Mindset & Mental Wellbeing w/ Shannon Mick: Unlocking the Potential to Transform Your Ultra Running.

Well , what if the key to unlocking your potential as a slower runner like me lies in the way you approach mental wellness and training ? You're listening to Choose to Endure the show dedicated to the back of the pack runners , where we share uplifting stories , interviews , gear and training tips specific to the tail-end heroes of the Ultra universe .

My name's Richard Gleave . I've been running Ultras now since 2017 , and I've taken on and finished numerous distances , all the way up through 220 miles , and I am unashamedly a member of the back of the pack , just like you . With me today .

To help shine a light on those questions , and maybe more , is the wonderful Shannon Mink from Finish Stronger Mindset and Mental Wellness Coaching .

Shannon has over a decade of experience working as a counselor in the mental health field and eight years of experience as an ultramarathon runner , so she noticed there was a need for mindset , work , mental wellness skills and race strategies in the ultrarunning community .

So she branched out into coaching and today she runs a private non-clinical practice and coaching business . She's a mom . She wears many other hats and continues to train for and race in ultras . So if you're ready to dig in and explore the power of the mind , don't go anywhere . We'll be back in just a flash .

And I'm sure you've heard of fixed mindset and growth mindset . So here's a couple examples that , specifically , ultra runners back of the Packers might have . So fixed example is's I can learn to do anything . I want A few more examples , so here's a fixed one . That's just who I am . I can't change it .

And then growth If you have to work hard , you don't have the ability . That's a really big one . Switch it to growth . The more you challenge yourself , the smarter you become . So racing smarter , implementing strategies , knowing how to tackle a course better .

Let me register for it .

And if we're convincing ourselves before we've even started we are definitely not doing ourselves justice . I don't think getting out , even getting I mean even getting onto the starting line of some races is a challenge in of itself .

Going through all of that training and going through that mental prep and just having the courage to stand on the starting line , no matter what happens after that , I think , is a big deal to a lot of us .

So , yeah , making sure that mindset is good from the outset and is allowing us to go do the physical challenge that comes after it in addition to the mental stuff , I think that's really , really cool .

So you want to focus on your preparation for your races and not always just focus on that end result of the race , because you don't want to miss all of the little details along the way . So focus on the journey , not the end result . Second thing is to incorporate the word . Yet you just haven't mastered it yet , the word .

Yet it suggests to us that , despite any struggles , you can still overcome anything . And then two more things pay attention to your words and your thoughts . Replace negative thoughts with positive ones . It helps to think realistically as well . And then the last one is to take on challenges .

And you know we do this so that we can make mistakes and we can learn from them . Embrace the challenge and we can learn from them , embrace the challenge .

And next time I go to do this , I know I need to pack an extra shirt or some extra socks or whatever it needs to be if the weather's like this . No , I need to pack an extra shirt or some extra socks or whatever it needs to be if the weather's like this .

But yeah , just allowing ourselves the time and a bit of grace to make those mistakes , and as long as we learn from them , I think it's okay to do that . In fact , you probably learn more from that than you would if you succeeded .

If you succeed , you probably learned that you did the right thing in that race , in that moment , in that particular instance , and that's great too . But yeah , I definitely I'm more inclined to learn from the failure stuff , I think , than I succeeded this time .

That was cool , but I'm not sure that that gives me quite as much growth opportunity mentally , as the failure does for sure .

I just sat down a mile from the finish of the race and I was just I've a step for I don't know , probably 10 minutes . I just sat down a mile from the finish of the race and I was just I had enough and I thought no , I'm not doing this anymore .

And uh , and a lady ran by me and said , um , what are you doing sitting there , like so I , you know . I told her I was done . She said you're not done , you're done when you get to the finish . So she's like get up and get to the finish and then you can sit down . And so , oh gosh , wow , okay .

And immediately my head flipped and I was like , well , she thinks I can get to the finish . So I now believe I can get to the finish . But yeah , it's the stories and the feelings I think that we associate with those things that really stick with us and help us push forward .

I'm curious how , as slower runners , how do we manage and overcome a lot of those negative thoughts and the self-doubt that we have , like myself , on that step during these long races ?

Are there some techniques we can use or practice in advance that would allow us to sort of , I guess , first of all , recognize because this is where I struggle recognize that I'm in that negative thought zone .

It's hard to identify negative thoughts when we're not racing as well . So I mean , it's just something that takes practice in itself , but reframing those negative thoughts into realistic ones , positive thinking . Now , people usually just say just think positively , just think positively . Yes , so positive thinking is actually a byproduct of thinking realistically .

Oh , interesting . Yeah . So if your negative thought is you're going to miss the cutoff time , you're going to reframe that thought into something realistic and then it's going to make you feel positive about it . So then you say keep moving forward and continue the effort . You have a chance of making it , Don't give up , Okay . And then here's another example .

So you can't expect to just go out and race and to be able to do all these strategies . You have to practice them during your training Like , how do you talk to yourself Whenever you're doing some hard repeats or hard effort , running , anything like that , your long run , what does that sound like and how are you handling that ?

I came up with a handful of my favorite strategies and , again , things that I love to teach people . So the first one is that positive self-talk , so saying things like you got this relentless forward , progress , dig deep , you're fine . That's my favorite one . To tell me myself .

I'm usually so tired and all I can think of are like two words and it's you're fine , you're fine , you're fine .

Yeah , like acknowledge it's tough to work on , but just keep after it and monitor your progress and celebrate your wins . And so then a second strategy is to break down the course into manageable chunks . So running aid station to aid station , tree to tree , rock to rock . Think of if you have an out and back race .

So you say if I can run out , then I can run back . Or if it's a looped course , get through this loop and then there's only one loop left . So really chunking that race down into mentally manageable pieces , down into mentally

manageable pieces . And then the third one is to practice mindfulness . And this goes back to kind of like what you were saying about with the other question , with the negative thoughts . So we're better able to pinpoint our thoughts and physical sensations , emotions .

So mindfulness , what it is , it is being fully present in the small moments , on purpose and non-judgmentally . And you can even practice this in your home and again during your runs . But I like to tell people , start practice this at home , and it can be as simple as when you go to the bathroom and you wash your hands .

Practice focusing on just washing your hands and what that looks like , what it feels like , what it sounds like , what it smells like You're engaging all of your senses and just washing your hands . So you're participating fully and you're being present . And if you have a distraction , just realize that distractions are a part of our life .

We're distracted all the time and it's kind of terrible , but you know that's just the part of life . and uh , you know , be nonjudgmental of it , because that distraction is just the reminder to return to focusing on washing your hands .

This is one I particularly like and this is one of the time trying to actively do as much as possible right now in in life , in work , in my actual job , in addition to to the uh well , I , I made an active choice to try to be mindful and present as much as I could in the race that I recently ran , which is a big , long race , and so I I was like

I'm not going to think about how long this is , I'm not really going to think about , or I'm going to try not to think about where I am on the course , necessarily in relation to anything else , like oh my gosh , I've run 60 miles , or oh my gosh , I've got another 160 miles to go .

It's just I was doing as much as I can to okay , I'm just going to , I'm going to be where I'm at and I'm going to be as I am and I'm going to move to here , and then I'm going to be where I'm at there and as I am there , and I'm going to move to the next place or pole I did electric poles down the road , you know , I'm going to run to this

next one or I'm going to walk to and run to the next one and reevaluate or something . But yeah , the mindfulness , I think that really helps , especially the longer you go just trying to ignore all the stuff outside , all the other distractions , and just focus on what you're doing right now .

And you know , many , many small versions of that really add up over time and suddenly you find yourself 100 miles into a 200 mile race and you think , oh , my goodness , where the heck did that go ? I didn't even realize and I know that sounds weird , but it does happen , it really does .

So I love the mindfulness and for me , that's one I'm trying to participate in as much as possible , trying to actively practice , as you say , and I would definitely suggest , if you're listening to this , that would be a really , that would be one you can , you can jump into right now . Wherever you're at , whatever you're doing , you can practice that one .

It doesn't require you to be on a trail or in a race or anything . That's one that I think we should all be doing full stop .

So , like I said , our physical sensations , thoughts and emotions , yeah , yeah , I think that's fantastic .

So it can be a little bit confusing registering for a race and you're unsure if you can finish it . I say to consider what it would take to properly prepare , using , you know , say like SMART goals , and ask yourself what is the worst that could happen if you take a stab at it .

Really , whether you finish the race or you don't finish the race , you're going to learn something , and maybe you end up going further than you've ever gone before , even if you don't finish the race .

And suddenly now , I believe I think for me that's part of certainly my challenge , and maybe others too , I don't know , but believing self-belief , convincing myself that I can do these things , and then actually going out and either . And so I thought , oh , I wonder if I can go that one bit extra and do a 50K , you know , which is five miles further .

And so I did that and I thought , having done that , I wonder if I could do 50 miles . And in my head I was thinking they're both 50s . I mean , how much further can 50 miles be than 50K ? Well , it's actually a heck of a lot further , but I didn't realize that at the time , or at least . But that's the progression , right .

And so I've got further and further , and I think this is the way others work too , and it can work in race , just as it can when you're signing up for a race and trying to challenge yourself . Do I think I can make that next aid station ? I'm not sure . Oh , I'm going to keep going and I'll . I did make it , oh great . And this belief comes through .

So , yeah , I think , as long as your goals are I love the SMART goals acronym there as long as they're realistic and you have some chance of completing that based on known history and where you are , I think those can really help develop belief in yourself which then pushes you forward .

But you know I'm not out there , I'm not going to go win Western States , so that would be a not a realistic or a particularly smart goal for me to go chase , but maybe one of these days I would love to run a hundred mile race in 24 hours . That might be a much more realistic goal for me to chase and I think doing that really helps focus .

It helps put the mental side of things in place to say I think I could do that . What would I need to do ? As you were saying , what am I going to have to do to get there from a training and then a race day perspective and work those negative thoughts and the self-doubt out and replace with some of that growth mindset and self-belief instead .

So , whatever that small action step looks like , that definitely helps put that into forward motion . And again , like you're saying , then you go do it and then it just kind of breaks any negative self-talk that you have about yourself . I like to think of it as a narrative , like a story .

So like what kind of stories or narratives do we tell about us , about ourselves , throughout our lives ? And it's like very similarly with running as well . So breaking that down and just kind of proving it wrong .

So how important and we talk a lot about on the podcast here , about the trail community being one of the really cool things about trail running and ultra running , the other people that are doing this and how at least in our world at the back of the pack , it's a lot more about helping each other get to the finish , more so , realistically , than we're not

trying to win too much . So how important is the community aspect in building mental strength ? And what role does the sort of support networks from running groups or trail groups or other people that you meet along a , along an ultra race , on the course itself ? What role do you think those , those play in in the mental health of , uh of us slower runners ?

And then , of course , the third thing would be we're all suffering , we all hurt , and it's okay I'll hurt with you . You know , it's kind of like one of my DNFs at Whale Creek 100 . Me and my friend Joel were at Mile . Oh goodness , it was a really bad weather year .

Everyone remembers this year it will never be forgotten , because there was only like a 20% or lower finishing rate that year because of all the rain and mud we got .

And I just remember him and I being together for so many miles and we just felt like it was a death march and we knew that we had like , oh , eight , eight , yeah , eight miles to go until we got to the next aid station where we would miss the cutoff . So it was like we knew we were doomed anyway , but just like being there with each other .

And then so , like you know , it's dark and there's mud up our shins and it's cold , the wind is blowing and I think I saw some snow flurries and I was wearing like this very heavy jacket .

You know that was supposed to be like wind and waterproof , and I swear that wind was cutting right through it because I was getting hypothermic for like a second time in the race . It was just . It was just so awful sharing that terrible moment together and we come along some porcupines , and it was just so fun because you know you're running at night .

Well , I guess we couldn't really run , we were like hobbling , but you could hear the porcupines squeaking at each other and then eventually we came up right on , right on top of one . I mean , we could have just touched it if we wanted to , but that's a bad idea .

I mean it's incredible when you spend time with people on the trail , in the physical distress and the mental distress , everything , all the walls seem to fall down and you end up or at least I end up talking to people and having conversations like really deep conversations with almost strangers that become best friends over a course of hours on the trail , where you

know you end up sharing stories with each other that maybe you wouldn't ever share with even people close to you , and I just think it's an incredible thing to come away from a race knowing somebody like that and this has happened to me a few times and sometimes it's me sharing and sometimes it's other people .

But yeah , that whole , that sort of sense of shared trauma we're all going through this and all the walls come down and you end up feeling really close to people and having a really strong bond with other runners that you meet on the trail , I think it's fascinating .

But how about setbacks ? So when we do experience a setback a lot of times , even before we hit a race , things like injuries , or maybe we just had a bad race outright what advice would you have for runners who have gone through that , for them to help maintain a healthy mindset , maybe flip that around somehow ?

Continue to if you have to like , depending on what the setback is . Let's say it's an injury and you've got a race coming up in about three months . So , taking a step back , maybe you need to talk to somebody like myself , or maybe you need to hire a running coach , an ultra running coach .

Yeah , you I think reaching out for help is the number one thing and then kind of taking a step back from what you're doing . And I know it can be so hard to step back because we love running and we closely identify as runners , as ultra runners , and it's just a huge part of who we are and what we love . We're so passionate about it .

It can be hard to lose that and to even grieve over it . I think that as you go through injury , just know that resting is still progress . Focus on , say , strength work or something that you can still do to progress towards your race , depending on how severe an injury is .

Maybe you go see a physical therapist or a chiropractor or something you do strength work , yoga , be .

You just sit down and research your race and kind of get that plan together Like , all right , this is where my drop bags go , this is what I'm going to have in my drop bags , kind of review that sort of stuff , so pivoting from focusing on your injury to focusing on something else and still progress .

But you got to give yourself time to rest and to recover . And just you know it is time to practice patience and that's good . You know Patience it's a tool , it's a key . We use that when we race as well . So just kind of thinking of it slightly differently . Yeah , so just kind of thinking of it slightly differently .

Yeah , you're not in a good situation because you're injured , but what else can I do ? And then , resting , recovering , you're going to feel stronger . You should be able to rebuild yourself from that , especially if you're working with an ultra running coach .

From that , especially if you're working with an ultra running coach , they can help you get back to , maybe , depending on , like you know , the timing of your race after an injury , but get back to like pretty close to where you were . Yeah , those are my thoughts on that .

For me it would be going to the pub . I like to go to the pub . That's a nice mental release for me . So what a great opportunity to go to the pub .

Like in most cases anyway , it probably isn't permanent and so you can always come back to running and it'll always be there . And so I mean , even now , after the big race I just did . I mean I wasn't able to run for a while but I thought you know what ? That's a great . I'm going to do some . I don't have .

I don't feel like I have time for a lot of strength work as part of my training , and that's something I need to work on too and build some more in . But I thought , well , since I can't actually run , it's just not going to work right now . I'm just going to do a bit of strength work .

So , and that's been very refreshing and very different and not having to do the training and not having to get up at whatever time in the morning , it's been great to just kind of lie in and not have those feel like I have those responsibilities . So , yeah , just sort of again , make it work for you . You are in that position .

It's not going to change immediately in most cases . So what can I do ? Trading-wise , what's out there ? And you talked about comparing . I mean , gosh , how many times have we been on ? I don't know if you're on Strava or not , but you go on Strava .

I had to shut down looking at Strava almost completely , because you can get down a big rabbit hole comparing yourself to other people and , oh my gosh , this person is somebody . I think I should be right about that pace and they're doing this and I'm not , and it just it's a horrible way to do your training .

And so , yeah , I ended up avoiding Strava and I load it to see the cumulative data , but I don't look at anybody else at the moment . It's not healthy for me , yeah . Yeah , running without a watch is a great one too . I don't know if you've tried that , but just run without your watch . Just run . Don't know what time it is or what pace you're running .

Just go and run for a minute . Take one run a week where you don't take a watch with you or don't have anything . You just go out there and run whatever pace you like . It's totally fine , especially for back of the pack folks . I mean , we're not winning these races most of the time , it's okay .

But yeah , again , giving yourself space to do that kind of stuff , I think , is great yeah .

Better than trying to stick to any kind of set pace unless you're , unless it's really flat and concrete where you it's the terrain and weather is very predictable then I think trying to go for paces and I believe it or not , I did that in my first trail race .

That was one of the reasons I got to the point where I just sat down and said no , because I had run marathons like that and I just thought that's how you would run an ultra marathon too .

And so here I am on a ranch out in West Texas , with hills all over the place and rocks and whatever else , and I'm trying to stick to the same pacing strategy that I had used on a flat road marathon in Houston and it just didn't work . So it didn't work at all .

But I got to ask too since you talk about not being able to run without a watch how that would give you a lot of anxiety . And I agree with you , it would definitely give me anxiety , but I try to force myself to do it . But so , as an ultra runner yourself , how do you work through all of these things ? Are you able to apply these to yourself ?

How difficult is it to think through all this stuff yourself ? As a mental well-being coach , are you thinking of this kind of stuff when you're out on the trail , or how are you working yourself through this ?

You know , I have like an internal conversation and sometimes it's like even with my own clients , and it's just after being in the field for so many years the mental health field I've just that's kind of like one of the reasons why I opened up the coaching business , because I figured out , you know , like I saw what I do as a mental health counselor bleeding

over into my running and on my long runs and all of my approaches and things like that .

And you know , I'm looking at what other ultra runners are doing and I'm looking at sports psychology sort of stuff and I'm seeing like all these overlaps and but I'm also seeing my approach is slightly different and it's basically all of the things and then some that we've been talking about and it's just taken years of practicing them .

And then I just realized , oh yeah , I do this when I run . I want to teach it to other people because I see that it looks like it's possible . It just transfers over into our running , because it kind of just becomes a part of us rewiring our brains , fixing our fixed mindsets , you know , setting them to growth .

And what a great segue into hey , if somebody listening is interested in sort of engaging with you , shannon , where can they go to find some more information on your coaching business and what is it they can expect if they do want to work with you ?

I have a YouTube channel where I like to upload very random videos and it's kind of just my , my thoughts and and , um , you know , sometimes teachings , called random run chats . So those are usually around eight minutes long , where , where it's like I lose myself for eight minutes of my run and I'm just talking to a camera .

Do you want to tell us what song you picked and why does this one particularly resonate with you ?

I don't listen to music when I race , but I can still sometimes visualize that and it's so helpful and I think it makes me feel strong , it makes me feel tough and just it reminds me of what I love to do .

Excellent Well , shannon , super thanks for joining us today . Really interesting chat .

I know I have learned a ton on here and psychological aspects of ultra running that resonate really with us slower ultra runners , which might then set the stage for some deep and meaningful discussions , either with yourself , if you're out on the trail doing one of your random run thoughts , or your coach , if you have one , on the importance of your mindset and

your mental wellness and how it can really fit into your training and racing experience .

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