The opinions expressed by Chayo Busquets are supported by his extensive experience as a family therapist and in the previous analysis of the cases presented here welcome. This is Chayo with you in Joya. We begin very good afternoon to everyone as I am Chayo Busquetcha this Chayo with you and we are ready to start today' s program. And well, it' s a day. What can I tell you, it' s a day. We' ve been working on
it this week, but today' s the day. Today is the day and, as I have been telling you from previous dates, on this day we wanted to do a different program than we have been doing over time, with the 8th of March International Women' s Day, a day that, as I always remind you, is not a day to congratulate. It' s not a day for the same women to get confused thinking it' s chocolate flower day, because it doesn' t go around and not because it ' s got anything wrong. I insist on it all the time, but
why. And I use the continually comparative with this, Congratulating a woman on March 8 is the equivalent of congratulating a student on October 2. And we have to be very clear about the scheme of this day. And in this day' s scheme. You know why I came to announce to you that I have a guest who makes me enter into ambivalent feelings, because I am very excited to have her on the show, because you know that we have reviewed your book along with your co- writer. They' re not everyday
micromachisms. We check it many times here in the program we recommend it very much and today it was made to me and I have it here at the same time that it is a day that moves me to the insides, because it is a day of much reflection and more with the days that we are being like this, is that yes, I am in the midst of the emotion and the commotion. I have to admit, because they' re going to hear me all of a sudden excited and I want to clarify why,
because it' s the subject. Claudia, welcome. Thank you very much, Chal It is the honor to be here and to be able to talk with you, for I thank you infinitely. She is clearly here on behalf of herself, Claudia de la Garza, but also of Ves' s tooth, who is her writing companion, and today she came to me with a news note. How good I tell you that I' m going to sound excited despite the day it is but I' m going to present them to
you as God commands. Claudia de la Garza is an art historian, PhD in social sciences, specializing in gender studies, teacher and researcher on issues of fashion, contemporary art and feminism. He is fascinated by the many ways in which we use clothing to create identities and transform our body into a place of dissent. This word is going to be very important and today we will surely
talk about it. He writes essay and has found in curatorship and critical museography a platform of enunciation through the development of numerous exhibitions at national and international level with social themes in museums as memory and tolerance, Casa de la Memoria Indómita, the MUCA, the Muca Campus, Shanghai Art Museum and well, come other museums here that I will confess, Claudia that always and people who hear me know it, I am nefarious pronouncing, but museums in Madrid, museums
in Tokyo, in Shanghai, among others. And she' s currently a coordinator. Well, when you were writing, I wasn' t the coordinator of the Unam Museum today, but today you' re there, it' s all still coordinating. Yes, yes, it' s there in coins, in the Historical Center of Mexico City. There it is. And he likes disclosure, because it has to do with it and they have a second book. These two women, these two great writing these subjects, body maps.
So we have to run for it and check it out. It' s editorial lumen and well, what' s March 8th for someone who, as you' ve written on these issues, on March 8th happens to me a bit like you really gets excited, because it' s a day we go out, get together, meet with other partners to point out all that ' s bothering us. We go out on the street, there' s this whole festive part also at a point of being together and being there, of taking these spaces. But at the same time, what we are also
pointing to is the missing ones. We are pointing out very strong things, we are pointing out violence, we are pointing out inequality and I think that is a long way to go and that is also a challenge for us, no but it is also weighing us down, we do not miss and we
are very sore at the ones that are missing. So I think it' s a day, no doubt, of many, of many emotions, because one day that seems fundamental to me and what you explain at the beginning of the program, it seems to me that it' s very important, that we understand it, it' s not also, uh, to put ourselves on the wrong track. But this day is to think about our rights, it is to think about a world of equality, and not just women. We have to think about this, it' s up to us as a
society. We have to think about what is missing for us to live in a world where we can be more free, where we are more equal, where we have equal opportunities. And I think that' s what it' s about, not no, not to be told congratulations, ladies, but to think that we all do in our lives for what, so that those around us, of us are better off being all us. I mean, that' s it, that' s it, without a doubt, without a doubt, Claudia, and that' s what the show is going to
be about. About that. But of that that although you have not been violent, that although you have not been beaten, that although you have not had to beg for help in those terrifying moments that have lived so many women today, in everyday life, what is happening to us unnoticed and of what, even we, who today go out to take the streets, we are also being part of that we are also going to talk today with Claudia, because we are back here in Chayo with you on this 8th of March,
talking with Claudia de la garza authorco along with identity of setback of they are not daily micro machismos. How this came about, because, on the one hand, you hear the micro not and then it seems that it doesn' t matter. But at first there is denial. They' re not everyday micro- machisms. Exactly notice that this book arose because there was an interest in this and the publisher looked for Irendira, who in turn invited me at
that time took we shared a space of classes. They were just giving classes in genre studies in art and they were looking at my student and invited me to a thing that excites me less pride and I feel so honored of such a bright moon. He invited me to do a project like this at one time and they told us we created a book of machis, micromachismos and we
investigated, we went to Luis Bonino, who coined this term. We were going to but the term micromachisms, which has been used so much and which is useful to make these things visible, useful, these experiences of violence that suddenly seem to pass there unnoticed. But we made a lot of noise just this microno e particle. We always think they' re little girls, they ' re those little machismos and then they' re smaller. But I was arguing like we didn' t. We think we can talk about little machismos.
We can talk about machismos that occur every day of everyday machismos, of machismos that, as we live constantly we do not see, become invisible, but not small. Why, because even if they are so everyday, we have them so normalized, it has an impressive impact, they have a great macro impact on our lives and what they have to do with decisions that are made, with lives that can, that is, they can be a matter
of life or death. Not thinking that a person feels that women should dress in a way or they should go out in a way or they should uh and drive in a way or speak in a certain vocabulary and reach a woman who doesn' t. If I' m a decision maker, don' t I tell you I' m a woman, men, that' s a decision maker and I think women are going to act in a certain way? I can say no she was to blame. Not her, I mean, my influence. You can say no. I don' t accept it
in this workplace. I do not accept it in this academic space. Because she talks like that, because women should dress in this other way, because of issues she might not even be realizing that she has, but that she has them there so deeply rooted, that she is being biased, that she is leaving people out and that it has a tremendous impact. Not these economic decisions. We suddenly see every product that comes out. Let' s say
thinking that women should use this or that or consume quis products. Not then, we can' t in any way talk about micro talk, but we do talk about what happens all the time and that we have them as you mentioned at the beginning. Even when we leave, we are very clear that women must have the same rights, that we must have certain freedoms, that
we must. Sometimes we don' t fuck about saying things, scorning someone because they did so, questioning someone why, why they got to that post, not or why they dress like that, why they came out so late, not this kind of thing alone. They eat this book a lot with a lot of people and many times they tell me, well, yes, I understand that women should be free, but sometimes, when they leave so late I think good, but they know that they are, that it is
dangerous. Then we' re putting those filters on, ourselves, us all as a society. Why, because we grew up in this macho society is a structure that surpasses us as individuals. It' s not a thing that crosses us. And we have that education both at home and at school and in the media, as I mean, we' re bombarded by this. Not then am I liberated and I remove all these contents that I have received throughout my life. It' s hard. You have to be thinking about
this all the time and sometimes we leave. But if we have this one, if we start to ask and reflect, I think we start to be able to make a change. Without a doubt, how harmful or how it impacts not to pay attention to these micro machismos that not by small ones, but by hard to notice by how they are. Colabro, I love it. I loved your metaphor for microbes, because yes, no doubt, this part of their invisibility. It makes them grow, makes them reproduce constantly.
We don' t think so, but yes, I' m not a sexist, but at home you don' t give your daughter the same treatment as your son. She can' t go out, she has to help herself in the house he can' t, he can be quiet, but he' ll be asked to work and to contribute financially first. In short, each person should not cry, be strong, endure, not express his emotions and what happens if he expresses anger and violence. That' s a good thing because he' s a man and they' re not, because
then it wouldn' t be the feminine woman anymore. This is this floor where we' re growing up until we think of some possible things for some and other impossible things that we' re having in our mind and how,
how, but why they became female wrestlers, what happens to them. No, the beatings are not of women, and that if a man exerts physical violence on another man or on a woman, say that if they are angry they are, that is to say, that we understand that it seems understandable to us, then, because they tell you it is not that there can
also be women that violent, for there can be anyone who rapes. It ' s a human question, but to whom we do accept that and to whom we don' t. So, those conditions of inequality that we have in our daily lives, with which we res, that we relate, with our family, with our friends, from the most intimate places reproduce in everything,
in all our areas. And then we think it' s very normal for men to hit each other in a bar or, they do, they ' re violent and we think it' s a very unpleasant thing and it ' s out of place for some women to do. Yeah, so that kind of thing is putting us in there with questions as far as possible and on that floor, it' s possible, yeah, it' s possible that women will be raped. Yes, we understand if we think it' s normal for a man to violence a woman and get to the last violence.
And although it is not acceptable to us, we are setting standards, we are still seeing something happening, something in which it is possible becomes so common that it convinces us exactly. And then this, this, this removes
and let' s say it puts here the offense the Flaghad Network. Not that alert alert, because the moment you' re treating each other differently, you' re giving them the chance to be, to be violent, to have more things happen about one you' re thinking a person is weak and things might happen to him then better be taken care of, because if it ' s not his responsibility. No. Besides, this part of the guilt is very interesting. Now I say there are many materials. You were just
talking about how it could grow. Let' s say this violence as it pleases and that it' s a violence that starts that will surely be reviewed in a way or have already been reviewed in your program in a more profound way, from the psychological, from the neurological, from other possibilities, from other disciplines, say, but they thought about things, very simple tools,
like the violence meter. Not that I' m now in one and working for an exhibition on violence against women that we' re going to have at the Museum of Memory and Tolerance. What a father this semester. Not all dates yet. But, well, there' s more to it than there is, probably because it' s going to be very interesting and we thought precisely how. We were wondering, how to show that violent meter so they
weren' t just. I mean, it' s very graphic. They ' re not little colors, they' re little colors, and how those behaviors start. But sometimes we read them and even if we are immersed in those situations, we do not identify ourselves because we continue as in denial. So we figured out how to make it more and more graphic, how to really put an example of situations where you can make an echo where you look reflected by saying I' m trying to give you everything and you violently violence
me. And I more want to give you everything, because I feel that it is my fault, that I have to give more for you to treat me better, when in reality, the tendency is the opposite. It' s a bit. What we' re trying to do with the book is actually to give examples, to make those resonances. Why. Because, as you said, there are violences that can be more evident. There is no thing that this children' s do not cry seems to us already as very
obvious and as overcome, although it is not overcome in any way. No, but sometimes it seems like something seems obvious to us. That' s right, ay Claudia to see in the experience. I see this one like I told you. We commented on this book many times in the bloated program with you and I looked at the index and said wow. This one, this one, yeah? This one is? This one? Yeah? I was clear about them. But all of this I hadn' t even noticed.
And I use them myself, I fall into those approaches myself. You don' t know what the book was for me, how it went for you and some examples, because I' m sure many, many, many of those who are hearing us, will be surprised. Yes, I also think that the same thing happened to us in terms of the fact that even though we were studying these subjects, it' s not the same thing.
When you suddenly open the radar and it was from the conversations that we heard on public transport, at school, where we could be seeing what the people in the back were saying in the cafe and what comments they were making and
he taking ideas and ideas was kind of exhausting. But notice that in particular to me the ones that could me many are those of the body, they were the ones that crossed me the most, because besides, also not only do we apply them, not all this form of how the body of women should be and how it should be the body of men and s and how in women we not only have to always be this aesthetic part, not that ornament beautiful women and how beauty is this part, like that imposes us on
the image, always the image. So how we apply it to ourselves and we' re super tough on our bodies, so we don' t get
along. It' s always like the slice. I got this, I got the other one, that if I eyebrow it, that if everyone in their fashion, I don' t. But besides, it' s also very interesting how that body that at one point is this place, that it has to be very beautiful and that intimidates us, because it' s despite us say the young girls, all the time harassed in how suddenly it disappears also with a certain age and that body, then no longer, is no
longer seen and you have to strive for always being young so that it remains there having that transcendence, not so that it continues to have an impact. So it is very interesting just that, that seems to me a very strong machismo, like this part of the personal arrangement and of always being young and of him it is always having to have this presence as beautiful. No. And there are examples that were like terrifying, because we looked even like this
in presentation, in labor requests. No, and how they asked you to be this beautiful bead. I don' t know what and already the experience of Finding out was all the same. You' ll learn it, you ' ll learn it, although, of course, for men it was never
a subject, not the aesthetic part. To me the body left me as so marked that we just look for that when they tell us they are not going to be another book of they are not micro because to list machismos and it is already clear the idea, not like that the idea was that you can add them that you live. But there' s just this trend.
Not then do we decide to look at the body as focus and think about how it has been seen from the nose, for example, not that it is a part of the body that is very important for our own safety. Not always when you meet someone who likes his nose, because he' s
totally sure of himself, not so much for men as for women. It ' s one thing, but it' s so cross- class because apart, there' s already a whole form of operation, or the mestizo nose that was acquired this eliminate in the sixties, not that it' s going to start getting fashionable operations so that you have some more features like this west, these little noses and then it has a part of racism also very strong,
no, and how we all have to get into that. So I think that book Right goes from head, skin hair, to very important concepts as to how we understand our sexuality, to how we understand our health, our disease, our skin color, our weight. Not that it' s a total issue now, too. It is called body maps and of course it speaks of gender, no, and it speaks of machismo, but it also speaks of ways in which that machismo takes different forms, in different cultures,
in different epochs and in different contexts. And how we suddenly carry something that no longer has anything to do with ocimente and how we appropriate something that hurts us we do it our own and we start self- harming ourselves instead of putting a stop to criticism that comes from outside to pointing, that comes from outside not the other way around. We took it and got out now, we did date the enemy ex It' s not very complicated. You
were telling me everything that had to do with the body. It was one of the things that hit you the most when you were with this not micromachism, even if they were wearing the micro. It' s not because of that, but because of how hard it is to see what others touched you, what others jumped you. Notice that at that time both I and I were having very difficult experiences in the work that had much to do with this infantilization of women, this condescension, not with bosses who were not very aware
of their machismo. On the contrary, they thought that they were still, that they were very open and progressive, but that they constantly put us, they did not interrupt, they appropriated our ideas. The typical Oian. Why don' t we do, no, no, don' t wait, why don' t we do this, what exactly you just said. No. And then it was the idea of that kind of thing constantly and this
infantilization of girls. I remember the girls telling us. The girls and girls are here, because I was thirty- nine years old and nothing or my partner had a baby. Here are stitches, I mean, the girls were going. No. Anyway, that kind of thing that all the time and he' s condescending don' t worry. No, since it was very complicated to really put forward ideas or to change spaces and these machismos that can happen seem, because something simple. Not as good as it is, it
' s not that bad. No, they' re not raping you, they' re not stalking you, but they won' t let you up. But they don' t allow you to access a more responsible position. But it doesn' t allow you because it was the girl, because you can' t make decisions, because you can' t then there are these barriers. Not where the wage barriers are. Today is a big problem. I feel, it' s still a big problem and in many areas it
' s not then sometimes we think. In the academic arena there are many also very strong revelations in that we, who would say well, people are more sensitized. It' s not true. Spaces and jobs are always very masculine and, although they are being transformed, there are still deep inequalities, not especially in terms of care, in terms of who has spaces to care for who doesn' t. In the case of women, they must always have access to or go to care. There' s not one of the
examples we gave was also the super woman. Not this woman you have to be. In addition to her, we said that beautiful and beautiful and put in body, but also has to be smart nice, Linda never gets angry. This one also has to have eh and take care of the children, attend to everyone. What about that, that is, what viability exists in that and in this model that has actually become, a model in which we all feel guilty. If we don' t do it this way, that
' s where it is, where reality is. It' s just that right now you' re making me remember moments where suddenly, at work, you have to tell the boss or the partner doesn' t even have to have different hierarchy something that you didn' t like or something that didn' t seem to you, something that bothered you, that bothered you. How conflicting are women, yes, they can' t stand anything at all.
There is no disqualification that comes from how conflicting they are and then there is no complaint that is evaluated for itself to see if the complaint has exact validity. You don' t listen, but you stigmatize the person who is saying
it from the moment, and that tone control. We also talked about it, not like the moment you say no. But it just makes me uncomfortable that it can be a joke or it can be a much stronger attitude in terms of the professional and you say in here is that women are complaining about
everything. No matter what you said or with valid arguments, not even in the good sense, ever talking to a friend that we were just dealing with this one and suddenly I made comments on a topic that was considered very masculine and told me you' re going to become my best friend and I said no your best friend, as it' s not that you' re like you' re my friend or it' s with you, you can talk
about this good is that where the difference is, not in automatic. I had to go into the cat in the friend catalog, because you' re not interested in subjects that are a hundred less important insults than the female ones. If it' s something that does interest you, then next, it ' s like a man, it' s like another partner, and one of when they were little in high school said yes, I took more with the boys and she was kind of cute to you, because you said,
don' t box me in that place of the delicate. And no doubt, but then you think that if you realize that you' re actually there, uh, uh, also perpetuating that machismo, because actually women can talk about what we all want. So much there is so strong any subject. Yeah, no women' s issues. No doubt, Claudia, how they get in touch with you. Oh, well, they can search me on
Facebook or Instagram. I am Claudia de la Garza or Clouch Vela, and there we can eat, Sara, there you can look for me and we can follow the conversation, because that' s what this book is about, this is about dialogue, thinking together and talking about. That' s right, how do we give him, how do we give him, because I
want to say pause to this conversation. Don' t close, because it works for a lot, but where, where and with what ideas you stayed and who was Claudia that turned out after finishing the book, because I think the book changed me a lot. Actually, you' re absolutely right. It is a nice question, because why this is to immerse ourselves and reflect around our daily life. To me, something that interested me a lot from the beginning is just to see how these violences exercise us only one sense,
they are exercised from all senses and we ourselves exercise them as well. There are, that, we have to see each other, we have to look at each other, we have to see that we are teaching and how we can transform those teachings so that we are looking for that world of greater equality.
No, and one thing that also strikes me a lot is to listen, listen, because thanks to this book it was to put examples here, but it has been to listen to many people who have talked to us tremendous machismos and situations of terrible violence in institutional, of violence, that is, not only of violence in family settings and but of violence at other levels and to me, that is why it seems more and more important to go out
this 8th of March to put our voices there because, because the institutions suddenly there are some that you see begin to seek to integrate and to listen a little that is not left of others and there are and there are others that not that, on the contrary, turn. They also close, close and these radical reactions and seem very serious to me. Someone was telling me that I don' t like the radicals of the marches and the women who suddenly
violate. And but what I' m really worried about is radicality isn' t a bunch of girls scratching a monument for nothing. It seems to me that the radicality with which the institutions are closing down, that does scare me,
because they have the decisions. If they allow violence to continue like that then I think that that is something that I think very important to say, that it is very important that we are talking about these issues, that these situations of discomfort as you said where they discard us, because also that to say good, uh, I can change things and not and it is not a lot of times you don' t do it that you are intentionally, then being able to listen to those who tell us. Hey, you keep
telling me this. No. No, no, no. I like to be uncomfortable with what criticism my body is, what criticism my way of speaking is, or what in the end of arrangement. And don' t you hear, let me finish the idea. No, or you interrupting me not to listen to me. I think it' s fundamental, that is, it' s what happens every day and if we transformed them, we'
d change our environment. No doubt note that I am staying a little while confirming something that I have said in what it applies here and that I have said here in the program many times for many concepts and it is always I have spoken here in the program and I share it with you, that indiscipline if not we manage to stop it on time and that it is going up.
So many years ago there was in the newspaper stalls a propaganda that I would have left forever there, because it said in the newspaper stalls the top said the things of magazines and others said the crimes. They began with a
minor indiscipline. No and this is why I always found this book so valuable that they wrote, because this micromachism ignored by the difficulty it has to be seen, because it has permeated society is the one that is growing little by little, little by little, and then we have the beaten person or the dead person, the dead woman. Not then something. We cannot fail to see that which is in the day to day, because if we stopped it from there we would not get to bigger words, we would get to those
violences. So if we thought of each person for their worth. And both men and women were worth the same thing in this partnership and not just say men and women, but indigenous men and women, and, that is, it doesn' t matter their social status, that is, if we really are worth the same thing. So come in terms of how we look at each other would change completely. And that' s what we have to start with, that is, we have to look at ourselves at the center of
our reflection. That' s right, Claudia, because I' m infinitely grateful that you came on this day, that you dedicated us to this space. I already made the commitment to her. He' s going to come back, because we have to talk about his other book, some problem and, well, about this topic that he gives for a lot, not just on March 8 every day, but today is the day that we all gather together on what we' re going to do the rest of the year.
That' s why this space and this function are given so much to the 8th of March. Claudia, a thousand thanks, a thousand thanks, a thousand thanks to YOU to those who really listened to us. Thank you very much and well, I' m chayo busetch until then. Audio Centre