Yeah, but the mess of the backwards thing is interesting because I heard you say that you shot the devil you put in the Lord's Prayer backwards, something like that. Yes, we had a, I think we had a girl come in.
You know, the whole PMRC the? I don't know if if you were grown up then I don't know. I remember
like hearing about it on MTV and stuff. And they showed the footage. Yeah, nighter and all that. Yeah, that was like a big thing. Yeah. When I was a kid, those stickers, they started putting the stickers on. Like, I was really into rap music actually, before I got into rock and I remember I wanted like NWA. And my parents were like, No, so like, you know, you get your friend by it. And then you record on a blank tape and you write like New Kids on the Block or something and you trick them.
Yeah, well, that was the parental the you know, the Tipper Gore thing. Yeah, they called people in to testify before Congress and everything. And they were all you know, there were people who swore that we were, you know, worshipping the beast and, and a motley crew was, you know, it was all about all about backward masking and being evil. And so I like to screw around with them. And so we did the Lord's Prayer, which was probably the least offensive thing I could think of. Right,
so I could see them. I could see them, you know, recording it, and then playing it backwards and then slowing it down. Say, What was he saying? Was he saying, kill yourself? Was he saying, Let's worship the devil? Is it something dirty? And then it turns out to be the Lord's Prayer. Oh, I see.
That was Molly crew. Are they doing that shit? Just it was it all kind of an act? Because there was this? Do you remember this limo driver? What's his name Al Bowman, and he came out and he said that he drove the band to these like eerie ceremonies and rituals. And the church of Satan. He drove Nicky sixth to the Anton LaVey or whatever. Is there any truth to that?
Not that I knew of. No, no, they did.
Remember that. limo driver is that guy just totally for shit.
I don't remember any limo driver. They didn't have a regular limo driver. You know, when they had a limo. They, you know, I wasn't with them all the time. But, you know, during the time I was the few times I went on the road with them that, you know, they didn't have a regular guy. They never, you know, they never held any rituals in the studio. And, you know,
Nikki was doing they were doing that shit just to fuck with people.
But Nikki was fascinated with the occult. Okay. And, and he wanted to, you know, foster this evil kind of evil vibe for the band. You know? So, you know, in the songs, right? Shout at the devil. I'm not sure what I never found out really are never asked what shout at the devil meant
because I thought they tried to say no, we're saying shout at the devil. Like, we're against the devil. But with the pentagram and stuff. It seemed like it was kind of they were gonna do in the opposite. So yeah, I was a little confused that
would that would have been striper. Shout at the devil.
Yeah, well, yeah, that made more sense for you work for them, too. Yeah.
Yeah. Anyway, no, I didn't see any evil. I didn't see any sorcery. I didn't see any occult. You know, they were just bad. They were bad boys. You know? They did not. Respect. Law and order or civility or, you know, courtesy. Well, courtesy. Courtesy, you know, yeah,
well, what about Ozzy? Like, I didn't realize that you were in the meeting when he bid the head off the duck. You actually got to see that lol.
I wasn't or you weren't. I wasn't in the meeting. But, but this is what I was told. But oh, okay. But I can't remember who it was. But there are so many different stories. This one was by was told to me by someone who was who was there. Oh, Um, I can't you know, I never even I met Ozzy once the the bad thing was real.
Rudy Sarzana. He told me that he thought, I think Ozzy thought it was rubber. And that's why he did it is what Rudy told me.
Can you imagine? That really is not a taste sensation.
No. And how did I mean? You talk about like, how they said COVID spread was like a bat. I mean, couldn't got some disease or something? Or,
although I would think so. Yeah, dead bad, ya know, not interested Thank, you know, that are alive.
But yeah, that's just some crazy stuff. And this, but I'm not a very good salesman. I can't sell things that I don't believe in. i This book is amazing, though. Like, I'm telling people right now go get it. We're going to talk about some of the stuff hopefully don't spoil too much of it. Because I think there's so much in there, we wouldn't be able to talk about it, all of it anyways, but it's really entertaining. Like, you've looked at amazing life. Pretty crazy.
I'm so glad you like it. Really? I'm getting a lot of really positive feedback about it. Yeah. You know, and I think people are probably surprised that somebody who did the things that I did musically could actually write. And, you know, and I really have an MBA
from Columbia. I mean, I think you've probably learned did a little writing there.
Yeah. Mostly, mostly in college, really. But I enjoyed it. I really enjoyed it. And I wanted to memorialize the, the era. You know, I wanted to tell people why why that music was so good. That's a hard thing to do. You know? Yeah.
Well, I think it's like, I think I told you that, you know, my show is all about entertaining, educating, inspiring, inspiring people, I feel like that book does all this. And your story alone is inspiring. Just I love that. You started the book and talk about how you need took this advertising job, and you weren't happy. And then you know, that's like a lot of people story. I think that people are scared to
kind of follow their dreams. And then you finally decided, You know what, hey, I'm gonna go try it. You'd write this letter to Clive Davis and you get a job with a record label. And the rest is history. But that's a big lesson to learn. I think that people should, you know, hopefully be inspired by
follow your dream. Yeah. Well, I was very lucky. Because at the time, the record business was exploding. They were hiring people, they were making albums as fast as they could to meet the demand. You know, and there happened to be a position open. I was very, I was very lucky. Yeah, but I really went from hell to heaven overnight.
I know I love it. I love this turnout, like, before you painted your walls in the in the advertising place. And then you came over the weekend, and they had painted it back. Yeah, the new job, you have a sign that says Enjoy cocaine, like on your wall. That's crazy. Totally night and day.
Right. It was and I was, I was delighted I, you know, I, I was quite sure that there was no job that existed in the world that could be better than the one I had at Epic Records. Especially when I started to produce records for epic I on my own. And I just couldn't believe I was getting paid to do this. Listen to music and that I liked initially and then make it better just by suggesting things and rearranging things and listening and hearing you know, harmony in my head and saying, let's do
that. And having it work and hearing a band and saying, Wow, this sounds good. I think I better go see him and flying around the country. You know, in in the days when flying was fun. It was great. It was just great.
When you had there's three big bands that you brought to the label that and they they passed on and two of them I don't want to mention many people by the book but the one that I want to talk about was kiss and I think initially you signed Wicked Lester and they broke up so the album was
shelved. And then they rejected kiss and then what happened was kiss got signed to another label they bought the Wicked Lester album and shelved it further so they buried it so that they couldn't come out because that I'm fascinated is that how did people never see kiss unmasked like back because nowadays you just that couldn't happen with social media, but back then they were able to conceal their identities.
Yeah, well, they didn't. Made it. Nobody knew about wicked less Yeah. So, okay, yeah, yeah, there was no association at all. I mean, they were never publicized, there was no marketing, the album never came out. And they never did any live shows locally or anything. Probably probably did, but they were produced by an independent engineer. And then we finished financing the record. And they broke up before we could even conceive of how to market it or
whatever. And, and it was so, you know, it did sit around for a year or so. And then, probably another year passed after Neil Bogart signed kiss until he bought it. And and then, you know, he just, he just buried it, it would have it would have been embarrassing to them, I think musically, but it wasn't bad. It was it was Sugar Pop. Right.
So when you saw them, them performance kiss, that was just a trio, and it was in a rehearsal room. They have the makeup on at the time as well.
They did as I remember it, yes. And spandex, you know, the whole thing. And it, they were good. I saw, you know, commercial success there. And it wasn't, it wasn't, you know, my kind of music really, um, you know, I'm really a pop guy, not a metal guy at all. But I thought, wow, this is this is, you know, kids will like this. And I liked it, because it was performance. You know, it was, you know, there was something different about it. And it was it was very good.
So it was the trio. So Paul was doing all the guitars. So what did they add? They added ace later.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I don't know. Exactly when I didn't follow them closely. But yes, they were they were a three piece at that time.
Yeah, that's crazy. And those other two I won't mention, but people can buy the book and, and read it. This is crazy that you brought those three in the label turn that that's such an insane story. thing I want to ask you about was in the book, where you talk about when you follow a producer, Beatles producer George Martin into the bathroom. And you ask them some questions.
It was George Harrison,
or sorry. Oh, it was George Harrison. Yeah, it was George Martin. Okay.
Because I, I did spend an afternoon with George Martin. Okay. You know, and that was about the Jeff Beck single. But it was at a CVS convention, a CBS Records convention in London. Where I, I had to talk to him. He was my favorite Beatle and gee whiz, I mean, the Beatles, you know, so, so so so I did, I managed to keep him interested for about a minute. And then I just excused myself because I thought, Well, this guy, you know, how many people come up to him and want to talk
to him in a day? So it was great. I,
I do remember the questions exactly that you asked him. And you must have had had these in your mind for a long time.
I asked him about his songs on revolver. Because I could see, as soon as I walked up to him, I thought, you better you better engage this guy in conversation, because I know he doesn't want to talk to me right now. You know, he's he, he just went to the bathroom. He wants to go back to his table, whatever. And I asked him about
specific guitar parts. There is one one little guitar figure in God to get you into my life, where he played a duet with himself, he harmonized that little thing before the somewhere in the middle of the song, and he was interested, he you could see him focus a little. And you know, because he understood that I knew something about, about music, something about their music in particular. And he wrote three songs on the album, and we talked about that, I think, but you know, it was
specific. It wasn't, hey, great to meet you. So, you know, what do you say, you know, and afterwards, they thought, well, you know, Mick and Keith, were there at that at that convention in a table right next to George and Rinko you And, and I thought to myself, What would I say to Mick Jagger? I had? There was nothing I could do. I could never engage him in conversation. But, but with the Beatles, it was different. Yeah.
I mean, it's yeah, it's one of those things where they say like, don't meet your heroes, but most of the people that I've interviewed on the show have been like, really kind and amazing.
Yeah, yeah. Well, you mean, the heroes?
Yeah. I mean, everybody that I've, that I've interviewed, I mean, like, yourself included. I mean, like all these people that are made amazing music, or films, or authors that I've had, and all the comedians have, everyone's been people know that level of success, tend to be pretty happy. Awesome.
Yeah, especially when they're having that success.
Right. Right. I know, talking about how later, sometimes they get frustrated, and then they blamed you that, you know, it's like, you've ruined the record, but like, oh, we sold 6 million copies. So it wasn't that bad, right?
Yeah. And I don't know, maybe I'm just, maybe I invite that kind of abuse. I tried to collaborate, I, you know, I made a lot of money for these people. And some of them just, they loved it, then. And then they, you know, they accuse you two decades later of just not not doing a good job. Well, I think
that you as a producer, because I think a lot of people don't really understand what a music producer does. And you give a great example, in your book about this is not a song that you produce. But just an example is that like the Eagles take it easy that there's a banjo in there. And I was like, Wait, I've heard that song a million times. And then I had to go back and listen, listen closely. After you said that and you know what to look for. You can totally hear a
banjo. It reminds me when I was in college, my my roommate was a music major. And do you remember the song The Lenny Kravitz song Fly away?
No, I don't. I don't.
Okay, so listen to that. So I said, Great. You probably recognize you probably heard on the radio, but like, I wanna get away, I want to fly away. And on the course, there's a very subtle with you, but I never noticed it until he pointed it out. I was like, Oh my God, how did you hear that? I was like, that's what I think is amazing about a producer is that they hear things that the average person is not going to hear.
Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah. It's like that other. There was another example of Foo Fighters song that I that I mentioned that there was a vocal harmony in there. And, you know, you hear it but you're not conscious of it. And and, and that was, I'm sure. You know, a conscious decision by Dave Grohl to, to keep it way down here, you know, so so it didn't it wasn't part. You know, right. If it was if the two boys vocals were equally loud, you know, it would have been more commercial
more predictable. Anyway,
right. He wanted that they wanted to be more cool more or less Poppy. More rockin.
Right, right. And they were in an interesting
another interesting example of that. Is that your tree cheap tricks on that you did the second two albums. I think you guys found the bigger groove because I feel like that first one. Like the I want you to want me that version. It just feels a little like more poppy than the live version that's more rockin Why do it differently live? Why didn't they play it rockin like that in the studio?
Have no idea. They presented that song the way I mean, it feels exactly the way the demo felt. It was a lightweight song a dancehall song, a 1930s flavor and that's why I specifically arranged it with the attack piano not not a regular piano attack piano that's like you know it's like a saloon in Wyoming in the 18 hundred's. Then they got to Japan and and bang it was a completely different song. I guess they thought, well, this
is too light. For us. We don't want to be that pop. We want to we want to be a rock and roll band. Every band wanted to be harder than they were basically. You know, they all want it to be really, I mean just rough and rockin and you know except poison. They were they were pretty satisfied with with everything. Even every rose which is pretty, I mean, I don't want to be, I don't want to, you know, be negative about it, but it was it was a fairly sappy
arrangement. You know, there are a lot of oohs and ahhs in there, there are strings and, you know, and and I think at one point they said, you know, you we might, we might catch a hell from our fans, you know, for something like this. But, but it was, I guess CC made it sufficiently aggressive so that it wasn't embarrassing to them.
Well, it's their only number one hit. I think you're only number one hit. Alright. So it's interesting, because wasn't a lot of their fan base women.
Yeah.
Like, can you talk in the book, this is so great. There was so many women coming in and out of the studio, you wanted to get like one of those, like, take a number of kind of things. At the delicate at the deli that you get, like, that's how many there were. So explain this to me then like, is Brett having? Is he having sex with him in the studio? And if so, like, where is there like a lounge or something? And did you not want to sit on that couch afterwards?
There were lounges everywhere. In all the studios. Obviously, I didn't see what went on in there. But no, no, you know, the when the bands were in the control room or in the studio, they were working. You know, there was no, there was no out outrageous behavior in the recording studio. Really, the only thing that I saw was probably something like that.
When I was at the Wicked Lester sessions, and Jean and Paul had some recreation with with with a woman that Jean met on the screen in a in a drum booth in the next studio. I didn't I saw shadowy figures, then I left. That was it. I mean, otherwise, when you're in the recording studio, it never got like that. I mean, we we can stop working and socialize and drink and do the occasional drug. But you know, there was never any blatant sexual activity in the studio.
Or in the lounges next door. You're saying? Oh, I'm
sure.
I'm sure there are other lounges.
Oh, yeah. But I wasn't. You know, I wasn't inside.
Are you not allowed in that? Is there like a lock on the door? If they have a girl or how does that what are the
Oh, yeah, there are locks on the door and there's a lounge, every studio. So somebody honked anyway.
Yeah, cuz you said in the book, that motley crew, you feel like the dirt is accurate that they their bad behavior wasn't exaggerated. You just there just wasn't a lot of it in the studio. Like they actually came and worked. Right. But Nikki said to that it was was it theater pain? Well, the one that they were, that's the one that he's kind of unhappy with. Or at least he said that in the 90s I remember. They were fucked up. They didn't care.
He possibly Yeah, I mean, in the book, I say that it was the least satisfactory of the three albums that I did with them. Because there was a lot of pressure a lot of time pressure they had to write you know, a lot of songs on the spot really to follow up shout at the
devil's success. So there was tension and there was stress and you know, by the time we got to girls, girls girls, they could you know, they could control they had enough power to control the schedule and say no, we we don't want to go out on the road until we've you know, we finished this album and it's going to take you know, we'll tell you when we could go so was something
you went to you did go to the Motley Crue bachelor parties you said like Can you are you sworn to secrecy on those like because that sounds crazy a Motley Crue bass. I mean, I feel like just their everyday party life was crazy. Did they kick it up or not for a bachelor party?
Well, no, the I didn't stay at Tommy's very long. It was in a strip club in the valley. And I've never been honest to god, I had never been to a strip club and You know, I wasn't comfortable there. So I did not you know, I went there and I watched something for a little while and then I left. This is was at a mud wrestling club, the Tropicana just off the freeway. And and we did. I did stay there for for quite a while, but it wasn't. It was more a spectacle and not a
social thing. It may have become more sociable when I after I left, but I had brought a friend with me, who had no idea what the record business was like, I brought him to Vince's party and he he got a glimpse of a different world. So that was the deal.
Yeah, pretty crazy. So talking about this, too, I think you, you mentioned that Nikki six after he voted on heroin, and it's pronounced dead. Hours later, he calls you up saying let's go get some sushi.
He didn't call me. He didn't call him. I called him. Okay. Yeah, to see to see. You know, how he was what was going on? I thought he was dead. You know. And then I think, you know, it was his accountant. Why I'd never, I never really spoke to his accountant. But anyway, he was the one who told me that Nikki had you know, we revived and checked himself out and, and he was at home. Unbelievable. So, you know, I called him and, and that was the only time I had dinner with him.
Do you remember that conversation? Had he? There? Was this an the opening? away? Or sorry, awakening of like him going, Oh, crap, I need to change my life or was he just was it just normal chitchat?
I do not remember. Oh, you know, this was like, what, 40 years ago? I just don't remember what our what what the conversation was, was like. But I'm not sure. If he really changed his behavior. At that point. He was never, you know, hobbled by heroin. And as I said, in the book, I never saw him act as if he was under the influence of anything. Really. So I don't know how he or when he managed to indulge his habit. But he was definitely in control of it.
You know, nice Ansible heroin user. It's crazy. It
functional. It's like a functional alcoholic.
Yeah. Well, what about with Vince like, because Vince had a car accident? He goes to prison. He comes back. Is he changed at all? Do you notice a difference in him? Did he? Did he ever talk about that?
No. No, we didn't talk about it. And no, he was the same guy happy go lucky. Probably a little more sober. Probably a little more serious for a while. He was just a very happy guy positive and good natured, you know, like to party. That's it.
Yeah. And Mick was probably the least party, Person of the band and talk about though you did. You talked about how you doubled the rhythm guitars, which made the sound less gnarly, but, and the band didn't like that. But you think that that helped the song get on the radio?
Yes, exactly. I love rhythm guitar. It was the basis of all of the songs. It was the basis of my, how I approached producing the songs recording the songs. You know, the best example is Cat Scratch Fever, which is a classic riff, you know, and it makes the song it made the song. Every single stone song is the same way. I mean, Keith, but he doesn't necessarily double anything, but it's his introductory riff that
is the backbone of the song. So, you know, many times it would be this the sound of one guitar was just a little too Ragan for me. And when we doubled the guitars, you know, it just kind of smooth things out a little bit. And it also made them a more present. part it was more present The sound easier to easier to hear. And, you know, that was the thing that drove drove the musical track was the rhythm guitar part. So I paid a lot of attention to that.
Yeah, cuz I mean, I think like, especially Wildside I think that's a great example. Like, I can't imagine that being done differently. I feel like that you that was like a masterpiece, like that song just came out perfect.
You know, I'm not sure if we doubled that or not, because that's pretty, pretty intricate riff on Wildside. But I loved Wildside I you know, I think it's the best song on that album. And we had a really good time doing it. Yeah, I liked the I thought the lyrics were pretty good. It was it's great song.
Yeah, no, I know, I think you said something about producers don't necessarily get to pick the songs or do you have any input? Because essentially, when the girls girls girls, like the expanded edition, or whatever was called came out, and I heard the song rodeo, and I was like, Oh, this song is a really good like, I like it better than the other ballad. You're all I need. Was there any talk of putting that song on the record instead? Or do you know why they didn't
put it on? We never, I don't even know. I didn't know anything about that song. Oh, that came later. You know, in what you said was what the expanded edition? Yeah, you've asked her to or whatever? No, I just, you know, we did what we did. And then and then I moved on to the next project. And, and I never I haven't heard many of the bonus tracks on subsequent albums. That that these bands
came out with. One of the reasons that they did put all those bonus tracks on remastered or remixed albums was to make more money. Because because, you know, if the producer got x per album, for the original 12 Song album, when they if they added four songs that that the producer didn't produce, then the producer was getting 75% of what he had originally gotten and the band. You know, if they put demos on, which they did,
yeah. And live tracks, obviously, you didn't produce a live track,
right? Then you get what you can. Yeah, but 60 You know, then then you've got 16 tracks instead of 12. And, and you only get 12 sixteenths of the album of the royalty that you had agreed to?
Ah, that's interesting. I never thought of that. But yeah, that would make sense. Yeah. Did you hear any of the other was there other songs like demos that you got to hear or songs you guys recorded that have never been released? Like Jesus or anything you remember, and it was a long time ago, but
I'm sure there are, there are plenty, there are always two or three songs pretty much on every album that I did, that we jumped, you know, you would start to record you would record basic tracks for 15 songs. And then as each one progressed, you would see that this one was much stronger, and this might be a single and this one not so good. And three or four would fall by the wayside. You know, and you would always record more than more than you needed and more than could
actually fit on an LP. You know, the that if you made really, really long sides, they had to be volume had to be much less. Yeah, there were mechanical considerations to the length of a record.
Like do you follow a band like Motley Crue after you know that you're not their producer anymore, but you still follow them and see what they release? And
yeah, I mean, there are a couple of songs on on Dr. Feelgood that that I really like I think they did a really good job. They were completely healthy at that point. Totally straight. That helped. But Bob Rock was good. kickstart my heart is great. You know, the I listened to them but but no, I didn't. I probably didn't didn't hear much. Two or three albums after the last one I did with any band.
Did you ever listen to the 1994 self titled One with John corabi? No He's kind of like a cult classic.
No, I didn't, you know, I was just too busy. Really, I spent 20 years in the control room and doing 52 albums, and I didn't, you just don't really feel like checking out more music after 12 hours in the studio, right? So you're pretty much focused on what you're doing at that time. So that when, when that project is over, you'd like to just clear your ears, clear your head and not say, hey, what else is out there that I can listen to? You know,
right now that makes sense. Do you think that motley crew, I don't know if you even care, but do you think that they would deserve to be in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame? Because I find it kind of puzzling that they're not in there? Because I mean, it feels like if it's rocket if we're talking about fame, I mean, they're playing stadiums. 40 years later, why are they one of the most famous bands in the world? How are they not in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?
Good question. You know, if you would, if you had said when Motley Crue was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, I would have let it go because I would assume they were in it I don't pay too much attention to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame you know that elected inducted Dolly Parton? You know who's fine, but not rock and roll. Yeah, they should be of course, they should be cheap trick is. So why is that? Yeah, I mean, the trick is great. And they were my favorite band. But come on.
Ted Nugent. I don't think he is because then I don't think show up now. Because of the politics. I don't think they're going to be too favorable towards him.
It was a tough one. It's a it's a real tough one for me to you know, to, to to justify my, the fact that I even talked to Ted at this point, because he's, he's been so extreme. But but the I don't know, have you read that chapter?
Oh, I read the whole book. Yeah, I've had Ted on the show. I thought it was nice in the book that you because that's something that I you know, I can 80s and 90s. Like, Republicans and Democrats like, oh, you voted for this guy. Oh, you went for that guy. Okay, like, and then you go have a beer. That was like, it wasn't a big thing. Now. It's like, it's obviously totally different. But to your credit, yeah, you, you speak highly of him. You speak highly of stripers a Christian rock band.
And I'm assuming that's not aligning with you politically, either. And so it's kind of the freshing to hear that.
Yeah. They know, politically, that their faith had nothing to do with politics. They weren't evangelists. Really. I mean, they weren't they would not be Trump fans. You know,
I don't know you should follow Michael Sweet on social media. I think he's posted some some things that are low.
I don't know. He's a great guy, Michael. He
I loved having him on. I think he was he was a great guest. He's, uh,
they were fine people. The interesting thing is that Michael has now worked with three bands that I had something to do with
Austin and
Bob Boston. Yeah. And
racy guns.
There were two who who crazy
guns. You worked with
that? What a strange pairing that is. But, Michael, those were such there was such nice guys. The Swiper. Guys, they were great.
Yeah. And what about okay, I hopefully this isn't spoiling too much. But I have to ask you about this because I'm a huge Guns and Roses fan. And I always wondered, I was like, you know, it's interesting that you didn't produce that album. They went with Mike Clank. I mean, obviously, it worked out. It sounds amazing. But now I found out that you were in the running to produce Appetite for Destruction.
Yeah, yeah. I was asked by Tom Xu talk who signed them to Geffen to go hear them in rehearsal. And you read that it was a strange thing. And then Duff Mckagan just went nuts on me. Maybe he didn't hear right. I was, I was courteous and, and I said, I need to come back when you've got your singer because I can't evaluate any songs without the vocal. You know, and thank thanks Allah. I did put some earplugs in or blocked my ears because the the noise was physically damaging. I mean, it
was so left in there. And that's why I said, Where's your singer? And they said, Well, he doesn't rehearse with us because he can't hear himself and we can't hear him.
It's just not it's like an acoustic thing. Like the sound was not good in this room.
Well, it was A tiny room. And they were, it was the loudest, the loudest performance I'd ever heard. And I've heard some loud performances, you know, it was just, you know,
the way he told the story was that you said, you put your ear hands over your ears and went, Oh, fuck and walked out, which is not what happened.
Not at all what happened? And he just did that. And I asked him, you know, at a subsequent press release party somewhere, I said, Why did you lie? Why did you make that shit up? And, and he got really, he was drunk. And he got really angry, and he threatened me.
Did you threaten to punch you? Right? Yeah,
yeah, he threatened to punch me. And he, you know, he only he was only 20 or 30 years younger, and like half a foot tall. I mean, even
remembers that though. He's such a different person. Now. Like, I don't know if he wrote about that in his book. He probably doesn't remember it.
Possible. Oh, he'll remember. He was on my case. Big time. Really? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Because I know, slash talked about how there are periods of his drug use where he people will tell him you did this. And then he's like, I don't remember that at all. Like, he's totally.
Well, I certainly remember it. You know, I never knew exactly what the deal was with him.
Do you feel like at this point, it's time to make peace with all this stuff. Like with the thing with Nikki six and Dee Snider? Like, I mean, aren't we old enough?
That Well, older than me, Nikki called, you know, and you know, he did that make amends thing for the 12 step program. D is, you know, real mystery. It's just just ridiculous. I don't try to explain that, you know, I can guess, about the reason for, for his silliness. But it's, it's too late. Really, I mean, I really don't need at age 78 I don't need to approach these people and say, hey, you know, let's let's make up and be
friends and Kumbaya? No, I, you know, I, I really I recoiled at at his behavior and, and what he said, I mean, you know, and then I asked to, I asked him twice via email to get me on his show. Never heard from him. He's enough. Who knows why they do this, but they do do it.
Then what's going on now with Nikki and Nick Mars, like, because it seems it's really divided the fans and a lot of the fans are saying, Nick, the band is screwing over Mick Mars, and I don't think a lot of people are are on the other than the band side. They're all siding with Mick Mars. And I. I've said I don't know what to think of this because I don't think I have enough information. But what do you what is your take is I mean, you kind of an outsider, but you've also worked with the
band. So you must have an opinion.
Well, three against one. I really don't know. But But Nicky and Tommy, I think have the, the lion's share of the interest in the band, the financial interest. Mick was my favorite guy. You know, we really got along and worked very well. Together. He's a good guy.
That seems to be what I keep hitting. That's the consensus from a lot of people and musicians that have worked with them and
oh, yeah, he's he he's a very decent person. You know, the other three are somewhat different. Not that they're that you know, much worse. But their behavior and track record is not what mixes?
Yeah, well, okay. Sorry.
There's no I like I'm in his corner. Uh, but I do not, as you said, I, you know, I really don't know the facts, so I shouldn't really make any judgment.
Yeah, no, that's how I feel too. With poison back to poison. You're still on good terms with them at IMS. I haven't heard any bad things from either side on that. But why did they not ask you to produce the follow up to open up and say all because that's their biggest album, it was their first number one hit. I mean, it was a massive success. So it's kind of shocking that they wouldn't invite you back to produce the follow up flesh and blood.
Go No. And and you know, the other. The other question the the converse of that question is if if A cheap trick for instance, wasn't satisfied or Motley wasn't satisfied with the job. I did. Why did they have me do three albums? You know what, uh, you know, the band hide the producer, they can fire the producer. So, I, you don't? These are questions that I've never been able to adequately answer. And as I said, at this point, I'm not seeking answers
anymore. It's over. I've been out of it for 23 years, and very happy. You know, it was great. I've put it all in, in writing. And I'm, I'm really happy with with what's on the pages. And no, I don't need to reintroduce that bile, that toxic substance into into my life. I'm very happy now. To hear that fire blissfully retired in a wonderful place. And, you know, I don't need them.
Right. What about? Here's a band that you'd never mentioned, but I'm just curious about Skid Row. Like, Were you ever a candidate to produce their album because that seems like it would have been a good fit. I mean, I love what Michael Wagner did too. But I just wondered if you ever they ever came across your radar?
No, I I was once interviewed by a foreigner. I would love to have worked with them. I can't remember who actually did the the album they were talking to me about and McCartney's office called once and if you know if I was available, and I didn't believe it, but but no Skid Row never Spinal Tap. Consider me to and I didn't I didn't want
the Blues Brothers. Right. Whether they're gonna make a second album, I don't think I haven't even knew about that.
Yeah, well, we talked about it. And we talked about it Atlanta talked about it. It was that was quite a, an event in my life to have John Belushi in my dining room. And in the music room, said he's the most hyper
person you've ever seen. Yeah, yeah. He never started with a motley crew. That's crazy to me.
Oh, yeah. No, I'm just talking about switching and and moving and bouncing his leg and tapping on fingers on the tape. You know, he just didn't sit still. And he smiled more at my house then. That I don't think he smiled once. When we went out in New York for the evening. We you know, I don't remember him smiling. He he was a he's an intense, very intense guy.
What's he funny? Just hanging out was he like, kind of like, you know, you hear stories, or Chris Farley was always like, you know, just the funniest person in the room at all times. Was John Belushi like that to?
Not with me? No. He was pretty serious. Interesting. Yeah, he didn't crack jokes. You know, I can't remember what our conversations were like, where a lot of that a lot of it was music. You know, he went through my whole record collection, picking out albums that had songs that he would consider doing. That was that was that was quite, it was very memorable. In many ways.
Yeah, there's so many things like that in the book. I'm also interested in more than the later years when you talk about like LA guns was one of the projects you did, and it's funny because you say like, you have this list of hits and misses. And you claim rip and tear from LA guns is one of your misses. But I mean, the band still plays that song 34 years later like some producers might consider that a hit but why do you say that that was a miss Well, I never
heard it I don't think it was a radio song that's why it's a miss immuno if it wasn't widely heard by the listening public. It just didn't get the exposure that that I thought it deserved. Because it was so special. The especially the ending. That was the whole thing. I just wait for that. You know, when it just takes off into the stratosphere, that song that was that was it.
But you weren't as excited about that album? Or the project. Why did you do it? Then you could have said no, right.
I liked them. I like Tracy and I was asked to do it. I can't remember if it was the label or the band or the manager? It wasn't Alan colback. I know that. I can't I can't really remember who contacted me. But I liked them. And and, you know, I liked some of their songs, and I wasn't doing anything else. And so I did it. You know, it was really after wasn't in the early 90s,
I think was 89 was cocked again.
It was late. So it wasn't, you know, I wasn't doing my best, my best work and I probably wasn't getting that many different offers. At that time. You know, I never lacked for work, but I definitely wasn't working with the with big bands, after a, like 89 or 90, because all the big bands played completely different music from the kind of music I was associated with.
Right? What about Lita Ford explain this? Because it's, you talked about how there was like, I mean, you kind of explained the process, there were some issues with the pitch of her voice. So just I'm trying to explain this like to my audience, is it kind of like, you kind of auto tuned her like old school way? Or how what did you do? Exactly?
manually? To Yeah, yeah, not auto.
So yeah, you you manually before there was an auto tune button, you manually went through and cut pieces of tape and made her sound on pitch.
I didn't, I didn't cut any tape I, we we put the vocal track through somehow, you know, I'm not an engineer, but they put it through a synthesizer with a pitch wheel. You know, synthesizers have those, you know, that'll bend the note up and down. And so I could apply the, you know, the results of the pitch wheel, or the effect of the pitch wheel to her voice. So we would play a line and I'd say, okay, that word is a little sharp, that
word is a little flat. And then we'd rehearse it a couple of times, and I would sharpen the flat and flatten the sharp and, and kind of bring it pretty close to perfect. And I had to do that with with just about the whole album. It was a, we were very fortunate to be able to do that with her vocal, She's a good singer. But she was just having really a really tough time. For some reason on that, on that record.
What do you know, like what is your theory as to what was just something going on? Like what like something maybe a voice injury or something?
Know, something, something with the with her inability to hear her own pitch? We kept trying different things. But it wasn't really, it wasn't really a serious problem. It was just a challenging problem. You know, the the solution was challenging. We didn't know what, what what to do until somebody
came up with that idea. We tried different mics, different positions, we we put two speakers facing each other, you know, in front of her, and a microphone right in the middle, which is the you know, the it's supposed to cancel out. You're not you don't for some reason, hear the speakers, but you would hear her voice. That didn't work either. So interesting.
Well, it's interesting that you were able to find all the solutions for all these crazy problems, and you had so much experience. So when the music scene kind of changed, you wanted to pitch yourself as a consultant, that's what you wanted to do. You thought you could go in and help, you know, with these kinds of recording issues like with Lita like, and it didn't nobody wanted to have it.
Right? They they said we don't need that. And I think it would have been great. You know, I had all all the qualifications. You know, I was a, an a&r guy for 12 years. And I was a producer for many years. And I was so I was I was on both sides of the control room, really. I hired producers, and then I did produce. You know, I had, I had 50 albums at that
time under my belt. And there were very young, inexperienced a&r men at labels who really didn't know how to make records and would waste a lot of money. I had a very good, I thought it was a really good concept. And I would have definitely saved the label Are many times what they paid me to do this, and it would have been fun. I would be a troubleshooter, I would be, you know, the FIX IT guy.
I like the wolf and Pulp Fiction.
But like who the
wolf and Pulp Fiction, you know, the guy that comes over and fixes the problem, you know, it's kind of like the the guy in the movie that yeah, the clean or something like that. But you
know, it made sense. But did you ever think of starting your own record label at that point, because you knew all the things you could have you had the connections, I mean, it seemed like you're putting a lot of energy into getting onto one of these other labels, it seems like you could have just started your own label.
You know, I never wanted to, I liked the simplicity of what I did, I certainly didn't want to start a company, I didn't think I had the talent to do that either. I should have had an imprint, you know, of some kind, meaning, you know, a little production deal that would have given me my own, I would have the power to sign
bands to a bigger label. And I could, instead of having permission to sign the band, I would be able to tell them, I'm signing this band, you're going to put it out, I'm going to produce it and that's it. Or somebody else is going to produce it. And that's it, but it was just too, too complicated for me. It happens, you know, some some guys did it and and did really well. Some guys, I guess, tried to do it. And and and it didn't work out that well. I never wanted to do it. Yeah.
Well, so you talk a lot. There's a multiple times in the book where you talk about kind of dealing with people in Hollywood and this whole like, Hollywood thing of like, what have you done for me lately? Like, first, they don't accept you, then they accept you and they love you. And then it's like, oh, well, you know, now you're not cool anymore. And then they ignore you. What is your like, now that you're older and wiser and you look back on that time? Because you've had
some time to reflect? Like, what do you think there's an answer to that a solution? Is it maybe just acceptance? Or would you something you would have done differently in dealing with people like that?
No, it's just the Hollywood way. I mean, you know, there's less sincerity. I think and, and honesty and truthfulness in in Hollywood than there is in New York. I honestly feel that, you know, it's like, it's Tommy Lee, a wonderful guy, but incapable of saying no. He was just so enthusiastic, and so wanted to please, you know, when he would say, Dude, I'm there. I'm there. I'm coming and wouldn't show.
And another thing that was kind of common, I thought that I remember about, about LA was the, the goodbye, that was, hey, listen, I'll call you or, you know, we'll have lunch, we'll do sushi. Have your people call my people, whatever, you know, and that was a way to get out of a particular meeting with somebody, you know, in a comfortable way. But not say it's
weird, because the part where he talked about the book where the guy like, the person says, Oh, he can't meet with you. He's busy. And then you go to lunch and you see him at the center. So that's so crazy.
Well, yeah, that was Doug. That was Doug Morris. Really, really bad. I I'm not sure why he he even had it in for me. I think it was because I complained that there was one album I did for Atlantic that I complained about kicks maybe one of the kicks out that I said they weren't getting enough attention from the label. And someone told him that I had said that why I don't know why would you tell somebody that and then he was he called me up and he
was pissed. So maybe he added in for me I mean, these you know, there are people there are some people who just can't let it go carry a grudge have very bruised egos. You know, I used to care a lot about it, but that's just life. That's just life and, and I you know, I write about it because it was very serious to me at the time. I mean, I was, I couldn't believe how less important I was to these people than I had been.
Which is so weird because you made so many hit records, and then all of a sudden, it's just like, they have no use for you. It's kind of scary in a way.
Yeah. Yeah. But but that's the What have you done for me this week? And, and if you if you i Another thing that I said in the book was, you know, it's a little extreme, but it's, if you can't do something for me, then basically you just don't exist.
So there's no loyalty, there's no like, you know, some guy you worked with, gets a higher up job and says, Hey, let's bring Tom on Tom's and my buddy, I want to help him out. He's, he's good at what he does. And Tom helped me when I was, you know, an intern? There's none of that. There's not a lot of that.
No, really? No, no, it wasn't like I was a charity case. But But no, I don't think people go out of their way. You know, to help other people. I, I brought one I brought Greg Geller into Epic Records. He was at record world. And he was a friend from college. And he was a is had a brilliant mind for the whole record industry. And all, you know, he had an encyclopedia of music in his
head. And I brought him over to take my place real Lee at Epic Records, while I tried to move into the studio from behind the desk. So I helped him out. But I don't think too many people would go out on a limb for other people in in the in the record business I, I loved being in the record business. And I loved a lot of people in the record business. I had a lot of friends. And I worked with a lot
of great people. But I think honestly, that of the three entertainment industries, movies, television, and music, I think movies and television are considerably better behaved. You know, they have a little more integrity, and the music industry.
Yeah. Did you ever think during that time to when you were kind of struggling to find your way? And obviously you ended up opening into bed and breakfast? But before you did that, did you ever think because you know that a lot of the bands that you produced was not cool at the time. Did you ever think of shifting and trying to produce more like kind of like the pop rock because I feel like that would have been a good fit for you like doing like Gin Blossoms or Counting Crows or
stuff? Like that would have been a great fit, I think,
I guess but, but the deal is at that time, I think that I was so associated with corporate rock and hard rock. The old fashioned kind, you know, that was made in the 70s and 80s There was a big break in 1990 a big break with nirvana. And no, I don't think I could have just slid into that. And certainly no one else did the a&r
like Howard Benson I mean, maybe he wasn't as associated with it back that because I know that he who did he ended up it was like ended up producing some really big pop person but he started out doing like Bang tango and kind of more like the arena rock bands that you had done. So but maybe he just wasn't as known for that. At that time.
Well, I think that my association with bands like like Twisted Sister poisoned Motley Crue prevented the, like, for instance, the Seattle bands from approaching me because it would have damaged their street credibility. You know, wow, who? The guy who produced that produced Motley Crue? You know, it just wasn't edgy enough. It wasn't alternative enough? Right? It's a deal.
So then you do this. The Bed and Breakfast did anyone always wondered if anybody ever came to the bed and breakfast because they knew that you owned it and they wanted to ask you a bunch of questions about music.
Yes, they did. Yeah, yeah, they did. And I was I was happy to talk about it. I mean, it's fun to talk about it. I didn't want to go back to it but but I you know, I enjoyed talking about it as much as I enjoyed writing the book. They did that we had we had we had people like that And then we had some really nice celebrities. And that was that was fun too, then I could ask the questions.
That's yeah, that's really cool. I had a question too about like, because you know, nowadays everything's written on phones and things like lyrics and things. But back then when you were recording what did bands right there lyric? Did they ever come in with like notebooks and things? Or like because I know like, I heard the story, the warrant cherry pie. Like the lyrics are written on a pizza box. Like, was there weird stuff like that, that you saw?
Um, yeah, but they would have lined up probably in notebooks that everyone had a notebook? Pretty much. We didn't have machines, then we didn't have you know, you. You couldn't write anything on a tablet. So you wrote it out. I remember, you know, Brett was sitting behind me writing lyrics at when I told that one story about the girl. Yeah, they that's what would happen. And then they would hand hand the lyrics to me and I would transcribe them onto another page the way I wanted to
deal with them. When we were doing vocals.
That anyone that I'm surprised that nobody would like, lose one of those notebooks or so like the Nicki six never, like, on the heroin binge, or whatever, like Boston notebook or something like Oh, shit, all the songs I wrote for the album are on a bus somewhere.
Yeah. It never happened. It you know, it just didn't happen. I I'm not sure why. But that like
it. Like we said he must have been one of the most functional heroin. I mean, he wrote a frickin book, The heroin diaries, diaries. I think I got it somewhere while he was on heroin. I mean, that's, that's crazy to think of to that he was writing all that stuff while he was
on heroin. Well, that's why a lot of that wasn't accurate.
Right? That's what you That's what you said. So you guys still haven't made peace on on that thing? Because that came out later, right? Or no, that was
deal. The deal was that the heroine diaries was actually reviewed in the New York Sunday Times Book Review, which is as good as it gets. And I was amazed at that. And I bought it and read it. And it talks shit about me. You know, he claimed to have produced all of Vince's vocals. He, you know, he may have coached bibs, but that it was completely wrong. He talked about my, you know, making notes about picking up ballet slippers, something like that. It was just ridiculous for
my daughter. And I wrote a letter to the New York Times Book Review, and I said, I was there. This is fiction. You know, it's just ridiculous. I mean, how could you, you actually write a book? And remembering how could you remember what you did when you were high on heroin?
Right. And so then when he calls later, and does he apologized, does he take it back and say, No, you're right. That didn't happen? Or is he just say like, sorry, I wrote that or like, what?
We didn't talk about that specifically? I did say I was interested in coming down to Madison Square Garden, to see your final show, you know, because this was the last tour, the final tour, the breakup tour. And he joked about and he said, Yeah, come on down. I know the bass player. And, and I and I emailed him afterwards, or I phoned him afterwards. And I said, Who do I see about tickets? And I never heard from so he did what he had to do, you know, to fulfill the requirements of the 12 step
program. But you know, he didn't I don't think he really wanted to mend fences. He was pissed off really pissed off and embarrassed I think about the letter I wrote, because I you know, I kind of rained on his parade.
But then he kind of like wrote like, a pretty nasty letter after that. To write his response. That was pretty crazy.
Yeah, with a with a few veiled threats in there. Yeah, I'll I'll
Oh, expose you for all these things that we did back in the day. And
that's right. And, well, you can read it all online. It's all old news. I think I defended myself adequately.
Yeah. Is there anyone that you still do keep in touch with From the bands that you said, you talk to 10 occasionally not anything else.
Yeah, I talked to Ted, occasionally he sends me music. You know, I was in touch with the guys who wrote the endorsements on the back, but Ricky rocket and Bunny, Carlos, and occasionally, you know, if I saw the guys from poison, I'm sure, you know, it would be enjoyable. Most of the, most of the people that I really enjoyed and who enjoyed our friendships, were in bands that didn't make it. That they were the they were
the good guys. Really. I don't think that I think that, you know, if he if you, if you take a band, that's, that's really big, and that has enjoyed a lot of success, I think there's a pretty good chance that there's one guy in that band who's who's, you know, responsible for most of that success, who is willing to prioritize success over many other human values?
Wow, that's really fascinating. Kind of sad. It's, it's, I mean, we're really sad at the same time if that's if that's indeed true.
Well, they're, you know, I don't know. It's, it's, it's the Hollywood animal. You know, like agents, you know, talent agents, and
who are the bands that you like? I know, because I think the I didn't realize this. Did you do an album with Tortora?
Oh, I did. Yeah. I didn't mention that book. I kind of forgot about that.
Yeah, guys. I think they're underrated.
I can't remember the album. I honestly
think it was called Revolution day. I believe it's the one in 94.
Probably, it was probably after 90. I did it at Art Studios, which is the really famous studio. Yeah. Um, where was it Memphis? Right.
Yeah, I think so. That's where they're from.
Yeah. You know, Beale Street. Yeah. I did that. Yeah, you're right. I did that. I I actually didn't I wasn't. I didn't remember that album.
I think because I think it said in the book that that was the last album that you made. And then that's the first time that you had like, nothing. You're gonna open up a sandwich shop. But then the bed and breakfast.
Yeah. Yeah, well, I you know, the last album I made the last project I did was the was rock star in the movie.
All right. Yeah. Cuz you came out of retirement to do that? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, he was
like, my cats hungry.
Yeah, my cats are. There's clon at the doors, too. So we'll wrap this up. But thank you so much for doing this great stuff. Great stories. I loved it all. Else you want to promote or add here? I mean, what does the book come out? Do we have a release date for it?
The book comes out in November 21. You know, the, the reviews, the few reviews and the feedback I've had are all very positive. I'm really gratified by that. I think people were surprised that I could write I
really enjoyed it. And I it's hard for me to read books because I get bored but you don't get bored reading this book, every chapter. Your story, the band's stories. It's all fascinating to me.
Good That's great to hear really very gratifying for me to hear everyone says they kind of went right through it that it flows and and they they they find that they're reading much more than they planned to read at each city. So
right yeah, well especially like once I got to the Motley Crue stuff I was like, oh god and the Guns and Roses although those those parts are so fascinating and the poison that's the stuff I really love but all cheap trick the you know how you grew up? You got to see Elvis or sorry, you got to see the Rolling Stones. I mean, you tell me you just you've done some really cool stuff. So
I had a good I had a really fortunate and interesting musical life. Mostly because I was in New York for six years at school. Yeah. You know, and then live in New York for eight more years after that. And then went to LA I mean, a lot of music in those two places.
Absolutely. Very cool. Well, people should get the book and then are you gonna be doing some more podcasts and stuff or you need some I know all the podcasters that would love to have you so if you want to do more I can probably make a recommendation.
jour i love to talk about about the book. I love to talk about the subject. In the book. Yeah, I've done a lot of I've done a lot of interviews, a lot of podcasts. And I've got one TV. Presentation, some one, one TV, probably allied zoom, and a couple 30 Radio 10 minute interviews and a lot of stuff. Wow, very cool. growing interest in the book, which is
nice. Yeah. Very nice. Well, thank you so much for doing my podcast. Thanks for writing an amazing book. Thanks for all your musical contributions over the years. I really enjoyed listening to all your music.
That's great. Great to hear. And thank you. It was really it's really interesting.
Absolutely. All right. See, Tom. Okay. Bye. Bye. Thank you for taking the time to listen to the full podcast episode. Please help support our guests by following them on social media and purchasing their products, whether it be a book, album, film, or other thing. And if you have a few extra dollars, please consider donating it to their favorite charity. If you want to support the show, you can like share and comment on this episode on
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