Okay, my guest today is author and Navy Captain Brett Crozier. And you may remember him from big news story in April of 2020, when he had a tough decision to make, and he had to get his sailors hotel rooms, I don't think he followed right protocol or whatever, but it caused a stir. And but also a lot of people praised his decision. So whether you agree or disagree with that decision, you can check out his book and learn more how he came to make
that decision. And the book shows basically his whole philosophy on life. And we're going to touch on some of those principles in this interview coming right up. Yeah, that's the cool thing about podcasts have a little bit more freedom a little bit more time you really get into? So
yeah, they're they're they're generally better conversations. And if you do it right, and you've been doing this for a while, it's they're just good conversations. And I think that's what connects with the wider audience right there. They feel like they're in the living room or at the bar with us is the goal.
Yeah. It's when I did enter your name into YouTube this morning. I was looking, I was like, it's gotta be a few interviews that he did or something. I couldn't find anything. But I did see, you know, Jack Carr. He was on Rogen. And they were talking about you. Did you see that clip?
I did not see that. No, I should look that up. Yeah,
he was praising you. And he was saying something doesn't sit right with this. This whole thing? I think it was before all the details came out. But yeah, he was he had your back, which I was like, okay, cool. It seems like that was kind of the general consensus. After everything went down, is it most people supported you?
Yeah, I think I had a tremendous amount of support. I mean, there were naysayers as there always are. But But I was in a unique position, I was still in the military, still active duty and, and wasn't in a good place to want to speak out publicly for against everything that took place I just wasn't, when you're active duty military, you do what you got to do. And then you either sit down, shut up, or, you know, you wait till you get
out. And I hope you know, the real thing here is my book coming out now that I'm retired, or I retired a year ago is, is in no way like me just trying to tell my side of the story. It's, it's much more than that. And it's really maybe to explain to people why I made the decision I did, whether they agree with it or not, it just kind of gives them some background on who I
am. And, and really, hopefully a way to share a lot of the stories and, and, and pay tribute to all the amazing people I got to serve with over my 30 years. So
exactly, I think your book does a good job of that it kind of gives a background is to basically your whole life philosophy, your experiences and why you think the way that you think and why you feel the way you feel. And so the first chapter never turned down espresso. This is a really interesting concept that kind of is goes throughout the book is just finding common ground, right? Like you're talking about watch watching the nutty professor with these
people from Pakistan. And I had, how do we do that today in America? Because I feel like that's something that is kind of lacking. I mean, although like, I feel like that's what we used to do. We used to go to concerts or movies or sporting events, and we're able to bond with people from different backgrounds. And now it just feels like people are so locked into their tribes like even doing that as people are skeptical of one another.
Yeah, no, I agree. I mean, I think how we talk to one another matters and how really, more importantly, how you listen to one another. You know, we all have different backgrounds and different experiences. And, and I mean, I in the military, in a leadership position, I like to talk to people with the goal of finding that middle ground or finding
that commonality. Because as a leader, what you're trying to do are trying to motivate people, right, you're trying to get them inspired to do work that can be hard and arduous and combat could be deadly. And they're not just going to do it because you tell them to do it. Ideally, they're going to do it and do it well, because you've inspired
them. And I think if you really want to inspire somebody, whether you're in the military or business or the nonprofit world, or just raising kids, I mean, need to find a common ground, so you can relate to them. So I think I, you know, I think we have a lot of work, you know, a lot of work as a country as a nation to figure this out. Because we're, we're not always headed the right direction, as we know, but I think it starts with learn how to listen. And, and we have to, I think a lot is
based on fear. I mean, we, you know, I think when you're scared when you're worried about losing something, when you're worried about somebody else, you know, getting a leg up on you, therefore, you lose this whole zero sum game mentality. That is a difficult way to approach life. If you assume like if you and I assume that, for us to be successful, only one of us can be successful. Therefore if you're successful, then that means that I'm not that means I lose, or what have you approach
it differently. What if you're successful, and I can be successful and we can kind of leverage that and we might have different backgrounds, but together, you know, it's not just one or zero, it's one plus one equals two. And that's, that's a concept I think, in today's environment we forget and we forget how being part of that larger team actually makes you stronger, and we tend to do Go back to our tribes and our camps and we're fearful of the other side getting a leg up, and
therefore I'm going to lose. And that's just, that's just a, that's just a way to approach a fearful way to approach life, in my opinion. And if you're scared, and then that's why you're going to make those kinds of decisions, because you're scared and fearful that you're gonna lose. Well, I don't know, be confident, understand your strengths, understand that your strengths might be actually built to help other people, and their strengths actually might
be able to help you. But But that's quite a large
philosophical discussion. And I do talk about that in the book, because I think that's what I learned along the way was, you know, I try to tell the stories in the book through the people, I met the people, not just in the military in the Navy, but also know the guys from Pakistan that that I related to, because we're able to show the night professor on a small ship cargo ship in the middle of the Persian Gulf at the time, and we found that that was a common ground that allowed us to get
along and, and work well together, or share in tea with the Egyptian Colonel that I met, you know, in, in Betty swift Egypt during a big exercise. And that's just a way we related but, but it was beyond that it was every tour every head, it was every person I met, I try to, I guess I tried to live by that today. And I try to teach that to my boys today and the people I work with, and you know, we're stronger when we work together. And you have to get to know one another to do that.
Yeah, no, I agree. That's great advice. And that's one of the things I love. I mean, I've never traveled as much as you and been around the world, but just traveling, even within the state of the country, or going to Mexico and stuff like that, like just talking to different people from different like I remember going to New York, I was so excited. And one of the best things about going to New York was just talking to New Yorkers and talking about New York sports and, and typical
things to do in New York. I mean, that was just I can't imagine like Pakistan, that's totally different. ballgame there.
Yeah. Like, you know, I, we lived in Japan for a couple years, with my wife and kids and, and that culture can be intimidating. It's big. It's you know, Tokyo is like, really the largest city in the world. You know, we generally don't know how to read Kerrigan and some of the Japanese characters you see, but the reality is, you know, it's, we're all kind of the same. And it's pretty easy to relate to Japanese, even if you don't speak Japanese. Most of them actually speak pretty
good English. So that helps but but you know, everywhere we ever went, anywhere we ever traveled to, if you get over that initial hesitation about, hey, I don't know how to get to the store, how do I call a cat? You figure that stuff out? You really do? I think, what I think there's a lot of life lessons in that, I think too, you gain confidence in your ability to adapt to a new situation. And then three, you really get to understand that culture and the people and
you look at it differently. When you see it on the news. You think about it differently, because you've been there and you know, those people were, you know, you know, what's motivating them? So I think I think that's, I think travel is great. And there's one thing I could do more of in my life would be to travel more in places I hadn't ever been and to get to know the people and learn about them. And then all the cultures and stuff. So many more countries to go.
Yeah, the customs like I thought that was so cool. The part about I mean, that's the chapter the espresso thing is the coffee with the Italians. And it's like my brother was in Italy, in the army. So I asked him I was like, Is this is this true that they? So what is the thing they drink coffee at 9am and then 11am and 2pm. And they come and they don't sit and drink their coffee? They come in and they stand and they just do like a shot of espresso?
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, very true. And Naples or Napoli, Italy, that you know, where it's kind of the home of pizza and espresso. Yeah, it's very quick. It's almost like a smoke break that we think of in the old days when people used to smoke a lot. But they'd go and get their shot of espresso. And, and it's really good. Like, you know, people now I think if you try to go if someone hears this and goes to Starbucks and orders espresso, there's a good chance, it's not going to be as good as
it is in Naples. But they have perfected it over the years, right hundreds of years. And it's it's kind of sweet, it's super strong. Almost, you know, they sometimes they put sugar in it. But you know, you go down there and you hang out, get a shot of espresso, you talk a little bit and then you get back right back to work. You know, it's not like now or you might get a 16 ounce coffee from Starbucks and then sit around and drink it for half hour. I mean, they're quick and in and
out. But, but I do and I like even today actually use the Italian espresso machine that I bought over 10 years ago. And we use it every morning. So it's it's good. I although I do sit down when I drink it usually just because I'm at home, but sure.
Now that's really cool. That's a little stuff like that is so fascinating. So So you started out as a as a helicopter pilot, and then you made the transition to jets. And part of that was based on your I mean, who didn't love Top Gun but that was a big inspiration for partly and also by love this as it's like, you know you wanted to it's because more education and more training. And and you thought that was that's important to happiness and success in life. I mean, do you
agree with that? Do you think that's like important for everybody to kind of challenge themselves and do things out of their comfort zone to grow and improve?
Absolutely. I think that yeah, I think education is key whether it's formal education or it's just picking up a book and reading a book about something To learn, or like we talked about earlier talking to people and getting to learn about their culture, I think people should always find
ways to grow and learn. And, you know, in my career in the Navy, yeah, I was I was 16 When When Top Gun came out, so that left certainly a pretty formal impression in my young life and, and so when I went to the join the Navy and started started out in the naval aviation, I flew helicopters for about 10 years and loved it and loved everything about flying helicopters, it's like playing helicopters, like a pickup truck with you and a couple buddies and you can, you don't know what
you're gonna do, you might pick up some stuff, you might fly the mail around, you might pick a bit, you know, you might go look for a submarine, you might go look for enemy ships, you might just circle around the Hawaiian islands like I did, and check out certification early. So I
loved it. But given the opportunity later in my career, to go fly fighters, and particularly the FAA team, I knew that it was a chance, you know, one to kind of scratch the itch from when I was a young kid and saw Top Gun but to a way to really grow and, and learn more about the Navy. Because now I'm gonna learn about Tactical Aviation, I'm gonna learn about carrier operations, I'm gonna learn about how airplanes work.
And that whole other facet of naval aviation that would I knew would make me a better leader, it'd be fun to I mean, I knew it'd be fun and exciting. And that was certainly one of the draws. But I knew I would learn from that and be a better leader, because I'd know more now about how a broader part of the Navy worked. So I think it
is true in life. And I never shied away from that even later in my career after learn how to fly fighters for and do that for about 10 years, and I got the opportunity to go to Navy's Nuclear Power School, in Charleston. And so now very technical, it's like two year master's program, essentially, in nuclear engineering. And what you're learning is how to operate reactors reactors on, you know, that we have in submarines or reactors that we
have on aircraft carriers. And that's the requirement to be a XO deputy, or the commanding officer of the CEO of an aircraft carrier. So we got another chance to the Navy, was willing to invest in me to spend time training and growing. So I think I'll tell them my 30 year career, I spent, you know, over 10 years in a classroom or academic environment, which is pretty amazing. There's an organization that they invest that much in you but, but even the other 20 years, you're
learning all the time. And I think, even now that I'm out of the Navy, I'm finding ways to learn, I think, I think it's a great lesson for anybody you know, you know, it's the whole idea, you learn, like, you're gonna live forever, you know, what, why would you stop and rest on what you only know today? Why would you not try to
learn more? Whether that's, you know, in business, whether that's in your family, whether that's in some recreational activity, you know, all those are, I think, just great ways to live your life. And I think I always find it exciting to learn new things. Challenging, yes, right. You have to be confident that you're gonna have to do something you're not good at. And when you get older in life, you like being good at things.
So you have to be confident up there and maybe pursue something that you don't know anything about. But that's also fun. Because with that comes experience. With that comes confidence. And with that gives you I think, better perspective on how the world operates. So I'm big believer in that. Yeah. Well,
I mean, you'd flown the helicopters, but that's very different than flying a jet. So I mean, did you have any sort of like, have you had you done like, you must have at least been on rollercoasters and thought, okay, I can I can or do you try bungee jumping or some sort of like adrenaline thing that I can do this? Because I think there's some people that I probably myself, I don't know, that I could could be in a fighter jet like that, I would freak out.
Yeah, I mean, the Navy's got incredible, like the Air Force, and everybody else have an incredible training program. So you start in simulators, and you work your way up to actually in the cockpit on the runway and taken off. Helicopters are different, but also very similar, that, you know, once you're airborne, and, uh, you know, a couple 100 feet above the ground, they operate
the same way. I mean, the same mechanics of flight basically are working, you have instrumentation, you're flying, you know, different routes, you can fly in someone approaches in the weather. So when you're in a fight, or you're doing the same thing, it just happens faster, where it's really different, I mean, a helicopter, you have to be able to hover. So the hardest thing you learn in a helicopter, and it takes you like, you know, six or seven flights is how to
hover a helicopter. Now modern helicopters have a little bit better avionics, but we started out in the Navy on the time was it's an old jet Ranger, like the ones you see all the time for the old new shows and, and we spent a lot of time learning to hover, and I was determined, I thought for sure I'd figure it out like on my second flight, but it takes like six flights to figure out to actually build a hover, keep the helicopter in one place, you know, five to 10 feet above the ground and not
like swerving all over the place. So then when you jump in a fighter it's different right a fighter you know, you need a runway now right you need a runway or an aircraft carrier to be able to take off and land so whereas a helicopter can land in a parking lot can land on a beach, come on in the back of a small ship, which is challenging in its own way a fighter you
need that runway. So in some ways helicopters I always joke with like helicopters like being on a bird I mean, you can take off anywhere in land anywhere whereas a fighter you need that runway and and that means an aircraft carrier, you need the catapult to launch you and a couple 100 feet and you need the arresting gear on the back end of an aircraft carrier to land a fighter, you know, going 150 miles an hour or to zero and about 250 feet. So it happens pretty quickly. But it was, but
it was fun. I had some experience, I think in the back of smaller planes are flying the T 34, which is that was a small prop plane the Navy teaches you on but but when I went through the training for fighters and FA teams, I felt like I didn't, I didn't find I mean, there's challenging moments of it, because things happen fast. But I think my time as a helicopter pilot prepared me well for that.
And then I just had to learn how to do things faster and, and potentially about myself if I'm flying a single seat fighter, like an F 18.
So what's scary are flying the fighter jets or being in charge of a nuclear reactor on a ship, like those both are very daunting.
They're both different, right? I mean, when you're the, when you're in a fighter, there were moments where it's, you know, with by myself, and whether the enemies shoot naturally, or you're running low on gas, or you got to land at night, and heavy seas, on the back of an aircraft carrier, those are some moments where it can be pretty intimidating. And you're by
yourself. You have plenty people, they're talking to you radars, all that stuff, but, but you don't, it's YOU the machine and you have to, you know, overcome any fear, you might have to be able to do it successfully. Aircraft Carrier, you've got essentially a team of
5000 people. So you know, if there's ever a time you feel like someone's got your back, it's on an aircraft carrier, when you got 5000 people that are, you know, taking care of the reactors, taking care of the runway, warned about the fuel, the food, the engineering, the computer systems, all that
stuff. So, I don't see, I don't think an aircraft carrier was ever there were moments where you're like, you know, I hope this works out, like, let's hope that ship gets got in my way like they're supposed to, and you're maneuvering the carrier as best you can. Or you're, you know, you're blowing your whistle to try to get them out of your way. But for the most part, I felt like, you know, it's when you have that many people on the same team all trying to do the same thing.
There wasn't a lot of stuff that intimidated me. I mean, there's there was no nation that could stand toe to toe with us. With an aircraft carrier, you know, with all the airplanes and stuff you have. You know, there's there's things out there that I was concerned with, but I don't think I was intimidated by anything. And I just think it goes back to, you know, aircraft carriers are pretty big beasts, they've got a lot of weapons, they're built really well. And you got 5000 people there to
help you fight it. So I felt like if anything, I was more worried about other people being scared by us. And as they see us steaming around wherever we want it to go. Because that's the nature of you know, the law of the seas, you can kind of go where you need to go.
Yeah, so you're talking about things, being scared sometimes of things, but more they would be scared of you. Did you ever see like a UFO or anything like that as a fighter pilot or ship captain?
No, I never did. You know, I was on a I was on an aircraft carrier when there was some discussion about another flight that had taken off earlier that might have seen some stuff off the coast of Southern California. I never never got to see that or the radar. But But that will tell you they were convinced they solid. They were you know, these are guys that you know you go to you go to war whether you had
to. And they were pretty convinced what they saw did not make sense by the normal laws of physics that they you know, we've been trained on so seeing seeing their reaction, and even even now some of these guys are talking about it, but makes you wonder right, you have footage. There's footage of seen the footage now. Yeah. It's
like puzzling. You kind of go okay, is this? I mean, it could be some sort of fake thing. But it's definitely, if we don't answer it makes you wonder what?
Yeah, I'd like to just think they're on our side, somehow. I just don't know who runs them. But they're on our side. And certainly, if they're off the coast of Southern California, they know that the weather's good out here. And they want to hang out this side. So that that works in our favor, I think.
Well, yeah, that's kind of what so that kind of a good transition to Chapter Three here where he talks about just when in doubt, be kind. And I feel like that's another thing that's a good message to put in the book. Because I feel like that's another thing that goes back to our country being so divided. That's just like lacking, like, how do we get that message out to the rest of the country? To be kind of you there's always that thing of
like, nice guys finish last. So is it possible, it's possible to to sway too far the other way and be passive, right? You need to be assertive, but I also think like, there's too much aggression or passive aggressiveness, and not enough kindness.
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of talk about and that's true in the military and outside how the, you know, you've got to have discipline and you got to, you got to rule with an iron fist. I think I think discipline is important in anybody's life. I think, you know, I'm hard on myself to make sure I work out that I eat well, that I get enough sleep that you know, I'm, and I think that's fine. Everyone should be hard on themselves. But it doesn't mean you have to be hard on anyone
else. Like you should be somewhat compassionate towards others. And there's probably a famous philosopher that had that same quote, you know, be hard on yourself, be kind to others. And that's kind of my mantra is like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna work out as much as I can. I'm gonna stay in good shape. I'm gonna make sure you know I spend time with the family. I'm gonna make sure I do my job as well as I
can. But I'm gonna become with other Horses are trying to figure it out live and figure out what's important to them. And just because I don't see somebody else working out as hard as I do, I'm not going to judge them. Right? There's nothing gained by me judging anybody but myself, against my own standard. I, you know, I think as a leader, I mean, think about an aircraft carrier, when you're the CEO of an aircraft
carrier. Everybody knows who you are, everybody knows the authority that you have, everybody knows the responsibilities that you have. So it doesn't take much for you to, you know, to get someone to do what you want. And, and therefore, you don't have to do it with any kind of edge. You don't have to be mean about it. And I guess that's really was my, my point in that chapter was, you know, it's okay to be nice. Like, I've never regretted
being nice to somebody. I mean, yeah, I'm sure there's people that take advantage of that, I got it. But I just, you know, to be mean to somebody, when I don't understand their background, understand why they made the decisions. You know, it's, it's more an opportunity to have a conversation. But I always found that, you know, by Aaron, to the side of kindness, the whole golden rule, treat others how you want to be treated. That, that never, you know, I never regretted that.
And that's no matter whether I was in charge of myself, and an airplane or whether I was in charge of an aircraft carrier with 5000 people. And I think in the end, particularly the military, you know, why do people fight? Like, why do people go into combat? I mean, do they do it? Because they're, they have to do they do it because mom and apple pie? Well,
maybe a little bit. But I would argue, and you can ask, you know, all kinds of folks on this, people go into combat, people are willing to risk their lives for the people next to them. And for them, you know, the idea, they're part of a team and that, you know, that someone's going to have their
back. And so that means as a leader, you want to build a strong positive culture, where, you know, where they know that, hey, I'm gonna go fight for that guy, because he's gonna get my back, and he's gonna help me out. And that's a commodity that you have to build. That's, that's trust, you know, it's a
culture of trust. And I'd argue if you go around, and with the authority you have as if leadership is a leader, whether you're a CEO of a company, or a CEO of an aircraft care, and then on top of that, you're, you're mean and hard on people more than you should be, then in the end, you're not building that trust, and the end, they're gonna do their job only because
they have to. And if it comes down to combat, they're probably only gonna fight, you know, because they have to, and not because they feel like they're part of a larger team. So I think it comes down to how do you really inspire people, and I always found that not not being soft, not being passive, not giving everybody ice cream every day. That's not what that's not what it means to be nice. It means to understand that people have challenges, and you go out of your way to make their jobs
and their lives easier. And you can do it with a smile on your face. And you can sometimes give them benefit of the doubt. And I think in the end, it comes back and tuck in kind. And it helps that culture that we're kind of talking about. So I think you can't lead from a position of
fear. So if if you're leading passively if you're, if you're doing that, because you're fearful of how people are going to perceive you or you want to be so well liked, as a leader, that you're that that's what motivates you, that's not going to work. I mean, you have to have standards, you have to have goals, you have to have a common mission. You can you can lead with kindness from an assertive standpoint. And that's kind of a
fine distinction. But if you do, I think it's amazing what you can get from your crew, your company, your team. And I think that's that's kind of the important distinction. There's, you know, two last guys finished, the nice guys finish last. I think that's, it says, I hate to find that do strong leaders that happen to be also, you know, passionate and have
empathy. I guarantee they're not finishing last, I think those are the leaders that we've seen Excel and do well, and have a legacy that people want to follow and do well. And you know, those they they built companies that last decades, right? That's, that's the kind of niceness I'm talking about. That's what I need to be kind. That makes sense.
No, absolutely. I worked in the school. So I saw that in the schools with, with teaching styles, right? You'd see that if a teacher was too passive, the kids would just walk all over them, if they tried to rule too hard with an iron fist and the kids turned against them. So I'm assuming it's probably the same as the, you know, it's your if you're in your position, or any kind of leadership thing, you kind of have to earn their trust, but also their respect, right?
No, and that's, yeah, that's important. And again, it goes back to you've got to know your people, you've got to understand what motivates them and how to communicate with them. And you can't do that by hiding in your office. You can't do that by hiding on the bridge of a ship, you know, you have to get out and about and talk to people. And, you know, and that's I like that. I mean, that's, I, you know, I enjoy meeting new people and learning
new things about them. So for some people, it's harder, but I think as a leader, it's critical that you that you understand that that is an important part of what I think successful leadership is all about is knowing your people how to motivate them. So you can take care of when you need to. Yeah,
one another. In the other chapter for you talking about prioritizing. Explain this. You have this analogy that with the jar with the rocks and the pebbles in the sand, and like taking care of the big things first. Can you explain that?
Yeah, no, I learned that when I was a Young lieutenant at a boss that told me that but the idea being is, your day your life, whatever you got this, you got this jar that's, that defines the capacity of how much stuff you can get done. And then meanwhile, you got this bucket, and you've got all the things you hope to accomplish in life.
And you've got some big things like one big rock could be your family or one big rock and the, you know, being a good fighter pilot, you've got smaller things like, you know, like, I want to have a nice car, I want to, you know, make sure my car runs or I want to, you know, fix something I want to make sure I go on a vacation, you have all the little rocks, which are like answering emails, or, you know, watching Netflix or binging
Netflix. And, and I think it's important, whether you're that jar is defined in your work capacity, whether it's defined your life capacity, it's how you fill that jar up. Because everybody has, you know, has a limit, right? Everyone has a finite limit of, of what you can
get accomplished. So the goal is you if you, if you start with all the little rocks, right, if you start with all the little rocks, which could be binge watching TV, or answering emails excessively or always on your phone, what you're going to fill that jar up to a level with just small rocks on the bottom, this is true for me this the physics here workout as well. Then when you try to put the other rocks on top, there's not gonna be any room, you're gonna run out of
space in that jar. The idea being this big rocks now come in, and they're gonna rest on this bit of sand as it were the only way to do it and make it work. And you figure out what those big rocks are? And like, what are your What are your big priorities? Is your family.
Okay? Well, that's a big rock, but that in first in your jar is it is your health and well being Okay, put that rock in there is it your professional competence and whatever, you know, you know, your training, education, okay, well then put that in there. Then once you have your big rocks in place, then you worry about the smaller stuff, you go the medium size rocks, like, Okay, I want to take that weekend vacation to Vegas, he put that in there, and then saw
that. So then with the end of the day, what's your last thing is all these little pebbles, right? The sand, it's all the emails, it's all the, you know, it's the that I mean, whatever it might be in your life, things that are not that important i that if you didn't do them, it
wouldn't matter. Because now you got the big important rocks, and but if you do it in that order, now you can take that sand and you can pour it in there and you can fill it in, it's going to fill around the physical space around the bigger rocks as it were, and you can actually get all this stuff in the jar. But if you do it in any different order, that doesn't work. And I think that's true in life. Meaning that you have to decide what your priorities are, you know, you have to decide what's
important to you. And you're going to make those your priorities and make your decisions based on the idea that I'm going to worry about that. First. I'm not worried about the other things last. So let's take it take in the business world, like you know what I'm doing now, if I, if my only goal for the day is make sure I answer all the emails I get. Well, that's those are the little
rocks, right? Um, now I'm gonna not spend the time I need on worrying about my staff or worrying about the big projects or all my you know, I work in the nonprofit world now. So, community outreach, all those things are important big rocks, community outreach, or big events, or, you know, the employees morale. And if I don't focus on that first, you know, then the problem is I'm going to spend all day on a computer, answering emails, worrying about
things that are important. And at the end of the day, I won't get to what really matters. So I think good leaders in the business in the military, they get this intuitively, they kind of understand the importance of that. And they don't worry about, you know, sit in front a computer answering emails or making the big decisions or learning. They're focused on the big rocks. And I think it's, I think that's kind of what that whole analogy means. And it worked for me in my military
career. It worked for me, I think, because I was able to balance time with family, I was able to focus on my, you know, my career professionally, I was able to focus on the people I was taking care of. And I think if you do it well, by the end, you're you're gonna get to the end that whatever the end is, and your career and your life, you're going to feel like satisfied that you've probably balanced things accordingly.
Yeah, no, I love that, like he taught you give examples in the book about like how you gave, some of the sailors time asked for their child's graduation. And your point on that was like, you know, if you take care of people give them extra time off, then they're going to work harder when they come back. So it sounds like that work. The principle works for you. What do you think about using that principle, like having a four
day work week? Because I feel like that's something that I don't know why we don't do that. work weeks, it seems outdated. In my opinion, I think it'd be so much better. I would rather work 12 hour a day for four days a week than work five, eight, what do you think about that?
I do think I think companies need to explore that. I mean, not everybody can do it. And you know, I look at my own company. It's something we're talking about trying to do. It's not easy to do and manage, right, you have to figure out how you provide all the services, you have to do that without having to hire
extra staff. But I think if you figure it out, and the companies that I've studied that have done it well, that you're right, people tend to want to work if they're passionate for what they do, and they like the culture and the mission. They're going to work hard no matter what. And if you can ask them just to work four hard days, but the reward is going to be three days off. Then I guarantee that you're going to continue to work hard. I mean, they're gonna give you
their time. And we all know, in most cases, right, by the time you get home Friday after work, you're you're not seen, if you haven't put any thought into it, you're gonna roll through Saturday, get some stuff done on Sunday, you're gonna want to rest a little bit, and the next year you're back at work, we're three days gives you an option. That gives you some time, you know, I actually one of the things I like I explored when I was retiring was looking to work for the San Diego police
department here. And they worked a four day on three day off, it was pretty, pretty interesting. And they loved it. Because, you know, when I did some ride alongs and talk to the guys and I did not go on that path. I was more just curious and fascinated by what they do and the hard work they have to do. But they loved it because of like, you know, now I can actually work hard for four days. And it's hard, arduous work, as you can
imagine in any big city. But he's like, now I can actually take three days to travel somewhere, I can go to Barry, I go to Vegas, I go to Mexico and not feel like I'm just rushing in and out. And so. So I think companies should, you know, they should continue to explore that option. I think the companies that do and do it well will attract more more talent and people that understand that that lifework balance that we're always trying to talk about.
Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah, that's a good point, it's kind of a win win, you're gonna attract the better talent, if you and then going to be more successful. And then it's way it's a win win for the employees, because they're gonna, they're, I think, assume most people would love that. Way better than the five, eight hour days, I don't know, I haven't met anybody to work your day is pretty much shot anyway. So like, you're gonna go do
something after work. Like, at least for me, when I was working eight hours, I would just go home, I was done for the day. Yeah, cuz
you're all in for that that day, whether it's eight hours, 910, whatever it is, you're all in, and you're exhausted and, but haven't known yet, for three days on the, on some one side of that. I mean, without a doubt, it's not easy
to manage. And there's all kinds of state and federal laws you have to be aware of, but I know companies that are doing the research on and trying to incorporate that I you know, I guarantee they'll be successful, they're gonna you know, if they do it, right, but but we're, we are looking at it my own
company. And I think it's something that we can pull off the next year, we'd love to do that and, and give the time give folks a time they need to really enjoy life on the outside, it makes them better makes it better.
And that's the whole I mean, the title of your book is serve when you can and that's chapter seven. And you kind of talked about that balance, like I feel like for for me, I see people either working too hard or not enough. So how do you manage that balance? Because obviously, you must have worked very hard to get to where you are, I can't imagine the school schooling, you went through learning about nuclear reactors. I mean, that must have been very Yeah, exactly. I mean, but you did it.
And then now you're still valuing, you know, being able to take a break when you can. So how do you manage that balance? What's your advice for that?
Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I like to, I've, for me being physical, whether it's working out on the ship or hiking with a family or surfing, which is, you know, what I've been doing a lot of lately. I know that I work better as a result of that. So, you know, I, I want I like it. It's fun. It's enjoyable, particularly the weather's good and the surfs, good, and there's no nothing better than getting up early and doing that for a couple hours. And I got, I've got three sons.
So inevitably, I could always get one or two of them to go with me, we'd hang out together. So it's great. It was great family time as well. You know, could I do that seven days a week, and well, one, I'm not that good. So no one would pay me to do that. But, but I liked the balance. And I liked when I did that. It makes you I just again, it goes back to like the
four day workweek. I knew I worked better, I knew I could use that time with surfen to kind of recharge my batteries and kind of think, think some bigger thoughts think strategically, which I think is important for leaders. You know, so whether you know whether you ski do yoga, you go to church, you read, I think everybody needs time to think and for me, surfing is one of those things
where I can get on the water. I don't have a phone, I can't No one can text me, no one can call me there's no emails to answer. I'm just worrying about surf the lineup, you know, the currents, the weather, the wind, everything else that goes on out there. And I you know, and I knew it may be better at work, and it makes me better work.
Now, as a result of that, if I can go get a morning session, and before I go to work, which is some days are hard, but I know that I will actually work better the rest of the day, I'll just be in a better mood. I will, they will look at things differently. But you're right. You know, I think the question is, are people working too hard or not enough, it's probably a balance. I think people that are
motivated by what they do. And they're passionate about their mission, I think they're going to work, they're going to tend to want to work harder, right? Because they like what they do and they get recharged by that.
I think that if people are not or they work for bosses that are caustic or you know, have a toxic environment, well, then they're just going to punch the clock, and they're not going to do any more than you asked and they're going to leave, you know, five or four whenever their workday ends and you're not gonna get anything else out of them. And if they don't like the project, they're just going to slow roll because they're only doing it to get a paycheck.
So I see both sides. I've seen it you know, you see it in the Navy a little bit too but if you if you have the right culture, you know with the Right leaders in place and the right mission, that you can inspire people, then you find that right, that sweet spot right where they're gonna work hard, but it's fun, and they enjoy it and they're recharged by it. You know, I, I,
but I think that's the key. I think that's how you bridge that gap between working too hard, because you're just trying to make a lot of money or not working at all, because you don't like what you do. And I think people kind of have to ask themselves, if they're on one extreme or the other. Why is it? If you're working seven days a week, well, why is it a startup company? And you're working hard? Okay, well, then, yeah, that's probably that's probably makes sense. That's you're
you're all in. It's like, you're a founder, and you're, you're starting a company. But if you're not working at all, and you hate going to work, well, then, you know, Richard Branson, Ryan said, If you don't like what you do, then do something else, you know, or find a different way to do it. And I think that's true as well. And we're seeing a little bit of that, particularly post COVID, as people were exploring remote options and hybrid kind of work
options. I think people really trying to figure out how to achieve that balance so they can be passionate about what they do, and enjoy the work when they're doing it.
Yeah, I feel like that's something that's just really missing. In our country right now. I know for myself, like I was in education, and I had a lot of time off. But I was miserable if it didn't feel like it was enough, right. And now, yeah, I've been podcasting. I'm working harder than I've ever worked in my entire life. And I love it. It doesn't feel like I'm working at all. I mean, it's work, obviously. But it's sure I'm loving it. Am I setting my own schedule? I'm doing it on my
own. So it's like, but it's something that I'm really passionate about. I feel like people need to find that it's cool. You read you reference, like Ferris Bueller? In the book, which movie like how life is gonna move fast. And if you don't stop, you're gonna miss it. So explain that principle. Like in the rocking chair test? I've heard like Tony Robbins talks about that one as well.
Yeah, I think my wife taught me that one. But you know, throughout my career stuff was the idea of being at some point in your life, right at the, at the end, where we were happy to find the end. The idea is, you're on a, you're on a porch somewhere, you're on a rocking chair, you're talking to your spouse or your friend, and then you're talking about your life, you're looking backwards,
right? It's whenever you're no longer worried about what's coming, you're looking back, and you're reflecting on all the things you did or didn't do throughout your life. And, and so it's, it's a mindset of put yourself in the future. Look back now, where you are today, and a way to kind of decide, you know, kind of help you make those decisions today. So, you know, if you're making a decision about should I, I don't know, should I go to Vegas? And, you know, play craps all day?
Oh, well, okay, maybe that may be fun. But, you know, or is it money spent better? Should you go, you know, take your wife and go to Cancun and enjoy? Well, in the end, I mean, which one of those is going to get you more satisfaction in the long run? For me, it was, you know, more professional, right? It was when I was, you know, as a Navy helicopter pilot, I loved everything about it. But I had the opportunity to go fly
fighters. And there's, you know, you're just about five or six a year that are selected to do that. So with this opportunity, I remember asking my wife and I said, What do you think, you know, as it's a total career change, it's going to be challenging, and it's back to school. This is all pre 911. So we hadn't, you know, we didn't go into it, and then two decades of combat. I said, so, you know, I said, so I'm kind of, I said,
I think I want to do it. And she's like, there's no doubt I mean, when you're on that rocking chair and your future, and you look back, if you had said no, have you say no to that decision, he goes like, I guarantee you're gonna wish you had done it not not saying it's going to be perfect, not saying you're going to, that's going to lead to any, you know, more success or not in your life. But it's the opportunity and the experience to learn something new challenge yourself, and
you're going to grow from it. So the idea that your test is you just kind of it's a way to put your needs to mindset, put yourself in the future, look backwards on what you are doing or what you were thinking about doing. And how does that how does that impact you? So? So that's a rocking chair test.
That's a great one. Yeah, I love the try to teach up principle in my podcast. I love this thing, too. This isn't I didn't know this. But how the reactor engineers on those ships are trained to speak up every time they see or hear something that's even the slightest bit off base. Because of what's at stake. It says fascinating phenomena, especially with the personality typically within engineers very introverted. So there's, there's their trend to speak up. I'm like, that's an
interesting category. What's the word interesting just phenomenon because I feel like that's just lacking in America today. A lot of people are scared to speak up against things that they know are wrong, because they don't want to be chastised. But this is how you're training the nuclear reactor engineers. So talk about that principle. I just find that so fascinating. Yeah,
I mean, I think there's some organizations that you know, that encourage people to speak up, right? The idea is that, hey, if something's not right, speak up. I think that organizations do really well expect it, you know, and require that meaning that if you see something that's not right, or you hear something's not right, you have to speak up. It's not a it's not an optional, it's not a nice to it's not a hey, I'm just gonna leave a note or I'll throw
it in. So when you when the stakes are high enough as they are when you're talking about operating a reactor or you're talking about launching airplanes off a flight deck of a carrier. You don't have time for that kind of niceness. Don't worry about offending somebody, right? You just the the truth matters. And speaking up when something is wrong is extremely important. So it's ingrained more more than you can engineering program the Navy than I've seen anywhere else.
And so you do get some very young sailors, very technical engineering oriented that are trained, right from the start, if they hear something said incorrectly, rather than let it go and therefore condone a misunderstanding, they're told
they're told to speak up. So even if I was a captain, the ship and I was down there, and I make a comment, like, you know, I think the limiting pressure is, you know, 180 pounds per square inch, and I'm off, they're gonna, they're gonna call me up, they're gonna go, sir, that's incorrect. It's actually 150 pounds. And in your mind, you're like, you know, someone could say, well, doesn't
really matter. I mean, it's, there's, you're talking a limit that you will never get to anyways, I'm making these numbers up. But they're trained that no, it's that does that kind of precision and accuracy does matter in those kind of environments. And no one should be offended, just because someone's speaking truth or truth to power, even if I was the captain the ship and and they wouldn't hesitate, which I found remarkable, because it's
not true. In all walks of life, as we know, there's many things that you and I and everybody see or hear every day we that we're uncomfortable with, or we don't like and people like, I'm just not gonna worry about it. And I'm not saying, you know, this isn't a doc God ego tilt, that everyone know, right? That's, that's also not a good strategy.
But there's some things that are important enough that, you know, if you don't speak up, when things are incorrect, and I think in some ways, you're condoning that you're allowing that to happen. You know, I don't know, it was Edmund Burke, or somebody that famous quote, right, that, you know, that that evil will succeed, as long as there's people unwilling to speak up, or I'm taking liberty with the words, but, and I think
Reagan even recorded that. But you know, the idea is that, you know, the path to evil is paid by people not willing to speak
up truth. So it's very small, when he talks about on the technical side of things, you know, reactor space on a carrier, it's, you know, can seem like a small point, but it's extremely important to set that culture, I think, you know, I saw that good culture is on the ship, and good cultures and organization, not only, you know, encourage that, but they expect it, and they require it. And I think that we see now in society larger societal challenges is, you know, when's
the right time to speak up? You know, or, you know, is it worth it, and you have to, everyone has to kind of come to that to their own what they're comfortable with, but understand that by not speaking up, you in many ways could be condoning that kind of behavior, whatever that might be. And it's, you know, it's not everything's just black and white. But obviously, there are things that you know, you feel strong enough, you know, and your heart is wrong. And you just let it go. You look
the other way. Hopefully not? Well, exactly.
And that's, you know, that's how you got so much press for all this. And this is why the word inspired the book and everything. So people should get the book called serve when you can it comes out June 13 13. Yeah. 13. Okay, so that's a lot drop this episode as well. I mean, you gotta get going here. So I always end every episode promoting a charity or nonprofit. Is there something that you said, I think you said
you worked for nonprofits. I don't know if people can donate to that, or but I always like,
yeah, they can I work it was called veteran's village of San Diego. And we focus on veteran homelessness and veterans on the street that are struggling with drug abuse and substance abuse and mental health challenges. So we, you know, we have a pretty large facility, we help them kind of get back on their feet, kind of get them a job, and, you know, back out in the community, and, you know, as we know that there's a homeless challenge across the entire country for
various reasons. And it's not a it's not an easy thing to solve. But I think that it takes it takes a lot of people, right, takes time, money, political, and public will to do that. And I think, you know, that's everyone's focused on here in
San Diego. It's a challenge. And we're addressing that every day, my nonprofit veteran's village of San Diego, which I think is like VSD dotnet, you can find it online, I think, you know, our focus is the veterans, that if for one reason or the other have kind of fallen down on their luck and need a hand kind of getting out of that hole that they're in and we bring them in and help out. Kind of get them clean and get them stable and get them jobs and get them back
out there. And there's you know, we probably have about 3000 veterans and their families in the community every year doing stuff like that. So
I love it. I love that people should buy the book and I will put that link to donate in the in the show notes as well. Thank you so much for doing this. If you're ever in Phoenix, let me know about an espresso. Yeah, you make San Diego Tiki serpents. Really? Yeah. Can you teach me how to do it?
I sure I could teach it. Absolutely.
Okay. Well, I'm coming this summer, so I'll hit you up.
Yeah. Yeah. Should we live? Yes. South Bay. We'll find a good time of day to surf and I'll take you out there. Oh, it's cold. It's not like Hawaii, sir. It's a little bit colder, but, but yeah, definitely. Yeah, I'd be fine. Well, thank
you so much. Okay. Okay.
Thanks for the time. Well, that
was a lot of fun. I hope you guys enjoyed that. The book is called surf when you can. It should be out now everywhere. And I don't know that Brett has social media. But you can support the show by following us on social media. And you can support both the show and Brett by sharing this episode on social media and liking commenting all that good stuff on social media and
YouTube. And also make sure you're subscribed to the YouTube channel because all my podcast interviews are on there, but we also have some exclusive content. It's only for YouTube. So I appreciate all your support for the show and for my guests. Have a great rest of your day and shoot for the moon.