I know you're a rock guy. So I went to I went Candlebox this time. Okay, I
interviewed the singer
that Kevin Martin. You did. Okay, awesome.
Yeah. Yeah, I'm price. Yeah, it'll actually so I'd actually had a couple of Seattle people. I try. It was very close to getting Jerry Cantrell last minute they're like, No, he's not gonna do but I had Kevin Martin from Candlebox I had the drummer of the Melvins, who was also technically in Nirvana for like a short time. Tad Doyle who's in a band called tad there was a singer of this band called Sweetwater I'm trying to think what other Seattle people have
had. There's, there's I feel like I'm forgetting a couple but yeah, those are those are a few of them. But yeah, I haven't been able to get anything like the big like Nirvana's or Allison chains or Soundgarden people. That would be fun.
Yeah, that would be good. Yeah, Dave. Dave Grohl is on my bucket list, too. I've not seen the Foo Fighters and I was gonna go
I literally just saw them the first time ever.
Did you really? Yeah, they were really good. I've heard I've heard they do a great show. So maybe I think they're gonna tour next year. Oh, they already done well, they're doing they're doing a run. And then I think they're doing a bigger expanded touring next year. I think. I think this one was kind of like a smaller, not smaller venues. But smaller run.
That makes sense. Yeah. The, the new drummer is phenomenal. Josh Freese and I guess he's picked up a bunch of bands. I think he was in tool or what's the other the other side project? Yeah, I think he was in that he's, he's, he's amazing. So yeah, I
don't remember who was other ones. I know. He was like, they they landed someone great to replace Taylor. So yeah. Yeah. what a what a what a crazy, I think Taylor was what 50. So
it's crazy when these people are like in their 40s and 50s. And they die of, like, drug related thing. So I'm just I think like, just being in my 40s and just trying to like have more than like three alcoholic beverages. It's like stressful on my body. So I can't imagine like mixing in pills and other shit. Like, it just seems like a crazy idea.
Well, in so and we can even talk about this during the interview, because my music experience is limited. But it's thanks to our mutual friend John granary with Shinedown. And so I've actually was able to go out in the road last year about eight shows with them. I did two shows about two weeks ago. So I did a real short run, as well. But I think a lot of it comes down to the lifestyle. Everyone thinks it's so glamorous, you're a rock star, you're a rock star for two hours out of 24 hours.
And if you don't have shows back to back, it's even less time. And I think these guys just you know, they come off that high. And then they're stuck in a hotel room or they're on a bus. And so they want to get that feeling of euphoria again, and unfortunately, there's a lot of enablers that are over the years been like, well, you need this pill, this will make you feel good again, and they fall for it.
Right? It's just a matter of do you want because I heard there's a difference. Some people they get off stage and they're like, Okay, like I'm exhausted. So just to show I need some to pet me up. Or it's like, Oh, I'm so amped up from the show. Now I need something to calm down and relax. For Yeah, kind of weird. Yeah, all right. Well, yeah, we're recording some if we cut that part out if you want if you want to still I
don't know. Unless I like massively swear like crazy. Keep an eye which I don't whatever, keep it all in. So now okay.
Yeah, this stuff's interesting. I just kind of thing that comes out of my mouth. These are, you know,
I deserve whatever comes after. I'm 46. If I don't know how to say, shut up, dude, then too bad.
Yeah. Is that something you ever worry about? I mean, even I know, like, at our levels, like, I'm not really anything and you're not huge or anything, but like, even still just having any sort of anything in the public eye. You kind of worry, or just even if you're not in the public eye, just having a reputation on social media. I feel like you could say something that, you know, get you cancelled from the family reunion, like, Oh, don't invite him. He's an anti Vaxxer or something, you know,
it's weird. 1,000%. So yes, I fully agree with everything you just said, Yeah, we live in this hyper sensitive time in human history where some people can go out there and say anything they want without fear of consequence. And then I think a lot of people are like, Man, I don't want to piss off this person or I don't want to piss off that person. Or, like from my vantage point, I love to write, and I don't want to piss off a potential sale. Doesn't mean I put anything false out
about myself. But it does mean I have to go hmm, should I really talk about politics? Should I really talk about vaccinations, you know, and I kind of have to put through a filter sometimes of knowing that, depending on what you say, you could alienate half your potential audience.
Exactly. Yeah. Which is a worry about that too. But especially, it's interesting with podcast because I like it to be kind of unfiltered. And I like I like having different opinions. I think that's what the podcast is like, I think that is the place where you can discuss politics in a respectful way. I want to hear from both sides. But yeah, I think it's like sometimes like, I'm like, oh, boy, like, people see that I
had Ted Nugent on my show. And they're like, automatically, they just, there's a judgement there already. But right. I mean, they don't know I've had people that a lot of the people want musicians I interview and comedians, especially are very liberal. So I've had the other side too. And, and it's interesting, because I think people want to put other people in a box, you know, of conservative or liberal, and that they're all this certain
way. But like, if you get down and talk to people and just have a conversation, most people aren't. They're just trying to get by, and they're just trying to help people. They're all mostly good on both sides. So it's kind of weird.
Fully agree. Yeah, there's that echo chamber effect out there that it's so polarized. And people think, well, if you're if you voted for Biden, you've got to be dementia like him, and you must be the enemy. Or if you voted for Trump, you know, you've got to be this horrible person that will do anything at any cost. And I think the vast majority of people that voted for either of those two candidates are actually probably fairly similar. They just maybe have, you know, differences on certain
things. But could they sit down
and families that are the that are the loudest?
And then they're the ones that get the attention? Yeah, fortunately, because of the algorithms
on social media, and I'm learning this too, because with a podcast, like if I don't talk about I feel like I've I don't have like a crazy guest on or we don't talk about something. Like, especially with the rock stuff, like if they don't gossip, or like, say something outrageous. Nobody cares. It's really right. Yeah. song structure and, and writing a song and like, you know, your creative inspiration and things
like that. Or like You're like I think I find stuff like inspiration and you know, people's stories like how they went from a you know, they were growing up poor or whatever. Now, there are big rocks, or I find that that path. Fascinating, but like, it seems like if I post clips, like something, something like that inspirational, nobody cares. It's really weird.
Totally. So totally understand that. Yeah, I'm the same way I like to see. You know, you'd like to see the underdog story you'd like to see someone that started when I was out last year, and I only met him once or twice backstage, but Jelly Roll was opening for Shinedown. Wow. And you know, totally cool person to meet. He actually went first time I met him he called me Mr. Bishop. And I was like, Whoa, that's my dad. No, no, no, no, please don't
call me Mr. Bishop. But he has one of those stories of someone that really is a youth, got himself in a lot of trouble, made some very poor choices, you know, spent quite a lot of time in jail. And you look at him now he's completely turned his life around in the sense of on the on a better path, and inspiring
people. And I see clips, you know, on social media and stuff, and he's going to detention centers, and he's talking to these kids that are we're on the same path he was on and telling them, Hey, there's another way you can you can do this. And so using the fame that he's achieved, for something quite remarkable.
Wow, that's amazing. I didn't know that. About him. That's really fascinating. I love that kind of stuff. It's interesting, too, with the whole like, and I hate the term canceled culture, but whatever you want to call it. We're I think the worst is when we it's one thing if somebody says something inappropriate or does something, especially if it's illegal, then yes, they should face the consequences.
But I hate this, like, hey, let's dig up things in people's history and past and say, Look at this terrible thing this person did, because it's interesting. I'll try to share if I can find that I saw this meme today. And it was just I really, I kept thinking about was at the grocery store. And I was like, I really liked this. It's okay, here it is. It says cringing at your past just means you have improved as a person.
I'm like, that's spot on. Like, because that's what I look at my past I go, Oh God, why did I do like, I've kind of canceled myself. I'm like, Yeah, I've done so much stupid stuff. But you grow as a person is by learning from your mistakes.
Nobody lives a life that's just right along the path that doesn't ever say anything offensive, or I mean, heaven forbid they could put a chip which I think Musk is working on will put a chip in your head and they can hear what you think because I think a lot of these people that are canceling other canceling other people and pontificating about how great
you should be. Yeah, they're probably you know, walking on the street going, I'm better than that person or look at that piece of trash or, or God knows what they're probably saying. It inside their head, they might not say it with their mouth. But, you know, it gets to be a fine line when you're judging people internally, you just don't have the courage to say it maybe out loud. And I don't know.
And that's what's so fascinating. I feel like, that's kind of just like a microcosm for our society. Right now, there's a lot of that going on, especially with the politics and stuff. And I'll be fair to both sides here, because I'll
give you two examples. Like, you got the Lauren Bogart thing where she's, you know, she's saying all this family value stuff, and we need to, you know, set examples for our kids off, then she gets caught in a play, you know, get her boobs, grabs, and hand jobs and all this stuff, do all this crazy stuff, right? So you got her. And then you got people like Pelosi who are saying, like, Oh, these evil rich people, we need to, you know, go after them. And they're too greedy, and they need to pay
their fair share. But then she's doing all this crazy stock stuff on the side and getting rich herself. So it's like, why can't we all just admit, hey, you know what, it feels good to get your boobs grabbed in a play. And also, I like money. Money's great. Like we you know, instead of judging other people for being too rich or too horny, like why can't we all just say, You know what, we're all human. We all make mistakes.
Right? I mean, I 100 100% 100%? Well, the politician wise, though, it's interesting, because I think, and I've studied politics a lot. Obviously, I write my first body man, the first one that came out was a political thriller, Ransom daughters more of a suspense, kidnapping type thing. And there's not really much politics. It's also very short. It's a novella, so didn't have a chance to dive into it. But from a political standpoint, I've studied it a lot. And I've gotten a lot more jaded as I've
gotten older. But you know, when it started off, you know, hundreds of years ago now, and it realized it was long time ago, but it wasn't a job. It was really now, people might have gotten to politics, because they could help their farm or help their law practice or whatever. Absolutely. I don't think that they walked around perfect human beings. But they were in Washington wasn't in Washington at first, but they were in the, you know, the capitol for very short periods of time they came
in did their job. And their main income was from whatever their way of life was. Now, complete 180 degrees, people go into Washington with very little money, comparatively. And you know, 20 years later, they come out and they're worth 50 million or 100 million. It's like, how do you do that on $160,000? Salary? Well, maybe you know what this what's going to hit on the stock market, or maybe there was a Congressman, I can't remember his name. He got
arrested and charged. They found stacks of money in his freezer in DC years ago with a gold coins and stuff in his maybe it might have been gold coins, too. But it was just as he that's where he piled his money that was you know, from illicit gains, right? Yeah, for money.
And I don't think I mean, again, I'm gonna say I bet you that's going on both sides. I'm sure there's some good people that don't play that game. But I think a majority of them do play the game. And I think we'd be shocked if we only hear like snippets here and there and this guy went down and this guy goes down, but I bet a lot of them just get away with it. And it's kind of one of those things where they both sides kind of look the other way. I mean, I don't know, I
could be wrong. Maybe I'm jaded, but it definitely seems like there's some shady stuff going on. I wish that would they just have term limits. I think I think both sides could agree to that. I mean, do we really want the Dianne Feinstein's and the Mitch McConnell's is still there with I mean, they're clearly have issues and should be in retirement homes.
Hold on Mitch McConnell? Yeah. I mean, he just freezes like this for about 20 minutes. still stays
in and he hasn't really stepped down. Like back in the NSA like back in the day with the scandals and saying like the Lauren bover like, you're done like you're gonna step down. And it's like, she's like, No, I'm I'm still here. Oh, my God.
Well, there's the Republican guy. I can't remember his name. Not king. He's a younger guy out in New York City there. He's under investigation. We're like his whole past was fraudulent. Oh, yeah. Buddy, George.
Something. I forget his name. Yeah, Santos. Maybe
Santos. Yeah, I think that's
it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But instead of saying, hey, you know what? I lied. Hey, I kind of fudged the truth. I really wanted to serve my people and all that. Now these people go all in and say, this is this is horrible what they're doing to me they're attacking me viciously. I haven't done anything wrong. And it's like, doesn't look that way. So yeah.
That's the thing. I think it's it
goes back to the extremes. And it would be nice if the parties could call out their own their own bullshit and within the parties and they can say, You know what, this this person, isn't she they're one of our members, but we don't like what they did. And And yeah, that that would that would be nice to see that. i My slogan
for politics. What I would love to see is make politics boring again, because five years ago, I didn't know who the You know, all these Congress, people were Senators or attorney generals, and I didn't know any of this shit. I mean, I knew the President and I knew the vice president. I don't even know know if I knew all the governor's like I lived in Arizona. I don't know if I knew the governor was I mean, that's how uninvolved I was because I
didn't give a shit. And now it's like, but I also feel like the world is so crazy right now you kind of have to pay attention or it's going to you like, I don't know, like, I'm just scared. So I'm always like, wondering like, Okay, what's going to happen next, and I'm watching the news a lot more than once before I just didn't. I was like, yeah, things life is fine. Who cares?
Right? So I was during COVID, I lived in South I live in North Carolina now, like not far from where I was. But during COVID, I was middle of going through separation stuff. And I was in South Carolina. I knew who the governor was. It was a Republican guy, which I've always leaned Republican, I've changed over the years, I'm probably more libertarian now. But I don't even know that I voted for him. When I was there. I couldn't even tell you probably probably not. Who
knows, I didn't care. I just knew who he was and thought, whatever. He's just some old Republican, then COVID hit. And his response during COVID was very much like, Hey, you have personal freedom, we're not going to tell you, you can't go to this place, or this place has to shut their doors. And his name is Henry McMaster, who's still the governor down in South
Carolina. But my respect for him grew just because he wasn't doing some overreaching, and that no matter what side people fall on COVID, or vaccinations or any of that stuff, I appreciate the fact that he was like, Hey, we're gonna let you make your own choices, your grown adults. And because it was, you know, so strange that one store would require a mask or would have these stipulations, and then you could walk literally into the next
store, and there was none. It was like, all the virus isn't going to choose which one, it's gonna, like, Go and wear everything. And it was just such a bizarre time. But McMaster for his credit, was pretty was pretty good on how he handled it. In my opinion, of course, opinions are
well, that's the because that's the thing is like,
I know a lot of people who were more liberal, who were not pro locked down in vaccine and all that stuff. But then there weren't some that were very pro vaccine and all that stuff. And they felt like that you didn't care if you didn't get the vaccine that you were killing grandma on all this. And I think some people flipped and now but there's still some people that are still into all that. Getting the multiple boosters and things and
it was a weird time. And you're right, it was so inconsistent different states, different things. And then even here, it was like we have the reservations and then the reservations as federal land. So they were very strict. And it was a very big issue on the reservations. For whatever reason, I think some some places on the reservation on have running water so they couldn't wash their hands. So COVID pagina on the reservations, it
was really sad. And I don't know, I mean, I just would, that's the time where I looked and said, oh, boy, I'm so glad I am not like a governor or something like that. Because like, either way, no matter what you said, you're gonna piss people off. You're gonna said, Hey, we're locking down.
You pissed off?
People. If you said, Hey, we're not locking down. You're pissing people off. So it was like, it was just a mess.
Yeah, there's there was no way to win in that situation. I do agree. So you're in Arizona, right? Yep. Okay.
Yeah, from Washington originally. And so I had a lot of family in Washington. And, and they they were not happy a lot. It seemed like a lot of people were not happy with the governor. But he somehow he keeps winning elections. I don't know. It's interesting. I go back there. And like my hometown, Seattle, I just remember the first time I came back one time to visit for a CX game. And I was like, I saw these blue tarps. And I thought, oh, okay, like, there's some
tailgating going on already. I was like, that's really early for that. And then I looked closer. And I was like, Wait, what is that's like, can't Those are people camping? Like they're living? This is like, and then that was a thing. And now it's just gotten out of control with the homeless, it's just all over downtown Seattle. And then it's where they kind of cleaned it up for the all star game. But now, it's creeping back in and back.
And it's it's now it's starting to come down here in Phoenix. Yeah, it's just all over the country. I don't know. It's like, so I just I think about all these things. Yeah, that's like, I'm trying to, you know, again, do podcasts and live on my life, but, like, stuffs on my mind a lot. Just I feel like, it's like, I don't know if it's like the term is woke because I feel like I've woken up and I'm looking around and concerned. But it's I don't I'm not trying to say like, oh, we need to do
this. I don't know what the solutions are. I just know that. This is not the same America that I grew up in, in the 80s.
So my son is 16. And he has several adults over the years. I've told them he has an old soul, which is very true. He's a great, great young man. But he gets frustrated with me, because like Dad, you grew up. I was born in 76 is that you grew up in the 80s. The 80s was like the best decade. I've grown up in the 2020 Sounds the sucks you know, he's not. He doesn't do social media as a phone but his phone watching his more like YouTube videos for Korea. He's big into karate. He's big into
playing guitar. So he's really enjoyed, you know those activities, but he doesn't do like music wise. He doesn't listen to anything like modern last 10 years. Everything is like, pre, you know, the first first show I took him to in 2020 10. No, it wasn't 2010 Sorry. He was 10. So it was 2017. I took him to see you to Joshua Tree 30th anniversary tour in Louisville. It was great show. I had people next to me. They're looking at me. They're
like, is this a supper show? And I'm like, yeah, and they're like, you've ruined this child. How is he going to you know what comes next? So what came next was a couple years ago. Of course, COVID kind of mess things up in the sense of live music and entertainment for a good stretch. And then coming out of that first show I took them to was the Rolling Stones. I had never seen the stones. Oh yeah, I
heard you say that was
really good, though. Right?
I'm amazing. That was so freakin it was like it was up at Charlotte at the Panthers stadium. They put on one of my probably top five concerts. I've been to a lot of concerts. So just think part of it was the nostalgia of actually seeing them but it wasn't seeing a bunch of you know, geriatrics running around with with air masks and, you know, stretchers. Mick was going up and down that stage, but I would have passed out. He was hustlin and sounded good. Of course, Charlie had
just passed away. So it was the first time they had played I think it was like, show three or four since Charlie had died previous to that but show three or four without him. And then the next show I took him to after the Rolling Stones was I took him to see Bon Jovi, and I had never seen Bon Jovi. So I got floor tickets cost me an arm and a leg. And we rocked out to buy I had such a fun time. It was a Friday night up in Charlotte, kind of in between Charlotte and Greenville and
Asheville. I'm in this triangle area. We had so much fun that I didn't have him the next Monday and they were playing in Greenville. So I jumped on Ticketmaster and got another floor ticket by myself and went and because it's like, well, I've never seen Bon Jovi. I might also see them twice in four days if you know, because it was probably the last time I'll see him. How would
they sound? No, because
I know, there was a thing that came out. It might have been like 2021 Were they they was a clip of Jon Bon Jovi, and he wasn't singing that great, but I don't know. I feel like sometimes maybe they just have an off night or something. Or I don't know. How do you sound when you saw him?
So in person. It was an awesome concert. And I filmed a bunch. I'm one of those annoying people that will film stuff on my phone that I know some people despise a whole thing or just like clay? Oh, no, no, no, no, I'll just do clips here and there songs. We were like 12 rows back. So we were maybe 15 We were close. I thought it was amazing. The next night I went and played you know, after after he went back to his mom's I played up, pulled up some clips and listened. And
then I was like, holy cow. That doesn't sound as good as I remember it sounding last night. And I've talked to I've even talked to some musicians that I know about him. Yeah, John's voice is is the backup singers and everyone that's, that's, that's, you know, kind of doing the choruses and stuff, I think really helped pull it together but I don't know his voice. I just saw guns and Guns Roses back in August. And you know, that's not 1980s axle. It's 1980 slash the guitar was freaking
amazing. But actually voice had changed, but it was still the nostalgia, you know, still hearing, you know, Welcome to the jungle and November rain and mine and everything.
It's just certain songs where it's like, he just can't hit those notes anymore. It's like I mean, even even at 60% Axel though, is still probably better than most people. But I mean, the way they sang that stuff in the 80s it was like it's insane. I mean, unless you're Steven Tyler or one of those kinds of people then you can still do it but it's hard.
But even Steven so Stevens, we were supposed to see Aerosmith. Two nights actually. Tonight was because I think it was tonight or is it next Tuesday? No, it was tonight tonight was originally the scheduled Charlotte show because when I finally was able to schedule with you it was because the Aerosmith show has been
postponed till next year. And so they had to cancel most of this tour this year because the Stevens voice but the first couple nights they were playing in this tour back in early September, or whatever it was Sam he sounded solid. The clips I heard online were really good. So but yeah, for Axl, the fact that he can still talk at his age with the the the sounds that emanated from his voice every night that he played. Amazing, amazing that he still has any voice. Just yeah, just and you
have to temper it. So because we saw the Eagles again, we kind of the last year and a half it was kind of like make up for last time. So if a big band came through, we saw Garth Brooks on the Eagles. Of course, we saw a bunch of Shinedown shows I took him to those with me.
But don't you like the smaller shows better than that? Because I felt like the stadium tour, I saw Guns and Roses. I've seen some we saw the Foo Fighters. So we've seen those big shows that I really like more of the smaller club theater shows so much more. It's so much more intimate.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, the intimacy and yeah, just when you're, when you're way far back, you're just you know, you have to like, look to see them. So where you're watching the you're watching the screens. Yeah, that's
what I tell my friends. Like, because he was trying to get he can't remember what row he was in the Foo Fighters. But I said, Look, if you're not in the first like 15 or 20 rows, you might as well just buy the cheap seats, because you're gonna watch the screen
the whole time anyways, correct abs 100%.
I learned that because I bought I spent really like a lot on Paul McCartney. But we were like, I don't know, maybe 30 or 40 euros back. But I was like, wait, I'm like still just watching the screen. So it was a screen. And it was really expensive just to get that but I was like, it's almost like you either need to like the first 15 rows are like nosebleeds.
Absolutely. My son and I so that we're ending this year by going to flying to Vegas, we're going to see you too at the sphere.
Yeah, that I saw pictures of that. And videos online, it looks insane. I want to see a concert there for sure.
And we have floor tickets. So my son thinks we're going to sleep but like whether or not let you sleep overnight. I think last I saw was you can go the morning of the show at like 8am. And they'll give you a number of wristband. And then you come back at like 530. And based on your number they'll let you in because he's like, Dad, we got to get Rael. And I'm like,
I feel like even if you're in the back, I feel like it's gonna be amazing, though.
I think after all the video that's come out because I bought those tickets back in June or it's been a while and before you saw it in the videos, and actually, I've not the videos have come out I think probably if you're like second level, because I think it's like a three or four level tiered. It's almost like a Death Star. Yes, it looks like the Death Star, I think if your second tier is probably the best. So it's either going to be first or second person, you
know, up to the rail. Or you might as well be in the second row and probably the second or second section in the back would probably be best because then you'll get to see the whole Yeah,
because I feel like that's a thing where if you're in the movie theater and you have a front row ticket you're having to watch like this. And that is not fun. Like you're gonna get
don't go see striptease like that. It's not gonna hurt your neck. So
yeah, it's like to overrated a little bit of a buffer with that,
so it'll be fun. So I kind of wish I'd had but although I think the tickets back there were actually more the floors tickets were some of the cheaper tickets and maybe that's why maybe because it kind of you, you're gonna have to, you know, take your eyes off the stage to look around and see everything but um, it looks incredible. And I'll let you know once I go and tell you how it was. But it'll it'll be a good way to end our run this year. So
do you do are you a sports fan too? I thought he started with like a Broncos jersey. Is that are you a Broncos fan?
Yeah, I'm a Broncos, unfortunately, have the last couple of years. Yes. I like the Broncos. Yeah, I was out. So I stopped following much sports for years. The girl I married was not really into it. And I kind of did what a lot of guys, not a lot, but some do is they'll kind of like, Oh yeah, you don't like sports. So I kind of pulled away for a while. And then when everything kind of went south, I'm like, Man, I miss watching football or I miss, you know, going to baseball games. So not
basketball. I kind of my interest in basketball waned. Once Michael, I'm dating myself once Michael Jordan stepped away. I don't know, in the Lebron era. I've been to like two or three games. I've maybe watched NBA final years back. But what about college
basketball, because that's what I find myself. I've always really loved the March Madness. And now I just find myself even just really even more into the March Madness. But even before March Madness, just the college basketball in general, the game the games are so short and quick, and they're just so fun. They're so fast paced. It's great.
Well, and I think yes, you're completely right. And I think part of that is because those guys are hustling and they're given everything they have because they want the 100 million dollar contract, right? You get the 100 million
contract. You know, when you have fillet every night, flay doesn't taste as good after 20 Nights, you know, yeah, you know, lay once every two months, and I'll bust my ass to get that flay and I think that's what happens with collegiate sports, even like football to college. Football, to me, is a lot times much more enjoyable. And it's very fast paced.
I love the NFL. That was like when I when you say about the basketball NBA players I'm trying to remember because when I first moved down here Shaq was on the suns. I got like a free ticket to a game and I went and watched him. I forget what they called him, but they had a nickname because he was literally walking back and forth on the court. I was like, I've never seen an NBA player. Hustle so little. And I forget what they what did they call it? It was like some like derogatory
nickname for him. But it was it was so funny because he
has been calling What's that? I know they called him diesel at some point Shaq diesel. I'm trying remember all this? He's had a bunch of nicknames, though. Yeah, I don't know. I don't remember which ones were derogatory. But yeah, that would be
oh my god, he has so many nicknames. Holy cow.
He's a cool one, too, though. He's a doctor. He's gone back to his he know someone that didn't come from very much and continued as his further education and became a.he got a doctor in some sort of I think business field or something. But he is Dr. Shaquille O'Neal. Technically speaking, yeah, well, doesn't he a businessman too,
he gives a lot of he gives money back, like I saw something about how, you know, a lot of these guys, they make these really expensive shoes, and he wanted his shoes to be be able to be afforded by for my poor people. So he made them like really cheap and put them in Walmart. But he's made a bunch of money, because tons of poor people will buy his shoe. And so he's actually been really
successful with it. But also able to, you know, sell his shoes to poor people, which is kind of cool to think about it.
Well, if you can sell 5 million people a $40 shoe, you're gonna make more money than selling 5000 people a shoe that's $5,000. Right? I mean, your market, if you can go lower in that economic side, the numbers will actually work for you. Jordan probably blows that one up. Because Jordans made a bazillion dollar. Although Jordan made his billions now post NBA just selling selling the basketball team this last year, like he made like 3 billion or whatever his final cut was for that was
the show with him that with a bar about him. Matt Damon and all that was so fascinating. Like, he was so smarter as parents, whoever it was, I think was kind of his parents. My parents, yeah, doing the business dealing about the shoe and how he would take a percentage of it was so smart. I mean, like she knew he was that good. The mafia, the mom believed like that he was really
good. But it's like, how do you know that because everybody thinks they're going to be or their kids going to be the next big thing and most of our work, and but she called it,
well, I guess enough parents believe in it, one of them is going to be the one that hits. And so if you get 1000 of them that do it and you get the one that hits it like Hey, see, I knew it was gonna happen. Well, the 999 thought it was gonna happen to Yeah,
but do you think there's some that the parents know? Like, let's just take the lump sum because we're not going to sell a lot of shoes for this guy. He's gonna be out of the league in three years.
Possibly, yeah, you know, kind of depends, I guess, on their business, how they are with business and and there's there is also the other thing too, is there's just some talents out there that just rise above you know, the, the Michael Jordan's of the world, the Tiger Woods of the world. There's ones that and I think those sparks for those talents. First of all, they're made from hard work.
There's a natural ability I think there for a lot of them, but like in Tiger Woods case, his father Earl, just since he was like 18 months old, put golf club in his hand and started showing him and then made him mentally tough and like I've seen some documentaries on Tiger. And I think in some ways his dad was cruel to him. But it made him so freakin mentally tough where, you know, a golfer is going down a fairway and getting heckled they screw up
their next shot. I don't think Tiger Woods hears the voices if he does he can he can compartmentalize and block them out. But then of course, there's
a price for that, that he Yeah, he was very good at golf. But mentally off the green he was fucked up. Right. He had a pill issue and he had the sex addiction or whatever you call it. She knows beautiful wife and he had some he had some issues that he had I'd have
trouble telling Elan Hey, take a hike. You know, I'm gonna guide I ya know, well, I think part of that comes down to when someone is given such a great ability there. I think it's wired in our DNA however you want to look at it that they're going to have some sort of a flaw. And if that flaw really is a vise that is bad enough or strong enough, it can bring you down and I mean Tigers case. I think the pills were because of what he did to
himself physically. Because you know, he was came up in an era where golfers a lot of times look like me. They look like a middle aged guy. He transformed his body. He's looking like a linebacker. Yeah. And you know, he it and to do that though. He put a lot of stress with extra muscle and everything. He put a lot of stress on his back and on his legs. And then when things popped and things broke, it was almost cascading where he ran for less 10 years, there's just been one injury after another.
And he's missed eight months or a year of a season, because he's done that. And I think a lot of that came down to the torque that he put on his body. So maybe you should just stay the middle aged guy, and maybe last longer. But yeah, maybe we'll have a billion dollars, though. So, I mean,
you see these examples of people who are very successful, and they seem to be very well balanced, and they don't have all these issues. And then you see a lot of his gamble examples where people are successful. But there's all these they're dealing with all these either drug issues or divorces or, you know, some other sort of addiction issues or health issues, or obesity or whatever. Like, I mean, it's hard to be perfect, I guess.
Yeah. Well, it's like we were talking about before, I think, like from musician's standpoint, especially when they achieve a, you know, the average musician that's out there is not making much money. And they might be really talented. I go to local breweries and stuff on the weekends, and you get people up there playing guitar singing, you're like, oh, yeah, this person is really good. And they're probably making $100 for the gig.
Versus Have you ever been to Nashville, or Austin,
I have, but I've not been to them. I have been twice but I've not been down to where all the music and where you can go from one bar to another. And here like an amazing prefer, I've heard about it and seen videos, but where the amazing performance, and that person is just struggling to pay their rent, you know, they might be living in their car. And then you have Taylor Swift, who her tours generated, I think $3 billion this year alone.
Just started out Nashville planet, like coffee shops that are reversing those pictures of her where she's just like, it's like Taylor Swift, it looks like somebody just made it was like a spray paint or something like her sign. And it's like, it's crazy to see how she went from that to where she is now
where she is now. Exactly. And I think that should give people because I kind of look at that in the in the, the writing world, which the creative side I think, has a lot of crossover, whether you musician, whether you're an artist, whether you're a writer, there's a starving artists term, which is doesn't mean that one or two people are starving to do that. It's like, in general, our artists don't make a lot of
money. But then some people get to that level where they do get to be the Taylor Swift, or they get to be, you know, the Motley Crew, you know, back in the 80s. And they, they they've achieved this and you know, Stephen King for a novelist for, you know, for a past 20 years where they achieve this really high platform, and they make just a ton of money. And that's the exception to the rule.
Is that the goal for you though, is
that what you want to do like the Tom Clancy like, is that what you're trying to do? Because I know you have a day job, right? You do like finance or something you novels like, it's kind of like your side hustle. Right now.
It's my side hustle. Yeah, so the goal would be I've got multiple tiers of goals that I'm trying, and I'm trying to be really, I've always been very level headed person. And as much as I know, it's possible to be the shot and you know, kind of be that one in a million that lightning in a bottle can happen to someone that, you know, that happens to 1% of 1%. So I tried to be very light grounded of Okay, so what long term do I want to do? Well, I'd like to be able to quit my day job.
journalistic right. I mean, just to make what you're making it your day job, but doing it writing books.
I think it is realistic. It's, it is a long term goal, though, because unfortunately, unless you get a really sizable book contract, and then earn out the contract. That's the thing, people get a big contract. And they think, oh, man, I'm on Easy Street. Well, no, that's not the way the industry necessarily does, you'll get a set amount of money for submitting your manuscript, you'll get a set amount of money for when the book is released.
And then you have to earn out your contract you have to earn you have to have sales that justify before you'll ever see another dime basically. Today, yeah,
with with books the same as music, because I know obviously musicians don't make any money off record sales anymore, because of the streaming and all that but also I think, before that it was illegal downloads like so it, is there any issues with that with books? Like is there are a lot of illegal downloads and people are downloading books illegally, or it?
Yeah, it definitely happens. You don't hear about it too much where it's starting to pick up a little bit now as you're hearing a lot about AI. People taking books like say Tom Clancy is example, taking the Tom Clancy book and putting it in an AI system, and then generating Clancy s stories that are completely modeled around what Clancy did. And just putting, you know, putting Eric bishop on the title, you know, people
that's kind of crazy. It's kind of scary to think of it's very
scary and when so I've my first book that came out was through a small publisher but a traditional publishing route ransom daughter, I've put out under my own brand and there's there's we can go into it as long as story of why I did that. But when you go and do the actual setup portion like an Amazon it's one of the buttons was a I used in any part of the creation of this project or this process. Now granted, it's an honor based system, you could say no and like can't check
it because
couldn't be like if you did something with Tom Clancy and put into the AI system, wouldn't it do the same thing? Like you could check it by putting a Tom Clancy book through the AI system go oh, this, if we put the Tom Clancy book we get your book like isn't
possibly I don't know enough about it to know how they reverse engineer that. But very possibly, there could be a way to filter I know that's
how, because that one of that's how I first heard of chat. GPT was a teacher friend of mine said that. That's how they were catching kids using it because kids would write these papers. And so then they could put the book, I think they could use the book. Maybe they put it into chat GPT and it would say and that would like they would ask the question that Chad GBT and they would come up with the same paper the kid wrote, like, Oh, you got this from chat? GPT
Wow. Yeah, I've heard a little bit about that. But I've not been exposed to how it actually is happening. But it makes sense. And I mean, you know, back when I was a kid, there was ways to cheat. And people would find a way to cheat even on tests or quizzes or papers. You know, they pay an older brother to write a paper for him. So
it's crazy what
they're doing. I seen technology, AI podcasts like you can I saw, there was a there's Joe row, there's a Joe Rogan AI podcast, kind of watch. And I was like, Okay, this is it's you can tell it's aI like it's close. I mean, it looks real, and it sounds real, but it's a little too stiff and robotic. It's not the same. Like they don't laugh like humans. There's not the unpredictability and a little too structured and robotic. And hopefully it stays
that way. Because I like there being a difference, you know,
exactly. Well, the question is, Chuck is in five years will you be because look at deep, fake, fake stuff five years ago was pretty clunky. I don't know some of the stuff I've seen this year. That's like Tom Cruise, the Tom Cruise one has a real famous, deep fake, and how they've kind of perfected it. And now I mean, it looks pretty darn realistic. Yeah. And that technology's gets every moment we're talking. Technology's improving, so and we only know what's out. Now. That's true. I'm
fully prepared, mentally prepared for this whole podcast thing, just ending one day either, because I'm cancelled, because I grabbed a boob in 1994. Or, because AI takes over whatever the world ends, like, I'm ready to just if the world if this whole thing ends, and I gotta go live in the woods in the mountains. I'm okay with that. So yeah, mentally preparing for those that day, because I feel like it is coming in some way or another.
It makes you wonder, it definitely makes you wonder if, if that will I mean, just you look at all the world events and what's going on, and all the nuclear threats at this point, you're just kind of like, you know, I joke with people and say, Man, I just need to sell enough books that, you know, Indonesia, I believe has it's a big difference, either 18 or 32,000 islands, like tons of and most of them are uninhabited.
You know, I mean, I used to buy a little island out in Indonesia and put a little camp out there, because it's probably not going to get new to that far away.
Right? How much is the island in Indonesia?
Um, I've looked a couple years ago, and you know, they're not all for sale. Obviously, a lot of the government owns a lot of it. But yeah, I mean, there were some islands out there that were in the 100 Hut, multiple $100,000 range, that you know, of course, then you have to get a water source if you don't have a freshwater source. I mean, there's even just living
in like other countries. I know. I dated a girl and she she went to Thailand, and she was telling me how cheap everything was there. There's a lot of Americans that retire. And tie. Yeah,
yeah, there's a list. If you Google it, there's a list of like, the best countries to like, retire in front American social security. Yeah, if you bring in like, you know, 1600 or 2200, and Social Security, you go to this country, and you get like a three bedroom apartment for under $50. My uncle retired $100 a week for great food. And,
yeah, yeah, my uncle retired in Panama on and it was just him and his wife living off social security. So I mean, you can do it,
you can be done. Absolutely. And, you know, I mean, it's definitely sounds like it's probably not about especially the way I was talking to a friend earlier today, we're talking about costs and I mean, I can remember you know, I'm getting I can remember sound like I'm old but and you walk in a grocery store now and one bag is at least 25 bucks. It doesn't matter if there's meat in there, just dairy, whatever. You better
count on $25 A bag, minimum. And it's just like, yeah, and I got two kids and when they're with me for a five day stretch or whatever in the sun, Are we do week on week off? Man my food budget for the month is pretty much taken care of within like a week and a half, two weeks of having the kids and because my son you can't he can't consume enough food. My daughter is not that way. But she also doesn't want you know, Froot Loops. She wants something good. Don't
blame her. So it's, you know, those weeks that I don't have them kind of like, I'll just buy a package chicken and live off this for a couple of nights. And I'd love to
be just like mobile and like off like just have one of those you ever seen those Earth rumors? Yes, those are so I want like an earth rumor and just to be mobile and kind of off grid and, you know, maybe like farm some things somehow, or hunt or something or buy some food and then like, but if something goes crazy, I can get in that thing and just take all my life belongings and just leave and be to the next town or whatever.
Yeah. Yeah. And I think with COVID going on, that was definitely a lot of conversations that happen with people of what do we do? And it's like, and I did the same thing. But the truth is, if you're having that conversation, and you're not prepared, man, if something were to happen before the end of the podcast tonight. Good, good. Good luck. The grocery store only cleared out within a day. Yeah, it will be empty. By the by the by the late evening. I mean, it's just Well, yeah.
And I had I had this author on, William, what is it kind of was his last name, forts Fortson, or something like that? Yeah. One
second after? Yeah, yeah. Yes. And he was actually up in Black Mountain about 45 minutes from me. I've never met him. But yeah,
yeah, he's a real nice guy. But yeah, he's real smart, and very smart PhD. And I mean, he told me about this EMP thing. And he's like, look, I hope that in, you know, 100 years or 50 years, or 20 years or whatever, people look back at me and say, Oh, wow, that guy was a total Kook. And he was totally wrong. And he's like, that's what I hope he's like,
but I hope I'm not right. And I hope that an EMP Denver does happen, because if an EMP thing happens, it's like, you know, all your electronics are useless. And that's how we get around in the world like the trucks Wouldn't that can't bring the food wouldn't work. Right. It's scary. So refrigeration
for those trucks? The the refineries for the gas? Yeah. So I've read, I've read his books. And because I have my second novel, so I wrote my first novel in 2014, didn't get published, wrote the second book, and the second book focused on an EMP. And so I did a lot of research on it. Probably not to the degree that William did. But you know, I researched it a lot. And I mean, I think it's like, 90% death rate in the last in the first year for America, you know, just
Yeah, crazy numbers. And you think, oh, it's not really that bad. It's like, well, if you're diabetic, if you have any kind of health issues, your medicines, as soon as they run out, and that pillbox, they're, they're gone, there will be no more medicine coming to you. And if you don't have food in your, you know, in your pantry, there will be no more grocery stores will be empty within two or three days of everything. But the shelving and people will probably take the shelving for, you know,
and then how many people kill each other, because they're fighting over, like, what they want your food and you have food, and then you get shot. And yeah, it's just a mess.
I have a real quick funny story about that. I have a good buddy, who I'll actually get to see in the next couple of weeks, he retired on a fifth group spent most of the last 20 years that I've known him, and I knew him before he was in the military, but spent the last 20 years pretty much in the Middle East. And they were when he was active duty, they were at some kind of a Christmas party for someone in the in the Special
Operations world. And they're at this party, and I guess the wife of one of these guys is a doctor and so she's up talking to these guys, you know, trying to act like she knows her stuff. And she starts telling my buddy that, you know, my husband and I are preppers you know, we've got this, this this and she's listing off everything she has. And she goes, what do you have in case you know, that shit hits the fan? And he's like, I have nothing. And she goes, Well, you
should know better. Why would you do that? He goes, Why would I have anything? She goes because you want to survive? He's like, Yeah, I'd freakin come kill you and take your stuff. And it'd be easy. So I don't need to prep. And she said this woman's face just turned white. And she wrote she was smart. She's a doctor, she realized immediately. Oh, yeah, if you can't defend all that stuff that you've bought, right?
What What good is it someone will kill you to survive, or to take your stuff and use it to monetize? And that's why I want my island and I need also then I'm very modern around my island and cheese. I'm gonna have to sell a lot of frequent books.
Yeah. Well, so
is that the point with the book, is it? Is this right? I know. You said something like you when you write, it's therapeutic for you. Is it? Is it just you writing it for yourself? Are you writing to sell the books? Or is it is there a part of the book is to is to maybe bring awareness to some of the issues that you talk about? And I don't want to give it away because there's some stuff that's like a twist at the
end. Like one of the issues you bring up is is ransom and kidnappings that you say in the book that it's on the rise. Is that true?
Yeah. When I did my research for it several years back I was reading a lot of stats especially overseas, where kidnapping, you know, it's it's something that you don't hear much of in the US media. But you also have to remember the the filter that everything's put through in the US media. I mean, if you are in it's not political, it sounds like it is.
But I don't care if you put on Fox News or MSNBC or CBS nightly news, you can end up hearing all the same stories, the spins on them are put a little different, but you don't hear a lot of what's really occurring in the world. So if your news sources are outside the United States, you start reading stuff and go man, kidnapping, you know, for money is how plenty of organizations survive, and they're not out there. And in my book, they're asking for 20 million euros, asking for a lot
of money. They're doing that because this guy can afford it. So they can hit him up for a lot of money. And if he loves his daughter enough, and they scare him enough, he'll pay it. And other parts of the world where the kidnapping is, it's not like it's happening to every other person, you know, but it's prevalent. And, you know, they're kidnapping, they're asking for much smaller amounts of money, because the people will pay it, and it makes the problem go away, get the person
back. But yeah, it's most certainly it's not something we necessarily have to deal with here in the United States. But other countries? Yeah, for sure. It's it, it probably ebbs and flows based on if they can, it's kind of like the, you know, the drug industry, the drugs, you know, if something if they legalize marijuana, United States, okay, let's move on to you know, another drug, let's move on to something else that's going to, you know, make us a
lot of money, basically. So the bad people pivot very quickly to continue to make money and thrive, whatever their whatever their vices that they're selling, or taking or whatever. Yeah, so yeah, for the books. I definitely like to have a message out there. Definitely right. Now, not so much therapy, but there's lots of stories that have been in my head for years.
And so that to have the outlet now, to be able to actually get them published and get positive feedback from from readers definitely is been very rewarding. Money wise, yes. It's not a charity. Although if you were to tell me, any book I write is going to just break even you're not going to make any money. Are you going to stop writing? I would say no, I don't do it for the money. I've sure would enjoy to have it be my full time occupation. I'd love to be able to afford my island
out in you know, Indonesia. But now money is one of those things where it's necessary. And you I like comfort, I like going to concerts, I like traveling, I was I flew down to Florida two weekends ago to go see Shinedown I liked that I had the ability to just catch a flight Saturday morning, you know, found a cheap, discount airline flight down there, got a hotel, got a rental car, and I flew back Sunday. So to be able to do that I have to be able to afford that. But it's not my central
focus in life. It's more of the experiences, the people that I surround myself with. And so if I can sell books, or do well, my job, my nine to five job, and that affords me that ability to travel or to go to the concerts or go out to a nice restaurant, then, you know, definitely definitely much more enjoyable than sitting home. Poor eating ramen noodles watching television. Right?
Well, so do you think that you can potentially get this book or some of the other ones into a movie or TV adaptation? Is that the dream because is that how most authors really get the big money and kind of get set is like getting something like I know Jack Carr. He's got a ton of books, but then the one they did the Amazon series, I'm assuming he got paid a lot for that.
Um, I'd say it's generally speaking the dream but again, in Jack's a good example, I know Jack, I was able to unfortunately I met him before he was poor. He took off. So I
promoted one of your books. I saw a picture with him holding up your book. And it was I was like, Yeah, awesome. Yeah, he did my show too. He's super nice guy.
Super great guy. Yeah, he was actually kind of promote the body man when it came out. He sent a tweet out last week, I guess. Ransom daughter has been out for a week. Now. We're taping this on a Tuesday came out last Tuesday. And he was kind enough to tweet out that the book was there. I had someone Wednesday morning, messaged me and said, Hey, I saw Jack cars post and I bought your book. And I'm like, I'd sent Jack a message and said, Hey, you sold one copy for me. How about yeah, definitely
before he took off?
Yeah. You know, I was at a book conference up in New York City back in 2017 or 18. I think it was 20. I don't know 2017 or 20. There was 2018. And I hadn't read the terminal list yet. The terminal lists had just come out maybe a month before the conference or there abouts close about maybe a couple of months. And so he was known but he wasn't the gem car that's kind of known now. And that was a happy hour, kind of like, after the conference panels and all that rover, it
was just drinks. There it was I went up introduced, but he actually knew who I was before I could get my name out. He knew me, just from social media, and we just started chatting. And then by the end of the weekend, we exchanged numbers. And you know, and then as he took off, it was kind of cool to say, Yeah, you know, I know his real name, I've been able to interact with him. And he's been super encouraging. What's interesting, and I'll tell I won't tell his
full story on it. But how he got his movie deal, which he's talked about in the podcast, and I've even had a brief conversation with him about it is, you know, like you're asking is that the dream? For the most part, people love it. Most authors, though, that sell their book rights don't make much money, that that's not the way to go to Easy Street, some do
some make a lot. But it's not uncommon for it to be, hey, we'll buy your book rights and you get $5,000, either, you know, Hollywood will flow, the money will turn the spigot on, but they also are good at you know, trying to get a deal to and, you know, if someone's willing to take a little bit amount of money, because they need it's, they'll gladly, you know, stiff amount of $100,000,
all day long, probably. But for Jack, what happened was when he was in the military, one of the guys that was tied up in the seals or whatever, with him was coming out. And he met with Jack in his office, because Jack was a commanding officer at the time. And, you know, Jack basically said to the guy, you know, what, what's your future? What do you plan to do? And he
just gave him advice. I think he gave him some contacts of, hey, if you're interested in that, maybe you need to call this person, and then met with them. And then pretty much didn't think about that conversation again. And then years later, several years later, his books coming out. And this guy reaches out to him and says, Hey, Jack, do you remember me? Oh, yeah, of course. And he goes, Do you remember what you said to me when I left the military? And
he's like, No clue. And so this guy recounted to Jack their conversation. And he said, that conversation set me up for where I then started a career in, you know, the movie industry. And you know, Jack's like, well, that's great. And the guy said, Can I get a copy of your book? I'd like to give it to someone and Jack's like, Yeah, sure. Who do you want to give it to? Chris Pratt, this guy had gotten in
with Chris Pratt. And that connection, basically paying it forward of, of helping this person and not helping them because you wanted something, helping them because it was the right thing to do, is what you know, because people like to say, Well, Jack car got lucky. I don't believe in luck. I think Jack car in so many other people plant a seed, they do something. And that seed grows. Now some people plant seeds and nothing happens. Absolutely. But a lot
of that. Yeah, me too. And it was that contact of what happened with with that person that eventually bloomed into him getting you know, a deal with, you know, Chris Pratt, Chris Pratt bought the rights. And then when Jack and this is where Jackson usual in many ways. But not only did they buy the rights for his book, but Him and you know, Chris established a good rapport. And Chris actually brought jack on to be like writing scripts, be an executive
producer. So I actually was able to keep his voice in the story, because that's the thing common with Hollywood, you know, they buy the body man or they buy ransom daughter. They can strip almost every portion of what Eric Bishop throw out of that because they've bought the rights. And that's why some authors, I don't know if you know, Brad Taylor is he's another former military. He was
Delta Force. And he's not sold last time I talked to him or heard, he's not sold the rights to his pike Logan character, because he knows unless he gets creative control, which is extremely rare. They can do anything they want with his character. And for the limited amount of money they're going to pay him. He wants to have that control of what Pike is. And so Jack's been fortunate where he's been able to maintain a lot of that
strats good. Yeah, cuz Hollywood is definitely ruining a lot of things right now with their just weird agenda. I don't I find just some of the stuff they're putting out. It's just complete garbage, especially with all the remakes and it's bizarre so yeah, I would definitely want some kind of control if it was, unless it was a studio that I trusted that I looked at some of their other work and said yes, you guys have
done a good job. Yeah, if you just finally sold your, your creative, you know, hard work and all that process to somebody and then they just butcher it. That would be that I know Stephen King was mad. Some of his stuff. He was not happy with what they did to it. And I think one of the movies like he directed which is really weird to think about, but yeah, I mean, it's it's a weird it's a weird game. Same.
Yeah. Well, that's yeah, that's. So it's one of those businesses where yes, I think the dream is for a lot of authors, what ends up happening with a lot of authors is they want to be able to be in a position where they can write full time. And that you know that not the dirty secret, it's completely out there and open is the secret is to be able to be a full time writer and have that pay your bills and live a comfortable life is extremely
difficult. I was telling someone about it recently, because I think it was penguin and Simon and Schuster, two of the big five, were going to merge. And the government brought an antitrust suit against them in one where they weren't allowed, basically, they ended up not merging. But in the course of that suit suit coming out, a lot of the books were obviously exposed of sales. And the sales numbers that came out, were not like, wow, this is an amazing
business. It was 10 or fewer books, on average, sell over a million copies. 500 books, on average, sell over 100,000 copies. The average published author sells 500 copies of their book, you know, the average self published sells, like 50. Just numbers that you're just laying lower than I thought, oh, yeah, well, on the self published especially, you've got to remember, Amazon's a double edged sword, and I'm using them for my own purposes, I'm putting, you know, I put grandson daughter out pride.
It's not only under Amazon, but pride. And that's where most of my efforts are going. Anyone can upload a book to Amazon with minimal effort. I was telling this I was actually on a podcast last night. And I was I was telling the host, that if I put my mind to it this week, I probably couldn't. I don't know that I could write something as big as ransom daughter 35,000 words, but say a short story. I could write a short story between now and Friday. No problem. Would it be something
that should be published? 100%? Absolutely not? Could I Yes? Could I then create a cover on Canva? Pro? Could I format it? I already got formatting software to format any type of novel I want? And could I upload it to Amazon by Saturday and have it for sale by Monday and charge 299 399 Whatever, for an e book. All day long? I could do that. Doesn't mean I should do it. But so the entry point for Amazon is so easy that hundreds of 1000s of people a year put books up.
And so the most of them only sell 50 copies.
Yeah, cuz you figure there's probably a lot of people that sell two or three or four and then some sell a couple 100 You start averaging all those together. And and that's where I was blessed with the body man, when the body man came out. I was above even the publishing average within three or four weeks. So my you know, my numbers were really well, which also gave me that encouragement of because when you first put something out? Absolutely. You have impostor syndrome. First of all, do I
deserve to be published? And then also you think? Is it going? Am I gonna fall flat flat on my face? Because once once your name is on a book cover, and it sells really horribly that sticks with you? Well, how many copies did the body man sell, and I haven't looked at sales numbers yet for ransom daughter. And I'm not going to for a period of time, because I want to focus on marketing, I want to focus on doing my social
media. talking with folks, I don't want to be thinking the numbers aren't as high as I want. Because, you know, maybe they are higher than I'd like,
you find that frustrating though the
social media and stuff too, especially like, I just find myself with a podcast. I'm like, Okay, that's a big, jacked car. I've had some big names on the show. And I just feel like I'm not where I feel like I should be. And then you look at guys like Jack Carr, and you look at their social media. And it's insane. He's got hundreds of 1000s. And he posts stuff, and it gets all these likes, and I'm just like, okay, like, I know, I'm not gonna be
Jack Carr. But like, it's I just feel like I'm so far away from from that stuff that I'm just like, What the hell am I doing? You know, I almost feel like it's a waste of time. Like, just give me that Earth Romer and get me off the grid.
Maybe your Eric Bishop interview is going to skyrocket you to Joe Rogan levels? Hey, that'd be great for both of us. Yes, I
would love it. If the book takes off, then that would be amazing. Oh,
it's a good, good point. Yeah. And that's where and I'm just as guilty of it. That's where comparisons hinder you a lot of times more than they help you. I think it's good to look at what others are doing. But I think that's where I am preaching to myself by saying this. That's where you have to say, you know, what be the best version of Eric Bishop put out the best book you can. If it doesn't sell as many copies as you want. Hey, maybe the story wasn't as good as you
thought. So maybe you need to do it better. Maybe you need to market more. Maybe you need to branch out whatever it might be. Yeah, but it's hard because it's hard because when you put hard work like you do with the podcast, and I was involved in a podcast years ago, and so I saw the behind the scenes numbers and it was like this, this can't even generate money. Why am I spending hours and hours a week? You know, publicizing this thing, and it's not, you know, gonna generate pennies if that.
So yeah, it's hard, right? So I think if you're passionate about something, I think the passion will come out. And then I think it's perseverance. Once you have that perseverance doesn't mean you're going to make it No. But you will fail to make it not fail, but you will fail to make it if you quit. So if it's something you really believe in, then give it give it what you have. And remember that too. Even I did that with my first book. I was married when I was writing my first book in 2014.
And I knew I wanted to write a novel, but I didn't want to, you know, when can I write a novel because I had a full time job. So I could write when my wife and kids went to sleep. And I did that every night for months, from 10 o'clock until God knows what hours some nights some mornings really, yeah,
sort of rule where you just You didn't even watch TV for like six days a week, you would
see the Sabbath instead of probably I probably went to church at the time. But you know, I my Sabbath would be to sit down and watch like Breaking Bad or something, I'd watch a couple episodes. And I wouldn't write on a Sunday night. Again, after everyone went to sleep instead of writing, I would just but but I got myself in a bad habit and bad physical space, because I
just I pushed myself so hard. So when I wrote the second book, I completely changed my philosophy, I still had to write when everyone wants to sleep because I didn't want to interfere with my family. But I would start at 10 o'clock and my cut off was a hard midnight cut off. Even if I had still words to say I wouldn't let myself but then I was ramped up. Because you know, I just killed someone or I just brought a hot woman spy into the story or whatever
it was. So then I would have to transition myself to go to sleep. And for me at the time. My way of transitioning was one of my favorite things, which was watching Seinfeld episodes.
That's my girlfriend. I'm rewatching that right now, right before every time we go to bed, we're like, that's not a Seinfeld, because I'll watch some like crazy Horror Movie or Documentary or something. And then we're like, we probably need to like wind down a little from that. So
exactly. Yeah, that was my trip. Because you could you could go to
bed earlier and wake in and wake up super early and Right, right. I know, some people do. I'm not a morning person, but
I'm sure somebody could wasn't me. So no, I'm I when I'm up in the morning, I feel alive. And it feels nice. But my creative stuff works at night. So I've tried to get up a few times in the morning and try writing. And the utter stupidity that comes out of my brain at five o'clock in the morning or six o'clock in the morning will ensure that I do not get a book published, basically. So yeah, for me, I'm much more of a
Nighthawk. I was talking to my daughter the other night and because I didn't have them this last weekend. And I said, Yeah, you know, honey, I was in bed Saturday night by like, 130. And she's like, Daddy, that's late. And I was just like, kind of early for me on a Saturday night. Actually, I said I was just, I was pooped. I was tired. I had a book signing on Saturday. I've been kind of going all in for weeks now. And I was just like, my body just
told me. Hey, guess what, you'll have to sign the books tomorrow or work on whatever it is the next day. And so yeah,
yeah. Do you find yourself encouraged by growth because that's what like for me, like when you say the podcasts, the pennies and stuff, like that's how it started for me. But now that I'm on YouTube, I found for podcasts, YouTube is huge, because you can post clips. And then like, I just had a clip, it was crazy. It got like 40 Some 1000 views, which was insane for me. And that's like, huge, like, so. But like, I still haven't seen the podcast grow. Like I'm seeing the
subscribers growth. The small income is growing. You know? So do you see that with the books? Like, what from when you started in 2014? Or whatever? Do you see like the number of books are selling each month? Is that number growing? Because that would be encouraging.
So with books, so the body man is the first one that got published, which was in 2021. So those first seven years I wrote, I didn't sell or you didn't I didn't sell Amazon or anything. Didn't do anything? No. The quick story on that was I think self publishing is because I'm doing it now, so I better believe in it. When I first got started though, I wanted a traditional publishing deal. And the reason why I wanted the traditional
publishing deal was twofold. One I knew it was going to be a lot of work to self publish a book and I just wanted to focus on writing and I knew I had very limited free time. I was married at the time my kids were little. And then also I like I wanted my books to be available in airports and Barnes and Noble and I didn't want to have to deal because if you self published that's not an option really are very limited option. And then going through the experience with a small
publisher I went through. I just decided I had at that point then written so many things that I've learned And a lot about the industry. So maybe I can broach self publishing now. And but what I did, which I wouldn't have probably done years ago, by learning all the lessons I did is I said, Well, if I'm going to self publish, I'm going to do it. What I thought and still think is the right way is I'm going to stay in my lane, what am I good. So I'm good at writing stories. And I think I'm
pretty good at marketing. I'm not a cover designer, I'm definitely not an editor. If you read my first drafts, you probably think I'm not a writer. I'm not good at graphic design and all that. So I hired out all those pieces. And I just focused on story. Assembling. It's easy, I found some really good Atticus as a software, I used to actually design the inside of the book. And it's idiot proof. I mean, you dump a Word file into it, it formats it, and it kind of does some stuff funky.
And then within three hours initially of learning how it worked, I can take anyone's book right now and within an hour have a pretty good manuscript worked out. It's got to be edited. I don't do any of that. But yeah, the format itself, the page numbers, all that stuff, the title page, it does it all for you. It's idiot proof. So I'll do that part. But I wanted to make sure and I just created a legal entity, I went out and created an LLC, I got an
imprint, I got logos created. So I tried to be as professional about it as I could. And just learn that kind of the business side of it. And fortunately, I have a finance degree and business background. So just and then you try to treat it as a business because when the first book came out two years ago, I mean, I threw extra money on it that I shouldn't have. And I was just kind of throwing darts, I don't know what I'm doing, I'll get a Facebook ad or I'll do
this kind of ad. And I just pissed away money, a pistol, a marketing material that didn't generate any sales. So now that it's all on me, and I've kind of learned those lessons, now I target things a lot more difficult. So what is
it because I noticed that two of
the podcasts when I first started, I was doing Facebook ads, and I was like, Okay, this is getting me Facebook's likes on the Facebook page of my podcast. But that doesn't really translate to people listening to it, or like the Facebook groups. Now that is a good place to share. Hey, if you're a fan of this guest, I just had them on my podcast, then they would watch it. But what for you? What did you learn with the Facebook ads that didn't work? What did work?
I'm just I the first few ads I created were very busy. There was a lot of stuff there. So it would pop up on someone's feed. And there was just a lot of words to read. And of course at the bottom it says by now. Yeah, but the graphic has so much stuff going on that you know, I myself when I see a Facebook ad pop up, I don't go on Facebook very much first of all, but when I do, I'm normally like look at it. And if it doesn't catch my attention, or if it's got stuff on there, just
scroll right past it. So now when I make them, they're much more simplistic. You got a book cover, you got a couple of key words. And it's just by now and hopefully click that they click that Buy Now button because that I haven't started them yet for ransom daughter, I was doing them for the body man towards the end, and they seem to be working pretty well. And for ransom daughter. Because time is on my side. I'm not I wasn't trying to make any best seller lists or knew I wasn't gonna
make any best seller list. I was looking more long game. And so I kind of did all my marketing for the release in could get me in the first couple of weeks or month, and then I'll start doing more paid ads. As like my podcasts start dying down and people aren't retweeting my posts or other people's posts. That's when you'll kind of pull in the marketing side of saying, Okay, now I need an ad to be popping up on Instagram or Facebook, when people go, Hey, this book ransom daughters out,
you need to buy this thing. So I can tell you in a couple of months offline, we can have a conversation with look at numbers and tell you hey, was it successful? Yeah, I know. It's done well, so far, just from the traction I've seen, and what my pre orders were my pre orders were really solid. So Jack, promote this one, too. He did put a post out there Yes. Oh, nice, very heated, Brad Meltzer who is one of my kind of literary idols. He was very kind and put posts on all his social
media. Yeah, the support from authors and that's another thing I've talked about in other podcasts is when I first started writing in 2014, I figured man, this is like, probably going to be cut through people aren't going to help you. You're taking book sales away from another author. 100% not true. 100% part of that too, is if you think about it from if you if you're a reader, and if you like to read, you don't typically read one book a year, most readers are
pretty voracious. I mean, they're, you know, they're reading maybe a book a week or a couple of weeks or some people read a book a day, if they're really just you know, in in can read that quickly, which is insane. So most of the time I
do Audible is this book going to be on Audible because that is amazing. I can listen to that. And especially if it's like somebody I'm having on the podcast, a lot of times I'll listen to their book at double speed or time and a half and then I can take notes as I listen to me. Yeah.
Probably will at some point. So I had, I had someone I really wanted to do it, and they gave me a price quote, which I think was probably completely reasonable about a money. But the thing with Audible is you can't set your price. So I kind of looked through the range of what they might charge and Okay, how many books am I going to have to make just to break even? It's not like, how am I going to make a lot of how am I gonna afford that island? In Indonesia? No, it was just how will I get my
money back. And I wasn't really comfortable at the time. And so I said, Well, let me see how it sells, maybe for the first couple of weeks or month. And then if things are moving along, and I've gotten the money then to just pay out right, then I don't have to really care how strong the sales are for it. So I'd like to have as an option
within a couple of months. And that might be a good way, also a couple of months down the line to say, hey, now available in you know, audiobook, because I've definitely have had requests for audiobook, but I haven't had like hundreds and
hundreds of requests. If I did, I probably would have invested the money and known that I'll probably break even at the very least with it because it's where I had a very successful author tell me like two years ago, because my first book didn't have an audio book, the publisher wouldn't do it. I even offered to pay half the talents fee?
Because I find you can't just read it yourself.
Um, with the contract I had no, the publisher had the rights to put the audio book out or not put the audio book out. And I'm not what that publisher for a reason. Yeah, I was gonna say, heads on a lot of things. You're losing
on sales if you don't have because there's certain books for me that I'm like, I really I mean, I read your book, traditionally, but I really try to avoid traditional reading. Because I'm a terrible reader. Now. Audible, I can fly through it, like I said, on double speed or time and a half. So yeah, there's there's a lot of books where I'm like, Oh, this isn't an audible. Sorry, I'm not gonna sorry. Yeah, and watch it or read it. Because, I mean, there's sighs I have a huge list in my audible.
There's, I mean, there's books I have in audible that I've bought. I just don't have time to listen to them all. But listen, I will listen to get to those eventually. But you know, if it's a traditional, I typically won't unless it's for the podcast or something that I write. Yeah, no, I
understand that. Here's
the thing. It's kind of nice. It's only like 167 pages or something. Very Yeah,
that's a novella. So it's kind of it's a full story because obviously read it too. It's a full story, but it's very condensed. No filler. I don't have room. Yeah,
I like that. Just got right to the point. I was like, Alright, let's get on with this. And there's like, and there's like I said, there's a cool twist, which I won't reveal. And it's the it's action pack. It would be perfect for a movie. I think.
Chris Pratt, you listen to this. Who's the Hollywood people out here?
Oh, there's some yeah, there's so many. I mean, I don't know. I don't know if Chris Pratt. Yeah. Who would? And who would ever play the girl? I mean, yeah, it would be fun to I mean, the possibilities. There's got to be some there's so many streaming services and things that somebody could make some money off of it.
I know. You know, I joked with it recently talking to my son. It's like, I want Tom Cruise to buy the rights for the body, man. Because the body man, I could see him at his stage in life being that type of a role. You know, so again, Tom, if you happen to catch this podcast, you know, call me Yeah, I'm
sure he switched on cast. I
mean, he should be it should be should be. Well, thanks
so much for doing this. I always end promoting a charity as our charity want to promote here at the end, after people buy your book. Of course, if they have any absolutely economy they can.
So they're actually I talked to our friend tonight, who is a writer as well, Steve Stratton, who was with my same publisher with the first book, who actually served in the military for many, many years retired. And he's actually in about three hours from me attending an event tomorrow night. That's for the Special Special Operations Warrior Foundation. And they're having an event actually, Brad Taylor is hosting it down in
Charleston. There's a bunch of authors coming down and they're trying to basically raise money for for our heroes really so awesome.
I love it. Yeah, well, if if people if you have money, and you can send some to that, that'd be great. If you're struggling, then then hang on to your money. You're gonna need it because this economy is rough. But if you can throw a few to if you need if you want to buy a book, buy this book, because it's a good book, and it's probably pretty cheap. I'm assuming I didn't have to pay for it, thankfully. But
yeah, the paperback for Amazon is 999. The ebooks for 99 Oh, wow, really only 40 There's, there's a hardcover out there to the hardcover which actually, the it's not normal to have a hardcover for a novella. This is actually the proof my heart covers are coming tomorrow or big bucks, have them slowly or tomorrow, but I liked the hardcover, hardcover and this is 1699. So but that's that's obviously a little bit pricier but the other ebooks for 99
Pretty darn cheap. In the paperbacks, the paperbacks are good, or good size. I just I like I like the way, I was really pleased how it turned out, I wasn't. Again, part of it was a learning curve of saying if I'm going to put something out myself a novella is kind of a good way to learn all the steps and I'm going to fall, I'm going to mess some stuff up. So
I can learn some lessons. The biggest thing with the novella, and why I did it that way, is from an editorial standpoint is I read through the story, a lot of times this year, even read it a couple of weekends ago, just to see if I enjoyed it. No editing, no looking for mistakes, just do I enjoy the story. And I loved it. I can read through it. And it just several hours versus my first book, The Body man was 450
pages. That took me night after night to be reading it, especially after work and the kids go to bed or whatever. So yeah, the novella is a fun format. And I've had that question. Are you going to do it again? And yes, I just don't know when. As of right now, the follow up to the first my first book, The Body man, which I have the rights back to the subsequent books for that. The follow up is called breach of trusts. And that's coming out
late spring, early summer. And then next year, so about a year from now. The follow up to ransom daughter will come out.
Okay. Yeah, cuz I was gonna say there was a, there's a sneak peek of the breach of trust in Yes, at the end of this book, which is kind of cool. So
yeah, absolutely. So I got a sneak peek to that. And then I'll put a sneak peek to the book that comes out next year in the back of breach of trust as well, I just, it's just kind of whet people's appetite. And then that book is still got some work to be done with it. But that one's going to follow Troy in the group. And there's a couple missing weapons out there that we don't like to be missing out there. So his him and his team, no one can find these
things. So they're hoping Troy in the Omega group can track these weapons down before someone else has a little fun in the Middle East. So cool. Well, I
look forward to that. We'll have to come back on the show. And that comes out.
We'd love to. All right. Well, thanks
so much here. I'll talk to you later.
Thank you, Chuck. Take care.
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