Welcome to Chopping it Up. I'm your host, Mike Hamlon, Senior Restaurant and Food Service analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence. Our research and that a bi's five hundred analysts around the globe can be found exclusively on the Bloomberg terminal. Today, we're joined by Steve Kislow, the CEO of Firebirds Wood Fired Grill. Thanks for joining me, Steve, my pleasure. Thanks for having me so first creating Nashville and Vegas for our FDC. We've had similar travel schedules, man.
Indeed, indeed, it's good, always good running into.
You, for sure. Man. Same in my research. I saw you graduated from Villanova. I saw I saw the Wallcatcher plus twelve hundred to win the Big East this year. You probably never saw odds that low when Jay Wright was at the Helm.
Huh, No, it's been it's been a rough, rough couple of years. I actually noticed on your bio that you were Georgetown about I'm a little bit older than you, but it looks like we were there around the same time, so definitely definitely a rivalry back then. We really haven't haven't been quite as relevant in the last couple of years, for sure.
Yeah, Georgetown's like plus ten thousand. I think when the big East the Cooley is off to a rough start. But yeah, I think it was my my freshman year was that big eia scheme between Ai and ray Allen. Yep, you know that was that was pretty wild. That was like, you know, there hasn't been many good Georgetown teams since then.
I was a huge, huge college basketball fan, especially for the last you know, ten or fifteen years. There was a lot to celebrate, but you get spoiled when you have a decade that good.
Yeah, man showed how important coaching is. All right, man, let's get into it. Almost twenty two years of Firebirds. You must love that place. Tell me about your experience through the years and how the brand is evolved.
Yeah, well, definitely a lot to be proud of. Careers started thirty five years ago at you know McDonald's actually uh, you know, fat fast food, and fell fell in love with the restaurant business then. And really what attracted me to Firebirds is pretty similar to what attracted me to to McDonald's years ago. Just the ability to make a difference in people's lives, whether it be team members or or consumers. You know, one shift at a time, one
meal at a time. It's just a it's a it's a really fun business that has has treated me well and certainly have enjoyed some success. You know, Firebirds is a really you know, a lot of tenure on the team.
I mean there, I'm twenty two years and believe it or not, there's a there's quite a few a lot like me that we've worked we've worked together for a long time and you know, kind of founder founder selected and you know, been around understand the culture that that our founders you know, had in mind when they created the when they created the brand. So it's been it's
been a heck of a journey for sure. You know, I think maybe one of the most interesting parts of it was twenty two years ago, as you know, there wasn't a lot of There wasn't a lot of polished casual. It was kind of an emerging category. There's a lot of a lot of folks that have joined the party now.
But I think that's probably what was the most interesting part to me is I had spent time obviously in fast food and fast casual and in casual dining, and then you know, I had had some years with Mortons
to Chicago Steakhouse too. So I think that that blend of casual dining and fine dining, and then when I had an opportunity to you know, put my thumbprint on something that was kind of in the middle and bring some of those nuances of fine dining into the more approachable and casual format of casual dining, was just kind of a fun, a fun and perfect blend for me.
Very cool. Can you talk a little bit about the menu for the listeners that aren't familiar.
Sure, Well, as you said in the name Firebirds wood fired grill, you know, there are no on off switches on our grills. We we source all of our woods locally. You know, I think the journey really starts when you're in the parking lot and you get out of your car and you can just smell that, you know, wood burning kind of brings you back to you know, campfires and the way that cavemen you know, cooked in that primitive format, you know, thousands of years ago, and there's
something really cool about that. You know, we're loading that live wood into that grill all day long and it's it really imparts, you know, pretty unique, pretty special flavor bold flavor profile into the food and all those proteins, especially that we're cooking on the grill.
Uh.
And then you know, over the years, as our as our bar program has continued to evolve, it's not just the food that's that's getting nuances of you know, of char and fire, but uh, it's the bar program as well. You know, a really good blend of lunch versus dinner. We got about thirty percent of our mixes lunchtime, so you know, plenty of sandwiches, oversized salads and proteins on the lunch menu, and on the dinner menu you've got
a great selection of steaks and seafoods and pastas. I think the beauty of the brand is that there's really no veto vote. I mean, there's a little something for everybody when you're coming into to a Firebirds.
Very cool. How much of the business's alcohol and off premise.
You've got about eighteen percent of the business is coming from the bar. You know that that's not as a function of total net sales, so that includes all the off premise business we do as well. Off premise, we're just north of fifteen percent, which is a combination of traditional to go delivery as well as you know, kind of a new catering channel that's still really in its infancy.
There's been a lot of talk about how the younger generations are drinking less and just people in general are cutting back on alcohol. Have you seen that. Where's the alcohol mix versus you know, twenty nineteen.
Yeah, I think the it's really I think it's less about them drinking less and more about kind of how they're drinking and what they're drinking. You know, if you go back ten years ago, wine was king, you know, and you know, the craft beer craze was you know,
was still an important part of the business. And now we're seeing, you know, some erosion on the wine and beer side, while the liquor side is really growing right and and I think the different categories it was, you know, it was it was bourbon, you know, somewhere in the five, six, seven years ago. Now the real growing channel is is tequila, mezcal and all the agave spirits. I think it's gonna be interesting to see on the on the bar side,
kind of what's that next category. I you know, I can hypothesize and say it feels it feels like is probably coming next, because there's you know a lot of folks out there that are doing some pretty fun and exciting things, you know, in uh with with rum spirits.
Cool. Yeah. I was watching a video yesterday. It was about growth, brand growth and tequila category and it was interesting how all these like single sourced, additive free tequilas were kind of blowing up at the expense of some of the cause of egos of the world.
Yep, it's a it's a big, it's huge growing category and there's a lot of conversation you know around the additive around the additive side.
Too, So it's it's exciting.
I mean, it's it's I think there's I think part of what people loved about wine and beer ten years ago was that, you know, they all kind of had a story to them, and you know, on the alcohol side it they didn't quite embrace that yet. And now, you know, I don't know whether it's the celebrity piece that is kind of, you know, really come into the
picture that have helped the story part of it. But I think the different alcohol brands, you know, again, whether they be bourbon or tequila or whatever, they all kind of to have a story behind them now too, and I think people are getting more interested in that. They want to they want to know there's a story behind what they're drinking.
Yeah, for sure. How many units do you have now? And where is the change strong geographically? And I guess who's your core customer?
Yeah, uh, sixty four.
We just opened number sixty four this past this past Monday, And there's twenty one different states that we operate in. Very strong in the southeast, but we're you know, we're as far south as as Fort Lauderdale, as far north as you know, Ohio and western Pennsylvania, as far west as Arizona, so pretty widespread. And we've you know, we've we've already you know, have the proven portability with respect
to the brand across all those different states. But I would say are the strongest part of the brand is is in the southeast, the Carolinas, Virginia, which is where we began back in back in two thousand in in Charlotte, North Carolina. As far as our customer goes, you know,
it's it's everybody out there. I think I think the cool part about you know, I alluded to it earlier, uh, in being kind of in the middle of that fine dining and casual dining is that you know, folks from you know, the left side of the chart, are you know, are trading up for a little bit more money for a you know, a sexier facility, you know, elevated food.
I think we focus a little bit more on the mechanics of service as well as the feeling of hospitality and you know ingredients that we use again that would fired grill. Our bar program, you know, is all handcrafted cocktails. So I think we definitely appeal to a you know, to an audience that is willing to spend just a
little bit more, uh, for an elevated experience. And then if you think all the way to the right side of the graph with with the fine dining folks, they realize they're going to come to Firebirds And it's an incredible value because for a fraction of you know, that one hundred dollars check average, you can get you know, a very similar experience with some of the same nuances, but in maybe a more you know, approachable format.
Great. How big are your units and how much they cost to build?
Yeah, so our smallest units are somewhere between fifty one hundred and fifty three hundred feet, which is which is a little bit more of what we build today. And then we've gone as large over the course of the last two decades, as large as like eighty three hundred feet, but we don't, you know, we won't build a box that big now. Really, we've got two prototypes. There's a fifty three hundred and a sixty three hundred. The biggest
difference is a private dining room. If we're you know, if we're in a market that's real close to healthcare, we think that there's you know, enough class a office to do a private dining room. We do that, but most of what we're building now is in that fifty three hundred about a seven hundred square foot patio. We look for somewhere between thirty and thirty three tables and dining room, and then you know, the bars and I
size too. We've got you know, about eight tables typically in the bar, you know, plus the actual bar seating. And we've over the years evolved the patio from a true outdoor space with no lid to a completely enclosed space where.
We can use it all year long.
And then really through COVID, we learned that you know, people really you know, they they enjoyed, wanted those outdoor spaces, and that's really hasn't gone away. So we really haven't gone back to those fully enclosed patios, but it's sort of an evolution between the two. Now we've got you know, hard lids, we're spent a little bit money more money to soften up the patios with some really great landscaping
around it. So we've we're not quite where we were twenty years ago, but you know, we don't have the completely enclosed space either. We've just created a really nice outdoor space and really from a cost to build standpoint, it just kind of depends on, you know, whether we're on an end cap or you know, or a ground up. But the beauty of the brand really not flying under the radar anymore, is that developers really want us in their centers, you know, versus the usual suspects and casual dining.
You know, people are are looking for firebirds in the center. So you know, we're we're taking advantage of some of that additional t I dollars and you know, we're we're anywhere from from three to four and a half million you know, to build the to build the boxes.
Is there any other uni economic data you'd like to share, au VS margins stuff like that.
Au V's are approaching six million, Our store level EBITDA is north of north of twenty percent. Performance right now is great. You know, I'm sure the rest of the UH, the rest of the industry experienced a lot of what we did, at least in the very beginning of the year, with some with some really tough year over year weather delta stuff. But really the first half of the year we've spent you know, cawing back from that tough first five or six weeks. UH second half of the year
have had some really good momentum. You know, we're positive same source sales, you know, load to middle single digits, and you're to date where we're positive UH same store sales as well.
So it feels really good where we are right now.
Black Box Comps tells us we're outperforming UH the casual dining set as well as polished casual, So it feels really good where we are where we are today. I think I think a lot of that has to do with I mean, everywhere you read and everybody you talk to, and frankly, every everything everyone's doing out there is all
about value. We believe that you know, value is values an equation, right, I mean, it's it's it certainly is related to price, but it has everything to do with what you offer all year long, not just gimmicky you know, promotional discounts, and we try to do that all year long. I don't I don't believe that there's anything that we're doing differently today than we were doing two years ago.
We've got some evergreen stuff on the menu that really screams value, and we may message more about that, but it's not you know, there's not thirteen ninety five you know, three course menus or anything like that. It's still you know, we don't want to jeopardize the integrity of the brand. We think we think the value speaks for itself.
Yeah, and there's no need to. I mean, you're performing by a pretty wide margin. Man. It sharp feels like and looks like, based on the black Box Intelligence data, that we were in a restaurant recession this year, right, So mid to low single a load to mid single digits into our sales competent is very impressive in this.
Yeah, and it's consistent, it's consistent with what we did back in eight oh nine. I mean, I think in those tougher climates, you know, again, when you're positioned between casual and fine dining, I think there's a certain amount of insulation there where you may have some guests that reduce their cadence during those times and kind of maybe move to the left into the more casual price point.
But while that's happening, you have the folks that are going find dining more often that are reducing the cadence there, and they're coming to us. Whoever we may lose to the left, we're gaining from the right, And I think that's what's that's helped us in all of these different you know cycles that we're that we're that we've been in, and you know we'll be in the future. Let's face it, great,
are you having any issues finding good locations now? And how many restaurants do you expect to open in twenty twenty five. The short answer to the first part of the question is is is no. There's a lot of really good real estate out there right now. We are blessed with a brand that developers are excited about. So while they're you know, it's competitive, you know, it's we're We've got a really good product that the developers want, you know, want us in, So, you know, I think
that's that's that's a good place to be. We're going to open six to eight restaurants in twenty twenty five. We are we're fully baked at this point. All of the leases are signed and we're under development on all of those. And I would say it's you know, it's gonna be another eight and twenty twenty six as well. Twenty twenty six is about halfway done and we're already working on some twenty twenty seven sites. I think to get the best real estate, you've got to be two
years out. I mean, I think that's that's the number. Construction timelines have gotten better than they were, you know, in the last two or three years, but they're still a little longer than they, you know, than they were five years ago. So I think if you're if you're out for a plus real estate, you've got to be you know, you've got to be two years out, which is where we sit today.
It feels pretty good.
And what percentage of new store gms are brought in from other five Birds restaurants.
High percentage either the GM or the chef. We always try to have least one of those two, if not both be from another location, and if for some reason it's not possible, we will. You know, we'll hire a year out before a restaurant's opening to make sure that we can put that seasoning on them and they can spend that time in grade in a location, running a location. You know, even if it means absorbing some of the costs that the travel has, it's it's worth it to
make sure that we have the right people. And that's that's that's what it's all about. You surround yourself with great people, great things are going to happen.
Yeah, smart, Are you willing to share your employee turnover metrics?
Yeah, for sure.
We are from a from a management standpoint, you know, we've always been kind of in that industry leading twenty percent number, and that's that's our target.
Every year.
We try to stay below twenty percent. During during the tougher years of COVID, it got a little higher into kind of the mid mid to high twenties, and right after that it's right back down into the low twenties, high teens, and then from an hourly perspective, you know, we kind of hang somewhere between the ninety and one oh two, you know, for for hourly.
Yeah, those are numbers we're proud of.
We spent a lot of resources, a lot of time on what I like to refer to as the holy trinity of success in this business, which is selection, training, and environment. And we spend a lot of time providing the resources to people to prepare them for the position. And then you know, we try to motivate and get people excited about working in a in a safe, high energy, high energy type environment.
Yeah, I could stop. Those are great numbers. Do you have any Are you willing to share any of your plans to help drive scenes start sales growth in twenty five you know.
We we're going to continue to focus on innovating that the guest experience, right. I think that what I what I would want to share is just back to the whole idea of I think we spoke a little bit about it when we were together either at Create or or r F d C. But the idea behind data
and using data maybe more as information. I think over the course of the last quarter of a century, now that we've been open, we've collected terabytes and terabytes of data, and I think we thought we were on, you know, the cutting edge, but I don't think we really knew what to do with the data at the time. There's a lot of different silos out there that we're collecting it. We are spending a lot of time and resources now.
I wish we would have started a little bit sooner, but I love the direction that we're in and what we're doing today. We're spending a lot of time and resources now aggregating that data and putting it in a more accessible format to help us make great decisions for
the business. An example of that is marketing automation. You know, we're gonna know we already know, you know from a check detail standpoint, you know what Mike Halen loves based on what you come into the restaurant in order, you know, we build a profile on individual guests because you know you're you're a busy guy, and whether it's how we how we create the experience for you when you come
in the restaurant, or how we market to you. There's no reason for us to you know, market to you with pictures of stakes and different things that we're doing in the restaurants. With Ribbi's if you're a vegetarian. So I think really digging into that and being a lot more efficient in how we market to people take them on, you know, a far more personalized journey, you know, versus just you know, same thing for everybody.
You know, we're going to know that.
You normally come in eight times a year, but you haven't been in, let's say, in ninety days, and we're going to be able to reach out and just remind you that we exist. It doesn't mean that you're going to get a you know, an email for a seventeen dollars stake. It means we're just going to say, hey, you know, remember we were part of your starting rotation and for some reason we fell off, so we want
to remind you that we're here. So I think leaning into that automation, personalizing the experience, that's our loyalty program. I think there's there's an opportunity to differentiate yourself by having a loyalty program. But if it's the same as everybody else's and you don't find a way to personalize it, then it's not really a true.
Point of differentiation.
I think in the polished space, we've got to figure out ways to you know, make that loyalty program more about you know, being very specific to the individual consumer versus just how many points are you able to you know, to build and get a you know, get a free dinner or something like that.
Yeah, and to your point, that's why we've seen so many chains have to revamper loyalty programs in the last year or two. Right, It's because they weren't working. They weren't differentiated for sure. Yeah.
You know, i'd say probably the the other.
Thing that we're leaning into. You know, when you when you think.
About points of differentiation for Firebirds, you've got, you know, twenty years ago, the fact that we were in the Polish casual space was our point of differentiation. But you know, as we talked about earlier, there's there's so many more great brands that have joined the party. Now we've you know, we have kind of frankly allowed our our consumers the one that's shared with us. You know, what are you know, what makes us different? And I think that there's three
main things. One is the fire that I spoke about earlier. It's you know, I think that there's other folks that that cook on a wood fired grill. I don't think anybody leans into it quite like we do with you know, not only the food, not only the beverages, you know, different parts of the facility, whether it's you know, really cool fire features that we have in the restaurant, will use charred wood and charred brick, and how we build
the buildings, so we really lean into the fire. That's that's that's one point that we what we'll continue to do.
The second is just.
The whole idea of you know, elevated or extraordinary experiences and how we bring some of fine dining into a more cozy casual type format, whether it be you know, replacing your you know, your your martini glass with a chilled glass, you know, whether whether it be you know, a folded napkin at the table, you know, you know, certain things like that that are bringing just little bits
and pieces of fine dining into the casual space. And then the third, which I think as a you know, as a father of four with my youngest being six, I think our affinity for families really is a point of differentiation, if you if you think about fine dining for sure, and really even the folks in the Polish casual space, I think we stand alone in the concepts that really lean into the family and have that affinity
for families. And you know, whether it be our award winning Kids Menu that we've worked with Kids Live Well program in order to create you know, not only you know, great options, but healthy ones too. And then even our Kids menu itself talks a lot about the Firebirds values.
You know, we talk about our I teach values integrity, trust, empathy, accountability, caring, humility and like so, as a dad, I sit at the table and my kids are opening up their little menu and they start talking about dad, you know what's humility and they're doing their puzzles, but it's bringing up cool conversation with parents. So you know, something that's that is that we're That's always been in our in our playbook and a big part of who we are and.
What we do.
But we're creating a or we have created a junior chef program that's in test right now in about fifteen resta as that you know, now you may be an Inner Circle member, which is sort of our loyalty program.
But part of that Inner Circle member you as Mike Kalen, if you have two kids that is noted somewhere in your profile as well, So we're not only talking to you about steak that you love, but also the fact that you know, it's back to school season, and again we're personalizing that that experience and leaning into the fact that you know, we have that affinity for families.
Yeah, very cool. I love that. I love what you're doing on the kids menu. That's it's really cool. And then obviously you know, I see your vest, our guests can't see you. But the Alex's Lemonade Standard partnership.
Right, Yeah, something that we are really proud of. We're about twelve years now, a little more than twelve years that we've partnered with Alex's Lemonade Stand Foundation, which is a national charity for pediatric cancer research. You know, just a perfect partnership for us. Obviously, it's lemonade. We sell lemonade. You know, they're amazing partners. They put the money to really good use, and you know, we like to say that we're you know, we're participating in helping find a
cure for cancer, one cup at a time. You know, we've raised we've raised four million dollars over the course of the last twelve years.
I'd like to say pound for pound.
You know that we are we are one of their biggest partners and it's something that we're really proud of. H And frankly, we are team members as well as our guests really come along that journey with us. I mean, it's it's on our menu, it's on the kid's menu. It's something that we're communicating on a regular basis, and it resonates. I mean, people really think about Firebirds and als F as a true partnership. It's not something that we just picked to check a box to say that
we're participating. It's something that our employees believe in and you know, they take a lot of pride in it.
Aweso, man, the tchipp gears a little bit. How much inflation do you expect this year and how much price do you intend to take?
I think it's the same story that you're hearing from everybody else out there. You know it's gonna be it's gonna be low single digit. It's fortunately, you know, over the last few years, obviously there's been you know, plenty
of price that's been taken. We were probably a little bit late to the party over the last few years on how we took price partially because you know, we saw our traffic was was growing, you know, really aggressively, and we didn't think that there was a reason to I think we've caught up at this point, and you know, I'm comfortable with where we are. I would say twenty twenty five, we should expect somewhere between two and three
and a half percent will probably be the number. That's that's that's what we're looking at as we as we finish up our plan for the new year.
I don't know if you have any overlap with him, but I ran into Max Hoberman. I got to speak with him at our DC Super sharp guy. How was the partnership with Barnett Station gone to date?
They're they're the real deal.
We are really excited to be with with GSP and part of that family. You know, I've been fortunate to work with some really good private equity over the course of the last twenty years, from Angela Gordon to je Whitney and now Garnett Station. You know, you know some of the Garnett Station guys, So you know, I spoke about.
Data a little bit earlier.
You know, the it's it's great to have a partner that supports both our culture and has a great culture of their own. And it's great to have a partner that understands data the way that they do. And they've been really supportive, you know, with respect to the resources necessary in order for us to take that game to the next level. So it's been a it's been a it's only been eighteen months, you know, but so far it's been a great relationship.
You know, all the guys are great.
Matter.
I just talked to Max, you know, late yesterday afternoon, and I'm sure I'll be I'll be talking to them probably over the course the next couple of days. They're uh you know, when the phone rings and it's whether it's Max or Jordan or Matt or Alex. You know, you see those you see those names on the phone, and you're excited to talk to them because there's it's always a good conversation.
Good stuff. Man. All right, So what's your favorite order.
Uh favorite order for for Firebirds menu item? Man?
The the Cajun Cajun Rabbi. Hands down, it has been my favorite forever.
You gotta go.
Uh No, I think it's we had the chili rub it was at one point it was the chili rub Rabbi and it's kind of evolved into the Cajun, but that was my favorite of Morton's too to.
Be Franks with man.
Yeah, all grotten potato, all grotten potatoes with it is definitely uh is definitely the side. It's uh, it's it's good stuff. And I like to start dinner off with with a tequila cocktail and usually a glass of red wine uh with with the steak. And then certainly our our double black Diamond Martini is definitely our signature cocktail.
You'll see that on every bar when you come in.
That's that's twenty one days infused pineapple and pineapple vodka.
So it's uh, it's it's good stuff for sure.
We have similar food and drink taste, my friend. Thanks Steeve, thanks for doing this. Where can the audience go to find their nearest Firebirds and what social media platforms is the brand big on?
We are definitely big on Facebook, Instagram.
You know you can go you can.
Go right on our website Firebirds Restaurants dot com to find your nearest location. Like I said, twenty one twenty one states, you know sixty four locations, so you know more than likely there's one somewhere near you, you know. And again, you know, we're polished, casual. There's a lot of different ways that our guests interact with us, whether it's whether it's traditional to go or delivery or catering, or brunch or lunch or dinner. A lot of really
really good stuff out there, you know. I like to say that we're not you know, we're not special occasion where every occasion there's just a there's a little something for everybody, for a lot of different a lot of different opportunities to engage with the brand good stuff.
And I want to thank the audience for tuning in. You like the episode, please share it with your friends and colleagues. Check back soon for a discussion with Tom Ryan, the co founder at Tom's Wide Bar.