Episode 82 - Tongues Ablaze (Gregory D Hall)

 Hey everybody. Welcome to Christian AF, podcast.  We are recording this for the second time. The intro? No, not the whole intro and outro. Oh, we lost a chunk of this for some reason. So if we seem a little off Weird Evan's not here right now. So it's just Jen and I so it's gonna go smoother, peaceful, just very easy.

So, uh, anyway, we're talking today, uh, with Greg D Hall. About, uh, speaking, speaking in tongue. 

Wow. Let's just say everything. The time. Great. Like that sketch on SNL where they try to say the 

same 

thing. The same thing, same. Um, no. So, uh, anyway, we'll keep it short. Uh, just like I said, uh, this was recorded.

Uh, this part was recorded, so was our intro after the fact. So Evan, Evan will not be a part of that part, but, uh, enjoy the episode is a great episode. A lot of the stuff to think about. Talk about 

for now. Sit back, relax, grab a drink. Here we go.

Hey, everybody. This is, I, I don't know. I was gonna introduce myself again. You know, at this point, um, we are here. We have Gregory D. Hall back on. Do you, we, I think we asked you this, Greg. Like, 

Greg better? Uh, yeah, I mean, everybody that knows me just calls me Greg Or worse, Greg. Okay. 

And we know him now because That's right.

It's the second time on the podcast, 

Greg. Um, So, yeah, we have Greg back on, if you didn't catch his episode, uh, it was probably two, three back. Mm-hmm. Something like that. Um, 

two, three. That's what Jesse just did. 2, 

3, 2, 3, 2, 3, 4. I held on four. Um, just covering all options. Uh, but if you missed that, go check it out.

Uh, we decided to get you back on quickly cuz you, we quickly started talking about it at the end. Uh, something that we have not talked about yet on the podcast, which is speaking in tongues. Um, it's been on our list for a bit and I don't know why we never really got around to it, but it strike, uh, uh, a thought and, uh, So we're circling back quick.

Um, we also enjoyed your last podcast. I mean, there was also that, 

well, I mean, there was also didn't, didn't lay an egg, right? 

I was just trying to find which episode that was, but we turned off our wifi. Now it's not like nothing's working. 

Rethinking 

rest, I think. Oh yeah, rethinking Rest was the title of that was what I was trying to find.

Yep. There you go. Um, so I think what we're go, because maybe not, oh, I forgot already. You're just skipping. 

We started recording at at 11 today. What are you kidding? Um, anyway, we're gonna start with drinks as per usual. Uh, do you have anything you're sipping on today? We're like 90 episodes in. 

Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I listened to, before we get to drinks, uh, I listened to several of your last several podcasts and I've concluded this, if you guys, uh, are gonna make it into heaven, it's gonna be because of the last three quarters of your podcast.

And if you end up going to hell, it's because of the first quarter, the first, the intro 

part that's about on par. 

Um, sounds good. Like the part that probably most people just like skip their 

for the best really, probably. 

We just, it takes us a minute to settle into a, into, 

we have conversation. We have no filters.

And especially when we don't have guests, uh, things get a little dicey. Yeah. We know each other too well. Yeah. Um, so there's that. 

So there's that. So, uh, today, uh, last time I had, uh, a Pelican Brewery, so I'm representing the Northwest. This is, uh, Pelican is out in Pacific City, Oregon. They're very well known in the northwest and nationally have won some awards.

This is the Double India Pale Ale, and they call it Beak Breaker. Oh. It's a, it's a high alcohol content, so I won't be sipping on it very much at all today, but, uh, I thought, what more appropriate on speaking in tongues than the beak breaker. Yeah. Yeah. There we 

go. Yeah. So yeah, 

a couple of those will all be speaking in tongues.

Yeah. Some former I'm drinking, right? Yeah. Some kinda something. 

Yeah. I'm drinking criminal beer. Vienna style Lagr. Just like the last episode from Pig Mines brewing. Mm. 

I am drinking a bells, um, American Amber ale. Are you 

also having one of those? I'm having one of those after I finished my Guinness that we were ha uh, into, I actually poured it as you answered your call.

Holland, Michigan, right? 

Yes, sure. 

No, no. It's com stock. Comstock, Michigan 

Comstock. Anyway, uh, I think what we're gonna do is the kind of, uh, a. Refresher course on spiritual gifts. Yes. Does that sound 

good to you? Yes. So I think it would be nice to, if you've not grown up, uh, 

learning them. Yeah. So, uh, we talked about this with Greg before we started recording, but I grew up Catholic and, um, it wasn't something that I at least remember spending much, if any time, talking about we definitely didn't have, uh, people speaking in tongues in our church.

Um, 

does that happen in the Catholic church ever? Like that's, I don't, not that I know of, other than the, 

that's just him. That's the real words. Or like Latin. That's Latin. He's a lot of that. Uh, um, so for me, 

like I know this Marquette, or not Marquette, uh, Duquesne University in the 19, I think it was the sixties, had a big charismatic, uh, movement.

Movement take place. 

So for me, like once I switched to the evangelical church life, or more evangelical at least, that was kind of my first real experience with even just focus any kind of focus on spiritual gifts. Um, so maybe if, do you wanna just briefly go over what that would be? Spiritual gifts? Yeah.

Like 

what are they? They, what's, I'll throw it to Greg here since these is our guest. Oh, great. He's 

just like, oh, man. Great. So you've got, uh, I have a list. Do you want me to run through it? Y yeah, go for it. Actually, no. You want, oh, 

this is, uh, great. Uh, by chat, G p T, um, because this is all I do anymore, uh, you can correct if any of these are incorrect.

Uh, wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discernment of spirits, tongues, interpretation of tongues, teaching, serving, giving leadership mercy and administration, which I think most women are. No, I'm just kidding. Wow. Jen's like, I will slap, you'll cut you. Oh, ok. It's like, all right. That's what Chad GB t 

says.

Yeah. Uh, are the spiritual gifts. So, um, and I didn't, uh, I didn't go back and refresh on, uh, the list because I, I know that there are several places, two or three different places where there are lists of these spiritual gifts given, and none of those places have the exact same list. There's a lot of overlap.

Mm-hmm. There's some that don't overlap at all. Um, so theoretically the idea from a scriptural standpoint is that, um, for those that have come to faith in a correct understanding and belief in who God is in Jesus, that the Holy Spirit has a new relationship with those people and gives some sort of gifts.

To those people. And that's where those lists come from. So some people are good teachers, um, and, uh, some, you know, speak words of prophecy and some healing. We see a lot of this in the New Testament and the debate kind of is which of those gifts, uh, have survived in two modern times. And that's really the rub that, uh, you'll find in most different conversations about that topic.

Yeah, I, I'll throw this out to both of you. Um, cuz I, this is a question that kind of pops up in my head. Is it generally believed that you suddenly received a new gift? Or, or are you assumed to have these natural thoughts or like a, you know, some people are just good at, at teaching, you know. Yeah. Good at like, they're just from a kid, they're just, you know, naturally good at things like that.

Um, is it assumed that is not spiritual gifting until you become a Christian? 

Evan, you wanna, 

uh, I was, I think there were a couple different mo like in the charismatic movement, they would say, they would call it, I think it's the third wave of grace, right? Which is that, uh, so there's the first wave of grace, which is salvation, the second wave of grace, which is sanctification, and a third wave of grace, which is, uh, baptism by the Holy Spirit, which would be, that's for Pentecostals, that is specifically speaking in tongues for, uh, light Pentecostals, a gay charismatics.

That's like a, the, uh, the moment when you receive a spiritual gift. And charismatics would say that spiritual gifts are distinct from what you would probably be describing as a skill. Mm-hmm. Um, a skill or a, uh, a talent or, uh, The potential. I don't know. Right, right. Like, uh, for instance, from a charismatic perspective, I would've been a skilled trumpet player, but my spiritual gift would not be trumpet playing.

Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. Um, I also, like from a, uh, I, when it comes to those lists, those spiritual gifts, gifts lists, I've always just assumed that they were just non exhaustive. I, I always assumed that if there was something, anything that proclaims the gospel and advances the kingdom, that is not necessarily a natural proclivity of an individual is a spiritual gift, if that makes sense.

That's how I've always seen those. Like Paul would've been writing like, oh yeah, you know, prophecy teaching, blah, blah, blah, et cetera, et cetera. If he, if he was the writing in, in 2023 or whatever, gotcha. You know, 

Yeah. And I, I think just to add to that, um, the idea of the question is an important one because when we get into tongues, specifically that topic, um, is this something that is just thrust upon us, uh, by the Holy Spirit mm-hmm.

And we get it? Or is this something that is a natural thing that everybody has, that they can improve upon? So for instance, if Yeah, if I have the gift of teaching, that's a, I mean, I've known from little, when I was little, I loved getting up in front of groups and presenting information in different, various formats.

Um, a lot of people that'll send them to the grave, I mean, that's literally the thing they don't want to do. Um, just short of death. And so I can get better at teaching. Okay. It's one of those things, I went to school to become a teacher. I learned how to, you know, organize my thoughts better, so, If spiritual gifting for me is teaching, that is a type of gift that can, I can improve upon.

But then on the flip side of that argument, you have these supernatural gifts that seem to appear at once and are fully realized. And a lot of people go into like an Acts chapter two thing, you know, no indication that the apostles or those people that spoke in tongues in Acts two had practiced beforehand, or, uh, it seems like this is a brand new thing and it was fully realized they did it really well.

Uh, in other words. Mm-hmm. So, uh, that's sort of the rub of where does speaking in tongues fall into that discussion? Is it something you can improve upon? The continuation, uh, will define ideas later a little bit more, but the continuation would say, you know, you need to practice this skill and get better at it.

And the cessationist would say, no, this is something that is given and fully realized within scripture. Yeah, yeah. Kind of like the force. Yeah. 

Okay. In 

what way? Because like, joke, is that what you Skywalker went to Yoda and learned a lot more, right? So Yeah, 

yeah. True. Exactly.

So explain, uh, so because tongues is the big dog, right? Nobody gives a crap if you are a good teacher. They just wanna know if you could, you know, uh, uh, so, uh, Well, it's 

definitely the most, uh, weird. Yeah. Yeah. Weird. Yeah. I think you called it divisive on one of, like, when you were talking about it on one of the podcasts.

Yep. Um, but just one of like, kind of the most, uh, controversial out there. Yeah. Yeah. The one that's hardest for people to understand 

For sure. Yeah. Cuz the, you have a gift of hospitality that just means you clean your house before people show up miracles. 

You can't really argue with it if it's like, dang, that was weird, but it happened.

Tongues is just kinda like, are you just babbling? Yeah. What are you doing now? It's 

the most Yeah. Out there. 

So explain, uh, explain tongues. 

Explain tongues. Well, 

I have one question before though. Oh, please, please. Cause I mean, no, just muscle in your body. No, I, I'm curious what. Uh, cuz you have, uh, quite a few podcast episodes that talk about this, but you're, I mean, you're pretty invested in this topic.

Yeah. So what attracted you to, like, what brought you to a point of like really studying it and, uh, giving it a lot of energy 

Yeah. To explore? Yeah. And I think that's important because, uh, to have me on an, as an expert on speaking in tongues is not gonna fit a lot of people's definition of what an expert is on this topic.

I, I did not grow up charismatic. Uh, I have never associated with the modern manifestation of this gift the way it's been defined within our modern times. I also didn't necessarily grow up in a cessationist camp, uh, the more conservative side that would say, uh, the, the gift of tongues is not for today and God doesn't use it anymore.

Those are kind of the two pendulum swings. Um, I find myself in that kind of middle ground. Uh, we were talking before we started recording that Wayne Gru has come out with a systematic theology several years ago, but in that he kind of gave three, three groupings. Uh, the continuation, the ones that think that the gift has continued into our time.

The cessationists, the ones that think it ceased at a certain point and isn't at use today. And then the, his third category is open, but cautious, which, uh, I love that. Yeah, because it's just that nebulous middle ground where you're not quite sure. And so, yeah, and, and I think unless you fall into one of the two pendulum swings, uh, you're probably in that open, but cautious, varying levels of cautiousness.

And that's how I would describe myself is, uh, That. But more than anything, how is it that I got into this? Um, I'm a Bible guy, so when I, like on the topic of rest that we talked about last time, when I started seeing some discrepancies between modern day practices and what the Bible seems to be saying about this, I just dig down and go down rabbit holes until I try and figure something else out.

And so that's what I did on this. Uh, I had a big whiteboard when I was a pastor and I had everything outlined on the whiteboard and people would come in and, um, quickly leave. It was my way of a pastor to get rid of people. Hey, do you wanna talking about speaking in tongues? I'm really excited about it.

Yeah. Yeah. I, I can relate to that. I mean, I didn't grow up in a charismatic, uh, church, although there was a char, a distinctively charismatic wing that was growing. Uh, by the time I was a teenager. Um, so everyone, so anytime somebody would show up, I grew up in the Salvation Army. Um, and so anytime somebody would show up and then start speaking in tongues, it was kinda like, ooh, like, ooh, what are you doing?

Like, uh, kind of a strange thing. But I did go to a charismatic seminary, which, uh, I, ironically, I only had one charismatic professor and it was always an argument, like, ev every class was like, well, let's just sit and dwell on this, uh, tongues thing because it seems very bizarre. Uh, was that me? Yeah.

Mm-hmm. 

Yeah. Hugging, you're hugging your 

cord. Oh, sorry. It's, um, the, uh, in the kind of the, cuz it is, it is very strange. And I think when you see. It's strange that it only happens during church. I'll say that. That's how I, so I'm in that cautious open, but cautious. Like, oh, if the Holy Spirit was moving.

It's very strange that it only happens at certain moments during the cer during weeks. Now there are people who say, I pray in tongues or whatever, but they're by and large, like the vast majority of tongues, things that I've experienced have happened in a very short window of a week that takes place. So it makes me 

cautious.

Very cautious about it. Yeah. Yeah. So, 

yeah, and I've always had that, once I, once I learned what it was, I thought I really hung onto the, in that it should also have someone able to interpret piece of that. And so that's always been my sticking point of. I'm maybe considering myself open, but cautious, but very much in the, if someone's not telling me what they're saying, I don't buy it.

Yeah. You know, like, that's for sure how I've understood it for the last 15 years since I've been in like a non-Catholic in, 

in situation, in, in a non joking, but not a joking way. But you can run a serious racket with that, right? Like if you're, if you're visiting churches and 

you know, you, you're speaking in tongues, but 

someone's interpreting coming, coming separate, you know?

But like that's a hundred percent I'm sure has happened in the past. I don't, I mean, I haven't looked up, you know, stories of it, but it can't not have happened. 

Well, yeah. Have, yeah. I mean, people do. Have you ever heard of Jesse Lanis, 

uh, speaking in tongues, uh, just to get, let's just talk about what it looks like in the New Testament and where people find it.

Is that a good place to start? Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. So, Arum in his, again, 2004 systematic theology gives a decent definition and it's short, so I'll just read it. We may define this gift as follows. He says, speaking in tongues is prayer or praise, spoken in syllables, not understood by the speaker.

That's a very general, very general, yeah. And, and that incorporates the reason I like his definition there is it incorporates several of the different places within the New Testament, uh, where speaking in tongues is, is, uh, discussed and it brings in some aspects of all of those. Um, so yeah. Uh, first, uh, if we go into the gospels, there's a brief mention of speaking in tongues in Mark at the ending of Mark, mark 1614 through 18.

Um, Problem with the ending of Mark, if you're not familiar, is it's just a hodgepodge. Uh, from a textual standpoint, it's really hard to go back into the text, uh, the original, uh, documents that we have that have survived and find any coherence that the ending of Mark was actually a part of the original.

So, um, yeah, so there's the textual problem with the ending of Mark. There's also the theological problem of, uh, the directive to pick up deadly snakes and drink poison. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And most people, most people forget about the snakes and the poison part, and they really clinging to this speaking in tongues because it says, you know, this will be one of the things that shows up, uh, when people 

believe, unless you're in the hills of Tennessee, they 

get it.

They, yeah, some denominations really lean in there. Yeah. Yep. So, uh, that's really all the gospels have to say about the topic outwardly, uh, intrinsically, you know, speaking in tongues mentioned. And then, you know, you've got the book of Acts, the very well known Acts chapter two, the Day of Pentecost.

There's some people then that when we skip to Acts chapter eight, um mm-hmm. They think that when the Samaritans come to faith and show some external signs, it doesn't say specifically speaking in tongues, but a lot of people think speaking in tongues may have been one of those signs that was, uh, showing itself in Acts chapter eight.

So that's kind of a nebulous passage. And you've got, yeah, Cornelius in chapter 10 of Acts, uh, the Gentiles. Mm-hmm. And then you've got these weird John the Baptist disciples in Ephesus in Acts chapter 19. So, yeah. For such a controversial topic, there's really only three spots in acts where speaking in tongues is outrightly mentioned, uh, which isn't a lot.

Yeah. And then the only other spot is first Corinthians, uh, chapters 12 through 14, that one corrective letter that Paul wrote to the church in Corinth where they weren't Yeah. Weren't doing things right. And he was putting parameters around, um, their behavior. So, 

yeah. Yeah. It's, uh, I, I've always, when I, it's, it's a hard topic to, uh, because the United States, I always say if there's one religious tradition that the United or Christian tradition that the United States really, uh, that is distinctively a United States thing, it's Pentecostalism, you know, it's like, that's like the, the United States tradition.

Uh, you know, cuz you could look at Wesleyan denominations, you could look at anything else that comes out of somewhere else in the United States. Pentecostalism, that's it. It's that, uh, extra, uh, it comes from Wesley, but it's like super holiness revivalistic, uh, uh, charismatic version of Christianity that the United States has held onto and is, it's very prominent.

I mean, uh, there's no, uh, uh, it's, it's the only globe, not the only, but the fastest growing global, uh, expression of Christianity is some version of charismatic Christianity. And so that brings up, I think a lot in terms of only, and the reason why I think it's such a big deal is only because. There is an emphasis on that, that third wave of grace that, oh, you're not actually a saved follower of Jesus unless you express Now it's hardcore Pentecostalism.

But unless you express that speaking in tongues, that movement of the spirit, which can only be manifest through speaking of tongues, which is what many would would argue from that camp. Um, and so I think it brings a, there's almost a, a different heaviness there in terms of, rather than the other spiritual gifts, like, oh, you know, you bake cookies for people when they come over to your house or whatever.

You know, like, yeah. Like there's a, it's a, there's a different, uh, weight weightiness to it. 

Yeah. It, it, it's a sexy gift. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, it shows up and everybody stops everything they're doing. Right. I mean, that's kind of the. Thing. Uh, when I teach that's not the case. People just continue looking at their phones, so Yeah.

Yeah. So part of the rub with this gift and part of the rub I have, um, as an expert is I think our modern day discussion is completely off track. Um, I'm, I'm not falling into a cessationist camp. I think the way they're looking at the gift is incorrect. And I'm not falling into, uh, continuation as camp because I think we've said the gift is different than what the Bible is saying the gift is.

And yeah. And I think our modern discussion has grown out of what you were just talking about, that adoption by, uh, the continuation is Camp Pentecostals charismatics, um, over the last a hundred, 120 years, um, that this has actually been taking place within our culture. As, as they began to develop their theology of what speaking in tongues is, there was a natural pendulum swing from the more conservative side of the church that said, no, it's not that, it's this.

And that kind of created a false dichotomy that has, um, that has taken over the conversation about what tongues is. It's all about these false dichotomies, these two options that the two extremes are presenting. And yeah, in the process of that last 120 years, what's really fallen into the wayside is serious study of what the biblical text actually says is going on.

So that's, that's really my thing is I've got kind of a unique. Uh, I haven't found anybody else with the reading that I have, but I am just trying Yeah. To remove myself from the passion and the emotions of the modern conversation and just asking the question what would make most sense coming out of the text.

Yeah. 

So, uh, let's just dive in. What's your, uh, understanding of it? 

Yeah, so a lot of times, again, this conversation is, um, only about speaking in tongues and there's nobody asking the question, what's the biblical theology going on behind that event that we see in the New Testament? Is there any antecedent, anything that came before that would mm-hmm.

This would tie into, and I think this is, yeah. What caught your attention last time we were talking mm-hmm. Is this traces all the way back to the Garden of Eden. And specifically what the rebellion in the Garden of Eden ended up being is, uh, Genesis chapter 11, that Tower of Babbel or Babel story. And if, and just logically, um, hang with me here in the Tower of Babbel, the, the story is that there was one language being used throughout all of creation.

Yeah. And men started building Azero a, a sacred space temple, typed tower to control where God's sacred space was on the earth. Mm-hmm. And God said, Nope, that's not the order and function that I have brought to the table. So I'm going to confuse that process and spread people out the, I mean, the original mandate was to fill the earth.

And what the Tower of Babel was doing was everybody was congregating in one spot and not doing what God, uh, had set up. So, um, yeah, in that Tower story, one language became a multiple, a multitude of languages that then led to confusion. Mm-hmm. Now, with that set up, if you go into Acts chapter two, the story is that you've got people from a lot of different places and the connotation there is that they all speak, uh, different languages.

And so it's gonna be hard to, harder to communicate is the underlying. Um, but that's just an invitation to think back to the Tower of Babbel. And you've got all these different languages all of a sudden being understood. Uh, that confusion of language that was set up at the tower is at least temporarily in this episode, sort of.

Put on hold, and God seems to be attracting attention to something that he's doing there. So, 

yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It, it's really inter, I love it when, uh, because there is a, uh, uh, proclivity specifically for modern American or westernized evangelical bent Christians to disassociate the Old Testament from the new.

Yeah. And the more and more you dive in, the more you're like, actually, when Jesus says he came to fulfill the law, the prophets fulfill the Old Testament. There's so much that takes place in the gospels and the, and in the letters that express the fulfillment of the questions that one would have after reading the Old Testament.

Like, okay, why did God separate everybody at the Tower of Babel incident? Like, why, why is that? Why did they, why did, why did that happen? Well, in order for it to be pointed towards a reconvening or, or recon congregation of the world under the real headship of 

Christ. Yeah. Yep. And so, a, as we dive into the New Testament, and we look at speaking in tongues as a phenomenon or a spiritual gift mm-hmm.

There's hardly anybody in the conversation tr asking the question, why is this showing up? Why is this weird thing showing up here? And what is it a, what part of the story is it a continuation of, I mean, Mm-hmm. Because if we don't understand the context of the spiritual gift, then we can give it any sort of meaning.

Meaning that we want to. And it's when that happens that, uh, abuses start coming in because we can make it what we want it to be instead of what it Yeah. Was originally. So Acts chapter two is kind of the first place it shows up. Um, I think most people are familiar with the story, but in general you've got, um, people congregating, I believe it's at the temple.

Um, I believe the house that is spoken of in ACT chapter two is not the upper room where they were staying. I think, uh, old Testament precedent and even New Testament gospels show that they referred to the Temple of God as the house that's, uh, well established. So I think the house that they were in on the day of Pentecost, which is where they would've been anyway, uh, it's a national in gathering feast and everybody was going to the temple anyway.

I think, um, mm-hmm. That's where, uh, these disciples stood up in a large crowd and tongues of fire. It says, um, and uh, the sound of a wind, but not wind. It wasn't an actual wind, it was the sound of a wind, which interesting because wind and fire show up at temple scenarios or sacred space scenarios throughout the Old Testament.

So the fact that fire and wind show up in this circumstance is just predictable. Um, and yeah, you understand that if you follow the themes, but these tongues of fire, and the way I like to picture it is you had sacred space, uh, at the temple and there was a brazen altar of fire, and that was the first thing that greeted you as you walked into the temple space.

And I like to picture Yeah. Thematically, it's that fire that has left the desolate temple that Jesus is condemning throughout the gospels and splitting itself and placing itself on God's new sacred space is new temple. Yeah. And yeah, that's clear in Paul's theology that it's not us as individuals that are the temple.

It's not my physical body that's the temple that's often misunderstood, but it's the collective group of believers. True believers, yeah. Throughout the world. That is the temple of God. Singular. Yeah. One temple. Lots of people. So, um, you've, yeah. And, and the result of that happening, this transition between old and new covenants, the transition caused those people, and I believe it was just the 12, um, not the 120.

Uh, cuz that's a debate, uh, in the text. Yeah. Uh, it caused the 12 to stand up and speak in tongues with new tongues and Yeah. That word tongues mm-hmm. Can be understood as languages, uh, in the original context, in the original Greek. So, uh, there's a huge debate as to, uh, well, actually Acts two, there's no debate.

Both sides agree. Yeah. That what happened on that day was that those who spoke in tongues spoke known human languages that they had never studied before. So they were languages Yeah. That were known to men, but not studied by those who spoke them. And that that was the spiritual gift given. In Acts chapter two, the ability to speak known languages, and in turn they come to that because the people in the crowd say, we hear them speaking our native tongues.

Or native languages. 

Yeah, and I think it, even in, in Paul's, uh, list, uh, the interpretation of tongues, uh, I could, I would probably, I'd bet, uh, my house on it, probably, maybe not, I don't know. Is that really what that means, is the understanding of what is being said. So if so, rather than like, should have bought a Honda is going over here and this guy's like, well, Jesus loves you.

That's the interpretation of it. In reality, it's probably more the language. Uh, I haven't looked at it, so I'm not gonna bet my house on it. But the, I bet you the language is more, it's actually understandable. It's actually understood by, maybe there's somebody who has shown up to a Corinthian house church thing that doesn't speak, you know, coin a Greek or whatever else is being spoken at that time and.

They are understanding the message of the gospel. 

Yeah. So maybe, I don't know. Well, in Acts two, uh, the way the modern conversation goes is because everything being spoken on that day were known human languages, that the gift of interpretation wasn't given. It wasn't needed because everybody in the crowd Yeah.

Already spoke those languages. And so God didn't need to give any type of interpretation gift. They were just hearing Yeah. Known languages, which goes totally against what First Corinthians says. Cause yeah. First Corinthians 12 through 14 specifically says, when this gift is given and people are gathered together, believers are gathered together in a church service, that the gift of interpretation will always be given.

And so, yeah, just from the get-go, the modern conversation doesn't flow from the text at all because everybody assumes it's modern or known languages being spoken in Acts two, and everyone agrees that the gift of interpretation wasn't given, and that flies directly in the face of Paul's instruction on this gift.

I mean, that was a church service that day. The, it was the, yeah. First one, uh, it was the birth of the church. Yeah. There at Pentecost. So. So Jesse and Jen, you're really quiet. I want to try and, uh, get your opinions and, uh, get you involved in the convo. What thoughts or questions are coming up? Or 

you look like you're about to want to No, I'm just, well, it's kind of funny cuz I was, uh, chat JP Ting.

Um, so this is not, it's just the quickest way to get some sort of answer. Um, instead of Googling, uh, cuz I, before you had thrown that all there, instead of looking to a human, well, I'm going to right now, but like I was, I was kind of, uh, checking to see if there's any studies that had come up at any given point on the past.

Uh, you know, recordings or anything like languages of people speaking in tongues and any kind of, uh, like saying like, oh, it's a recognized language of this or that, or maybe there's some kind of consistent overflow between certain people and like, oh, I recognize that word from here and here, and like any of that kind of stuff.

Um, it quickly came up with a, like a, someone named William Samran in the 1960s did a, uh, study on it, but the, it was not found to be an actual pattern of language, uh, versus it was just more like, uh, noises of a known assumed patterns that you hear and pick up, but nothing like actively seeming to cross over, like, or find this made sense here and here and, you know, stuff like that.

But I think what you were saying it made sense, uh, probably the, it's the most sensical thing to me. But like, where does it jump into the next stage of saying angelic language? Angel? Yeah, angelic language in actual like non, non known languages. And what's the point of that and why, why would it actually be happening?

I get like needing, like I a hundred percent fall into the, the, the, um, belief that biblically it says that you need a, an interpreter in those circumstances. But I guess the other question is like, what is the point? How do you know? How do you, which obviously is always the, the big caveat there, but Yeah.

You know, how do you know? Um, but like to know those situations. I have not grown up in that sort of church though. My parents probably at least. Kind of have experienced with that somehow. You know, I don't know. Um, but it's just, it's nothing that I've fully experienced other than hearing maybe like, uh, a pastor having like a prayer under his breath in, uh, in that way, you know?

Like, I haven't seen it happen and I don't think I would fully buy into it. You know, I, it just, it just seems, sorry, my brain is everywhere. I'm very a d d and I, like, I have a hard time like Yeah. Controlling every 

thought that comes well, and herein lies. Yeah. I don't know. Herein lies the confusion because, uh, our modern discussion doesn't really define well what we're talking about, because everybody agrees in Acts two.

Yeah. Those are known languages being spoken and no gift of interpretation. But then you've got this whole Pentecostal charismatic movement, the continuation of movement that goes to. First Corinthians 12 through 14, and I think they rightly conclude that what Paul is talking about seems to be some sort of unknown language, like when mm-hmm.

The person speaks it. Nobody understands the guy, the person speaking doesn't understand, and those in the audience don't understand. And that's why you have to have the gift of interpretation. So the charismatics have gone to 12 through 14 of First Corinthians, and they say, see, this is an angelic language.

This is the tongues of men and of angels. So we can speak angelic tongues. And in a pendulum swing reaction to that understanding, the more conservative side of evangelicalism has said, no, it's only one thing. It's only known languages. And that gift is no longer available. And so you've got these two sides arguing against each other, one trying to shut down the show.

And one, trying to not only continue it, but expand it into this is not just something that happens in a church service, uh, but this can happen in your own prayer closet because Paul says if there's no interpretation being given in a church service, go home, leave and go do that somewhere else. Yeah. And I think that's a corrective, that's a like, get outta church, because that's not God doing it.

I mean, because God always gives an interpretation when that gift of tongues is given. I mean, it's like a pair. Yeah. And so I think 

in a, in a tangible que sorry. Like Yeah. In a tangible way. If you experience that, what should the response be like if there's no true person to interpret? That should, in a sense of leadership, stand up and be like, let's leave this person out and talk to them outside.

Yeah. You know, what's the response to that? Because like, I think that's just in a tangible way. Like, I don't know what I would do, you know? Yeah. Other than be like, uh, okay guys, uh, let's keep going. You know, like, ignore it. 

Well, uh, and this is, this is funny because, uh, I tell this in one of my episodes. Uh, the, the trigger warning for speaking in tongues for me goes back to my ordination interview because I was, uh, one of the questions, uh, so I'm, it's me and my wife and we're sitting in front of, you know, 12 to 14, uh, Nazarene pastors and in the Nazarene Church, they haven't forbidden tongues, but they certainly don't encourage it very much.

Uh, so it's kind of this weird middle ground. And one of the opening questions in my ordination interview was, what have you been studying lately? And I was, I was knee deep. I was two months into studying the gift of tongues. My whole whiteboard was full. And so I, I, I paused for a second because I know I was opening, you know, just an incredibly large can of worms.

And I said, well, you know, I've been studying gift of tongues and I think I found something that's, you know, pretty unique. And so for the next hour, all the questions were about speaking in tongues. And the one that you just asked came up, what would you do if you were preaching and somebody did this? Um, and my answer was, I think that if that presents itself, based on my understanding, I need to ask if there's anybody in the audience that has understood this specifically in their known native tongue.

And if you are hearing that person speak and you're understanding it like they're speaking your native tongue, I'd like to hear from you. Otherwise, I'm not interested in kind of a general idea of what they might be saying. Uh, the charismatics or the continuation is make that distinction that, uh, interpretation is not translation.

They say that often because what they'll have is somebody, yeah, going off for three or four minutes and then somebody else stand up and say, oh, he says be holy. You know, two words. And, and so they have to, they've had to make the distinction that interpretation is not translation. In other words, you can have somebody speak in a tongue for three minutes and the interpretation could be you need to be holy.

And that happens all the time. Uh, which, yeah, which I don't think, I think that's a, uh, I think that's a made up. Distinction. Um, I think what the Bible shows is throughout, not just in the New Testament phenomena of it, but throughout. Whenever God speaks a message that needs to get to people, he gives somebody the ability to understand specifics.

I mean, it's like the handwriting on the wall. Nobody in the party knew, but one person understood. Exactly. And we find that everywhere we find specific understanding when God speaks and moves, and somehow we've gotten to a part, a place where it's this nebulous understanding that's what the gift of inter nobody has defined the gift of interpretation.

Very well. 

So in your, um, opinion, uh, like, again, going back to my, my example, uh, Somebody praying in tongues or seemingly Yeah. In like in a quiet manner themselves. Is there any backing to that or reason to that? You know, because I've, I think I've, like I said, I've experienced that more than anything if at, if at all, you know, but it's just like I, again, that always struck me as like, what's, why are you doing that?

Like, just, I mean, nobody's sitting there like, oh, this person's praying this and, you know, whatever. And like whispering it back, but like, what's the point of that and is there any grounds to it, you know, that I just don't know enough about it to 

know. Yeah. So, um, within the continuation of camp, you've got this minority that says you can't be a Christian until you've spoken in tongues.

Mm-hmm. Um, that's a minority. Um, and yeah, it is a minority that's, uh, very vocal and so they kind of taint the waters that way. The majority of continuation say that the Holy Spirit will give the gift of known languages to just a few people. But first Corinthians 12 through 14, they believe and other, uh, handpicked verses throughout scriptures, they've interpreted as saying there's this other opportunity to use a personal prayer language.

When Paul says, don't speak in the church, go home. Um, they think that's a directive to actually go home and practice this thing. Um, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I don't, I don't believe that's what the scripture is saying, but that's the way they've interpreted it. So, uh, the larger majority within continuation of camp would say that, you know, the, the prayer.

Uh, where the spirit is, you know, the groaning of the spirit within us where we don't have words to say the spirit takes us over and speaks through us. That's kind of continuation as camp and it's edifying to the believer. That's first Corinthians 12 through 14. Paul says, the person who speaks in a tongue is edified through that process because they're being used by God.

And so they have taken that as we should practice this as much as we possibly can, and you should be speaking in tongues every day, and you're in charge of when that happens. You can make it happen right now. Go ahead and practice and here's how you do that. And that's all born out of, again, a pendulum swing that has gone one way and is just trying to expand the practice into stuff that we don't see biblically.

So in the assumption of what we talked about earlier is saying that these are are something that you could and should hone in on and practice. That's the assumption. If you have these giftings, you should practice them. How do you even start practicing? Yeah. Well, like that's like the other thing in my head is saying like, I probably just pure idiocy in my, or just the fact that that's not my gifting.

Um, like how do you, how do you practice that? Yeah. Like other than just be like, yeah, like I've just say like making up stuff. Like how do you 

Yeah. I, all I can say is what I've heard other people say because I listened to a ton of podcasts on, from both camps. Right. And, uh, the instruction that is often given, um, it's, it's at a youth camp.

We're down at an altar in front of the church and you need to receive this. You haven't spoken in tongues yet. There's a lot of pressure. Just start talking. God will take over. And from people in my immediate family sharing their experience, having grown up in that situation, you'll say just about anything to get through to the end of the service.

Mm-hmm. And yeah. And then once you've done it and people give you positive reinforcement, oh, that's what happened. You spoke in tongues, you're thinking in the back of your head. Well, I was just, oh, I was just making that up. But if that's what you say and then you continue, and that's just the culture that has been born again, I think totally divorced from a careful study of scripture on the topic.

Yeah. Um, mm-hmm. I think that, um, you, the, again, the modern conversation that we're having, both sides, I'm not picking on one side or the other here. Uh, the cessationists are ignoring the text as well, because all they want Yeah. To have happen is for this thing to go away. What's happening currently. Mm-hmm.

And the continuation is all they want to do is encourage people to explore this gift and that it will edify them in the process. And it's one of the ways we grow deeper in our relationship with God. I think, and I wanna be careful here because, you know these two extremes. I just did an episode in my podcast on false dichotomies that we create within religion.

We've, we've kind of painted speaking in tongues into two camps, and you gotta choose one or the other. And I think that, um, that's a dangerous thing because mm-hmm. I, I don't think either camp is seeing this correctly. And so you're being asked Yeah. To pick between two things that don't follow the text and that's just a dangerous thing.

We do that really well within churches. Yeah. Unfortunately. Yeah. Yeah. 

Well, yeah, that's one of the things that, like what I, when I think about this, I think about how few denominations embrace speaking in tongues fully. Um, like I just really find myself thinking like, if this is a, if, if this is a gift that God can give us, why does it really only happen in like three types, like charismatic churches, right?

Like, there's so few. And part of that is obviously our modern take on it. Like if you did that in our church, everyone would stop what they were doing and stare at you like what's happening. But in the same standpoint, if it, if it is God, you know, giving that to us, it, you would think it would just happen.

But then like Evan said, why it's almost always at a church service that this is happening, right? Like, it's not like Jesse would just start talking and speaking in tongues in the middle of our podcast episode, right? Like that would be. We should, we should do that. I would imagine though that even like a charismatic believer would think that was strange.

Yeah. Like in the middle of a conversation, right? Like it's outside of the parameters that they've put on what they think speaking in tongues should look like. Um, and so I think that that's where I struggle the most with it. Like, I'm not saying I don't believe it at all, but I am saying I don't understand how we've gotten to the point of saying this is a gift from God.

And when that happens, someone should be there to interpret it. Or like what you're saying with the, um, where everyone can just understand like it's a native tongue to everyone. Do we just not need that anymore because our ways of communicating are effective enough that we are able to. The gospel via interpreters or chat g PT 

or whatever.

Exactly. Um, Google 

Translate. And so is it our, so is it that our knowledge has grown to the point where that gift is not as necessary? Yes. Does that make sense? Does that make sense what I'm saying? Like, because to me, I think, well, if this is, uh, relevant to us today, I don't, I don't get why only like certain denomination, which that's true of a lot of things that the church does.

Yeah. I would say like, not everyone takes communion. Not everyone, like there's a lot of things that we don't, not everyone does the same, but that's kind of always been my hold up. Like I had a, an ex-boyfriend whose church. They just, people would just speak in tongues in the middle of a service, but it's like 20 people doing it with no one interpreting 

what, including what's happening.

Kelly, right. That boyfriend. 

Yeah. Yes. I don't know if he's spoken in tongues or Kelly, but, um, but, but again, like very much like even in prayer or Yeah. You know, like very, very much. Um, just, yeah. So chaos and charismatic kind of go hand in hand for me. Yeah. So, so lots 

of chaos. A couple things to clarify, again, coming to the defense of those in the continuation is camp, the way they're viewing this is that the gift of tongues given supernaturally to somebody, the gift of speaking known languages, in other words, is a gift that is only given to some people.

And when we go into 12 through 14 of First Corinthians, they say that's what Paul is talking about in general. But when Paul says you go home and practice that, Um, and that Paul says, I speak in tongues more than any of you, right? Which means he had done this, whatever it is. Um mm-hmm. They say that really the prohibition of only needing an interpreter is when the whole assembly is being addressed.

So if I'm up front on stage in a church service and I'm speaking in tongues, or somebody in the congregation speaks in tongues and the whole congregation is addressed, that's when an interpreter is needed. This is the continuation is mindset. But yeah, if I'm just speaking my own personal prayer language to myself in the pew, other people may be hearing it, but no interpretation is needed in that case.

And what that has just borne into is just utter chaos in some circumstances. Where everybody is encouraged to speak their own personal prayer language at one time, and mm-hmm. It's just really interesting that you can come up with a defense that supports that practice out of a passage that is trying to correct the Corinthian church who is abusing this practice and, yeah.

Yeah. L let me get, if you would, let me just get into a couple questions in Acts chapter two that kinda led me down a different road. Uh, these are questions Yeah. That nobody's, uh, that the texts present that nobody's really speaking to. And I think it's the text showing us that the two views of what the options that we've been given to choose from in modern day.

It's not what the text is talking about. So, uh, in Acts chapter two, you've got, in my opinion, you've got the 12 apostles. At the temple on the day of Pentecost, a Jewish in gathering feast, they get up in the crowd. It says, are people from, and I think it names 13 different locations, and the connotation is that they would all be speaking different native tongues.

The connotation there though, is that nobody would understand what's going on or being said unless this specific gift was given, because they all speak different languages. The problem with that is, here's the problem that nobody's talking about. When Peter gets up after the Tongues episode, he addresses the whole crowd.

Yeah. He's addressing the whole crowd speaking Greek, a common language that everybody shared, so mm-hmm. The gift of tongues, if it is known languages. It's not needed on the day of Pentecost for understanding of what's being said, because everybody that spoke in tongues also spoke the common language of Greek.

Mm-hmm. So, and, and Peter does that, he, he prophesies, he gives, uh, a whole sermon after this tongues event. And he's speaking one language. It's, it's Greek. I mean, the text doesn't say it, but that's the understood assumption. So what is it? Yeah. The other problem that the text has is most of the people that talk about X two stop in verse 12.

And it's because you've got people, um, acts two, uh, they all continued in amazement and with great perplexity saying to one another. What does this mean? Because they're understanding the people up front as if they're speaking in their own native tongue. But others, verse 13 is never really dealt with very well, but others, others in the same crowd.

And there's two different ways you can say others. In Greek, it's either others of the same type or others of a different sort. And the Greek word here that Luke chose is, but others of a different type were mocking and saying, these guys are all drunk. Yeah. So here's the question that really spurred me down the rabbit hole is if I've got people in this crowd, imagine a church service where you've got people gathering in pews, okay, that wasn't the setting.

But just imagine. And imagine in that church service you've got some people that are true believers in God and some people that are not. It's not like there's a line drawn down the middle and all the non-believers are on one side and all the true believers on the other, we don't do that. Yeah. Now we, they wouldn't have done it then.

Yeah. All these people from these 13 different places, they're all intermixed. People get up and speak in tongues. The devout men in the crowd, that's how they're described. Uh, early on in this process, the devout men in the crowd, the God-fearing men, the people that are true believers, in other words, hear them speaking as if they're speaking in their own native tongue, but others of a different type.

What's different than the devout men in the crowd? Not devout. So you've got unbelievers and believers in this crowd on the day of Pentecost. True believers in God. They're all probably Jewish or mostly, but you've got true believers and un believers in the crowd intermixed. And if they're speaking known languages, why is there a different group that thinks they're drunk?

Yeah, I mean, And I'm asking this to the right people because you drink beer on your podcast when, when somebody has had a few too many, they slur their speech. They don't make coherent sense. There are indications that cause us to think that someone has had too much alcohol. But if I'm going downtown and I hear somebody speaking in, uh, having a conversation in a language that I don't know, my conclusion is not, oh, those people, those people are drunk.

No, they just speak Spanish or they just speak French. And yeah, I can tell that they're talking a different language. My conclusion isn't that they're drunk. So why such a different response in verse 13 of chapter two from others different than the devout people in the crowd. You got a dual response.

Some people are understanding, some people are not. The only answer to that question that I've been able to come up with is that the people speaking in tongues that day were not speaking known languages. There's no way they could have been, or you wouldn't have the response in verse 13. Yeah. And that just begs the question, well, what, what was happening?

And mm-hmm. I have come to the conclusion, and again, this is my soapbox, so here we go. Um, I've come to the conclusion that within the theme of this whole thing in the biblical context, God took a, a language away at Babbel that everybody understood it was a language that not only humanity used, but also the spiritual realm used as well.

When God was walking in the garden with Adam and Eve, he would've been using a language and it would've been the one that they used. God take that language away. I call it the alpha language and yeah. Uh, I believe that the gift of speaking in tongues is the God-given ability to speak an unknown language.

Uh, the, if I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, I think that's talking about the specific alpha language, the one that was used Yeah. Of men and of angels. And it's the God-given ability to speak that unknown language that sounds angelic, but also it's paired with the gift of interpretation, which is the specific ability of people to hear somebody speaking that language and understand it in their native tongue.

Yeah. That's the only explanation that answers the problem of verse 13 in Acts chapter two. Yeah. 

Yeah. Yeah. Cuz you hear stories of people going to, I don't know, Africa, south America, Asia, uh, and you hear the stories of, oh, we, you know, I was speaking this, but they understood it in their own, their own tongue.

It also, the thing, uh, this, this kind of pops into my head in terms of kind of the quote unquote gift of speaking in tongues is I feel like the apostles in Acts two would not have known that they were speaking in something else, but they would've assumed that they were speaking in Greek or whatever. Oh, yes.

Does that make sense? And so when we speak in tongues in church today, there's not a chance that somebody's not like, Oh yeah. I spoke like, like I feel like it would be an unaware 

gift. Mm-hmm. Yes. So, uh, Paul in Corinthians does say, the one who speaks in a tongue does not know what he's saying. So Yeah, that is true.

And the assumption in our modern day conversations is they don't know it because it's a known human language they've never studied. Yeah. That's our assumption. Uh, it could very well be though, that this isn't a, this is a language like Paul says, that no one understands. Nobody understands it. It, and that's, that's the way first Corinthians presents it.

And that would make sense. Mm-hmm. If it was a language that God was giving, bringing out of the past. Right. So again, yeah. Theologically speaking, what's going on in the big picture? Man has rebelled God confused language at one point because the one language that God had given them. Was contributing to their rebellion.

So in an attempt to squelch the rebellion, God took that language away and confused language here in Acts or in the New Testament or modern day, however you want to view that, God gives us a glimpse not only to the past when there was a time in the garden, when everybody was on the same page, working towards the same goal, but also a preview of a time in the future.

So you go to the end of Revelation and you've got this picture of a city with gates, but the gates are never closed. That's because there's no enemies. Mm-hmm. And yeah. Um, I gotta believe that for eternity, if heaven is a real thing right, for eternity, we're not gonna be having to use Google Translate to understand each other.

Yeah. I think we're gonna be speaking one language for eternity, if that's. If that's the way this whole thing plays out, the way the Bible, I think suggests it does, uh, it would make sense that you got these bookends on either end where one language is used, and then the speaking in tongues becomes this little glimpse into the perfect world in the past and the one in the future that is promised.

Mm. And in that case, yeah. Dang, I'm, I'm all for that. That's great. Yeah. 

And how weird. Yeah, I mean it's, yeah. I mean it's the redemption of all things, which would include language. Right? 

Totally. It, yeah. Yeah. The new creation is not just us being new, but it's, it's everything, um, the way it was originally meant to function.

Yeah. Without rebellion against it. 

Um, I do have something I meant to look up earlier. Yeah. Uh, that I just, it, it drop, uh, dropped in my head. Um, it's, I, I put this question out that we were talking about this on Instagram. And, uh, I forgot to look if there's any responses. Um, we had two responses actually.

One was a video response that I'll play here in a second. Um, so if this goes weird, I will edit it. But, um, but, uh, the first one somebody wrote back, I, cuz uh, I had mentioned we're be talking in, uh, about talking in tongues. She said, uh, this is Jessica. I won't say the whole name. I don't know if she cares or not, but Jessica says, Uh, Christian called, I grew up and said that, uh, this was the, was devil stuff, and to stay away from Pentecostals in particular.

Um, but, uh, I'm gonna attempt to play this other one. I assume it's a question, but it's a, uh, two clip video. So let's see how this goes. This is from RR Prime underscore. Um, he, he's been listening I think for a bit. He's commented on a few things, but I'm gonna attempt to play this here and see if there's a question that we need to address or whatever.

But, um, I have a re I have 

a response to this that's way too long for a text. So, uh, really quick, uh, I was in New Orleans when I was 21, back in 2006 and, uh, for a, uh, outreach and there was like, uh, there was like a huge, it was like the mecca of like Pentecostal young adults and, and youths. And, uh, we were outreaching the Mardi Gras, and this was a year after Katrina.

So we were outreaching doing all that stuff, but we would have these conferences at night and uh, people would be going off with their whole speaking in tongue. I mean, there's people shaking, there's people falling, there's people twitching. And I'm like, there, and I'm, you already 

Pentecostal 

and, 

you know, familiar with it and just never really done it.

And uh, all of a sudden there's this dude just walking around touching people, going, pop, pop, pop, 

pop. And I'm like, 

I dunno if this is speaking tongue, but this is weird. 

Pop. 

I presume that's, I presume that's somebody going through the crowd, uh, like touching them. Yeah. Like laying and they're falling down or something.

I assume so. Um, 

well, I, but I think isn't that most people's understanding of speaking in tongues is very, Charismatic. Very dramatic, very showy, loud. 

Almost like a televised. 

Unbelievable to a lot of people, right? Like you're watching the Three Stooges where everything is like over dramatic. Dr. 

Dramatized.

Dramatized. Yeah. Why can't think of the word. I was Benny hidden people with his coats. 

Yeah. Mop in the crowd. Just, uh, very, um, over and above, like what the amount of like, you really have to sell it is kind of the way I've always understood speaking tongues. Like it's not something that is, um, gentle or, uh, even educational.

Like most times I've thought of it. I think of that very showy, televangelist, healing people on stage and then they fall to the ground and someone's over here. With a snake. I mean, very drama. Right. And I think that is, I think even just having this conversation of saying like, just maybe that's not what this would look like in practice today is gonna be challenging enough for probably not anybody who's willing to listen to this podcast.

But I'm probably, probably, they all would be a little more in our camp on this. But I think just being able to have conversations where you say, just maybe it's not what we've interpreted the scripture to say for the last thousands of years. Right. And saying like, and that's okay, but we can educate ourselves to a point of saying, let's attempt to do our best to understand what maybe was going on instead of saying, um, it has to be loud and showy and dramatic.

Um, because I do think, I mean, that's the only time I've ever experienced it, right, is when it is, uh, It's a lot. Yeah. Right. I mean, which sounds like what he Yeah. Was going through, but 

yeah. Ba 

ba, ba. Yeah. I, I think one of the, one of the characteristics that Paul talks about, again, first Corinthians is a corrective letter from the start to the finish.

Yeah. Um, and if you read the whole passage, the whole book, the whole letter, Paul, is correcting things that they're not doing correctly. He's giving them instruction as to how to change their behavior. And one of those instructions about this topic is that when God moves, it's in an orderly fashion. You should only have two or three people speaking one at a time, and only when the gift of interpretation is given and otherwise get that out of the church.

In other words, the speaker should be signed or go home. Well, yeah, I mean, yeah, basically shut up. If that's what's, what's going on because it's not what God is doing. That is something else. And so even in Acts chapter two, if, if what and what I try and do is meld the two First Corinthians and the episodes in Acts together and they dovetail nicely if you read them correctly.

Um, acts chapter two would've been a very organized, orderly event. And I don't think we often get that, um, from our modern day continuation is camp. I think they encourage chaos and yeah, the fact that chaos reigns in a lot of those, uh, number one, it turns a lot of people away thinking how can, that can be something that God's doing.

But it also kind of flies in the face of Paul's instruction in First Corinthians. I mean, it just, it needs to be an orderly thing. We would expect that of a God of order. Um, yeah. When God speaks, it seems like those words are important enough for people to understand somehow. And yet when you go into certain circumstances, like this guy was talking about, it's just people talking.

If I was in a circumstance like that, whether it be in a church service or New Orleans or wherever, based on my understanding, if people are speaking in tongues, I'm not looking at them. What I'm trying to do is scan the crowd and see if there's anybody with a really surprised look on their face. And I'm gonna go up to that person and say, what's going on?

And if they say to me, I don't know what's going on, but I'm understanding these people, like they're talking my native tongue and nobody else is, I'm gonna spend some time with that person. Because then maybe something is afoot of what God is doing. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And if nobody is having that response, I can come to a conclusion as well.

Yeah, yeah. Right. Get out. Well, it's just, you know, the biblical instruction is when tongues, the gift of tongues is truly given. God also gives the gift of interpretation and that just makes sense from the whole biblical record, not just a few New Testament examples. 

That's probably a good place to, uh, end it there for now.

Um, we're a little beyond, but I think that's worth it. Um, solved all the world's problems. Fixed it. I mean, honestly it did. I mean, it it, not to the whole point of it, these are never to fix and solve things, but like, I think it helped kind of like smooth a smooth over bring perspective. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of questions, um, kind of make more sense, you know, a little bit with that, that mentality there.

So, um, for sure. Thank you, Greg. That was really good. Thanks. Thanks for jumping back on with us. Yeah, 

totally fine. I will, uh, I'll put, I'll put in the show notes, um, the links you sent us mm-hmm. To podcast episodes you have, um, on this topic as well, so that if people wanna explore some more, they can check that out.

So I will do that, um, in the notes. 

Yeah, feel free to, do you want a quick plug again, uh, your, your podcast or anything else you have going on? We, we like giving you a little room to say 

something. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, my podcast, rethinking Scripture and it's associated website, rethinking scripture.com. Uh, recently went through the book of acts, so I talked about tongues a lot, and those are the links you're gonna probably link to.

And, uh, this is probably gonna be my major, my next major book. So, um, I've started, yeah, uh, rethinking babel.com website in anticipation that, that's probably where this is headed. Um, eventually. Nice. So, uh, people can go there that when it comes out, 

What's that? We'll have you back on. Oh, perfect. So when it comes out, we'll have you back on.

Yeah. 

Perfect. Yep. And, uh, before that, you know, whatever. Yeah, no, I, I appreciate what you guys are doing. Uh, it's, it's, it's unfortunate that the previous generations have created such a circumstance where the upcoming generations, their natural tendency is to just wanna leave the conversation. And I really appreciate Yeah.

People like you that are able to bridge the gap and say, you know what? God's not done with. Humanity yet, and God's not done with, you know, speaking in tongues maybe yet, or the idea of rest or whatever it is we might be talking about. Yeah, I think you guys do a great job and you do it, you know, half inebriated, half the time.

So you just gotta skip past that first quarter, that first quarter where everybody's going to hell or at least purgatory. Right.

Oh, man. Uh, well thank you again. We appreciate it and we'll definitely reach out, uh, to have you back on at some point soon. We, we love these conversations to you. Uh, you have a nice, uh, perspective, I would say for sure. Yeah. Uh, to be, to be explored. So thank you Greg. We will talk to you soon and, uh, yeah, thanks.

We'll talk to you. Thank you. Thanks, man. Awesome. Thank you again to, uh, Greg for being on the show. Yes. Uh, this, this should go easier cuz Evan's not here to rush us out, but, 

um, same again recording this in the future of when we recorded the episode. 

Yeah. So, um, it was, it was awesome talking to him again.

Um, obviously he's got a, a whole lot of knowledge and a lot of, um, stuff that we don't have. Um, but, uh, thanks again to Greg for that, uh, great 

conversation. Yes. And we also wanna say thanks to, uh, Michael Porter for, he bought us around a drinks Yum. Through our PayPal link, which you can find on our website, christianna of podcast.com.

That's right. If you wanna, you wanna be cool like Michael, 

sponsor an episode with drinks. 

Mm, yes. We, we appreciate it. We appreciate it, Michael. Yeah. Keeping us hydrated well, Water. So not hydrated per se, but uh, our thirst has been quenched. Is that a better way to say it? That I would say so. Okay, cool. Um, cool.

Uh, if you want to go to our website, christian podcast.com to send us a message or find other episodes, um, yeah, share us with your friends. Leave us a review if you would. The, 

like, all the links are up there if you wanna follow us anywhere. Yeah. You can do all the things on the website. Do you have some TikTok?

Uh, nothing like content. It's just shares of some, we don't have anything. Some clips. They're clips. Oh, okay. Clips of the show. But if you follow us, find us on the TikTok, we might do some stuff on there eventually. We've been saying that for two years. Just gotta keep saying, um, maybe one day follow us out all those places and share with your friends.

Uh, we can't really keep doing this without support or sharing. Uh, so we've been growing in numbers. That's cool to. Uh, again, thank you to the people who, uh, wrote in or, uh, sent us a video. You guys are awesome. Uh, the more questions or just comments or all that stuff is awesome. It makes us feel like we're not just, uh, talking to each other, talking to each other.

All we do that enough? Yeah. So, uh, keep that up. If you see us post, uh, comment, say hi, ask questions. Uh, we'll try to keep ahead of the, uh, episodes here and I'll let you guys know what is coming up so you can ask, uh, particular questions re regard. Um, are you okay? I can't, no. All right. It's too late 

in the data interview regarding the topics Yes.

That we're gonna be doing, uh, until then, Keep questioning your pastor, 

your faith, your church, and uh, keep questioning if people are gifts. Truly speaking in tongues and you hear it, uh, keep asking questions obviously. So in the meantime, I'm Jesse. 

I'm Jen. I'm Evan. That was good. That's like what you guys do when you impersonate me.

I happen. Yeah. All right. See you guys next. Excited. All right, bye.