¶ Intro / Opening
Welcome to the show. And thank you for taking the time to check us out, we've got a great guest today, Doc coil from bad wolves is here.
But before we get to that real quick, if you could help me out by doing some or all of the following, liking my page on Facebook, Instagram or Twitter, subscribing to the show via YouTube, or wherever you listen, and finally writing a review of the show, either on iTunes or wherever you listen, those things would really help me out and I will forever be grateful to that. Now on with the show. Today's guest is Coyle. He is the guitarist for the band bad
wolves. And they've had for number one rock songs on the charts, including their smash hit zombie, which of course is the cover of the cranberry song. And before he joined bad wolves, he was in a band called God forbid, for like 17 years, I didn't know about this. And he's also filled in for Lamb of God. He's written blogs for VH. One and metal sucks. And he also hosts his own podcast, the x man, podcast with doc coil. And I got to say, this was one of the most fun interviews I think
I've ever done. And we went a little long, probably a lot longer. And that's because doc and I, we went off script, and we went down some rabbit holes together. And we talked conspiracy theories and UFOs and politics and the media, and a lot more. And it was just it was really interesting stuff to me. So I hope you'll agree. We also talk music, of course, and I get his take on changing singers in
bad bad wolves. And of course what happened with Tommy because I was really curious about his opinion on that it didn't seem like bad wolves had really said much about what happened. So overall, he just has great opinions on a lot of different things. And this episode was a blast for me. I hope you guys enjoy it, too. Let me know what you think afterwards after you listen, let me know your thoughts. I'd be curious to hear that. Please welcome doc coil to
¶ Doc's Secret to Not Aging
the podcast. How are you?
I'm doing all right. You know, just you know, I've been trying to get my life together, you know, trying to get up earlier. So I got little bags and my son. You know, I got coffee. I'm ready to go. All right.
No, you look great, man. I got to tell you, I'll be honest, a bad wolves fans. Fans of you are going to kill me right now. But I thought bad wolves. Obviously it's a newer band 2018 or whatever you guys formed. I thought you were like, super young. I thought you were like 25 cuz I'm thinking this is a new band. I didn't know you're in this other band called God forbid for like 17 years.
Yeah. Um, so I guess I went from being the young guy in the band to being like the old fogies?
No, you look great. I don't know, whatever you're doing, it's working. So you should give secrets on that. Like,
we know this. And I'll tell you the, here's the key to not aging. Okay. Don't spend too much time in the sun. And just avoid responsibility.
Wait a minute, No, that doesn't add up. Because you
¶ Fun, Responsibility & Focus
have tons of hours you. You write blogs, you do podcasts, you're in bands,
but I want to do it. Like it's not like someone you know, I do all that stuff, because I enjoy it. And I like molded my life so that the things I spend my time doing are things I I enjoy doing. And then yes, there are deadlines, and there are pressures, but it's, it's all stuff that I enjoy.
So and what's amazing is that you can make money off of it. That's the real amazing part. Because there's a lot of people that would love to do things that they enjoy, but the fact that most of them can't make money off it or make a living.
Well, I always feel like at least the level I'm at, you'll always have to kind of cobbled together different income streams, you're either even with battles I had another job almost the whole time.
So I didn't
really yeah, you know, so I was always and then I was also had the podcast and always was doing other things I would tour with you I toured with Mark Morton from Lamb of God with his solo band. I did dates you know, with the wedding band with with Robin Kirk from Metallica. I did ship rocks and played you know, with the with
the stowaways on that. So it's always feel like if you put all your eggs in one basket in terms of making a living, you're, you know, you're just you're you're taking a big risk, you're kind of just jumping out without a parachute because that one thing goes away. Then you're kind of sitting there holding the bag, like better metaphor.
See, that's and that's I kind of agree with you because I had somebody else told me, I was talking about writing this book and they're like, No, you should just go you know, there's some book called one thing if Forget who it's I don't know if you read that book called one thing where you're supposed to just focus on one thing. And they told me to just like go all out on the podcast.
I'm like, I think you got to do a lot of I mean, if you look at Rogan, the most successful podcast ever, it's, he does a million things. And he's a comedian. He's an actor, he hosts TV shows he does MMA stuff. So
yeah, I think he what he does focus on a few things, right? It's comedy. It's fighting. And it's his, his podcast, right? And so he, he, but he found a way to turn his passions into his career. But I think what he's showing is that most of us are fairly diverse, right? We're not all just like, I just like this one thing, and I'm gonna write seven. And I think, if you do that, you'll have more of a chance of being successful in that one
realm.
I just personally for me, I just get bored. I think there's a, like, I think there's a rational way to look at it, where, hey, if I put all my chips in, I'm gonna be really great at this one thing. And I think that, I think that logic, especially like with things like social media, right, let's say someone goes your Instagram, and you're a guitar player, and all it is, is videos of you playing guitar and showing your rig and doing lessons. That's your brand. Hmm, no, we know what you
do. If you're, if you're a model, and it's picture, it's your everyday if I go to your page, and it's just pictures of you modeling and looking cool. And that's your thing, where me I do so many things. Sometimes I'm like, I think I'm just too all over the place. It's like sometimes I'm posting about the movies I like and sometimes I'm here's a video of me playing guitar, here's me on vacation, it's a little. So I do think streamlining things to some degree. There's a big benefit of
that as well. So it's it's just depends what your strategy is.
Yeah, I think I like your strategy better, too, because I'm into so many different things. And even my podcast, I look at a lot of my peers with podcasts, and they only interview musicians and I, I gotta have some authors on I like, try to get some movie TV people and just other experts, because it's interesting. It's like, I like to mix it up.
Yeah, I get. I see me I in this weird way. I'm with my show. I'm always kind of following the listeners. Because usually when I deviate from the normal type of guests, the numbers go down.
Yeah, I noticed that too.
So I have to, to some degree, understand what people come to the show for. But then when it makes sense for me to pique my own interest, it's like, I have certain people because I'd rather just talk to smart people and interesting people rather than a famous person.
Yeah, no, that's that's a good point. I really agree. I've had some really interesting authors like
¶ Conspiracy Theories, UFOs & Aliens
conspiracy theory, people like me, it's really fascinating. Even if you don't agree with everything they say. I like hearing people's opinions. It's really interesting. Yeah, what kind of kind of conspiracy? Have you ever heard of Jay Dyer? No, yeah, you should look him up. He's really, and it was interesting, because I would say like I heard you said this about this thing. And he would go Whoa, I didn't say that. I said, it's certainly plausible that this could he was very careful
in his wording. Really smart guy. Really? Interesting stuff. But
yeah, here's the focus. I feel like the conspiracy mind is a particular kind of filter. We're looking at the world. And usually it's not very careful choosing words.
Yeah, I mean, it can be for sure. Well, then there's people I think, and this guy, he actually works with Alex Jones sometimes and, and that guy is totally different than because alex jones just says so much shit. And it's like, a lot of it is total bullshit. But some of its right. But he doesn't seem to care about whether he's saying the truth or not. This guy's like, no, he wants to make sure anything he
says is worded correctly. And so I don't know, I think it's interesting to to explore some of those, those topics, especially like the UFO thing, and now the government's coming out and saying, Yeah, there are UFOs we don't know what they are. But these are real. There's this footage. And I don't know if you follow that at all, but it's fascinating.
Very, very intense. But I've been doing that for years. And I think it's one of the most obvious conspiracies in that like is to some degree I think the term has lost its meaning right. So only thing conspiracy means is that what the people who have control of certain information in this case, the government, right, the idea that UFOs are some beings or something has been essentially entered the public Zeit guy since the 50s. Or Roswell was that 40s late 40s
what was Roswell might have been 47 or so.
So around the time he started developing nuclear weapons, and people forget when Roswell happened, it was in the newspaper. As if it was it wasn't just like one newspaper. It was like, This is here. There are UFOs they crashed, landed. They thought like that was the official story. And then they change the story. And like, no,
it's weather balloons. So it's clear from all the evidence that if you just look at evidence, and you don't have to go to some crazy website, just stuff that's out there that you have video footage, photographs, eyewitness testimony for people that are credible radar, I mean, every under every metric there is a, just so much as overwhelming evidence that something is here. We don't, you can't, without without saying it's it's alien, you know, but that the government knows something and
isn't telling us about it. That is the definition of a conspiracy that that people with power are conspiring together to not divulge a no another truth. So that's so that's at the heart of it. So the fact that this stuff is coming out, for me, it's not really relevant. Regulatory, because it's just kind of like, I feel like the rest of the world is catching up. I'm already yet, right.
Yeah, no, that's, that's exactly right. Yeah. And I always take all this stuff with a grain of salt. Like, I don't think I think it's dangerous when people jump to a conclusion one way or the other, like, 100% I believe aliens exist. 100% aliens do not exist. Like, I think it's always good to keep an open, like, you might lean one way or the other with any of these issues. But,
but no, but even with that I don't lean it is mathematically a certainty that life exists somewhere in the in the expanse of the universe. Now, whether that life is in contact with us, is we can't say Right, right. So right,
because it's not mathematically, the fact that like for them to there, there is life probably somewhere but mathematically for them to be alive at the same time as us. And for us to come in contact with them. That is the mathematical rarity. Because the universe is infinite. It's so big, how the hell would you ever find anybody?
Well, watch this one YouTube video that basically explained all the scenarios in which life may exists. And if it does, why, we don't have contact with and it was it was about 10 different scenarios, all of them were actually pretty kind of mind bending and crazy. Like, for example, so one is, so let's say there's aliens, right? But they literally don't think they can't communicate with us, right? Like, so if you tried to
talk to a pig. And you wanted to, like, the pig was trying to tell you something like, you don't know what a pig is, or a deer, right? You, even though we're way smarter than they are, we actually have no way to actually really know what they want, or what they care about, you know what I'm saying? Like, you can see, you can follow their patterns and go, okay, they're motivated by food, or they're motivated to procreate or whatever, but there's all these different elements, that,
that go into it. But I you know, to me, it's the most fascinating thing in our lifetime, and hopefully, there is more that is revealed. But to me, though, just us using deductive reasoning, the technology that shown the pervasiveness, the vastness of it, are there three, there are certain stories that are just, you know, oh, China has an OLED. So you're telling me, China has this technology of silent?
Yeah, so my buddies told me today with this information that came out, he said, Oh, it's China, like, but the first evidence was 2004. So they're waiting 17 years to
get there. But the question is, okay, let's say another nation had this technology, right? It can, you know, break this the speed of sound, turret, you know, do 90 of the returns, go into the ocean without destroying itself,
disable the Americans weapons on the Jets,
but they're not using this technology for anything else. But to just fly around America. Right? What? Right, so it's not like, they have better internet and better like commercial air technology better, you know, just robotics, nanotech AI, like they're not applying in any of these other areas, except this one thing, right? It makes no sense. You know? So and it's also technology. Any technology you have, you can always trace back,
right? its roots because all technologies current technology is built on previous technology. So you can see it almost like an evolutionary thing where you see like the tadpole turning into a man so linear. Yeah, you can follow it. So it's, it just really doesn't happen where something goes from zero to 60 overnight, right. It's a very technical He's very incremental. And even certain things that happened quickly, like robotics or computers, even that took decades. And it's like very
slow, right? You don't go from the iPhone, one to the iPhone 10 in one year, right, that took 12 years or whatever. So, I don't know, it's, uh, you know, I don't know if that's what we were talking about here.
No, that's as fast as he I love that stuff, too. I'm sure some of our listeners might have tuned now, but I think it's fast. agad talk that stuff all day. And I mean, there's so many things like that. And then, like you said, some of those, quote unquote, conspiracy theories are just, you know, factual things like MK Ultra, these government programs, Operation Paperclip, and all these things. I mean, they're fact they're not. They're not, they're not fringe,
you know, conspiracy. Maybe this happened, like, these are things that actually happened. And so
some of those things, I think, are just really just how intelligence organizations operate. They operate using clan
¶ Government Agencies & Society Evolving
clandestine methods, because they're operating in service of national security. So that's the whole point, the whole point of their organizations is to be secretive. Sure, sure. That's true controlling information. So to me, that is not necessarily it's not a conspiracy, if that's what it's supposed to do.
But it's kind of scary some of the stuff that they did to people. And then when you look at, what's the guy that Ted, Ted Kaczynski, the unabomber, he was a victim of those or a participant, I guess you'd say, of the MK Ultra experiments. And so it makes you wonder, is that what caused him to kind of go off the deep end? A little bit? Like, I don't know, it's interesting.
Well, yeah, of course. But I but I think I think people also have a difficulty understanding that those organizations evolved kind of in the same way society has evolved. So if you go back to the 50s, and 60s and 30s, and 40s, how many areas of life can we look at that were way less humane than they are, we look at reality, for sure. gender relations, where you look how you if you were gay, in the 50s and it was found out you would
literally get blackballed. You would lose your job, you would, you know, you'd be thrown out of your community. I mean, so things in general have gotten more humane. And I, you know, like I said, Maybe this is just me being my own personal bias, but I do believe when things like MK Ultra fine, are, you know, they become public when the Tuskegee experiments, things like that become public knowledge, the way the FBI treated, you know, Martin Luther
King and the Black Panthers. And that stuff comes out J. Edgar Hoover, all the terrible things he did. I think those organizations are due are reforming. In the same way societies are reforming, because there's people know about this stuff more, and they're more, there's more scrutiny now on governmental agencies than ever. So I think it doesn't mean they're perfect, or they're not doing shady things. It's not
that. But even when I think when these organizations and people do things that we consider to be immoral, I think they think they're doing it for the right reasons, right. They think they're protecting the country, they think they're, there's some greater good, and, and so a lot of times people will do evil shit, for quote, unquote, good reasons. And that's not an excuse, but it's just an examination of human nature.
Right? Yeah, no, I like to think that we are getting better. And as a society, I mean, sometimes it feels like we're moving backwards when I see stuff, and I just shake my head and cringe. And but yeah, I'd like to think that, you know,
I mean, I guess there's ups and downs, for sure. And our progress is not a linear road is often is you two steps forward, one step back. One step forward, is a Herky jerky experience. I was watching Netflix have a documentary about the 14th amendment that that described all this stuff, like after slavery, and how that process of the laws affected black Americans after slavery, because it wasn't like, oh, you're free. And then you have all these rights. Legislation put because Emancipation
Proclamation happened. In the sense it was all this, like, you know, you just, it's a different world. And just because that one law was passed, it's not like people gonna go along with that, and especially in America, where the states have X amount of rights to exert their own power in local localities and municipalities and townships can do so that's just the way it is like things just don't it just doesn't get better and sometimes
things get worse, you know. So it's history is was a The, the arc of history is long, but bends towards justice. I
don't know that that's I never heard that. That's interesting. I hope so. Yeah. I mean, it is interesting. You look some of the history of you know, the war. And especially our country. Yeah, there's
a lot of things that are just awful. But then there's also a lot of great things and a lot of great technology. That's been like you said, technology has gotten so much better. And I mean, sometimes I guess that could be a bad thing, too. But it wasn't technology. It's like anything else, right? Fire can be used to heat your home cooked meals or burn your house down. water can be used. We live in need waters, what an auction we need to live, but it can drown
you or destroy your home. You know, hammer can build a house or beat your skulls, your family and everything. Yeah, now everything is a double edged sword. And so nothing, very few things are easy, either. 100% bad or 100%? Good. It's just how we utilize them.
Totally, totally. I didn't really so you really ended a lot of this stuff. And I've listened to a few of your podcasts. I've heard you talking about this stuff a little bit.
¶ Media, Fear & Skewed Information
Some other interviews you've done. Did you read so you read a lot, and you watch a lot of documentaries and things?
Yeah, I mean, you know, I, I use the word read with liberal terms in that, you know, I listened to books on tape, probably more often, then then the count was I used to, but I'm just a purveyor of
information. But I've also I feel like I've also taken a step back to some degrees, I think, at least with regard to current events, there's a lot of smoke, and kind of this, the 24 hour news cycle, and kind of making kind of mountains out of molehills, I think can make you a little crazy after I have, you know, I think this is something with age, you know, I noticed with my parents and during the kind of Trump era where people were so clued in, they felt like what's going on on CNN or
something is, is if I'm not clued into this thing, that I'm kind of not doing my due diligence as a citizen to to understand what's going on. I think there's moments where it's really important, but there's also diminishing returns in terms of risk in terms of how it's actually helping your life. And I think if we get too clued in especially to partisan politics, it's really detrimental to your well being
and it. And if you you're clued into one side, you become skewed and you're only getting one narrative and it it completely works. I think your ability to kind of be centered, you know, that center that even that sounds like I'm being like,
being a centrist. I don't mean that I just mean, kind of like spiritually and mentally being more just at ease with the world and not thinking the whole thing's on fire all the time, which I feel like people have this peak anxiety, they're at all the time, because they're hearing about this terrible thing that's happening in this legislation. And this person is getting elected in this war that's happening over here. And they're tapping the phones and the drones. It's, you know, I'm
saying like, yes,
no, that's what because that's what their job is, is media. Their job is to get you to watch, if everything's perfect, you're going to turn the news off, and you're going to go do like, but if you're scared, you want to know what happens next. So they're always pushing the fear. But both sides do that. Just different stories, I think.
But one point I try and push is that people need to expand what they think of as the media, the media is your Twitter feed the media is true. vlogger media is podcasts like this. So you can not even ever watch cable news. And by the way more people listen to Joe Rogan's podcast and watch cable news. That's
true. Yeah. Comedians, tell me that like, back in the day, you know, go on The Tonight Show was the thing to do. Now. It's like, be on Joe Rogan's podcast. It's like way bigger than that stuff.
You're a comedian. And Joe Rogan gives you like the cosign, you have a career like that's it. He's a kingmaker. Yeah. It almost do it over overnight. And, I mean, I legitimately think like, for example, if Joe Rogan endorsed Joe Biden, right, I think it would have been a blowout. I don't think it would have been close, but just because he was like, oh, that guy's old and he can't talk. And, you know, I'd rather vote for Trump, right? That was just enough to make even though I mean, Biden won by
7 million votes, whatever. But I think he's that powerful. The only problem is he doesn't realize it. He kind of just does this thing like almost like he's not I don't know. So I respect to Rogan, especially being someone in the podcast. Be field I think you have to recognize what he's done how unique it is and how sure
yeah, absolutely. Well, God this stuff has been fascinating God, any my music questions that I have for you.
¶ Doc's Early Musical Influences
But I did think was interesting, too. If we can talk about music for a little bit, that, like I said, because I thought that you were younger, but you're kind of closer to my age. So you grew up with the same influences like the Megadeth, the symphony of destruction. That was one of the first videos that you saw. On November rain that's that's my that's when I started getting Iraq to.
Yeah, I mean, that's what a great era means the last about the last great era for for interviews they said another good 1015 years in them but but yeah, it was it was an incredible time I loved everything I say about that era, even though the rock and metal is the stuff that I was most gravitated towards. I love it. I
it was diverse. That's what I liked, loved about hip hop, and there was grunge and there was, you know, and they were there even, I got into a lot of the 80s bands, you know, because they would do those the top 200 videos of all time and there you see Tears for Fears. Yeah, and Dire Straits and things like
that. So it was kind of the way I am when I get into any thing, whether it's music or comic books or movies as I'm, I go all in and I just want to and I want to know about the history and oh, right person, and oh, who's Oh, they're wearing that band's t shirt. Let me go check that out. I'd get the, you know, the liner notes. And oh, like, I remember there was this. There was this band in Jersey. There's like metal band and like, I got
their demo. And in the demo sleeve it like put all the albums that influenced their album. Wait, like, it was just like an education? Or Oh, I need to get it. So I need to get this album. So but I'm the type of person that that just goes down
the rabbit hole. Yeah, yeah.
You know, because I think it's I think it's fascinating. And I'm and I have great reverence for history in the past. And that, you know, it's, to some degree, I think there's a certain type of people that feel like, it's never been better than ever, right, whatever the new thing out is the best. And there's some people who like always think the old thing was the best. I think it's a combination of both. I
agree. But I do think you cannot certain era's the way they did things, like it'll never be like that, right. But what I'm saying is, right, so if you see a film like alien, right, like, there was a way shot films, and there was a way they edited films, and as a way they like they're like, it's a it is completely of its era, artifacts, time. And you can make something theoretically as good today. But you can't do it like that, because you don't have the same tools, you don't
have the same so. So understanding that and going Hey, like when I listen to Led Zeppelin for, like, it's never gonna be like, like, there's nothing gonna be like that, that that's that good with that thing. So for the fact you can go back and find that historically, there's just all this hidden treasure out there. I always loved that. Just discovering things in the past and and now this is the best time to do that. Because we have for sure, Spotify and Netflix and YouTube. Yeah, YouTube, just
yeah, watch it. You know, like, one of my favorite things is going to YouTube and just pulling up old shows your white zombie from 94. What can I find? You guys? That's a real fun thing for me.
Yeah, that's cool. And then you started getting into the heavier stuff, obviously, like Slayer Panthera. But originally you liked Metallica and Megadeth. But
¶ Slash - Favorite Guitar Player
slash was actually your favorite. Good. And you still say he's your favorite guitar player? Oh, yeah. So my favorite guitar player? That's awesome. Yeah, it's kind of surprising because you your bands, obviously are more heavier, but you can appreciate his technique and stuff and style. And well,
I mean, was was slash I mean, as just purely as a lead guitar player. He has tone, right. So you hear just you hear his guitar, and you know, it's him. His style is so recognizable, and his just his ability to compose as as a lead guitar player. You know, there's really only a few people that I
think can do it. As well as that in terms of melody, you know, David Gilmore, from Pink Floyd, um, you know, maybe, you know, some of the, you know, Eagle stuff, there's this very, you know, Brian May be really brilliantly melodic. So it's this, this idea of, kind of style and composition, kind of, and then, you know, maybe outside of Hendrix, he's our most iconic figure, you know, in terms of just like, you can see
a fucking silhouette. Yeah. And that, as I say, there's a difference between a musician and a rock star. Thankfully, slashes is both, but he has that
cool factor. And ultimately, what people don't realize is that often is actually what makes 12 year old kids want to pick up a guitar is they just see someone who's just a badass and yeah, you just gravitate to I wouldn't be bad as I'm a nerd on likes me Oh yo and and that there's that kind of aspirational aspect of that that, especially I've as I've kind of moved into different realms as a player and gotten to win battles enter this kind of Mainstream Rock world, it's
like, you want to fill the shoes of being something a little bit bigger than just a guitar player, right? You have to you have to be the performer you have to be the larger than life and kind of and listen, so it's given where I'm at. It's a little more self aware. I don't think slash thinks about being slash I think he just is and that's the best that's why it's so cool because it doesn't feel contrived. But it is something but me being an analytical
person. It is something that say, Hey, I, you know, set your your sights high and try and be as Prime model the best after the best that I've ever done it. So yeah, well,
¶ "God Forbid" Band
you're certainly on your way, john really well, but yeah, so before bed was you got to talk a little bit about, God forbid the span. So you started when you're 16. And like I said, 17 years? That's a long time but I mean, this I don't know how I'd never heard of this band. You guys did a lot of big shows. With five finger death punch. Killswitch Engage played with Marilyn Manson. lamma God, you
did oz fests, like so. But what were for you What were the highlights or lowlights of your time with God forbid what stands out to you?
I mean, Ozzfest was huge for us. I mean, it was basically the history of metal on one tour, it was Sabbath, Judas Priest Slayer, Slipknot, you know, ensemble is on there with super drunk ritual. And then the entire kind of scene that we came from was on that tour, hate Brie, Lamb of God on earth, a true Darkest Hour throwdown devildriver. So it was just a real pivotal moment for
heavy music. And it was incredible to kind of, because we at that point, we have been grinding, you know, in the local scene, like I said, since 9697, but as a touring band internationally for about four or five years. So it felt like it you know, we had gotten to a certain plateau that in some, some way, when we started, we had very humble beginnings, very underground. There wasn't really a scene for what we were doing. We're always an odd band on any
bill. We weren't quite death metal, we weren't quite hardcore. We weren't quite thrash metal, we were this kind of hodgepodge. And then after, we were doing that in like 2000 2001, those bands like shadows, fall and lamb of God and Killswitch Engage all started to come up. So a scene
started to form. So that that was a big highlight in the own just and also doing some like that with the band like Slipknot, when you when you're like in close proximity to at the time they were the even though they were on the second stage, they were the biggest fan on us right and off days was about as well. So we were doing then doing like arena shows on our days off with Slipknot,
Slayer, and hate breed. And you're kind of you get a first person kind of close look at how the biggest investments operate. And that has a big impact on you. Because you go Okay, so this is this is kind of what it looks like to be that badass.
¶ Big Bands & Success
So what did you learn? What What did the biggest and best bands do? Is there something that one thing that they're all doing differently than the other brands?
Well, I mean, I think one thing, you start to understand how songs translate in like bigger environments and how you okay, if I'm in the back of an arena, what kind of translates what kind of sonically like what sounds good What? What works, you know, so that had a big influence on the record we made after that this album called constitution of
treason. You know, we had on the, on that cycle, I said, touring with Slipknot, touring with Machine Head, and you see, it really had an impact on the how the song sounded, and kind of trying to play to a bigger environment.
Okay, interesting,
you know, and it just listened. It just changes. It just puts the bar here it goes, Okay. Like, you know, when you see people like slipknot and sheen had the way they get ready for a show and their mentality. It's, there's it's a level of focus. It's a level they take it so seriously, it's not a joke for them. It's not. It's like they're going to war. You know, it almost looks like a fool.
Okay. Wow. They're like they're, you know, and even still at that point, because a lot of those bands you mentioned at this time you're touring, they could probably just coast on their loyal laurels and just kind of like a frickin Slip, no, we don't need to try hard, we've already made it. But they're still at that point, they still want to prove themselves every night,
you made the perfect point. And that's the same thing I noticed was like, oh, like, they, they're the ones that have the least approve, took it the most seriously. And so that, to me, at least, the evidence, that's why they're at where they're at, is because they're not taking days off, they're not there that they put that level of intensity into every level,
right of, of their craft. So when they're making an album, even though I wasn't, I'm not there, to make an album, based on what I saw, and witnessed and understand the people, they put
that same effort into it. And, and if you're not, and same thing, I mean, we did a tour 2009, the mayhem Fest, and God forbid shared a tour bus with behemoth, and being around nurgle everyday from behemoth and just his, the way you know, just the way his mind works, and his discipline and his focus and the way that it's run that band, and they weren't nearly as big as they are now. You can just see why they would be
successful. And so, you know, and that, and for me, it kind of laid out all these things of just, I don't know, a lot of people think they should be successful based on Oh, we're good, or we're talented, or we work hard. And you're like, Yeah, but the people that are really operating on a different level, kind of like you to really be on that level. You have to, I don't know, it's like a frequency you have to tune
into as a as a human being. And it's something I think I've breached and I've, I've understood it, and I'm it's but it's it's like it's an again, it's another kind of aspiration where I'm like, I understand what it takes because you because I don't think you can coast your way to, to that, you know, you have to kind of be you know, it's like me like watch that a Michael Jordan
documentary? Oh, yeah. You know, and you want to say, oh, like he's just, he doesn't think like normal people like he's kind of almost right. Lightly pathological.
Yeah, he's driven. I mean, it's a whatever people have, you know, I don't know, people are driven for different reasons. And I, so I like doing these podcasts cuz I like to find out what makes people so driven to do things and achieve such greatness. But yeah, it's really fascinating to see when people do turn it on. I think it's, I think that's something that's inside of everybody, if they just find the right motivation.
Well, but it's also one thing I haven't totally figured out is, is always a sacrifice. So if you put right got 10 acorns, right, and you put nine acorns into the work, basket, then that you only got that one acorn for relationship, Family Health, right, whatever, like so sometimes it to be that to function so well. And one thing, it almost it's it's very difficult to do that and maybe be a fully formed human being to some degree. So it's it.
Yeah, you said you kind of struggle with that sometimes that you just want to focus and do creative things and kind of go into that hole and just do that. But when you have to come out of the hole, and like pay the bills, or like deal with taxes or something, you're just like, wait, what do I do? Like, I just want to go in and be creative? That's all?
Yeah, it's a, I don't know. It's, it's, it's kind of I think, I think the challenge of getting to like the next plateau because as because there's the right, there's your career, right? Okay, I want to do this, I want to do that I want to make enough money to survive and thrive and whatever. And then there's like, Okay, I'm actually a human being who wants to keep progressing. Okay? And I'm at that right at that age, where a lot of people go, Okay, well,
this is kind of who I am. Maybe I'm just not going to change, right? So I'm just saying, I'm in a period now. I'm trying to challenge myself to go, okay. I don't really want to do this thing. But sometimes doing that thing is like eating your vegetables, right? It's like, saying that it's not fun. But if you do it, you'll feel better. Right? That's true. So it's, I'm trying to kind of crack this mental code of doing things that are not intuitive that my gut
says don't do it. But maybe my gut is an idiot because he doesn't want to change.
Yeah,
sometimes this idea of doing something that doesn't feel comfortable, but hopefully I'll grow and kind of get to this next phase of evolution as a human being and and listen that's wrapped into maturity. You know, just all the elements of traversing traditional adulthood that have been challenges for me, you know, and a lot of that is is reflective of the career path I've chosen. A lot of that is just reflective
just in a lot of ways. I've decided to kind of be this nonconformist individual that kind of pushes against the pressures of normalized society. And, you know, so I have this kind of internal dialogue that's always like going back and forth about not wanting to a lot of things that are normal for other people are very alien to me.
Yeah, yeah, that was I heard you talking about that was interesting. But so after God forbid ends, I mean, a
¶ Moving to L.A. & Promoting Yourself
big thing that you did, too, was you moved to LA. And the advice you got was just say yes to everything until you have to say no, so you're trying to do all these different gigs. And the first gig you got was this thing where you played with Robert Trujillo from Metallica, Whitfield crane, of ugly kid, Joe. And there was all this like, you know, star studded audience with Ozzy and Duff, and Stewart Copeland of the police was there and then you posted
that on social media. And so you learn to kind of promote yourself, right and kind of act as your own press agent.
Yeah, I mean, listen, it's I think it's what you what you have to do, because there's this very kind of, especially in LA, there's this industry thing of, you know, you go out to a bar, go to a show, and you know, oh, hey, what's up, man? I don't see some people. And the thing we kind of do is talk about the shit we're working on, right? Sure. Because to some degree, you know, my time before, God forbid, my time, before or after, God forbid, but before bad wolves. I was just my own
person, right? Just looking for projects and doing things you end. So you kind of always have to have a story. Right? So if you go to some a friend you don't see in a while, who's maybe in the industry, Hey, what's going on? what's what's been working on? I used to go nothing. That's not a very good story. All right. up doing this, um, I just I was in this recording session, I got this
tour coming. You know, it's a, you know, a little bit of, I guess, outwardly facing propaganda to just let people know, you're, you're doing things and you're, you're busy. Because to some degree, I think if once you're not in the band that you're known for. Some people you almost stop existing. Right? Ah, he'll forget about your
sight out of mind.
Yeah, but honestly, personally, for me, it was actually very liberating to, you know, because I was I was bartending and I was, you know, teaching, teaching guitar,
¶ Ozzfest & Money on Record Contract
that not to grading to go from playing Ozzfest to bartending. I mean, cuz I hear those stories all the time. But I'm always like, in my head, I'm like, if I was at that level, I would feel like it would be hard to go down. I feel like it'd be
great. It actually got paid to Barton.
Well, you didn't get paid at all, as best.
We know. So we did a bygone so almost all the bands in the second stage had to pay $70,000 to get the tour. We had to take that tour support. And then we also had to take another like $100,000 to pay for the tour for the bus and the crew. And our per diem was $10 a day. So on Austin's, I mean, $7 a week. Wow, for 10 weeks. What I think but here's
the record company buys it on your on a record company at that point.
We're, we pay for that ultimately, right? So I'm so bad, so God forbid is still on recouped to our record label. And half of the money we owe to label is just Ozzfest. So we won't see any royalties on any record sales until that money is recouped, which is basically probably never. So unless,
you know, some big movie chooses a god forbid song and makes you a couple million or something.
We don't even that doesn't work that way. We'd have to sell basically the equivalent of like, 300,000 albums, to recoup. Oh, that have or stream the equivalent of 300,000 albums. So we'd have to get so 1500 times 300,000 that's how many streams Oh, yeah, that's
a lot cuz Yeah, I hear stories about the streaming. It's just doesn't even like rolling stones or something isn't hardly making any money off Spotify and such.
Well, but they're also it's like, not that they need it. But that's what I'm saying. It's just you just put in the mud. It's like, Hey, you made $300,000,070 Alright, it's like, they're fine.
Yeah, that'd be fine. So he said during this
¶ Playing with Other Bands & Writing for VH-1
time when you're in LA before he joined bad wolves, there were some tryouts. For bands like the you were going to just work I guess as a hired gun. Wasn't really your cup of tea. I mean obviously you do end up joining Lamb of God for a little bit on a tour But was there other what other bands did you turn turn down?
I'm traveling by burn down specifically. I mean I've I've had like, almost like I had to turn down this one guy who was still active like filling in on bass for Machine Head for a tour. Because God forbid I keep getting my bands mixed up because God forbid was booked and then I remember running into killswitch guys on one of their tours. And they they said they were going to call me to fill in for Adam D. But again, Godfrey was was booked think think
things like that. Um, so it's not as much a situation of just turning down gigs. It's just while when I was in LA, and I was just like, Hey, I'm just gonna try out for stuff and look for kind of anything. I just realized during that process that I think, you know, I remember I was I did this one try out for this one artist, and it was just music was really weird, just odd arrangement summer, I was like, transcribing
the songs. And it was just taking me like hours just to transcribe because every part Oh, this parts in five, eight. And there's, here's this motif. And it was like, and I'm just and the music was weird. And I just wasn't really into it. Sure. And I was just like, you know, what if I'm just if I'm not into the music, and it's just a gig, if I'm just a kind of faceless person over here, strumming chords. I don't think that's really what I want to do.
And around that time, I end up getting a gig writing freelance for vH one.com. Right. Yeah. And, and that was really great, because they had a pretty giant readership. And I was charged as the modern metal colonists. So essentially, I do, you know, a lot of stuff is very list oriented, like, like, the first piece I think I did, or first big piece I did was like, the 18 bands you need to hear in 2016 or every year it was, you know,
and that. So people, you know, because VH, one calm and finally, when people regard something like that, which is an opinion piece, people like VH one thinks this, it's like, well, no, it's, it's what I think I'm not right, each one. I'm not like, you know, it's like there was a meeting we all
are. Yeah, you're just the author of that article. And it's,
but almost no matter what you put people like on things like Facebook would just post that, like they'd share it. And, you know, and hundreds of 1000s of people would would read these articles. And you know, and listen, half of them would think I was an idiot. And the bands I did include on there would thank me and I and it just it kind of gave me credibility right away as a writer, even though I've been writing at that point. on my own, doing stuff like metal sucks my own website
for about five or six years. And then I got hired right on another website called creative live, which was a little more education oriented and industry oriented. And then it kind of like that kind of reconfigure the way I was seeing things as well because I was like, Okay, if I'm doing this, and I have a skill set here, and this seems to be I seem to be pretty good at this. I don't have to be so desperate to get it.
Okay.
So and then I was like, No, I can be choosier and, and really just find something that suits where I want to be. So you know, and then I think you'd go out, you do a bunch of things and see what sticks. But then you kind of find some gigs
¶ Touring with Meta Cohen
that work out. So I started touring with a may tall Cohen, who is a really well known drummer, female drummer. And then she got famous doing covers on YouTube, massive audience, and she made an original album with this sky. Sahaja ticketaim, who's the main singer songwriter, I
had him on, I listened to your interview with him to great, great guy,
great guy. And he brought me into that. And that was a really great project to be a part of, I thought the music was great. being made tall got along really well. Everyone in the band was cool. And it was fun. It was like a fun thing to like. They it was basically a studio record. And it's like, oh, let's make this. Let's try and play the studio record live and put a band together and rehearse and, and we did a tour with queens Reich and was like, Oh, this is a cool thing. And
we're out here. We're like, we're doing the thing. And people, you know, the band went over well, and it was fun. And we did the one tour and it was split with the singer. And then she just never replaced the singer. Ah, so it was literally it was funny because came off tour and I was like, kind of psyched I got we got a cool thing. And it was like kind of radio silence and there was just
not much to do. And that's literally right around the time john, hit me up about doing bad wolves, but it was it was okay. It was called, I have tongues is a gay you know, because Max was the original guitar player didn't really want to be in the band in the band. He just wanted to be like a behind the scenes guy. So so that's how that opportunity I just started and live it was just awesome. And I
had time. I didn't really have you know, project I was on my other band Vegas nerve that we've done some shows that summers and I was like, kind of writing music for that. But nothing that I could really sink my teeth into. So it's just like, and that's just how things work out. One thing kind of ends another another. Another door closes another door opens. And
¶ Bad Wolves Cover of "Zombie" & Cranberries Singer
then yeah,
well worked out. I mean that so that first single the zombie obviously Everyone knows that song. I actually I sent that to one of my friends last night he goes, I've never heard that. But I love it. It's better than the original. And I didn't know this part of it, though, that the original singer of the cranberries was supposed to sing on the track. And on the day that she was set to record with you. That's the day she passed away. What are the odds of that's just bizarre?
Yeah, it is a stranger than fiction, I think. And, and like I said, it's something that I wasn't necessarily involved with setting it up, or even had a great awareness. I was happy. It was something I had heard about myself, but you hear things like that, right? It almost sounds fake, right? It's like, oh, we're looking actually get Dolores from cranberries, the singing on the song like, and you It sounds like someone's bullshitting. Yeah. And apparently, was it was happening and
would have been co leads then or was it gonna be just her singing?
No, I think it was just gonna be you know, I don't I don't know how it was going to be set up. But usually it's like, you know, one verse and chorus. Okay. Who knows? Yeah. How the arrangement was it was going to go. But But yeah, so. And it's a tragedy. Of course, she died way too young. And, but somehow we got brought into that. And we were a brand new band. And we were made out of a couple songs out, no record out. No touring. So it was like this
kind of blank canvas. And we were basically part of that story. You know, and so the decision was made to to release the song.
Yeah. And I love to that you guys are donating the proceeds of that song to her children. That's like a really cool move.
Well, honestly, if we didn't do that, or something like that, I think it would have looked, it would have looked bad.
I mean, you'd be surprised how many people don't do stuff like that. So yeah. But
listen, I think being removed from it a few years from now, it's easy to kind of look at it as like it was Oh, you couldn't do that I you know, I listened. That was tough. It was so bittersweet, right? all this attention and get kind of a leg up in terms of your career. But it is on the back of something really tragic. And the whole time I was, we were going through that I tried to just keep that in my mind. That, oh, this is a cool thing for your
career. But it's it's at it, you know, it's because of something terrible. You know, and that's, that is that's emotionally a very tough thing to deal with. If you're actually thinking about it, if you're actually keeping that.
Well, I think you guys kind of brought the song back to life. And so I think it was a I think it was definitely a positive thing, especially if you're donating the proceeds to our show. I think that's like, Oh, really, really cool stuff.
Yeah, I, I know, but it's still just like, even like when we were shooting the music video, I just the whole time. I'm just trying to think about her. Right? Like, I'm legitimately like trying to be in that like, almost like morning, you know, like like being contemplated and being mindful of the somber somberness of what that kind of meant and then even like playing the song live like it became almost this
symbol of loss. And so we play the song live and he will be crying because it and it completely changed the the context of kind of what the song meant, because obviously it's a political song about very particular historical or events and then kind of being recontextualized. to, to kind of connect to this to the singer and this artist who had who passed away. So it was it's, it's a lot it's something that I said I you know, it's not I feel
no ownership over it at all. I just feel like I was just this passenger and this this kind of rocket ship that just so all the cascade of emotions and ups and downs and kind of one, one event, but it was a life changing event.
Yeah, we know that's really cool. And then
¶ Casey Jones of Phoenix & Special Guest Singers
another really cool thing you guys did I don't even know if you remember this, but there was a kid from Phoenix. Do you remember Casey Jones? He sang that song your version of a karaoke the video went viral. And then you guys brought him up on stage to sing with you when when you guys played in Phoenix. That is so cool. Yeah, I
mean, that happened a few times. We really yeah, we we bring kids up to saying and we bring just, you know, people they were in the the meet and greet and they're like, Oh, I'm a singer, I'll say oh, you know, you know, we bring people on all the all the time. Like that. Cuz, you know, you bring someone you know we're doing some of these arena shows or amphitheaters is 10,000, we bought that. It's like the highlight of their life. So for sure, yeah,
you gave that kid a story to tell and a highlight of his life for sure.
It's awesome. Yeah, let's say things, things like that. It's like, you have the good fortune to kind of be in this position to do these monumental shows and just giving anyone a little taste of that. It's, it's like the least the least we can do and it's it's fun for us because they're up there. beaming and excited and scared and everything you're like, you don't think hey, come come sharing this like crazy circus.
Yeah, that's like you got to kind of get to be Santa Claus a little bit. I think some of this stuff.
Yeah, there's actually another video where Ivan moody from five finger. He's in the crowd. Or he's like walking from like, drugs. He didn't come from behind stage. He came from like, in front of the Barricade he and I guess it was raining or something. Yeah. umbrella. And he just comes on stage and just takes her bike and just started singing zombie with us. It
was fucking
That's awesome. Check that out. That's on YouTube. Yeah. Okay, I'll check that out. Yes, I mean, you've
¶ Tommy Vext Leaves Bad Wolves
had and you've had other hitches three other number one rock songs. And then hear me now was number two and then learn to walk again at top 10 song. So the band's kicking ass. Now Tommy leaves the band, and you never said (or) did you say why he left? A lot of people speculated? I don't know, you guys didn't say I don't know if I can ask you....
He said a lot of things.
But you guys have never said.. I mean, he said he left , and he blamed it on political differences or disagreements, you guys kind of just took the high road...
That's a lie...
That's a lie?
It's a lie. I mean, he's just saying, He's just think about it, right? You're in a situation where you're not in the band anymore, there's a separation or something, and you want a narrative that's going to work for you. He went and raised $200,000 off of that idea. So it's like, it's a narrative that that worked, and we said nothing. Because we felt that it just wasn't the right time to
kind of address those things. I mean, there's a lot of disagreements about that, but what we should say what we shouldn't say, but the band was in a situation where we thought we were gonna be able to work out a deal, to have him exit, but, yeah, that's not what it's about. And I'm not gonna talk about all the actual things right now. But, he's saying, what's, what's working for him?
And, it's unfortunate... it's become a very, very divisive situation, it's become harrowing, where we, essentially we've been... people that are supposed to be our fans, just like, "You're nothing you're over. I'm not gonna support the band." I mean, a lot of people. I mean, wow. So it's a tough thing. It's something I never really anticipated. I never thought I'd be in a situation where we'd be carrying on without Tommy. So that's something I thought would happen. But, it's really
unfortunate. And we're kind of in this weird time period. Now it's like we're we have a new singer, we have a record. That's pretty much done. And we're trying to just finish everything up and but we haven't given it to the people yet. So it's this weird kind of negative space like purgatory. Time and like sitting there are certain things where that we don't feel comfortable talking about publicly.
But what's he did he quit? Or was he fired? Or was it a mutual splitting?
Well, I'll say this, he literally could not be fired. He literally could have cannot cannot be fired
Because a deal the band signed?
We're co owners. 50-50. . So if the deal was set up, so literally, no one can be fired. So it's only a, you know, hey, I don't want to be in the band with you anymore. At that point, there's no band. But Tommy was cool with letting us continue on. But I think in that situation, people want to save face and go, "I quit.. but I was also kicked out because of cancel culture. Which one is it? Did you quit? Or did you get get kicked out?
okay, yeah.
He's saying what he needs to say for a narrative that for a certain group of people that want to believe that like, so we we haven't even put out a narrative. So it's like was that but in the in, there's a good chance, right? That if this comes out, and he hears it, he'll go on live and say terrible things about me....
You think he will say terrible things about you? You seem so cool. Nice. Having you. Apparently you haven't been following this? I haven't. Well, not apparently not enough. Yeah, I just knew that he left, and he said some things and your guys's statement was very short and very sweet. And there wasn't a lot of reasons. So that's why I just curious, I was like, wait, what happened? I don't really understand.
I'm of the mind, in general, that we can disagree agreeably?
Sure.
I personally believe in being graceful in life. And that it is not necessarily the best tact to air, your dirty laundry everywhere you go. That has not been really respected on the other side of this line. So you haven't been following it. But it's been as ugly as it could possibly be. So I'm not going to go into details about that. There's ways to find out
a little bit, I saw some things that I was just like, I figured I'd ask you, because I couldn't find anything that you had specifically said, or the band had, except, like a short tweet or something. I probably said more on here than I I've actually said, so. Yeah, so I did my job.
Yeah. And yeah, and that's been, our, basically, philosophy is to just try and take the high road, not dealing the muck, I think the hard thing, when this is like the challenge of the modern era and being traversing social media,
¶ Social Media & Negative Comments
right, we kind of like, exists in this world of social media, where people have this direct access to you. And I've never in my life, really, at scale, had people go out of their way to tell me, not only that I was going to fail, that they wanted
me to fail. And these people that were your former supporters, and I think that psychologically, even if it's not someone you personally know, or someone says to your face, I think the brain still translates that as like, real kind of, like, it's difficult not to somehow, accept that emotionally. Right? Like, you have to kind of deal with that. And that's a very stressful
environment. And that's something we've all dealt with, and so, we've taken breaks from social media, it's a very tough thing, and it's a challenge of our time, is to figure out how do you deal with that? Do you ignore people? Do you challenge them right? So if someone comes onto your page and says something that's clearly bad information, right, they don't have the right story. Do you
correct them? Do you know I'm saying like, and it's 10 people can't do that every time he or then you just someone who's literally like arguing with people on the internet.
I hate that shit.
Exactly. It's it becomes kind of this empty kind of void that you just can never get out of and you try and align yourself in a way that It's positive and productive and focus on that. But it is something, it is a challenge that we're still going to have to kind of wrangle one way or another, we're not through it. And so yeah, it's like I said, not something I anticipated not something I have a complete great handle on. I've pretty thick skin, like I said I would do these articles with Vh1.
People post it, I'd have 100 people call me an idiot, right? But in a weird way, that was a lot easier to take. Because they didn't...they almost weren't talking to me. They werent calling me an idiot. It was like whoever wrote this is an idiot. Right? And it really wasn't personal. I knew. But this is like, No, I don't like YOU. And I know you and I loved your band before. And now I HATE your band.
You know? Yes.
Yeah, that's it, it's fucked up. It's fucked up to know when somebody's out there actively hating you and actively wanting you to fail, and trying to do things that help you fail and ramp and telling everybody that how terrible you are. It's a weird feeling to have that. Well, and it's especially on your level. I can't I can't imagine how many people I mean, obviously, a lot of people love you, too. But then there's a lot of people that don't like it as well, that's got to be stressful. Well, I
think the we want to believe right? That we're unaffected, right? You know, I'm, I'm over here. You can, it was fixing stones, right? Whereas that's bullshit, right? And it was almost almost every bar fights ever happened with because someone said something first. Okay. So this idea that that words are not effective, we don't have some way to kind of push you but these, the point of this is to provoke, right. That's the mindset of right. is to get a reaction is to get you
caught in a trap. Right. So it is for me, and I think everyone involved just anyone who deals any form of online criticism, how do you actually confront that? So I've seen literally the biggest artists and most famous people in the world. I see. Kevin Durant, right, from, you know, Brooklyn Nets. Clapping back at people online. I see.
Ilan Musk, who's a billionaire, one of the richest people I know, he's clapping back at people.
That's what I'm saying, like, so it's just to some degree, it might be the most natural thing in the world to just say, if someone comes at you, well, you're going to give it to me, I'm going to give it give it back. a hundredfold. Right, so what's the best methodology? Is it? I'm gonna get rid of comments, or I'm not gonna be on social media, or do I ignore it? Do I delete? Do I
write do? What do you think is the best way? Um,
I mean, I, the best way is probably just to, you know, block them, ignore them just don't don't give them the daylight, I think, where I do think there is some applicable recourse is if someone is saying something that's demonstrably false, I think it helps to at least correct the record true. If you're being criticized on kind of false premises, or false, you know, kind of narrative go, Hey, listen, you don't have your facts correct.
Um, you know, and maybe, you know, if you're in a position to, to correct that a lot of this stuff, we have them in a position to actually talk about
publicly. So it's, it's not, you know, and a lot of that is, you know, fear of retaliation, because, you know, we're dealing with a situation with where someone, you know, doesn't have the same discipline, as we do, or kind of, you know, want for things to be drama free or not be kind of, you know, just it's very ugly, it's very muddy in the, you know, show you don't want my but I think we've learned about this, this kind of current era is that it really only needs one side to pull you
in the mud, right? So it's saying you're the worst person of all time. You're kind of already in though even if you don't say anything. I like something I realized during this whole process, I go, I'm like, you guys know, they were like a it's a east coast. West Coast beef. Remember that? 90?
of those. Yeah.
He literally never said anything about Tupac. Not one thing, and he still got shot. Do you know and it made me aware of like, you really don't even need two sides of a feud. Someone could just come at you. And it's almost like when people they almost presume both sides are going back and forth at each other. You know, it's this weird thing. Yeah,
preach. You're preaching to the choir here. I
totally get all this. But I didn't notice that until I was involved in one all right. Crazy where people like man, they're they're doing this. They're doing I'm like, we're literally doing nothing.
I know exactly what you're going to Yeah, that's crazy. So
it's so it listen. And to some degree, it's unprecedented because of the tools of social media and the ability to engage in a public arena. And where you're kind of, at the whims of whatever your, your power is, right. So, the more followers you have, the more power you have. Right? So if I have 30, some 1000 followers, another person has 300,000 followers, are we fighting a fair fight?
Well, if you get on blabber mouth, they got like a million followers. So you get on loudwire some of these websites got millions of people Rolling Stone, all those.
But again, it's I don't know. Rolling Stone isn't a mouthpiece for coil, you know, it's I, you know, it's and then once it once you go to that place, right? If I'm going there, and I'm going to fight the, the, you know, the war of words in the pub, now you're in it. Now you're really in it. And then now you have to end there's always blowback, right? Like there. If this gets like picked up, right, and then doc says this quote,
yeah, they always take the worst thing that you say,
there will be blowback? Sure. Trust me. And, you know, and that's just because I choose to say a little
¶ Politics, Divineness, & Information Warfare
bit. Yeah, just the political narrative is bullshit. And it's opportunistic. And the whole point is to manipulate people on partisan terms, is to weave the band narrative into their already pre existing political narrative, which is we're on team, whatever. And if you're with our team, then you'll hate those guys, because they're on the other team. And it's like,
Yeah, and that's and see, that's what was so interesting to me. Because when I saw that thing that it was about politics, I was like, Huh, that's interesting, because I heard an interview with you where you said, Yeah, I kind of lean left, but I'm more of a centrist. And I like to hear other people's viewpoints. And I want to understand where they're coming from. So I was like, Well, that doesn't sound like that fits with, at least for
your perspective. Like you're more interested in hearing other different perspectives than your own. You're not trying to convince other people that what you think is right, you're more trying to understand the other. And I think that's a big thing that's lacking. And just in the world today, before this
kind of environment we're in right now, which I think is a, a severe breakdown in the ability to actually Converse and learn. Because there's me now and say, 10 years ago, or eight years ago, 15 years ago, at least 10 years ago, we were kind of all operating with the same group of facts, right? Like I can send you if you came, and you said a statement, I go, listen, that's not really true. And I sent you a link. This You see, that's not really right. You'd be like, Oh,
I guess I had that wrong. Now, if I sent you that same link, you go, Well, that's fake news. That's your that's your that's the the the liberal whatever the mainstream blah, blah, right?
Or the conservative? Yeah, it goes both. Like, there's the websites, the news is a partisan, it's not in the middle anymore.
Oh. So people lack media literacy. They have an inability to ascertain what's a reality and not reality. And this is vast. And so I've chosen more, to not have the
conversation. Because if we have an inability to listen to each other in a good faith, right where I don't and and I think the biggest problem is, is that people have an inability currently, to not presume that if you voted for this person, or you're with this side, or your you tend to lean that way, that you're not either crazy or evil. And people can't do that. They presume, right? If I'm Mr. lefty, and if I'm like, oh, you're a Trump supporter, where you're either crazy or you're
evil. That's the only way you could support Trump. Oh, if you're, you're biting your your communists.
It's true. Yeah, you're like, no, it's like people say, if you're Republican, you're accused of being a racist. If you're a Democrat, you're accused I guess Communist or the big enemy they say is that a lot of the democrats are pedophiles. And so that's the big thing that the thing that
once you get to that point, you're not having commerce. Because there's, it's, there's nothing beyond that. Right? There's nothing. It's not just pedophiles, that they're eating babies.
And it makes me laugh every time because there's people that actually believe this stuff. And it's comical to me. I don't know, maybe that maybe it's true. I can't like I said, I take it all with a grain of salt. But it does make me laugh. It's literally the plot of it. Yeah, except for the clown in the sewer. And
nobody, he literally, it only works because they're afraid. And the clown true. shows them because they're frayed, which is the same thing they say about adrenochrome? Or that, that it's the you know, you know, it's no, but but that's I'm saying we're not operating in a world of of reality. And the thing about all I say, Great liars. And also people who who kind of deal in this Neo, conservative or not conservative conspiracy world is that it all has a grain of truth
in there somewhere. Right? Sure. Something like a Jeffrey Epstein. Right. angle. Well, that that happened. So then clearly, it's like, well, no, I mean, they weren't chosen. They were they were like teenagers, and it was sex trafficking. And it was horrible. And he's a terrible person. But it's not eating babies, right. And so but they'll find, and so it's a it's a tough thing. And the truth is, if you if I'm talking to someone who truly believes in
that, right,
there's nothing, there's literally nothing I can say there's no piece of evidence, there's no logic way I can break it down. Logically, that will undo their beliefs, because it starts with the belief. And then they they do confirmation bias and, and work backwards to find evidence that supports something that they already believe. And it's says it's very, very easy to
discredit someone. And for me, to get you to believe something bad about a person or institution is very easy for me to get you to believe something good about a person, or an institution is very hard. So with these things, all I'm doing is removing credibility from people and institution size, you know, and that is basically it for me to win, right? It's not that I got to get as tall as you, I just have to cut off your legs. And that's basically where
we're where we're at. It's a It's a type of kind of information, warfare, that is effective in in that when I'm trying to fight a public war, right, a war of like, like, if I don't like Hillary Clinton, or I'm just say the craziest worst thing you can. And I'm not saying here like, probability, chronic cleaning, I'm just saying, if I'm trying to win, and I'm people don't like me, I just make you not like her. And just take that in, like, oh, that works. So let's just do
that with everyone else. Oh, that worked with, you know, whoever you don't like just go out and just tar and feather them? And it does, it kinda doesn't matter, it becomes a really difficult scenario. So anyway, I kind of went down a little bit of rabbit.
That was fun. That was a fun rabbit. I know. But I agree. And it goes. And like I said, I think it goes both ways. I think the both sides are doing it to each other. And, and you know, especially with a lot of this stuff, like, you know, like you said, the drainer chrome and stuff like that. It scares you. But then they take some of the stuff like the Me too, and the racism and stuff. And it's the same thing, they find this grain of truth, and then they blow it
out of proportion. I mean, obviously, some of those a lot of those stories are obviously real and legit. But some of it's like, they're really like fishing for things. And it's almost like they're happy when they find it like oh, look what this person said and 1974 and I mean, it's I don't know, it's like, it's You're right. It's just it's so negative. It's like it's not about building someone else. It's like cutting everyone else's legs off like well, I listen, I
¶ Monsters in the Shadows & Woke To Your Thing
this is complex stuff, right? And I think you can what we're seeing is kind of these competing philosophies where I think moral in a two cent sense moral panics are created. And then people start seeing monsters in the shadows. Right so if you're, I say it's like I think it's funny that like the word woke is mainly utilized for people very left left of center, but actually think everyone's woke, but they're only woke they're woke to their thing, right? So I'm, you know, really like my ideas.
Everyone's racist, right. So now attuned to an idea. Now I'm going to start seeing things that maybe are there maybe aren't there. monsters in the shot? That's
a great, you should make that a song. That's a cool title. What? monsters in the shadows? I've never heard that.
Yeah, but it's it's this. It's this thing of once you make yourself aware to it, then you're going to see it everywhere. Right. Right. And so whatever that awareness whether that's, you know, things, I just don't think the world is a very absolute place. I think it's a lot more nuanced. I think it's a lot more, you have to look at every situation for what it is. Right? Yeah. And, but people don't have the ability to do that. They can only draw big generalizations, I
think. And that's Yeah. Because it takes too much work to just divide things as they are. I think people have to draw. The people have to, we tend to draw narratives and make pattern recognition.
So yeah, it's like, No, I think the solution is not
¶ The South, Big Cities, & Politics
go check out the other party's new site, or check out this website, get off the internet, go out into the real world, and just start talking to people. I remember the first time I went down to the south. I was like, I was so curious about the south, because I hear all these things I see all at the south is racist. And so I'm thinking like, I'm going to the south. What, where do you live? I'm from Seattle, and then I live in
Phoenix now. But so I'm going to the south, we're going to North Carolina, and we drove around South Carolina as well. So I'm thinking, Okay, I'm thinking there's gonna be Confederate flags everywhere. There's going to be like racist stuff everywhere. The people I talked to are going to be really racist. And I just didn't. I mean, I saw a little bit of that, but it wasn't like, the media portrait, like I thought the South was all these like,
redneck racist. I mean, there may be some of those people there. I'm not saying it's zero. But it was like, not what I saw. I was like, Oh, this is, this is pretty much just like the rest of America, like, especially like Charlotte is just like any other big city. It's like Denver. It's like Seattle, Phoenix. I
mean, here's the divide, though, that there's no such thing as this. Oh, red state blue state divide. That's not what it is. The divide is between urban and rural. So if you go to major cities, I
mean, those guys that we drove around all that I was like, looking for, like, yeah, the cities are liberal. Of course. Yeah, that's true. For sure. Like big cities. Yeah.
And that is, by the way, it's not because of some grand conspiracy. It's just this the lifestyle of living in a city tends to make you they're more diverse, you live, or so you tend to think more in collectivist terms. If you live in a rural area, you're you are literally more on your own.
Right, if you call the cops, it might take them 20 minutes, because everyone lives for the way you need to run, because you have a lot of land, and maybe there's going to be animal on there or hunting as part of your culture. And it's a little more normalized, there's all these things, though, you're a little less trusting of people, because you live in a place where there's not that many people and you don't, you're more self reliant, because of just the terrain and the way you live.
And so there's loads of things are embedded that are not that people presume it's just, you know, like I said, it's a lot It is steeped in this bad faith, you know, and listening, being a musician. We, our bread and butter is playing down south and in Texas and in Middle America,
right? So you, you get to know the people and you get to get out of these fucking stereotypes, that I think people have a very difficult time not presuming that just because someone lives a different lifestyle than them that they're a bad person. And most of us are really products of our environment, right? Like we the people in Reuters tend to be more conservative because the environment imposes these kind of invisible pressures to fit
in. Right same thing in the city there's more little more pressure to be liberal or to at least even if you don't believe certain things, at least project that you do. Right so that people don't
let's point
out right so so I would say the liberal areas are not quite as liberal as people think they are. And the conservative areas aren't quite as conservative as people think they are. But people feel this outward pressure to kind of fit in and you know, like my takeaway from 2016 was like to listen more expand. Don't be in the bubble, right? And unfortunately, I feel like so many people did the opposite. They hunkered more Are you know, the our echo chambers are
tighter, more restrained. And what that's a kind of you need a vast self awareness. But I think people feel like they're
individual threats. Right? So if you're a, you know, on the right, your, like, critical race theory is in every school and they're brainwashing our children and it's going to be I don't know what they also would like camps or bread lines, I don't know, some crazy thing like the economy is going to be destroyed because they're gonna, I don't know, there's there's always gonna be something right and the left thinks that you know it's going to be authoritarians, but I think
honestly, I think there's actually a little more credence in that. But if you know, if you if every interaction you really believe, is like this, if we elect the wrong person, this will be the end of the world. Yeah, like, and the truth is, I do think police with the right it's like, they bind those all those guns for no reason, right? Like they're preparing for something. And because they're being hyped up that you're going to need those guns because of
tyranny, right? The second amendment to fight tyranny of what, what manifests itself in a lot of ways. So I think that temperature is so high. And all these media segments are always telling you, this election is the most important election in your life. Yeah, but honestly,
is it really though, because, like, I look at all the elections, and I go, I don't know that it made that big of a difference in my life, personally, like if I had just turned off the newspapers and the TVs and the social media if I didn't know I don't know that it would mean maybe the price of gas or corn is different. I don't know. But it depends who you are exaggerated a little I think.
No, I listen. I think if you're relatively middle class relatively self sufficient. I think the the ebbs and flows of the federal government probably affect you very little right, your taxes go up a little bit, your taxes go down a little bit, you know, and it's it's really hard, you know, but I think where these things are felt are on the margins, right? Like, the day that Trump got in like you had all these Pete these refugees who were like, slated to come they were
like on a waiting list. They were like waiting in a camp. And they're like, Oh, I'm leaving to go to America on Tuesday and they're like, no, you're not and that's it. You go back to some war torn part of Africa or something and you're fucked right? I remember like reading those stories and things like that like to that person
Yeah.
That's true. or hurt their life right? So things like that. That matter so but I think for you know someone like myself Can I if I ignored it would I be pretty much okay yeah, because I you know, I do okay enough I'm not necessarily overly reliant on you know, a welfare programs but certain things like you know, like I live in California they have a pretty great health care system I get some my I get subsidies for health care. So my health care that would cost $400 cost $130
Nice.
Things like that were like okay, but that but by the way that would exist in California even if Obamacare didn't exist, right. So so there are things like that that are pretty actionable you go Okay, that I can tell affects my life but probably local governments more important than the federal for a lot of people. But even if that were true, what my one little PCs vote really have swung anything, right, one way or another. Right. That's,
that's that's everything. So even if I was not, if I was super clued in and like, put all
¶ New Singer for Bad Wolves & New Album
my eggs in this basket, ultimately, just Well, I'm just one vote, right? And I'm probably not going no one election, local or otherwise is going to be swayed because of that. So
yeah, we got to band together, but Okay, we got on a huge tangent, but no, I did want to ask you so I mean, moving on from Tommy, now you you look for a new singer. And you had about 20 possibilities. And you whittled it down to five who are some Can you say who some of the possibilities are or is that like disrespectful to the
I don't really want to say it at this moment. Okay. I feel like we're kind of I almost would rather when we're like the we're up and running, we have music out we're kind of doing things because there are some singers that are great and I want to get a lot of attention and I want I want to help their careers out as well because there are people who are closer I just think are awesome. Yeah. That's it. Didn't ultimately we went for with a different
choice. Yeah. But because I think right now we just want to focus on do
yeah. So you guys unanimous decision to choose him? And he said he's easy going, you know easy to get along with the even temperament you know not too high or too low. But so what can you tell us about the upcoming album? I heard it's called "Dear Monsters" - when does it come out? Do you have any song titles? Are there any cover songs or so
I'm not gonna divulge a song titles right now I have not been given that. When it's coming out again, usually the way labels work are, they're not going to give you like a release date until you essentially turn in a record. Okay. And we were pretty much we thought we were done. And then label one and a couple they wanted, they wanted some different kinds of songs. So we went back to the drawing board, and I think made like four or five new songs on top of
the 13 we already had. And with that, it was it's just something better noise does because they, they kind of want to, like push you to the brink, because they because you never know you might pull a hit out of your hat. Right. Hmm. And we got some really cool new songs out of it. So but, you know, hopefully we'll have you know, the mixes and masters pretty soon. But I think this whole time, I think we were looking at fall. So
okay, it is because it is going to be 2021 for sure. Yeah, pretty sure. It's all it's all recorded. You just got to remix it and
not really just mix it just just just finished mixing because because we added songs at the end. Okay.
Oh, yeah, it's
just the process and our producer was caught who was mixing was like working on another record. So he's, it's
who's the producer, can you say that is, um,
Joseph McQueen. He what we like so we work with a kind of a lot of different people who have a very protracted system kind of working on songs work for some people on this, for example, on this, but he, you know, we've done a lot of prints most of the vocals, you know, maybe about half the songs musically, we done with Joseph. And also it's Josh, from actually dying, it's his partner. So
they were at Sparrow sound. And so he's doing the mixing, he makes the last record as well, he did drums with him. So, yeah, so it's just like, Listen, this album, feels like our own little Chinese Democracy, because we started it. At the beginning, baseball, you know, Mark, you know, the beginning of the pandemic 2020? And, yeah, so well, what can I say about the album, I think
it's much more streamlined. In terms of the sound out in that I think we've kind of tweaked in the edges, a little bit of the heavy side of the band, and the kind of commercial side of the band, so that things feel more like it's one band, as opposed, I feel like the last record felt a little add, in my opinion, whereas, you know, so and I just think overall, the songwriting is much better.
I did, did the new singer help out with a songwriting?
He wrote one song, dl wrote, and then he, wrote vocals and lyrics, I mean, at least a half dozen songs, like wrote or co wrote, with the, with the band, so he definitely contributed quite a bit. And he's dude, he's a great writer is a great, musically and vocally. So he's, it's a real asset to have have dl involved. And it's exciting. And covers. Look, we had some covers left over, because we were doing this
Patreon thing. But I don't think any of those are gonna make it but I'm actually working on a cover right now. That is still being put together. So who knows if it if it makes, I doubt I'll make the record, but maybe it'll come out at some point. Who knows? But, uh, but we'll see. Cuz I think, philosophically, I think there was an idea to kind of step away from the cover thing for a minute, because it was so kind of pervasive and, and to kind of put the focus on the originals,
¶ Whitfield Crane of Ugly Kid Joe
didn't you? So yeah, were you are you kind of in a cover band with Whitfield crane from ugly kid Joe? Or was that just like a one time thing,
though? The wedding band? Yeah, it's a cover man. It does, like priest and Sabbath and, you know, a bunch of funk tunes. The wedding band? Yeah,
that's what it's called the wedding man. Yeah,
but like I said, we done. They've done at least one or two shows before I joined the band, but I've done too. Okay.
Yeah, I'm a big I might be a weirdo. But I'm a big ugly kid. Joe fan. I had de fortement on I don't know if you're familiar with him, but he's a producer too is really interesting guy, though. I'm
dude. It's Completely surreal to be in a band with Whitfield and like, text with them and hang out with them because I literally are the same time I was watching Guns and Roses and videos. So it's it's dude and he's so incredible, like, just in a room. Because you know so many bands today it's like backing tracks and auto tune and just to like be in a room with an incredible singer.
Yeah, he is amazing. underrated for sure. Like,
yes. And almost where I'm like, he should be way more famous than he is, in my opinion, right?
I always thought so. Yeah, for sure. He hasn't done your show yet. Has he?
know we've talked about it? And basically, they have a new record or something coming out? Yeah. I'm it. Okay. We're on there. But we're gonna we're gonna get him on the show. We talked. I tried to do it when we had the last show. But we were just, we were literally busy all day, every day. We just couldn't work it out. But he is in dude, and he has this stories for days. And just any such like a bombastic personality. I can't wait to get on the show. today. I
want to have on my show. I've keep reaching out to him. And I'm like, they just don't respond. Maybe they're waiting until the new maybe then he'll do a bunch of a junket or whatever. Okay, part of the
five minutes left. I have I have Yes. My other show. But yeah, you won't have any anything else. We can kind of wrap it
up. Okay. Yeah, no, that's right. Yeah. It's weird. sick. I kept you away longer. Oh, my last thing is I always just end with the charity of the guest choices are a charity or
¶ Water Charity & Interview Summary
nonprofit that you'd like to work with, or you want to promote here at the end? What I had something here.
So I don't I was doing when I first started doing what's it called? cameo. I was actually giving money to a charity that was for COVID relief workers. Okay. But I actually don't even have it in front of me. So I was doing that. And then I found this really sad. Yeah, I guess I'm just I don't have a right. So I kind of on this one that's actually to help develop clean water. And it sounds good. You know, the third world and I cannot find that one either. That's okay.
Just send me the link. And I'll put it in the notes. So clean water. I'll put it in the notes of this episode. And people can click on that and throw a few but I'll put the obviously the bad wolf website as well. People can check everything out on that. I'm sure you guys have a website, I'm assuming, right?
Yeah, yeah.
I don't know what it was. I mean, last month in our site, kind of forget that. Websites exist.
Yeah, I'll put that on there. But they're just so that'll have the links to all your social media and all that stuff as well. And, and so yeah, if people want to check all that stuff out, they can. So thank you so much for doing this. I'll let you get to your next podcast. You're busy, man. I appreciate you squeezing me in.
Anytime. This is this is a lot of fun. It's actually drove to do an interview with someone who's prepared. Yes. We have a nice below. Yeah. political stuff. I get a little worried because I feel like it's difficult for people to listen and not. Oh, now you're this person. You know, I'm
saying like, you know, cuz I think you keep an open mind. I think that's why we're able to have this and I think we're, we're pretty, we're both pretty Central. So I don't think it's like, you know, we're screaming at each other. Like, I really like hearing your I like hearing different people's perspectives, because everyone like you pointed that out. Everyone has a different perspective. So
here's the problem when you're a fairly centrist person, if you lean one way to a partisan. You seem like the other side right
now. That's true. I've been accused of being a Trump supporter and a flaming liberal. So I don't know
that. But that's what I'm saying. So to someone who has a skewed idea of reality, you seem like you're right. On the other side. So it's, it's I'm just saying it's a very difficult time to traverse these issues in a way where we're all like, sit just engaging Goofy, so
yeah, no, I really appreciate that was a great discussion. So hopefully, everyone else agrees. Definitely. Chuck with us, and you have a great day. Thanks so much for your talk. Okay. All right. Thanks, Doc. See you
¶ Wrap Up
later. All I can say is wow, I think I'm still just blown away with this interview. We discussed so many things, obviously, music, and that part was fascinating and his story. But I don't know, I kind of enjoyed all the social issues and the rabbit holes that we went down. I never really designed this show to be like that. In fact, I've tried to steer clear of politics at the show's inception. But now I feel like it's just one of those things that you just can't avoid. It's on everybody's mind.
And I think it's okay to discuss it a little here and there, especially if it ties into other subjects. And sometimes it's just so hard to avoid. What I don't want to do is get on big rants and arguments defending one political party over the other or this politician is great or this one's terrible. But I really enjoyed the back and forth that doc and I had on all these topics. And I hope you did too. So make sure to follow doc and bad wolves on social
media. And of course, go see them if they come to your town on tour. You can follow me on social media as well. And your likes, shares and comments helped me more than you can know. And if you want to go that extra mile, like I said, you can write me a review on iTunes or wherever you listen. The link for the iTunes review is in the show notes. You just have to scroll all the way down to the
bottom to write the review. And of course, you can subscribe to the show on YouTube or wherever you listen and that way you won't miss any future episodes. And I do have some really great guests booked and some other ones that will hopefully be confirmed soon. So okay, I will end it now. Thank you for listening. Have a great day and remember to shoot for the moon.