Yeah, so I've been waiting ask you this for like, I don't know, 15 years or something. The whole remaking Vince Neil, I kept waiting for that part to get to the in the book. You don't bring it up. So because that was a big thing for me. It was the first time I got to see your face. I read your name and all the liner notes albums, and then you show your face. So what happened with that whole thing? Because that's, I feel like the song promise me which was brilliant and never came out.
I know. I mean, I just did it for the for the show. And, you know, Rick beato and I wrote and produced a song together. And it turned out so good, right. But you know, who knows where he was at with Motley Crue at the time, and you know, were they going to get back together tour, be a solo thing, I don't know. But the one very cute thing that happened was that his wife was so sweet. And she one of her things was
she would rescue dogs. And especially, you know, Cocker Spaniels, and we had one that had gotten very old. And, and so we also had moved to a small house with our children. And, you know, it's like, there was no place in the yard for our kids to play with, you know, the dog. And there were two other dogs and it was like crazy. So she took sassy to Vegas. And that sassy, who was already old, was already, you know, kind of in her latter years. And she lived, you know, they showed us
pictures. Of course, you know, she had a little place to sleep that like, like, tiger print. And, you know, like, with her name on the basket, like she had it made, you know, it's like, I wish it they had adopted me, you know? And so that's pretty funny. That bill adopted our dog.
That's interesting. Yeah, cuz I thought they were saying that you guys are gonna make a whole album. I saw an article about that. And I was like, Yeah, I wonder. I love the song. I think you people can get it illegally, but it never even came out on like iTunes. It's really bizarre.
Really? Oh, yeah. I gotta talk to Rick about that. He's smart about all these things. So yeah, I'm gonna I'm going to be interviewed by him for his podcasting. Oh, yeah,
he's got a huge show on YouTube.
You know, so I haven't seen him since that session. Okay.
And then the other thing I was gonna ask you, so I read the book, loved it. People definitely should get a copy. I think I have a physical copy coming. But I read it digitally. But the part that I was so confused about and so intrigued about two was this David Lee Roth, and Van Halen thing says like two things like first you're supposed to write with David Lee Roth. And he shows up with the strippers, which is just weird. But then you said
you never wrote with him. But then later, you're supposed to write with Van Halen, and that he shows up, so I'm going
to bust it all up.
What was their singer?
I don't know what it was, it was like, maybe haggard left. And now they were looking for a new lead singer. And I was recommending Mitch Malloy, who was a great rock singer, you know, and I thought he could pull it off. And, you know, he had the golden locks and all that stuff. And so I went up there, and he shows up, you know, top down, you know, look at like, look like a video shoot, you know, and then he
gets out of the car. And then before you know it, like, no, no song was started and then I had to leave. And you know, it was like, I never got asked back. It was you know, he came in there and just like busted it all up.
But that was so that's the one with Van Halen.
The session with Van Halen Yeah.
So the first one with just him Why did you guys not write it
didn't come back. You didn't come back. Maybe he didn't think you know it. Maybe I didn't enjoy the girl strippers enough for his taste. I was like in shock. They were like completely nude. You know, doing split beavers, you know, on on this, like, little office that I had. I mean, there was like, it was like just almost like a little closet. But they show up in trench coats and Fedora is in red stiletto heels. And then they had nothing on underneath.
And this is for a songwriting session. This is just one So
it was it was our first meeting. So it was like, he was going to, like, explain what his music was all about. So he gives me a cassette said, well put this in there. This is what I'm all about. And it was like, like real old fashioned stripper music, like, doo doo, doo. And then all sudden, they like, they were like waiting outside, obviously. And so they live in. And then they start doing all these moves, and
everything. And then suddenly he turns off the music, and they like jump up and they they grab their coats and they say, give us a call if you want some more inspiration.
So then a few months later, you're supposed to do work with Van Halen. So how did he did you ever figure out like, How did he find out about it? And craft? Oh,
somebody must have tipped him off from the inside, you know? Or who knows? You know, like, how people are saying, oh, yeah, you know, like we're riding with does a child, we don't need you, you know? Who the hell knows how that that transpired? But it's like, the high school Miss of it all. You know, right? Yes. Yeah.
Because you would have made up you could have made amazing music with Van Halen.
I could have, I should have.
I would have. What about just Sammy Hagar solo? Do you ever you never had a chance to work with him?
So, no, I, you know, it's like, you know, that, you know, your, your career has a lot of ups and downs. And, you know, I was just, you know, we, I was just moving to LA, you know, after this, this is like 1990 91. And I had had to reinvent myself. Because all of my former connections, were all like New York, you know, based. And so, all of a sudden, I was in a whole new place with these West Coast people. I was learning the ropes. Yeah, well,
that is amazing. I was gonna ask you about that. Because that is a very hard thing to do. When Nirvana came along. It's like anybody associated with 80s Rock was like, not cool anymore. And you found a way to be successful in the 80s. And the 90s. You just kept like reading Ricky Martin. And then Katy Perry. And Kelly Clark's, I mean, you're still writing songs? How did you continue to reinvent yourself and not get the stigma of, oh, that's the guy that we're living
on a prayer. We don't want him? Well,
it's by delivering the goods. And maybe it's also looks and charm. I don't know, I just just found a way to stay, you know, with today. And to me, the best way to do that is to stick with the story. What's the story? What is this person want to say? To me style is like, secondary? What, what, what, what is the story here, and getting them to tell their story in a writing session is really important. Because then they're singing something
that's authentic. And when people feel that it's real, they buy it, when they think they're just recreating their past glory, and writing a worse song less than their hit. That's deadly for a career. You see it, you know, it's like, people have to, you know, keep going, if they want to stay in the game. And I once saw a interview with Dolly Parton on Larry King. And I think she said, You know, so distinctly, I remember she says, I want to be an active participant in the entertainment
industry. I mean, that was like, you had it very clear in her mind, an active participant. And I mean, he was saying, you know, at that time, which we Larry King went off the air, like a decade ago, whatever, like, how do you stay in the business? Why do you know? How does your career keep going? Was the same kind of question. And, and so, I'm curious, I love the now there are new artists that I
would love to work with. And I just, you know, would love to be in you know, continue to be in the modern pop. I had a hit couple of years ago with Eva Max. Kings and Queens. I work with rock mafia. We we did a song with Zed. called Beautiful now that was a hit. And now we have a new song. that is with JoJo Siwa Who is this incredible influencer, she was a Disney child star then she went on
Dancing with the Stars. And she came out, you know, as a lesbian, and she danced with a woman on Dancing with the Stars and doing the most incredible face. I mean, just, she looks like a Swiss milkmaid or
something. It's like, you know, like, like, creamy skin with these blue eyes, you know, and like, wow, and if you see her, her YouTube videos of her dancing, you cannot believe I said, Now, when she gets her groove on and does touring with that kind of dancing, and if she's has hits to, to, to sing, she is going to be one of the biggest stars in the world, you know, just she will, she's got that kind of drive. And she's great things great. Dance is great. If you had the message is
today, you know, so fresh. So I'm really excited about that. So we started writing some we have like two other starts to present to her. And, you know, so it's like, you never stop unless you're stopped. Stop, you know, it's like, and I and so they're a young production team. They're producing, I'm just a co writer. And it's like, I leave it in their hands, they sell it, they make it happen. So, and by the way, the song that that judge is thinking now is one that we started with Miley
Cyrus. So Miley is on the song, too. So I'm hoping that Miley jumps in the promotion, you know, to to get her song grew up there, you know, because it's her song. Absolutely. You know. So the point is, is that I love talent. And you know, the thing is that I am running out of time a little bit. I just turned 70. And so I'm like, I'm working on a Broadway musical. I have several, but I have one that's really close that we've been working on since 2005. That's
like 18 years. And now we're ready to go full steam ahead, backers, auditions December 8 in New York City. And it's, it's called Cuba Libre. And it's the true story of my family before and after the Cuban Revolution. And its aftermath. And it's very dramatic, but it's also very sexy. And, and, you know, it's just, it's got it. And, you know, the thing is, is that there's other things I want to do. I mean, I I during this whole last seven years, I've
been writing this book. And finally it was time to release it because new things kept happening. You know, so it's like, I couldn't stop the book. Right? I got a chance to work with my all time idol, Barbra Streisand, and that had to go in the book. And then I got asked to perform at the Odeon of Herodes Atticus in the Acropolis at the foot of the Parthenon.
And it was the concert was called Desmond Child rocks the Parthenon and Alice Cooper came Bonnie Tyler came Rita Wilson King, the rest of us from Finland came, Kip winger came Tabitha fair and Chris Carlson. Jesus just had been low low allele, Dante all these people come together, we had like 18 piece female, a string section, a band that was half Greek musicians, half American, it was
like, epic. And then at the end, 60 Singers, you know, half of them children walked around in the stage, all dressed in white holding these golden orbs and the the video mapping behind every song was different. And it was on the rocks. And it was like, I got to be a star for one night. You know, and and we filmed it all and that's going to be the kind of ticking clock
of my career documentary. So I've been working on on getting a lot of interviews with all the people that I've collaborated with and they've been wonderful and funny, and especially you know, irreverent ones with like John Stamos and stuff and so little by little I'll have all the material I need to make electric Great. A great documentary.
Oh, when is that coming
out? Is that like that? So I don't have a deal or anything. I'm just paying for it all myself. But you know, because I want to go to a company say look, you know, we need, you know, we have all this material, the movies ready to go all I need is the top editor. And, you know, we have the director that is filming all this stuff and Uh, you know, I think that it's going to be very entertaining. But, you know, the thing is, is like, like my book, because my book is very personal
and dramatic. And that has to be part of it as well. It can't be. And then I did this, and then I did that. And then I had a hit song, and then this and that. I mean, to me, that would be deadly. So I want it to be something that captures, you know, the, you know, half a century of being an immigrant.
Even though I was born in states, my mother was Cuban, grew up in the Cuban exile community, we grew up in the, in the projects of Liberty City, my mom worked at Burger King, she was a songwriter, she never made it. And, you know, I then I realized that I was more gay than I was by. And, you know, all of these things that I had to overcome, really affected the music that I wrote. You know, really, they were inter interlace, even though I was collaborating with people for
their records. There was a lot of me in those songs, too. Yeah,
it's amazing. I mean, that's a good part of the book. It's, I think, like, the first half is all about your story, which I find really fascinating. Even if you hadn't made it as a songwriter. I mean, your your story is just so fascinating. So different from my life have been on the West Coast and everything. So how do you deal with that with the success, like what happens when you you obviously had a lot of success, but what happens when you have a bad review or a song
doesn't become a hit? How do you deal with a disappointment?
Well, after you know, having written, you know, over 4000 songs, and, you know, maybe fourth of them got recorded, found a place somewhere, you know, an outlook track or something. And then of those ad became top 40. In those like, you know, 20 became top 20 law, you know, there is a lot of rejection. But you You always kind of like, I'm always on to
the next. And also when you write that song, and when you finally go through the thing, and then you think that it's going to be the next single and then all sudden you look at the records maybe on the record. I mean, it's so, you know, that's what we live with. The rejection is Yep, that you have to know that that's part of it. It can't stop you. It's like, okay, well, I'll find a movie to put that in. I'll find some buddy else to
sting it all. You know, I'll find a way to step up with the body and you keep fighting on you fought you fell forwards. Right?
Well, one of the ones that was so fascinating. I mean, it's just comical the story you tell about, you're supposed to work with Michael Jackson, and you call him and I mean, that sounds like a bad sitcom. You said that he did like a different voice and pretended to be as assistant but you knew it was him? And he said, Yeah, come to the session. He's canceling.
Oh, Mr. Child. Mr. Jackson is very ill, very, very ill. You know, it's
like, well, could you have his people call my people and reschedule our appointment? It's like, I knew it was him. It's like, I mean, it's got one of the most distinctive voices of all time, right? Yeah.
How do you can't I mean, that's so bizarre. Why didn't just have someone else answer the It's so strange. And like, why did he hire you? And then flake? It's just bizarre. You
know, it. He was at that time when he had already lost Neverland, and he had moved to Dubai. And then he had moved back to New York. And he was trying to make that epic album where he's like, a big statue or something. I do remember that.
Yeah. I mean, he just like addict, like
a dictator or something like that. I mean, and he had his kids with them. And he had rented a house, you know, townhouse off of Fifth Avenue, near the PR hotel, just around the corner. And it was just, it was he was not in a good place. You know, and I think he was just, he seemed way more interested in Ricky Martin than me. Like, where does Ricky go on vacation? what music does he listen to? How is it that he was
in Menudo? And this and that, it was like, he was interviewing me, like a journalist, interviewing Ricky Martin himself, you know, like, wanted to know all the secrets. And I thought, Oh, well, does he is he attracted to him? But then I later found out that he was a scholar of fame. You know, he made sure that he He was best friends with, you know, Elizabeth Taylor and Brooke Shields and Katharine Hepburn. And, you know, was trying really hard to become friends with
Princess Diana. And trying to you know, he loved fame and he wanted to know how people made it. And how they stayed famous. He was obsessed with it. I mean, he married, you know, into, you know, he married Lisa Presley. Elvis Presley's daughter. Yeah, crazy. So, he was obsessed with it. And I think that, you know, is way more about that, trying to collect unraveled the secret of what made Ricky Martin tick.
That's interesting, but I mean, you've had so many runnings yourself. There's a picture of you in the book that it's just it fascinated me. It's you with Cher, Steven Tyler and Jon Bon Jovi. What, tell me about that picture. Like I'm like, What are you guys the four of you talking about? What was the chemistry like? That's it that was?
I was at the wax museum. I just put some statues together. Really what it was no, oh, we were backstage at Meadowlands. It was an Aerosmith Guns and Roses concert. I think it was Guns and Roses. And Steven, we still even was filled like backstage. Maybe Guns and Roses was first and they we they are it was like one of those where they always switch who's first and all that. And we were backstage and John was there and share showed up. And because I had worked with all of them. It
just like came together. And you know, share grabbed me by the hand instead of what was take a picture and John come over here. And and you know, it's even gonna nuzzled into the picture. It was like, you know? Wow. Like, who has a picture like that?
I know. That's amazing. That's like an amazing picture. That's pretty crazy. You must have a lot of those moments where you're just like, like me, obviously the talking about the book, The Barbra Streisand meeting her and all that it was like a dream come true.
I know, I've, I've been so lucky in my life that, you know, you have to have luck to you know, it's not just Johnson books. Both is what you
talk about in the book about how it's, your mom inspired you? She had the same hustle? She
did. But I think on top of all, there's been so many coincidences, and so many things that are so unlikely to happen, that it's, it's, there's luck involved?
Well, there's a thing to that synchronicity with what you talk about, this is a really fascinating part of the book, where you go to this was at a psychic or healer or something, and you pick out this rock and it says joy, and then you meet a woman named Joy. I mean, that's kind of like mind blowing, in my opinion.
Exactly. And then then the, the egg donor that we picked out of the middle of the pile, you know, said joy on it. So and that was sort of like, like, incognito name. That wasn't even her name. And so it was sort of like, that was confirmation that she was the one and of course, you know, we went through the whole pile, but this one, and it was an actor. She was in LA, she was 22 years old. She was struggling to make ends meet and also pay for acting. And that touched my
husband was an actor, also. And, and she was so beautiful. She looked a lot like my mom and kind of Curtis in a way. And, you know, she she gave us the most beautiful children. Yeah.
And there's a movie about that. And watch you I heard you talk about there's something on Amazon. It's the documentary of this. Yeah. It's
called to TWL, the story of Roman and Nero and why Yarrow? Nero's named Dr. Lauren Nero. And, you know, who was one of my main, you know, idols and inspirations, and towards the end of her life, we make friends. And so you know, he's always like, what, why did you name me after a lesbian folk singer? And I said, Because Dylan was taken.
Yeah, well, all these people that you've had on your bucket list to work with, is there anybody that you haven't worked with? I'm surprised because like Lady Gaga is one that I'm like, Oh, I'd love to see what YouTube could come up with together.
Yeah, I mean, Lady Gaga, Adele. Troye Sivan. I mean, Jesus is is here Is New Song one of your girls? I mean, it's just the production on it in the video. Have you seen this? No would? It? Troye Sivan, tr o YEC von SIV A N? Okay. Um, he wrote the song with his producer, and it's kind of part of the Max Martin theme. And he is in the video, and you just have to watch it. I mean, it's so spectacular in the song itself, and what it's saying and everything. I mean, it just blew
me away. I just like, you know, Billy Eilish with her, you know, what was I made for? Oh, my God. I was so jealous when I heard that song. You know, so, I mean, there are people, you know, that I'd love to work with. But they somehow maybe they don't need me, you know, because maybe, you know, like, they do what I do. Like, I always wanted to work with Madonna. But she didn't need me because she's a real lyricist. He comes up with all
her concepts. He writes all her melodies, and she works with, you know, program or producers that come up with great tracks. And that's how she makes her music. And, you know, she didn't need me. So I'm personally that comes in with concepts and, you know, envisioning, you know, like, things like that. And when people have their own vision, they really don't need me.
But it doesn't, it wouldn't hurt to have you there as a producer. I
think I think it wouldn't hurt. But I can I don't have to feel badly that I don't get into those rooms. Because that's, that's sort of my chair. You know? Well,
yeah. Like explain that. To my audience. The thing we're talking about this in the book with dude looks like a lady. There's like three different recollections of the you said, Steven Tyler and Joe Perry, his recollection is wrong, because they said like, oh, the sun was already written, and he just changed two words. Yeah, that's
what Stephen said. And then Joe said the opposite. He said, Well, Desmond came up with dude looks like a lady, which I didn't. Stephen did. And then I finally got it. Correct. And, and also my collaborator, he had co written Joe's autobiography. So he had been part of that wrong story also. So I set the record straight, which was that, you know, I walked in, Joe was working on this Backward Loop. And it was going like data data. And then Stephen, you know, brought me up. And he said, What
do you think of this? You know, I saw I said one word, I just had walked through the door, they had never met me before. It wasn't Hey, this is nothing. This What do you think of this? And he started singing crews. And for the late is, you know, got that a cruise info, the latest and and they said, What do you do? And then they stopped. They said, What do you think about that? I said, I think that's really bad. And then just like, you know, kind
of poker face. And then I said, I don't think Van Halen would put that on the beside of their worst record. Thinking I could get them to laugh, but you know, Joe, like, crossed his arms, and it's like, his head was like, way back, but he's looking at me, you know, with his lip rise, you know, just like looking at me. And he goes, and so then Stephen, you know, being more people pleaser, said, Well, originally, I was thinking dude looks like a lady. I said, What do looks like a lady. I said,
That's a hit title. Let's write that song. And so I said, How did you come up with that? And you said, Well, I had, you know, everything boils back to Vince Neil, right? We had gone into a bar on the shore, and us with the guys, you know, the crew. And there was, you know, empty bar except for this, you know, vision of loveliness on at the end with a giant platinum mullet and black nails and porcelain skin and jewelry and curvy
figure. And so, you know, suddenly she turns around, and it's Vince Neil of Motley Crue. And so then Steven said, Oh, that dude looks like a lady. Dude. Looks like a lady dude looks like a lady. And so he loves the alliteration. And so, um, you know, but then I guess when, you know, he brought that, you know, everyone said, Well, what does that mean, you know, and then then Joe said, well, we don't want to insult the gay community. And, you know, I said, I'm gay, not insulted.
Let's write this. And so, you know, I pulled them into the store the story cruise into a bar on the shore, her picture grace, the grime on the door that Steven came up with the next line that makes absolutely no sense which is If she was a long lost love at first bite,
it was done instead of that, because I know you said that, you know, the bone.
No way It didn't make sense. It's like, if he's just discovering that, that she was a he, then how would he? How would it be a surprise? He just like how that sounded. It was a long day off love all those alliteration at birth bite.
It's like change it to what should it? No, I
thought it was like, I put my money down on the stage. And he thought that was stupid. You know, like, because it was a strict joint. So I threw I threw my money down on the stage. You know, and you know, thinking of, you know, that shear song gypsies, tramps and thieves, you know, you know, and all the men would come around, throw the money down, right, you know, so that was the imagery I had in my in my mind.
And so then, you know, dude looks like Lady and then the second verse goes, never judge a book by its cover, or who you're gonna love by your lover. Know all that alliteration, right? But think about how advanced that concept was. Usually in a song like that the guy runs the hell away. You know, when she pulls out her gun tries to blow him away. Right? Then you think get me out of here. Right? But no, he sings my funky lady. I like it like a like a lambda.
And he stays. It he stays because he liked what he saw. And that's why I want you to see this Troye Sivan. Video. It's like, you're gonna freak. It's so good. One of your girls that that's what it's called.
Was that in the JoJo thing? I got it. I got some homework to do.
Oh my god, you know, anyway, so that how long ago was dude looks like a lady that was 87 Yeah, I think so. 87. And how many years since then to now? Like 30 something? Yeah. More. Right. I
mean, plus 2320 36 Okay,
so now it's like, you know, trans, this trans that it's all you know, everybody's all in whipped up into a tizzy about, you know, non binary, you know, people, you know, are kind of like, not wanting to be pinned down to one gender. And it's like, we were there, folks. We were there. And so, you know, they use it and Mrs. Doubtfire and you know, during the road dance. So, you know, it's like, every little kid in the world knows that song. Yeah, I have a
funny story. Um, this worker that was working on our house, you know, comes in he's goes, you wrote that song. But Aerosmith. Called do a naked lady. I said, Yeah. I didn't want to break his spell. You know.
I think when I was a kid, I think I thought it was like, do me like a lady or something. Like I didn't know what it meant, because I was so little. I don't even think I saw it in print. So. But it sounds good. Either way, either way.
So then I was recording Steven on a song called Red White and you that had been written by one of my writers, Levi Harmon. And you know, before he did this session, I called them into, you know, my part of the office and I said, Look, I want you to sit down. And I want to tell you the story of the writing of dude looks like a lady. And so I told him exactly what I told you. And he just looked off in the distance and he and he said, I think I like your story better. He totally made it up. Like he
tried to diminish me. And all basically said, I had a mustache. First of all, I've never had a mustache on its own, not even in the 70s Porn era, that I support a mustache,
like, during the book shows that I've
never been a TED lasso. Okay. And it makes it sound like I'm like Juan Valdez. You know, like, with the Bhandup handlebar mustache. And, you know, so tried to diminish my contribution. Like, that song would not be without me. And I also wrote more than just one word. I dragged them into that story. And I was coming up with, you know, never judge a book by its cover and all that kind of stuff,
right and obviously, has devalued you because it kept having you back and you wrote, you know, Angel and what takes and I mean that's they didn't they say that was their best song ever wrote at that point? Yeah,
I think so. I don't know. But then you know, after you know, we the last songs we wrote together were totally my soul and flesh. And Ain't that a bitch? They were on nine lives I think. And that was oh, and then they they cut into one called last last goodbye. I think. I think that that was something that we had started before a long time ago that it was like a stillborn then they kind of brought it back. Yeah,
that's crazy. They tried to cut you out or not they sorry, not Aerosmith. But like their management or somebody tried to cut you out. And then Steven Tyler was like, No, he co wrote these like, we're putting his given credit.
Yeah. No, no, it wasn't quite that it was. It was another song. Ah, you know, but with another band that that happened with but Oh, was it?
Yeah, yeah. There's so there was a few things like that in the book. Like the story with meatloaf was was crazy like that. I mean, the sound is like it was held to work with him. No pun intended. I don't know. Oh, three, that was a crazy part of the book.
Yeah, very sad. Um, you know, and, I mean, he was very rough on me. But I actually had a lot of affection for him at the same time. And felt felt sorry for him. You know, he's seemed so trapped, you know, inside his persona. He couldn't just be, you know,
normal. No, it was like, in maybe in professional settings, he came in like, he was like, you know, King Kong busting out of out of out of prison or something, you know, it was just like, I remember once, he was like, kicking everything down the baffle the mic stand everything. And because he was frustrated with himself, that he couldn't, you know, get it right, you know, that kind of like very over the top. You know, grand craziness, and took
nine months. And bad health three is actually a masterpiece, it cost over $2 million to make one of the most expensive records of all time. And right now, you can't get it on Spotify. In the United States. He took it down, but he didn't know on the global right, so you can get it everywhere else in the world. And you know, it, the shame of it is that, you know, they made me record seven Jim Steinman songs that had been on other things, like, it's all
coming back to me now. And behind the scenes, because they were in a lawsuit together. Behind the scenes, I was playing Jim, the songs, you know, the, the rough mixes and everything. I wanted to get his blessing and he he loved everything. But I never got to tell meatloaf about that, you know, that I, you know, I made sure that Jim loved it. And so the fans are missing out on something that was blessed by Jim Steinman. That were his songs. And it was
meatloaf singing it. And, you know, bad out of health three did exist, it really exists. And then they made a record together. It was the last thing they did together. And to me, that's the coda of the trilogy, the last record that they made. And, you know, the, you know, he, you know, that he passed away, you know, and Jim first, you know, passed away and then meet followed him, you know, and, you know, that was like, truly the most remarkable duo ever, you know, the two of them.
So, because, you know, I was such a fan from the beginning, just to get the opportunity to produce the best out of health three was the biggest thing in my life, you know, and everybody told me, Don't do it. Everybody, everybody I work with said don't do it. He's gonna destroy you. Don't do it. Why are you doing it? Don't do it. But I was so stubborn. I went through with it. And he, you know, in the end, he stiffed me on my back end $65,000. And there was, you know, wasn't worth trying to sue
for it. And he didn't put my name on the back of the cover, which was in my contract. And my name was teeny teeny tiny. And then they made it seem you know, if you open the cover, dedicated to Jim Steinman in big letters, with a beautiful thing to Jim, who he was in a $30 million lawsuit with praise over over the brand name bat out of hell, because Jim wanted to make a musical called data to hell. And that and meatloaf didn't want it. He says, No, those are the names of my albums. That yeah,
but I wrote those words. You know, it's and those are my songs that I've sold the road. I want to put them all in a musical. And that went, I don't know if it ever really got to court, but it was protracted cost millions of dollars to litigate. And eventually, I guess they settled, but that was after about at a health three was out. Yeah, it's kind
of nice that you don't have to deal with that. I mean, you obviously you've worked with Diane Warren and you've, you've worked with some of the same people over and over, but you don't have like someone that you're partners with necessarily you just go from free project a free project. Yeah,
I mean, I, I, I love it. You know, I love that every situation has a different dynamic. And we have different chemistry. You know, when I write with Jon Bon Jovi, and Richie Sambora, there's a you know, we actually wrote this song called Blood on blood, which was about three best friends. And you know, to me, that was about us. And maybe not to them, but to me, it was about our, our trio. Well, yeah. With Steven and Joe, you know, writing with Alice Cooper,
writing trash. I mean, that was great education for me about writing for a character. And you know, what that character could sing what they can't sing, and also the morality of it. You know, always, you know, the bad boy gets punished. Yeah,
well, you said, Bon Jovi I was gonna ask you about these days. Do you remember that the writing sessions for that album because I feel like that was kind of an underrated album. I know, it came out during that grunge time, but it did kind of, well, I really liked the song something for the pain. I thought that was such a catchy song.
I know we wrote great songs, but really MTV just not snubbed all of those bands that was like, it went from one decade to another and there was like, you know, Smells Like Teen Spirit was the was the was a thing. And they, you know, it everything about those two periods. It's so so opposite.
You know, these virtuosos of guitar, you know, got traded out for guys that were art students that could play three chords that had hair in their face that looked down, where, you know, the bands I was working with, they had, you know, puffed up chests, you know, looking up at the last row, and these guys had caved in chests, they're looking down the whole time, it was just like a complete even physical posture. You know, the band's before had tight jeans, you
know, with hot butts. And then these guys were like, baggy old, you couldn't even see their bodies, you know, this work boots and, and flannel shirts, and, you know, dreamy hair on their face. I mean, and they sang real kind of almost suicidal sounding songs about feeling like they were outcasts and losers. And all this kind of stuff where the previous generation was, like, about being winners about hope. And, you know, we'll make it I swear, you know, it was complete,
complete opposite. And I'm not sure why that happens. But the pendulum does swing. Like, right now we're going through a renaissance of all the music, of the 80s of the music that I was really involved with. So my performance rights royalties have like, tripled, quadrupled. Because it's been like, out of nowhere, all of a sudden, it's like, what, these checks are going up.
I love that. I love that. That's my favorite era. Like it's interesting as the 80s was such a party era drugs and booze and all that but like a lot of the artists you worked with had gotten sober by the time like Alice Cooper and Aerosmith and stuff, but were there artists that you worked with that were that was an issue because they don't talk about that much in the book either with yourself or with artists that you worked with where drugs or booze got in the way of things
you know, really what I because I didn't partake in any of that, because I was more on the spiritual tip, whatever meditation and yoga and all that and they were all like in their 12 Step programs and all that they were really trying to pull it together and they did and look at the kind of industry that they created by you know, getting help with drugs and everything.
But what about you worked with Lindsay Lohan? Was she sober when you recorded with her?
Yeah. Wait, did I work with Lindsay Lohan? I
song I live for the day I don't know, it's on Wikipedia. It could be wrong.
I live for the day. Or
maybe she
covered she covered it, but I learned to work with her. You know, I, you know, the song went out there, whatever. But I didn't know any I didn't know her or any of that. But you know, there were other people that, you know, did get in trouble with these things, and some of them, you know, didn't really survive it.
That's the thing. Yeah. I hate
you know, whether whether it was actually dying or just being burnt out and just going away.
Right. What about you worked with you to the song of Sebastian Bach. I'm a big fan of that era. Again, Sebastian Bach was one of my favorites growing up. What was it like working with him? Because he's kind of a character.
He sure is. I mean, I was I was promoting my, my album discipline. And I had gone to Toronto, I think he's Canadian. And he was on the radio when I was on my way into the radio station. So he was the interview before me. And he goes on there and he goes, you know, that Bon Jovi, you know, this and that like totally slagging
Bon Jovi. When, you know, first of all, I think, you know, John had gone to high school with Snake, you know, it was like, John gave them the, the, the, paid for their, their equipment, put them on the map, put them as the opening act, as it was a
loyalty thing. And for this brat, you know, to start slagging Bon Jovi, I was like, get there fast, you know, like, I'm gonna kick that guy's ass, you know, and by the time, you know, I walked out of like, the elevator, and he had walked in, in the other aisle, elevator, I wasn't able to catch him because I had to go on. But you know, I did like him, you know, for being such a brat. And so, you know, also, I wasn't happy that he wore that T shirt that said, AIDS kills fags.
That's right. Yeah. You know?
Yeah, talk about, you know, it's just being a brat. I don't even think that he put two two together. But then, you know, many years later, he came to Nashville to write with me. And we wrote a song. I think he changed the title of it, but it was called the devil's day job. Whoo. That's a cool title.
Yeah, I think because he I think, on his record, he called it falling into you.
That has no no texture, or, or color or visuals. The devil is deja vu. Isn't that sounds way cooler? sounds it sounds like a movie title. Right? Some matrix something. Right?
Somebody feel that title? That's a great title. Yeah,
maybe I should rewrite that title with somebody else. But he was telling me pretty wild stories about his time, you know, in I think he was trying to prove that he wasn't homophobic, you know, because he went on Broadway and Jacqueline high. Right. And so he was telling me some wild, you know, stories, that I don't know if they were real or not. But he was telling me some wild stories,
like with, like other like, what, why, what kind of stories? Can you tell just
like the stuff that was going on, you know, behind the scenes between the actors and the dancers and the this and that, you know, was he involved? I am just telling you that he was telling me stories. I'm not saying that he partook in the stories he was telling, but they were pretty, you know, like, you know, they're pretty strong. And, you know, he was really very, very colorful. And I actually enjoyed my, my writing session with him. And he's very funny.
That's, that's awesome. I know, you gotta get going. I do have one last question. Because I feel like this is a very big issue. I think I've only heard you talk about a little bit. Ai. This AI scares the shit out of me. Does this scare you with AI writing songs? Or what do you think of that? Okay,
well, first of all, you know, that I'm on the board of ASCAP. And, you know, we're very concerned about it and have had a lot of meetings about it and you know, like, almost like, it was almost like being in a course right about it. And we went to Washington bout a month and a half ago and we walked the halls and we're trying to explain it to people that don't barely can turn on their phone, you know, like
these people. Don't All right, they don't understand how music and technology and all of that mixes together. But this is what what what, you know, we came to is that, you know, they, they, these companies came in and they went, they scraped all of Spotify, all of you to any source of music, they put it into the jumble of what they are training on, called training. And so, the thing is that, they're saying, Okay, well, it's
all fair use. Well, but it isn't because they're charging subscription to their services. So, I mean, I heard about a deal that went by the, they sold, Somebody sold their company for $80 billion dollars, you know, to private equity, you know, that is doing this, all this AI stuff. And it's like, okay, really how they're going to make
the money back. And so I'm, you know, the thing is, is that these are the essentials that we need, we need first of all consent to use our material are, you know, it's there, there's a thing called copyright. That exists. And these things fall under copyright, you know, infringement. Right? They took our stuff. They took our jobs, right? They took our stuff, and then No, cuz without consent, then there's no credit. And then
there's no compensation. So there's three big C's no no's, because we should be and what we don't want is for some politicians to come in and say, Okay, let's create a compulsory rate. Okay, you guys, you can use anything you want. And, you know, just pay into a fund and we'll just distributed amongst all the songwriters. Like, no, we want, you know, willing buyer willing seller. It's the basis of capitalism. You know, not all songs are worth saying, I know, not all of my songs are worth
the same. Right. So if you're going to use one of my moneymakers, I want credit for it. I want consent to say, yeah, you can use it, like people are asking you to interpolate my songs into their songs. Sometimes I allow it, sometimes I don't. You know, because I don't want to wash out my my original creation, the value that they
put in, like living on a prayer, and dude looks like a lady and all these songs and put it into a computer and then wrote a song based on that. You want to have the ability to say, yes, you can do that, or no, you can't.
And then let's say let's say I say, yeah, you can. I want credit. Yeah, and I want to be compensated. Because my overhead is high. You know, there are a lot of slow years, no hits. But still, I have to pay the people that work for me, and have to keep upgrading the Pro Tools. Because every so often, there's another upgrade, and you have to pay 1000s of dollars for that. You have to like every company, they have to keep upgrading their equipment and their facilities, and all of
that. But if you don't have a hit, and the money isn't coming in that you can't do that, then you have to fire people. Yeah,
one and also think about the people that don't have as many hits, as you know, maybe they only had one hit. And now people are making money off that's eating away at their lives, their livelihood,
and their and their kids, you know, being able to go to college and all of that. I mean, we are workers, you know, we're working people like anybody else, you know, yeah, there's superstars that would be fine. But that's not the working, you know, songwriters that I know. Like, we wait years between hits, and
hope for the best. And because we keep going and showing up and working, you know, writing every day, and hoping that we lock into the next magic situation with the right artists to sing it and all these things that have to, you know, be synced up synchronicity. Right, right. So so AI has the potential destroying all of this. And it's not fair because they're charging for it. And we don't get a piece of it. Yeah, it's not like This is fair use. Okay, fair use Mr. Fair use or misses
fair use, then make it free. If it's fair use, like, like, public domain. But guess what? Public domain, which I never have agreed with to begin with, you know, I think, you know, 95 years later, whatever you wrote, whatever you did belongs to the world, right? Read belongs to, you know, and your, your grandkids, great grandkids or whatever, don't can't get any money from it anymore. It's over. Now, I do the Vanderbilts give back their mansions after they live in it for 100 years. Well,
yeah. And didn't they change the laws? Because I think originally it wasn't like 20 or 30 years, were a character or something to be a public domain. And then Disney was the one that Disney kids went in and fought and change the law and made it whatever I think like you said, 100 years or something?
Well, it's, yeah, there's different things that reversion you know, copyright reversion is 37 years, like, let's say I sold a song, then I get it back. But it doesn't come back really. Globally, it only comes back in the US. And whoever bought it gets to keep it on a global basis. There's no, before it wasn't that way. It was 57 years. And when the song came back, and came back in its entirety. Right, go globally global, it's called global expression.
Okay, so you guys now know it with
not necessarily with ASCAP because that's about, you know, performance rights, and things like that. But, you know, there's all these different, you know, layers of people that are fighting for the rights, you know, copyright is, you know, holding, but AI demolishes all of that. Because it's like, well, you know, how close or how far is this thing you're going to make to my original song? And it's like retreat now that they've done it? How are they going to pull
out? Like I say, my hand up, you can't use any of mine stuff. It's like pulling a drop of water out of the ocean? How are you going to do that? So it's very scary. I mean, there was an article the other day and the New York Times it said a thing. hilarity will happen in like by 2031, which means that AI will have developed enough that it can be independent of our control.
Oh, God, that scares me.
It's called the singularity. And so it's more than that. Because, yeah, we can make as many as many rules as we want in our country. But what about the global expression? What about global trade agreements that are in line that, you know, where it all? It's one agree, you know, copyright? That, that that is a big part of what we're going to fight for, with this AI? And, you know, we need the representatives of, of in Congress, it can't be political,
you know, like that? Oh, well, you know, the Democrats think one thing the Republican think another No, this is about capitalism. In
our democracy partisan issue, yeah, I think I don't think it's
got because when we pass the music Modernization Act that passed 100% in both houses, and then we were able to you, but we bought like dog, and everybody had gets agree, and then we were able to lift, you know, it's, it's not perfect, and it's not what it's really worth, but we were able to lift our rates a little bit higher, you know, and everybody worked very hard, you know, on that.
And, but now this, this is a whole new thing, only thing you know, that, that and it's on every level, I mean, design, artwork, photography, using people's photographs and collaging them into some you know, surreal scape that you think is your art that then you sell, but don't compensate the original photographer. A good point. And you know, the actors now I think they they work something out with the studios that they can't just use their faces and their voices to
create new,
we're gonna just use AI with these actors and then basically make actors irrelevant is kind of scary. Yeah, it's coming. Yeah, it's clear we get the laws. Change them all sorted out. And I'm glad.
Yeah, I'm out there. And, you know, I walked the halls with passuk. And Paul, you know, that wrote the great showman and Dr. Ben Hansen. And also Madison love one of the great new independent songwriters, it's writing on all these, you know, fantastic dual Libras. You know, thongs and all these things, and she's fantastic. And we were there,
you know, young and old. We were like, trying to get the message through that, that these people who we voted into office have to represent us and protect our rights and protect our livelihoods.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for doing this. Is there anything else you want to promote here at the end? Obviously, the book is out now people should get it. Like I said, I'd love to read Yes. Amazing.
Follow me at Desmond dot child on Instagram. And all the news that's fit to print is they're very aggressive on it. And I love it. And I have a new skincare line that my friends created for me got Vida Loca, skin line.com and we're just doing a soft launch now. So it's, it's fun, you know, because I always love lotions and potions. And I always would sneak in and use my mom's creams and smell them and all that kind of stuff. So I just love it. And I'm working on my musical Guba
liberty, as well. That's, you know, so lots of stuff coming out of the Desmond Child, you know, mega machine. Yeah.
I look forward to the documentary and also these the music that you're working on. Now. That sounds really interesting. Yes, yes. Thank you so much. All right. So Chuck,
thank you so much for having me on your show.
That was a blast. Come back anytime. Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for taking the time to listen to the full podcast episode. Please help support our guests by following them on social media and purchasing their products, whether it be a book, album, film, or other thing. And if you have a few extra dollars, please consider donating it to their favorite charity. If you want to support the show, you can like share and comment on this episode on
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