I was having one of my standard bitchy blow-ups and, you know, pouting and fighting and yelling and I just said, well, I'm leaving and if you want me to come back, call me. And then... It felt so dark between the both of us at that time. For some reason, there's a compulsion to demonize one or both of the partners when a relationship ends. It's very hard in any coaching capacity to work with a man who has a victim mindset.
When I try to make suggestions of how to maintain intimacy or connection, it's... What I see is a lot of really hurt men online. I hear this almost every day. It's like, well, you don't know my wife. She's never taken accountability for anything. Yes, there's accountability. Like, I'm in charge of my feelings. But I'm not really. I'm in charge of how I express. can't control what it is I'm feeling in any given moment.
Matt, Whitney, welcome to the podcast. I'm really excited. We were supposed to do something in Florida and then schedules didn't align and this is actually beautiful because now I get both of you. Yeah, it's nice and close to home for us too, so perfect. Um, so I want to get back into like the origin story of all of this couple's work that you're doing and the men's work specifically that you're doing. And what I was saying in the car ride over that I think is so important is that.
we want everything to fit nicely into one bucket, right? We want to pretend that everything is like this or that, or like everything's kind of. really polarized right now. So it's either you stay in a marriage, whether you're happy or not, and that's the only right thing to do. Or then there's this like divorce and go find yourself and be free. And you're like, we actually had this whole messy middle story and then came back together.
And I don't see anyone talking about that. So I would love to get into like what got you into this work and kind of like your story as a couple. Yeah, I'll get us going. You can kind of fill in the details as you see fit. Um, basically we just, we were in a rough, a rough marriage for a long time and we did like all the stuff that you'd normally do, right? We went to couples therapy and we read the books and, um, really what it came down to is.
I felt like I was in a position where I'm like, Hey, I'm doing all these things. I'm doing all the work. You know, you said you wanted more help around the house. I'm doing more of this around the house. And like, I'm not getting anything I need. And that's because you're unappreciative and you're a bad word.
you don't work in a marriage and i think whitney was kind of going through her own thing where she was giving a lot of herself and not getting what she needs and we'll i'm sure we'll get into that but it got us to a place where both of us were like well
Why are we doing this and I was still like I don't care like we're just gonna make it work and when he was like I can't I can't do this anymore. I can't feel the way I felt and yeah we we thought we had tried everything and and we as far as we knew at the time we had tried everything and we were like okay you know what like as much as this hurts um we're obviously not compatible as a couple like this clearly just doesn't work and
I was having one of my standard bitchy blowups and, you know, pouting and fighting and yelling. And I just said, well, I'm leaving. And if you want me to come back, call me. And then I didn't get a phone call. So that was kind of that. And then we were separated for like six months. And standard male-female separation, I was like a mess trying to get by and lonely and depressed.
And Whitney was going through her own stuff too, don't get me wrong. But on the outside, it was like, oh, Whitney's doing great. And she looks like she's happy. And then, yeah, anything you want to add to that or want me to keep going? Pretty much sums it up. I just want to say ahead of time that I just got braces behind my teeth, so I will sound a little bit funny. She's lying. This is how she always sounds. So I just wanted to start with that.
Yeah. So after that, like six months, I was going through like a major period of introspection. And I was like, okay, well, I got up in my life back together. So I started working on me and like taking ownership and being responsible and saying, well, you know, instead of Whitney being the problem, like what if I was the problem? Like, let's just play around with that idea.
and i realized that not that i was to blame for everything by any means we both had our problems and whitney whitney's very very open about her problems in the relationship but um there was a lot that i was doing that i shouldn't do and a lot that i wasn't doing that i should do and um i went to whitney one day you know convinced her we'd we'd really barely spoken like we you know we we we passed off the kids and um
we would talk about you know finances and stuff but we didn't we didn't talk about our relationship at all um and because it was like it was over like we we both knew it was it was over and um i was like hey i want to give this another shot and we went away to uh tofino on van on vancouver island and i just said hey look like i've learned some things i got i got stuff i gotta work on and really the takeaway the week was like hey like i get it
Like, I actually understand why you felt the way that you felt and I don't blame you for that anymore. And so wherever we go from here, like, I want you to know that. And yeah, and then we started working on it and there was so many things that I learned during that time apart.
And during the time that when we were working on the relationship in the first year that we were back together, where I kind of realized like nobody gives men an understanding of what marriage actually is, like what your role is as a man, what her role is as a woman.
how to make that work for the two of you because everybody's different and what emotional safety means for women, what respect means for men, like where you need to lead, where you need to create safety. And I had been taught none of that.
I thought that was just such a disaster that I'd had to kind of figure this all out on my own and none of the books and none of the couples therapists, like none of it helped. And so I, the only thing going well in my life at that time was like my business, but.
Whitney and I decided through a lot of dialogue that we'd finally built this business over 10 years in finance. And we're like, we're going to sell that. We're going to move to Texas. And we're going to, you know, as an introvert, get on Instagram and start talking about how, hey.
You can actually do something to save your marriage men. Um, here's what actually works when all of the standard advice about like active listening, we don't even know what that is, right? All the standard advice isn't working. And so that's, that's, that's my version of the origin story. Yeah. I mean, that's.
That's the, that's the story. Did you have anything you wanted to add or do you think I kind of covered that? No, I mean, yeah, it was just, it was a really, really deep struggle. I felt really lost and.
I think we were both equally shells of ourselves. We weren't showing up as the versions that we knew we could be, and it felt like we were getting... worse together like the more time we were spending together the the worst versions were coming out of out of out of one another you know so it just felt it felt so toxic it felt so um
suffocating and and we were both just really really really in pain and so it felt like the only like I thought in my head I was like we're both gonna be so much happier if we're apart, because we have these beautiful children, we can raise them together, but just separately, you know, and we're both going to like, I'm like, I'm like, he doesn't know it yet, but he's gonna, he's gonna be so much happier. He's gonna move on. He's gonna find the woman of his dream.
the woman that is gonna love him the way he deserves to be loved and that he the kind of woman he really wants and like and he's gonna thank me one day And I'm not trying to make myself sound like I'm some virtuous, oh, I was doing it all for him. No, that's love, though. That is love. Right. And I did. I did love him. I loved him the whole time. The love never went away. But I also wanted more for myself, right? I also didn't like who I was turning into. And I guess that, you know.
we're we're all capable we all have these different sides right and we can go into our darkness or we can go into our light and it just felt it felt so dark between the both of us at that time I was gonna say like I think the beautiful thing about that it's.
for some reason there's a compulsion to demonize one or both of the partners when a relationship ends, instead of just saying like, I can love you and I can truly want what's best for you and what's best for me. And even if that's not us together, I don't.
you we like throw around these labels like he was a narcissist she had borderline and it's like what are you trying to accomplish with that like you can admit that the relationship isn't working or that you're no longer a good fit and not demonize each other so i i would love to see more
people that when they are uncoupling to do it a little bit more with like grace and love and the way that i've read about um separating especially if you've been together for a long time where you're dissolving a marriage is it should feel like a grief like you should be grieving for
person in that relationship because it was so beautiful not leaving from this point of like anger and aggression because if you're there you need to recalibrate before you can make a big decision because right now if like if you're leaving with that much animosity then it's an emotion
emotional decision instead of maybe one that's in alignment. Yeah. Yeah. And anger also, like, you know, when I'm working with clients, because we work mostly with men, right? Whitney has some female clients, but the bulk of our program is working with men.
let's say their wives have left or they're separated, which is, you know, half the guys that we work with are already separated. Um, one of the best signs is if she's still angry because usually that anger means I still want something from you and you're not giving it to me and I'm. really angry about it. And so if there is like that kind of anger and tension still in the relationship, like part of you has not actually decided to move on.
Right. It's usually a much worse sign for the relationship. If where, where she's at, cause I'm working with men who are trying to save the relationship. If she has like, Hey, no, like I really love you. you're an amazing person. This is just not where I am anymore. Like that's where it's actually more difficult. So yeah, that anger is a sign that.
You haven't fully moved on. You don't want to move on. There's still a lot of unresolved needs and wants and you're making kind of a reactive decision. So you mentioned in your, in both of your stories that there were things that you were doing that you shouldn't have been and things that you were.
were doing that you shouldn't have been can you kind of lay out a lot of the common I guess um malpractices that you see with couples because when I try to make suggestions of how to maintain intimacy or connection it's
what I see is a lot of really hurt men online. And even in like some of your comment sections where they immediately go after you and they're like, well, is she being accountable? What about her? What about her? And I was like, you need to step into your manhood right now because what you're like, you're complaining and why.
and that's gonna just like push her away further so like how can I step into my masculinity and like take accountability and then it's almost like leading like if you want to be the leader of the family like you kind of have to step into that first and then she will soften and follow.
yeah that's really brilliantly said yeah and you know um long before um i was doing any kind of relationship coaching because i kind of fell into this like that was i i i thought at some point that i was going to be into more like just working with men on who they are as men and the relationship was kind of take care of the take care of itself but um it's very hard in any coaching capacity to work with a man who has a victim mindset um
If somebody wants to change, you can help them make that change pretty easily. If somebody's really committed to this is not my fault, poor me, the world is against me. There's almost nothing you can do to help them because even if, you know, you can yell at them until they work out, like as soon as you stop yelling at them, they're going to stop working out. And that's very true in relationships. If you want her to take accountability.
You can try to pressure her into that, but women, especially from an unsafe man, they don't like pressure. They don't like, Hey, it's your fault. It's all in you. Like, that's not what they want to feel in a relationship with a man. If you want her to take accountability.
there's one effective way to do that. It's like, get radically accountability, radically accountable yourself and set that tone in the relationship. Hey, like, you know, our family is a kingdom and the rules of this kingdom are we own our shit. And I'm going to show you that.
And maybe I have to show you that for six months because I've been doing the opposite for the last 10 years. So maybe for six months, I'm going to take accountability for everything I can take accountability for all the time, no exceptions. And in my experience with 80% of the clients I work with,
Their wives take a while to get used to that. And they're like, no, no, the pattern in our relationship is we blame each other. So they stay there. But after he's in this new pattern for a while, they go, oh, this actually is way better. And I've seen the way that you're leading in the relationship and why you own your role in things well.
I guess that's the new way that we do things here. Okay. That actually gives me permission to start owning my stuff and saying, Hey, I have to apologize for something. And the first time that happens with the guys, they're like,
They're blown away because most of the guys join the program and we laugh about this because I hear this almost every day. It's like, well, you don't know my wife. She'll never do that. She's never taken accountability for anything. She never shows appreciation for anything. And you have to kind of unpack with these guys, well, hey, you want to be a leader. You want to be respected. You want her to feel safe with you. You want her to be feminine around you. It's like, okay, well.
do the work like you start showing that this is this is the new pattern in our family and if it's a better pattern she's probably going to be thrilled to adapt to that pattern and say oh this is way better happy to do this she will follow like the thing is When I watched Matt, and I'm going to use like an analogy here, ascend, ascend that mountain, like become this.
great in my opinion great man with this king energy who was taking ownership and accountability and really leading our family I didn't want to be left behind like I watched him become this version of himself that I always knew there were He had so much potential and that he, I believed he was already like an amazing man, but I didn't know how incredible he could become.
Watching that, I was like, wow, I want to be there with him. I don't want to be stuck in my own part of my French, in my own shit. Right. I want to get there, too. And eventually I did start taking accountability and apologizing and and and showing up in all the ways that he that he was doing. And if you want to be.
the masculine leader regardless of your gender you have to take that first step like if you want if you if you if you're a woman and you want to be masculine you want to lead and be in charge then okay then let's put it on the woman yeah go do that go do that but if you're a man and you want to lead you want to be the captain of your proverbial ship
Like you, you own that ship. And then the crew, I know it's going to sound maybe degrading to some, but the crew will fall in line. And I don't have any shame in saying that because. I love that I got to fall in line, quote unquote, because I feel so safe on the ship that he's leading now. Like I can rest, I can relax. And I, yeah, I am.
I don't have to step into my masculine and take charge of anything anymore. I mean, I take charge of the things in our life that are mine, that are my responsibility. But in the... Like the image of our relationship, like he leads and I follow, but I want to. It's a choice. It's not because he's making people. And you didn't always want to, right? No, and I didn't. I didn't, yeah. I was very masculine. And I was always like, well, that's because Whitney.
doesn't understand what's healthy. She doesn't get it. And I was, and I was so certain that like it was her and looking back, like it was, it was not hers. Like I was showing up in a way where it's like, well, no, like I wasn't following myself.
I would say I'm going to go, you know, whatever, I'm going to go to the gym and then I wouldn't. Right. I'd say I'm going to get our finances in order and then I wouldn't. I'm going to take care of the kids or make sure the kitchen's clean and then I wouldn't. It's like, well, I wasn't following myself, but I still expected her to follow me. And like, oh, surprise, she didn't like that deal.
Right. And so, yeah, both of like, it was, yeah, again, me leading kind of like me looking at everything that I needed to look at. And then Whitney after that, and largely as a result of that, she's like, Oh, I feel safe enough to look at me. Like I know Matt thinks it's good. to own things so i can do that now and i'm not going to get punished by him because he hasn't he doesn't berate me like he used to or yell like he used to or make me feel unsafe and so i can now
relax into myself enough to actually get in touch with what I'm really feeling, which is like, Oh yeah. Hey, you know, I kind of feel guilty about some of these things. And, um, and it's just been this, sorry, it's destabilizing to like, look at yourself sometimes like looking in the mirror and realizing that you were not always a good person like that i've you know behaved in ways that were beyond inappropriate that were unkind um
And but when wanting to look at myself as a kind person, believing I'm a kind person, but then having to reconcile that I do unkind things like it was it was really difficult. And so but when. I knew that I had Matt to rely on. Like he was going to love me no matter what and support me no matter what. And like, it was okay. Like, he's like, Hey babe, like.
I live that with you. Look, I know that version of you. I was married to her before, remember? It's okay. And I was like, okay. Okay, yeah, it is okay. You know? And then eventually I was able to... you know, find self-acceptance, and I no longer needed to, like, lean on him for all of that, per se, but in the beginning, I definitely did, because it was quite unnerving to admit.
certain things to myself yeah yeah and that part's never easy at all and i think when we were talking about in the car like no one leaves any relationship unscathed especially marriage it's you're playing at like an expert level once you decide to you know create a life with somebody and I see.
What I think some people are going to say in the comments or when they see some of these clips is they will see all of the effort and what is required to maintain a long term relationship, let alone like we haven't even gotten to kids yet. And they're like, well, why do I do it? Like, why is a man, why am I signing up for marriage or why, why am I signing up for a long-term relationship if it requires all of this work? Yeah. I mean, that's, that's a tough question to answer because like, it's.
the default answer is like, Oh, cause everything like you get, you get so much out of it. But when you're in that mindset where what matters to me is like, well, I've got a great life and I don't have to listen to complaining and I get to go to the gym when I want and I get to go out when I want. The real answer is that there is a much deeper meaning and a much deeper fulfillment in serving those that you love. And if you want your life to be...
sort of hedonic and doing the things that feel good and just maximizing your own personal pleasure. Like you can pursue that path, but I know a lot of guys who pursued that path till they're 50, 60 years old. And, you know, If they've got money, there's no shortage of 23 year olds that are willing to sleep with them, but they're not happy. There's a way deeper level of contentment knowing that when I go.
do whatever I do when I go to the gym, when I go work, when I bring home a paycheck, it's like, I get to share this with people that really, really deeply matter to me. And I get to experience the gratitude.
that they, that they have for me. And I get to see my kids thriving. I get to see my wife thriving. Um, you know, everything we have in our life, like if, if, if I was alone, I'd be very happy to live in a cabin in the woods with five dogs, like, you know, on, on, on some of like, why do I want anything if it's just for me? um like i i'd be like again i'll go read poetry whatever um but
it makes everything in your life more worthwhile. It makes everything more meaningful. It makes everything that hurts and the times that suck and the sacrifice, it makes it all better because you're like, I'm doing this for something more than me like i love my wife and my children way more than i love myself and if you've never experienced that if you've only ever been in relationships where you're kind of trying to figure out do i get this out of that or do i get you know
it's very difficult to explain how much better it feels to open your eyes in the morning when you're in that kind of serving relationship. And I don't think you can know what that is until you've experienced it, but I get where those guys are coming from too, because. legally, the system is completely stacked against men. The dating culture is amazing for 4% of men.
And it's okay for 16% and it's absolutely horrible for 80% of men. Like the odds are stacked against men right now. But I mean, what do you want to, you know, it's like saying, well, I'm not going to go to the gym because it's tough to build muscle. It's like, okay, well.
If you're okay, not having muscle, then good decision. But if you want more, it's like, it's going to take work. It's going to take suffering. You're going to have to go when you're tired. And if you choose to forego all of that meaning, because poor me, the deck is stacked against me. It's like, well.
Practice that attitude in your career, see where it gets you. Practice that attitude in your health, see where it gets you. If you want the absolute most you can get out of life, it doesn't really matter if the deck is stacked against you, like figure out a way. And, you know, there's a lot of guys like me.
a lot of companies like mine that are bringing these like kind of these old ideas, but that are new to us as a culture back into the world. It's like, Hey, you know, go find some information about how you can actually create a healthy relationship. Cause I promise you, if you've had 10 toxic relationships in a row, it's not all them.
right? It's you. And if you fix yourself, you'll be amazed how quickly you attract somebody different into your life. I can't tell you the number of clients where we have like an 80% success rate in our program and the 20% of them where it doesn't work out. it's amazing how quickly they find a new, wonderful, amazing relationship because they're not the same person anymore. They're attracting somebody very different. So what I think those men really need to understand, and I, you know.
the bitter men brigade, right. With all the negative comments and all women suck and I'm happier alone. It's like, that's just a victim mindset. And it's, it feels really good to be a victim. it feels really good to say, this is not my fault. I'm good as I am. But the thing is, if you're good as you are, you don't improve. And like take that ownership and just say,
hey, this is going to be really hard. The deck is stacked against me. Maybe I'm really bad at picking up women or I've chose a string of really unhealthy women. But if I apply myself to this, I could get somewhere better than I am now. And the only way that's going to happen is if you decide that you're going to focus primarily on you.
as what needs to be worked on and not all women. And to answer that question from the other side that you would never admit to or say, but you're a very worshipped man at home. Like you're worshipped by your children. You're admired by me. And I don't know if I say worship. I worship you like I, you know, and.
that is because of everything you just said, like all the effort and energy, all the things you put into our, into our relationship and into our family, you've created an incredibly grateful woman who like, I want to practice every day to be.
Sorry. I knew it was coming. I always get emotional when we talk about this stuff. Yeah, because I just, I find, because this is just like, it's life changing, you know, going from where we were to where we are over the last several years. It's just life changing. And yeah, I. I practice every day to be a woman worthy of you. Yeah, and I've worked very, very hard to be a man worthy of you.
Yeah, you're very cute. Sorry. It's beautiful. Don't apologize. It's beautiful. I feel like one day I should stop getting emotional about this stuff. No, it's obviously like, you know, you guys are doing something really impactful. And I, I mean, I truly love all of the work that you're doing and you are changing people's lives and you're, you're like leading by example. So many people in any space online when you're front facing.
like this facade it's this kind of like LARPing that I see everyone doing right and especially in like the male space it's um like this is masculine masculinity and this is how you become a cobra king or whatever that trash is it's like no you guys are like real people and you have a family and like it's not this perfect thing right it's not like this woman who's like out there divorcing, living her best life and this, um, or like.
a trad woman that's like you stay no matter what it's like no we're human we're flawed the relationship gets messy and we almost divorced and we found each other i think it's a beautiful love story and it helps a ton of people thank you i love what you guys are doing thank you thank you
Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's very, very meaningful. And it's like very close to our hearts because like, we've been in that place where like, everything kind of sucks and you see no way out. And then we've been in the place where it's like, oh, we can actually make this work. And like, yeah, the more people we can share that with.
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's so close to both of our hearts. So one thing that I see a lot in this space, cause my audience is heavily male. It's probably about 70% male, 30% female is, um, these men say that they are doing all of the things like they will take my advice and they will start helping out around the house. They'll start participating more at the child's care. They'll try to do little touches and they're like, it doesn't work. Cause like, that's kind of where I.
I say to start, right? It's like follow through, be a man of your word, follow through, be disciplined. If you say you're going to do something, execute on that thing, because that translates to safety for a lot of women. They don't get it. Like at first I got inundated with these guys. I'm like, how is not taking out the trash, making you.
And say, if you're neurotic, I was like, no, like our brain doesn't distinguish between like overstressed, chronic stress, acute stress, or I'm getting chased by a tiger. Like it just hasn't caught up. So it absolutely does translate.
to her in that way so maybe it's time maybe it's like they're just in the beginning of it and she hasn't had enough time to reacclimate um to have that appreciation but like where like do you get that same complaint like i'm doing all the things and she doesn't show appreciation i would love both of your insights
is like, why is that happening? So yeah, that, that's a hundred percent of my clients. And the thing is like, they actually are doing a lot of the things. And like, if you, if you put down everything they do in a week on an Excel spreadsheet, be like, Oh, holy shit. Why isn't she happy? But
The thing that guys don't understand is she has to be in a good emotional place. She has to be feeling safe in the relationship for any of that to even register. Because if she thinks that you don't really love her, you don't really get her, you don't really see her.
She doesn't feel safe around you. Taking out the trash doesn't register as an act of service, right? And men in so many ways can pour from an empty cup, right? And I think that's, that's largely a testosterone thing. Like testosterone is driven at results.
Right. So it's like, if I roll my ankle, but I go slow, go to, you know, go bring home a deer to the cave. Like I'm going to figure out a way to do it. Um, estrogen is much more driven at social connection and social wellbeing, emotional wellbeing. And so if she's not in a good place of emotional well-being herself, if her cup is empty, she can't pour out of that cup. And so what men really need to understand is she has to have that emotional safety piece in place.
And emotional safety is its own thing, but it also breaks down into three categories. So feeling supported, feeling special, and feeling, what's the other one? Safe. No, safe, seen, special, supported. Yeah, supported, safe, seen, special, supported. Yeah, seen. A woman has to, in order to feel safe, she has to be seen, she has to feel special, and she has to feel supported. And if those pieces are missing...
It doesn't matter how much work you do. It's not going to register with her. And she's just going to look at you as like an employee who's simping for attention all the time.
But if you can put those pieces in place where she feels totally seen, she goes, oh, wow, he knows what I need. He's taking out the garbage because he understands I had a hard day at work and the kids are off the wall and my cousin's uncle's friend's daughter is in the hospital and that's on my mind and he wants to take out the garbage.
garbage because he sees that i'm in pain she's like what an amazing man he took out the garbage and it's amazing you know we went through this ourselves and i've gone through this with so many clients like he can be doing let's say a hundred tasks a week and getting nothing from her and then
he gets all these emotional pieces in place and then he starts doing 10 things a week and she's like, Oh, you're a God. Thank you so much. Right. So because you're actually giving her what she needs and she understands it's because you see her because she's special because you want to make her feel safe. And that's what guys don't miss. And that's why.
The most common relationship problem I see for men is like, she doesn't appreciate anything I do. And they'll try to outwork it. They'll try to do more tasks. And it's like, no, dude, the solution is not to do more. The solution is to figure out what's missing for her emotionally, because I can promise you.
Once she gets that in place, she'll start giving you back the things that you need. And, you know, the terrible thing about women is if they have an empty cup, like you're not going to get anything back from her.
Like it's just a fact. Um, but the wonderful thing about women is if her cup starts to overflow, she's going to immediately pour back into your cup and she won't need a coaching program. She won't need to read books on relationships. Like she will just be like, Oh, I already know your needs. And now that I have.
have enough in me, I can immediately start filling your needs and she'll want to, and she'll be happy to do it. And she'll act like that's what she's always been doing. And she won't even notice she's doing it. It's like default mode. Right. Whereas men, we need a little bit more work, but yeah, I'm saying that to try to be encouraging. It's like.
No matter where you're at, like if you put in those missing pieces, she will not just be willing to do the things that make you happy. Like she'll do them without you asking and she'll be thrilled to do them. And she'll maybe even do more of them than you need because that's the first thing she wants to do when her cup is overflowing. yeah i mean i completely agree like for us it's when i say us i mean women everything is about how we how we feel how we're feeling
So if we feel terrible, but you're doing all the things, it's not going to register exactly pretty much what Matt said. But if we feel amazing, like you're making us feel great and you did the dishes once in the last two weeks, I'm like, ah. He does dishes like two weeks ago. That was great. You know, like that was, um, that was, I really appreciate that. So, I mean, yeah, it all just comes down to how, how we're being made to feel. And I know.
Like, yes, there's accountability. Like I'm in charge of my feelings and, but I'm not really, I'm in charge of how I express my emotions. I'm in charge of how, how I translate what I'm feeling, but like, I'm not necessarily, I can't control. what it is I'm feeling in any given moment. I've noticed that. Yeah. If I could just like, you know, go from magic, get a magic wand and just go.
from being sad and just go happy, like I would do it, you know? Right. But I just, I can't. Well, no one can, right? No, I think all that you can do is the, is the expression. What I say to my littles is there's no bad feelings. There are bad expressions, right? So I'm never going to say like anger.
is bad but no you can't just punch someone in the face because you're mad so not every expression is welcome every feeling is welcome and i don't want to do the whole women women and accountability and it's like accountability chasing the woman right it never catches up because like yes like we we all have masculine and feminine within us and i think it is important to like still nurture that masculine which is like a little bit more discipline
because some women, it is like totally uncontained to where it is toxic. The before I get into like women and their responsibility when it comes to like appreciation and respect and love what to a man I will say to all of the men that like immediately jump on the woman as the one to blame I think that you shouldn't be blaming anybody. It's a relationship. So both people
play a part um but if you want to fall into like the the trad movement of like men are the only leader of the house like who is responsible for the energy of a company and it's the ceo it's the leader of the of the building so if you have a tyrant that is operating the company and he's making everyone feel unsafe or it's unpredictable or whatever the case might be like the buck stops with him so you the employees might be acting out in a way
That is irresponsible. Sure. Like that's, that shouldn't be tolerated either. But at the end of the day, like the buck stops with the leader of the household. So again, I think the most change happens when like the guy steps into masculinity and leadership because. It can be when you're in it, especially as like such an emotional creature, it is so hard to like pull yourself away from the emotions and understand.
What I'm seeing and experiencing might not be an accurate depiction of reality. It's kind of warped or distorted. you need someone to kind of lead you there. Now on the flip side, I love Alison Armstrong's work. I reference her all of the time and I definitely fell into the category at a time of my life where I was taking a prince and turning him into a...
frog, right? So it's all of these ways that you unintentionally emasculate or tear down, um, like a great man and you actually make him into the thing that you don't want. So it's by not showing appreciation, by not saying thank you, um, by like you. sex as a weapon, which I definitely want to get into with, with both of you.
by nagging by infant infant infantilizing him right like treating him like he's just like one of your kids that's not ever doing anything right so there's all of these ways that women also are participating in the like degradation of the relationship so when you were during like experiencing your separation and you were living apart and you had this.
like this idea that you had to leave and that the relationship was no longer there he wasn't right for you how did you get from a place where that was the reality that you saw with him to like seeing oh no he is my partner this can be fixed like seeing him as a king instead of as the frog? So seeing him as the king that I see him as now did not happen right away. It didn't happen while we were separated. It didn't happen even right when we got back together. There was a long...
period of time where we had to like work through this in a really really messy way um matt didn't have matt to help him he was doing it all on his own so it was a lot messier um but For me, part of why I felt so unhappy and destabilized in our relationship was because I didn't think that Matt...
understood anything that i was going through and i didn't even think he liked me like i was like okay i think you're here out of duty because you're a good man he's never not been a good man he's always been a good man um but i don't want to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't like me like who's just here because he thinks he should be you know um and he wasn't doing or saying anything in a way that i could hear that proved otherwise right
So during our time apart, he, he started looking at himself. I didn't know this was happening, obviously. And he started taking radical responsibility and he just decided like, I'm going to blame myself for everything, which is like, you know. Sounds crazy because obviously it takes two. I was a big player in the degradation of our marriage. But he just decided I'm going to take full responsibility. And when he did, he slowly started to.
see some of the things that I had been trying to tell him that I needed and that were not working. And he figured it out. He really did. And so we went on this trip together. He asked me if I'd go away with him. And I... said, okay, I, for the sake of our family, like I have to give this at least one more, one more try. Right. And he, he sounds different.
Okay. Shout out to Mike for convincing her to actually go with me. Yeah, his very best friend, very uncomfortable emotionally or talking about emotional things, I should say, called me and I knew, okay, if his best friend is calling me like this is, this is. He's a good salesman. So thank you for that moment.
successful salesman he'll like to know I said that um anyway um so I went away with my uh with Mike I went away with Matt and um he said all the things that I wanted to hear basically it's like but it came from it wasn't like he was repeating it back like he just knew exactly what i've been saying and i was like oh my goodness okay well this is something i can work from like if you you actually understand me now like i'm not
screaming at a blank like at a wall like you know what I mean like you're you you get it okay I can I can work from here um and then that was so that that was why I decided to to to try again and um that started the healing of our marriage. And then from there, yeah, it was just like a ton of conversations, missteps, you know. back and forth and then but I don't know through that process there was there was like some there was a magic that happened that I
Matt is much better with words than I am, and he's better at explaining complex ideas and things. You're doing great. No, but I'll maybe let you explain this a little better.
there's no I don't know how to describe it but there was like a magic that happened like a closeness that developed of like it's like two warriors like going into battle you know like we went into we went to battle together to save whatever this whatever we thought we this was you know what i mean um and yeah and then there was just like there was this epiphany moment i don't know god moment whatever you want to call it where i was like there is no going
back like this is what i want no matter what um and regardless of how difficult it is and what it's going to take and what i have to face about myself and on all those things it was like i didn't know at that time that i was going to be facing a bunch of things but in retrospect um yeah so there was there was a change for sure there was like a devotional change that happened um through that through that and it sounds like you want to use the word like magic it kind of just
was like a bestowed upon you it wasn't like a calculated pragmatic like I'm gonna do this it was a feeling like you just kind of 100% got taken over yeah because I I have been called pragmatic in different ways. And I think, you know, we are struggling for...
many, many years before, before we were no longer together. Right. So there was that, like, I'm going to be in this because we're married, both of us, I think. And then there wasn't. Right. So, so no, I wasn't making a choice out of like, out of duty or because. out of religion or anything. It was, it was, yeah, there was something deep, a deep feeling inside of myself that, that emerged through, through this path that we went down together. And.
Whatever that switch was, like it's been turned on. I mean, our relationship is amazing now. So it's hard to. to even imagine but there's a switch that's been turned on at least inside of me where like there's no way I'm going anywhere no matter what. And I don't think that that's necessarily. that that's right for everybody you know that no matter what mentality and i don't think you should even have that unless you have what what i'm trying to explain which is not you know but um
Cause I don't think like, no matter what for everybody, like divorce shouldn't be an option. It's like, I don't, I don't actually believe that. It shouldn't be a life sentence. No. Yeah, exactly. But there, but there is this, this thing inside of me, um, and in both of us where there's like. There is no backdoor. There is no, it's unconditional at this point. We've been through everything. Yeah. And that's a really great.
Great place to be. Did I answer your question? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it actually ties in beautifully to this next thing I wanted to get into. So I don't know if you've seen the trend about duty sex. It was all over X for a while.
And like a lot of like the bro space took it over. And it's constantly saying how men have to do all of their duties within the marriage. You have to protect, they have to provide, they have to be your best friend. Like we have this huge list and if they do anything short, like we.
immediately say divorce and you're, you get to see the kids every other weekend. And, um, it's kind of, again, it goes back to like this victim mentality for men and like how hard it is on them, but women don't have any responsibility to do their duties as a wife. And it always is just like cleaning, taking care of the kids. and having sex whenever the guy wants it. And I...
I'm a huge critic of women's weaponizing sex. I think that is gross and you should never do that. It shouldn't be like, I'm mad at you so you don't get any or like whatever. I don't like that at all. But I also believe that you have to like be in your body and your body. does have an intelligence and if there is an underlying feeling of I'm not safe or I don't want to do this that you shouldn't force yourself to do that either so
We all know how important sex and connection is to maintaining a marriage, right? It can be equated to kind of like the nutrients of the relationship. So it is very important even when you are not in the best place that you're still maintaining. sex but like where where is the line between you shouldn't
the knowing that the minute that you stop doing it, that that is, could be potentially very dangerous for the relationship. You shouldn't weaponize it, but at the same time, no one should be participating unless it's like a full body. Yes. So how do you like, how do you deal with that in the mess?
of a marriage i'm sure you have some good thoughts there on this but um yeah like one thing that's important for men to understand is and that's important for women to understand too is like men need sex in order to feel connected Like that's part of how we express our love is part of how we feel loved. It's yeah, we're horny and there's all kinds of reasons we want sex, but like, that's how we feel really connected. And without that, we simply don't feel connected. And women are kind of the.
opposite directions. Like they need to feel connected in order to have sex. And because men don't know that. Um, cause we kind of think, you know, Alison Armstrong way. We think women are just little men and women might think we're just hairy women. Um, we don't know that they're different. We don't understand that sometimes like her body is saying no in a big way. Cause our bodies don't really say no. Right. Like.
You know, there's some extreme examples we can all think of to prove that, right? Like we can get it done. But when sex is weaponized, it's not just that the guy. doesn't get to get off because he can figure that out on his own it's like he doesn't get the connection he really wants with his wife and he feels like he's being rejected by her because we are you know female mate selection that's consistent across most mammals what that means is
The woman watches, you know, the female moose watches the male mooses, you know, bash antlers. And then whoever she thinks is best, she goes and, you know, makes babies with them. And so... Part of our brain is going, oh, I'm not good enough to mate with. I'm not good enough to mix genes with. So we feel that rejection on a really, really, really deep level. And what I think it's helpful for women to understand is.
just how painful that is for us. And it's helpful for men to understand like sometimes her body is just saying no. So all that to say, since your audience is male and I work with men, it's really important to build with her a level of trust that she can back off when she wants. Not every kiss has to lead to sex. Not every hot makeout session has to lead to sex. And, you know, training can be taken as a derogatory way, but like train your wife to understand that.
If you say not right now, you're okay with that. It shows you're not needy. It shows you are independent. It shows you like you can stand on your own two feet and you're like, you're cool. You're okay. Because the more that you do that, the more she's going to be willing to have. duty sex with you because she's like, she knows she can say no. And sometimes, you know, not to spill any secrets, but like sometimes Whitney's less into sex than I am.
And there are days. Yeah. Like there are days. So normal for women though. I think that's universal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And like and the more I understand that, the more I'm like, oh, you know what? This is probably not going to be the week of the most amazing sex in our marriage. And if, you know, she's down to have like some quick rollover sex, like.
great you know um but if she's not down for that it's up to me again as a leader to go oh i know her well enough again like using the ceo analogies like you're not a good ceo if you don't know your employees right if you don't know your managers and so not that we're saying that wives are employees but no no If you don't actually know her well enough, like you're not going to make a good decision. So, but if you do know her well enough and you really actually care about her.
needs, you will be able to read her and go, oh, not right now. But since men don't even really think of that, we're just like, oh, we're ready to go. We don't know that. We don't know how painful it can be for women to have sex when they're not in the mood, even with somebody that they love.
And if you do that with your wife enough times in a row, she will start associating that feeling with having sex with you. And you're going to have less sex. You're going to have less good sex. You're going to have less of the sex that you really want to have. And so it's really important to like.
as a man say, Hey, you know what? Sometimes she's not in the mood. And I promise you, if you do that, like you'll have more and better sex on average and you won't get into a position where you're not having sex at all. No, I think that's, you said something that I think is so valuable and I want to highlight it for, I think every listener.
If you get to the point where you feel that every single physical interaction has to lead to sex, that is so much pressure on a woman because of our cycles. And like, you guys aren't going to understand because like you guys go through yours so quick in a day, but ours span about. a week so if we're in a lull and like it just
sometimes it doesn't even feel like for me, so I can only speak to me and me that I think some other women might resonate. Like I won't feel anything. It's like, if I'm in a certain part of my cycle, it would take like something very high powered for me to like be able to get where I need to go. Cause just cause the hormones aren't there. It can hurt even.
Right. You're not like self lubricating. It's just their hormones aren't there to do what you need to do. So if I, if like you have trained me and it is true, cause it's like, it's almost like we're all living in like a Pavlov's.
experiment, right? Like, so if something happens and then there's another thing that follows and now I can link those two behaviors together. So if every time that you hold my hand or like come in for a passionate kiss, you are expecting it to go all of the way, like that is so much pressure. And then now I feel like.
almost used in a way like we can't just connect in this moment and then it stopped. So that creates a lot of aversion for some women and then they'll pull back even more and more. So now she doesn't even want to engage with a kiss because she's like, well, I don't have sex.
hands. Right. And he's like, I was just going to kiss. Well, all the behaviors before had made me like leaving to assume that this is where it's going to go and it's not where I want to be. So, um, this was in, I think her name is Emily Nagasaki.
or something it's um come as you are it's a really brilliant book and she kind of uh it's very research based and one of the stories is a woman that had this exact experience it was like she couldn't get aroused by her partner because of the almost performance anxiety
So her assignment was stop having sex. Don't have sex for 30 days at all. And anything else is allowed. So you can kind of like reprogram your brain and the relationship that like not everything has to lead there. So like this can just be a soft touch. can just be like an erotic kiss. This can just be a shower. It doesn't have to be so much like have so much weight to it. And I think that's so important. Yeah. And there's something like really powerful as a man that's really attractive to women.
Um, tell me if I'm wrong. Um, but when, you know, things are moving in that direction and you're like, okay, the launch sequence is ignited. Like this is going in one direction now. And then she's like, oh, you know what? Like, uh, not right now for X, Y, Z. And your response is like, oh, totally get it. No big deal. Like let's watch a movie. Like you do that two or three times and she knows she has that option on the table. It's like.
you're going to get way less nos in the future. And the yeses that you do get are going to be way bigger. They'll be very excited. Yeah, exactly. Like you'll, you'll, you'll get, she'll be like, Oh, this is safe. Well, I want to.
open to him more and like her body will open more like all the things you want to happen will happen but that comes again from like you setting the tone that in this relationship we're allowed to say no to each other and as a man I'm not going to be butthurt and pouting and wimping in the corner because
Oh, I, you know, I thought we were going to, now we didn't. It's like, that's not attractive energy. No. And you repeat that enough times in your relationship, like watch where that gets you. A hundred percent. Yeah. The more you respect our, our bat, like everyone wants their boundaries respected. right it's the same thing the more you respect our boundaries the more safe i feel with you the more open i am to you you know and
And yeah, and then there is a lot, there's a heck of a lot more sex that comes, that enters the picture in that, in that situation, in that scenario. Yeah. And I think boundaries is the right word. Cause like the analogy I use with clients is if she's got a bit of a wall up with you.
And every time she puts that wall up, your response is to like, try to break through it. Like she's going to have to make a thicker wall. Right. And if instead we do is like, every time she puts a wall up, you go, okay, no big deal.
She learns over time, oh, this wall doesn't need to be quite as big. It doesn't need to be quite as thick. I can let it down more often. And like that's if you want your wife to have her walls down, stop bashing into them when they go up. A buddy of mine has a great line. It's like you can't out masculine a woman who's intermasculine.
Like you can only out still her. And what most guys do is they feel insecure and they're like, Oh, you're putting, and then they try to overpower her. And it's like, you're just reinforcing her. Like I need bigger walls with this guy. I need to close down to him. And if you can just out still her and then we'll be like, Hey.
totally cool with me. Like I'm okay. Like I'm a man who's standing on my own two feet. Yeah, this kind of sucks. And it's not what I would choose, but like, I'm going to be okay. She's going to look at you as somebody like, oh, you're okay. Like you're standing on your own two feet. Like I admire that. I respect that. I look up to that and things will go your way more often. So getting into communication and.
um kind of like tying back into all emotions are valid but not all expressions are valid let's get into anger a little bit because when we talk about men that have been emasculated by their moms by their schools by their lovers right it's it's this punishment for being a man. So you get these
more feminine guys, or you get very dangerous men who aren't capable. So what is, what does healthy anger look like within men? And then also within a, within a dynamic dynamic. So let's say you're in an argument, like what's tolerable, what's. not tolerable as far as anger and aggression go. Yeah. Um, I mean, you're going to feel angry sometimes like, right. Like
And especially if you're married, like she's going to know all the buttons to push. And if she's in a movie where she wants to piss you off, like she's going to find a way. Right. And I think it's your job to not be angry. And there are going to be times where like you can't control it, but then it's up to you. Again, if you want to be the leader in your relationship, it's up to you to say, Hey, look, I'm starting to get really pissed off. And if I stay here, this is not going to be.
a conversation that either of us are going to enjoy so i'm going to step out And the problem with that is a lot of, you know, let's say she starts chasing, saying, no, we're having this conversation now. It's like, no, like you, you said a no. And now you retreat to your bedroom. And if you have to, you retreat to your car and you drive somewhere and, you know, let her know you're coming back. But like. It's very hard to express things from anger and have them help the relationship.
If you need to express anger, my recommendation to guys is like, go process that anger on your own, like write it down on a piece of paper and crumple it up and stomp on it. Like beat the shit out of a pillow, go hit the heavy bag, go to the gym, like do whatever you got to do. And when.
anger is still there but it's no longer controlling the words you say then go have that conversation and it's your responsibility to not do that because one of the things that men do not understand about women that i did not understand is just how sensitive to threat they are and
I had no idea that I was making Whitney feel unsafe until I listened to Alison Armstrong's seminar, which every man listening to this should get understanding women unraveling the mystery. And she talked about safety and. basically what it comes down to is on average in a male female relationship he's going to be bigger stronger and more capable of violence and when you're angry at her and you're at home alone
She is trapped alone with a predatory creature who's bigger and stronger than her and who's angry at her. And even if the front of her brain, you know, is going, he's not going to hurt me. He would never do that. He would never do that. He never has. I know him. I trust him. The back of her brain is going.
alert, predator, unsafe. And from that position, you're not going to get anywhere constructive. She's going to try to placate you or try to overpower you or try to escape you, but you're not going to accomplish anything. So it's really important that you learn.
She will actually feel physically unsafe when you're angry with her. And I remember listening to that in the car with Whitney and just going like, is that true? She was like, yeah, of course. And it was like so obvious to her. And I was like, that never occurred to me.
I, it never occurred to me that my wife would be afraid of me. And for most guys, when they understand that, like it's a major gut punch and it's a good gut punch. It's like, Oh shit. Like she actually is scared of me. And I used to be, I was such a moron. Like she would be, you know, retreat to the bedroom. And I'd be like, oh, okay, well.
You know, I know it's not healthy to let the sun go down in your anger, so we're not going to bed angry. And so I'd like pick the lock and I'd be like, oh, she's going to think I'm kind of cool because I know how to pick locks. And instead, she's like retreating to safety in your bedroom. I'm like, no, no, no, no, you're not safe here. I will find you. Right. And I thought I was doing.
the right thing i really did think i was doing the right thing um because i just didn't understand that's how safety works for women so that's a it's really important so as far as anger goes like process that shit on your own like don't bring anger to your wife and your kids you can send them to bed on time without being angry
You can tell her that you're working too hard and she's not giving you the appreciation that you deserve without anger. And if you can't do that, then you got to learn how to show up with that king energy more because that's not what you're bringing. You're bringing the energy of the tyrant king, the pouting little boy. So would you say that...
you wouldn't agree that that is, um, like not allowing a man to be a man that like by saying like, you can't be angry. Like it would, is that the same as telling a woman she can't be emotional? Um, no, I'm not saying you can't be angry, but again, it's kind of what you were saying is like, you can't express that anger in an unsafe way. Like I get angry all the time, but what I try to do and I fail at this often, what I try to do is like, I'll be angry.
but I'll still communicate from a place of love. If I let the anger control the way I communicate, that's when it's a problem. I'll ask you, is this how you want to be talking to me right now? And he'll go, he'll go, no. And then it'll make my anger so much worse. She's right. I'm like, I know it's not what you want to do. So like, I'm like, do you want to like circle back? Another thing too is, um, is, um, to not allow.
the internal processor that we have to dictate what is going on. So like what I mean by that is I'll give you an example. Um, Matt was, uh, upset with something. that I had done. So long story short, my son put a spoon in the microwave. Okay. And I freaked out because I was like, oh my God, it's going to explode. Yeah.
So I'm running and I'm like yelling. I'm like, ah, sure. Why did you put the food in the microwave? And I'm like pressing the button and my son's, you know, you're super emotional. Cause like, he's not used to mom getting mad or yelling or anything like that. And he's also not used to mom being really scared. And so he was like, he started crying.
And I was like, Oh my goodness. Like I felt so terrible. Right. But I was like in panic mode, but because of the spoon and Matt comes out and he, and he, he talks to me and he goes and he was.
saying very reasonable things about my behavior that it was like i kind of flew off the handle and it was uncalled for essentially even though in my i really thought i was i was like i had to freak out because of the i thought it was going to explode but anyway and And my initial like reaction was like of I was angry because I felt like he was.
in my like my internal like um decoder system i heard you're a bad mom i didn't hear your behavior should be different or you should calm down or you shouldn't do i heard uh you're a bad mom and So in the past I would, I would go off that. Like that was my truth was what I was feeling about it. Not what he actually said. And I would just, and then I'd have to like win. I have to win that battle because how.
I have to defend the fact that I'm a good mom, right? So what I'll do is I'll slow down, I'll breathe, like I take a deep breath, and I'm like, I'm still feeling the anger, my heart's racing, my face is flushing, right? And I'm like, When you say this, do you mean...
that you think I'm a bad mom? And he's like, no. In what world did you get that from? Like, I did not say that's not what I mean. I think you're an amazing mother. I just think this. And I'm like, okay, okay, cool. Okay, I can work with that. Yeah, okay, you're right. You know, so. not letting our own assessment of the communication like to be to be what's accurate because often it's not and it takes asking questions and like going a bit deeper before we get to the truth of it and
The other piece of that is like I'm choosing to trust him. I'm choosing to trust what he's telling me he thinks versus what I think he thinks, right? And we all do that so much. We assign intention to people. We assign ideas. We assign all these different things. And we bring all of our past experiences and relationships into our current ones. And it's like, well, so-and-so did when they.
When they said this, they meant that. So that's what you must mean, right? So anyway, it's just, it's a lot of like slowing down, right? And breathing and like, yeah. And so both of us experience anger, but. we don't get angry at one another or we try very, very hard. Yeah. We, we try to, especially me. Like I try to own it quickly and just become back and be like, I still think I was right. But like what I said was not right. So I'll go back and like, Hey, I got to eat shit on this one. Like.
Yeah. And same. I do too. Like there were, I can't even remember, but there was something happening a couple of weeks ago where like I came back to Matt and I was like, Hey, like that was.
I shouldn't have done that and whatever it was. And I was wrong. And, you know, and then he's like, oh, you didn't have to come. You were fine. But I'm like, yeah, well, and that's, that's been the crazy thing is like the more accountability I take, um, when he will come up, like after, like I was being a little.
bitch and I was I was being whiny and I was blaming her for things like I was I was totally in the wrong and she'll come back to me and be like hey you know um you made a good point I shouldn't have said this and like I'm sorry for that and I was like oh
That was actually totally on me, but thank you. So yeah, the accountability thing can go both ways, but there has to be that safety first and that leading by example of like, hey, I'm willing to take my accountability. Well, we had someone in our home actually that witnessed. that argument the one with i thought he was calling me a bad mom for the spoon um situation and uh the person who was there was like he was watching it and he said to me after he's like can you
can you teach my wife how to react that way? Like, you know, because Matt was really harsh there. He was really harsh. He goes, you were so calm. And I was like, No, I can't because it's Matt. That's how he shows up every day in our relationship and has for the last several years that has allowed me to be this way. Now, this is who I am now and this is who I'll be.
hopefully forever and i and i'm this way in every interaction it's who i've become but it took him leading by example and giving me that that profound um incredible sense of safety and like trust for me to be able to like let my walls down and not fight him anymore and believe him, you know? So yes, I can give women tools. I can tell them all the things I did, but. in the heat of the moment when they're feeling all those deep emotions.
no, I can't guarantee that she's going to react the way I did because what are you doing? Right. Life's not a vacuum. No, exactly. Yeah. The shouting thing is interesting and tying it, tying it to safety. makes so much sense when you say it out loud. I was doing this podcast and, um, we had these like rules of engagement laid out prior, like there, it was going to be respectful, like no bringing up certain topics.
And I like sat there for six and a half hours where this person is like breaking every single rule essentially. And it's six and a half hours. And I'm like, I've got to go. Like he started screaming and cursing at me. And I was like, I am not going to show women that this is okay to let a man talk. to you this way and I'm not going to show men that it's okay to talk to a woman this way and his argument was
because of feminism and equality that he now gets to treat women how he would treat a man. And I was like, I dare you to talk to me like that in front of any of my guy friends or like my man, it's not going to end well for you. And he's like, well, you guys.
quality so I'm sorry you don't like my tone but it's like are you now in the camp that like there's no difference between men and women because there fundamentally is so maybe you can get away with like yelling at another guy i don't see that going well for good you're gonna end up in fists but um
And maybe in your world, that's okay. But I don't know any person that is like sane or like locked down, grounded in reality that thinks that's, that's okay to talk to a woman or a child that way. You just don't because you're bigger, stronger and it's just inappropriate. It just shows me that you're. not in control of yourself or your expression. And in the parenting community right now, it's a really big point of contention is
can you yell at your kid? Because some people say we're making kids really soft and we're making them fragile. And I see this. everything is uh constantly like everything is um power versus force right so if you're forcing something you're gonna get it met on the other side so what i see is now these parents that are trying to advocate for spanking and hitting your kid again and they're like see like this is that this actually worked i was like no it doesn't like you can look at all this
It doesn't work at all. But they see these kids that can't handle life. So now you have people that are kind of in the middle and they're saying, can you shout at your kid or yell at your kid as a parenting tool? And there's this really big podcast or things, names like Josh. Delaney, maybe.
I think another guy talking about relationships, right? Yeah. And he says the same thing that you make them feel fundamentally unsafe. And then you're trying to demand emotional regulation out of this little whose brain's not done when you yourself are not emotionally regulated because you're yelling.
So I'm in the camp of no yelling. I certainly fall short of that. I'm I wish it was it's like every day I want to be one percent better, but I absolutely yell and trying to do it less. And I do agree that you shouldn't if you. can put in the work to not do it, but I don't know what you're, I'm going to, I'm going to guess what you're. Yeah. I mean, I, yeah, I, I consider every time I yell as a failure and I fail, you know, a few times a year.
But I always look like I do. Everything in my life is like, okay, first and foremost, what was my role in that? It's like, well, they were bugging the shit out of me for 45 minutes before I yelled. Right. It's like, I probably should have stopped them 42 minutes ago. And I didn't. I also don't think, you know, once in a while, if, if the kids get yelled at.
If it's in the context of like a generally healthy parenting style, it's like, you know what? At least the first time they get yelled by somebody else, it's not going to be brand new to them. It's not the end. It's not the end of the world. Like, I don't think it does.
a lot of damage. If you yell once in a while, I think it's like if it's regular, but yeah, I look at it the same way as look in the relationship. It's like, I, if I get angry enough to yell, that's always because there was something I should have said that I didn't say or something I should have did that I didn't do.
And I have to track that so that, you know, if I yell at Whitney, I can go, okay, well, what happened? It's like, well, you know, I'll make up an example. You know, she, whatever, threw out my nicotine pouches 19 times in a row. And every time she did, I said, oh no, it's okay.
And then the 20th time I just yelled at her and lost my shit. It's like, well, probably on the first time I said, Hey, I don't appreciate when you do that. You might not like these, which she's fine with them, but theoretically you might not like that. I have nicotine pouches, but those are mine. I don't want you to throw them out. Right.
the fact that I let it get to that point where I had to explode is because I didn't actually have a strong enough no before then. So I look at anger and yelling very much as like, I have. failed at some point along the way that led to that moment. And that's where I should focus my attention. It's like, where did I fail? What could I have done to not get that angry? Yeah, no, for sure. Like, you know, when our kids, if our daughter.
She's seven. Our 12 year old is a little bit better at picking up after himself. But, you know, if I'm cleaning up after her regularly and she's used to that. And then one day I decide the mess is too much and I freak out at her. It's like, well, why wasn't I teaching her to? to clean up from the get-go, right? That's on me. If I lose my cool because she made a mess, but in her world, making a mess is okay because she's never been told otherwise. It's like, yeah, that's definitely.
Yeah. If I, if y'all that circumstance, that's like, okay, well I should have clearly been more patient making sure she cleans up the last two weeks. Yeah. I should have, I should have set those, put those boundaries in place. Like we, this is what we do, you know? So I also, yeah, I'm with you. I don't. I don't ever want to yell at my children. But yeah, it's definitely happened.
like in the last story but yeah yeah we're all human yes we're gonna fall short in so many ways oh yeah so when you have these men that are signing up for the program um one of the things i was saying in the car is women, like you guys will hang in there. You'll white knuckle it and you will stay.
There's like this very shallow, low hanging fruit to blame all women for the end of relationships. Well, women are responsible for initiating 70% of divorces. Well, what they don't say is in those relationships or in like the end of those relationships, if you were to actually. ask like most guys are like oh like yeah it was amicable by the time of the divorce um
But I think in the beginning, like there, there is a chunk of guys that kind of feel blindsided and they're like, well, where is this coming from? Like everything seems fine and we've been good. And women tend to kind of even subconsciously kind of. hold on to like every little infraction or any little moment that you felt unsafe and we can say that we have forgiven you and maybe we think that we do but at some point like that
weight becomes too much to bear. And then I think that's what kind of gets the ball rolling. Um, so how, like, what are some things that men can look for that will be able to maybe like be an injunction before it gets to that point?
Yeah. So one of the things to understand about women is that they communicate really differently right and this whole like men and women are equal legally thing does not mean that men and women are functionally identical in the same right and we kind of confuse equality with sameness and women communicate differently than men and if i was to say to whitney like
you know, Oh, you wore those shoes on our date. Like she would remember that. And she could not wear those shoes again on our date. Right. If she would say to me, I'd be like, Oh, And that's the extent of my whole thought press. Like that's, that's the whole, that's the whole thing. Um, so what happens so often in relationships and we see this like every day is she'll have been making those little comments for years and he will literally not know. And this is super, super common.
And we'll be working through with our client, like, hey, you know, what went wrong? What's she unhappy about? And he does not know. And I know if I talk to her, she'd be like, I have told him a thousand times. So a lot of it just comes down to communication.
Yes. Would it be more effective if women learn to communicate more explicitly? Like, yeah, 100%. That's something we work on all the time is like, okay, Whitney, I hear where you're coming from. But next time I need to actually say words that I understand.
because i didn't explicit yeah you have to be very explicit because i don't read in between the lines like i don't and when you say with the kids like i won't notice things that the kids need and when you will notice them and it's super obvious to her right so she assumes that i'm the same way it's like i'm not like
I need clear instructions. So, but again, we don't work with women. So we work with men. And so what I tell what men to do is until you kind of safely coach her on how to communicate with you more explicitly, you're going to have to read between the lines because if you don't, you will be blindsided. And so if she's made a lot of comment about...
whatever, the dishes, it's like, okay, well, what does that actually mean? And he'll start saying, well, I actually do the dishes more. He's like, okay, you might do the dishes more than her, but there's some underlying emotional need she's trying to express to you. She thinks she's expressing it really clearly and you're not.
not answering because you don't love her because you don't see her because you don't care. And in reality, you don't even notice. You don't know. So you have to learn to interpret. And yeah, it's work. It's a pain in the ass. It would be nicer if it wasn't. Gay marriage is legal.
If you want a relationship where you don't have to work on your communication, go try that out. Maybe that's your thing. And you'll have lots of sex. You'll have lots of sex. The communication will be no issue. Very low divorce rate. But assuming you want to be married to a feminine woman, you've got to learn how to communicate in this way.
And so, you know, the safe scene, special supported, like every complaint that she has is one of those four categories. And so if she's complaining about the dishes, you might do 99% of the dishes. What she's really saying is I don't feel emotionally supported in this relationship.
And if you want a relationship that thrives instead of heading towards this connection, you better pay attention and learn to speak her language. And once you have learned to speak her language, then you can teach her to speak yours. But if you lead in that category and you're like, okay.
I actually understand where she's coming from. You won't be blindsided. And this is the first work we do with guys that we're working with is like, okay, we're going to excavate the history of little comment she's made to you and we're going to figure it out. And then you can go to her and say, Hey, I finally get it. And she goes,
I've been saying this and she's just so relieved and she starts crying. She's like, I'm trying to get you to understand this for years. And he's like, I just didn't know what the hell you meant. I didn't get it. So that's one piece that really has to be worked on. And I actually forget the question though. It was, I'm trying to remember too. We were talking about not, not.
letting it get to the point of separation or divorce so like what can a man look out for to find that she's like truly unhappy so he's not like okay i didn't see this coming so again you guys aren't mind readers i think it's called a cross-sex mind reading is the expectation and we Both are going to always fall short because you're not a woman and I'm not a man. We don't do different languages. Yeah. Yeah. We speak different languages.
Yeah. Yeah. Like, like with my buddies, like if I'm annoying them, they're just gonna be like, stop being annoying. So would you say like probably nagging is one of them? Okay. Yeah. So, so specific signs. Um, so this is, this is a bit of a conceptual answer, but I'll give the practical part at the end. If a woman is in a state of disconnect, she's going to put on her disconnected glasses.
And she's going to look back at the history of the relationship and all she's going to see is disconnect. If she's feeling unsupported, she's going to put on the unsupported glasses. She's going to look back at history of the relationship. She's only going to see how you haven't supported her. And so if she's looking at.
the history of your relationship, the present of your relationship or the future of your relationship. And she's saying, it's always been this way and it's always going to be this way. She's in a state of disconnect from you. If you don't recognize that, that disconnect is going to grow and you guys are going to end. So that's a really big sign to look through is like, oh, you always do things this way. You've always been this way. And for guys, that's so confusing because we're like, hold on.
we always have bad sex. It's like, you've told me we've had amazing sex a thousand times. Like this doesn't make any sense. Like, okay, she's got those disconnected glasses on. You have to figure out why those disconnected glasses are on. And if you can.
she'll take those glasses off and she'll put on the connected glasses and then you've always had great sex and you've always been supported and it's always going to be amazing and this is why in so many relationships it's like she says she wants to get divorced this week and the next week she wants to plan a vacation in eight months and the guy's like what is happening like which one is it's like well she
had different glasses on and you need to recognize that um so that's that's the big one i look for is if she's seeing the whole history relationship is always bad that's a reflection of what she's feeling right now Because women, men act very much from like their beliefs and principles. And a good thing we do, because we have to learn to like sublimate our emotions to our beliefs. Otherwise the world would be very violent. Right. So we learned at a young age, like.
I have to do what I believe is right and not what I feel. Whereas women, the magic that they offer the world is like they feel everything and they can experience everything and they're in the moment. And so they're acting from what they feel. They're playful. And so if she is...
acting in a way that seems bitter and disconnected it's because she is feeling bitter bitter and disconnected and you better recognize that and learn how to flick that love switch back on and get her in a healthy place i love what you just said about emotions for men and that you guys have to kind of
have that discipline and almost like essentially like a, be a little bit disconnected or have like a little bit of space, like intentional disconnection is I've never heard anyone word it that way. And that's actually makes so much sense because. in this place where I think everything's an overcorrection. We're trying to make everything super feminine now because of like the patriarchy and we're trying to like make men.
I think it may be a little bit too emotional. Um, there is a shadow to that and I, I'm not a dude. So like I never piece that together, but that makes perfect sense. There's nothing more dangerous than a man who can't control his emotions.
Like there is a time and a place for man to feel everything fully, to express it fully. It's probably not in the middle of a fight with your wife. And you see a lot of these men, especially the men who are more in like, you know, that side of things like, you know.
f the patriarchy and all that um they're completely controlled by their emotion and their resentment and they're like these weak passive bitter unhelpful unproductive useless men um a man who's not in control of his emotions is not a man full stop and so
you know, I cried during every Disney movie I watch and, you know, I'm very in touch with my emotions, but like, I know when to step back from them and you have to be able to do that as a man. And then I go, okay. It's so different. Like there's even, um, So this is something I've picked up on just listening to different men speaking at.
you know during podcasts or whatever the amount of times i've heard a man say you know and i like you know i was imagining you know like murdering the guy because you know who hasn't done that who hasn't imagined killing someone and i'm like what i've literally never imagined killing someone I've imagined killing like four people today. So it's like, we're so different in that way. And so yes, like no one is saying that men, your emotions don't matter. No, they matter so much more because of.
what goes on you know the capability exactly and so it's like that's why it's so important to to be in control of them and i think that a lot of the that's where a lot of people get get wrong where a lot of people go wrong when they hear these kinds of discussions sometimes is they think we're saying that like men's feelings don't have a place or that they just need to be in control all the time be stoic and women are the ones that can just go be emotional emotional infants and whatever
It's like, no, no, no. There's a different weight to our emotions and a man's emotions. And there's nothing more powerful that you can do in a relationship is when... you know, like if, if when he's just like having a bad day or a bad week or it's that part of the month and she's like a little bit off the rocker a little bit and I can just be there and be like, I'm not threatened by your emotions. Like you, you, you need to kind of just like, ah, it's like, okay, like I'm here for that. Like.
I'm right here. I'm looking at you in the eyes. I usually preface it now. I'm like, just so you know. Well, that's the thing that happens. I always warn everybody. If you're like a self-aware woman, which a lot of women aren't. And if you can just be that.
non-reactive emotionally stable presence when somebody's not feeling that way it's like that's a real gift to offer and the thing is like you do that enough like when i'm being a little bitch sometimes whitney will be there for me and like she'll be that place of stability that was not the case before
right yeah no and i and i actually i i love when i when i can be like i get to be this for him now like that's that's pretty cool it feels good you know i don't look at you and think oh what a weak what a weak pathetic man i'm like oh baby like
you know see and that's the narrative that gets pushed too is that you are not allowed to ever falter because she'll run run the other way and i would say that that's a fundamental flaw within the woman because it's saying i feel so unsafe within myself that if you don't provide
all of my safety, I got to get out of here. So like, I do think one of the main rules for men is like presence, purpose, protection, providing all of those P's. Um, but you're not going to be perfect and you're going to get sick and you're going to get old and there's going to.
to be hardship and you should be able to be human. And I like can come in with that nurturing and like be that harbor for you and not be so scared and have to run away. So it's all a balance and everyone has to kind of work on themselves, but it's also how do you show up to. support the other person at the highest level. That's the beauty of the feminine, right? Like being able to create harmony and peace and love.
He loves when I make him food. When I take care of him in my ways, he loves it so much. The joy in his face. He's so excited when I do these things. You bring me a glass of water when I'm working, I'm like, oh. I feel the same way, right? So when I get to be in my feminine, I get to bring in softness. I get to be playful with him. I get to tease him, flirt with him, touch him.
I like to look at my role as bringing harmony. I love making our home beautiful and clean and setting things up, like snacks for the kids and dinner. I don't know, like just making everybody just kind of feel like they're home, like our house is our home, right? And that's how I get to take, that's one of the ways I get to take care of him. It's a give and a take. And I think when you're in a healthy place.
there's a joy in the giving as much as there is in the receiving, you know, and that's, that's that nice healthy balance of masculine and feminine is, um, yeah, it's, it's a beautiful thing to be able to provide, you know?
Yeah. And that's when you know that the relationship is in a good spot. It's like, you are happy to help. You're happy to give your, like their happiness is your happiness. And it's not, it's not a chore or something you have to do. You're not obligated. You're like, no, I get to do this. This is amazing. sex stuff like even like you know when we're not the sex stuff like what i mean like when i'm not necessarily in the mood um
you know, there's still things I can do to make him happy and I'm happy to do it. Oh, for sure. Like I'm, even though I don't necessarily like need to get into my. pleasure. But I'm like, I get to please you. That feels good too. You know? Yeah. Act of service. Yeah. We love acts of service. Everyone's favorite love language. So the last thing I wanted to get into was like, what do you wish more?
men knew about women and what do you wish more women knew about men? I wish that men could really get it through their heads, like really believe us when we say that we are so... different you know when men will say oh this is this is bs she just she needs to grow up she needs to be an adult she needs to do this it's like we are adults but we're female adults we're not
male we're never going to communicate like you maybe in an office setting you know when we're in our masculine because we have to be and we're in that situation that we can kind of put on our like our man hats and and do that you know but when we're in our space of comfort in an intimate relationship. Like we don't want to be men. I don't think you want us to be men either. And that means that you're.
If you want the feminine, you want a woman, you have to ride the waves with her, or at least let her ride her waves. Be the lighthouse in her ocean of emotions and feelings. We are not you. We're truly different. Don't speak the same language. Hear, hear. Yeah. Yeah, I'd kind of say basically the same thing, but the inverse.
I think this is the number one thing that's causing damage in relationships today is that we don't understand that men and women play different roles in relationships. And I'm not saying to go back to the 1950s because... I don't think anybody wants to do that. I definitely don't want that for me or for Whitney, but there's a reason why over.
many, many tens of thousands of generations, we've evolved certain different roles. And if you try to throw that all out and design it from scratch or pretend it doesn't exist, like you're in for a very rocky road in a relationship.
it's important that men understand that they can bring certain things to the table that are a gift to her. If you can bring emotional stability when she's not feeling emotionally stable, that's a gift. If you can be capable of anger and protective violence, but never direct that towards her. in any way, that's a gift. And we have certain things that as men only we can really fully bring to the relationship if you're a masculine man and a feminine woman.
expecting her to behave like a man, to take accountability in the same way as a man, to be explicit like a man, it might feel good to leave that on a comment on an Instagram video because you're like, yeah, fuck all women. They're immature. You're not recognizing that. who you are as a man is a gift to women and you can give them something that they don't have in exactly the same way that you do. And if you do a good job of that, they're going to give you back things that you don't have.
But if you're waiting for them to act like men and you still want her to be feminine, it's like, good luck, I guess. That doesn't really work. If you want a man to act exactly like a woman, but then be really feminine, it's like, no wonder you are bitter and leaving. angry comments all the time. What do you want women to know about men? What do I want women to know? Was that the question? No, but that was fantastic. What do I want women to know about men? You cannot be too obvious.
like no matter how obvious you think you've made it I promise you he's only halfway there at most right so like if you think that by saying you know
whatever, I need more help around the house. He actually knows what you mean. Like he doesn't, right? If you think he's like, Oh, you know, it's nice that Bill and Susie go for dates all the time. He doesn't think that that means you should, he should take you on more dates. He thinks, do you think it's nice that Bill and Susie go on dates? Like that's all he.
thinks. So if you want something from him, just tell him, give him really clear instructions, say this is what you need. And then if he thinks it's a dumb idea, he'll be like, that's dumb. And if he thinks it's doable, he'll say, yeah, of course, no problem. Like we are like. sled dogs like we like having something to pull and like if you tell us exactly what it is we'll be like thrilled to do that for you and
We will do that for you for the rest of our lives with only a very small requirement of like appreciation and respect when we're doing those things. And men want to serve women. We really do. We don't want to be employees for them. We don't want to be treated like employees.
If we can, from a position of like feeling appreciation and respect, like do all these things for you that make you happy, that makes us really, really happy to do that. So just like say exactly what you want us to hear because we don't get it.
This is so much fun. We have to do this again next time that I'm back. But before we wrap up, do you want to tell the listeners how they can support you, where they can find your work, sign up for your course, all that good stuff? Yeah, for sure. So we have we work mostly with men whose relationships are in.
some state of disrepair she's leaving she's thinking of leaving she's already left and we have coursework we have a bunch of amazing amazing coaches we have an amazing community and we only teach stuff that has worked for me that works for other men there's no theoretical stuff it's not talking about your feelings all day it's like this is what your situation is this is what to do and it's very sequential and it's very very effective and
We only really work with committed men so men who actually want to make the relationship work if you're not sure There's lots of other resources out there for you go explore them if you are definitely committed to making this work and seeing if it can work We would love to work with you. And yeah, at the underscore sovereign underscore man on Instagram.
And we will link all of that below before you sign off. If you can leave us a five star review, make sure you hit like and subscribe. Check the sponsors and affiliates underneath this video. I use or have used everything that I'm. Pushing towards you guys. You will love it. And we will see you next episode. Bye, everybody.