh eight, right? Or Kingdom was, was 2008. Yeah, Yeah. So I did get to see Raiders in the theater. It came back I think for a digital rerelease.
Yeah. It was like I think it was like, well I forget what year was anyways. It did a rerelease in the theater. And so Laura and I went and it was one of the best movie going experience. I mean, it was like us and like for the people in the theater, which was just like I hated. But I also love because it was like, I'm watching the big screen basically by myself and it was just amazing.
Now, we also joked and wanted to go talk to the projectionist and say, Hey, can we since there's nobody else in the theater, can we have them do it in black and white as opposed to color and watching? Would you have done that way? What how would you how would you been pulled that? I don't know. I can I could do it on my TV. I thought maybe they just pull the color. No, you can't. You know, you're not doing that with 35 millimeter. Well. Well, it was digital. Yeah, it was.
But I think you probably could have seen it. It probably damaged the projector though. Yeah, but they said they said no. If you want to know what we're talking about, I believe it was. So Director Steven Soderbergh did kind of a write up on ten or 12 movies that he recommended that you view in black and white, and he actually did a cut screening, and if I'm not mistaken, his screening of Raiders of the Lost Ark wasn't just black and white.
I think he took all the dialog and stuff out of as well and either made it a silent film or if it or if it was just music, music, track, running underneath. But he just wanted to see how well the visual by itself would play. And then it was an experiment to see if the lighting style was truly closer to that of a 1930s like Serial, which it turns out it is. And so Alec and I back, I don't know, somewhere between 2029 and 2012, both sat down desaturated.
The TV and it was amazing and watched Raiders of the Lost Ark in black and white. And it is stunning. It is utterly stunning. It is a totally different viewing experience. I don't think I would say one is better than the other. I, I, I wouldn't I wouldn't pick a colorized version over black and white or black and white over colorized. But it is it has to be seen to be believed.
I think tonally it does change some things in black and white versus color, like I would say like the bar fight in Raiders when it's in black and white feels darker. It's like more serious then in color. And there's a couple other moments like that that just feel a little bit more serious than they do when they're actually in color again. So the overall, they're both great, but I think there's definitely some some levels there too, that that changes. Now, the interiors all feel better.
Oh, my goodness. In Raiders his apartment mom's house but the exteriors don't. So the the dig site in the desert I think loses some some texture when you bleed the color out. But all of those interiors even simple stuff like his his house there it just there's there's a subtle texture to his, you know, books and his bookcase and stuff.
So, yeah, the film was completely lit in a manner that is close to the way kind of old school stuff in the thirties and forties was almost feels very like film noir esque, kind of like that with those interior shots.
And just, I mean, you could tell like you brought bookcases like those in his, in his house just pop when black and white, where you kind of lose them with color, like you don't really think about them, but in black and white, which gives this that whole scene a different feel to it. And again, a little bit more serious tone. And when he pulls off the gun, throws it in, is it you kind of like I prefer it in black and white if I'm going to watch it. I've watched it in color since then.
And again, I love this movie, so I will watch it any way I can. But if I had my choice, I watch it black and white. Well, it makes sense. I mean, the movies 1936 and so tonally, period. Correct. Like something something like this in black and white makes sense. And fortunately, the director of photography prioritized kind of pools of light. And, you know, you get shot on color film. But yeah, it's I'm telling you now if you're listening you you might think we're crazy. You've got to do this.
You know, on your next screening of Raiders just saturate your television and prepare to be amazed. Now, I will say it does not work on Temple or No Crusade. So we after we watch on Raiders, Laura and I were like, Let's watch the other two and see because it's the same DP for Raiders as it is for the other two. And so we thought maybe it would be the same. No, it does, it doesn't. Anything.
Temple's a little bit better than than Crusade, if I remember correctly, but it's not enough where I actually felt like I lost things by watching it in black and white as opposed to color. With raiders. I feel like things were added, so it may have just been, again, a different lighting style or just different expectations or different desires of what they wanted out of the shots where he was maybe able to play a little bit more with Raiders.
So but I know it is the same deep for all three, right? So I just don't know. It changed. I do want to speak a little bit to Temple of Doom. Yeah, of course. No, you know, it is interesting that it is it is technically a prequel. Why they decided to do that? I, I don't completely understand. It doesn't matter to me like a year. It's supposed to be a year earlier and it's like narratively it doesn't make a difference.
I mean, and especially since it's not like they're pulling from some type of already like media out there, It's like, this is not a book series that they're pulling this stuff up. You know, it's they created it. So why do. Yeah, yeah. This is this is the one that's they just couldn't quite live to expectation But like you said, Raiders is in your top five and I know plenty of people that that's kind of where it sits in their filmography.
So how do you how do you follow up you know one of the best films ever made and not have everything kind of click. So if you could speak to it, what what is it about Temple you think just doesn't work? Indy Fighting the Nazis, I think is a big proponent and there's no Nazis in it, obviously. And I think that changes the dynamic. It feels far more supernatural comparatively to Raiders, Even though we're dealing with the Ark of the Covenant.
It feel greater, still feels far more archeological, and it doesn't really get supernatural until the very end when they open the ark. Whereas you do get a lot of kind of supernatural stuff that happens in temple that you don't get and raiders and you don't get in crusade either, like very much.
So like again, crusades kind of the same way you don't get a lot of that supernatural stuff until the very end which kind of grounds the movie a little bit more and I think, you know, and then also I feel like, how do I say this? Like it feels weird starting out in China or was it Japan or I think it was China that they were they were at. I think it's Shanghai, Shanghai that they start off that and then they move.
And it's just this weird if it just feels, again, not as grounded, whereas you have the opening of him in the jungle, which does feel a lot more grounded. Like again, you kind of almost like you said, this James Bond kind of thing, which is not really what he was. You know, he was well, but that's what he's kind of written to be is their their answer. LUCAS'S And Spielberg's answer to James Bond. That's yeah.
So he's create he was created they were having a conversation on the beach and about movie making and James Bond came up and they were like, well why don't we just create our own American equivalent to James Bond? And that's that's how they birthed Indiana Jones. So the fact that there's like a nod to bond at the beginning of see, I think I actually think the beginning of Temple is amazing. Oh, really? Yeah, it's Oh yeah. With it. Yeah I love I love the way it looks.
I love the whole kind of stand off with those guys, with them trading, you know, whatever jewel or Oh no it's the last remains of, of his, of his dynasty. One of the Yeah. Ming Dynasty Emperor. I love that whole sequence. It's in, in you know Ford’s in that really sweet white like white on black tux. Yeah. No, I think the movie actually kind of falters after that. I would have been I would have been game with more of the movie in China. I think there would have been been interesting.
But that's all hindsight being 2020. I think I agree with you though, the supernatural element, but also the macguffins just aren't. They're not as good now, especially in the two movies that are lesser Temple and then Skull. Yeah, like if you have the Ark of the Covenant, the Holy Grail, and you just get these stones, like they're not even they're not even, like, attractive or I don't know, it just isn't. It's just not a, it's not an attention grabber. They needed something more substantial.
I think that he was pursuing then these sacred stones. And also I think that it feels so much more in temple that things happen to Indiana, whereas in Raiders and Last Crusade, he's got a little bit more agency on where he goes, what he does whereas over things.
But the joke with Raiders though, okay, speak to this if you're gonna bring it up we're gonna see this because I have I do thoughts I do want to speak to that because it's not true but I love it's not getting you riled up by bringing up that if Indiana Jones is in, in Raiders, that everything just happens just as it does. It doesn't. Okay. Okay. Okay. Here we go. One little thing like yes, okay.
Everything for the pretty much the movie would be it would be the same like except for the fact the U.S. would not get the Ark of the Covenant. That's true. That's true. What that would happen was another another group, the Nazi army would would come another group would come back to that island, see everybody dead. They would. But effectively, they would have to put it away, too. Like they would they would box it up as well. It would just be in a warehouse in Berlin and not necessary.
I mean, they could still do some type of experimentation within find out exactly because there was the camera that was filming it all as well. It did melted. I don't remember if it did get melted. I think it did. I think you get an energy blast, go into the camera equipment, too, and just blow everything sky high. What a sequence, by the way. Oh, my gosh. Absolutely Great. Just the blend of practical and optical effects, which again, the Nazis would have had the arc, which. Yeah, maybe.
Yeah, they put it away, but indeed, they did change the trajectory. If he wasn't in it, if he wasn't there, the Nazis would have it. He's in it. The US has it. I rest my case. I just never, I just, I just love getting you riled up with that. I don't complete particularly agree with it, but it's funny. But overall, yeah. My other on temple. I hate to say this, Kate Capshaw is not a bad actress. I don't like the way that she plays. Well, he's got. I just it's. It's so annoying. It's so annoying.
I find the character just super unlikable, and I think that for his cool, his short round is like he's negated. His coolness is negated with Willy Willy Scott arguably the worst the worst like female counterpoint character in Indiana Jones movie is her is is just awful but villain wise I think I think Molaro seems like one of the better villains in an Indiana Jones movie. I mean, he's the best Belmont's by far. The best.
Like he's charismatic, but he's still and he, like, pretends to not really be a Nazi, but he's still fully a Nazi. What is it? You might be able to remind me what is the thing he does? There's something he does during the ceremony with the arc that still lets you know that he's like a Nazi. There's a word he omits or something in the ceremony. It's like a it's a little it's a little Easter egg.
Sorry if you weren't familiar with this, and I'm not going to pull it up right now, but there's some sort of little Easter egg. There's something about the ceremony or his garb or something that's not quite right there doesn't line up. And so it's like he wasn't ever doing the ceremony perfectly right. Hmm. Because he because he hates Jewish people. Like he's he's an anti-Semite. It's a Nazi. It's like he actually wasn't even doing the ceremony correctly.
And that's probably as good a reason that he got his face melted. By the way, I saw this movie really young. And like, they're those models, faces melted like freaking scarred me. Like, I was just like, what is this? And then the scene where where once his face burns, his hand on the medallion always stuck with me. I was just like, This is crazy. Yeah. The ghost at the end. I mean, melting did also get me to as it as Oh yeah. Watch it with them come up.
And also it was like that like, you know, like it's always like the beautiful face of an angel. And also it was just like the face of demon face. Yeah. And it's their, their death, you know? It's the angel of death. Yeah. I'm too much else on temple. It's still a hugely entertaining movie, and it has a sequence in it that was originally supposed to be scripted for Raiders, which is the mind.
The mind Chase was supposed to happen kind of after he and Marion fallen the the pit where the ark is their escape was supposed to be for some reason. It was supposed to be mine carts. I'm glad it didn't, but glad they didn't play out because I think that would have worked. But no, it was a lot better when they did it.
So and then they did because they did mind cards obviously in Temple in that they had mine carts in and Kingdom as well, if I remember correctly, Credit AMC or something weird something something like that from Earth. Yes. So. Well to touch on a crusade before we dip our thoughts on is your favorite. It is my favorite. And like I said, I kind of had to think on why that was the case.
And fairly recently I just realized that the the dynamic with with Connery and Great and I had a realization that there was no other actor ever that you could make Indiana Jones as father then James Bond like it's come full circle. Yeah. This is the movie where Indiana Jones feels like the second most important character in the movie. Like he's not not in this more expansive, amazing. But I mean, he's just playing second fiddle to Connery in this, but it works so well and they're there.
What's funny is how close in age they really like were. And Connery got to play his dad. I'm sure Connery didn't appreciate that too much. But they're so good. They're so good. The other the other actress in this that I really want to give a lot of credit to is is Alison Duty is Elsa. She's great. And yeah, she's amazing.
And she was supposed to have she turned down so many other big roles like I'm, I'm not going to go into detail on it but like there's some big, big roles that she turned down after this. Hollywood was wanting to make her like an A-lister. And I just don't think she was really interested in that. So that's that's not what played out. But she's so good. She's so good. I think Marion's everybody's favorite because she's she's good. But Elsa's like Venice.
Yeah. Oh, Fitness. So. So here's a quick question. Did Elsa purposely give the wrong cup? Yes. I've watched this movie back pretty recently and it's something that took me forever to notice. She absolutely did. She. But she didn't realize that she would kill him in the manner that. Yeah. Like, I don't think she I think she thought that. What's his name. He would ask me this. Walter Donovan. Donovan. Yeah. She knew Donovan would die if she gave him the wrong grail.
But I don't think she anticipated that that would be the manner in which he would go. By the way, that that is the callback sequence to the face melting and readers like it's it's the counterpoint.
But yeah I I've watched it back so there's there's a couple of things one she was is well versed in grail law as any of them and there's a when she picks the real like frou frou cop like they're really it's all crusted in jewels and hands it to him there's this glint in her eye of like because she kind of like looks at in details like yeah she does that And then once he dies and she she gets over Donovan's death really fast, she like, screams like, get away from me, he's dead.
And then she's like, It would not be made of gold if it's like, Yeah, she totally did. And then she totally did. A man. She's a she's a really interesting character. She's a very conflicted character because she is she's a total Nazi but cares more about the archeology than the. Yeah, she does. She does. But she's so stupid. Yeah. Like, oh, like just half paid attention to the night, like, the whole time. Just. Just half listening. No, don't cross the seal. Oh, really?
You know. Yeah. So. Yeah, cool. Cool character. The other the other character that I think that I love in this movie is River Phenix as young Indy. And oh, what could have been what could have been I mean we would have we would have gotten you know, I don't know that he would have agreed to do the TV show, but I think we would have been looking at a trilogy of young indie movies with River Phenix if he doesn't pass away because he he is amazing.
Yeah, that performance is incredible as young Indy. I mean, he was a great actor anyway, so yeah, he his brother just carries the torch of, of being a tremendous actor. But he, he was, he burst on the scene first and Yeah. What could have been the other the cast is is great it has not aged as well as raiders the visual effects there for whatever reason it's eight years.
It was made eight years later, but it has several effects sequences where they pushed basically past where the technology was really capable of. And it just doesn't it's look, it looks worse and worse every year. So the the main scene that's just really bad is them in the in the airplane Indiana Indiana in and and papa Papa Jones in the airplane and it's a funny sequence with Connery back there just for kids shooting the tail rotor off but the blue screen is just trash. It's trash.
It is the tank falling off the cliff in crusade or is that raiders? I can I can never it's cruising it was a good tank is that looks really bad do like I love it though because it's a model to me man is in there too and you like it You can see the little man, like, far out and like, fall. Yeah, it's pretty funny. Does not victory at all. No, it does it.
That one I don't get is is frustrated with as I do the airplane because there are some a few scenes where they had a real airplane that red and white aircraft that's underneath a zeppelin and a few shots where they flew it and then everything else is just really really bad blue screen. And the other problem is there's like no wind either. Like, the wind is barely blowing in the face. And I've I've had a chance to ride in an open top like biplane with my mom.
It's you can't hear yourself think like it's so loud. The wind is blowing so hard. So that sequence is just not aged well, There are a few others too, with like there's another one with aircraft too. Where the with the Germans. A German fighter plane chasing them. They're just Yeah. It's like they pushed it, they pushed it too far. It, it, but it's still so enjoyable. I love cruising. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's more, I guess it's more fun for me then. Yeah. Than Raiders.
Raiders is a much more serious movie. Like a lot less comedy crusades. Kind of a buddy. It's like a buddy comedy. It's got more it's probably got more in common with Lethal Weapon than it does with it with with Raiders. With Raiders. Yeah. Yeah. Dog Indiana. Yeah. You were named after a dog. Yeah. I love but I love the line in Crusade where he's like Indiana is trying to talk up Marcus who gave the real story to. It's just like, you know, as in languages.
With any luck, he's already found the Grail. By now, he's like, You gave the crown to Marcus. Got lost in his own museum. It's the funnier. It's the funnier movie. Oh, yeah, it's. It's much, much funnier. And that's. That's why I like it more. That's why I'm more apt to throw it on and watch it. But it's not. It's not the better movie. I won't make that argument, I hope. Dial it, Destiny.
I'm confident it will be better than Kingdom of Crystal Skull and honestly, the bar is not that high for it to be a better film than Temple. Yeah. So if it's better than Temple, I don't. I don't have any illusions that it's going to be as good or better than Crusader Raiders. I think the bar is too high. Yeah, but if it can it be better than Temple of Doom? If it's better than Temple of Doom, it will make a ton of money and it'll be an appropriate send off for for them.
It's just it's it's frustrating that Spielberg decided not to direct this one. Yeah, well, sad about that. Yeah, but I will say it was also send off for the character because apparently Harrison Ford has spoken that no one else is going to play Indiana Jones as an adult like Young in any. Jones. Sure, But I know there was rumors of like Chris Pratt taking over or something and he was like, nope, nope, not going to happen. And I don't think audiences would respond well to that either.
No, I don't think that's necessary. Yeah. So in that way, it's not going to be like James Bond. It's not going to be a character that the different actors can inhabit. And it was never structured like that anyway. Even though it has a nod to the bond. Yeah, this is this is this is Harrison Ford's baby. It's so would you say this is the best character he's ever played? Oh, he's it's my favorite. I don't know. Deckard from Blade Runner is also a really great Harrison Ford character.
On the well note, the sorry, sorry. Han Solo is my favorite. Hands down. That's your favorite character? He's played his played. I think Indiana Jones is my favorite character. He's played some of his recurring stuff. Stuff? Yeah. Yeah. I think Indiana's done a blend of humor and pizzazz or whatever. Yeah, it's interesting because if you really deep dive, do a deep dive. It is a very different character from from Han. Yeah, it's not, it's not the same. It's not the same guy.
So he's not a scruffy looking Nerf herder. DNA No, but All right. Well, thank you all for listening. Really appreciate it. If you want, you can ask us to not review a movie, but talk about a movie that you want. You know, if we haven't seen it, we'll definitely go see it. Big, big summer of movies here. We're entering. Yeah, And we got a dial of destiny coming in soon. Once we go see it, we'll talk about it and get our thoughts and see if it if it delivered is a good send off.
Yeah, if it delivers. Thanks, everybody.