Red Bull (Part 2) - SuperMax and Trusty Sidekick

So touring in Red Bull basically animal bile stomach acid delicious carbonated, which is which is an excellent transition to Max whatever. His last name is a perfect segue, if you will. So for those who are just joining us, this is a second episode about Red Bull, second of our two parter, focusing on the drivers and what would I what I would consider to be probably the most interesting driver pairing in that I don't necessarily feel like they are competing against each other. But we will get

into why that happened and why that exists. From my Heart Radio and Sports Illustrated Studios, this is choosing sides. One. Wow, I have to admit, as a sports fan, there's something extraordinarily contradictory about watching teammates pass each other it's still I still can't kind of comprehend it because they're on the same team, but yet they're racing, so that that that's a very complicated but also cool factor of Formula One. I would say it's more one way at Red Bull.

You know, we don't we don't see Sergio Perez, also known as Checho passing Max, but we definitely see quite a bit of Max at times passing passing Checko. But we'll get into that. So yeah, So our two drivers today, we have reigning World driver's champion Max for Stappin, and then we have Sergio Perez. Sergio Perez is also often called Checko, so you can use those names interchangeably, but

he's more often than not called just Checko. So we're gonna start with Max for Stappin, partially because he is the reigning world champion and he got that title through a little bit of an upset. Do you remember when we talked about Louis Hamilton's with Mercedes, we discussed how he's into a million things. He does fashion, he loves his dog, he you know, he's got tattoos, into social activism. I would say Max for Stappen, Max Verstappen is the

complete opposite end of the spectrum. He has essentially been engineered from birth to be a Formula One driver. That is all he's about, that is all he thinks about. I remember interviewing him at the end of the sixteen season and he said, if someone gives me a car fast enough to win, I will be world champion. This is Jenny Gal, a long time F one journalist. There's no butts with Maxi verstapp and he knows he's good enough. He just needed a car and now he has it.

So he's a very intriguing character, the antithesis of Sir Lewis Hamilton's inasmuch as he does turn up on a race weekend. He hates talking to the media. Just already stopped about this because it's we had so many questions about this ridiculous. He gets into his car as quickly as he can, he drives some laps around and then he leaves the track and you don't hear of him, you don't see him. He doesn't have any kind of

huge online presence. Tennis has these people, and I can't stand these people in my in the sport of tennis because they just are engineered robots, fun to watch and amazing at this skill set. But then it's like, what else life is this, you know, buffet of emotions and interests and hobbies and people in my opinion, and they's just not how they live their life. What what? What nationality is Max? He is Dutch and he was He was the first Dutch Formula One driver to ever win

a Grand Prix. They fucking love Max for staffid in back in the Netherlands, like they are obsessed with him. They're a small country. They go very hard for their athletes. Yeah, I got a couple of pictures here to show you. Uh looks like a race picture racing car driver. Uh, you know what, his face, it's just not the warmest, most likable looking face. I don't know what you're saying is Max is starting out at a bit of a

deficit for you. Actually, I did find some photos of him smiling for you, which might also be a little bit of a foreign look. So I have Max on the left it's him current day, and then on the right is when he entered F one as a teenager. It looks like the face is not meant to smile. It looks like like like if someone had to punch in into a computer software. Okay, Max, smile and the pressed enter. I'm being very hard on this young champion man. He looks so young, still got acne on his face.

But um interested to hear more about him because my initial reaction is like he reminds me of of a racing robot. You're not incorrect in terms of what other people have said. So to understand Max Verstappen, it's actually very important to understand his father, a man named Yos first Appen Yos Jos Yas Firs. Stepping actually was also a Formula one driver, though not a particularly successful one.

He's actually known for a race where back in the day, during pit stops, drivers used to come in get their tires change and actually refuel and on one such occasion his team pulled out you know, the the gas pump refueling stuff early and his car set ablaze with Yas for Steppen in it an interesting, interesting legacy to leave. But basically Yas has the son Max. And aside from day one that Max Verstappen is going to be the

F one driver, he never was. He's going to conquer the sport and and that's just how it's it's going to be. Stappen was quite an abrasive character, and he used that sort of aggression that you know parent on the touch line shouting at their child, screaming for them to get a goal. He used that psyche to to get the best out of Max to sta happened, and it was a harsh upbringing. I'm not going to assign

judgment on this, but just to list some things. He has been accused of assault and domestic violence by several former partners, including Max's mother. Uh In twelve, he was actually arrested on attempted murder charges for allegedly trying to run over the next girlfriend, though those charges were eventually dropped. And I will say the way that Max talks about his childhood, it's very awkward in that Max will describe

it in very folksy nostalgic terms. But then the stories he's telling, you're just kind of as an adult sitting there like what so. For example, he was once left to the service station because he didn't win a race, and then his mom had to come and pick him up. He also proceeded to for the week following this incident not talked to Max. Now it tears a plenty in that household, but it brought him into this category of being one of the best sports people we've seen in

form in a one. Well, now I feel terrible for what I said about Max, because he might be an excellent racer, but what he probably needs is a hug from dad on, some unconditional love. Probably a little therapy, but they all need therapy. But yeah, so, yeah, so I think that adds a little more context to why Max is the way he is. I will say, though, that y'as didn't turn out to be correct, that he was a very very good driver from a young age.

I mean, he was racking up wins left and right all the way back when he was a kid krding. I think he first took him out, first took Max out to kart when he was four or four and a half years old. He's one of these you know,

from the very beginning was was a racer. And he has the interesting distinction of remember when we talked about how there are these quote unquote lower lower formulas that you work up from F four F three Formula two, so Max actually went straight from Formula three to Formula one. So he skipped Formula two, and he to this day is the youngest uh F one driver to ever start a race. He was seventeen years old, and then he ended up becoming the youngest driver to ever win a

Grand Prix when he was eighteen years old. You are a race winner. Fantastic, what a trade debut, Thank you very much, Christian. So he's a guy who's been golden boy, especially in this one particular team structure since day zero. Pretty much interesting. I like him more and I sympathize with him more now that I know the history, which is which is probably how it is with every human on earth. So practice empathy today, ladies and gentlemen. You never know who the Max for staffands are in your

own lives. Uh So, Okay, this probably also doesn't surprise you that Max as a driver can be a little aggressive, more than a little aggressive. That's what he is. Ridiculous heratistically, honestly. And he's also though known for being one of the fastest I mean even again when he was carding, when he was when he was in these lower formulas, was just always known for his speed, and there was a lot of belief back then that even though he would

ash or make mistakes. It was like, hey, we can we can really hone this kid's skill and keep the speed and lose all the other the other stuff on the flip side. Max, in addition to being pretty matter of fact, as we've discussed a little bit automaton at times, he has an extreme dislike for the media. Max. Well, i've you had so many accidents. I don't know, and like I said in the beginning of this press conference,

I got really tired of all the questions. So yeah, I think if I get a few more ahead about someone speaking of this Netflix show Drive to Survive, that kind of periodically comes up. He actually declined to participate in season four because they create fake storylines and fake rivalries and he did not like his portrayal. And of course there is some debate over if the portrayal was inaccurate or not. That's a debate everyone can have. But

I will say everyone wants you to start streaming. He does get along with quite a few of the drivers around his own age on the grid. He does do twitch streams with them. I love you he can, so I wouldn't say that he's like a disliked character universally particularly by his peers who actually have to race against him. Good luck, don't don't cry. No, I'll try not to, and I'll see We're gonna take a break and we're right back. Max is the defending world champion, right, Okay?

So it I mean, are we rooting for him to defend? Do we like Max, does the sport like Max? Or is he kind of the you know, ugly champion and everyone's kind of hoping someone more marketable comes through. There was a lot of controversy over this, and I'm gonna try to explain it as suscinctly as possible, because when I say they're a little podcast like shows dedicated to this incident or last season series of incidents that led to Max being world champion, like, it would take take

a lot of time, you know. And I'm going to also try and say this in a way that doesn't offend everyone who was, in fact a fan who watched last season. So, as we were talking about, Red Bull went through some years where they weren't really in championship contending mode, but in one they finally have a car that is capable of keeping up with Mercedes, and for the first time in many years, there were two separate drivers from two separate teams who were in fact dueling

for a championship. Lewis and Max go back and forth the whole season in terms of who's winning, who's up in the points. They have two major crashes that are also hotly debated to this day. One, for instance, involves Max going yet over uh fifty I think it's fifty one g forces into a wall at Silverstone. You then have Max basically crashing over Louis and that little, uh, that like circular thing called the halo that you see over the cars that saved Louis from having his head

crushed by Max's car. The fans are just bit like feral at this point. Racist messages, including monkey emojis and other racial abuse came off to Hamilton's fought back from a ten second panel. Racist abuse directed at Lewis Hamilton's is unacceptable, and we've removed a number of comments from Instagram. The one thing I think all fans can agree on is that race control. You know, the f I A these kind of people who govern over the sport. We're really not set up to referee or moderate a good

championship battle. They hadn't had one in years there were a lot of inconsistencies about certain penalties being called for certain drivers or teams or situations not others. People were not fans generally of how the season was reft, so to speak, and so we somehow end up, through a variety of means, getting to the last race of last season and Lewis and Max are completely tied in the points. Yeah, perfect storm, right, you're just sitting there. It was must

must watch TV. I was in Costa Rica for a wedding, and I was up after the wedding, you know, the next morning like six and am to watch what was about to unfold. We've been waiting for this whole season long, the finale, the title decide under the lights here and abbys abby. It slides down away. Lewis is ahead, He's doing well for much of the race. For the first you know, fifty or so laps, it's really looking like

a Louis win. Then with only a couple of laps to go in the final race of the season, a driver from your Darling team Williams, a man named Nicholas Latifi crashes and when there's a crash where they need to clear the debris, in the car and make sure the driver's okay. They usually issue what's called a safety car. Basically the drivers have to slow down. You know, it forced them to get to the side of the track. They can't be passing anyone. You know. The whole idea

is to keep the race going. Why aren't we getting these from lap cars out of the way and just keep close Christian, just keep me a second. You know, Lewis is in first place, Max is in second, but Max, because of where they were in the race, is actually behind several cars who Lewis had lapped, and so normally, you know, it takes a little time, even if you're faster on these cars to get around them. That's just

how race car driving works. What ends up happening is that the race director, this guy named Michael Massey whose name is now living in infamy. Essentially, Michael Massey makes a call where he allows Max to kind of go ahead of these lap cars and not they call it unlapping themselves, so he doesn't have to fight around them

because they're on the last lap of the race. This confusion, but the safety car is coming in at the end of this lap, so they those backmarkers allowed, So I would say the safety car, and Michael Massey makes this decision because they want a race to actually happen. And the big problem with this for Stefan has the faster, fresher tires. We've talked about tire strategy and all these other things that go into a Formula One race. So

Max actually has fresher tires than Lewis. So obviously, given that his tires are a lot newer, he's able to pass Lewis Hamilton's on the last lap. He's gonna make the luge inside how about it? Says it coming, it's a light large barbs dapper and wins the Formula One Championship for the driver's title. Let's started with controversy, has

ending with controversy. Biking no no. Mike Mercedes still wins the Constructor's Championship, but he denies Louis his eighth world title, which would make him the winningest driver in in Formula history definitively, and that's Max's win. The problem is his his world title for season comes with this weird asterisk, right, Yeah, Like it's this weird sort of setup where it's like, well he's not even allowed. Yeah, So this has created a lot of a lot of drama after the fact.

We're breaking news to bring you from the world of Formula One. This time the f i A say that Michael Massey has lost his role as the current race director. They put him in another position in the f i A. He's just not race direct right. Yeah, but I mean this, this doesn't matter to me. If you're a race director, the head of Formula One, there should just be systems in place that that doesn't even allow that. That's like saying, Okay, NBA teams, we had someone run on the court, but

now you get ten extra points. I mean it's just nuts. Yeah. That being said, did Max do anything wrong? I think no one would would argue that Max isn't capable of winning a World Driver's title. Right. He was right in there all season. He's had some phenomenal races. Just a fast guy. And look, I also personally, just speaking for myself, I do not fault Max for taking advantage of the situation he was given, right, you gotta he did. He'd

exactly what they said there. I think you can you can get past these cars having to fight them for it. You know, he had fresher tires, which again was just a lucky strategic call and it it was just one lap left. There's one lap left when the safety car was taken out. Also, Lewis allowed himself to be overtaken. Well, he was just not his car wasn't gonna be as fast as with

tires that were old. So so then you could make the argument, and I'm playing Devil's advocate both sides here, you can make the argument that Max and his team managed the car are better exactly. Yeah, I can just say they lucked out. They're able to get new tires on at a time. You know, they obviously don't know that Nicholas latif he's going to crash into a wall with a couple of laps left. So that's I would

say Max's deal. So in terms of how Max is doing coming into this two season, I will say he had a rough start the first race. Both Red Bull cars end up not finishing, and Max was understandably not pleased as the rating world champion who already has a little bit of a chip on his shoulder coming in as of this recording. Things got a lot better after those first couple of races. He has been called dominant

by some in the press this season. There's still a lot of two season to go, so it's definitely too early to just call it. But I think if Max was hoping to have a season where no one could dispute that he was the champion, He's definitely on his way to getting there where there wouldn't be a single asterisk or any weirdness or a keyness around him taking that title. We'll be right back after this break. It

will be faster than a red bull pit stop. Who's on the other side of the garage, So across the garage we have Sergio Checko Perez, who has a completely different vibe than backs for staffing in every way, shape or form. So the quick stats Checko is thirty two years old as of this recording. He is a father

too too soon to be three kids. He's married, and he's from Mexico, and that's a big deal for many reasons, including sponsorship wise, checko career in general has been largely funded by Carlo Slim, the billionaire, and a lot of his companies sponsored Checko, so you'll see the Claro logo on all sorts of stuff over the years. That's also been actually a reason why Checko has sometimes been preferred

over other drivers by teams. Is Hey, this guy's gonna bring all this money, especially money that we don't necessarily see into the sport. You mean Latin American money, exactly. Yeah. So you know, Carlo Slim isn't sponsoring any other drivers in the same way he's sponsoring Checho Perez. Uh. Something else about Checko He is very Catholic. At one point he kept a photo of the late Pope John Paul

the Second in his F one car. Yes, baby, you know what, whatever keeps you safe, whatever it gives you that little bit of edge you have, it's superstition or something like he it seems to work for him. He's has one of the longest careers currently. Yeah, I love that about him. I love that he's thirty two. I love that family seems to be important. And this is

based off of what you've just told me. I don't really know what these guys do them their private time, but so yeah, So, as I said, Checho has one of the longest running careers, especially enough one right now. So he's been in the sport for well over a decade, which, again, in a sport where every race could be your last is pretty impressive. Impressive. Why has Checko stuck around for so long? Really? Why has Checho stuck around? So? A couple of things. One, he does have great sponsorship with

people like Carlo Slim. So if you're bringing in money, you know you can afford to have a little more wiggle room in terms of if things aren't going perfectly or super swell. But what do you mean you're bigging in money because because it's not like the Formula One gets the money from from Slim, you're saying because he is funded or because he makes money from the endorsements that somehow I don't understand. So a lot of times these sponsors for individual drivers, that money goes to the team,

So they bring in money for the teams. They might say, you know, hey, Carloston will say I'm gonna give Red Bull thirty million dollars or whatever it is, and they'll say, okay, that's that's a huge chunk of change. That helps a lot exactly. So so if you have some of these sponsors, it can just get you a little bit more more time if things aren't going well. He's a driver who came into Formula One as a page driver, He didn't get into forming one purely based on you know, office talent.

This is f one expert I'll just kevlowskis. But the reason why I'm a fan of him is that very quickly we realized this guy is not here just off the back of his money. He has got talent, and no one calls him a paid driver anymore. The way he's been going around teams, he has been there for a reason. He had to grind his way. He's not a household name like a maximust happen. But yeah, he finally got into Red Bull, you know the team that is basically Max's team. Everyone knew it, there's no kind

of denying it. So check is known as a very consistent driver and a well rounded driver, but in particular he can be really really good at defending pack up, brilliant job, brilliant the stuff. And he's also very good at things like tire conservation, which means if they say, hey, Checko, we need you to kind of last out on the track, we we can't pit stop you for another like twenty laps and and you know this will help our strategy,

particularly to help another driver win. We need you to just make sure, you don't, you know, blow through your tires or do something, you know, make them too cold or too hot. He's very good at just staying out there and doing whatever they need him to do. So for a team, you know, having a reliable, consistent, solid driver who you know might not be the you know, a Max for Staffen in terms of quickness, but but

it's still very fast and can do well. You know, having that that reliability can be super great for a team. So what makes the Checko and Max dynamic very interesting is the fact that they actually get along. It's been really enjoyable working with Checko. I think we respect each other a lot. We helped the team forward because we always trying to love for the same thing. It's been a really enjoyable ownership. Yeah, seems like Max is definitely

benefiting from this relationship. Obviously, I'm sure about to be like,

what does check out of it? But so, what's interesting about Red Bull They've always had issues with their two drivers not getting along, having you know, inner team rivalries, having them you know, funk up each other's races and whatnot over these rivalries, and and all of these issues only multiplied when Max for Staffen came in as this chipper young teenager, and Red Bull made it very clear that this was their dude for like the foreseeable future, Like they were putting all the eggs in the Max

for Staff in basket. So, as we've discussed, most teams have a number one and number two driver, and that's kind of the dynamic, and understandably, most people do not want to be a number two driver. You wouldn't be an F one unless you were gunning for that world title. There's no point in being in the sport. So what started to happen is a very popular driver named Daniel Ricardo, who will meet very very soon. But Dania Ricardo was

a longtime Red Bull driver. He was part of their you know young driver development program, very well known and very well liked by the public. He announces he's leaving, and a big part of that reason is he started to feel like despite his own successes, despite being older than Max for Staff, in having more wins, etcetera, he was being kind of edged out and kind of made

to be the number two. So Daniel Ricardo leaves kind of somewhat unexpectedly, Red Bull fills that seat with another driver who we will talk about soon named Pierre Ghastly. Uh remember when we said that Red Bull will happily just yank people from seats. Well, Pierre had a rough start taking over that number two seat to Max, and he is yanked, not even necessarily like halfway. They proceed to put another driver who now actually races for your

team Williams, named Alex Alban. He also, like the revolving door continues. He's out within a year and a half, and interestingly, both Alex and Pierre their careers did suffer as a result, so Pierre was dropped down to that sister team which then was called Toro Rosso now Alpha Towery. Alex Alban actually was taken out of the sport of f one for a year. He's only just come back, so so their careers were damaged by that would then be can't became known as the cursed number two seats, right,

the cursed Red Bull number two seat. So of course Red bulls aware that they're starting to get this reputation. They also are aware that, hey, it seems, you know, this is just not us. Pulling from our current stable of drivers is not working out quite well. So they pull a very interesting move and they bring in Checko. I think if you go into its team knowing that you are a number two driver, there is something about that in your headspace that makes it acceptable to you.

That was Jenny Go again. You know you are there is a supporting role, and at Red Bull they clearly define that. I think Sergey Paris knows that he is fortunate to have found himself in a championship winning car. He's getting paid a lot of money to be there, and some drivers can make peace with that better than others. Now, whether Paris has made peace with that entirely, I doubt it, but you never know. Maybe I just googled check out Pere's salary and it says eight million a year, and

it says Max million a year. Yeah, and they think it's more for Max, now okay, and you know there's still endorsements. I mean, he's the other thing is getting paid very well. Yes, I mean I would be second fiddle for a lot less than that. But the reason I'm not first fiddle in anything is because I don't have that ego that that gets you in informing the one seat at all um. But I do think as you get older, as you have kids, you start to go, I love racing, I love my job. I love the

collaboration of a team moving towards a specific goal. And maybe it also I love eight million dollars. I'm sure, Checko, I'm sure all that plays in totally. He's a real team player as a driver. Motorsports journalist Hazel Southwell, people who've seen Drives five might not realize this because it wasn't quite portrayed very well in the show. Um, he's also someone who has managed to not get totally crushed by the existentially destructive experience of being Max Verstaffen's teammate. Um,

which you know he's the first. Yeah, like I said, it will be interesting to see at what point Red Bull says, Hey, we're ready to kind of dip back into our pool of young talent. And I've always said it's going to be interesting when they find the new max for stepping and current max for stapping is no longer the it guy. What happens, It'll always be interesting in sport when the max for stapping is then asked

to become the Checho Perez. That'll always be fun. So, Michael, we have spent two episodes now talking about Red Bull. You now know about two teams on the grids the way there. First of all, what do you think of Red Bull as a team, and what do you think of these drivers? That's that's the that's my empty red Bull. I finished a Red Bull this episode. I don't like Christian. He seems like a whiny over ACTI team principal. Uh Max,

I'm not in love with either. Okay, to be specific, he seems like a lot of these tennis kids I grew up with that all they knew had it was to play tennis. But then you'd ask them the most simple question, like locate England on a map, and they don't even They couldn't do anything. They couldn't do anything else. Right now, I'm just really distilling it down here. Love

the Checko Perez character. Love that he's a family man, Love that he's willing to play defense for the young up and comer who who you know, has already arrived in a lot of ways. I love a great team player, and I find it interesting that you you like I don't know if i'd say both George and Checho are underdogs, but these sort of not the champion dies on both for sure. I mean, I I like the people that get the least amount of credit that I think really

do the dirty work. I have always liked those people in sport, the Scottie Pippens, you know. Uh, and I hope they sleep well at night because they are world class at their endeavor. But they're just not getting the same credit that the other person. So I find it all very interesting. And what I do love about the Red Bull team is that this is not Lexis, this is not Mercedes, this is not Croquet. This is a working class energy drink for truckers, do you know what

I mean? So I like, I really do like that. Uh. And I also think Christian is doing a lot of what team principal head coaches need to do, which is I am gonna lead by example for the belief in the competitiveness that I want you to have. So he's very you know, extroverted in his display of that. So he leads by example. The question is if we like the example. Yeah, I don't know if I like the example, And I think it's a lot of bark. But uh, but I can see now thanks to you, Lily, why

this Mercedes Red Bull rivalry is really fun. Yeah. Yeah, it's just so different in a lot of ways. So how are you feeling when you compare a Mercedes to a Red Bull? Yeah? Well, I I used the word class and I said that I felt like Team red Bull was lacking that. And I would probably still stick with that, and I would say that Mercedes probably on on brand for them, feels like they they have class. If I had to pick between these two teams right now,

I'm going to contradict myself. I would probably go with Mercedes. Is that interesting? Not? Need to need more? I need? I need more teams. You need, need more teams, I need more teams. Um, I've got a feeling I'm going to pick a different team than these two. Well, you know, we don't rock into Williams for a while. Yeah, I know, But I like Williams, but I have no idea why I like. So who's next week? So next week we have our final two parter and we're talking about the

most historic team on the grid, not Williams. We are talking about Ferrari. Yes, I mean I used to have Ferrari posters up in my bedroom as a kid. There we go. So Ferrari is the only team on the F one grid that has participated in every single year of the official Formula One Championship going back to So we've got a team with history, we've got some very

very hot Italian tempers, we've got controversial leadership. We have got an interesting pairing of drivers who are probably the most evenly matched on the grid, which is going to create some some fireworks. And they actually have a car that might challenge for the championship this year. So we've got a really fun two episodes coming all about the most venerable team on the grid theoretically. I can't wait

to learn about it. Excellent. This has been Choosing Sides f one, a production of Sports Illustrated Studios and I Heart Radio. The show was hosted by Michael Costa and Lily herb. This episode was produced by Lily Herman and our senior producer hi Mi Taal, who also did the sound design at the Cutting Room Studios. We are recorded by engineer Robot Leary. The second mastering by Cello Weisblu. Max Miller is the executive producer and Brannan get Us

his head of Audio at s I Studios. At I Heart Radio, Sean Titone is our executive producer for more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, and don't forget to rate us and tell your friends. It'll mean a lot