Welcome to Chopping it Up. I'm your host, Mike Halon, the senior restaurant and food Service analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence. So today we're joined by Joe Rank and the CEO of put Shack Tech infused mini golf Experience. Thanks for doing this, Joe.
Thanks for having me. Mike happy to be here.
Can you talk a little bit about your career prior to put shack and what attracted you to this opportunity?
Sure, time fly. So for probably the past twenty five years, I've either been involved in sports, leisure, entertainment, social entertainment. I think the thing that it's most relevant to what we're building a Putchack. I was the CEO at a concept called top Golf earlier in my career and joined that when there was just one Top Golf location in the US and helped build the foundation and grow that which was a lot of fun and obviously it's done
exceptionally well, continues to do exceptionally well. And the link really with putchak is the guys who invented the game of putchack are identical twin brothers out of London, Steve and Dave Joliffe. They were the same guys who invented the game at Top Golf. So I've known him for over fifteen years now, and you know, and they're incredible
inventors and they're avid golfers. And so they stepped back one day and said, you know, miniature golf has been around for one hundred years and it hasn't changed in one hundred years. How can we reinvent this game? So they started taking a look at technology that didn't exist back when they had created Top Golf and started to look at, hey, how can we change this game around. So what they managed to do was put essentially a mini iPad inside the golf ball. So inside every golf
ball is a computer processor. There's a battery system in there, it's GPS enabled, Bluetooth enabled. So what that created the ability to do was write the game so that you can track the ball on every inch of every hole. Created automatic scoring, so there's no more carrying around a pendulum paper, and of course there's also no more cheating because if you pick up the ball and move it, the system knows it and then really change the game.
And so instead of getting trying to get the lowest score possible, you're trying to get the highest score possible. And the way they did that is you get bonus points if you get a hole in one, and then every hole has a way to either score bonus points or hazards where you can lose points. So, for example, there's a pop the question hole. It's a true false question, so you'll get a true false question. It comes up on your screen. If you think the answer is true,
you put under a bridge. It says true. If you think it's false, you put under a bridge it says false. If you get it right, you get bonus points. If you get it wrong, you lose points. Right, and then they created all of the holes really around our core demographic. So our core demographic is twenty one to thirty nine year olds. So you'll have a beer pung hole, you'll have a roulette hole, you've got to pop the question hole, you've got to shoot the basket, which is a basketball hole.
What you won't find at Putchack is things like pirate chips and windmills that were great when you grew up, but now as an adult, you want a different experience.
Very cool. So are all the courses the same or does some of them have you know, different holes based on location or whatever it might do.
Yeah, so we have our typical venue has four nine hole courses, so there's thirty six holes in every venue. I think at this point now we have over thirty unique holes. There's a handful that we repeat because they're guest favorites, and then the courses. You know, we we don't do ground up builds, or haven't up to this point in time. We've we've done adaptive reuse. So the space within each venue is slightly different based on what
we're stepping into. So every you know, nine holes in Chicago may look different than nine holes in Boston, although you'll, you know, you'll end up over the thirty six holes using the same ones.
I'd imagine using re readapted spaces helps your build costs.
It does, And you know, we really focus on partnering with the landlords and our and our development partners. We are fortunate that we have you know, we have a guest demographic that is very attractive within our landlords, whether that's an outdoor lifestyle mall or a mixed use development.
You know that twenty one to thirty nine year old is is kind of the demographic that everybody wants to get to and typically dry between three hundred and fifty and four hundred and twenty five thousand visitors per year per venue. So so the great part about that is, you know we'll partner with with that landlord and become in essence for existing location or an existing development, you know, that new anchor. So you know in the suburbs of Chicago, we took over a former Lord and Taylor space and
put in a punt check there. In mid town Atlanta, it was a mixed use development and we anchor seventy five thousand score feet of retail with our twenty five thousand score feet. So it's more cost well, I would say it's more cost effective, but it depends on kind of what you're starting out with. But we do get really great support from from our development partners.
All right, great about is twenty five thousand square feet? Is that the typical size and how much do they cost to build?
Sure? It is. We do have some that have gone a bit larger. So our largest is in Dallas and Addison at thirty thousand, but twenty five thousand is our typical. It was a lot less costly to build kind of before the pandemic hit and construction costs have risen dramatically since then. But including all of our soft costs and opening costs, you know, we're in the thirteen to fourteen million dollar range, depending on where what market we're in.
Part of what makes put check I think different than other concepts within our space is we do focus very much on investing in a high end build from you know, not only the technology and the course and everything around the game itself, but all of the you know what the restaurant side of our business, the bar side of the business, the food and beverage, it's you know, we all really focused on developed or delivering a brand experience that's really elevated in nature.
Okay, so they're not cheap to build, but I know, yeah for some pretty strong AUVs. So so where where do they come in at? And what's the revenue split between games, food and drinks.
Sure, so, you know, our average AUV is in the thirteen to fourteen million dollar range, and we do about forty two to forty percent of our revenue is generated by the game, which is is very profitable, which is great, but we do fifty eight percent of our business on the food and beverage side. So it's a standalone restaurant our our. You know, our venues are doing anywhere from seven and a half to our our strongest performing I use almost twelve million dollars of a standalone restaurant, which
is a huge significant operation in and of itself. You know, on the restaurant side of the business, as we focus on it, were because of the gas and the fact that they can drink while they're playing the game. You know, we skew more than a typical restaurant would on the beverage side, and you know alcohol is a part of that. So you know, our economics are incredibly strong. It's one of the things that really drew me to the concept.
You know, I think long term success within the social entertainment and dining space is really anchored on three things. It's anchored on a fun and engaging game that people want to come back and play time and time again. But then also has some intellectual property protection, right, so there's a barrier of entry, there's a moat that's created so people can't go, oh wow, that's a great concept. I'm just going to open one across the street and compete with you. So we own a global patent on
automatic scoring a miniature golf. So with the technology that the inventors were able to create, they were able to secure a concept patent. And what that means is somebody else could look in and go, oh wow, I could put different technology inside the golf well and scored automatically. If it scores the game, it violates the concept patent that we own on a global basis, which creates a really
nice barrier of entry. But that by itself today I think within the space that we're in, doesn't ensure long term success. We were really focused on saying, we have to deliver a food and beverage experience that is as good as any casual dining option that our guests can choose from, because really we're competing against those leisure and entertainment dollars, and whether that's movie theaters, whether that's casual dining, whether that's other social entertainment concepts, we have to be
able to compete across the board. So it was really important for us when we were developing the F and B side, is it has to be as good and as strong as the game, because really that's the brand that we're creating. The third component with that is the guest service experience, which you know, in today's environment may
be the hardest thing to actually deliver. You know, hospitality had a lot of people leave during the pandemic, and I think a lot of people are back, but you know, creating that guest service experience where we're linking the game, the food and beverage, tying it all together, where we can activate all the senses from site, sounds, smell, et cetera, and our associates really tying it together so people have
great memories. That's the real strength and I think we see that within the economic model that we have our typical venues will do in the mid twenties. For site level Ebada, we've opened eighteen venues now for in the UK and fourteen in the US, including three the we've opened in the in the first quarter of twenty twenty four.
Every venue that we've ever opened has been profitable in the first thirty days from opening the doors, so we actually the last venue we opened was in Louisville in the middle of March, and I was just looking at our March numbers. It was profitable after two weeks.
Very impressive, all right, You spoke about a few things that we're going to circle back to. One follow up. What's the alcohol mix?
A typical restaurant is like two thirds food one third beverage. We're about the opposite. We're about two thirds beverage one third food.
Wow, all right, great, definitely helps margins. Are you willing to share any of the margin data and any other unit level economics?
I mean, our the great part about the game is, you know, it's about ninety five percent gross margin. You know, we have the cost of the ball, we have the cost of hutters or our team that are game in bass to help with the guest game experience. And then on a blended basis, we operate at about eighty four to eighty six percent gross margins at the venue level
and then operating costs, rent, et cetera. You know, we're in the you know, our best our highest revenue performing sites are a thirty percent plus site level Libada, and our average is, you know, kind of in the twenty two to twenty six percent range.
Okay, strong, How many stores do you have and how fast are you opening new ones?
Sure? So we have opened our eighteenth location. We have an additional eight more locations that we have in various stages of development from design, permitting to construction. So yeah, we have a you know, we'll we have at least twenty six locations that we that we've got committed to and and you know, obviously want to continue to grow. It's it's been amazing as I kind of step back and take a look at how quickly we've managed to kind of grow the business and open really across the
country so far. But you know, of the last twelve US venues that we've opened, we've opened those twelve venues in twenty months.
So you have some in the UK as well, right, what's the split?
So we have four we have four in the Greater London area, so you know, the inventors of the game are from there, and the co the third founder is a gentleman by the name of Adam Breeden who's done a number of other social entertainment concepts. All three of them are from London. So the very first test location was in West London that opened in June of twenty eighteen.
I joined the organization in January nineteen. There were a few more that were committed it in the UK, and really though the main focus since twenty twenty one has been growth in the US.
Yeah, so let's get back to the menu. It's elevated. I haven't had the opportunity to get to one yet, but you know, I checked out the menu online and it's not what you'd expect at a miniature golf.
Joint, you know.
So if you could talk a little bit about that menu and do you have customers that come in just to eat and not even play play the games?
Yeah, So the answer is we do have people to come in to do that, and oftentimes it's not because they're not wanting to play the game, but it more often the case that we're fully booked for the evening, but they came in just to eat and drink anyway, and the environment and the ambiance that that's created. So our goal are. Vice president of Food and Beverage is a guy by the name of Mark Boynton. Mark's a
French trained executive chef. I have known him for over a decade and when we got together, you know, we said, okay, how do we really elevate the food and beverage experience? Right? Mark is a huge believer in presentation that you know, people eat with their eyes eat with their eyes first, drink this in the same way, we created a globally
inspired menu. We have a lot of shareables because people tend to come in groups, right, but you would not expect to go to a miniature golf location and get you know, wood fire Thai octopus, right, But that's the menu and it's amazing them. By the way. You know, we have Mediterranean lamb skewers, Persian chicken skewers, so there's a whole variety. And we have a lot of offerings as well, for you know, that are vegetarian, vegan, gluten free, so you know, just as a as a vegan option.
For example, we have nine dishes that are available as a vegan option, so it's not like we threw one or two together and go okay, great, that's it. But then we also have you know, we have terrific flatbreads. We have handheld So the important part and I think what people people who are really into the the restaurant
space would probably be able to relate to. But one of the gifts that Mark has is not only in creating you know, fantastic menu and with that we have over one hundred housemaid recipes that go into our dishes. But on a on a Saturday during you know, throughout the day, we could have twenty two to twenty five
hundred people come through the door. Right, So, putting together a menu that is elevated to tastes really good that you can deliver and have the presentation consistently when you have that kind of volume, that's really hard to do, right. I mean it's you know, you look at the dish, you go, okay, great, you know, it's really nice. But actually being able to deliver that in the quality of the presentation is a is a it's a credible gift that he has in doing that. He's what's interesting in
today's environment. You know, fifteen years ago doing this you could just say okay, we've got you know, we've got you know, casual dining menu and a full service bar. Today there is such a huge focus on what your signature cocktails are, you know, how are they different from where you can go and get you know, from someplace else. How is the theater around that, and how is that presented so that your guests like get a wow factor
that's out of it. Right, And and Mark on the mixology side probably spends as much time putting together our signature cocktails as he does the signature dishes. So, you know, we've got a breaking bad pisco punch right that that comes out, you know, it's a mescal tequila and it comes out in a in a treasure chest with hemp smoke to it, and you know it's kind of all part of that breaking bad, you know, serious theme. We've got a you know, margarita's are are going to be,
you know, seemingly a staple no matter what. But we have a spice pineapple mezcal martarita right where there's a Holopeni infused popsicle. And and as that it melts within the drink, it changes the flavor profile as you're drinking the cocktail. So there's just a lot of fun and unique things that go along with the beverage and the
food side. And you know, for me, I think as we try to get the you know that those three key things right, what I really like is when I'm talking with you know, somebody who's been to Putchek for the first time, and I ask them, you know, okay, tell me the good, tell me the bad, you know, give me all the feedback and and two things I really like. One is when they say, you know, the game was great, which you know, I quite frankly really expect them to say. But it's when they say, oh
my god, the food was so good. I really didn't expect the food to be that good. And and to your point, where they go, I come back just to eat and drink here, right. And then the other part is really that third component is when they'll go and you know, you know, and I've gotten this kind of a couple of times from people that use this exact phrase. Your associates just exude joy. And I'm like, Okay, if we can do those three things, then we're creating exactly
what our brand is aspiring to be. And really have a fun environment where people come in and create memories.
That's really cool. And you're making me want to have a cocktail as well. But I got way too much work. You have way too much work to do today and tomorrow.
But it's five o'clock somewhere for sure. All right.
That's that's interesting what you mentioned in terms of of the hospitality aspect and the ethos and how do you think, how do you what's enabling you to achieve that because that's that's hard to achieve.
Yeah, you know, it's a huge focus that we spend. I think a lot of it comes down to early on, we really focused on what's our what are our core values, what's our brand? What do we stand for? Right? Because if you know what you stand for, if you set your core values, then you can build all your training programs around it. Because at the core I think of having engaged associates, it's the training part, and the training part comes down to, well, what is it that you
believe in and who are you for us? That came down to four. We distilled that to four things. Bring your A game, lead the way, own the fund, and care deeply what we call block Okay, so we ask our associates to bring their a game every day, make sure that they are engaged with our guests in creating the fund memories. We also ask them to lead the way, which means to take some risks. Right. If we're going to be an exceptional brand, you can't do that by
being conservative and not risk taking. Right. So you know, we don't want them to do stupid things, but we want them to lead the way and that means taking risks and as part of that. That also means that we will fail at times, right, it's inevitable, and encourage people to take the risk. But then learning from any failures and not punishing is what I think will help drive continue to drive the brand forward. Own the fun is really you know, people come into Puncheck because they
want to have fun. All the squirrels that are running around in their head throughout the day, they just wanted to stop for a couple hours and enjoy the time with the people they're with. You know, when the DJs are playing, you know, the music's going, the lighting, and you know it in the evening. We're an adult only venue, right, so it's it turns into an upscale night club feel right, And we want people to have fun, and we want
our associates to own that fun as well. And then the fourth one is care deeply care about our guests, care about our associates, and care about the communities that we're part of. So you know, one of the things that we do, we have a signature menu that mark Tailor's to every market called the Tailpipes, which is a spring roll. A dollar of every one of those goes back to a local charity and it's not a charity that I pick, or anybody on the central team picks.
The managers at the venue pick a charity that's important within the local community, and then they give back to that And each one of those tailpipes is kind of custom made for the venue. So in Chicago, not surprising, it's a hot beef spring roll which ardnare in it. In Boston it's lobster maca cheese, right. But you know, in the first year in the suburbs of Chicago, we sold over ten thousand of those tailpipes that we were able to give back in that market. It's to a
local food bank, right. So I think for us, if you demonstrate that, if you do those things, and if you show with our associates that we care about them, then it makes it easier for them to take the step of really caring about our guests.
That's great in terms of the tailpipes and letting your managers pick the charity. And you know, I'd imagine that definitely helps create engaged employees and customers too, right. I mean, people especially in your core demographic, want to be associated with brands that that do good. So that's that's some really cool stuff and you also mentioned the freedom to take risks. I know I appreciate that in my job, so I'm sure your employees and you know, appreciate that
as well. Do you have any turnover metrics that you'd like to share. I'd imagine it sounds like it'd probably be pretty good compared to you know, competitors in the restaurant space.
It is, you know, I would say, it's still it's one of those things that we build that builds over time,
all right. So it's kind of evolved a bit with you know, I mean the first venue we opened was in the middle the pandemic and hiring anybody who was like virtually impossible, right, So, and the people that you want to hire when you're a new brand and establishing yourselves, you know, like when you want to hire the best bartenders, the best bartenders already have a job, so they want to know, hey, is this really going to work before I quit my other job and come over to put shack.
So what we learned, like any industry, every industry is small, and work gets around quickly. And the other thing that I've learned over my career is good people know other good people. Right, So as we open for example, we opened in Philadelphia last month, Yeah, in February. Sorry, when we opened our portal to bring on associates, we had hundreds more people apply. Then we had spaces to fill, which is great, which is was not the case at the first venues when you know, people wanted to see, hey,
is it really going to work? So, you know, I think we're very fortunate that we have a great concept, we have people who truly believe in, you know, in our core values. And I think, you know, we also have the opportunity because we're growing, that we can create
a career path for people. Right We've had people at our at our earlier you know, at our oldest venues and I say our oldest venues in the US, they are like two and a half years old, right, So, but they started as hourly associates, maybe as a bartender, as a server, and then you know became you know, shift managers and salaried managers and and our goal is to really continue to create a culture where we can develop people within and then promote them into or and
better opportunities within the organization.
Col And are you are you transferring a lot of your current gms into the new stores.
We are, we're I mean, we have a number of What we tend to have is we have kind of our GM, which we call ADO director of Operations, and then we have a hospitality director and a beverage director and ideally we're taking and then hospitality and beverage managers. We're training the managers to become directors, and then those two right hand people then are the ideal people that we want to promote to become a DOO when we're opening up a new venue in a new market.
Gotcha awesome? What's the challenge Hall?
The challenge Hall is, so, you know, the great thing about what we are is, at the heart of it, we're a technology company. So we're continuously always looking at, hey, how can we continue to improve either the kind of exist game through the technology and software development. And at one point we said, you know, what we'd really like to do is create a game where right now you can play and you can drink, but it's not really
conducive to eating. So is there a way that we can create another game or another way to play the game, or you can eat, drink and play all at the same time. So that was kind of the thought process behind the Challenge Hole, which we launched in December and are opening in Addison, just outside of Dallas. So the Challenge Hole is a single standalone hole, So think about it like a bowling alley or a bay a top golf type of scenario. So you can sit, eat, drink
and play. And then you have a sixty five inch monitor at the top of the hole, so there's just one hole instead of instead of putting into a single hole, there's twenty two slots at the top. And then there's six games that we play. So if you think about putting the ball up this ramp and into the various slots, and then think about the game duck Hunt right where the ducks are coming across the screen and you're putting the golf ball and you're knocking the ducks out and
you're scoring points. And then there's ducks that come across where you can lose points. So we have six different games that people can play. It is ideally suited for groups of called six to twelve. You know, our traditional game is perfect for date night groups of four six. If you get eight people on a single hole, it can get a little It starts to get a little bit crowded, and so the Challenge Hole really addresses that.
The guests have absolutely loved it so far. The great thing is again because at the heart of it, we're really a technology company. We're getting real time feedback and other games that they want to see, and so we've already got a lot of games that we're continuing to develop in the background as well. So we'll be including the Challenge Hole in all of the venues that we open really starting in the second half of this year.
All right, great, and is there any other potential for this, you know, in terms of maybe being retrofited, retrofitted to existing locations, or maybe even a smaller unit that maybe only has these challenge Hole bays and uh you know bar kitchen type area.
Yep. Yeah, So I think part of what we're thinking through now from strategically, you know, what can we do with this, We're you know, we're just we're just scratching the surface, and I think all the opportunity so the Challenge Hole is great as kind of a standalone product, which we we might actually partner with people to put in into other kind of concepts, but we can all also potentially do it into more smaller markets that might not be able to support a full size punchback location.
So whether that's fewer number of traditional courses or maybe even a smaller venue footprint that has just the challenge holes, smaller kitchen footprint that we can then get into markets that allows us, you know, a much bigger tam for the overall business. So yeah, we're excited about where it fits within our traditional kind of buildouts, and we're equally excited about I think the opportunities that we're just starting to take a look at now as far as you know,
what can we do in a smaller venue footprint? Awesome?
And can you talk a little bit about marketing. I saw your Ace Putman videos.
They're funny.
I saw them on YouTube. So if you can talk a little bit about some of that strategy, I'd imagine social media is probably pretty big.
Yeah, So for us, social media is absolutely key to the marketing that we do. Ace Putman is a marketing program that initiative that we launched about six weeks ago now, and we thought it was just a really fun, engaging way to educate people about how putchack is different. There's only one place in the world that you can play it, and that is at a punchack. There may be other places that you could play miniature golf, but it just
doesn't compare. And they're they're really good thirty second kind of snippets that really kind of help educate the marketplace as far as what it is. And you know, the great thing about how social marketing works today, you know, miniature golf in general and punchack at you know, it's a multi generational game, right. You can play it at seven years old, you can play it at seventy seven
years old. And while our core demographic is that twenty one to thirty nine and we're built only in the evening. In the daytime, we do a lot of corporate events, we have a lot of families, particularly on the weekends and then but marketing programs like Ace Popman, which is really geared towards our core demographic, right, those that twenty eight year old that'll that'll come on a Saturday night.
We'll have no idea that a twelve year old was there at two o'clock in the afternoon, right, which is exactly the way we want. And yeah, it's a you know, our marketing team did a great job in putting that together because it's a really fun campaign.
Yeah, it's funny and I imagine that and the venues are pretty instagrammable, so I'm sure that helps too.
Absolutely, we have you know, we have this sign that that's in the venues. Actually we started moving it into the core of the venues, but we had it in the It's in all of our bathrooms as well. It says stop quit looking at my putt. And there are so many people who photograph that with you know, sticking their butts out and instagramming that out, which is you know, it's it's amazing how you know what things people get, you know, get get picked up and then and then
fired out all over the place. And I think you know that's and really the food and beverage side as well, is you know, it's just you know, when when you're opening up a drink that's smoking, like, people immediately want to instagram that out and and show everybody, which you know, there's nothing better than when your guests are are doing some of the marketing for you.
Yeah, definitely, Man, Where's where's the closest put shack?
To me?
What do I have to go to Philly?
What's what's the Philip Philly would be the closest. We have two now in Boston, one in Seaport, and one in the suburbs in Natick in Pittsburgh. Those are kind of the ones closest to New Jersey. I'd love to be in New Jersey as soon as we can find the right the right deal in the right location. Very cool.
I have to hit one up while I'm on the road or check out Philly one of these days. But thanks for doing this, man. It's a it's a great story. I look forward to to following it, you know, going forward, where can the audience go to find their nearest put schack?
So if you go to putchak dot com, will you can pick your location because we're everywhere from east coast, midwest, south north and uh and west out and as far west as Denver and Scottsdale.
Yeah, and I guess one more one last question too. You know you they're kind of scattered around the US. But you notice that that when some of your customers travel, they'll go to a puts shack in another city, right they will.
It's a you know, try as much as I travel now and oftentimes I'm wearing a branded shirt or something. When I get on a plane, you know, like I'll get out. Well, we were at ICR actually when when we uh last talked, which was in Orlando, right, there's an event there and the bartender was like, oh my god, you're with Putchak. I was just in Pittsburgh playing there. I told all my family they have to go. It's
the best thing I've ever had, you know. And then I get on a plane and there's another guy from a different city, and yeah, it's you know, it's great when you know, you when people start coming up to you and not asking, hey, what's Putchak? But I've been there, and I'm checking it out in a different city, or I'm telling all of my family and friends that live in different cities to go. So yeah, that's you know, it's it's a fun part of the job.
Yeah, that's very cool, man, very cool. I'm looking forward to checking it out. I also want to thank the audience for tuning in. If you liked the episode, please share it with your friends and colleagues. Check back soon for a discussion with Matt Tucker, the CEO of talk
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