Have you ever thought about the expression state of mind? This mental and emotional condition you have for certain moments. Call encompassing your thoughts, your feelings, your attitudes, triggers emotions like happiness and anger or cognitive states like focus, confusion, or creativity. What's fascinating is that a state of mind is dynamic. It can change based on your circumstances. It's like the switch where you're suddenly optimistic or pessimistic, certain or uncertain, secure or insecure.
In other words, how we interpret these situations, impact how we make decisions, how we respond to our environment. In fact, it encompasses our entire well-being. Today's show, I wanna modify the well known idiom you are what you eat. 1 that expresses the idea that food we consume directly influences our moods. 2, you are where you are, that your physical surroundings
could determine your state of mind. Spaces that we occupy, any place that we move into, we have cognitive and precognitive reactions, and those reactions have physiological and psychological reactions of our body. My guest today is Tai Ferro. He's an architect redefining what it means to create not only beautiful spaces, but places in which you can thrive. His work just isn't about aesthetics. It's about designing environments that
actively promote our well-being. And when I talk about well-being, it's our body, our soul, our mind, and our health. Positive stimulating environments do a whole range of things to our bodies, reduce stress, decrease blood pressure, enhance memory and learning. And as we've heard, they strengthen
our neural networks. He's just released his groundbreaking and best selling book, Constructing Health, and tied Del's into the science behind how spaces are physicality can influence not just how we live, but how we feel, and more importantly, how we feel better. We need to begin to think of the spaces we create as noninvasive therapeutic treatments. He dances across this intersection of
neuroscience and architecture. He'll explain the concept of salutogenic design, design that actively insights health and how you can apply it to urban spaces at homes and schools and hospitals. Imagine from the places we live to the hospitals where we heal. These physical spaces have the ability to make us feel better, feel better in the way we think, feel, and do. Hi. It's Tony Chapman. Thank you for listening to Chatter That Matters presented
by RBC. If you can, please subscribe to the podcast. And ratings reviews, well, they're always welcome and they're always appreciated. Ty Ferrell, welcome to Chatter That Matters. Great to be here, Tony. Lovely to see you as always. Hey, you know, it was wonderful to originally cross paths with you at Bishop Strahan and some of the amazing work you did in that school. And to me, I never imagined that when you were designing, you're also thinking about sort of the
health and mental well-being of the students. And that's why I'm so fascinated to unpack your new book and talk a little bit more about what you're doing in terms of this sort of state of place and state of mind. Bishop Strong, that that was in the early days, and I think I knew a variety of these ideas in your gut. You had that gut feeling, but I didn't have the material to support it. So let's talk about this journey of learning you're on. Where's the concept of just becoming an
architect? Where did that come from? You've talked about this idea, you are, where you are. You are as a result of where you are. I grew up in Oakville. I was born in Oakville just outside of Toronto, and I came from home from the hospital, and I arrived into a brand new designed house. My father is a retired architect. So he designs this house in sort of a suburban street and it has a big wall of, you know, handcrafted brick. And all the neighbors thought, well, these guys must not
be social because there's no window. But you walk through a courtyard and the courtyard has birch trees, it has time growing, and you can sense, you can smell it. You then pass into a dining room that's all Scandinavian furniture, wood, curved, And then you continue into the stairs go down, the roof slopes up into this living room that looks out over these huge big trees. And all I remember is lying on the floor in the sunlight staring up at
these these trees. But the important thing about this house, my father was inspired by this guy called Richard Neutra. Richard Neutra grew up in Austria in and around the 19 thirties, and his best friend was Sigmund Freud's son. So he was immersed in that whole frothy period of inside space and outside space, but Neutra then goes on. He because of the war, he moves to the United States. He moves to Chicago, and he gets hired by this
psychologist. And he designs the level house, which is known as the health house, on the cover of Time Magazine because it's incorporating all of these ideas that sort of came through Freud. And and he then writes this very important book called Survival Through Design, which is certainly my book is obviously an an inspiration on where he was. Another place that seemed to inspire you was that as a young kid walking into Ontario Place for the first time. And I remember you talking
about it, in an interview with Stacy Shoemaker. So tell me a little bit more about that. You come in under these pavilions that are floating everywhere, you know, over the water. The light is reflecting on the underside. You can go up top, and there's the big views. You can go walk along those wood walkways, you know, with all the cafes that didn't exist in Toronto at the time. And then the landscape, you know, those paths that go up to The Forum, sitting on the
grass and and watching music? That place as a really inspirational space that's invigorating and restorative designed by Ebb Seidler, the great Toronto architect. Curiously, Ebb Seidler, I ended up meeting, but he was a thesis adviser when I did my thesis at U of T. And he I ended up doing my thesis with him, and he was a real humanist. Ended up working for him and then went and opened an office with him in
in London. But this idea, like I talked with with Stacy, this idea of beginning to link together these ideas of health and well-being in both an invigorating and in a restorative way. U of T, and a lot of people would say that's a pretty good degree, but it seems to be you're on this educational journey.
Next, you go to Harvard for urban design. While you're at that place, let's keep using the word place, what influences did you gain there that you felt gonna be part of my knapsack as I went I've been going through life? Harvard was amazing, and the degree was, for me, interesting because the first degree was in architecture, and the second one was about architecture and urban design. And so urban design isn't just
about buildings. It's the edge of the buildings, the spaces, or as you say, the places and the landscapes in behind in between. But what when I'm there, I come across, as we all know, Frederick Law Olmsted. Who's Frederick Law Olmsted? Well, he's known as the great father of landscape architecture. And what did he design? Well, that place we'd love to go to when we go to New York, which is Central Park. And so we know him as this fantastic landscape architecture. But you know what?
He wasn't a landscape architect. But in fact, he was a public health activist. He was the founder of the US Sanitary Commission, which is the forerunner for the Red Cross, and he used design to cause ecological, physical, societal, and mind health. And I started to think, am I actually an architect? Am I a designer? Or in fact, should I be thinking of myself
as a public health activist? Do you think in some ways you're this silver ball in this pinball game bouncing off these extraordinary people because your next part of this sort of who am I gonna be takes you to Venice. And while you're there studying in Venice, you also, in your spare time, decide that you you have a strategy for saving Venice. So talk to me a little
bit about what happens there. You know, I had this gut feeling that the environments influence and change us, And I came across a book, this was just before the pandemic, probably 2 years. This amazing lady called Sarah Goldhagen, writer for New York Times, great teacher, and she writes this amazing book called Welcome to Your World, which effectively lays out the neuroscience architecture connection, how
the mind is influenced by the environment. I then decide to go to I submit a paper for something called the Academy of Neuroscience for Architecture at the Salk Institute. I get accepted to talk, and I meet this lady and, in fact, realize she sees the connection. She's using pictures of my work in the lectures that
she's giving. And then I hear there about this program, a master of neuroscience applied to architecture and design in the 1st year at Venice, and it's the first program in the world that's looking at at the subject you're taught by the world's arguably the best neuroscientist, cognitive scientist, sociologist, and psychiatrist. So I think I'm gonna go and meet the director of this and lay out what my thinking is. I do. He's very excited about
it. And he says, you know, you can come as a fly in student, be in Venice a week a month. And I say, this is amazing. You know, there's 11,000,000 bits of information that are coming at us right now, But only, in fact, 50 of those bits per second are registering consciously, but the rest are still registering subconsciously, preconsciously, and they change us. How can we create human performance buildings? Buildings that enhance memory,
stimulate, social interaction. And so while I'm at Venice, what I begin to discover, I was there, in fact, when there was that big, Aqualto flood in 2019 in November, and walking through the streets, and literally the water is up to your waist. But the stores are still open and people are staying in chairs and cafes, sipping their coffee, but it's
like, how does the city continue? The other curious thing is, when you walk home at night from your studies in November, all of the shop lights are on, but all the buildings up above, the lights are off. And the reason is that Venice is going through something, which we've coined the the 2 floods. And it's the floods as a result of, rising, sea levels because of, environmental issues. But the second flood is the flood of mass tourism. Venice in the 19 sixties had a population of 275,000.
Right now, it's less than 50,000. That's a 70% decline, and that's because everybody has moved out because the only jobs you can get or if you wanna serve, coffees in a in in in a in a restaurant. And so what we decided was we need to change Venice because Venice, for your children and definitely your grandchildren, it won't exist. At 1.5 degree, the city, about a third of it, will be underwater, which we're around right now.
And so what the plan is was to continue doing what Venice has done since the beginning of time, which is build islands and create, a necklace, an archipelago of new and existing islands. And by doing that, you can lower the water in the middle down to historic levels. The important thing is it creates a 30 2 kilometer new park, which is very good for people to go out and have their allotment gardens. It's also bringing agritech industry in, meaning that suddenly the universities, 4 great
universities, you don't stay there. Like at U of T, you get a degree, you start a business up here. There, you don't. You go because there is an opportunities. So suddenly, the sophistication of food production, food security, food export, which Venice has already done. But it's looking at economic health, societal health, physical health, and ecological health as a fundamental of city making. Amazing. I wanna now move to this incredible book, Constructing Health. I
know the reaction from the public. I know Indigo's raving about it. They consider it the book for the holiday season. How's your fellow architects reacted? Because very often when someone steps outside of what I would call the silo or the barriers or or the conditions that we're supposed to operate on and takes a practice in a new level, it it comes with both celebration and criticism. There's this amazing young architect, in the States who, was interviewing me on on,
on the book. And she said to me or I was saying, well, how's this embraced in your office? And she said to me, well, I can't talk to the partners about it. They don't believe the environment impacts your health. So there is a real mindset of of people that that really don't believe it. And in fact, I think you see that in in some of the education, but in fact, there's a whole movement about a humanist movement about architecture and humanity that, went to sleep for about a 100 years or so,
and now it's definitely emerging. And this this book is being taught, in the United States, as as we speak. You know, you talk about salutogenic design. For us that aren't architects, break that down what it means, not only for us to understand it, but if you could wave a magic wand and see the world starting to embrace it, how our life would change? Salutogenesis is exactly
what your show is about. In fact, I think you need to re rename your show, the Saluda Salutogenic Soul podcast because your podcast, as I understand it, is discussing with people that have gone through extraordinary circumstances often very negative and have come out of it in a transformed way. And Salutogenesis is exactly about that. Let me step back a little bit. It was coined by a guy called Antonovsky, who was a Israeli American doctor, and he studied people that went
through terrible, terrible situations. And in fact, a number of them that went through the holocaust. And he couldn't understand why some of these people came through such an experience, but were really able to frame a way forward. So he coined this word called slutogenesis. Very few of us know that word, but do you know the word pathogens, pathogenic? Of course, we do. And pathogenic comes from the root words that land in the Greek words of pathogenesis, which is meaning disease and the
origins. Our whole medical system is a pathogenic system, stopping bad things from happening. Salutogenesis comes from the Latin and the root words of solace and genesis. Solace, the goddess of of health and well-being. So instead of stopping bad things from happening, Salutogenesis is about health creation, this idea of a sense of coherence and meaning a sense of purpose. So, Tony, if you don't have a sense of
purpose, you're probably not gonna get up in the morning. And he sort of supported that concept around 3 ideas, which was about comprehensibility, manageability, and meaningfulness. Meaning, do you see a path forward? Do you think you have the resources to to get you through it? But more importantly, that you have meaning and purpose. But think of the buildings you come into. Do you know where the front door is? How do I get into this building? So the sense of coherence doesn't
exist. The manageability when you get in, do you know how to move through it? The comprehensibility, but most importantly, the buildings communicate meaning and purpose to us, which gives us that extra spring in our step. The statistic that I discovered, which shows exactly where we are, we are in a period that's only about a 150 years old Western evidence based medicine that is a pathogenic view. For 3000 years of human history, which I trace in the book, we had a salutogenic view,
but we shifted away. And the evidence is there are 8,000 known causes or symptoms of disease, but there's only 80 known causes or symptoms of health and well-being. My purpose with the book is to begin to change our mindset towards a fluidogenic view. What's it like for you walking into places now where I would imagine most architects view it, try to understand the motivations behind it, but now you're looking at it from sort of the body and mind and soul of the individual.
I think myself as well as the team I collaborate, we're just a lot more intentional about what we do and, in fact, the way we see, being able to really connect the dots of what enhances human performance. How receptive are clients to this? Because ultimately, the end the end game is someone that's gonna work in that building, someone who's gonna find their spirits elevated.
In fact, the the clients have been extraordinarily, responsible, and and we work primarily with purpose based organizations, lots in in in the health and and the knowledge sectors edge education. It's shifting away a little bit from the analogy I like to use is a lot of the buildings we create are like hamburgers. Well, a hamburger is very functional, isn't it? You don't need a knife and a fork and a plate. You can hold it in your hands and and consume it. It does what it asks you to
do, doesn't it? Gives you protein and calories, but it leaves you feeling empty after about an hour you had it, and it does more damage to you because the sodium content and all the over processed nature of it. A lot of our buildings are like that. They're transactional. They only do what they're asked for. With our clients though, Tony, if you spend, say, $1 on a building, how much do you spend over the life of that
building on the heating and the cooling of it? $5. Well, that's a lot of money, so you better focus on the mechanical, the electrical systems, the envelope so it's functional from that standpoint. But how much do you spend on the people inside the building through the life of that? $10? 50? 100? It's $200.
If you if there's 1 penny 1 cent of that dollar that has an impact on the performance, memory, social interaction, creativity, empathy, learning, as a result of the design decisions, it has massive impact on on an organization. And so when we get into those discussions, the clients say, you're absolutely right. And we can see it as a result of the performance of of the buildings we create.
What is that cost benefit analysis? Because some of these investments might take a little bit more upfront, but there is a payback period. Whether it's putting in a heat pump, additional insulation, those are all decisions that you should be thinking about as you go through that process, and they will pay you back over time. What you heard was words of wisdom from Leah Robinson, who's gonna join me later
in the show and talk about greener homes. But when we return, Kai and I continue to talk about homes and buildings being more than just a place to be, but a place to be healthier. And of course, my 3 takeaways. Hi. It's Tony Chapman from Shatter That Matters. RBC is offering more financing options to support Canadian homeowners looking
to maximize their property's potential. Whether you want to provide supportive housing for a family member or supplement your income with a rental, RBC's Construction Mortgage Multi Units Program has you covered. You can finance additions like laneway homes, garden suites, modular units, or even redevelop your home into duplexes or triplexes. Speak to an RBC mortgage specialist today to see how this program can work for you. Maximizing the potential of
your home? Well, that matters to you, to me, and to RBC. My guest today is Tai Farrow. I'm proud to call him a Canadian architect, but he's world renowned for integrating neuroscience in architectural design. When he does so, it promotes our health and well-being. Not only does he design buildings that are a place to be, but also wants to be healthy.
Do you see a time when a Faroe building, people that are leasing it, people that are involved with filling it with people can say to them, this has the same or even greater benefit than the building that might be 2 blocks over that's on a subway station. In other words, if there's real value in terms of how they market the building because to me, capitalism also has to inherit this philosophy saying this is good business for you to be located here. Well, let me give you
an example of that. So we have just opened about a year ago the largest, most important cancer center in the ancient city of Jerusalem, 5000 years old. It's a building on a very big important, medical campus. So what are the metrics that that would be something that you could measure this thing, that the chair of the board would be significant?
Well, let's look at 2 stats. Right now, in Canadian hospitals globally around the world, we have a shortage of somewhere between 15 to 35 percent of doctors and nurse nurses and medical staff. We just can't get staff. Those positions are open, and we can't fill them. In Jerusalem, even relatively new hospitals have exactly the same problem. They can't get staff to fill the building. What about ours? There is a lineup of the leading medical people that wanna go and work there. There are no
empty positions. It's remarkable in the phenomenon that's happening. But what about the other side of the equation? Right now, people that have either gone through cancer or, in fact, they have lost family members, they're asking the staff if they can come and inhabit the public areas of our cancer center. They wanna come back and embrace it effectively like a community center, which
doesn't happen. And, importantly, since the hospital has been keeping patient satisfaction records, this patient satisfaction records for this billing are the highest ever that the hospital has recorded. So if you were the CEO or the chair of the board of that organization, are these stats meaningful to you? Is there anything that we should be thinking about even within our own homes to understand, you know, as I used in the opening instead of you are what you, we, you are where you are.
What we need to step back and understand the way that the mind works is the way that we build, person to place relationships is exactly our mind. It's the same way that we build person to person relationships. So what are characters and qualities of environments that offer that? In the book, I talk about one thing, and we use it a lot, is the material wood. Wood's very interesting because you can see the grain. You can imagine it growing, over time. But the important thing about wood is
that it works to all your senses. When you look at it, you see the grain. When you touch it, doesn't feel like, steel. It doesn't take the temperature from you. The other important thing is, you know, that sound on walking on wood, think of the deck up north, that relates to your theta And beta waves, which is both the positive and the negative wood works perfectly in the positive side of sound, which is lowering blood pressure, heart rate, but also the scent of what think of a sauna,
you know, that smell of cedar. That in fact does the same thing. It changes your physiology. So if we can use these tools, in our environments, they have an impact as well as I write about that you wanna linger in these spaces, you wanna spend more time with people, it changes your physiology and your biology as as a result of it. Just remember, it's using all of the
tools. We're very sort of visually focused because of Instagram and TikTok and these things, but your body, the multimodal sensorial part is the key piece of the equation. Ty, the the interesting narrative that seems to be roaring through workplaces, ordering people back to office. Why are we not creating spaces where people wanna be there and thrive being there versus feeling they have to be there?
You know, I I think the book is popular because through COVID, we began to realize that the environment has a significant effect of us, and we suddenly woke up and said, what the hell am I doing commuting to this miserable space, you know, that I feel as if I'm in a little tuna can, and in fact, the statistics show that the environment
changes your brain, your synapses. If the environment there's a great study of mice, and if the mice are in environments that are impoverished, they shrink the synapse connections. And if they're in enriched environment, in fact, they grow the synapse connections by about 25%. We voted by our feet that we don't wanna go back to the office because it's not authentic, and we found it in places we we call
home. The only way we're gonna get people back to the office is if we start focusing on people, human needs, and the ability to create the conditions of which I can thrive and prosper as opposed to merely survive. You know, I think if we do that, the same thing that happened to your Cancer Institute in Jerusalem, people will be auditioning to work for those companies, and they will have a competitive advantage because they will have a place that attracts the best of the
best. And equally stimulates them of all the complex issues that, you know, what we need to do together to solve these issues is these environments enhance the creativity, social interaction, memory, and on and on. We need to start using these spaces as, like, super, super foods, like little blueberries that are packed full of minerals and vitamins. You can do it the same to space. We have to do it intentionally. What about elderly care? Because I look at
you know, I'm doing a lot of work on longevity right now. And the thing that everybody comes back to me that are 50 plus, I don't wanna ever go there. I wanna stay in my home. Is there a lesson to be learned for for the people that are creating these spaces for people when they get to the point where they need to have some kind of assisted living that we can be doing a lot to extend the quality of their life, their cognitive ability, their their physic physical
ability? We just opened a, a facility, towards London, Ontario. The whole building is semicircular, all the public spaces. You can start in one space, and as you move through it, your view is continuously changing. You can look out to the front, you can look out at the side. And what we know is that we have to exercise our muscles or apathy, they begin to shrink away. We're creating these environments for people that are mind numbing.
And it's not only for the people, the the older people that are staying there, but in fact, it's, equally for the the the people that are working there. And we're involved in something that's called the Treehouse right now, which is, for adult living in the in the city. We're designing whole living intergenerational housing. It's good for stimulating building relationships with the older people, but equally important with, younger people. And these things we have to
do intentionally. There's a lot of affordable housing that's being built, and it's all about modular housing, you know, construction. That's great, so we can roll it out quickly. But a lot of them are like 19 fifties, you know, motels. And the whole thing about these things is they have to offer dignity, that when you're living there, you feel special. It doesn't mean a lot of money, but it means creating something that you feel you have dignity and you can flourish and thrive.
That needs to be the number one piece. It has to be affordable on time and easy to construct, but let's create conditions of which we can thrive and prosper. Clyde, where do you go from here? You strike me as you're here for a reason. The people you've met along the way, the Yodas that have embraced you, the the the learning. What are you gonna do in the next 10 years with it? Because you
could certainly turn it into just continuing to build your practice. But to me, I sense with this book and just talking with you today, there's a higher calling. What can we do through the act of place making that can bring people together to share? And these ideas, a big theme of environmental enrichment is around generosity. I mean, just think of generosity as as a common theme. You know, what's a generosity
and affordances? Affordances, you know, when you walk up to a door and you don't know if you should push or pull the door, and you feel sort of like an idiot or it says push or pull, that's not generous, and it doesn't afford you to know how to move through it. How many barriers are we creating where in fact we need to do the opposite, and we have to shift to a salutogenic, a health causing view
in all aspects. And I would say, salutogenesis, you meet people that are very salutogenic, health giving, and in fact, we know environments that are similar to that. That is the mission is to bring this forward and disseminate it widely. And so this book, it's written for students in architecture and cognitive scientists. It's written as a resource for professionals in both those areas. Got lots of data, lots of information. But most importantly, as you know, it's 11 inches square. It's got
450 images. We designed the whole book. It's very immersive. There's headings, so you you don't have to start at the beginning. You can jump into the middle. It can be a coffee table because it needs to be disseminated to the public. Because once you see it, you can't unsee it, and you question everything year round. That's the purpose.
I gotta ask you the question again that you avoid it. You, Ty Farrell, 10 years from now, are you even gonna be putting pen to paper, or are you gonna be much more someone that's you hope to lead this cause around the world that we can do a much better job with our spaces and places. As you correct, I mean, instead of about preventing health, you can be embracing and lifting how we feel, how we think, and how we do. I'm a practitioner, Tony. I I think
through through making. By the act of making, I can have significant impact, big or small. The journey so far for me has been interesting because something's come up in front of me, and I've said, well, why don't I try that or why don't I why don't I move down that path? And in fact, it's it's led to to amazing things, which is really the realization that we need to think of architecture not about what it is, but what it does and its ability to cause
health. Architecture as a noninvasive therapeutic treatment, that has the ability to be transformative, generous, offering affordances, and specifically dignity, but its ability to cause hell. So, Ty, I always end my interviews, my 3 takeaways, and I love your book. I continue to pick it up, and I continue to go to those headlines and everything you said. It certainly has that impact on me, and I know it'll have on others. I just think what's interesting about you is
these Yodas you have met along the way. You know, you end up meeting, and next thing you know, you're going a week a a month in Venice to study, and, you know, this person was connected to Freud and all of this wonderful tapestry of people that have influenced you. And it's
almost like the torch has been passed to you. You know, the second thing that you brought out is this sort of almost from transactional to transformative and using data and empirical evidence to let people open their minds to what could be easily dismissed as an intangible. Of course, I want my employees to feel better, but actually starting to put empirical evidence that says, you know, for every dollar that
building costs, $200 goes into people. Let's impact that. And I think that's just a really good advice for people that even what seems like the most ethereal or intangible or really locked into the minds of great thinkers, if you can break it down sometimes into the simplest of math, you can impact change. And I think you do that extraordinary well. And then the final thing that you came back to me and said, I love the art of making. Sometimes we get promoted beyond what we
love to do. Sometimes we chase financial rewards beyond what we love to do. But if there's something you love and you're passionate about and can impact others, can transform others' lives, that is a good life lived. So for all of that and more, Ty Ferro, I'm I'm just honored you join me on Chatter That Matters. Tony, it's amazing to be with you because the the people that that you you have, you tell a story about a journey.
Joining me now is Leah Robinson. She's the vice president of home equity financing at RBC. Leah, welcome. Tony, thanks for having me. I'm happy happy to join you today on this important topic. Let's talk about green homes. There's an there's an incredible appetite to do more for mother nature. But when I
talk to people, they always talk about how expensive it is. Is there anything you're doing from your end to help people to kind of treat our planet better and at the same time be a little kinder to their pocketbook? You know, I think one of the things that people don't know is is what large polluters, buildings and homes are, both both commercial and and residential. And so there's actually a big opportunity here from a housing perspective to look at
how do we solve that problem. And so when you look at things like retrofitting homes and building homes, we have a great opportunity in Canada to really start tackling this problem differently. Where consumers are looking at some of this is there still is, you know, some
consideration of what that green premium looks like. And so there's a real factor that needs to come into play in terms of looking at what is that cost benefit analysis because some of these investments might take a little bit more upfront, but there is a payback period, whether it's putting in a heat pump, additional insulation, windows and doors that are that that
will help keep the heat in your home. Those are all decisions that you should be thinking about as you go through that process, and they will pay you back over time. And if I went to RBC with that idea, is that something you'd also help me to understand is what is the payback on that green investment? We're building tools and resources, for customers. One of the the common pieces that people do is get an energy audit, which is an outside professional, that would do
that evaluation on your home. Our mortgage specialists are great. They know a lot about about mortgage financing and things like that, but climate, and and impacts of homes really serve that growing area. So there's information, there's tools and resources. We're looking at what we can do, but I'd say one of the best things to start out is is looking at getting that energy audit, and helping you to better understand what would be unique and best to do to your home and your given your specific
circumstances. Leah Robinson, as always, a pleasure to have you on, Chatter That Matters. Thanks, Tony. Thanks for having me. Have a great day. Once again, a special thanks to RBC for supporting Chatham That Matters. It's Tony Chapman. Thanks for listening, and let's chat soon.