¶ Critiquing the Secrets of Hillsong Documentary
Hey , welcome to Christian A of podcast . Yeah , they know where they are . They've made it here They got here . Today we are talking about the new Hillsong documentary called the secrets of Hillsong . I had to really think about it . That's what we talked about here , which is on FX little four episode .
If you're plus 60 , it's on effect .
Yeah , if you have the cable , Yeah . So today we're talking about a lot , a lot a bit about Hillsong and Brian Houston and Carl Linn And the problems with documentary .
Yeah , we felt that we should talk about this one , because we discussed the last one And this one has some point of view from Carl and slightly differing opinions and whatnot , so we just decided to talk about what we're doing today . So grab a drink .
Basically we all love Brian Houston . We think he's innocent .
The best of the best .
We're going to hire him .
Yes , I listened to every song .
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The secrets of Hillsong , which are not secrets .
Is that the start ? Do we start ? Sure Yeah , okay .
Why is every podcast we do that Today ?
Everyone expects it On today's episode , we are talking about the secrets of Hillsong , which are not secret and haven't been for two years . But , FX still thinks they are secrets . Yeah , we're talking about Hillsong , the new Hillsong documentary for part of the secrets of Hillsong You guys are featuring . Carl Lunds Speaking of branding , which is our next episode .
The logo is Hill , the secrets of song . If you look at like their poster . I hate it when people do that .
I mean I looked at that shoot . Yeah , I have to look . Yeah . So sorry if you guys are sick of us talking about Hillsong , but it's currently happening again .
Well , it's just interesting , because Carl is on this one , yeah , and so you know , i think it was just a . We talked about it at the last time .
Yeah , he's still hot , he's not . He's got a body .
Oh , they sure did Whatever . That's annoying . I want to see Can you do that , he's literally split it . Hill , the secrets of song .
Oh Dumb I wonder , do they get Carl to do this thing at the beginning ? Like did they take a photo , like hey .
This is not a visual medium . He's crossing his fingers , probably mid-journey They made that Mid-journeyed the cover .
Yeah , easy enough to do nowadays . Yeah , so we're talking about more Hillsong garbage .
More , so I have critiques of this documentary . The last one sucked . I had high hopes for this one . This one sucked too .
Should we talk about what we're drinking first ? Oh yeah , Sure . Okay .
Real quick .
What .
I said , Evan , what do you have ?
Yeah , Cora's Banquet Classic .
It's just the .
I like it better in the bottle .
It's so good I like it just regardless , didn't you make fun of me for drinking that . No Bud Light , You were drinking Bud Light .
When did you drink Bud Light ? Oh , at lunch .
I panicked and I didn't see that . Cora's , i just want like a basic .
He's single-handed . I needed a basic bitch Beer with a burger .
Yeah Well you know . Anyway , today we are drinking .
Yeah , jesse , and I have from Pig Mind's Brewing Punch Patch a fruited how do you say that kind of beer .
Ghosts . With blueberries and vanilla , which sounds weird Madagascar vanilla , not even just vanilla .
Which sounds weird , but it is , it's quite tasty . I actually like it a lot more than I thought I would If you go into it with mindset of like a cider in your head .
it's more to figure out like this is going to suck and I'm not going to like it . Did you try it ?
It's good I don't do sours , it's not very sour , it's gross .
Just think about a cider before you sip it . I don't want it , i don't know . It is good , i like it .
I don't like fruit in my beer and I definitely don't like ghosts .
Delicious .
I'm enjoying it much more than I expected . It is pride fun for Jesse .
You know I celebrate how I can add a little color to my life . So today do you want to get into right away what you hated about the deal .
Well , we all know the story of Carl Lentz and Hillsong . We know that there were some good things about it , a little bit of his backstory , a little bit of kind of what led the culture , the culture of Hillsong , that led to him being a douche . But the Brian Houston or Carl Carl . Yeah , now they show like Carl .
When he was in college I was like no , he was always a douche .
But the I mean in sync , for sure .
Yeah , but so we all know the story . He had an affair and his wife got caught . They never really got into the multiple affair thing because he's had multiple They talked a little bit about , like the babysitter , which that was another thing , like the nanny had a nanny , oh my .
God , we watched it twice . So we're talking Yeah , so there's a part in there where someone that he is accused of having an affair with was his nanny . Who his wife punched her in the face , which testified Sure Was the nanny .
But then she got nanny The nanny had a nanny at home . Yeah .
And I'm thinking , I mean , maybe the girl called herself a nanny and she was just babysitting .
The only thing that made me think is I think that I did not like the Clef pallet girl . She annoyed the junkie .
She did annoy me a bit . She , though , had , i think , only one kid at home , yeah . And the other and Carl's family has like a thousand .
Three , three . It looked like a lot . It's like the same as you and me It feels like a lot .
Three is a lot , guys . It feels like a lot anyway .
But yeah , so my thought is she was getting paid substantially more to watch Carl's kids and then she was getting paid a lot less to watch her kids .
Yeah .
So you know also screwing Carl .
Yeah , But there are Right off . It took me two sits because I was annoyed Not because The story sucks already of Hillsong , I was annoyed at how they painted the documentary . Like the documentary right off the bat it's like oh , this is anti-church , anti-Christian .
They're lumping Christianity into all of the expressions of Christianity as representative or as represented by Hillsong And that annoyed me . Like they were talking about like charismatic churches and charismatic stuff , but they used non-charismatic pastors to reflect that . Like when they . There was a montage in the first episode of different pastors And there was like .
I was like no , like this is Like these people don't fit into this crowd , Like that's not good . It's not good journalism one . And it was very negative towards , Like the interviews . They definitely cut and pasted the interviews to make it more negative , reflective on the church as a whole rather than on like Carl being a douche .
Well , and that's one of the things I noticed was like this felt like Carl's opportunity to kind of write the story a little bit , and because I think the other documentary was very much like Bad Hillsong , but also with this blip on the radar of Carl's indiscretions and his fall from the top , but this one it felt a little bit more Carl's slow basketballing and
the thing I was like .
this is awkward .
Like redemptive , trying to be redemptive , and again , i think it is not . We talk all the time about how pastors aren't allowed to make mistakes , and that's definitely Whether or not you like him . Whatever , i could never go to a church that he was pastoring . He says two words and I'm frustrated . Whatever I'm saying , even before I wouldn't have fallen for .
I wouldn't have been enamored by him personally , but I understand that .
Was he touched you ?
No , no , not really I didn't realize How good I didn't realize , i didn't realize , it's not better .
He's still douchey .
Yeah , i never noticed your low pants .
You can be as hot as you want . You're still a douche canoe and I'm still not going to fall .
Yeah , it looks like he is the Christian version of what I feel like Justin Timberlake is like .
I think Justin Timberlake is probably nicer .
I don't think so . I think he probably is a massive douche . He seems nice . Of course , they all seem nice . Carl Lentz seemed nice . No , he's a tool .
No , I will say I don't think they painted him in a nice way . They did a good job at smashing his situation , Yeah .
But I think they also tried to give a little pity party to it , but they gave him an avenue out . Yeah , yeah , they gave that opportunity .
It brought up that he was sexually abused at some point .
As a child .
As a child .
By no means am I trying to . What was that ? I'm trying not to . Okay , this sounds very insincere or nice , but it just seems so convenient that he was or was not , i don't know .
He could have been exposed to porn at a young age or exposed to . There's a whole bunch of stuff that will lead We all have trauma .
Like whether , no matter if yours is worse than mine , we all have shit we went through And it does create , it does play a big part in who you become , and I think And if it goes unaddressed ? Yeah , and if he was talking about , i mean existing off of Ritalin is my assumption when they got into a whole conversation or he said stuff about .
ADHD and taking medication and to get through . That's the other one .
That all the college kids use Adderall , adderall . There's also Vyvance now If you're using that .
I mean , he was basically saying , like I got to the point where I had to use that to get through the 10 services .
I was expected to get through , to give . Well , of course , yeah .
Like I understand all of that And I I'm not . I mean , honestly , he messed up And he is I mean , at least in the interview was accepting of that . Do I buy most of it ? No , but I do think it's worth us saying , like you have to acknowledge that people will mess up , they will let you down .
You Everyone has their own crap that they're carrying with them And most people don't deal with it . Most people aren't Especially people . I mean , he's not that much older than you and I . I mean , well , he was 8 . He's like 12 .
He's like 45 or something like that .
He's like 10 , 12 years older than us , But most people in those . I mean it is newer for people to be dealing with their stuff than it is . Most people have not , You know you don't ? There are most More people now going to counseling for the first time at 45 or therapy than ever would have before .
And for people to even say like it's okay to need help . And I think he probably didn't feel as the head of that church that he could even say , hey , I'm going through some shit , because the second he said something , his whole life blew up .
Well , I think that's one thing .
He also waited to say something , yeah , yeah , but I'm sure .
But at what point do you say something ?
Yeah , i guess , like there's .
Even in non-church culture , yeah , but like in church culture especially , there is no safe spot to stay .
I'm not even talking about the affair Like that's a whole separate thing , but like for him to be expected to lead 10 services , yeah . And then when ? The culture ?
I mean if this is true or not .
He said to Brian I'm not sure I can do this to Brian Houston And Brian Houston said well , when I was your age , i was doing 10 . 11 or what , or he was doing sevens or whatever it was , but to then be told by the person that is like mentoring you that you're actually not even doing enough yet . So you need to figure it out . That's fucked up .
Yeah , you
¶ Mega Church Culture and Hillsong's Toxicity
know , yeah .
Yeah , because in reality , the culture of Hillsong the documentary did do a pretty decent job of exposing how , not The toxic isn't Obviously the culture was toxic , but the fast track to burn out culture within Hillsong which obviously , obviously , lentz , was burned out at the end .
And he was running on fumes and running on his own charisma which , to his defense , he's a very charismatic , naturally charismatic guy . Yeah , he had the ability to go out and like , reach hundreds of people and bring them to the church the next day , which that's like , that's a legitimate gift .
But they , what happened was , i think Hillsong exploited that gift rather than allow it to flourish .
And I think they tried to Um make him the scapegoat of like , because obviously he messed up , he shouldn't have been . He needed to be removed from leadership at that point with where his life was , but it was just .
I think there was one point in that where they said , like Carl is just a cog in the wheel , Like , at the end of the day , all of these major issues that people then put on him weren't really coming from him . They were coming from the way the organization was set up and is still set up . Cause they haven't fully dissolved right .
No , the Brian Brian isn't around . That's a new lead pastor , the guy the- .
But that's still decades of , yeah , of what I mean . what he built is not gone as of yet , right And won't be for a long time .
A lot of it is crumbling .
Yeah , like Houston closed , like a bunch of the United States ones closed . I mean , i think Hillsong , new York is still going , the one in Jersey closed , hillsong , la is still going , the Texas one closed and one in like Arizona or something closed . But there was , and this is the problem , it's not just Hillsong . Yeah , it's a reflection of the .
We kind of talked about this the last like a year ago or whatever , when the other one came out two years ago , maybe like two years ago now , i think it was about a year ago , i think .
it was like last summer Where the large charismatic single leader like couple leader churches , like if there's ever like co-lead pastors and it's a husband and wife , it's always kind of a okay , you got to think about what is going on like what kind of control is happening there ?
And Hillsong is just one example , because they weren't the largest church in the world . They were big , but they weren't the largest church in the United States , let alone internationally . I mean , that's you have to go . life church is bigger out of Oklahoma city . you have church of the Highlands , which is a charismatic church .
out of Birmingham , which is way bigger , north Point Andy Stanley's church , which is not charismatic . they're bigger But so they're not like the largest church . but they did have the greatest influence in terms of music And they set the tone for church trend .
Yeah , they became very attractive Like skinny jeans . Like their vibe is sexy . That's what they're going for .
Yeah , a sex appeal .
Yeah .
And Carl was the definition of a sex appeal guy in a New York context . He looked like a dude who would be outside of Hollister with that shirt on trying to get or what . Was it Hollister or Abercrombie that did the ?
shirt No Hollister , they stand like in the front , like in the window .
Abercrombie for sure did it .
Maybe inside too , or maybe they both did it .
They both did it , but one of them the guys for sure didn't wear shirts , I can't remember which one was ?
That was Abercrombie , john and Andrew .
They did that , ew Jesus . Anyway , yeah , i mean , I guess you all kinda had sex back then .
But I mean there's , i think again , the whole documentary is kind of rehashing some of the stuff that went on the last one . It gives a little more backstory to some of the the Brian Houston stuff , the Frank Houston stuff . Yeah , a little bit more in depth , i think , now that they have more knowledge about what's been going on .
Yeah .
But it's just more infuriating to . Again , it's just the mega church culture of brushing under the rug And I'm not saying every mega church does that , but it's gotta happen a lot Yeah , In most churches , to the point Even small churches . But like the whole mentality of we're not gonna let this stuff leak . So there's the NDAs , which we've talked about recently .
There's all these things trying to like cover up . The episode four was talking about how they started pulling in certain people to have them basically in a circle of people tell your deepest , darkest secrets Like oh I , have you watched porn recently ? Have you masturbated recently ? Have you done this , Have you ?
done that And basically it just it came down even in . They put in their permanent notes and some people couldn't get jobs later because they were marked down as this , that the other thing happened or whatever . Even if it didn't , they like fudged it a bit .
Like using it against .
Yeah , and they had to , like , basically sit there in front of people and say , yeah , i have done this , yeah , and they're like , oh , there'll be no repercussions for this . And of course there were . It's just so manipulative .
Yeah , and I think the Hillsong , their version of being attractive was being sexy , and so the culture was sexy people being sexy to try and spread the gospel . But that obviously lends itself to bad things .
Obviously , if you get a bunch of 20 year olds leading a band and they're all sexy , they're all having sex Like they're on tour buses , like touring the world , and they're not like sneaking into each other's hotel rooms , what ?
Like come on , I'd be more shocked if that didn't happen .
Yes , yeah , like absolutely Yeah , they weren't doing Bible studies I can tell you that .
I wrote these notes last night while I was drinking whiskey . I just wrote Brian Houston is a bitch ass , bitch Clear . point to be had .
But what's the first one , the nanny .
That was the one we talked about .
Who should have been a pastor was the nanny of the nanny .
She graduated the Hillsong Right here too .
I didn't realize . Mike Kasper is old . Yeah , I needed it . I was not like old , but , like you know , mid 40 , 50s He looks like an old Jew .
He's like 43 . He looks like an old Jew .
In my head the dude was like 23 or something like that .
He looks like he should be in Brooklyn .
His headshot is a lie .
He looks like he should be in Brooklyn yelling Oive to kids playing stickball . That's what he looks like .
But he it just threw me off because I think when all of what's his face and stuff was going on with Mike Kasper Mars Hill , right , i looked him up and he is definitely using like a 10 year old headshot , you know if not longer , but it threw me off , but I was like Mike , i thought you were so much younger . Anyway , i think it's just .
It's just eye opening again to rehash it and see these things and what kind of damage it can do , let alone any church , but mega church culture as a whole . I just feel like it has so much damage control to do that And that is being avoided , ignored .
Yeah , Well , it's like you're thinking about . There was a bunch of weird stuff . So the Clef Palate girl , whatever her name was- Tiff Was her name , tiff The nanny . The nanny of the nanny Yeah , The nanny's nanny , Sweet girl .
I don't doubt There was a bunch of stuff that was wrong , Like she , a couple of things that she said where I was like , oh my gosh , one was she had to leave Massachusetts to go to the hospital in New York . I was like that's not how health insurance works , especially like in a post Obamacare world . That's not how health insurance works .
So I'm not sure what kind of like Christian health insurance you have or whatever Wait . Hillsong . Hillsong insurance Insurance is like , But so that kind of some of that stuff was overtly like negative where I'm like . I think anybody with a reasonable mind could recognize that there's some fallacies there .
But the problem is this documentary is not speaking to people with reasonable minds And so , similar to the rise and fall of Mars Hill , I cannot recommend this documentary to my non-Christian friends .
Yeah . Because , It'll just put the nail in the coffin .
Yeah , it'll put the nail in the coffin And there's so much wrong with it in how they paint the church as a whole .
Yeah , that just drove me like , like Heather and I , i think we started watching it after leadership meeting , i think it was I was like , oh yeah , it came out And so we started watching it and I couldn't get through it the first episode because I was just paint , like , picking out the stuff that was like blatantly not what they were saying , like they were
putting a pastor's face as well . I was like that guy's actually a good dude , like what , like what .
That one confused me a little bit , because Pete ends with an isn't one of those whole areas .
Yeah , he is , yeah .
I was like , wait , are they trying to like say ? he said some other stuff like that , But I paused it . You guys talked to me about it , right , you're used , or ? Alex said she thought it was more of just giving like church pastor point of views and those things .
I don't remember .
I don't remember what it was specifically .
But Pete ends also as a pastor .
That's true . I think it was more .
They were talking about the whole sexual identity area or like or just gay gay choice Yeah there was , like there was definitely a what drove me , or support in the church Yeah , that was the other thing , the LGBTQ stuff , which , whatever . But the whole thing , like they painted it as oh , the church is still behind . Like , what are they behind of ?
Like they're not with culture , like , like even the documentary painted that the church needs to be with culture , when the church historically forever has been counter cultural And so it's like makes sense that from any cultural standpoint that the church should be counter , not ahead of or keeping up with whatever direction the culture is going .
Yeah , cause that's always like a . So they had a bunch of interviews that were like oh , the church is still like way behind on this . I'm like what does that even mean ? Like , don't even bring that up . Like that's not even a good representation of anything that is church . But regardless of what you believe on the community issues , it's just like any issue .
Like what does that mean for the church to be behind ?
I don't , yeah , that just I think it just I mean , i think that the church corporately not every church , right , But like Big C church it feels as though they are 20 years behind everybody else on a lot of things is what I took that as , and I think you see that , like , even where we live , like I would say , rockford is 20 years behind all the cool
stuff other places are doing , and I think it's just an awareness of saying , like you can't expect the church to be making decisions in the same way individuals are .
There's a lot of people to consider as we , as things evolve in the world , and so , of course , any , i think , any major organization and any major , even major cities like it just takes time for things to evolve and things to change , and we live in a society now where people expect instant answers and instant change and instant gratification for things .
Like oh , so much of our lives are instant And so we expect that of , and I think smaller churches could do that right Like if a I mean our church . We could respond more quickly because there's 50 of us that we have to be concerned about .
But when you're running an organization that is millions of people across all platforms , all locations , it's unrealistic to think like they could get a lot done , So , like the action that they could do is a lot , but the movement is going . it has to be slower because they have a lot more to consider .
But it's the You know what I'm saying . But the biggest question is for me is like should , i guess , should the church be with the culture ? I'm not saying they should necessarily .
but I am saying , like we have to , we do adapt to the times , like church now does not look like what church looked like 200 years ago but that's because Sure but my point is what I felt they were saying is they expect the church to change with us ?
next to us as quickly as we are And I think that part's not realistic , but I do think the church needs to evolve as the world evolves , Like our , but our- .
I think our- .
Our mission is the same , Like nothing has nothing changes with what the goal of the church is Our approach .
should adapt , not necessarily the theology but the doctrine , i guess .
And even then it's like if you go off of what Jesus taught love people , love God If that's the tenant that we say is like the two most important commandments , then that means our answer to a lot of the world's questions are already answered for us , and the church tends to act like they're not . I think that's what I got .
I get from it is like we should support certain things , that people think the church should support certain things , and I think some the church can be scared to make a public stance , which I get . But if we just like keep leaning on , here's what Jesus taught in your messaging .
That's a lot different than saying we don't support something , right , well it's yeah , the activism- . I don't know if I'm saying that the way I want to Well .
I think the harder part about activism is floating there . Like you said , you're taking a stance as a whole , as a church . Is that the responsibility ?
Is that because ?
there was a lot of push in there too , like dumping in Carl , for either not doing enough for the black community or diversity , even though he supposedly was very in some culture would say is very active in that , to a point of saying like I wanna get he was aware of holes in the way in what they had , whether or not he could- .
But like , where's the point of like ? he even said like in that interview point like you can talk to a hundred people and they'll have different opinions on what I should have done or what I do or don't .
I have an opinion . Well , i think that's the slippery slope of activism in general is like if the church becomes too focused on that , then they're , like he said , pretty much like now there's a hundred people with a hundred causes .
And we can't what I'm saying You become like every 20 year old white girl who's like oh , there's a protest . I don't even know what's about- .
Or there's a sign for everything in my yard , or whatever .
Yeah , you put the coexist bumper sticker on . What does that mean ? No idea , but it's- .
But what I'm saying is I think , we should coexist , but you
¶ Transformation, Identity, and Church Culture
get that- . Maybe , rather than saying like the church needs to support every type of activism there is , Instead the church should just lead with like we love people , And that means like we support those that are here , and we are here to love people and to make disciples . And at the end of the day like- And the disciple transforms .
but that's not our responsibility to transform them . It's to get them to a place where they are open to the transformation , like soften their hearts as much , to where they allow the spirit , not saying like , pray , weigh the gate . That's not what I'm saying , but it's like are we allowing room for transformation with how we view money ?
Yeah , or how we view Or whatever .
Yeah whatever the issue might be Like , we all struggle with something I always say there's something that keeps everybody away from the table . Everybody has something that keeps us away from that should keep us away from the table , but the saving grace of Jesus is that we have a seat at the table . So the point is that everybody could sit down .
But if we're pursuing Jesus , then transformation should be a key component of that . I don't like , and what I don't see in churches like Hillsong or some of the big , other big charismatic churches is one room for transformation because , for instance , hillsong was the opposite at least Hillsong , new York was the opposite of , say , like a Tim Kellis church .
This is another great thing . Like I've read an article , the Tale of Two Churches , hillsong , new York , and Redeemer Prosperterian , both of mega churches in New York City , who reached young professionals , carl Lentz . It was like big , loud , charismatic , low character , high drive .
But then you have Tim Keller , who's high character , not charismatic , he preached and he wore a suit and tie and they had like a small orchestra playing music And , ironically , where you see Carl , he's sitting on stage going and it's looking out to this theater . That's the Centennial Memorial Temple of the Salvation Army .
That's where I took my son to see that music in New York City a couple of years , a few years ago before COVID . So that's like the Salvation Army thing Hillsong New York began there but now Redeemer Prosperterian meets there .
So it's kind of like a tale of two different churches where you have like high character in deeply spiritual formation and transformation and then you have low character with like , oh , just come , it's a party , it's fun , you know , just stay , like just come and stay , give money , serve whatever . And it's yeah , that's just another , But the one guy just the .
I think what you're gonna mean . This was the expectation that the church should be , the church needs to be accepting of what the culture says is accepting . I think that's counter to what the church actually should be .
The church should actually constantly be pushing not pushing against culture , but should be criticizing culture , not from a negative standpoint , but should be like hold on a second .
We are trying to , for instance , that the gay guy who was a worship leader , obviously his greatest point of his identity was his sexuality And I get that like , sexuality is a part of everybody's being , but that's what he was focused on , like how can I be a gay Christian , rather than how can my identity be founded in Christ ?
He wanted the church to affirm first he was gay , then he was a Christian , rather than first he was a follower of Jesus who happened to be gay . This is like a . It's a small difference , but they expect the church to focus on the individual . This is that individual thing , your individual proclivities .
This is your individual proclivities , trump , what the nature of the gospel is And the nature of Jesus is saying come to me all . You're weary and heavy-weight , i will give you rest .
Take my yoke , no , take my identity , take my work upon you and learn from me , rather than come with me and continue to carry all this baggage and the church will follow that and affirm the baggage that you're carrying around , rather than leave that stuff behind and just yeah , you're not gonna change what you're attracted to . Nobody can but I could .
I know that my identity should be , and it's often not , but my identity should always be , first and foremost , with who Jesus claims that I am through his blood , rather than Jesus saying it's okay to be greedy , you're a greedy Christian , or you're a selfish Christian , or you're a American Christian or a maga Christian or whatever .
Like throw all of the , throw all of the , the I don't know what those are called but throw all of the adjectives away .
And I feel like the documentary pushed the church to focus on the adjectives rather than the and hell song was obviously shitty , but That drove me nuts about it was that everything was like oh , the church isn't there , church isn't there , church isn't there .
I was like I don't even know what that means I don't know , yeah , yeah , Like I'm not a straight Christian , i get it . Culturally being straight is more acceptable , i guess . Well , maybe today , but it's still .
I think the harder part is You don't see like dudes who are addicted to porn , like I'm a porn addicted Christian or I'm a pedophile Christian , or like the sexuality thing drove like drives me crazy in all aspects of life . It's like that's not , that should not consume your being .
I think the harder part is the there's no .
Whether it's sin or not , who knows ? but shouldn't consume it .
I guess it's that floating gray area . Then at that point of saying , well , if I still have those proclivities , what do I do with it ? And then having a church like Hail song , directly , like completely like abandoned , that mindset of saying , oh , we don't believe this is correct , we don't do this , we don't do that .
So I think it's easy to just take that immediately as somebody who is gay or whatever , to say like , well , i've been abandoned by the church , i've been abandoned like what do I do ? How do I function ? How do ? and that leaves the same questions of people that are like well , i am in a gay marriage , i am in this , so what does that mean for me ? now ?
Like are you saying I'm not accepted here . It's nice and easy to say I mean , place your identity in Christ , which I don't disagree with . I think the harder part is then what You know , and that's where I think there's a lot of failure in the narrative of how to approach that , like , whether it would be Hail song or just church culture as a whole .
Where do people that are going through that like , how do they fall and where do they go with that ? Like , are you saying , as a whole , i don't belong here then , because I have these feelings where I am living this way .
I think that's the harder part that I think the church as a whole is failing , and I think that is also brought up by that whole Hail song narrative too .
But I think , yeah , like , there is a I don't know the like the marriage thing is difficult because there are really two kinds of marriage in the United States . There is , you know , religious marriage and there is a civic marriage .
And the argument , i think for a lot of people one , the argument is should the government have their hand in marriage , which is civic marriage ?
right , like first of my wife and I we got married civically a year before we got married in a church , but we go by our church marriage as the actual marriage , not because , like , like , legally there was probably legal crap but we don't like , we don't care about the legal stuff necessarily And so like , like what ?
it's a difficult question because , again , i don't , i don't believe that like a . It's a great example is whether if you're gay and married , like , of course you have a place at the church , of course church will love you , of course we're not going to tell you get divorced and leave your person and , you know , marry the opposite sex .
Of course that any church that does that is ridiculous . But there's a prominent author who was married , had three kids , then he became Christian author , who became , or , you know , came out as gay but then left his spouse for because he was gay .
And I was like at that point , like you already committed and regardless , like I'm not going to leave my wife because I find another woman attractive , like like I'm committed , deeply committed to that relationship . So like suck it up , dude , like like you should have like realized this when you were 27 , or you knew that because he always writes .
I knew I was gay the whole time , but you know all this stuff And I was like you're . You're placing an identity above everything else , above commitment , above sacrifice , above , because marriage , ultimately , is the opposite of the American dream .
American dream is life , liberty , the pursuit of happiness , marriages , sacrificing life , sacrificing liberty and sacrificing , in most cases , happiness .
And so if it's , it's the opposite of the American dream , and so that , yeah , i don't know , that seems , yeah , i feel like we should be willing to sacrifice ourselves , We should be willing to sacrifice our attractions , we should be willing to sacrifice our identities for the sake of the gospel .
And in America we just it's so hard to to recognize that , like you go to Iran and people are sacrificing everything just to worship Jesus And we're sitting here arguing about , like sexual attraction . It's like , come on , like what are we doing ?
Like Well , I mean , I think people were made to defend it . The church made them do that .
The church made them feel horrible about who they are and who they're attracted to , their parents , their , I mean everything , And I think that's why we were in a place now where people do find so much identity in their sexuality is because you don't have to come out as straight , you don't .
No , but I'm saying like you don't .
it is a , it is a part of people that they grow up feeling shameful for , and I don't , i don't agree with that . I think you , i don't think that . I don't think that that is like .
we shouldn't be in a place where coming out means people lose their families , means people lose their communities , where people do all of these things because of who they're attracted to , and I think that creates situations like that author who says I knew I was gay , but I got married and had kids anyway because I thought that was the only way , because I'm
certain he thought that's the way for me to be a good Christian or that's the way .
My biggest argument against that is that he has placed his own personal selfish . I'm not saying the leaving , the white part , i'm saying even before that , yeah , no , yeah .
I'm so I'm saying this stuff comes from . I mean , this isn't what this conversation about . We can stop . I didn't mean we don't need to talk about this all , but I just don't think we live .
But it's just this distinct part of the documentary , so yeah .
I don't think that . I think that it's a response to people having to suppress themselves , because if they're not allowed to say here's who I'm attracted to , because it doesn't , it's different than what people expect , because people expect you to be heterosexual , right , that's just the expectation .
And if it's any , even if you're like I'm not attracted to anyone and I want to be alone forever , you have to , like , tell people that , instead of people just being allowed to be who they are And that's just part of their lives , instead of because then it isn't part of their identity , But it becomes part of their identity because they have to bite people .
They lose people over it . They lose part of themselves over it , because if they're suppressing themselves for years and years and years , whatever it may be , i think we've created a place where not we , but I'm talking about capital Society has said this makes you different , this makes you wrong . If you're within the church walls , there's so many things .
How many people do you hear that ? who are gay specifically , who say like well , when I came out to my family , i haven't spoken to them in 20 years Yeah . Yeah .
What ? Yeah , no , i don't disagree with that .
So now we're responding to all of that .
Yeah .
And we're responding to generations of people who that has become their identity because they lost everything else .
Yeah And so . But I think going forward , like it's easy to .
¶ Moving Forward With Identity in Jesus
One of the things that personally I'm trying to do is not focus on the sins of the past , even though we have to correct those . How can we move forward being better ? because we're not going to be able to correct ? we can't go back in time and correct them .
Why we move forward being better and I think for me it's we have , like the church has to do a better job of recognizing that we all place our identity and things that are not of Jesus but the call of the church and the call of the people of the church is to be consumed by Jesus , identity not consumed , and that I think that's the path forward .
What happens in the past ? like we can't change that . We can't change the sins of the past . They already happened . So what do we do ? moving forward , and moving forward , it's okay . Yeah , we made those mistakes . That's what were the root of those mistakes ? Now , there are philosophical things .
There are , you know , cultural things that took place , but how does the church respond ? I don't think the church response should be like fully affirming , like cool , mainly because I try my hardest , even if I disagree with it on a sociological level . If I disagree with something that scripture says , i feel deeply that we should be like you know what ?
like first Corinthians first , like the church and like people are like well , paul , there's different society . It was way backwards , and I mean they were much more debauchers than we are as a society . The church in Corinth , like Corinth , was like go sleep with prostitutes as a sacrifice to the gods , like that's a much more debauchers world than we live in .
And so it's like that wasn't that , it was . He was not like the quote unquote , like the Prog of the times or we're not quote unquote more progressed than they were . In many cases we could argue that we're a little bit regressed .
But I think the church's response is not being fully affirming , but it's affirming fully what we have always been called to affirm scripturally and as identity in Jesus . That when you're in Christ you're a new creation . The old is gone , the new has come . What does that mean ?
And that means we take on this full identity of Jesus , of who Jesus claims that we are rather than who we desire ourselves to be . It's a very American , selfish way of looking at Christianity .
It's something that we as a church have been fighting against , like our church fighting against hyper individualism and stuff like that , and it shouldn't be like like I should , like we shouldn't be pressured into finding that and I get that like we're over correcting a little bit in because of all the sins of the past , but I'm not sure that's that's the correct
way to go . I think we have to affirm fully a person , whether you're an alcoholic , whether you're a drug addict , whether you have your pedophile , whatever it is . We should , we should say come because of the grace of Jesus .
Affirms who Jesus says you are rather than who you believe yourself to be , or what your book clivities are or your desires or whatever . One of the biggest arguments I mean you think about .
I mean I don't believe Catholic priests should be single , but the amount of stuff they give up just to become a priest is actually kind of it's beautiful in a way , because it's like , oh , you're giving up connection , you're giving up your sexuality supposedly , you're giving up all of these things to be because of a higher call , because of a higher you know
right of whatever , and there's something to that . I'm not saying that's what we should do . We shouldn't put on sackcloth and walk around with our hands tied behind our backs and we shouldn't I don't believe we shouldn't express ourselves sexually .
I just don't think it should be the most important thing about us And it's actually the most uninteresting thing about us .
Yeah , I think I think there's a weird happy medium still in the middle that people are just it's a hard thing because you have to put a foot down if you come down to it or not . But like chasing , i think , the proclivities thing , like I think again , finding yourself , your identity in a certain thing that you feel is a problem regardless .
I think it's also unfair to say I don't feel it in the same way as somebody who is gay . Like I can't feel that , like I don't feel it that way . So like the harder part about all that is , well , i don't know if that's necessarily true , because you like sexuality is sexuality Right .
You know , attraction is attraction .
I think it's strong , it's equally a strong , more so in the sense , no no more so in the sense , though , that it's pushed away by the church , because if the church hard embraces marriage as a whole , to say that you are not encouraged to experience that unless it's within a man and woman relationship is the biggest turnoff and frustration .
figuring that out for somebody who has proclivities to other people , whether that is or is not a selfish or a way you go about it , you can still have a very happy , self-sacrificing marriage as a gay couple , just as a straight couple , obviously .
I think the harder part is that the church does not actively say that's healthy and okay , and I think that's the biggest turnoff for people that are going through that stuff . specifically that guy on the documentary .
you know feeling that like again , like you feel abandoned to a point because I think you set yourself up for failure in the sense of saying everything about me is with this one identity right , like I get that side of thing , but at the same time you're told that you can't actually experience love in a relationship in that way , and I think that's the biggest
failure . The other thing , going back to the leveraging people's secrets portion , is the whole . this guy created a what it was , church Watch or something like that . So basically , the website is supposed to function like these life transformation groups that you can sit down and talk to like a small , tiny group of people . It's supposed to be like three , right ?
Is that what we talked about ? Like three or four or something like that The whole goal is that you can actually , in a safe space , talk about it . Yeah , church Watch . Did you ever check out the website ?
I've been meaning to before we talked about this and I forgot to but if it functions like that like I think that's the we've talked about life transformation groups and ours and possibly putting those into action in our church .
I think the harder part about all this stuff like all of it again coming down to the whole , when you know there's moral failure going on with you personally or you know of somebody else or whatever that might be you're always going to hide it .
Like there's no option other than to hide it , other than you just taking the brunt blow over of it , of saying this is going to be shit And nobody's going to freaking do that because there's no like safe culture in that .
And yeah , and unfortunately moral failure is always sexual and there's other moral failures .
But it's almost always sexual . The harder part is like when you are involved in those certain situations or any of that stuff . Nobody's going to outwardly , just out themselves . It's just that's not going to happen . That's reality . The harder part about that is the church .
What the church what I just church watch website that they were talking about on there I think is a really cool outlet for some of that . The harder part about the LTGs that we're talking about I've always been curious .
That's confusing Yeah .
I know , is that like the assumption someone's not going to say something honestly , like that's the goal , and I think what you've talked about , we've talked about is saying if somebody from one of those groups comes up to me and I'm like , hey , you should know this about Jim and . T over here is . the hope is that you run away , but like you know ?
what do you do with that ? Or is that an expectation you can have , because I guarantee it that that doesn't ? it's not going to fly as smoothly as people like , because you will have that . One person is like well , hey , tim over here told me he touched a person once .
Yeah .
Or a kid , you know , or like something like that , where it's just like Oh my God , we should talk about this , Yeah .
I think there are like , obviously there are different levels . Like if someone's like , yeah , i've been actively sexually abusing a child , like of course you're like okay , we need to have a conversation . We need to call the police .
But the so there is like the extremes , but the truth is is like , like the church is filled with dramatically imperfect people and recognizing that we are all dramatically imperfect And we're all just hopefully striving to be more and more like Jesus , that even if there is something , you know , we kind of had a small situation at church that didn't thankfully didn't
get out , that could have turned into some deep division and within people in our church , and it was like our church is small enough to where they address those things relatively easily and be like , hey , knock it off , like that's not what we're about . But it also comes down to the culture of the church .
Like for our church to do pull off LTG is way easier than a church like Hillsong , because you could tell that , one , they're all sexy And two , the culture was a sex culture , obviously like , even though that it wasn't like a value , like Hillsong values Jesus and the Bible and having sex with other people , like it wasn't like a value of theirs , but it was
obviously like a sex driven culture , whereas our church isn't like that . I think As followers of Jesus , we need to grow the ability to be vulnerable and intimate with one another in a trustworthy environment . That's the beauty of the life transformation group model is that you choose people who you trust already . The diamond dogs Yeah , it's not like .
Is that what they're called , ted ?
Lasso Ted , lasso Ted .
Lasso , that's kind of . Oh , i like that , i just like It does feel good . That's the whole show . I know It just kind of . Anyway , wait , wait , don't give away anything , but yeah .
But the point is is like , like you shouldn't be like all right now , dave , john and Mark , you're in an LTG . Who are the ? I don't know Dave or John .
I'd rather that . I'd rather have Purina on an anonymity .
The problem is that lenses , Like I'd rather have . Like for me it's like right here are some people who I could be like You know , Heather and I are going through this or whatever , or where you could have deeper vulnerable like deep .
I like a good , deep conversation , I like a good discussion , But I think that's The church has failed in that drastically , which has lent itself to people hiding it , And I think LTG has allowed people to bring with that which is hidden to the surface
¶ LTG Accountability and Church Culture
.
Well , and over time . Well , people would be addressing issues before they become major issues the tall part . Yeah , like Which they should be pushing LTG groups in middle school .
Yes , exactly .
Like , like , have a conversation .
Yeah , and you know it's so , and I don't want to focus on sex stuff because unfortunately I don't know , but that tends to be the reason why those types of groups are avoided is because it's like , well , that's the Especially in the church , but that's the ultimate Yeah . Like uh-oh , yeah , we have to hide everything .
We have to hide what Straight gay lesbian , trans porn , anything , intersex , whatever . Yeah yeah , like we have to hide it rather than figure out the root cause of it .
And the only way to figure out the root cause is to have real honest , vulnerable conversations with one another , rather than be like let me shove this down and hope that it goes away , which it never does . Yeah , never does . Um And Uh . But yeah , i think they are .
Like the LTG I was in in seminary was with a group of guys who I had never met before And , of course , like the first like month of meeting was like , okay , these guys are weird and I don't know . But afterwards , once we ended the LTG , we were like , hey , let's just keep Like .
Once the mandate ended , we were like let's just keep this going Because we're having really good conversations and you don't know my boss , i don't know your boss , we're . At the time we were all like used pastors And so it was like we're all struggling with kind of the same stuff and we could sit there and shit on our bosses all we want .
We could sit there and read scripture and talk about how you know , whatever sin we're dealing with at the time And it was actually kind of really nice to have that , that quote-unquote accountability .
Now , when we say accountability again because culture and the church is so driven by sex , it's like , okay , let's get beyond that standpoint and really talk about like oh , you know what I'm like so drastically greedy that I'm not willing to help someone on the street , or I'm so drastically selfish that I'm not going to give up of my time to invest in somebody
else , or I'm so drastically busy that I'm not They don't have time for this or I'm so whatever is getting in the way , because everything is just getting in the way . If it's getting in the way of Jesus , then we got to figure out how to shed that . Shed that all sin done , whether it's sex , money , greed , drugs , i don't know .
Like I could easily be like yeah , i've been drinking way too much which is like 90% of the time .
I think a lot of those are . Wooden reality is probably my greatest issue is drinking too much I'd have to be in a group to give true commentary , but I see welcome failure in the sense that I still don't think people will be as dead honest as they should be , which the hope would be that you get there .
But I think again , the fear when you're getting in those positions and we talked about this to the nth degree , when you're talking in a high level position church , when you're in these situations there's no way out other than knowing you're going to get fired or something . So you just run with it for years .
I think that's the harder part of how do we change culture to avoid that , Because the harder part is you're hiding something because of fear . The reality is you shouldn't probably be in that position at that point to do those things . But at the same time , if you're gifted in those things and doing really good things , who say you should be gone ?
We've talked about that before again Should those people be taken out of complete church roles ? But I'll say , not even leadership , Leadership , 100% Church roles . Again I'll come back . Carl is now a strategist for The weird church transformation .
Another crazy church . Yeah , You spit in other dude's eyes on stage .
Talk about Jesus being a stripper . Yeah , it was a little much . Do you see the ?
clip of he brought his wife on stage and he had a feathery dress . He's like I'm going to pluck those feathers later . I'm like that's inappropriate . That's inappropriate .
But he's now working for a church again . Should that be a thing , I think , to me ? I'll just throw out my opinion real quick . I think his level of position is acceptable as a strategy .
Yeah , i agree , i agree .
It's not leadership over somebody , And I think obviously he's shown again and again that he abuses leadership ability and uses that to leverage people , and he knows that he said that .
He's aware He's not dumb , he is definitely . That's the one thing about the documentary . Even if he was trying to paint himself and trying to kind of control the narrative a little bit , you definitely felt I felt sorry for him .
I found myself feeling sorry for him more than I expected myself to , specifically because of the culture he was brought up in , the stuff that happened as a child which they didn't really address too much , but I felt sorry that he didn't have the things he needed to have . He couldn't go to Brian .
I equated this I think I got fired from Alabama , from our church in Alabama , because I was getting too close to the source of the issue , and the source of the issue was our pastor , was a complete asshole , and so I was getting too close to that and I was experiencing too much of the close stuff of that that he slipped up and opened his true self to me
as well as the other staff , to the point that a year after I got fired , everybody else was fired , because I think we all just got too close to who he actually really was , because he didn't have a system or a desire to let people in and help them deal with the issues , and that was Carl . Now , the pastor in Alabama wasn't .
I don't think he was having an affair or anything . I think he's going down that road at some point because of narcissism and stuff like that . I think we just got too close to it And the system of the church doesn't allow for people to surround pastors , leaders , staff members . They have to be the ones who are quote unquote setting the standard .
But what is the standard ? Because you can't set a standard if you cannot shed the crap you're dealing with .
Because everyone's dealing with something , like everybody Stanley Freakin , tim Keller was undoubtedly dealing with something , but Tim Keller and Andy Stanley , unlike Carl Lentz , probably had a group of people that he could talk to and shed those things off , whereas Carl obviously didn't .
Yeah , especially if you get it Or Brian obviously didn't .
Oh , yeah , yeah .
Well , and then you're left with the shambles of trying to deal with things , and then it's a constant excuse , excuse , excuse , Which I did appreciate . I think the only quote unquote excuse and I don't mean to be offensive by saying this , but was that he was assaulted when he was a kid , but that's the only thing . Everything else was just like .
No , it was me , it was me , it was me from his own mouth . The church's failure is not to address that assault , which is , like the second half of the documentary , the issue .
Yeah , yeah , and digging into Frank and all that stuff . I think I will say it was refreshing to see the side of them saying they stuck together , they're still struggling . They weren't lying about it . We're happy now , we're good . It's a clear struggle . I wouldn't be shocked if he just came over for the documentary And he's living somewhere for a little bit .
No , I think they are .
I think they're together , but you could see the strain They're joking about it , the whole dark humor crap going on at the end . You gotta laugh at your pain every once in a while . But it was still nice to see the attempt of saying and she said too , i see him trying The second , i don't , i will leave him .
Yeah , yeah , and that's the nature of infidelity is , i think , is do you acknowledge that you jacked up and are you willing to put in a massive amount of effort , more effort than you ever did , to not jack up again ? I think it's easier for women to accept that than it's for guys , because women are a little bit more trustworthy than guys are .
Guys are just like well , you bang another dude , like get out of here . Like the guys are the shitheads when it comes to that kind of stuff . Ladies are much more patient when it comes to that kind of stuff which is to their detriment , to be fair , because it leads to , obviously , abuses of women and stuff like that .
But yeah , i do appreciate that they're still together . I do appreciate that It seems like he's trying . I do appreciate that he's stayed out of the limelight for two and a half years , like it's way better than most , and I don't doubt that he . I don't doubt that he has changed . I think he has changed a good bit .
I don't doubt that he's deeply , deeply , deeply gifted and that the church needs his gifting . Thank you , thank you , but he should never be a pastor ever again .
Yeah , Is there in a role when somebody has those giftings and that happens like very specifically with him . Is there something that that would be useful to have those people instead of leading ?
What he's doing strategy Getting other people , getting other people to learn how he was able to go out into a nightclub and pull 150 people out and bring them to church . That's an amazing gift . Amazing gift Teach other people how to do it .
And how to stay away from the feeling .
Yeah , and don't bang people who are not your wife . Yeah Yeah , i did feel sorry for him . I don't , i still don't like him , but I did feel . I found myself feeling sad . But that's the beauty of the story is that that broken people break people , hurt people hurt people .
A victim creates victims , and so the church's needs to address the things at the beginning , not at the end , because at the end it creates an issue . The church needs to be a thousand percent better at caring . Yeah , yeah .
Simply just caring . Yeah , cool . Well , i mean again , there's up and downs to the whole thing . if you are a Christian , definitely go watch it .
Yeah , if you're not a Christian , please don't watch it .
Yeah , i mean it makes you wanna not be at some points but at least be associated with Christianity . But it's the failure of the organization sometimes And that's unfortunately brushed under the rug Carl was nothing more than human , yeah , so . I do . I also still appreciate that , like still drilled , Brian Houston .
That guy , that guy might be the devil Still sucks . He talks . he looks like a villain and he talks like a villain 100% .
How on earth . And then was complaining about when his church did what they did to Carl , to him .
Yeah , what a douche . Anyway , he needs to go to jail , yeah absolutely So , anyway , check it out , it's on .
I watched it on Hulu . But we should care , we should .
We probably not about him .
Is it technically an FX show ?
FX , but it's on Hulu .
It's on Hulu FX , Which is .
FX .
I think right now Do they own it I don't know , do they own it ?
Is it ? Yeah , Disney was forced to buy FX or Hulu , rather Forced to .
Yeah , yeah , fine . So , yeah , whatever , check it out , hill , the secrets of song It's . If nothing else , you can hate the guy forever if you want , but it's at least a look into his issues that he owned up to And it is .
I mean , it's better than the Discovery one .
Yeah .
But still not great . I wish they would have . I wish at least one good theologian would have been on there .
It's a bit like this is not okay .
Yeah , i would have liked a better talking guy . Yeah , i did like the Bullet guy the OG Hillsong , the actual Hillsong music . Yeah , jeff , jeff Like Bullock or something , jeff Bullock . I asked if it was Sandra's dad Geoff Geoff , that guy was cool .
I like that guy . He had cool hair .
Yeah , very blue eyes . Yeah , he did , it was like like devil blue , Like whenever you see somebody with like super bright eyes . Does the devil have blue ?
eyes , yeah , angelic blue . I just feel like anytime I see someone with like super bright eyes , i'm like you kind of look like Satan .
Satan have bright eyes . I don't know .
I've never seen him . I don't know He trusted Like you , just don't trust him .
Yeah , I know That's unnatural . That's a natural eye color .
I had a friend with that . All right , well , go check it out .
So you're not a Bino person , you're like oh my word , they can't help it . I know they can't but it doesn't change .
We're going to get our one albino writing And it's like these guys were cool until they ripped on my album .
I saw the weirdest thing . I saw an African-American albino person .
And it threw me off Probably the same one who went to high school with us .
No , this was in Alabama .
Oh , it was in high school .
The features were like black lady features , but pale skin , white eyes . I was like this is really really bizarre .
But yeah , that's what happens .
But your life matters .
You can cut that out , You know .
I will cut that out .
All right . well , anyway , as per usual , find us on christianafcom and all the socials .
Christianafpodcastcom . Christian AF podcast .
Dang it , christianafpodcastcom . We're going to make a canned thing soon , so I don't have to keep talking about this And you can skip right past it , but it's there for people who are new and want to find us , Give us money please .
Buy us a drink .
We can use the nice podcast equipment .
Yeah , so be looking forward to that . Jen and I will be using GPT to write . No , we'll be doing a quick little commercial style version of that crap And you can skip right on past it soon . But I'm sick of saying it over and over again .
Something to look forward to .
Yeah , I know , But yeah , buy us a beer if you want to . We appreciate it . If you want to give us all your money for any reason , that's fine . It's on the website . There's a give button there too .
Generosity . You can be a generosity rock star . Immediately , we're going to just drink your money away .
But go check that out . We will be back soon . Enjoy your Pride Month And we will be updating with some ideas on our social media .
¶ Church Branding and Asking for Opinions
We like having your opinions . I've forgotten to do the last couple , but I've been trying to update so you can give commentary . I usually put something on our stories to see if anyone has anything to talk about the specific thing we're talking about . But keep an eye out for that . Anyway , i keep asking questions at a questionnaire .
What's next Poc ? I don't think we have a choice . Our next episode branding Oh church branding It is .
We already recorded it So you can give your opinion on branding . Just show up and listen . Don't be a douche . Yeah , it'll be .
Just give us the listen . We're trying to make money . Immediately calling our listeners a douche We're trying to make money Download that shit Shut your butts .
And what did he say ? Shut your butts and sit your mouth down . Yeah , That's my new favorite thing . This thing Shut your butts .
Anyway . So yeah , i don't know where I was going with that Question . Question You are a pastor , you're a church Now .
Jen gave away your face Ted Lasso . Spoiler alert . He says shut your butts and sit your mouth .
Down . And it's the funny coach Beards .
Whose name ?
we learned .
Anyway , keep asking questions . Question Karl Lanz and his song , brian Transformation Church , brian Houston and all that . Just keep asking questions . I am Jesse , i'm Evan .
And Jen .
FF .