Ideas have always been my superpower. When I've needed to make a move, to reinvent, resolve a problem, recharge a client relationship, or turn failure that an opportunity, Ideas are what allows me to help a friend in need, or offer advice to a business owner. And even within family time, ideas can turn a
few hours of downtime into an adventure. I remember when my daughter was young, probably no more than 3, and early Saturday morning, I set up a toy store or bookstore in that den versus watching cartoons. We'd make signs and figure out the best place to merchandise the best sellers and to move the impulse items. Ideas are the currency of life, and whether big or small, baked in absurdity or reality, they're the stimulus for collaboration,
amplification, and conversation. Over time, the ideas I've learned to cherish are the ones steeped in positivity and possibility, and driven by people with resourcefulness, resolve, and imagination. People who can walk the high wire between dreaming and doing, and desirability and feasibility. I guess that's why I love entrepreneurs so much. I'm often approached by people who want to share their ideas with me. I guess that honor comes with my age, my
former profession, and possibly my reputation. And each time I'm asked, I'm always flattered. And whenever I can make the time to listen generously, I do. I know that some really are just looking for validation, and that's okay. And there's others that want to really dive into their idea. Is it worthy? Is it sound? Can it be improved? Can I even offer help or get involved? And
that's where this show came about. Michelle Smythe, who worked with me for years, asked me if I would spend time with 2 individuals to learn about their business. Now as you listen to their story, I want you to ask yourself, is your idea one whose time is due? And do these 2 entrepreneurs deserve your due? And there's a twist. These 2 individuals are not only business Matters, but like partners. And does their backstory include lessons in life that will help them?
You will soon learn that they're both immigrants from a home country in Ireland. They come from different backgrounds, but they have a common soul. Both are protectors and defenders of people. And as their story unfolds, ask yourself the same questions I ask when evaluating the merits of an idea. Or picture yourself in one of those chairs featured on television show like Dragon's Den OR Shark Tank. Ask yourself, how committed are they to their idea? Is this commitment their
binding superpower overcoming any circumstances? Or is it their blinding weaknesses and refuse to see or acknowledge anything else but their own vision? Is their idea based on an unmet need, or is this ground that's already well covered in our economy? Do they as individuals have what it takes to nurture their idea and grow it into a business? And in this partnership, who has influence and who has authority? And is this across the board, or do their respective
strengths match up to different parts of the organization? And can that convince all who Matters, customers, employees, investors, influences, suppliers, that they have a better mousetrap. This is Chatter That Matters that Tony Chapman presented by RBC. My guests today are Grace Town and Joe O'Connor. They cofounded Work Time Reduction. As a sharer idea, I have to say it's been around since the beginning of time, but more often
than not, a fantasy. That is for a shorter work week, or in some cases, the same amount of hours reframed as the 4 day work week. Everyone seems to be talking about the 4 day work week, especially since the pandemic. Does that tell you that what we've been doing in sort of office culture for decades is wrong? You don't need to work that many days. You can get the same amount of output out of people in 4 days as
you could in 5. We also know that in most office based professions, professions, we are currently wasting between 2 to 3 hours a day on overlong and unnecessary meetings, distractions and interruptions in the workday, and poor use of technology. Gryce and Joe, welcome to Chatter That Matters. Thanks for having us. Good to join you. So in my opening, I talked about
my love for ideas. And so share the concept behind work time reduction and why you feel your premise is something you can build a business on. The concept is very much driven around the idea that there is not a direct correlation between hours worked and productive output. If you look internationally, some of the most productive, most competitive countries in the world, from the Netherlands to Denmark, work some
of the fewest hours. And I was initially inspired by this idea when doing some work in Ireland looking at working parents within the public service who are already working reduced hour work weeks for a reduction in salary, but often were producing as much, if not more, than when they were working 5 day weeks. So I think that raises the question that I would encourage every CEO to ask themselves, how much of my employees' work week is
currently focused productive activity? And is there an opportunity to incentivize change and to actually improve our productivity by offering something as transformative and ambitious as a shorter work week? And I'm going to push back at you throughout this because I want you to defend your idea. The whole premise of the show is how entrepreneurs, when they really believe in something and go after something, that means they have to overcome obstacles. So I got to play devil's
advocate. So in COVID, everybody was forced to work from home. In the beginning, all we talked about was this incredible productivity gain and how people were like just because they didn't have to deal with all the inconvenience of commuting because they were given freedom. But over time, as COVID opened up opportunities to spend my day doing other things, I'm not sure that productivity
continued. And so I guess my question to you is, is an isolated study where you say, listen, we can get those kind of productivity gains, but over time, when people start getting accustomed, for example, to a 4 day work week, isn't it possible that the same way they might have squandered time during the 5 day week, they're gonna start bringing it into the 4 day week? It's
possible. And I think you're asking the right question. You know, if you look at the transition to remote, that was done in a very unstructured, unplanned way for many organizations. And you saw this initial individual level productivity gain as people weren't commuting, as people were kinda doing much more heads down focus work. But over time, many organizations were unable to retain the productivity
boost from collaborative innovation, from creativity. So when we talk about the shorter work week, nobody that I know of is arguing that if you reduce your employees' hours, you get this automatic productivity boost. This needs to be very clearly defined as that is not a perk. This is not a giveaway. This is an incentive, which is very clearly linked to collective performance accountability, efficiency, and continuous
improvement. And if you structure it in that way and on those terms, then what we've seen throughout the trials, which have been studied, you know, not just within the initial 6 month Three, but a year down the road, these organizations have been able to sustain these gains. But I would agree with you. It's not automatic, and it needs to be
focused on productivity. So for the listeners, you're going to see why you're going to enjoy this show because Joe is without question, one of the thought leaders in this space globally. He's been cited in major magazines. So I'm looking forward to continue
to dive deeper in this business. But Grace, I got to ask you a question and that is almost as when I started reading science fiction and they, you know, they used dates then, you know, this century, and it would seem so far away back that, but, you know, they talked about things like flying cars and longevity, but the other one was always a shorter
work week. And given that that was baked in our realm of fantasy for so long, do you find it's difficult to bring this to the marketplace as something new and worth considering versus something I've been hearing about forever, but never seemed to take hold? Does that make sense? Yeah. Well, firstly, I'm still waiting for the hoverboard from Back to the Future, which I still haven't got. But, yeah, absolutely. But it's within our grasp and our control to make
this happen as a society. We have the tools and technology to to work shorter work of weeks, but we don't seem to have done that yet. So the more people who are doing it, the more people who are trying it, this can Chapman, and we've seen how transformative it is for employers and employees. So this isn't just an incentive that, you know, you're giving back to your employees. Happy employees make for a better
business. If your people are happy, your business is thriving. And but but just honing in on your point, those things happen because people who run big organizations decide that they're gonna make that Chatter, and you're forcing other people to do that because they're losing talent to the organization who is giving those benefits to their employees. So I suppose it's up to us. Do we want to see
this change? Do we wanna be that change? So when you talk about up to us, one of the things I wanna bring to the listeners is that when you're looking at entrepreneurs and their dreams, it's also very important to look at the back Tony. Like, where did this north star come from and where does that sense of these beliefs and these truths?
So I'd love to, if I can, wind it back in time. And Grace, when I was doing some research in our pre interviews and such, what I was quite amazed about was that, I mean, you're the youngest of 5 kids. I think there's a 10 year separation, so it sounds like you weren't necessarily a planned child, but you came along with extraordinary
music talent. So talk to me a little bit about how that unfolded, where you were, I don't know if protege is too much of an exaggeration, but you're extremely talented and could Three much have had a career in the arts. Well, Tony, I wouldn't say protege, but it certainly was something that I was good at. But the thing is, I was given the opportunity to develop that skill. So you need to learn music. And, of course, there's lots of people who are
self taught and they're absolutely incredible musicians. But few of them would say that they wish they never learned to to read music. You know, it's a it's a universal language that I deeply believe that everybody should have the opportunity to learn. I I knew it was something I was good at. And don't we all feel great when we're good at something? You know, it it it helps you in so many other areas of your life. So I was privileged that learn
music. I'm so delighted that it it's something I'm good at. It's still such a huge part of my life. And what you learn from learning music to that standard, so learning classical music is something that spills over into everything else you do. I use that I use those skills every single day of my life, you know, in particular now helping people to practice their new habits. You don't just suddenly move to a Chatter working week and, you know, you've you've gotten rid of all those habits
of working late. You've got to practice them the same way as I had to practice the violin. Every day you've got to go back and say, you know, how did I do today? And I need to practice better habits tomorrow to improve, you know, how how I did yesterday or how I did last week. People like Kevin O'Leary are so outspoken about a waste of time in liberal arts. And I disagree. I think some of the that greatest critical thinking
comes philosophy and psychology and music. What advice can you give to parents instead of short circuiting and trying to, you know, wire your kids for this world sprint that sometimes the simplicity of just even learning skills and practice is something you can carry the rest of your life. Yeah. 100%. I I completely agree with that. And I think, you know, we we we put so much emphasis on, subjects like math and
and absolutely that are are are really valuable and really important. But I think the more we move towards AI and advancing technology, ideas, creativity become really important for business, and you want your people to have been given the opportunity to explore that. And I think, you know, I believe certainly the way we have educated, I think things are changing, but education, in
my opinion, can often squash creativity. You know, those who think outside the box are, you know, your mistakes are a a mistake, Where if you don't make a mistake, you don't learn, you don't have ideas. You know, not every idea is gonna be the right one, but you've got to be given the space to do that. I think that's the wonderful thing about the arts, about dance, about music, about, you know, you're you're you're afforded that opportunity to make mistakes, to learn, to grow,
to develop. The other thing that I sensed when you were talking about the sacrifices that your parents made for you to pursue your dreams, It's also come with some guilt. And do you think that guilt you've turned to your advantage in the sense of, you know, the appreciation that you have for your parents in terms of how you wanna give back, or is that just something you deal with in terms of the the circumstances of your childhood being the youngest and maybe getting a
little bit more than the others? No. I think that's exactly how I would put it, Tony, is that I have used it to my advantage. From a very young age, I was aware that I was lucky to have music lessons, which I think even saying that seems just so unfair
and unequal. I as you said, I was the youngest of 5 and my parents just weren't in a financial position to put in financially what it takes to go the long distance with music and to have lessons for a very, very long time and they're really costly. Both my parents also had to work hard to to build the life that they did. So I was aware aware of that, but I was also aware when I joined orchestras that there was a certain caliber of people that were in those orchestras.
They came from certain Three, and that struck me. For and as I said, from a young age, that was something that I I was aware of and I thought, you know, if there is an opportunity for me to do something to change this, it's definitely something I I I wanna be involved in. Did you ever feel within that orchestra? Because I imagine there's people coming in with the brand new instruments and being driven up in the
shiny suit cars. Do you did you ever feel that there was even within that circular economy, there was have and have nots and people were treated differently based on their wealth or their privilege? Yeah. And even, you know, I have been trying to drive different campaigns around access to music education. And sometimes my biggest barrier is that often the people who are in my circle, don't necessarily think about the other people who don't have
it. It's so far removed from their thinking, their brand, pull the ladder up, I'm alright, Jack, and and they don't look outside. So that actually applies to what we're doing now as well. But people may not think it's affecting their day to day life, but when you're looking at changing changing things like working time, you've got to think of the next generation and your children and and what society you're trying to build. And Joe O'Connor, we talked to I teased it a little bit earlier
about your thought leadership in this space, and we're gonna get into that. But your childhood, I've laughed out loud with your sort of sense of humor when you talked about you loved reading and writing, but up until university, you were a bit of a nerd. And when I look at your videos and how confident you are and how gregarious and how in controlling in command you are when you're talking to people. The first question I have because I love to read and write as a kid
as well. What did you read? When I think about that period in my life, I definitely think about Enid Blyton and that Famous 5, Three Secret 7. These were things that I was acting out in my head and in our garden, Roald Dahl. So I I was a big fiction reader. How about Narnia series? I had you penned for CS Lewis and that Narnia Chronicles. Yeah. Yeah. Well, definitely, that came across the the the desk at one point too. So, yeah. I I grew up on
fiction. I got away from it for large parts of my life. And I'm I'm pleased to say that I've managed to rediscover that in recent years because, yeah, there was there was a transition, I think, when I got to college where the more social side of me clicked into gear, probably too much so, you could argue. But I definitely feel that it's made me a more balanced person. But deep down, I'm still a nerd. You know, if you get to know me outside of the
9 to 5, you know that I'm still a big nerd. And talk to me about so your dad was a fishmonger and a bartender. Mom, because of some illness, really was a stay at home. So it wasn't a lot of dollars and cents to spread around rural Ireland, but you find your way to university because you earned yourself quite a scholarship. That's an accomplishment. But how did you feel when you're in that university knowing that probably to you every pound counted where there might be people in that
university, it just that seemed like to have unlimited spending? It it's funny that I've ended up making a career evangelizing for shorter hours because my dad used to leave the house at 6 o'clock in the morning. My mom was up to, you know, greet him, make him a cup of tea before he went out the door. He often wasn't back till 7 or 8 in the evening. I was on the road. He was working shifts that the weekend. So I certainly didn't grow into work time reduction.
And, yeah, I I was definitely aware of I I was getting by scraping and scrounging. You know, most weeks, I didn't have a 100 quid. And, the alcohol budget was very constrained. And I was aware of that compared to most of the other people in my circle. I I I also was very aware that if I wasn't able to qualify for the student grant, there's no way in hell that I would have been able to go to
college. And that definitely gave me an awareness around the importance of equality of opportunity and that, you know, like Grace that, the the the privilege that I was in that maybe my parents weren't afforded. And the last question I want to talk to you about in universities, you ran for election twice. The first time you were decimated and the second time you as you said, you squeaked out a win. What was the best lesson from both of those elections that you took away? My
friends had a nickname for me, which was Joe 81. I don't think I've ever shared that before, but that was the number of votes I got in that that election. And just to say that was not a high number. So decimated is the is the right word to use. But I went into it, you know, being honest, didn't do a huge amount of planning and preparation, was kinda doing it as a dark throw. And it was only during that campaign that I realized, you know what? I like this. I'm good at this. I can
do this. You know? I I remember the first speech that I gave, a lot of people coming up to me saying, you know, we've already decided that we're supporting somebody else, but that was great. So, my takeaway from that wasn't that I've been really badly defeated. My takeaway was, what do I need to do to actually do this properly, do this right?
And and it really struck me that power of having the right people around you because it would have been very I had a great circle of friends that I'm so close to today, and it would have been very easy for them to to say, you know what? We've invested a lot of time in a lost cause, in a hopeless case the first time around. But if it wasn't for them, I
wouldn't have got over the line the second time. So, you know, having that strength of of the the Chatter, the people around you, I think is an important thing, whether it's student politics, whether it's in business, whether it's in life. Hi. It's Tony Chapman. I just wanna take a few seconds to thank you for listening to Chatter That Matters. And if you could do me a favor, subscribe to the show, follow me on Chatter That
Matters across any social program. Tell your friends about it because I think the world needs more positivity and possibility to counter the storm of negativity and growing sense of impossibility. Now, let's get back to the show. Today, I'm joined by Joe O'Connor and Grace Tallon, life partners and partners in work time reduction. And Grace, after your schooling, you became the youngest female to ever be elected to the council of Dublin. And I sensed it from day 1, your mission in life was to
close the gap between the haves and the have nots. Yeah. I think you're right. I believe that small things do make a difference. And I think that when we look at the world, it's so easy to think no point in me being involved, no point in me voting, no point in me supporting different causes. But I think I was lucky, to have a certain type of family that believed that also and to be exposed to different campaigns and realize that, you know,
your voice matters. And, yeah, I've I've tried to build initiatives and and and be involved in different projects that do support that and and try to close the gap. And you made another move on the chessboard. Instead of deciding that politics was maybe the lane you're gonna spend time in, you got involved for a not for profit. And once Three, reached into your love for music and wanting to make sure other people got involved. Tell me what you were doing. And then when I sensed the pandemic hit
and you got hit with an unbelievable sledgehammer. Well, I made the difficult decision to to step away from politics. The area that I was running was changing boundaries. It was becoming a 3 c shirt. The idea that I was gonna be where I wanted to be sort of in 10 years was looking at that. That was gonna Key, you know, moving more 20 years. So I decided to to take a step away, and, I wanted to obviously still do something that was, I believe, powerful and still part
of kind of my vision and my mission. I was lucky to get the position as the executive director of a not for profit, wonderful organization in Dublin, primarily sort of focused on education. We have huge number of students. The pandemic hit. And, obviously, at that stage, the idea that you would have a music lesson on a Zoom on a Zoom call was alien to people. And it was alien to me at the time. But I had 50 staff, incredible, passionate
educators that I knew needed this job. We we I could not close the doors. We were already struggling as most not for profits are particularly, you know, arts arts education. That's always where the first cuts come. So I scrambled. I I I called somebody that I thought, you know, I I I think this person might be able to help me. And we were the 1st music, institute up online the following day. So we closed our doors, and we were told, you know, that was the day everybody was
told, go home, shut your doors. And everybody was on lessons the next day. So that was a Thursday night, and we started, the following day. So that was an incredible week for Key, actually, because, you know, I learned a huge amount about my own ability, and my own confidence. And I think that, you know, as a leader and as CEOs of organizations, you have to trust in in that. I think sometimes we there's a negativity around confidence, but you've got to be confident
a positive one too, I suppose, because we were able to change things. You know, Grace, I know that you and Joe traveled in similar circles. But from what I understand, it was an initiative that really began this great adventure together. I knew that small independent businesses in COVID were going to struggle. A lot of these people didn't have an online presence. So I saw Joe had put a post up on on, I think, Twitter or Twitter around this time. And I reached out and
said, look. I'm looking at trying to do something similar. We both believe in the the importance of local business, and we wanted to try and do something to to help those businesses survive. So surprisingly, there were hundreds of businesses who just didn't have the knowledge of at that stage, how to they didn't have a website. They didn't know how to do that. They didn't sell their products online. So we put a little team together and we set up the doorstep market,
which was supporting local businesses. The idea is you buy your favorite things from, you know, Doolin was my favorite place to buy things. So you can buy things from, you know, the country in in Ireland where you usually do in your holidays, you know, trying to encourage people to support local businesses, which everybody wanted to do, but didn't really have a way to do that at that time. So we set this up and tell me the rest is history, I guess. K. So, Joe, let me turn it over
to you now. This is a lane that you found yourself in, this concept of, you know, work time reduction, shorter work weeks, productivity. When did it become not just something you were curious about, but a lane that you wanted to drive, own the pole position, be someone that's gonna be a force of change? I think with lots of career decisions, I'm not sure that there was one moment one day, where I decided this is what I wanna do for, you know, this part of my life.
Originally, this was something that was a side hustle, but a voluntary side hustle. I was doing this, talking about this issue back when most people regarded this as a kind of a pie in the sky crazy idea. There was a very, very small number of businesses in Ireland doing this, and I know that that was the case globally. And I think it was a combination of good foresight and good fortune. You know, early in the pandemic, I had been
talking about this issue. It was more of a philosophical conversation that Three mindedness from employers to different ways of working, to testing out different work models. I was finding more and more people were contacting me interested in this. So it was partly a pragmatic move to say, I don't, on my own, have the capacity to support all of these businesses. Let's set something up that creates a little bit of community that coordinated where I can support these businesses in a
cohort, in a group. I linked up with University College Dublin and Boston College to track the the outcomes of this experiment, which back then in Ireland was very small scale, handful of businesses. And then ended up, you know, having the kind of success where I found myself a little bit on the crest of a wave of something that was, you know, developing into a global conversation. Was one of the the few people globally actively doing stuff in this space.
And that led me to to North America where, 4 Day Week Global, an organization I had been collaborating with for a number of years, We're looking to do something similar in the US to what I had done in Ireland. And we moved to to New York City in in 2021 to to try and make that happen. And so what brought you to Canada? I know that when you were a kid, instead of falling in love with rugby like every other Irish kid, you followed North American sports and hockey and, for
some reason, the Maple Leafs, giving them a Habs fan. But I don't wanna do a sidebar, but what what brought you to Canada? Because to me, I see United States possibly being more open minded to challenging the status quo than Canadians. Well, I'd be lying if I said that it was exclusively a professional decision. We had moved to the US initially, you know, and this is to your point of when was that moment that you knew you were doing this as a Chatter.
I initially thought that that the US was gonna be a 12 month project. I had a research assignment with Cornell University. I was gonna have a cool experience, and then we're gonna move home to Ireland. And, obviously, we felt that this had legs. We felt that this had momentum, that there was a real opportunity to to grow this, in North America. But we didn't feel like settling
down. Like, we had a phenomenal experience in NYC. It was an incredible time in our lives, but we didn't feel that was the place that we want to settle down and start a family. I had friends in Toronto. I visited a few times, guys that moved here pretty much straight after we graduated
from college. So I knew the city a bit and I felt like this could be a good balance between, you know, the things we liked about New York, but maybe with a little bit more a focus on work life balance, on health care, on community, maybe some of the things that that we we missed a little bit about Ireland. And up to now, you know, I think that decision has has been a good one. You're listening to Chatter That Matters. When we come back, a 4 day work week is a
big ask of any company. So I ask Joe and Grace, how do they get leaders to open their minds to this possibility? And then I go out on a limb to share my views on immigration. BK Sethi is one of the many newcomers I've covered who immigrated Well, that's where the RBC newcomer advantage comes in. Here, new can feel like home, and many of the RBC advisors that specialize Three
this area have been through their own newcomer journey. They can offer you unbiased advice that goes well beyond banking, introductions to community partners that can help you with housing, careers, children, and even mentorship services. And there's some value rich offers. You get a no monthly fee banking for a year with an eligible checking account, a credit card, and 0 transfer fees when you send money to almost any country in the world, and so much more. I put a link
in my podcast notes on how to reach an RBC newcomer adviser. It's Tony Chapman welcoming you to Canada and the RBC Newcomer Advantage. Shorter work weeks lead to happier, healthier employees. Yes. We we see that across, you know, a range of different employee well-being indicators, but they also lead to more productive, more efficient
companies that find it easier to attract and retain talent. So this is something that can genuinely, if it's positioned right, if it's designed right, if the employer and the employee are working together, this can be a win win. You're listening to Chatter That Matters with Tony Chapman presented by RBC. Today, I'm joined by Joe O'Connor and Grace
Tallent. They're life partners, but they're also partners in their new venture, Work Time Reduction, and both come from careers driven by purpose, and both want to lead enterprise to a 4 day work week. Both very attached to the academic world, non for profit. How do you turn that into becoming entrepreneurs? Was that an easy step to say, we're going to turn this into a business and grow this business versus, you know, as you said, a
research grant, which will be a fantastic experiment. We're gonna have a good time, and then we're gonna move on to the next. Well, we felt that there was a demand and a need and an opportunity for this. You know, let let's pull this away from the philosophical conversation around, will we all be working a 4 day work week in 10 years' time? The reality is is that this is a growing market. More and more businesses are looking to this as an opportunity to differentiate themselves when it comes
to to talent and give themselves a competitive advantage. They're looking to this as an opportunity to address issues around productivity, around burnout. I think there's lots of organizations that can't pay top dollar in salaries. Maybe they can't offer complete work from home flexibility. So they're looking for something else that can enable them
to retain and recruit, the best people. So this is something that all of the data that we see shows that this is is something that more and more employers are open to, more and more
employers are are looking to adopt. So regardless of whether the the the long term vision that I hold dearly that this becomes something that is the norm across society, Whether that comes true or not, this is going to continue to be something that I think is going to to grow in the years to come incrementally based on more and more businesses seeing how this can work, through the demonstrations we've seen in a whole variety of different industries and
different countries, that it can solve real problems and real challenges that they're facing today, and that it can actually allow them to
get ahead of the curve when it comes to to their competitors. And we are still at this early Chatter stage, but I'm convinced that it will be followed by a fast follower stage where there's gonna be businesses and industries who have seen their competitors do this, seen the benefits, and then start to turn to this as as an opportunity for them and their business.
So Grace, is your positioning that to clients? I have to believe that most employees would raise their hands going, I would love to have this type of thinking in my organization. We would be a better organization for it and a better culture. Employers who often are reluctant to change the status quo, I have to believe they
Takeaways quite a bit of convincing. What is your strategy to get organizations that at least open their mind of the possibility that this might be the way to attract, retain, and grow an organization. That's very much what we talk about. Most of the people that we are supporting, companies we are supporting are coming to us. So this isn't something that we're selling now. It will probably turn into that, but currently, we're not necessarily
outwardly selling. People, leaders, CEOs, you know, executive directors on boards, they're already open to this idea. So I personally don't feel that this is really something you can sell to somebody who's totally against it. You have to be somewhat open to the idea before you're going to engage an organization like work term reduction,
and and and enter into that. And, yes, of course, we deal with lots of employees who want to convince their boss and we support them and we give them resources and and, you know, the the the plan and we map that out for them. But leaders who are completely against it currently today, we don't see that that's a that's the best use of our time and our limited resources. But what I would say to CEOs and leaders who are closed minded is how is your business doing? Are your people happy?
Your people are your business. If you want your business to thrive, you want your people to invest in that business, you want them to stay. This is, a gift that is so transformational to their lives that they will be so much happier outside of work, inside of work, and that can only help you grow your business. So it's a no brainer to me, but, you know, you know that lots
of lots of businesses see this as as a huge challenge currently. And Joe, I listen to a lot of your interviews that were up on the YouTube channel. Some of them were podcasts. And you do have a strong point of view. What advice can you give to entrepreneurs to build their personal brand and their thought leadership to lift an entire sector versus just something that might lift their perspective
business? Yeah. I mean, I think that that's linked to our strategy that that Grace has just described, which is that is not something where we're reaching out to a 100 people and culture leaders to say, hey. Have you thought of the 4 day work week? 1 of that the the that positives and negatives of what we've seen in the last number of years is this is an issue that has got an awful lot of headlines, coverage. Some of it positive. Some of it myths and
misconceptions that we need to challenge when we engage with people. But it means that I would say most or organizations and people leaders have a view on this. Whether it's a well formed, well thought out view or not is
another Matters, but they have a view. So our focus is is very much on growing awareness of us as an organization, growing awareness of Three research, the benefits, the opportunity, how if you design this in a very intentional, well structured, deliberate way, it can really drive value
for your business and your people. So a lot of the work that I do in the media is very much around trying to get that message out there so that if and when an organization is looking at work time reduction, is looking at the potential for a shorter work week, that we're one of the organizations that's top of mind when they're starting that process of deliberation. And Grace, one of your north stars is really to address the inequality or the unlevel playing field when involves female
workers. And I think you came up with a quote just talking about some boss that said, you know, if she's pregnant, we don't need her because this job is too important. And it really to me was the activist coming through. So talk to me about how important that is to you in terms of your personal mission within the company. Well, the 4 day week isn't isn't
obviously isn't a new idea. I mean, women have been doing it for years successfully, but they've been reducing their work time and reducing their pay, but they still have the same job expectations. And, you know, I think every single person listening to this podcast knows at least one woman who has had to do that for different reasons. It's not always just for for childcare. It you know, caring responsibilities have Chatter. And often women are caring for elderly parents and have different
other responsibilities. And mostly, the caring responsibilities fall to the woman. I think one thing that employers need to think about as well is you are cutting off a whole section of society when you make the workplace so difficult for women to work around their lives outside of of that. And that person, those people could be the talent that you needed to turn your business around. So what I see and I mean, flexibility has to be the first thing. So to me, flexibility
is is hugely important for family, really important for women. You've got to have that flexibility. And then underneath that, then you have work time reduction to fit into that. That if you afford women the opportunity to fit their work around their life, you have opened up a huge pool of talent. So, you know, I I I deeply believe that this is going to change
change the the playing field for women and for families. And it and it remains to be seen over the the course of the next, you know, decade, and we're we're undertaking some some research to look at that, but certainly early indicators have shown that men take up so much more responsibilities at home, and that has had a huge impact, on families. So I'm excited to see where that goes. And, Joe, the elephant in the room is AI. Some people say it's gonna stampede and take away almost
everybody's job, so it's not gonna be about a 4 day work week. It's just gonna be chronic unemployment. But you've got a different point of view. You're saying that AI is an important tool in creating confidence with employers that they can actually get more with less hours and have people feel productive and purposeful. Technological advancements have largely driven the productivity gains that have made reduced work time possible all the way throughout
history. And that process kinda started to stall in around the late seventies, early eighties. We've seen incredible advances in the last number of decades that have boosted our productive capacity, things like the internet, email and digital communications technologies, the globalization of trade.
I think if you look at the big picture, a lot of the big fragmentation that we've seen in our economies and our societies, things like what's happening south of the border with the movement to elect Donald Trump and MAGA, Brexit in the UK, far right populist movements gaining a lot of traction in Europe. It is this sense that people were left behind and the benefits of
those gains were not shared with them in an equitable way. I think there's an opportunity to reframe the conversation around AI, where there's a lot of doom and gloom. There's a lot of pessimism. I think there's a lot of
fear. I think if you're an employer and you wanna be a market leader in adopting and embracing new tools and technologies, like large language models and all of the other major developments that have come on stream in the last year, is to look at this and say, is there an opportunity to incentivize people to embrace these tools by sharing some of the benefit of that in the
form of reduced work time? So if we can gain 4 hours through use of these tools, can we reinvest 2 hours in new projects and initiatives and give 2 of those hours back to employees in the form of reduced work time? I think that if you offer an incentive that's greater than, these tools will create the space for more work, then I think that you've got a much better chance of being a real leader when it comes to to to these technologies. So look, there's
no question. All of the work that I've done in the last 5 years has shown how the companies that have made shorter work weeks possible have used technology to automate certain tasks, to streamline certain administrative processes. Well, the scope and potential for that in the last 12 months alone has grown exponentially. So look at the opportunity. I think your name sucks. Just having the word reduction in in a name to me, it seems to defeat everything you're talking about, which is
about opportunity. It's about growth. It's about, a renaissance. I'm wondering why you picked work time reduction as your brand. I think there was a couple of reasons, and I appreciate you being candid. And I don't disagree. You know, Three we've had conversations about the negative framing of reduction, and we've, you know, tried to counter that with other positive messages alongside it.
We wanted to be explicit about what we were talking about. The 4 day workweek brings with it a whole lot of baggage in terms of people's misconceptions about what it actually means. And there are a whole variety of different models when we talk about the shorter work week. It could be a 4 day week with universal day off. It could be a 4 day week with split shifts and rosters. It could be something where you have a differentiated design depending
on the team or the department. Maybe it's a 9 day fortnight or a half day Friday or 5 shorter workdays. So we were trying to encapsulate and communicate the fact that this is not one size fits all. And, actually, you know, we are being explicit in saying, work time reducing that can bring with it a whole lot of benefits, both for business and for people. That can be
a win win. So our experience with it, and it's not been perfect, but it's been compared to the 4 day work week, it's maybe less immediate. It's less attention grabbing. It's probably not as sexy and populist. But it's also once we get in the room with people leaders who are genuinely exploring this, it can tend to be a little bit more inclusive and a little bit less polarizing. But as somebody with your background in in communications, any advice that
you would have for us would be greatly appreciated and taken on board. My last questions and, again, because a lot of people listening are on their own journey in life, and and so much of this is lessons in life that hopefully they can use to get to where they deserve and wanna go. You 2 have found each other as business partners and life partners. How does that work in terms of who has influence, who has authority? Because there's a lot of couples that
are like you, not only dream, they do. So just curious of what advice you could give to other people that find themselves in a similar type of life and business relationship. I think that we communicate really openly and honestly. I think we've learned that throughout our lives, Three a different relationships, both professional and and business. And, you know, I think that that is really important to us, and we always try to communicate daily, communicate, you know, pros
and cons openly, honestly. And I I I think that's why it works. You know, we were both anxious going into setting up a business together. It's bloody hard doing it on your own. It's extremely hard doing it with your with your life partner. So I think the the thing that has helped us is is communication and being respectful to to each other with regard to that. So that's one piece of advice I would give. Don't be afraid and and make sure that you're always checking in and communicating, and I
think that goes for every every partnership. I probably didn't realize that it was important to me to have somebody who shared my passion for turning ideas into action, on my life's journey until I met Grace. And I think that that's really driven everything we've done inside and outside of work. You know, when we we first met, we didn't work together. So we've kinda seen both sides of it. It wasn't like we met, and we immediately set up a business together.
Grace was obviously in a leadership role. So was I. I think one of the big benefits of what we're doing is that we share the successes, and we share the stresses. When we get good news, we can can, celebrate that together. When we get a setback, just in the last few weeks, we had a major project that was due to kick off this month that been shelved by 6 months. I think we've kind of that inbuilt resilience together, you know, that that really makes a difference.
So, so, yeah, there there used to be a time when maybe I was on a high, Grace was on a low, or vice versa. And now, you know, we're we're kind of aligned, on that journey, which, which I think is a is a pretty pretty cool thing. That it definitely it's not always wonderful, and we have to work at it. But but in the round, it's been, it's been certainly something I would not dissuade people who are considering it from doing. You know, I always end my podcast with my Three
takeaways. And the first is just how impressed I am with both of you. And I was from the day we first met. I mean, this was Michelle Smi saying, can you give these guys 10 minutes? And I think it really comes down to both of you were blessed with upbringing that Three this wonderful soul that you really are there to make a difference. And it's not about your north star
is not about chasing profits, it's about chasing purpose. And I think one of the most important lessons I always say to entrepreneurs is you need a higher prop purpose and profit. If you think you just you talk to me about an exit strategy, you might as well exit now. But if you talk about changing the world like you do, Grace, that's magic. The second thing is just how many lessons you've learned along the way. I find so often people race
through life. They're so consumed by getting to the next point. And when I think about, Joe, how you talked about your love of reading and then university and what you learned about yourself and grace the non for profit when, you know, suddenly the pandemic hits and you got to turn everything on Zoom. And the fact that you continue to carry these lessons, as you said, you know, I learned how to practice with music. I can teach my clients to practice.
I I think it's just wonderful. And the third thing that I'm going to say is I'm going to continue to say your name sucks. And it's not, this is not a descriptive name. It doesn't do justice for what you're after. You are unleashing something of such extraordinary opportunity for the marketplace. You're giving permission to change the status quo. You're giving people who can't afford talent that ability to attract better talent, to retain their
talent. You're giving organizations an opportunity to leaders organizations to go home at night and go to sleep knowing that they're caring for their employees and they're doing something special. You're allowing Grace that women in this world that have knocked themselves down to 4 days, but still do 5 days worth work with less pay to say that we can do this a different way. And so I just want you to Three. I'm not Chatter your name, but I want you to be bolder and even more
passionate about this campaign that you're out to do. Because, yes, you'll be successful as a business, but I think that your legacy and when you look back in your life is not gonna be whether that client delayed you for 6 months or not or this client came in, it's gonna be a lot of different cultures operating in a lot of different ways because of the kind of thinking that you brought them. So I I'm just thrilled to have met you. And if this was Dragon's Den, I'd say I'm investing.
Chatter that matters is never far from my mind, and I often reflect on the journeys of the guests who have joined me here. And so many have been immigrants or refugees or first generation Canadians, and their contributions have been instrumental in shaping and enriching our communities, our society, and country, and they're not an anomaly. Immigration has always been
vital to Canada, but perhaps never more so than now. Our population's aging, our birth rates are declining, and we urgently need the energy and innovation that immigrants bring to help us build and sustain a new economy. However, where I differ from current policy is in its tendency to be driven solely
by numerical quotas. We must move beyond mere numbers, and instead adopt a strategy that serves the best interests of our country, the people who are currently here, and those who choose to make Canada their new home. Let's first talk about our country. For it to thrive going forward, we need a vision for a new economy, one that's powered by productivity. It's guided by purpose and abundant with
middle class opportunities. And with our wealth of intellectual, financial, and natural resources, and our proximity to global economic powerhouses like the States, There's no reason why Canada can't become a leader, a superpower in fields like agriculture, technology, content, renewable energy, and so much more. But to achieve this vision, we have to align our private, academic, and public sectors. They have to work more effectively and
efficiently. Currently, they seem disjointed rather than working in harmony towards our shared goals. Furthermore, we can't ignore the impact of technological advancements, such as artificial intelligence, on the job market. We need to implement training programs to ensure our citizens can adapt and thrive in this rapidly changing landscape. And equally important is the selection and integration of
immigrants who come into Canada. We must ensure that these newcomers are given the opportunities they deserve, rather than being relegated to jobs that don't utilize their skills, or talents, or ambitions. We all deserve to chase and pursue the Canadian dream. I've witnessed time and time again that when people are given the opportunity to succeed, they not only better their own lives,
but also uplift those around them. And if you know anyone who's thinking of coming to Canada, I want to take a moment to give a shout out to RBC and their program, the RBC Newcomer Advantage. Put yourself in the shoes of a newcomer coming into Canada the first time. Culture's different, language could be different, everything's different, and they're facing the daunting task of getting climatized, finding employment, securing housing, and navigating financial
systems. The RBC Newcomer Advantage extends beyond banking to help newcomers to hit the ground running. The adviser, more often than not, has already made that journey to Canada, so they understand how people are thinking, feeling, and behaving, And they offer vital resources such as housing assistance, career guidance, and mentorship opportunities, and so much more. Immigration matters to all of us, to you, to me, and to all who are willing to
chase the Canadian dream. Chatter that matters has been a presentation of RBC. It's Tony Chapman. Thanks for listening, and let's chat soon.