2 and a half years ago, my first grandchild was born. His name is Maxwell Jude. And my granddaughter Delilah, we were blessed with quite recently. And both of their life moments made me think about my moments, because I wanna see them grow into young adults and not sitting in some rocking chair, but with my own life having vitality, purpose, passion. And this desire has led me on a journey of how to age healthy. I'm exercising more, eating better, sleeping
better. I've stopped drinking alcohol. And I know I'm not the only one making the most out of life. This topic also touches upon many people out there who care for people that are aging. And in fact, it matters to all of us because the one thing that we have in common is we're all getting older. What are you going to do with that time? Think about it. You're living longer. Our challenge now is how do we get you to live longer and live better? How do you cash in that
longevity dividend? Today, I'm privileged to have doctor Joe Coughlin, founder and director of MIT AgeLab. Doctor Joe, as he's fondly known, is a pioneer in the field of aging. He challenged his conventional wisdom. He explores the intersection of global demographics, technology, and changing behaviors. His best selling book, The Longevity Economy, I consider a must read. Start thinking about a 100 year life. What does that mean? Old age is made
up. He's reshaping how we view aging longevity. He's named one of the 100 most creative in business by Fast Company, recognized as one of the 15 world minds, senior contributor to Forbes, writes for MarketWatch and The Wall Street Journal. Doctor Joe Coughlin has served on advisory boards for numerous global firms and appointed the White House advisory committee on aging. This is chatter that matters with Tony Chapman presented by RBC.
Doctor Joe Coughlin, welcome to Chatter That Matters. It's great to be here, Tony. Thank you so much for having me. I just fond over your resume, but then I saw a video of you this weekend. Coming on stage, you didn't look like an academic. I patter you more after, Mick Jagger. And and there's 35,000 people, and the stadium was rocking. Yep. Now how does that PhD from MIT hold an audience like that, and how
did it feel to be talking to that many people? I had the benefit of having many, many good professors that indeed were academics. I would even argue far better than I, but they were always able to mix, if you will, information, and and
entertainment education and entertainment together. Because if we all think about the teachers that we loved or professors that we that we really liked, They they made learning fun, and I think, you know, the way you you get a crowd rocking is that you've gotta deliver far more energy than they ever anticipated, and to show that you are even more interested in the topic than they could be.
But now that they see that energy, they should be. Now there's a fine line between sort of that level of engagement and making sure they walk away being enlightened. What are you hoping that they took away from your talk that they maybe shared over a dinner table or or on a social media post saying
something happened today that changed my life? Yeah. I think that one of the things I'd like people to take away from, particularly an audience of financial professionals and, frankly, the rest of us as well, is that longevity, not necessarily aging, but living longer, changes all your assumptions. It changes, what you think are appropriate life stages, the what and the where, in many cases, the when and how. And it really requires a whole new look at life. It's not just about living
longer. It's about a longevity dividend to be cashed in. So I really like people to walk away with a thinking that this this longevity thing or more to years in retirement is not a problem to be solved, but rather an opportunity, to be won and to be realized. I was listening to one of the podcast interviews you did, and it was framed up that I thought so beautifully in 5 words, old age is
old news. And is that really what you're after is to say to people, we can't turn back the clock, but we can do a lot more when those clock is ticking. When I mean old age is old news, I mean, it goes back to the whole story of what is old, which was given to us largely by British medical science adopted by North American and around the world where old age was equated with loss of what they called in the 1800, early 1900 even, the loss of vital force or vital
energy. And as I write my book, The Longevity Economy, the idea was, well, gee, if if you're no longer physically able to do certain things, then you probably can't work. And keep in mind, work in the late 1800, early 1900 was physical labor. And so if you had lost the energy to work, guess what? You had to pull back. You had to withdraw. We had to replace you like a
broken part, a cog in the wheel. Well, those stories have stuck with us almost like a Newtonian law of physics, that old age is equated with that lost energy, that lost vitality, that that that loss of vital force. And, you know, Tony, as as you know for because, you know, at heart, you're an amazing storyteller, and the people that you interview, stories have power. And the power of old age from that positioning in the 1800, 1900 that's still unfortunately with us today is that, gee, they
create vocabulary. So if you had to withdraw from work, you had to what? You had to retire. The whole idea of retiring is to pull back, to to sleep, to get rest. And by the way, words and stories don't just create narrative, They create institutions. So in the UK and in Canada and North America, if you didn't work and you didn't have family support you, there were no social programs in those days. You ended
up in alms homes. Guess what? Alms homes very quickly because of the age, concentration turned into what we all called rest homes to nursing homes. And as many of my family from upstate New York and Ontario, used to call them, funeral homes. So you see how there's a nice, neat, linear line as to what we think old age is. What I wanna suggest to you is that with technology, expectations, and and, frankly, the access to the things we have, that definition of
old age should be old news. Now do you think this is across humanity or do you think certain cultures have an ability to say it's time for you to go out to pasture? I look at our indigenous culture that revere their elder. We look at a lot of societies around the world where, you know, the life lessons are passed down from one generation to another. Is that universal or or what you're seeing is really the sense of, you know,
where capitalism put their hooks into a society? I think this is indeed in part capitalism, but globalization in general. Even those cultures that many of us in North America and in Europe in particular praise going, oh, why don't we celebrate our older people the way they do? Well, even in those countries, particularly in Asia and and the like, we're seeing profound change.
We did a study here years ago here at the AgeLab where we were interviewing 3 generations of people in Northern India, and people that were in my age, their age group, my age, fifties, sixties, were saying, well, you know something? Yes. We take care of our older adults. We will take care of them as part of our role. It's a it's our honor to do so. But then they would say very quietly, but our children won't be doing the same. You see, even indigenous people that that revere their elders,
again, their work was different as well. Work today is not as much physical labor, as it once was. I'm fascinated because my podcast is about human journeys and people overcoming circumstances to chase their dreams. And very often, when I see somebody shine the way you're shining and bringing this kind of thought leadership, something happened along the way that made you become completely fascinated in this subject that you
wanted to be part of shaping the narrative going forward. Is there anything from your background that led you to this, the fact that that healthy aging is something that matters most to you? Sometimes that shine is off my bald head, but we'll we'll take we'll take it in the meaning that you that you gave it. I I would say there's a couple things. 1, I'm an only child, and when I was 10, some of my best friends were what, I guess, I would call, old old guys in those days. They were in their
their late sixties, seventies, even eighties. And since my family's from upstate, New York and, on the other side of the lake in Ontario, I a lot of time up there with older guys around fishing and boat liveries and that ran machine shops and whatnot. They were vital even though they were, quote, retired. They had great stories. They were engaging. There was so much more that they had to give and did if you took the time to to sit, listen, engage, and and and
tell even a few bawdy jokes, if you will. But I I guess that was also complemented with something else that I frankly found to be what I call a stupid problem. We we we send people at a certain age out to pasture because we seem to think that at some particular birthday, almost like it's Newtonian law of physics, that you should be retired, and yet technology and related services have made it possible for people of all
ages to do things that you would have never imagined. And so suddenly you start looking at life expectancy and you realize that, gee, life expectancy in 1900 was a mere 46, 47 years old, and today it's easily 80 to the point where the fastest growing part of the population is 85
plus. There's got to be a way to take those old men that I grew up with and the technology available to us and the stories that we can tell to not turn that into a period where you're just waiting for the end, but waiting for it, but turning that into a time, a transformative time to give back, to do more, to do different. And frankly, it's not just about being selfish individually, Tony. You can't throw away effectively 1 third of the population's adult life and
say, okay, you're done. Sit on the sidelines. That's not healthy for them and it's certainly not healthy for society. You had this sort of mentorship of older people, lots of vitality, lots of energy, only child. But how does that translate into devoting so much time within both the academic field as both a student and a professor to say aging is something that I wanna do more
with? Keep in mind that as an academic, I am a social scientist, which is fancy talk for I get paid to watch, and and I like to watch, if you will. But I I think one of the issues is that as an academic, you like to find new uncharted territory. And god knows that the the study of aging, gerontology, and the like has been out there, for decades, if not centuries, if you will, and certainly has been written about in in the ancient books. But
this is new white space. We've never had this many people living this long with the endless possibilities of having con continuing impact in a lifetime. So from an academic standpoint, it's white space that frankly there's a lot of people should be participating in because we're writing a new narrative, not just watching and studying, but we're creating a new story for a new life stage that has yet to be written. So from an academic standpoint, it's it's it's entrepreneurial
drive. But from a personal standpoint, I find it to be a waste, and and frankly, it's it's almost like my own personal Social Security. You don't wanna reach a certain day, day and birthday where you look under your shoe and then you find that there's an expiration date there. I wanna ladder a little bit in now into the MIT age lab because Lianne Kauffman of RBC Royal Trust came back, and she said it was a life changing
experience being there and listening to you. And so talk to me about what the age lab is all about and where are you taking it? So the age lab began with my fascination, if you will, and it's an issue that's trapped somewhere between, shall we say, humor and horror. Older drivers. There are different age ranges, if you will. Some people say older drivers, by law are 50 years old. Some say it's 60, 75, 85. And so I didn't wanna know how old an older driver was because, frankly, between us, Tony,
birthdays do not kill. Health conditions do. So the age thing is somewhat spurious. What we wanna look at what I wanted to look at was, gee, given all this new technology, given the future of the autonomous vehicle, and the very importance, if you will, of mobility to everything we do, the wants, the needs, the excitement, the joy, before you do anything, you've gotta get there first, How can we imagine how new technology could make it possible to remain mobile longer, safer, and
seamlessly? And so I started the lab here at the Center For Transportation and Logistics around transportation. But here's something that came to be. In transportation, we speak of networks and connections and and infrastructure. And as I started to study aging even more, what we found was there's no infrastructure for old age, that we have to make it up as we go along. Our true Social Security is not a government program, but frankly other people. And so what I
and my team started to realize is, wow. Even if you have great transportation, where are you going to live? Where are you going to go? What are you going to do? So the age lab, to my knowledge, is still the first and only truly systems approach to longevity where we're saying, we don't wanna just make a smart house or a smart car, you know, with
all that gee whiz technology. We wanna be the face of the consumer, the older consumer and caregiver, to understand how do I navigate 100 good years by having a home that's a platform of services that can provide care and connectivity? Transportation, whether it's driving or subway or walking, Having endless work productivity opportunities. And, yes, to what Leanne was citing, the notion of not just planning for retirement and financial security, but longevity planning. What is my
purpose? What am I going to do? How will I continue to matter? Sidebar question because a big part of my listenership group is always looking for actionable ideas. I'm not gonna talk about aging right now, but just how did you manage to sort of shatter status quo, bring 3 very different disciplines together
working well to create this sort of higher purpose? Because very often, people get stuck in their silo, and when they stick their head up and try to invite other people to participate in the solution, it becomes whack a mole versus what you're creating. I I I wish I could tell you I had a genius plan and I could pick up a piece of paper and show you the diagram. I I think in many ways, it's because I've got an awesome
team of people. And and, frankly, looking at the same problem the same way is not only boring, but often leads to to the to the same ideas that have been tried, true, and failed, for decades, if not centuries. I also think in many ways, it's the secret sauce of MIT. You know? Real innovation is at the edge and at the edge of disciplines. It's rarely only in one, And that's why you start to see things like, there used to be biology, and there used to
be engineering. Now there's biological engineering. You see, it's the integration that drives innovation. I think it's refreshing when you say our institution is all about the fusion of different ideas and practices, that 1 plus 1 can, in fact, equal 5 versus the same old, same old. Is that a possibility that our governments can run that way as well where instead of saying that's treasury and that's defense and that's old age and that's state, that we we start thinking about multi solutions?
The challenge is that government is defined institutions, whether by the way, it's government or business or even nonprofits. Institutions are created based upon the problems that existed when they were created and largely the set of solutions that were available at the time they were created, and so they become a self perpetuating machine. So, you know, if you're running the highway department or transport Canada or or federal highway in the United
States. You know, if you ask federal highway, what's the solution to congestion? The answer is highway. Now what's your question going to be? And so having those integration points becomes profoundly difficult because the institutions are based upon old rules. How do we get them to integrate? That that's at that's at the political level. That that's where the politicians have to be
creative and not afraid to get out of their silos. But I'll pause for a second, and this becomes a cultural issue depending on the country that you're talking about, is remember, at least in the United States, to a degree in Canada and and parts of Europe, you don't want government to run too fast because sometimes when government runs very fast, remember, it's not always running in the direction that's desired or in a or we'll end up with a desirable
result. So many ways, these institutions are built in to be slow with circuit breakers to make sure, are you sure you wanna do that? That's probably one of the things that's stymieing a lot of that integration.
That said, it is a shame that aging and longevity is so fragmented across any government or provincial government, state government, and the like, because the one thing that we have in common with longevity is it's about our quality of life, which if you would think about it, should be the, you know, the optimal you know, the number one
goal of governance is to ensure the quality of life of its people. So I wanna talk about your TED Talk, which I loved, and and again, we go back to the energy you have, but the key takeaway I had is aging is not a disease. It's a design problem. We've been talking a little bit about that, but tell me what we need to think about as a society to design it so that it becomes an
opportunity versus a disease. One of the challenges that we're having now is that there's a whole new, and it is an industry, longevity industry, not just startups with gee whiz technologies, but also the on the biological side. You know? And people are saying that there's someone out there now that's gonna live to 150 or 600 or whatever numbers they're coming up with. That that biological science is outside of my my understanding in a wheelhouse.
My problem, however, is that we've got people living into 70, 80, 90, and certainly 100 now, and we have not even figured out how to have 75 or 80, let alone 90 or 100 good years. So I'll tell you what. If you can give me 100 good years and you think you can get me to 150, when I get to 100, we can renegotiate the contract. The design issue is the following. We have not created 2 things at least. 1 is the infrastructure of of aging,
of living a longer life. And what I mean by that is our housing, whatever they are, whether they're apartments, single family, detached, whatever, are not adequate to support people with bad knees, hips, or or maybe have breathing issues to be able to go up
and down stairs. We have communities that are based really well on having young kids go to school and middle aged people going to work, but do not provide the transportation or the access to not just the things that we need in old age, but the things that bring us joy, and we can talk about that in a moment. So we really need to design the infrastructure for what you know, my lab's mantra is 100 good years of life. And that brings me to the second side. I mean, longevity has a Janus face. We
got the the infrastructure needs. But there the other side is, Tony, we have no narrative. You get to 60, 65, there's no more story for you. And if you think about it from 0 to 21 years old, you're pretty much told what to do. Go to school. If you you have the opportunity, go to college. And then, you know, maybe find a job, find a partner, you know, buy a home or
rent, whatever it is. You know exactly what to do. You get to 65, there's only 2 bookends of imagery for you, either a walker in a wheelchair, or you're gonna be walking on a beach somewhere, or these days playing endless games of pickleball. The fact of the matter is those 2 bookends of longevity may not be altogether incorrect, but, my gosh, they're woefully
incomplete. So between the infrastructure and the chapters of longevity to be written, this is the new challenge, not just for families, not just for communities, but for society writ large. You've got 1 third of your adult life, and we've got no narrative and nowhere to do it. And how do you I mean, let's talk about longevity economy, a fascinating book. Was part of your motivation to to let people know that there's good
business in creating this infrastructure? Yeah. Because, look, the Asia Lab is entirely funded by industry, and in part, I made a conscious decision on that. 1, because of speed. I wanted to get things done. But, also, if you could create a market imperative, think about what what what what the marketplace does, you know, both on the positive and the negative side. It it it creates a consumer economy. It writes stories to make
you want to do x, y, or zed. What you really wanna think about is the longevity economy was a statement that I wanted to make that the Asia Lab and my colleagues wanted to make, which is that we could use market forces, not just social forces, and not just public policies to change this narrative of old age. You know, as I was saying to you before, that narrative was created in the 1800s, early 1900s, and yet a 100 years, 150 years later, we're still sticking to
it. So, yes, it was to show business their ignorance for not picking up this incredibly large market, not just fastest growing, but, frankly, that's where the money is. I mean, Tony, you probably picked up the 3rd largest economy in the world after the GDP of the United States and China is the 60 plus worldwide. And by the way, in North America, the 50 plus make up words of 60 to 68% of discretionary income, but only get 2 to 3% of the advertising
dollar. So as a result, basically, we we're invisible. At a certain point, we become invisible, and then business wants to know why we don't buy anything. Well, guess what? A, you're not talking to us, b, you're not making anything we want, and c, you haven't given me a storyline as to what
to do next. Now it's interesting you say that because I spent my entire life in advertising and branding, and I found that anytime people wanted to go after this age group, it was always showing them underneath an oak tree or, you know, with, you know, some type of pharmaceutical ad with 3 pages of side effects. Yeah. How do we turn aging into positivity and possibility versus where I see it very often as sort of negativity and and a
growing demonstration of impossibility. By the way, the other image I'll I'll throw out there is the constant, the ubiquitous photos of the same couple, the guy with a full head of hair, you can tell I have an issue there, with a full head of hair holding hands presumably with his wife walking down the beach. No one knows where these people came from and where they're going, but they're on every photograph you can imagine when it comes to retirement. So how do we get the how do we get people and
business and government to be excited about this opportunity? I think we need to start showing people doing. You know? We we have defined retirement largely as long deserved leisure, and that may be, in fact, true for many. In fact, by the way, I want people to understand when I talk about retirement being old news,
there are a good number of us who have to retire. I like to call those people the people who genuinely work for a living, the iron workers, the truck drivers, the people who build houses, people that are on their feet all day. But, Tony, you know, we'll keep it between you and I. You and I get paid by running off with the mouth and driving a keyboard. What is our excuse
for retiring? So one of the things I want people to start thinking about, we need to start creating imagery of maybe people volunteering with verve that's almost as if they were trying to look for a a promotion in the workplace, showing them changed careers, showing
them doing things that are new and different that we haven't expected before. In fact, the idea of going back to school, maybe at midlife or maybe towards retirement years, not just to, shall we say, learn something that your parents would have never paid for when you were young, but to learn something to start something new and different. Do you know that older women, or I would define painfully for me as over age 50, are among the top,
people starting new businesses? But you don't hear about that. And so what's what's happening, Tony, is that rather than government and business and nonprofits creating new narrative for us, we have a small group of us that are hacking longevity and trying to make it up as we go along. And I think that advertisers, corporations, and the like are leaving so much on the table, both in social capital and,
frankly, market capital. Another myth to shatter is the the sense of society goes, my grandfather can't, you know, can't program the remote. And you're coming out saying, no. This is a very technology and technical astute group of people, and stop thinking of them as being incompetent and capable and start realizing that. You know? Build it, and they will use it. Isn't it amazing? I want you to think about
this. As I cite my book, and it's been cited by others many time, I don't know how old Mark Zuckerberg is now at meta, but at the time, he said that, well, frankly, just people under 40 are simply smarter. I'm waiting for his 40th birthday to see if he feels that he's lost any IQ points. Or if It's like Mick Jagger saying who would ever wanna be a rock star at age 40? So I mean Yeah. There you go. This is just a regret. I'm I'm I'm gonna give everyone a lesson in human factors and
and technology design. Tony, do you know what you call technology that an older person does not want to use or can't figure out? I would need multiple choice, so I'll say no. Crap technology. You know, if you think about it, the tech world and and design world is the only industry in the world that says if you don't understand my product and you can't use my product, you're stupid. And so one of the things we've worked on here in the lab is, no, making something as accessible, easy, and usable
appeals to everyone. We never in this in the AgeLab, believe it or not, wanna design anything for older people because there's an adage in in both the design world as well as in in marketing world, which is you can't make an old man's car. Why is that? Because a young man and an old woman won't buy it. But guess what? A old man and an old woman will run away, with her hair on fire away from it. So the notion about grandpa not being able to use the technology, it depends on the
technology. Do you know that the tablet or particularly the the Apple iPad is one of the most sought after devices, if you will, by the so called older population? Why? Because it's profoundly intuitive. It's easy to use. These remote controls that we have on our TVs or satellite dishes that have upwards of a 100 buttons and 3 different flavors of colors, half the time you need a YouTube and a 12 year old to help you understand how to use it. That's
crap technology. It's not about age. It's interesting. Steve Jobs was so ahead of his time. I I don't know if you know the story about the iPad, but he was so frustrated. The engineers tried to keep doing what Sony Walkman was doing, putting mixer boards and, you know, all these things on this device. And he said, no. I I don't want any of that. People hate technology. And he said, my daughter can do this, and he drew a rectangle in a circle. He drew a rectangle in a circle on
a flip chart. He said, make me that, and they they were shocked. And then he came back and said, this is not to do about technology. It's about putting a 1,000 songs in somebody's pocket. Yeah. Technology is fundamentally about enabling people to be able to do what they want, but great technology or great service design, great anything in the marketplace is not about simply, responding to consumer needs or wants
that any idiot can do that. It's about exciting and delighting. And so what Jobs was able to do was to, gee, I never knew I needed that, but now that it's in my pocket, I don't know how I lived without it. I want to talk about a Forbes article. I by the way, I've become a junkie in everything you're doing, and I really like the way you frame these memes, like, you know, volunteering with Verve. You just have these these statements that I go, wow, you just compressed a pursuit into
3 words. Words matter. Before there can be dreams, before there can be innovation, before there can be design, there has to be the words and the imagination to make make it happen. And you talked about test driving retirement. So talk to me about what that means for my listeners in terms of test driving something so that you feel confident that when it comes, you're happy. Do you realize that, every large purchase you've ever made, you probably
took it for a test drive? So whether it will start from the top down, whether it's your home, you probably didn't buy it, you know, basically, on on a few images. You probably went and visited. You may have circled the neighborhood a little bit. Maybe you you went inside, and the realtor, if they were smart, had chocolate chip cookies in the oven to give you that home cooked smell. Essentially, you did a walk through. When you went to buy a car, chances are you took
it for a test drive to say, yeah. I like the feel of this. When you buy an outfit, most of us, especially if it's expensive outfit, you try it on before you say, yep. This is what I want. Even kids who go to college go to endless tours to see whether they like the cafeteria food in the dormitories. And, yeah, there's a few few classes along the way. But do you know that retirement is probably the biggest thing you will ever buy? You've never tasted it. You've
never tried it on. You've never done a walkthrough, and you've never taken it for a test drive. And so what the article I wrote in Forbes about taking retirement for a test drive was saying, you know something? All those people who don't save for retirement and, don't do all the discipline that their financial advisors and employee, plans and pension funds tell them to do, they're instead of saying, that it's because they don't understand what retirement is going to be, we call them
financially illiterate or retirement illiterate. No. Actually, they're really smart because you're telling me to put all this money aside for a future person, a future self, even though it's me, that I have no idea who that person is and what I'm going to do. And so what I suggest to the people is, like, okay. If you want to age in place, fine. Take a test drive. And and by the way, COVID
was probably the best fire drill for retirement for many of us. It's sad to say that because although most of us will say we want to travel in older age, okay, fine. We couldn't travel during COVID, but guess what we found out during COVID and pandemic lockdown? We found out a couple of things. 1, all those hobbies you thought that were gonna keep you occupied forever, didn't. You found that you could only paint the spare bedroom 2 or
3 times before you got bored. And, by the way, your significant other got tired of seeing you significantly 24 hours, 7 days a week. And so maybe staying home a little bit to try that aging in place, or or if you have a place in Florida or, you know, one of the traditional retirement zones, maybe another way would be to, if you can, rent a house. Maybe for a week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks. If you got it, if you can do it, do it for a longer period, but
don't do it during the vacation season. In fact, don't go to the cafes as much. Don't go walking on the beach as much. Live there. In other words, have the boredom of going to the grocery store, finding a doctor, all those other things. So, Tony, the idea of a retirement test drive is start to understand what you're buying. See if you really like it. Have you connected with volunteer organizations, or you're gonna, oh, I'm gonna find a gig. Well, fine. Have you found a gig 3, 4, or 5
years before you ended your for formal work life? If not, you don't wanna retire on Friday at 5 o'clock on Monday morning going, okay. Now what? Well, after about a year of Viking cruises and and, and and norovirus on large cruise ships, pretty much you're probably going to wanna, you know, do something else. You need to find out early. Why is it that we know this stuff is so important, but we never make it urgent? Well, you know, I I'm not entirely sure that people are that aware. You know,
before there's action, there has to be attention. And and all of us, and this is not an indictment, it's just the nature of life, are so caught up in the now and so busy and the like that it's hard to imagine 10, 20, 30 years away when you're probably thinking to yourself, I don't even know where my kids are in the next 10 to 20, 30 minutes. So in part, it's that, but I'm gonna go back and, frankly, I'm gonna blame public policy and business and social narrative.
People will follow the bouncing ball if we give them a a a line and a story to follow. We don't have people having much hard, difficulty in saying, well, maybe I should find a spouse or a partner, or, maybe I should start prepping myself for college admissions. They seem to do that naturally. Why? Because there's institutions and people and story. We don't have people, institutions, and story
for retirement. Yeah. We have it about saving money. But even if you have the money and even if you have a place to live, if you don't have all those things that excite and delight, you know, frankly, you can have financial security, 3 square meals a day, and 247 health care. You know what you can call that? Prison. Because without all the other things, that's not quality of life. And you spend a lot of time talking about the importance of women in shaping the future of aging.
You cited earlier that the, you know, the largest cohort of of entrepreneurs are women 50 plus. Talk to me about what you're learning and why does it matter. So, yes. I got it right. I think it's chapter 3. The the future is female, if you will. And my wife and 2 daughters, you know, they often accuse me of doing the science of the obvious. But, you know, think about this. You know, we we we often think about men as, quote, being the breadwinner, and that's becoming less and
less common. But the thing is is that women overwhelmingly worldwide, across cultures, are the chief consumer officers of the house. They make the majority of decisions when it comes to home improvement. They overwhelmingly make the majority of decisions when it comes to health care. Who's the doctor? What's the
medication? Where are we gonna go? How you know, what what doctor mom dictates when you are sick and when it's time to go to the hospital and whatever it might be, And and they also make all kinds of decisions around finance and buying cars and and the like. And but here's the thing. Women also live longer. They are also more likely, despite what young men might think, to be the number one carrier. After your spouse or after your partner, the oldest
adult daughter is the most likely to be a caregiver. In fact, here at the age lab, we have a a global panel of caregivers trying to understand what people do to provide care for loved ones. So she lives longer, she makes the majority of consumer decisions, and she's providing care. She is the linchpin, indeed, the catalyst for how longevity is gonna play out in the future.
You'll wanna stick around for what's next. Doctor Joe and I unpack the future of the home, and more importantly, how today's younger generation is feeling with all this chatter about an aging world. And last but not least, Leanne Kauffman talks about why RBC is putting such an investment on understanding longevity and the deep connection between health and wealth. Hi. This is Tony Chapman. I wanna talk to you about what RBC Wealth Management
is doing to support healthy aging. Old age is becoming old news. We're living longer, and planning for our future means we need to integrate health, wellness, and our financial matters. RBC Wealth Management is partnering with leading experts and organizations like the MIT Age Lab, the National Institute on Aging, the Women's Brain Health Initiative, Elder Caring, and the Women's AgeLab. Why? To provide you with comprehensive resources covering
every aspect of you aging well. This includes support for your physical and mental health, caregiving, maintaining financial stability, and preparing for later life health issues, ensuring you can age safely and comfortably and ideally in your own home. With RBC Wealth Management, you create a personalized plan that adapts as your needs change, giving you peace of mind and security. Visit rbcwealthmanagement.com, and learn more about healthy aging, and start planning for your
future. Healthy aging? Well, that matters to you, to me, and to RBC. The new generation gap is not about age. It is not about money and education. It is about expectations. We believe there's a pill, a product, or a policy that is going to enable us to live longer and better. And I don't care what you may think. None of us in this room are nearly as patient nor as polite as our parents. We're going to demand it. You're listening to Chatter That Matters with Tony Chapman presented by RBC.
Today, I'm joined by doctor Joe Coughlin, founder and director of the MIT AgeLab, a platform studying aging and its impact on society. He's also the author of Longevity Economy, unlocking the world's fastest growing, most misunderstood market.
You know, given all your learning about caregiving, what work are you doing to take some of that responsibility away so that individuals combining technology, combining the kind of engineering work that you're doing, will be better capable of being, having their destiny a matter of their choice versus leaving it to the chance of others? Well, there's there's actually, 2 things that is kind of my pet projects or at least my team's pet projects, if you will. I get the joy of
talking about them. They get to do the creative and and fun work, if you will. The first one is reimagining the home. Wherever you live, I want you to imagine the home as a platform of services rather than simply a place to live. You know, we call that c three logistics, and the c's are the following. In young age or a younger age, you want a home that's about connectivity,
and the idea of connecting to others and services that you need. In the middle ages, when you're you've got everything coming at you, work, children, the kids are no longer as cute as they used to be, now they're teenagers, You want them to be, you want a home that provides services that are for convenience, but, ultimately, you also want a
home that's gonna be that third level, which is providing care. Imagine a home that's gonna be able to not just know that you've fallen and you can't get up, but a home that has noticed that you're not eating as well as you used to, that the way you walk, your gait has changed, and you're likely to fall because once you're down on the floor, there's all kinds of other issues. A home that's proactive and engaging, that that will help her as the primary caregiver because often
she's living at a distance or she's very busy and and the like. So that that that's one area that's a combination of technology, design, and and and service innovation. But the second area that's my little pet project these days, what's her second retirement? Ask think about this. The average woman marries a
man that's 3 to 4 years older than she is. She lives anywhere from 6 to 8 years longer than he does, generally speaking, the a woman is likely to live in that period called retirement for nearly a decade or a decade plus by herself. In fact, in North America, Europe, and many other parts around the world, the fastest growing household out there are people are households of 1. And, by the way, they're primarily older women living solo. So how does she prepare for that
financially? Who's she gonna have come into the home to do all those big and little things that they used to do as a couple? Who's that trusted face that's gonna cross her threshold when she's 85 and maybe not physically or even cognitively as sharp as she once was that
you're gonna trust to come in to change her light bulbs? How do we give a whole new retirement plan for her that may have been created by them together, live together you know, live through short in a short period together, but then ultimately inherited by her? So the idea of creating a second retirement is about coming up with a vision that fits her as well. So between technology services and really putting her on the front and center agenda, we're hoping to change how women live, age, and
care. And as you look back at the work that you're doing, and we're gonna end with where you're going next, is there anything that you've that really has surprised you? This is the one opportunity. Notice I didn't say problem or challenge. The one global opportunity that with any luck, all of us get to enjoy. That is creating quality of life for that latter period of life or that latter third of of adulthood overall. So the things that have surprised me is how long it's taken for government
and business to get on board. Government's always looked at it as this is about serving the poor and serving the disabled. Very laudable, honorable, appropriate goals. But this is something that affects everyone who's not necessarily poor, not necessarily disabled in life. So we should have greater policy innovation around how we prepare. Notice I didn't even say plan. How we prepare for older age. Business should get on board because, frankly,
that's where the money is, so there's a market imperative. But secondly, the fastest growing part of the population worldwide is 85 plus. Generally speaking, around the world, we've stopped having children, so we better go where the market is and where the bodies are as well. So it it boggles my mind how slow this has taken. But it's coming along, but it's it's kinda clumsy. It's almost like a car
that kinda stops and starts stops and starts. So, you know, we we see those technologies come out that have got buttons the size of your head, and they think that anyone wants to to to have this in their pocket or on their on their nightstand. I mean, keep in mind, technology and and products, they're not just about what they do for us. They're what they say about us. Do you want a device that says, hey. I'm an old man about to fall
down. Nobody wants that. You see others that are doing more around medication and health, and that that's great. But, again, I don't I appreciate the ability to get me to live longer, but get me to live longer better, I think, should be the high high order goal. And then 3rd, something we spoke about earlier, this is not a medical issue. This is not just an engineering issue. It's not just a gerontology
issue. It's a life issue. So that means everybody of every discipline and every market and policymaker should be involved and say, how how do we create this new frontier? We invented adolescence. We invented childhood. It's time to invent what this period of lighter life is going to be, and we we have a lot to do. Are you looking at all you mentioned earlier when we're talking about some societies, you know, really revere their elderly. You said, yeah, but the younger generation's not
necessarily stepping up. What about the pushback the younger generation's going, you're gonna take so many of the resources I need for education and health care and my life and devote it to keeping these people living longer? We're already seeing some blowback
where, why are you staying in your house when I need a house? Is there anything that you're looking at from that point of view that creates a narrative so that younger people know that this is a problem or an opportunity for all versus isolated to the people that have always controlled the ballot box? Tony, I I guess the only thing I would say is that it's shortsighted on both older
people's part and younger people. Older people, we need to start socializing us at a young age to prepare for 100 good years, not to assume that family was going to be there. We did a study here in the age lab, if you will, that showed that the majority of people that we surveyed, at least in the United States, believe that their spouse or their adult children would care for them. The next question is, did you have the conversation to tell your spouse or your adult children that
you're expecting them? The vast majority, no. I just expected that, which was kind of a a little bit of a shock. But here's the the part that I would give younger people a little bit of a hard time with. We have to invent a society that supports us across the lifespan. Those resources that you claim those people are taking, guess what? With any luck, you will be those people. You will be in those roles. You will be on those tax, roles. You will be
getting those benefits. So be careful because those people, they are us. Every time I listen to you and read you, I see someone that has passion. I see you looking. There's a 1,000 doors I could open tomorrow and go down because this is such an opportunity. How do you prioritize knowing that even if you live to a 150 years old, you've got a finite amount of time and
infinite possibilities? How do you prioritize as an individual, and how do you prioritize the people that you help champion so that you really go after the things that matter? I wish I could give you a formula and say, woah. It's quite clear. I mean, the answer is it's not quite clear. What we've been doing here at the lab is and and we've now been here for this is our 25th anniversary, if you will, of of the age
lab. And what we try to do is to try to touch those systems and and and technologies, if you will, that we believe are most likely to have a near term impact on the quality of life of caregivers and and and older adults, if you will. So transportation was a a a clear hit. It's always on the top of everyone's agenda. It's something we need. We all live in a home of some sort, the future of work that needs to be changed. So in part, it's it's proximity. What's gonna have the
impact in the near term? And, you know, the the lab is entirely funded by outside funding, so it's also a matter of where is the funding to be able to get something done, and we wanna do great academic research. We wanna change, you know, the the thinking in the area, but we also wanna see our work not just in the laboratory, but I want it in your living room as well. And so how do we work on things that can get out
there presumably in my lifetime? That's why, in fact, Tony, you know, my my most recent book that's coming out later this year with my friend, Lucio Quinto, here in the lab, it's called longevity hubs. And what we've done is a study with others of are there regions around the world, whether it's Boston, Toronto, Sao Paulo, Thailand, that are creating hubs of innovation in business and government and the like to imagine how do we rethink longevity? Where is that innovation going to
happen? We're hoping that, you know, the next thing we're trying to do here at the lab is to start a global movement, if you will, of what longevity innovation can be rather than trying to do it one step at a time. One of the connective tissues through this entire interview is your passion for words. Earlier, you referenced the fact that people struggle having important conversations with people
that they love. And I just did a study with RBC on life and money matters, and even young couples struggle to talk about money matters. They just there there's an awkwardness there. I I don't know how to bring
it up. Is there anything you're doing to encourage people to have those conversations so that they know that their children will be in the corner when they need need them to be or that the money that they're putting aside for retirement is gonna go for their longevity versus necessarily, you know, a gift to the children. I'll I'll give you a 2 part response, Tony, is, 1, we just finished literally a month ago a study on
the words people use to describe life after work. Notice I didn't use the r word retirement because then you get all visions of pickleball and beach walks. And we asked them, can you give us just 5 words to describe what you think life after work is going to be? And keep in mind, the average, at least in the United States, the average American has a vocabulary of somewhere between 3,235,000
words. So if you ask them what they're gonna be doing in life after work or retirement, 1 third of their adult life, and you only ask them 5 words, should be a shoo in, should be really easy. Do you know that 10 words explained 1 third of the responses and more and and I think it was 40 words? Only 40 represented more than 60% of the responses? So there's 2 ways we can look at that. People have great clarity on how they think they're gonna live in older age or, you know, I live in Boston, so
I'm gonna say this with a Boston vernacular, they don't have a freaking clue. I think it's more the latter than anything else. The discussions about care and retirement and whatnot, sadly, a lot of people think
this is a one and done conversation. It should be a conversation between couples and their adult children and, frankly, even their best friends, if you will, that start early about everything, not just the money issue, but things about where I'm going to live, how do I want to live, who would I want to provide care with, what expectations. And these are not just a series of conversations
that are done in small bites. They have to be recurring because family dynamics change, health conditions change, financial conditions change. So this is part of a larger longevity discussion about longevity preparedness, not having a financial plan that's won and done and put it away, but an ongoing conversation to meet the ongoing changes that all of us face. Any final thoughts? We forget that, you know, you can't have an endless time of walking, walking the beach and playing golf whatnot
and think that that's gonna be your entire old age. We traditionally think that older age is a short period of doing a lot of leisure activity and then maybe a shorter period of poor health and then you're done. But in fact, it's 1 third of your adult life. And and and, Tony, let me demonstrate it to you with some very simple math that you and your listeners will
get a kick out of perhaps. From 0 to 21, from birth to 21 years old, or as we like to say here, drinking age if you will, is about 8 1000 days. And from 21 to what many might call midlife crisis, 46 years old, 47 years old, believe it or not, it's about 8,000 days. And you once you're probably starting to get the algorithm now, but from 46 to 47 to 65, that near Newtonian law of physics of retirement is
8,000 days. But here's the thing, across North America, Europe, Asia, and many other parts of the world, including Australia and the and the like, the fastest growing part of the population is 85 plus. And guess what? 65 to 85 and change is 8 1000 days. So if I take 0 to 21, we'll call that childhood, and we'll gently push that off to the side, you're no longer planning for this this thing
called retirement that's a short walk on the beach. No. You're planning for 1 third of your adult life with as many challenges and opportunities and changes, if not more, than you had in those other thirds. You know, Doctor. Joe, I always end my podcast and my 3 takeaways, and the first one that I think is, universal. One of the great lessons I've learned is before action and intention, you need to have words. Words matter. Words that animate and
create this magnetism that everybody wants to be part of. And I love how you use words like volunteer with verb, willfully incomplete, test drive retirement because, to me, it creates an itch. It makes me wanna explore and learn more. I think that's wonderful. The second one that I I really enjoyed, this concept of test drive retirement, the fact that we test drive anything major in our life, but somehow or other, we just meander and wander into
retirement. And sometimes it's not even in our control. We just suddenly realize that we've been let go and we have no plan B. And I think it's really important. And I love what you said about COVID. In many cases, that was a fire drill. And we really opened our eyes to the fact that a lot of things that we fantasized about once we experienced it wasn't right.
So I think it's really important. And the final one is just a sense of what is is what was and the sense of status quo is just really because how we've approached things and how we've been so focused within our silo that if, you know, traffic congestion is the issue and you go to the highways it'll say build
more highways. I just think that these three insights all ladder into what I adore because I can imagine that young kid hanging out with these 60 year olds, seeing their energy, their vitality, their storytelling, people listening to each other, laughing, engaged, feeling purposeful, enjoying their day and enjoying their moment. And then as you started moving through life realizing that that was internally grateful, and I know that anybody else, or frankly,
everybody else, because we're all aging, should be thinking the same. So thank you for joining me in Chatter That Matters. Thank you so much, Tony. It's been a delight. So if you're a fan of the show, you know that my go to person for things that involve health and money matters and just dotting the i's and crossing the t's is Lianne Kauffman,
who's a president and CEO of Royal Trust. Lianne, on your adventures, you're going to some of these amazing conferences and this case, MIT's aging lab to really understand this journey we're on through life and how prevention truly is the best medicine. And I'd love because I just had doctor Joseph Coughlin on the show. What did you experience when you're at his lab, and what would you encourage people to do with some of the insights and intelligence that he's bringing
to, our life? I think doctor Joe's superpower is helping bring awareness to some of these both issues and changes, advancements, I would say. Because he's helping us all better understand what aging will look like, but also could look like, and and how to plan for that, as the
underlying current. So, you know, there's fascinating stuff happening on the technological front to support people as we age or the money side of things, you know, thinking differently about retirement, thinking about purpose in retirement, and how are we keeping our our our mental selves, feeling active and fulfilled and avoiding loneliness. There's it's there's a lot of layers of complexity to the work that that doctor Joe and his team at MIT are doing, but it's it's also valuable to us as
Canadians and to our clients at RBC. You know, Lianne, a lot of what you're talking about is common sense. A lot of what doctor Joe's talking about is common sense in terms of life and money matters. And most of us know they're important, but we don't seem to make them urgent. What do you think we should be doing so people prioritize this and say, this has to be part of my day to day versus something I put off from
many days away? I think just talking about it and putting it out there, making it commonplace and demystifying some of it, making you know, when we talk about money and we talk about late life, those are sometimes taboo topics, so let's let's take away the stigma from talking about them. You know, people weren't used to wearing seat belts, and who gets in a car and doesn't automatically put on a seat belt now? Do you think that's a role for an adviser to help people
have these conversations? Because all the data that I'm reading when it comes to money matters is that people know we need to have these conversations within our family, with our partner, but we often avoid them because they're awkward. Is that something we should be thinking about maybe facilitating some of these conversations or providing some tools where people can break the ice and really get
underneath beneath the surface and talk through this stuff? Yeah. It's certainly something we're focused on, at RBC because we can see how we can add value to that conversation. So it's not something traditionally that that your financial institution or your investment, adviser would would be talking to you about, but it is inextricably linked with wealth. And it's about goals and how you're going to live and and the things that matter to you. And so
it needs to be part of a broad holistic conversation. Lianne Kauffman, always a pleasure to have you on the show. Keep sending guests my way because each and every time we seem to do do, some wonderful numbers, and and I just absolutely learned so much from doctor Joe. So thank you again for, thinking of Chatter That Matters and finding the time to join me on the show. It's always a pleasure, Tony. Thanks. Chatter That Matters has been a presentation of RBC. It's Tony
Chapman. Thanks for listening. Let's chat soon.