These are fun, off the cuff discussions on movies and streaming series, both new and old. Together we’ll attempt to bridge the gap between Hollywood industry insider and the casual viewer. This is Alec and I’m Ben and you're listening to the Cinema, A to B podcast. Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Cinema A to B. This is my co-host, Alec. Hi, everybody. I'm Ben. So, Alec, today we're going to be talking about a film.
You know, when we decided to do this podcast, I knew for a fact that we were going to talk about this movie. I didn't know exactly when. I think it makes sense now to just get it, get it in the in the can, as it were. As they say. This is your favorite film of all time. All right. Ok. What? it is. Oh, I'm surprised. Oh, this is exciting. I thought it was a different one. You thought we were talking about Top Gun Maverick. I did. I did. We're not. We're not.
That's. That's next week. That's next week. I misread the email. Yeah, you did. This one is your favorite film of all time. Hands down. Hands down. Michael Mann's 1995 crime drama epic, Heat. Point of clarification. Not the Heat with Sandra Bullock, The Heat. And what Melissa McCarthy and Melissa McCarthy. No, no. This is Heat with Robert De Niro and Al Pacino. Yes. And many other great people. Yeah.
And many other performances that I think kind of get lost sometimes unless you watch it again and again and again as we both have. Yes. Hands down. This is my favorite film of all time. I can not watch it back to back, but I easily watch it at least once or twice a year. Just to feel good is not the right word, but just to be impressed over and over again.
It is a masterpiece, in my opinion, is, you know, Mann has done a lot of great films, but this to me is his masterpiece of all of the stuff he's done. Just the timing, the character building, the story, the action, the sound design, everything is so thought out and process. I mean, he is definitely an auteur of just he controls everything, but he also does a great job of getting really great people around him who kind of help him with stuff.
And this people I know, people say it's slow, people say it's too long. I completely and utterly disagree with them. You cannot take anything out I mean, there's maybe like one or two things you can take out, but this so much is building the character or building tension or building this.
If not, the world is not the right thing, but basically just building this kind of these character arcs and where they're going that if you take too much out or even even a little bits, you lose some of those kind of idiosyncrasies or the special parts of the characters, you know.
So I think the biggest thing that I always like to say, and I'm talking to people about this movie is when DeNiro goes into the hotel near the end of the film, the latter third of the film, he goes into the hotel and you know, most people would see him, you know, show him, walk into the hotel and then get into the floor that he's on. Right.
You know, you don't need this intercut 90 seconds of him walking through the lobby or walking, you know, getting to the elevator or doing all these different things. But there's so much in the character that you can just see him of like looking at the different people around the space, looking at the hotel clerks and noticing things and kind of just how well-trained Robert De Niro's character is in this film.
And again, it feels superfluous at first, but you take that out and you lose some of these things. You know, that he still, even at the end of this, of of all the craziness that has happened, he's still on top of his game. He's still really good at it. So, yeah, no, I mean, where where to begin? Where to begin? It is it is a masterwork. It is it is Mann's best movie. And there are a few people that would I know, some folks that prefer something like Last of the Mohicans.
And that's fine. And I love Last Mohicans. But Heat is far and away his his best film of all time. And the challenge now is, you know, he's still directing, but it's unlikely he'll ever surpass it. And that's fine. It's it's a masterwork and it's operating. The reason it's a masterwork is because it is operating it at a maximum level of expertise on every front script, acting, editing, cinematography.
Sadly, this reminds me watching Heat unfortunately makes me sad that Michael Mann made the decision to stop shooting film when he did. I mean, collateral is collateral Collateral got some cool looks to it for from the digital standpoint that offers an aesthetic that the film doesn't.
But he never really went back to the digital and he embraced a never sorry, he never went back to film and he embraced the digital, in my opinion, too soon before the cameras are really ready now, you wouldn't notice a difference, right? I mean, there's the cameras are running now. The Arri Alexa and Sony Venice and those are those cameras emulate film very well. But yeah, when I watch it, it makes me sad that it's one of his last true films. Yeah, that in I think The Insider.
And after that it it was all digital. And so I think he lost something by not shooting film and he didn't as deep change after Heat or The Insider. Well yeah well he did he ditched that I think there was a falling out because the DP which I'm if I'm not mistaken is is it Vittorio. I'm looking right now Storaro. You keep talking. I'm looking okay. I believe there was a falling out with the DP. Oh, no. In the cinematography. Dante Spinotti. Okay. Dante Dante's Spinotti.
Yeah, I whiffed on that bad. But yeah, there was a falling out with Spinotti because he was not ready to leave film and, and Mann was. I'm sure a lot of it had to do with workflow and not being able to see dailies for, for, you know, a day or two while everything was being processed were the digitals kind of immediately you know what you have not a cleaned up version, not a you know, but at least you can get an idea of what's happening.
So but he it is just I understand it's it's 3 hours plus and that is a that's just a barrier to entry for some people. And it is and that's fine. But where are you going to cut? What are you going to get? What are you going to remove? And it's not like the movie takes forever to build. It opens with an amazing sequence. The music starts. That's that's a big thing. With me is the soundtrack. The score for Heat is tremendous, and it really is kind of ahead of its time.
It it doesn't even feel particularly dated now. There's a lot of electronic in it that has aged well, and you can always see that some electronic doesn't age well, but the score is really, really good and it starts right off and you start off with with De Niro and another scene where he where he stays on him as he walks into the hospital through the hospital, commandeers the ambulance and it builds from that moment on and it isn't more than a few minutes and that you get the big first
initial heist with the armored truck, which is still just iconic. I mean, and and then obviously the big the big crescendo bank robbery scene, which Christopher Nolan managed completely for The Dark Knight. And this is a movie that Nolan just adores for good reason.
He I've seen, you know, public pressers, basically screenings of special screenings of Heat with that Nolan organized more or less and he brought Mann in and you can just watch Nolan just fanboy all oh yeah just fanboy all over in the presence of Mann and I can't blame the guy. This is it. Now this isn't my favorite movie of all time, but it's probably top three at this point.
Yeah I it's and ask me tomorrow and I might say this is also number one I mean it just kind of depends on the day but yeah really really special movie and unfortunately I'm running into this issue now. You know I'm, I'm older, I'm, we're 41 years old. I've got coworkers. I've got a really good coworker, videographer, photographer I work with who enjoys movies and he's very talented. And his his film catalog is is kind of different.
He's seen some some similar things overlap but the kids not seen Heat. And I tried to get him to watch it and I said you know add it to the list. Well, the reality is there is no list. And if he's litening if he's listening, which he probably will be Johnny freakin Johnny. Watch Heatt. You'll thank us. Yeah. I mean, I mean, it's yeah. And, and to your point, it is carried by De Niro and Pacino, but the performances you get from the secondary cast. Val Kilmer, top of his game.
Tom Sizemore, top two performance he's ever given the other being Private Ryan and the list goes on and you've got you've got like less lesser characters the like you've got a really weird it almost feels like a cameo, but it works. This is a really weird character played by Jon Voight with a really bad mustache. But it's yeah, the cast is incredible. Ashley Judd's really good. Pretty much everybody is fantastic in this, you know, You don't
I mean, it's even funny to say that Hank Azaria is in. He'd it He is it. He's good. Yeah. Oh Oh yeah.
So going really back to the music you were talking about, I, I liken it a lot to like Tarantino does a great job of picking very obscure or like not in the the psych you know zeitgeisty of like modern culture and stuff and bringing that back to the forefront, what you kind of hearkened on is the fact that I think Mann does a great job is picking timeless classics, you know, or songs that will transcend generations that are of their time but won't feel out of place a decade or two later.
Because, like, you know, I love collateral as well. Collateral is probably my second favorite of Mann’s you know, I know Blasphemy from the Last of the Mohicans people, but the soundtrack is still fantastic couple of decades later from Collateral, and obviously it uses a lot more music and songs than Heat does, but yet they still feel great, like good choices. And again, it's not that Mann’s doing this, Hey, let's hear this, you know, song that no one's heard about. That's really good.
It's more of knowing how to bring those that music. And that's not going to go out of date. That's classic. That's not, you know, just style that but it has substance that's going to add to it. And yeah, no, I really like that. Absolutely. And I think there's there's some classical elements in the heat score along with kind of synth stuff. And the only movie I can think of where you kind of use an electronic score that's not really aged as well.
It's, that's not it's, it feels dated, but I still really like it is Manhunter. Oh, yeah, Manhunter. Manhunter uses some interesting synthesizer type stuff, but the score is still really good. And you can there's a lot in common with the musical tone in Manhunter that he uses. What I think Manhunter is like1986 and then Heat is 1995. So almost ten years later, I totally recommend Manhunter. By the way.
That's my I'm going to get some guff for this, but this is that's my favorite of Hannibal Lecter movies. I do think Sir Anthony Hopkins is is the better Hannibal. But I think Manhunter I enjoy Manhunter better as a film than then Silence of the Lambs probably get some heat for that, but pun intended. Well, you know, hey, it's okay. That's what opinions are for. So. Yeah. Oh, man. So I do have to say, like, I know obviously that the the bank scene is fantastic in the gunfight afterwards.
That is 100% my favorite action sequence of all time. Like just and there's so much, so much in it. I mean, very sad that it kind of was you know, not we had oh my God, it's someone copycat. Copycat kind of did it in real life, you know. Oh, yeah, I know that. Which Well, which is I think it was North Hollywood. Was it North Hollywood. Okay. Which sucks and is terrible.
But the I mean, when you have Val Kilmer being used in the US military as like this is how you're changing mags or clearing stuff, you know, like, like that's how good this is. This is how much man cares. One of my favorite things is with sound design is that he required the use of the actual gun noises. Like, a lot of times when you hear gunshot, that's not actually what that gun sounds like.
It's, you know, just a oh, we want to use this because it sounds better or we have this already, let's use it. He was just like, no, we are going to get the actual sound of this gun to be able to use it for this shot. You know, And I really, really appreciate it. It now, it also sounded amazing and just like crazy. I mean, you get that pump in on some 5.1 or, you know, surround sound. It's going to it just sounds fantastic and just, you know, going everywhere.
Yeah. And I actually think that scene is the reason it's so good is the sound design. Like visually it is it's super impressive. And the the editing is super tight and it's really interesting because they're that's a really hard sequence to shoot. I don't I don't think people realize how difficult the degree difficulty of of keeping all of the action fluid but the viewers able to understand exactly where everybody is in that open city kind of center. Hmm. That's really tough to do.
And so visually, it all makes sense, like where they're moving towards, where the police are, where guys are coming kind of from their flank and shooting at them. But but that scene doesn't work without sound. Without the sound, the level of sound design, it is it would it would feel so much more muted and the intensity level would go down.
So, yeah, that scene lives and dies with its with its mics and and Foley and the rest of it is just Well yeah it's, it's never been it's been attempted to be duplicated. I felt like when I watched the town Ben Affleck's the town they kind of tried to give a little nod to it but you could tell they weren't trying to top it because the the shootout in the town didn't. But I think the shootout, when they're dressed in nun's garb, didn't last very long.
No, but the town exists is essentially an homage to heat. I mean, it's the same kind of, you know, process.
Yeah, I but I think what this movie has done that the others really have a hard time doing is making both your protagonist and an antagonist, someone that you can root for, like you like at this point, I, I, you know, it's hard to say who's the protagonist and who's the antagonist, you know, depending on where you line of like who you want to win or like who, because it is, you know, it obviously starts off with De Niro, but then, you know, Pacino's the cop, you know, So like, Oh, well, he's
the good guy. De Niro is a bad guy, but it's also like, Eat Dinner is on an evil character. Like, that's what I think. It's like he's you know, he's does he do bad stuff? Obviously, yes. But like, he's not a true, you know, evil character in this. And so you can kind of relate it. You relate to him. You can kind of root for him, which makes obviously the last sequence just, you know, what if the two of them just so tense because you're just like, who's going to get it?
Like, who am I really rooting for? You know, hands down, the ending is probably one of my favorite endings of all time in movie Dumb. Like just the music choice, the shot choice, because the sequences beforehand, the characters in it, I mean, like, you know, Pacino and De Niro don't spend that much time together. Like on screen. You really have the coffee shop and the last, you know, the last sequence when they're actually onscreen together.
And yet it is so powerful in both of both of those scenes are so powerful that I just mean, yeah, we tout them like in other movies now that they're doing together and it's just know this like a it doesn't it can't be replicated well and audiences unfortunately I never really got to experience this right because you I was 13 or 14 I think, when he came out and I wasn't allowed to go watch it and it was hard. Ah, reading. I couldn't tell you when I saw it.
I think probably probably four or five years later, I think on video is one like that was fine. It's it's a very mature film, but the audiences had been waiting forever, wondering, when are we going to get Pacino and De Niro in the same movie? I mean, these were the two titans of Cinema four at that point, you know, a decade early for more like a decade and a half. Yeah, maybe. Maybe pushing 20 years because I guess you get between Godfather and such. Yeah, Pacino's godfather.
And then and then De Niro comes on of a few years later with, you know, stuff like Taxi Driver and then Raging Bull. But audiences had been kind of wondering who's going to do it. And I don't think anybody wanted to touch it because I think they were afraid. We're going to bring in Pacino and De Niro in the same film and it's going to bomb. And it went, Audiences are just going to be flabbergasted that you would do that.
So if there's ever a movie to have combined them this was going to be this was perfection. And you made an interesting point with a viewer kind of wondering who's who's the protagonist and the antagonist. And basically they're they're each the different side of the same coin. Yeah. He's really what what they are. They're basically the same guy. There's a flip. That coin just ventured. Yeah, there's a flip side. What if I got you boxed in anyway, so I will not hesitate for a second.
Yeah, but no, you make an interesting point, because in traditionally in cinema you give the protagonist more screen time than you give the antagonist. And if that's true, then De Niro. De Niro is the protagonist because he gets way more screen time than Pacino way more. And that's ultimately kind of what happens. Watching is you end up kind of rooting for at least I did rooting for De Niro. Yeah. To pull off what he wants to pull off.
And unfortunately, he's chosen a lifestyle that just he's not going to be able to return from. And he makes and obviously makes a very key decision when he goes to kill Wingrove that he had it. He was free and clear. He had his woman in a hospital. She even says it, too. He just he does he's gone. He's gone back. It's just going to be like, what the brain are terrible. Pacino Impressions? Yeah. Oh, no. That was even trying.
I wasn't even trying. Yeah, but I. I love the fact that when he comes out and he De Niro sees Pacino and he's been talking this thing like, if you have no attachments, nothing that you can't drop within 30 seconds. And that scene of he looks at the girl looks at Pacino is like 30 seconds before he just oh I think it's like I think on the numbers it's 30 yeah it's mind it's time to exactly to his earlier dialog in the movie.
Yeah it's it's perfect for me It's those kind of things where you just like he actually has to make the decision, but then he does. But again, going to that ending with Moby's God moving over the waters, which wasn't the original score. What? No, no. There's another piece of music. This. Yeah, there's another piece of music. It exists. In fact, I think it sits somewhere on the official soundtrack, which I have on, on CD checking that you're there is.
And the original song was Not Moby's Guide Moving Over the Waters. There is a different piece of music that was much more in line with music you've heard earlier in the movie because it was from the same composer and man watched, screened it with it and it was just like, This just doesn't work. It's not working. It's not working for me. And so he I believe, man, if I'm not mistaken, I think Man Hand picked that piece and had them lay that in. And that's the perfection we get.
Yeah. Because it is. Yeah. That, that song, that piece of music is just I can't, you know, obviously nobody's going to be able to envision anything else sitting in that space as the credits roll and he's too perfect.
I can't explain why, but it feels like that that frame that it ends on feels like an older movie than it is like it feels like movies that ended like in the fifties or sixties would like freeze frame or it doesn't ever really freeze frame, but it feels it's so rare that a movie like Wall will just hold on, like the two main characters, like that frame the way it is and then have the credits roll like that. Doesn't don't recall seeing a whole lot other movies like it and actually challenge.
I would challenge anybody that's listening or watching on YouTube. If you can find other movies that kind of end the way that because I could be really wrong. But I mean, Pacino's back is to you. De Niro's dead sitting on that. Spoiler Yeah. I don't these are not I'm not freaking doing a spoiler alert for 1995, so I'm sorry you haven't seen this and even this. I'm going to have to tell poor Johnny not to listen to this. Not totally. Yeah. Let's do it afterwards.
Or get halfway through and then. Then stop. Yeah. Oh, but yeah, the way it kind of holds on that framing and that brings me, that reminds me the framing in this movie.
You could take you could freeze frame almost every shot in this movie and you have like a perfect masterclass on how to frame things in, in ultra widescreen because it's that it’s 2:35 aspect ratio they're nice widescreen and they use the use anamorphic lenses and he the way he frames everything is just him and spinotti just just perfect just perfect. Not a frame is wasted in Heat it's it's something else. It's something else. I even had I even had Gwen watch it one time.
I think she made it through and appreciate it for what it was. But it's this is a this is a guy's movie like it is. I'm sure there's I'm sure there's women out there that really enjoy it, but it's he took a guy's crime drama epic. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that yeah The female characters in there are, you know, minor parts. They're, you know, strong characters and, you know, man doesn't turn on the side, but they're definitely not the focal points of this. Like, no, he doesn't.
He doesn't have weak women in his movies anyway, even if it's not his is strong. And she's the. Oh yeah, right. Yeah. She, she gives him the cold shoulder there for a while when she realizes what he is, what he does. Yeah. But then, you know, Pacino's love interest. She's a super strong character too. And then he just has to tell her I'm not. I'm not. I'm not what you're looking for. Because he. He was just his career. He's just a walking, breathing homicide detective, basically in homicide.
And I want to shop on the edge where I got to be, where I got to be. Got a job off that quote we say it. Here I go. Yeah. Yep. Because. And he picks up on it. Yeah. He was like, that's right. Nice, nice pull. And then he and then he looks at me in the interview. He goes, Yes, when you after a week or two when you're here, I'll tell you my Michael Mann story because a guy had met Michael Mann and I was like, Oh, I guess I got the job then. I mean, if you're already for real. For real?
No, but it was just weird interviews that was comfortable. And I just he said something that I just important tip for everyone, you know, quote, he and you're going to do your next job interview. I mean, anecdotal evidence, but 100% the time that I've quoted heat in an interview, I've gotten the job. So 100% of the time, it works every time. Every time. So, yeah, but I there's so many good quotable lines in this movie, too.
It is that that's really interesting, too, because, I mean, it's not a comedy. No, it's not In is super quotable. Yeah. Yeah. Mostly Pacino. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Yeah. His delivery is about like. Yeah, De Niro's got a couple good ones in there, you know? Yeah, but he's so much. He's so much less. He's. He's much more in control character, so much more reserved and Pacino's just this live cannon, which is what you. Which is why you cast Pacino. Yeah, Yeah, but.
But I love that. Like. Like just why you brought it up. It just made me think I love the fact that the guy who's outside the law is the reserved one, but yet the guy who is the cop is the wild one. Just the super emotional kind of breaks the rules kind of a situation. But yeah, you know, it's an interesting dichotomy for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Because he still could have easily cast them the opposite reverse. Where were where, where?
De Niro's a cop, But that doesn't make sense to me, right? Like it's the whole thing of the thief only can mess up once and he's in a car, and the the law officer doesn't have that problem. You know, he gets a bad lead, whatever, on in the next one. So DeNiro had to be more controlled as a character, I think. Otherwise he'd be behind bars, which apparently he was right. That's. Yeah. He has to hold back. Yeah. I'm not going. I'm never going back there.
So that's why I had to file on everything. So. But this movie to me is a lesson on persistence, because from the from the director, from man, because he basically made this movie three times and he was the third iteration he made he made five with James Caan. Yeah. Which which this has heavy elements of and thief's a good movie and then he makes a made for TV version of this thing called L.A.
Takedown, which had a big gunfight and lesser actors, like, they even had the coffee shop scene, if I'm not mistaken, with way with, like, tv, like b or C level actors and then he makes and I think L.A. takedown was in the eighties. Yeah. And then, and then this is the third iteration it's effectively of it is the guy who plays the main cop is Vincent Hanna, which is the name of Al Pacino. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So this is kind of his third pass on the same concept and obviously felt like he he hadn't gotten the story that he wanted to tell. And so he just kept making it. And I, I don't know if you could get away with that now. Maybe you could. People make stuff. People make movies all the time that nobody ever sees. So if you didn't like your first version and you can raise funding to do it again, then why not?
But yeah, I mean, obviously it kind of reflects that, that he's clearly learned the lessons of what worked and what didn't. And then this is this is that concept in the highest form because he's new McCall he's based off a real guy, is he was a criminal in Chicago. Yeah. And so is Hanna, ex ex-Marine turned detective. That's a real guy who I think put McCauley behind bars, if I'm not mistaken, in Chicago in The Real Story. I don't think I don't think Neal died.
I need to I need to double check that, though. I could be really wrong on that. But so he had good real life to inspire that. So I don't think a lot of people I'm sure the Heat aficionados out there know there's even more things that I don't know, but it helps that that these guys are fashioned off the real deal because it shows through because he he for sure just feels authentic, like everything about it just feels authentic.
In fact, I think is one of the few movies actually feels like Los Angeles, like L.A. Not not Hollywood, not the not the Valley, like l like L.A. the way L.A. kind of feels. He That's pretty accurate. That. Yeah, kind of. Yeah. Always feels not like an underbelly, but always feels like it's
not on the up and up, you know? No. And it feels real metallic to in, like, the concrete city separated like the whole scene of of De Niro approaching it in that I mean, this is like another coffee shop or a restaurant or whatever and like, she's pretty abrasive initially. He's abrasive to her and she kind of strikes up conversation. That's very L.A. That's that's so L.A. Like in the fact that she's not supposed to be from Los Angeles.
She's like the midwest or southern girl that's living out there alone and, like, strikes up this conversation. He's just like, lady, what do you what do you want to know what I do? You know, that's super Los Angeles people are like that. I don't want this to turn into a banging on Los Angeles podcast. But the way this got that part right, the weather's beautiful. Yeah, weather is beautiful. But yeah, it's. It's. It's. He's on Sunday. He loves L.A.. I mean, you could just.
And I'll give L.A. some love here and here in a minute on something we used to do when we lived out there. That pertains to heat. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, so he is one of these movies that I think shows the beauty of Los Angeles. But the beauty of L.A. is when it is at night, when it lights up the city of lights and the helicopter shots of of Los Angeles and heat are amazing. It is. It's a really cool looking city. Nothing out, looks nothing else. Looks like Los Angeles at night.
I think it's at its best in the evenings. And what I used to do when I commuted from down near Santa monica back into the valley, because you get another big set of sprawling lights coming into the valley after the sun's gone down is I'd have the Heat soundtrack playing. Oh, because then you feel like you're in the freaking movie. But it is. If you're driving around at night, you come over that crest and you've got, you know, Van Nuys all the way out to Burbank in the distance, all lit up.
Yeah. Feels like freakin heat. Very, very authentic. Kind of the way it portrays that whole region feels right in a lot of movies, Don't they just use it as the backdrop? But it's like island. But that didn't feel like Los Angeles. No, but I will say you can definitely listen to that soundtrack at least three or four times in your way from Santa monica to the Valley. So, you know. Well, that was yeah, I mean, it was I didn't have it on loop.
It's something else because traffic does get you know, you're either going to time and or just man as was going to put on repeat just listen to it. Yeah so but yeah he does I will say like those that's I mean the one thing if I would cut it would be some of those helicopter shots, you know of L.A. but like one, I mean no, but like, I mean it's the only part that could say is not integral to the story, not integral to the character building.
It's more of integral to like the location, but it gives its feel. Yeah, it's a pretty amazing thing. And it's and you're right. It's it's it's the feel of it. It's the Yeah, yeah. No you can't take out the when he when he goes, when Bettina goes up in the helicopter and then lands it like, you know, whatever highway to get on and catch her. That's of course that's insane. Yeah. It's a cool sequence. Good movie. I love this movie. It's my favorite movie.
Like, all I want to do right now is just watch Heat. Like, it's probably been 6 to 8 months and folks are going to have to kill the podcast early. So I'll do a screening and oh my goodness, it's so good. It is. It is. It's I it'll be sad to me when I'm like even older, you know, maybe 60 and it's just this forgotten. I don't think it can be, though. There's no way there's no way movie buffs will like it.
I mean, when I when my student staff that I, that I have that work for me or whatever, who are all you know in, college right now, none of them have seen it for the most part. I think I've only had in the what, ten years that I've never seen students, one or two have actually seen it before. I recommended to them, several of them have seen it afterwards. But but again, I mean, it's a product of its time is not the right word, but it is it's definitely not a two day movie.
It is definitely a slow is not the right word. It is methodical, it is purposeful. It is a character build. It is what you just said. It was the shots, pacing it. It's pacing is so on point. But that pace is not fast. It's not like, hey, let's get into it and let's do all the things. It's more of like, this is this is the characters, this is the world. It's kind of amazing that the studio let him leave it at 3 hours in 95. Like, I mean, come on, this is before Lord of the Rings.
This is before it had a big theatrical release. I remember watching the trailers for it. Come on. And like, being really excited, like I wanted to watch it and my mom, I think my mom and dad went on like a date night or something. My dad took my mom to go watch it and but I remember seeing the trailer and like thinking that looks that looks about us like even as a 13, 14 year old, I was like, Yeah, that looks incredible. But I don't know if I would have had attention span then to appreciate it.
I mean, I would've been a little awfully young, so I'm glad I saw it when I did. And I can't tell you how many times I've seen it since. I have no idea. About 20, 30? I have no idea. I couldn't even at least once, at least once or twice a year. So it. Yeah, probably probably 20 times. I don't know.
And I'll go and I'll watch it again probably in the next 3 to 6 months and how it has if I've watched a specific scenes over and over again and not just the fight scene, like not just the the L.A. bank robber scene, like, I mean, there's so many scenes I just go back and just to watch, to appreciate and to see what I, you know, forgotten or to see new things. And it's it's a masterpiece.
I mean, if I were I don't think it's on AFI's top 100 movies all time or whatever, but I think it could be I don't know. I'm not that well versed in it, but I mean, if it's not, I mean, it it needs to be one of those. This is how you make a movie. Like I'm not going say it's flawless, but it's it's really close. Like there's not too much that I'm like and that was that was terrible.
I mean, obviously my then my favorite movie, I look past all that and think it's fantastic, but but now it's just from start to finish, from the opening sequence to the ending sequence. I'm enthralled. Like there's no down points. The only parts that I'm like, I'm like, not bored is not the right word, but like the stuff with him in it, like, but there's still character building.
There's still like showing him kind of trying to soften up or trying to think past the next score, you know, trying to think, what is my life look like? Which shows him as that, you know, latter stage criminal of like, it's no longer the rash, it's no longer about, you know, the next fix. It's like how do I don't think out in a life I don't think it ever was about the next effects like I don't think not he's the character he character is written.
You would never guess that that's what motivates He he's in fact, he's the only one that has an endgame. Mm hmm. Tom Sizemore is like, Well, for me, it is the rush. You know, the action is the juice, which I, I saw where somebody said they saw a guy on the street that had a T-shirt that said the action is the juice. And you're like, that is amazing. But yeah, everybody else, you know, Kilmer's character is a gambling junkie. Yeah, and Danny Trejo's seems to have it together fairly well, too.
It's like him in De Niro of that group are the only two that, like, seem to have decent motivations for as far as I mean, they're criminals, right? They're terrible people. I mean, they they're murderous, but they're the only ones with with a purpose behind this besides just a rush or more cash to go gamble down on their dues with the bookies like.
So yeah, it's here's what's going to blow your mind as I, I didn't realize this so it's only it's only ranked number 111 on the IMDB top 250 which is just criminally low. What Yeah. Okay. Yeah, it's like an 8.1 or no 8.3. But yeah, it's only 111. And then it wasn't even nominated for an Academy Award. No, no. Which is just reading not one, not one nomination, which there are movies like this that just get overlooked.
And this is this is one another one that just got completely overlooked was a box office bomb, was Shawshank Redemption.
It did not do well, picked up this cult following on video and he I think he followed a similar he didn't have a disastrous box office release like people saw in theaters but the the legend grew due to home video and you know I just get I get worried about that now with some of the stuff that comes out like I don't think I don't think Netflix is got the same ability for some of these movies to rise to the top the way it did when there were only so much stuff on the wall like Blockbuster
for people to rent or buy, you know, buy on VHS and then later DVD. I didn't get a hold of heat until it was on DVD. Same summer around I'm thinking 2000, maybe 99. Somewhere in there, I think is when I when my dad bought it and was like, you need to watch this. Like, he finally was like it was a rite of passage, almost burned, you know, trying to think who showed it to me and watch this movie. Really, I think I know. I think it was my cousin. My cousin Paul involved showed it to me.
Yeah, Yeah, I was. I forget it. Somewhere in there in the late nineties, early 2000, I'm seeing I think in late 90, no later than 2000. Did I sit down and watch it on DVD. Yeah. There's no way. I don't remember my first viewing of it. Well unlike some movies where I'm, I could tell you exactly you know everything about that night of when I saw it, but weird. So I'm looking at the nominations for best picture, the five or whatever they had.
It was Braveheart. Yeah, Apollo 13, it was Babe, you're going to see it with Dave. That's the first. That's the second one, right? I think this is the first one. And then Sense and Sensibility and then The Postman or Al Pacino. So the Kevin Costner one. Oh, I'm so disappointed that that was nominated. I would have if that was had been nominated because I forgot when it was because it's a forgettable movie, I would have been furious now.
And that's that's that's the water world with the United States Postal Service. Right. What is it? It's it is a comedy, drama film co-written by and starring Massimo Troisi. It's Italian, apparently, and directed by English filmmaker Michael Radford. It's based on a 90 and 1985 novel, Arden de Paciencia. So I need to talk about that. No, we don't need to talk about that. I mean, I haven't seen it, so I can't talk about anyways, but but like, okay, so like, he gets the snub.
I mean, Braveheart. Fantastic. Apollo 13. Great. You know, I would say like, obviously I can't go back in time and feel like how I felt because I also didn't I did see Braveheart pretty like I saw Braveheart before. I saw Heat. Obviously, I saw Apollo 13 the year it came out. So Bravehearts good, but I would take heat over Braveheart any day of the week.
Most people would. And that's there's a part of that is is the legal woes and then the anti-Semitic remarks of Mel Gibson have them have kind of tainted Braveheart like amongst some people amongst some people most people know. But what I noticed is over time, the excitement around Braveheart is really been overtaken by Gladiator. Like most people when they put those movies, those two movies up next to each other, they're like overwhelmingly now Gladiators, the better film.
And that that used to be the case. I remember I remember talking to a guy that preferred Braveheart big time. But the longer it seems like, the more time that passes that Gladiator just seems to hold up better than Braveheart. And then the fact that Bravehearts is not even remotely historically, like, actually it's not. That's not what they look like. That's not what they wore. I like it's just like it's cool where they fought that battle. So it's not how they won that battle.
Yeah, yeah. But but again then you, you have this long movie in Braveheart. So like, you know, you know, I was like, it's three at 3 hours, three and a half hours and like that Braveheart, I remember, was like two tapes or whatever, or like two disks or some crazy nonsense. We were watching it. I just wonder if I wonder if he was ahead of its time by like, maybe a good five years. Yeah, I guess. Oh, because if it came out, we're like in ten or.
Yeah, if, if it would come out in, say, 2000 or as leaders of four or five it for sure at that point I think it gets nominated for a bunch of category awards especially to tackle all the technical categories cinematography, editing. I just can't believe it didn't even get a technical nom. That's for sure. Blows my mind. Yeah, but I think the number of films there then that were nominated was shorter. Yes. So it was a long five shorter.
Yeah. Yeah. Now it's like so ten up to ten or update or some, some crazy number. Right. So, so yeah, I mean that's a that's not that important to a conversation. The reality is heat is tremendous because it does it it frankly, if you haven't seen it by this point, you consider yourself some sort of movie fan, then shame on you.
But if for our listeners that are more casual viewers, which is great, which is fine, that's a yeah, put it, you know, we've spoiled the whole damn thing for you, but shame on you too. So worth it. But even spoiled, it's still worth it. It's still going to be worth your time to watch it. And like, like this is definitely a movie that you want to pay attention to, not scroll on your phone and and go through like this. The shots are purposeful.
Like, it's like Ben was saying, you know, you could take almost any style of the movie and it's cinematic. Like there's not a wasted shot, there's not a wasted moment. Everything's building to certain moments and crescendos, goes back down, crescendos again, goes back down and then crescendos again. So it's really well worth it. So this is a movie that I'm not even on my phone when I watch it for the 20th or 30th time, I'm still like just laser focused.
And I can tell you there's a lot of movies I, you know, love that. Yeah, I don't care as much. Yeah. So, yeah, yeah. The list is the list is short. I think of those the list is very short. And he does one on that short list. Well, yeah. We're going to wrap this up. Yeah. Appreciate it. Anybody? Everybody listening, watching, tuning in on on podcast and, and watching us on YouTube. We will we will roll out another episode here shortly, every Monday. That is the the plan. That is the plan.
That is the plan. There's plenty of movies to go through 2020. Not already great like Heat, but actually mostly. Oh yeah, I'll probably do for something that we didn't like, right? Yeah. All right. So thanks everybody.