Unlocking Podcast Potential: Insights with Bryan Steele

Ep05 === Introduction to Bryan Steele and Podcasting --- [00:00:00] Catherine Brown: On this episode of Chief of Everything, we meet Bryan Steele of Forge Podcast Company. I have personally worked with Bryan several times now and I've also attended some of the workshops that he leads on how to think about podcasts, so I'm super excited for you to meet him. Podcasting is one of those things that I wish I'd started 10 years ago, [00:01:00] and I bet you do too, even if you weren't even in business. The Challenges of Starting a Podcast --- Catherine Brown: Then, let's face it, podcasting is one of those things that feels aspirational, but kind of impossible for the micro business owner. It is daunting to think through all the things that we have to do to bring these ideas to life. Bryan's gift to us in this interview is that he tells us about two buckets of things that we need to think through when we're thinking about launching a podcast. First, who's your podcast really for? And second, how will you get to episodes out into the world? Most of us attract clients through content. So I know this information is gonna be really valuable to you. Let's jump right in. Bryan, welcome to Chief of Everything. I'm excited to talk to you about podcasting. Bryan Steele: Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Catherine Brown: Thank you so much. I'm so delighted that we were introduced by some mutual friends and that you have become the [00:02:00] podcasting go-to person in the Good Humans Growth network. It's a joy to produce this podcast with you. So in this case, you're a guest and the producer. Anything else you wanna say about that? Bryan Steele: Well, we talk about wearing all the hats, so right. Catherine Brown: You are the chief of everything in the fullest sense. Bryan Steele: Okay. Catherine Brown: Okay, so just like for everyone else, we're gonna start with the question. That's the paradigm shift. Bryan Steele: Mm-hmm. Catherine Brown: do you think founders think about podcasts? That wrong early on, but it's probably actually the secret to scaling. Bryan's Advice on Podcast Content and Authenticity --- Bryan Steele: You know, like we talk about the myths and there are a million myths about podcasts and we could, probably spend the entire episode just talking about those. But thinking about, the one thing founders need to know is there's a fear around giving away. Your best stuff, right? Coming to the table and sharing your knowledge and your expertise. There's a desire to like say, I'm gonna hold something back because I [00:03:00] don't want to give it all away. I don't want to put it all out there in front of people. And I say that's the opposite of what you want to do. Authenticity is so important in a podcasting space. Give away your best stuff because as much as you might be surprised by it, you always have more than you think. And at the end of the day, even if somebody were to take all of your best knowledge, all of your expertise, and go try to do it themselves, they're never going to get the same results that they could get working with you. And so they know and they experience that. And so when they're hitting those struggles, they're hitting their challenges. they they know the first person, who they're gonna call, who's actually gotten them to where they are today. And so I always, I say, give away your your best stuff. Catherine Brown: You're reminding me we don't have permission to drop her name, so we'll just say our mutual friend. Success Stories and Building Trust Through Podcasts --- Catherine Brown: But you are reminding me about how I know that a podcast you produced a technical company that had a very niche [00:04:00] audience. I remember, and it just came to me while we were talking, that our, our friend, our mutual friend, said that they had a one call close because they had been giving away information over and over and over, and the person said, I've been listening to your podcast, and they contacted them and said, I've been listening. I understand this, this, this, and this, this my problem. I'm ready to go. Bryan Steele: And it's, it gets even crazier than that. In that situation, the person didn't even find them through the podcast person did the normal process of, of hiring a vendor, right? You find the website of the person offering a service. The website had the podcast on there. So after their first introduction. They went and listened to every episode. At this point, it was a brand new, it was a brand new podcast at this point, like five episodes out, right? Listen to the five episodes and says, this is who I wanna work with because you've now spent, I don't know 45 minutes an episode, 30 minutes an episode, something along along those lines. And they listen to all of them. They've already spent like. [00:05:00] Two, three hours with you and you didn't have a single coffee meeting, a single Zoom call. And so the level of trust that you can just generate through that sort of content is far more valuable than say a TikTok or a blog post you are in their ears with your voice and that just has a. Personality to it has a level of authenticity where they feel like they know you a lot better, understand your perspectives a lot better. So that's really where that power is. And yeah, take something that's a, you know, a six or seven sales cycle and then turn it around and it's like one extra call and they're done. They're closed. Catherine Brown: Wow. Thank you for filling that in. I didn't know those details. It's so wonderful. I love stories about sales cycles being impressed. That's the old sales trainer in me. So one of the things that we've talked about with some of the other guests that you've helped me interview on this podcast is we've talked about things that waste energy. And I'm gonna [00:06:00] kind of come at this question a little bit that way, and then you can take it where you'd like. Overcoming Imposter Syndrome and Starting Imperfectly --- Catherine Brown: think so much energy is wasted in the first several years of owning a business of people waiting and worrying about being ready. I feel like we don't ever think we know enough. think that. Maybe that's the same person as the person you described before, which is that they're afraid they'll give too much away maybe. Maybe that's not it. Maybe they have more kind of classic imposter syndrome and Bryan Steele: Hmm. Catherine Brown: who wants to hear from me? What do I really know? But they're just so much delay when it comes to forms of content teaching, potentially, especially podcasts. What do you wanna say to that? Bryan Steele: I mean, I can understand it because podcasting itself is a more vulnerable. Type of content you're creating, right? There's a less [00:07:00] layers of something to hide behind, right? It is your voice, and if you're doing a video podcast, that is your face. So I I, I understand that you would have that imposter syndrome all. Like, what, who am I to be here? I'm not ready. I'm not really a public speaker. The thing that is true, I think of pretty much anybody is, very few people are actually really gifted public speakers. Lots of people have very valuable pieces of expertise that they can share, and that to me is why someone engages in podcasting, not because they're good at it already, but they have something that can help somebody else, that can provide value. Get somebody a little closer to their goals for transformation or that. Aspirational future that they're trying to reach for or alleviate some pain or stress. Like all of those reasons are reasons to have and create that content for them. Now, I know people are not good at it [00:08:00] initially, but you get better. Like it's, It's not a one-off thing and then you're, oh, that went poorly. Like if most of the podcasts I listened to, if I went back and listened to episode one, yeah, I'm sure it's pretty rough Catherine Brown: That's what I was about to say. I feel like it's true for even famous people when you go listen to. those earlier episodes, they're not as good as they become later. It is a skill that can be learned. you have cases, Bryan, like, you know, everyone has a diary of ACEC. EO has blown up and all these people are listening to that. You probably know more about his story than I do, but what I understand is that no one was watching for three years when he was doing his basement. So he was at it three full years before he figured out the YouTube algorithm. Really, really, really. And he was studying the analytics and got really scientific about it Meanwhile had three years of practice too. So he has all these episodes. He's able to enlist more famous people 'cause it looks like more people are starting to listen and he's not a novice [00:09:00] he is gotta be better now too. Everyone gets better with practice. The Importance of Consistency and Evolution in Podcasting --- Bryan Steele: And it changes, right? Nobody, nobody starts one thing and says, this is how it's gonna be forever. I can't do something different. It evolves over time. You learn over time. You get better over time. You target your audience differently over time. And so you, you maybe experiment with a different segment. You go, I'm gonna do a solo episode. And suddenly you find out it's like, oh, actually I like that a lot better sharing what I know. Or maybe you decide, I'm just gonna interview people. You are never married to like one concept or idea. You can always shift and evolve. And I've seen that with podcasts I've worked with. I've seen that with podcasts I listen to. It's just amazing how you can evolve along with the format and continue to grow. Catherine Brown: start a new series. I can just experiment inside the one I already started. Bryan Steele: You've already taken the sweat equity to, you know, get your first 20 subscribers. Why would you try to start all over? Just say, Hey, I'm changing, I'm [00:10:00] learning things. And I think that the average podcast listener, the reason they're listening to podcasts is they want to change at the end of the day. And so they're not surprised when their host is the same. And in some ways that's, that is a compelling thing. Yeah, Catherine Brown: it gives them permission. I'm thinking as we're talking, Bryan, that maybe. Learning to do a podcast badly at first and then getting better. Maybe this is the metaphor for everything in the business. I mean, Bryan Steele: I mean, you. Catherine Brown: of bad at almost everything. When you first start the business. You are the chief of everything and you're a disaster. Let's be real, right? And then you get to be less of a disaster. And then eventually you're still the chief of everything. But you have a team you delegate. You can actually take two weeks off at Christmas, things like that because you have, practiced. Bryan Steele: Mm-hmm. Catherine Brown: feel like learning to be a podcast host and getting your content out there, it's like a little microcosm of that bigger world. Bryan Steele: Oh, absolutely. I, I a [00:11:00] hundred percent agree. You get into business because there's something you know and understand really, really well. There's a skill you've got that has a place in the market, right? I have a. Very, very specific skill around podcasting, and I figured there's a place in the market for that. But I didn't, I, you know, we had the interview with Dana. I don't know much about marketing, you know, in general, like overall for a business. I don't know anything about HR or sales. Like I am learning all of those things and I think there's, there's a healthy amount of like, I'm just going to learn what I need to know and get into it and figure the rest out. But you're not going to get better at any of those things. Not doing them and being afraid of them. I mean, even networking, right? That's, that's a skill. Catherine Brown: It is a skill. What will we say to that person who's listening and saying, but you don't understand. I, I wanna be perfect. I can't do this until I'm better. I'll be better next year. I'll be readier than. Bryan Steele: So [00:12:00] I got into podcasting backwards, right? I actually started out doing music production, and so I've got the nice microphones and the headphones and all the gear, and I'd work with artists, right? They're songwriters and they just want to have the perfect song, but the ones who actually get really, really good songs are the ones who get done. Then move on to the next one. When you continue to iterate around one thing in a vacuum, you get no feedback. You don't get no additional input, and you can't apply any of the lessons you learned to the next thing. So I always tell people, done is better than perfect. You have to finish to move on to the next thing, and version number two is gonna be better. And version number three is gonna be even better. The next song is gonna be better. The next LinkedIn post is gonna be better the next. Email campaign is gonna be better because until you do it and you start getting that feedback, you're not gonna know. So after you do podcast number one, [00:13:00] you get better for two and three, and by the time you get 20 episodes in, you're like, why was I so scared and worried about this in the first place? Catherine Brown: And. Some of our guests, I think it was Dana and maybe even another one on this podcast, talked about metrics, measurement, measuring success, things like that. So I'm, I'm building on that with what you're saying here and saying at first your metric is, I did it, I did my best, given the skills I have at the time, and that should actually be celebrated. kind of reminds me, Bryan, of when I did full-time sales training, I. I actually was a sales trainer during COVID and so many people who sold in person, I mean, they were just wrecked about what to do because they couldn't call on and just pop in on people, which had been their kind of old school way of operating and they were just absolutely lost about what to do. So we literally talked about how forms of outreach, like, in the [00:14:00] financial services. It was wildly popular as people were selling the banks, and the banks were busy doing SBA loans, and so they weren't answering their phones to vendors anyway. So writing a handwritten postcard and attaching some material and saying, here's how I can help you when you get on the other side of this round of SBA loans. Bryan Steele: Mm. Catherine Brown: Writing the cards became the metric. It was like, did you do the work? And it was such a long play because they were so frustrated and disappointed. This client was just crushed because they'd had these in-person appointments that had been set that now had to be canceled. But I said, we have to have a different measure of success. I literally said, I want you to be able to look across the table to at your partner tonight and say. I did my 25 outreaches Bryan Steele: Mm. Catherine Brown: I'm gonna do 25 more tomorrow and I'm gonna do 25 more. Because that was the best way they could do the reps given the constraints at the time. Bryan Steele: Well, I mean. Catherine Brown: it's just, go ahead. I just, that's how, that's just how it is. I mean, you are always constrained by something. Bryan Steele: [00:15:00] I think you're looking at leading and lagging indicators, right? So you're thinking of like it, we're recording this in January. I know it's, it's the episode's coming out later, but we're recording this in January. So everybody just went through goal setting and I sat in, you know, different rooms with business coaches and other entrepreneurs, and we're talking about goals for the upcoming year. I would hear people use goals that are what I would call a lagging indicator. It's like, I want my revenue to be X, Y, z. This year and I want to make an extra and I want this many more clients. And I sat there and I'm like, but that's not something I directly control. I don't have the ability to just say, that's my revenue. What I can do is exactly like you're saying. I'm gonna control the inputs. My goals are gonna be around the inputs. I'm gonna launch my podcast. I'm gonna send these postcards handwritten. I'm going to do these leading indicators. I'm gonna measure that and let that be success, and just trust that on the other side of it are. The results that I'm aiming for. Now, you, there's always a connection, right? [00:16:00] You, you want to evaluate and go, are these things really moving the needle? Is it, is it really helping? But you know what I tell people early on, it's, it's hard to really get metrics out of a podcast like Data Metrics. But what you can look at is like, what do people tell you? Like, you're gonna send that to everybody. You know that you're targeting the right kind of audience. You're gonna say, Hey, would you listen to this? I, I made this with you in mind. You're the person I'm thinking about with this podcast. What do you think? And they're gonna tell you. Yeah. And, and they're gonna say, oh. I love that and the best part is you, at some point you don't even have to ask for that feedback, right? You're still not, you know, like we talked about with Diary of ACEC, EO, it's three years before it really starts taking off, but you start to get a little bits of data. People email you on their own, they leave comments for you. To say, Hey, they send you a dm, like, oh, I listened to that episode. It, it like, I was like, did you make that for me? Like, that felt like that was for me. People feel understood and heard, and so you're starting to see some That's, that's some of the leading [00:17:00] indicators that I look for, and if I'm doing those things, it's like, keep plowing ahead. Keep plowing ahead. Yeah. Catherine Brown: things. Yeah, I love that. Okay, so. When to Start Considering a Podcast for Your Business --- Catherine Brown: My premise when it comes to founders and podcasting is I think we never start soon enough. I don't know that you would advise someone to start a podcast on their second day of business if they don't have an accounting system set up yet. Right. It's not really the first thing to do. And when would you advise them to start considering it? Bryan Steele: Once you are really starting to think seriously about your marketing execution, right? So we talked with Dana. He said, you know, really be thinking about the clarity, the strategy. How are you gonna be trying to reach people at that point where you're starting to get into the strategy and like, okay, I have. I have an offer, I have clients, I've got something that's working. Now I need to figure out what's gonna attract more. That's when podcasting starts to be, [00:18:00] is that the right strategy for you? And so I often walk through with like workshops and things like that, with groups where I'll say, Hey, let's think about who that audience is and how you'd be trying to help them through a podcast, what that ends up looking like. That's about the timing that I would. I would think about it when you're starting to think seriously, like do I do Google paid ads? You're setting aside some money for those marketing efforts. It doesn't have to be a lot. And maybe it's you're setting aside time for those marketing efforts, right? And you go, what am I gonna do? Am I gonna send cold emails? Or maybe I just get a USB microphone and I start trying it out for myself and just. See what works. Those, Those are different ways I think about it, but regarding your investment, when you're starting seriously to think about the time or the money that you need to invest in marketing, that's when I think podcasting can be very powerful. One of the things we didn't cover it. it was one of my other myths I was thinking about. I always hear it's like, oh, but it's too late. I am too late to podcasting. The latest numbers [00:19:00] are somewhere between four and 5 million. Podcasts are out there shows, which is a lot. It sounds like a lot. There are 600 million blogs on the internet. Catherine Brown: Wow. Bryan Steele: You're looking at, the volume of content is less than 1%. When you look at a podcast, so there is still a lot of space out there for that. I'm gonna one up it. 70% of podcasts never make it past their 10th episode, 70%. So you're just massively hacking off a bunch of those 4 million podcasts. Right out the gate, there's like 1 million left, so there's still opportunity. Catherine Brown: friend in our network who has a podcast and they're in the. Dozens and dozens and dozens of episodes now, not, you know, not, not more than 500, but like way past 20. [00:20:00] And once you get to that number, I mean this, they get to like top 8% pretty quick. I mean, it was, kind of stunning how the math works. Bryan Steele: There's, there's increasing levels. Like consistency really takes you to the top very, very quickly. Um, as far as podcasting, if you can figure out how to show up consistently and provide value, people get used to that routine, continue to come back for the podcast. The hard work is in that last couple of percent, right? When you're trying to get into the top. Three into the top one is, it's doable. I mean, with some effort and intentionality. Like it's it's not just a place for celebrities to be, I. Catherine Brown: Well, I even think about the celebrities I follow and or influencers, especially in the realm of personal development for entrepreneurs. I do feel like, to your point, earlier point about building trust, like I feel like I know how they would answer a question. I've listened so much that I could answer [00:21:00] for so and so and so and so and I like them more than I did the day that I started listening, which is why I keep listening. I also could tell you all the ways they're not perfect because some people still have a verbal tick. Bryan Steele: Yeah. Catherine Brown: have bad grammar, some people. Have a funny laugh. I don't know. Now I'm just making up stuff, you know, but they're, they're just people. They're Bryan Steele: And that that's why you do it. Catherine Brown: exponential success and they're still regular people that has encouraged me so much Bryan Steele: Hmm. Catherine Brown: how I have a sphere of influence and I'm going to show up faithfully and do my best imperfectly. And it's the consistency and the willingness to show up and do it imperfectly that really. me is the separator, like, are we serious about building this business or are we not? And you're not gonna do it perfectly. So you can't wait for that to hold, hold you back. Bryan Steele: I love [00:22:00] that, especially because one of the major moves in marketing lately is authenticity, right? The standard way of email funnels and lead magnets is struggling to convert. Just, I think, frankly, everybody's seen that so many times and they're, you know. Promotions folder in Gmail is completely slammed and they just never look at it anymore. I think that making a real personal human connection is what people are, are really gravitating towards. So you don't, you don't have, like, nobody expects you to be perfect. Nobody expects you to have polished stump speeches for these things. Now you have to develop some skills around carrying on a conversation and adding value. But I mean, the bar is not super high to get over. Catherine Brown: all learnable. Bryan Steele: Oh yeah. Catherine Brown: learned to do, you've taught me to do, I mean, and we'll just keep getting better, right? Like it's, it's all learnable. wrap up with this. Bryan's Workshops and Final Thoughts --- Catherine Brown: Bryan, I have had the pleasure of [00:23:00] attending some of the workshops you do, and I know that you like to have speaking engagements. You like to talk about this topic and I always wanna tell the world on your behalf in case you weren't going to Bryan Steele: that Catherine Brown: he, Bryan has ways he helps people overcome some of their own internal objections about. What would that podcast be? And I, how in the world would there be enough content to talk about that and who in the world would listen? And so talk a little bit about the structure of an average workshop, because I think a person could reverse engineer just by listening to the podcast and would be able to answer some of their own questions for themself if they're wondering, is this for me? Bryan Steele: Oh wow. Okay. Where to begin? Yes. I love having those workshops. I tell people there's really two aspects to podcasting. You need to understand if you understand those two pieces, you have a framework, you know, what you're getting into. So the first I would say is your strategy and your approach really clearly understanding who your podcast is for and [00:24:00] why people are going to listen. That's one of the workshops I've really spent a lot of time lately, and I'm gonna hopefully be doing a bunch more this year of them. Uh, but really. Catherine Brown: one is the plan of who is it for? Bryan Steele: Yeah, the plan of who is it for? who are you trying to help? And so we walk through those sorts of exercises and some workshops, and we brainstorm and we try to narrow down who we're trying to reach and how we're trying to transform their lives. How are we trying to generate change in their lives? If you do those two things, you understand who it's for and how their life is going to be. Different just as a result of listening to the podcast. Not because they hired you, not because they downloaded your lead magnet just from listening to the podcast. If you understand that now you can start to make decisions about other things. Like what do I title it? What's the description? What are some of those other strategic pieces? Is it just me talking or do I bring on guests? Because you can go back to that initial like, who am I trying to talk to and what is the [00:25:00] transformation? So that gives you a, a bit of a North star in that. Piece the other pillar. So that would be like your strategic piece. Really think carefully around that. If you understand that piece, it's worth getting started. The other piece is your production. What is it you're going to do to create routines and structures in your life to make sure that you can show up consistently? Because as we've seen in podcasting, you accelerate with consistency the more you show up just week by week. Over and over and over. You continue to generate more momentum over time, how much time do I have for recording? How much time do I need to prep the content for that episode? Or the questions I'm gonna ask my guests? How am I gonna go find those guests? How, what mechanism am I going to use to release the show? How much time am I gonna spend on editing? Who am I going to get help from to accomplish any of those pieces? Because you can, find. Help with [00:26:00] individual pieces to get you there. Or you can hire like an agency that's gonna handle all of it. Most of the time people are somewhere in between but think through those pieces. If you handle your approach for production, you're always going to have a way to make sure that you show up consistently. And if you think about those two things, the audience that you're helping and you show up consistently, I really honestly don't think there's any way you can lose. Maybe you need to evolve or shift over time to provide the most value, but I don't think any of that time is going to be wasted. Catherine Brown: That's so great. Thank you so much. So I'm predicting that some of the people who are listening are to think about that question and say, who do I love to serve? What is this random niche? And wouldn't you say, Bryan, I think it's kind of like I teach in peer advisory groups and referral groups that people wanna want to develop. I getting really getting into teaching people that. The more specific, the better because the person can raise their hand and say, this is for me. [00:27:00] And so I was joking that I live in Houston, Texas, so I was joking that I wanted to be friends with female entrepreneurs that lived inside Loop six 10. So I don't wanna have to drive very far. And we meet in person to eat Mexican food and we would talk about the podcast we listen to, but you can't be in the group if you don't listen to at least five hours a week. Bryan Steele: Ooh. Catherine Brown: people who are really gonna show up with stuff I don't already listen to or know. But you would know if you met that criteria, you would know if you were that same person. So I kind of think the weirder the better, don't you think? Bryan Steele: Oh yeah. I tell people you need, you need to try to come up with at least three distinctives and you just did it right there. Female entrepreneurs in Loop six 10 who love Mexican food and listen to five hours of podcasts per week. Catherine Brown: You could even break those last two apart, you'd say, and you have to be a podcast listener, and it has to be a lot. Bryan Steele: And it has to be a lot. Yeah. So I imagine that there's probably somebody listening to the show goes, there's, there's people like that. I want, how do I get in that group? Where do I sign up? Sign me up right now? Catherine Brown: [00:28:00] Exactly. And it's also true for podcasts Bryan Steele: Mm-hmm. Catherine Brown: even though it sounds like there's millions out there compared to all the other content on the internet, there's plenty of room for your very niche skillset. Bryan Steele: I mean, how many customers do you really need? Do you need an audience of 70,000 people? Probably not the right. 50 people. That can be powerful. Catherine Brown: right. Love that. I love that. Well, I appreciate you. Thank you for helping me with this and all the other podcasts that have been in our series, and I'm so pleased for people in the world to know how to find you. So where's the best place for them to find you? Bryan Steele: The best place is my website, forge podcast.co. We'll have a link in the show notes. Why? Because I'm going to be the one who puts it there. You can also look, look me up on LinkedIn. Sometimes I'm hosting a workshop or something like that, so I may have some more of those this year. So make sure [00:29:00] you're connecting with me there. And if you're going to grow conference, I'm gonna be there. So come say hi. Catherine Brown: Amazing. Thanks. Thanks, Bryan. ​ Okay, Brian, we were joking before we got on the call about, actually I should say welcome Brian Steele. Okay. I'm gonna do the longer intro, so I forgot. Okay. Um, Bryan welcome to Chief of Everything. I'm excited to talk to you about podcasting. Bryan Steele: Yeah, I'm excited to be here. Catherine Brown: Thank you so much. I'm so delighted that we were introduced by some mutual friends and that you have become the podcasting go-to person in the Good Humans Growth network. It's a joy to produce this podcast with you. So in this case, you're a guest and the producer. Anything else you wanna say about that? Bryan Steele: Well, we talk about wearing all the hats, so Right. Catherine Brown: You are the chief of everything in the fullest [00:30:00] sense. Bryan Steele: Okay. Catherine Brown: Okay, so just like for everyone else, we're gonna start with the question. That's the paradigm shift. Bryan Steele: Mm-hmm. Catherine Brown: do you think founders think about podcasts? That wrong early on, but it's probably actually the secret to scaling. Bryan Steele: You know, like we, we talk about the myths and there are a million myths about podcasts and we could, we could probably spend the entire episode just, just talking about those. But thinking about, the one thing I think founders need to know is there's, there's a fear around giving away. Your best stuff, right? Coming to the table and sharing your knowledge and your expertise. There's a desire to like say, I'm gonna hold something back because I don't want to give it all away. I don't, I don't want to put it all out there in front of people. And I say that's, that's the opposite of what you want to do. Authenticity is so important in a podcasting space. Give away your best stuff because as much as you might be surprised by it, you [00:31:00] always have more than you think. And at the end of the day, even if somebody were to take all of your best knowledge, all of your expertise, and go try to do it themselves, they're never going to get the same results that they could get working with you. And so they know and they experience that. And so when they're hitting those struggles, they're hitting their challenges. they they know the first person, who they're gonna call, who's actually gotten them to where they are today. And so I always, I say, give away your your best stuff. Catherine Brown: You're reminding me we don't have permission to drop her name, so we'll just say our mutual friend. But you are reminding me about how I know that a podcast you produced a technical company that had a very niche audience. I remember, and it just came to me while we were talking, that our, our friend, our mutual friend, said that they had a one call close because they had been giving away information over and over and over, and the person said, I've been listening to your [00:32:00] podcast, and they contacted them and said, I've been listening. I understand this, this, this, and this, this my problem. I'm ready to go. Bryan Steele: And it's, it gets even crazier than that. In that situation, the person didn't even find them through the podcast person did the normal process of, of hiring a vendor, right? You find the website of the person offering a service. Didn't know the website existed, but the website had the podcast on there. So after their first introduction. They went and listened to every episode. At this point, it was a brand new, it was a brand new podcast at this point, like five episodes out, right? Listen to the five episodes and says, this is who I wanna work with because you've now spent, I don't know, uh, 45 minutes an episode, 30 minutes an episode, something along along those lines. And they listen to all of them. They've, they've already spent like. Two, three hours with you and you didn't have a single coffee meeting, a single Zoom call. And so the level of trust that you can just generate through that [00:33:00] sort of content is far more valuable than say a TikTok or a blog post You, you are in their ears with your voice and that just, just has a. Personality to it has a level of authenticity where they feel like they, they know you a lot better, understand your perspectives a lot better. So that's really where that power is. And yeah, take something that's a, you know, a six or seven sales cycle and then turn it around and, and it's like one extra call and they're, and they're done. They're closed. Catherine Brown: Wow. Thank you for filling that in. I didn't know those details. It's so wonderful. I love stories about sales cycles being impressed. That's the old sales trainer in me. So one of the things that we've talked about with some of the other guests that you've helped me interview on this podcast is we've talked about things that waste energy. And I'm gonna kind of come at this question a little bit that way, and then you can take it where you'd like. think so much energy is [00:34:00] wasted in the first several years of owning a business of people waiting and worrying about being ready. I feel like we don't ever think we know enough. think that. Maybe that's the same person as the person you described before, which is that they're afraid they'll give too much away maybe. Maybe that's not it. Maybe they have more kind of classic imposter syndrome and Bryan Steele: Hmm. Catherine Brown: who wants to hear from me? What do I really know? But they're just so much delay when it comes to forms of content teaching, potentially, especially podcasts. What do you wanna say to that? Bryan Steele: I mean, I can understand it because podcasting itself is a more vulnerable. Type of content you're creating, right? There's, there's a less layers of something to hide behind, right? It is your voice, and if you're doing a video podcast, that is your face. [00:35:00] So I I, I understand that you would have that imposter syndrome all. Like, what, who am I to be here? I'm not ready. I'm not really a public speaker. The thing that is true, I think of pretty much anybody is, very few people are actually really gifted public speakers. Lots of people have very valuable pieces of expertise that they can share, and that to me is why someone engages in podcasting, not because they're good at it already, but they have something that can help somebody else, that can provide value. Get somebody a little closer to their goals for transformation or that. Aspirational future that they're trying to reach for or alleviate some pain or stress. Like all of those reasons are reasons to have and create that content for them. Now, I know people are not good at it initially, but you get better. Like it's, it's not, it's not a one-off thing and then you're, oh, that, that went [00:36:00] poorly. Like if most of the podcasts I listened to, if I went back and listened to episode one, yeah, I'm sure it's pretty rough Catherine Brown: That's what I was about to say. I feel like it's true for even famous people when you go listen to. those earlier episodes, they're not as good as they become later. It is a skill that can be learned. you have cases, Bryan like, you know, everyone has a diary of ACEC. EO has blown up and all these people are listening to that. You probably know more about his story than I do, but what I understand is that no one was watching for three years when he was doing his basement. So he was at it three full years before he figured out the YouTube algorithm. Really, really, really. And he was studying the analytics and got really scientific about it Meanwhile had three years of practice too. So he has all these episodes. He's able to enlist more famous people 'cause it looks like more people are starting to listen and he's not a novice he is gotta be better now too. Everyone gets better with practice. Bryan Steele: And it changes, right? [00:37:00] Nobody, nobody starts one thing and says, this is how it's gonna be forever. I can't do something different. It evolves over time. You learn over time. You get better over time. You target your audience differently over time. And so you, you maybe experiment with a different segment. You go, I'm gonna do a solo episode. And suddenly you find out it's like, oh, actually I like that a lot better sharing what I know. Or maybe you decide, I'm just gonna interview people. You are never married to like one concept or idea. You can always shift and evolve. And I've seen that with podcasts I've worked with. I've seen that with podcasts I listen to. Um, it's just amazing how you can evolve along with the format and continue to grow. Catherine Brown: start a new series. I can just experiment inside the one I already started. Bryan Steele: You've already taken the sweat equity to, you know, get your first 20 subscribers. Why would you try to start all over? Just say, Hey, I'm changing, I'm learning things. And I think that the average podcast listener, the reason they're listening to [00:38:00] podcasts is they want to change at the end of the day. And so they're not surprised when their host is the same. And in some ways that's, that is a compelling thing. Yeah. Catherine Brown: it gives them permission. I'm thinking as we're talking, Bryan that maybe. Learning to do a podcast badly at first and then getting better. Maybe this is the metaphor for everything in the business. I mean, Bryan Steele: I mean, you. Catherine Brown: of bad at almost everything. When you first start the business. You are the chief of everything and you're a disaster. Let's be real, right? And then you get to be less of a disaster. And then eventually you're still the chief of everything. But you have a team you delegate. You can actually take two weeks off at Christmas, things like that because you have, you've, you've practiced. Bryan Steele: Mm-hmm. Catherine Brown: feel like learning to be a podcast host and getting your content out there, it's like a little microcosm of that bigger world. Bryan Steele: Oh, absolutely. I, I a hundred percent agree. You get into business because there's something you know and understand [00:39:00] really, really well. There's a skill you've got that has a place in the market, right? I have a. Very, very specific skill around podcasting, and I figured there's a place in the market for that. But I didn't, I, you know, we had the interview with Dana. I don't know much about marketing, you know, in general, like overall for a business. I don't know anything about HR or sales. Like I am learning all of those things and I think there's, there's a healthy amount of like, I'm just going to learn what I need to know and get into it and figure the rest out. But you're not going to get better at any of those things. Not doing them and being afraid of them. I mean, even, even networking, right? That's, that's a skill. Catherine Brown: It is a skill. What will we say to that person who's listening and saying, but you don't understand. I, I wanna be perfect. I can't do this until I'm better. I'll be better next year. I'll be readier than. Bryan Steele: So there's, so I got [00:40:00] into podcasting backwards, right? I actually started out doing music production, and so I've got all, I've got the nice microphones and the headphones and all the gear, and I'd work with artists, right? They're songwriters and they just want to have the perfect song, but the ones who actually get really, really good songs are the ones who get done. Then move on to the next one. When you continue to iterate around one thing in a vacuum, you get no feedback. You don't get no additional input, and you can't apply any of the lessons you learned to the next thing. So I always tell people, done is better than perfect. You have to finish to move on to the next thing, and version number two is gonna be better. And version number three is gonna be even better. The next song is gonna be better. The next LinkedIn post is gonna be better the next. Email campaign is gonna be better because until you do it and you start getting that feedback, you're not gonna know. So after you do podcast number one, you [00:41:00] get better for two and three, and by the time you get 20 episodes in, you're like, why was I so scared and worried about this in the first place? Catherine Brown: And. Some of our guests, I think it was Dana and maybe even another one on this podcast, talked about metrics, measurement, measuring success, things like that. So I'm, I'm building on that with what you're saying here and saying At first, your metric is, I did it, I did my best, given the skills I have at the time, and that should actually be celebrated. kind of reminds me, Bryan of when I did full-time sales training, I. I actually was a sales trainer during COVID and so many people who sold in person, I mean, they were just wrecked about what to do because they couldn't call on and just pop in on people, which had been their kind of old school way of operating and they were just absolutely lost about what to do. So we literally talked about how forms of outreach, like, um, in the financial [00:42:00] services. It was wildly popular as people were selling the banks, and the banks were busy doing SBA loans, and so they weren't answering their phones to vendors anyway. So writing a handwritten postcard and attaching some material and saying, here's how I can help you when you get on the other side of this round of SBA loans. Bryan Steele: Mm. Catherine Brown: Writing the cards became the metric. It was like, did you do the work? And it was such a long play because they were so frustrated and disappointed. This client was just crushed because they'd had these in-person appointments that had been set that now had to be canceled. But I said, we have to have a different measure of success. I literally said, I want you to be able to look across the table to at your partner tonight and say. I did my 25 outreaches Bryan Steele: Mm. Catherine Brown: I'm gonna do 25 more tomorrow and I'm gonna do 25 more. Because that was the best way they could do the reps given the constraints at the time. Bryan Steele: Well, I mean. Catherine Brown: it's just, go ahead. I just, that's how, that's just how it is. I mean, you are always constrained by something. Bryan Steele: I [00:43:00] think you're looking at leading and lagging indicators, right? So you're thinking of like it, we're recording this in January. I know it's, it's the episode's coming out later, but we're recording this in January. So everybody just went through goal setting and I sat in, you know, different rooms with the different people, business coaches and other entrepreneurs, and we're talking about goals for the upcoming year. And I, I would hear people use goals that are what I would call a lagging indicator. It's like, I want my revenue to be X, Y, z. This year and I want to make an extra and I want this many more clients. And I sat there and I'm like, but I have a hard, like that's not something I directly control. I don't have the ability to just say, that's my revenue. What I can do is exactly like you're saying. I'm like, I'm gonna control the inputs. My goals are gonna be around the inputs. I'm gonna say, I'm gonna launch my podcast. I'm gonna send these postcards handwritten. I'm going to do these leading indicators. I'm gonna measure that and let that be success, and just trust that on the other side of it are. The [00:44:00] results that I'm aiming for. Now, you, there's always a connection, right? You, you want to evaluate and go, are these things really moving the needle? Is it, is it really helping? But you know what I tell people early on, it's, it's hard to really get metrics out of a podcast like Data Metrics. But what you can look at is like, what do people tell you? Like, you're gonna send that to everybody. You know that you're targeting the right kind of audience. You're gonna say, Hey, would you listen to this? I, I made this with you in mind. You're the person I'm thinking about with this podcast. What do you think? And they're gonna tell you. Yeah. And, and they're gonna say, oh. I love that and, and the best part is you, at some point you don't even have to ask for that feedback, right? You're still not, you know, like we talked about with Diary of ACEC, EO, it's three years before it really starts taking off, but you start to get a little bits of data. People email you on their own, they leave comments for you. To say, Hey, they send you a dm, like, oh, I listened to that episode. It, it like, I was like, did you make that for me? Like, that felt like that was for me. People feel understood and heard, [00:45:00] and so you're starting to see some That's, that's some of the leading indicators that I look for, and if I'm doing those things, it's like, keep plowing ahead. Keep plowing ahead. Yeah. Catherine Brown: things. Yeah, I love that. Okay, so. My premise when it comes to founders and podcasting is I think we never start soon enough. Um, and, and so for real, I don't know that you would advise someone to start a podcast on their second day of business if they don't have an accounting system set up yet. Right. It's not really the first thing to do. And when would you advise them to start considering it? Bryan Steele: Once you are really starting to think seriously about your marketing execution, right? So we talked with Dana. He said, you know, really be thinking about the clarity, the strategy. How are you gonna be trying to reach people at that point where you're starting to get into the strategy and like, okay, I have. I [00:46:00] have an offer, I have clients, I've got something that's working. Now I need to figure out what's gonna attract more. That's when podcasting starts to be, is that the right strategy for you? And so I, I often walk through with like workshops and things like that, with groups where I'll say, Hey, let's, let's think about who that audience is and, and how you'd be trying to help them through a podcast, what that ends up looking like. That's about the timing that I would. I would think about it when you're starting to think seriously, like do I do Google paid ads? Like right, you, you're setting aside some money for those marketing efforts. It doesn't, doesn't have to be a lot. And maybe it's you're setting aside time for those marketing efforts, right? And you go, what am I gonna do? Am I gonna send cold emails? Or maybe I just get a USB microphone and I start trying it out for myself and just. See what works. Those, those are, those are different ways I think about it, but, but regarding your investment, when you're starting seriously to think about the time or the money that you need to invest in marketing, that's when I think [00:47:00] podcasting can be very powerful. One of the things we didn't, we didn't cover it. It was, it was one of my other myths I was thinking about. I always hear it's like, oh, but it's too late. I am too late to podcasting. The latest numbers are somewhere between four and 5 million. Podcasts are out there shows, which is a lot. It sounds like a lot. There are 600 million blogs on the internet. Catherine Brown: Wow. Bryan Steele: You're looking at, the volume of content is less than 1%. When you, when you look at a, at a podcast, so there is still a lot of space out there for that. I'm gonna one up it. 70% of podcasts never make it past their 10th episode, 70%. So you're just massively hacking off a bunch of those 4 million podcasts. Right out the gate, there's like 1 million left, [00:48:00] so there's still opportunity. Catherine Brown: friend in our network who has a podcast and they have, they're in the. Dozens and dozens and dozens of episodes now, not, you know, not, not more than 500, but you know, like way past 20. And once you get to that number, I mean this, they get to like top 8% pretty quick. I mean, it was, it's kind of stunning how the math works. Bryan Steele: There's, there's increasing levels. Like consistency really takes you to the top very, very quickly. Um, as far as podcasting, if you can figure out how to show up consistently and provide value, people get used to that routine, continue to come back for the podcast. It's, it, the hard work is in that last couple of percent, right? When you're trying to get into the top. Three into the top one is, is, but I mean, it's doable. I mean, with some effort, um, and intentionality. Like it's not, it's not just a place for [00:49:00] celebrities to be, I. Catherine Brown: Well, I even think about the celebrities I follow and or influencers, especially in the realm of personal development for entrepreneurs. I do feel like, to your point, earlier point about building trust, like I feel like I know how they would answer a question. I've listened so much that I could answer for so and so and so and so and so, and so I, and I like them more than I did the day that I started listening, which is why I keep listening. I also could tell you all the ways they're not perfect because some people still have a verbal tick. Bryan Steele: Yeah. Catherine Brown: have bad grammar, some people. Have a funny laugh. I don't know. Now I'm just making up stuff, you know, but they're, they're just people. They're Bryan Steele: And that that's why you do it. Catherine Brown: exponential success and they're still regular people that has encouraged me so much Bryan Steele: Hmm. Catherine Brown: how I have a sphere of influence and I'm [00:50:00] going to show up faithfully and do my best imperfectly. And it's the consistency and the willingness to show up and do it imperfectly that really. me is the separator, like, are we serious about building this business or are we not? And you're not gonna do it perfectly. So you can't wait for that to hold, hold you back. Bryan Steele: I love that, especially because one of the major moves in marketing lately is authenticity, right? The standard way of email funnels and lead magnets is struggling to convert. Just, I think, frankly, everybody's seen that so many times and they're, you know. Promotions folder in Gmail is completely slammed and they just never look at it anymore. I think that making a real personal human connection is what people are, are really gravitating towards. So you don't, you don't have, like, nobody expects you to be perfect. Nobody expects you to have polished stump speeches for these things. [00:51:00] Now you have to develop some skills around carrying on a conversation and adding value. But I mean, the bear, the bar is not super high to get over. Catherine Brown: all learnable. Bryan Steele: Oh yeah. Catherine Brown: learned to do, you've taught me to do, I mean, and we'll just keep getting better, right? Like it's, it's all learnable. wrap up with this. Bryan I have had the pleasure of attending some of the workshops you do, and I know that you like to have speaking engagements. You like to talk about this topic and I always wanna tell the world on your behalf in case you weren't going to Bryan Steele: That. Catherine Brown: he, Bryan has ways he helps people overcome some of their own internal objections about. What would that podcast be? And I, how in the world would there be enough content to talk about that and who in the world would listen? And so talk a little bit about the structure of an average workshop, because I think a person could reverse engineer just by listening to the podcast and would be able to answer some of their own questions for themself if they're wondering, is this for me? Bryan Steele: Oh wow. Okay. Where to begin? Um, [00:52:00] yes. I love having those workshops. I tell people there's really two aspects to podcasting. You need to understand if you understand those two pieces, you have a framework, you know, what you're getting into. So the first I would say is your, your strategy and your approach really clearly understanding who your podcast is for and why people are going to listen. That's one of the workshops I've really spent a lot of time lately, and I'm gonna hopefully be doing a bunch more this year of them. Uh, but really. Catherine Brown: one is the plan of who is it for? Bryan Steele: Yeah, the plan of who is it for? Who are you trying to help? And so we walk through those sorts of some exercises and some workshops, and we brainstorm and we try to narrow down who we're trying to reach and how we're trying to transform their lives. How are we trying to generate change in their lives? If you do those two things, you understand who it's for and how their life is going to be. Different just as a result of listening to the podcast. Not because they hired you, [00:53:00] not because you know they downloaded your lead magnet just from listening to the podcast. If you understand that now you can start to make decisions about other things. Like what do I title it? What's the description? What are some of those other strategic pieces? Is it just me talking or do I bring on guests? Because you can go back to that initial like, who am I trying to talk to and what is the transformation? So that gives you a, a bit of a North star in that. Piece the other pillar. So that would be like your strategic piece. Really think carefully around that. If you understand that piece, it's worth getting started. The other piece is your production. You know, what is it you're going to do to create routines and structures in your life to make sure that you can show up consistently? Because as we've seen in podcasting, you accelerate with consistency the more you show up just week by week. Over and over and over. You continue to generate more momentum over time, so. How much [00:54:00] time do I have for recording? How much time do I need to prep the content for that episode? Or the questions I'm gonna ask my guests? How am I gonna go find those guests? How, what mechanism am I going to use to release the show? How am I, how much time am I gonna spend on editing? Who am I going to get help from to accomplish any of those pieces? Because you can, you can find. Uh, help with individual pieces to get you there. Or you can hire like an agency that's gonna handle all of it. Most of the time people are somewhere in between May, you know, but think through those pieces. If you handle your approach for production, you're always going to have a way to make sure that you show up consistently. And if you think about those two things, the audience that you're helping and you show up consistently, I really honestly don't think there's any way you can lose. Maybe you need to evolve or shift over time to provide the most value, but I don't think any of that time is going to be wasted.[00:55:00] Catherine Brown: That's so great. Thank you so much. So I'm a, I'm predicting that some of the people who are listening are to think about that question and say, who do I love to serve? What is this random niche? And wouldn't you say, Bryan I think it's kind of like I teach in peer advisory groups and referral groups that people wanna want to develop. I getting really getting into teaching people that. The more specific, the better because the person can raise their hand and say, this is for me. And so I was joking that I live in Houston, Texas, so I was joking that I wanted to be friends with female entrepreneurs that lived inside Loop six 10. So I don't wanna have to drive very far. And we meet in person to eat Mexican food and we would talk about the podcast we listen to, but you can't be in the group if you don't listen to at least five hours a week. Bryan Steele: Ooh. Catherine Brown: people who are really gonna show up with stuff I don't already listen to or know. my ideal little group I just made up. But you would know if you met that criteria, you would know if you were that same person. So I kind of think the weirder [00:56:00] the better, don't you think? Bryan Steele: Oh yeah. I tell people you need, you need to try to come up with at least three distinctives and you just did it right there. Female entrepreneurs in Loop six 10 who love Mexican food and listen to five hours of podcasts per week. Catherine Brown: You could even break those last two apart, you'd say, and you have to be a podcast listener, and it has to be a lot. Bryan Steele: And it has to be a lot. Yeah. So I, I mean, tho those are like, I, I imagine that there's probably somebody listening to the show goes, there's, there's people like that. I want, how do I get in that group? Where do I sign up? Sign me up right now? Catherine Brown: Exactly. And it's, it's also true for podcasts Bryan Steele: Mm-hmm. Catherine Brown: even though it sounds like there's millions out there compared to all the other content on the internet, there's plenty of room and there's plenty of room for your very niche skillset. Bryan Steele: I mean, how many customers do you really need? Like you don't? Do you need an audience of 70,000 people? Probably not the right. 50 people. That [00:57:00] can be powerful. Catherine Brown: right. Love that. I love that. Well, I appreciate you. Thank you for helping me with this and all the other podcasts that have been in our series, and I'm so pleased for people in the world to know how to find you. So where's the best place for them to find you? Bryan Steele: The best place is my website, forge podcast.co. Uh, we'll have a link in the show notes. Why? Because I'm going to be the one who puts it there. You can also look, look me up on LinkedIn. Uh, sometimes I'm hosting a workshop or something like that, so I may may have some more of those this, this year. So make sure you're, uh, connecting with me there. And if you're going to grow conference, I'm gonna be there. So come say hi. Catherine Brown: Amazing. Thanks. Thanks, Bryan