Give you a peek behind the curtain, Chad, that matters. I do my own research, and I really like to have directional questions and a sense of where I want this interview to go. Wearing my listener's shoes, I always think about head, heart, and hands. Is this subject matter gonna be interesting emotionally? Is it gonna touch a chord? Are there some ideas and that my listener can action, that I can action as I go about my life. But there's times where we go completely off script.
The game plan is thrown out almost immediately. And trying to keep my emotions in check becomes very difficult because I, in fact, am so moved. And that's my interview today with Glyn Lewis. He's the visionary behind renewal development. So we tear down 600 really nice homes every year. To me, that seems incredibly wasteful. It's It's wasteful from a a material perspective. It's wasteful from an embodied carbon perspective. It's wasteful from a housing perspective. Those are good
homes that someone could be living in. He's turning a wrecking ball into a tool for sustainability. He's saving beautiful homes that were gonna be demolished just because they're in the way of development and repurposing them into communities that need housing. And they don't just get affordable housing. They get the gift of a beautiful house.
And the emotions that poured through my veins when I was talking about the admiration I have for him for finding this purpose and pursuit, the gratitude he has for his mentors, including his younger sister, his mother, his comprehension of what it takes to both dream and do, his knowledge of philosophy and psychology. Being a disruptor, being truly innovative to transform something to hopefully a better place is
incredibly challenging. Well, all of that ladders into one beautiful tale of an entrepreneur who's in a constant conversation with both mother nature and human nature. Hi. It's Tony Chapman. Thank you for listening to Chatter That Matters presented by RBC. If you can, please subscribe to the podcast and ratings reviews, well, they're always welcome and they're always appreciated. And with that introduction, Glyn Lewis, I'd like to welcome you to Chatter
That Matters. Thanks for having me, Tony. So my show is about people that overcome circumstances. They chase dreams. They change their world and ours for the better. I've walked by a house that deserves to be torn down a hundred times, and I just see a house is about to be torn down. You saw this as an opportunity to not only create a business, but as you call it, as a campaign to to save the planet. So I wanna know a little bit more
about you before we get into the business. Where where did this sign of mine come from? Talk to me about your, your upbringing. I think it was Shakespeare who said the past is prologue and to understand where you're going, you really have to understand where you've come from. I grew up here in Metro Vancouver, went to Simon Fraser University. I signed up, as a chemistry major. I thought I wanted to be, a
chemistry educator, actually. I had some really great teachers when I was in high school, and I just thought that was gonna be my contribution, was to kind of mentor and guide. Something interesting about the sciences that,
you know, it's a a fair amount of curiosity. You know, you're kind of trying to understand the world, and you're trying to understand how things work and why they work the way they do, and I think that kind of reflects a little bit about my, you know, alternative way of looking at problems, is through that lens of curiosity and what ifs. So I was at SFU. I I watched Inconvenient Truth, the Al Gore
documentary about climate change. I guess that was around 02/2005, how unsustainable it felt to keep developing our communities and our global economy the way that it was, especially if you look at population growth and you look at all these different factors adding up together to have this incredible impact on the Earth's ability to sustain life. But I I kinda felt like we knew what a lot of the problems were, and it wasn't so much about defining the problem as it
was about coming up with creative solutions. And so I ended up actually shifting my degree to this thing called sustainable community development. I did my, thesis with this, doctor Mark Roseland. He wrote this book called Towards Sustainable Communities. It's a seminal book. It's used around the world now. And that course was kind of my blueprint for thinking through how do we build our communities differently, how do we build our economies differently, how do we plan our our neighborhoods
differently? I ended up working in politics for a while. I went down to United States. I worked there for a year. I came back, and I worked in politics here in Canada, both at the federal level, and provincial level and local level. Ended up starting a company that built software, to help enable political campaigns and political
movements. I was working in the nonprofit sector a bit too, and then a few years later, what happened, Tony, was my sister was living in this really charming 1920, '19 '19 '30 home in Esquimalt. She took really good care of the home, and they were renovating it, and they just it was just it's such a beautiful, charming, you know, big bay windows and the high vaulted ceilings and all that kind of stuff. And, a developer bought the whole city block to do what's called
a land assembly, so to add density. And we're seeing this happen hundreds, if not thousands of times, all across Metro Vancouver, Greater Victoria, and some other growing urban areas where you're seeing a lot of these single family homes being gobbled up into land assemblies and being
slated for demolition to make space for higher density development. And so when my sister's house was purchased in this land assembly by this developer, Nesquimalt, she being also being a bit of environmentalist herself, just thought this was a terrible idea, and she said, no. I don't I I don't wanna let just this home go to the landfill. So she ended up, working with a, a contractor who lifted the home and put it on a truck and moved it, North
of Souk. And she moved it there with her partner, and then they repurposed it. Tony, when my sister did this, it just awakened in me this, like, wow, what a brilliant model. Right? It's housing. It's more affordable housing. It's more sustainable housing, you know, and there's all of these great homes being demolished. Why doesn't more of this happen? I wanna unpack a lot of that. I guess the first question is you're in this white lab coat and you're doing everything you
thought you wanted to do. You make a big course correction when you start focusing on the environment. And then the next course correction is saying, I don't want to be in this lab coat anymore. And I'm curious, was that an individual that touched you in a certain way? Or was it just simply the, you know, the Al Gore film and book? Or do you think this was something that was always in you, that there was a greater calling than a classroom,
that your calling was going to be a community or broader? You know, I'm a big believer that we're we have certain innate capabilities and skills and talents. At a certain point, you might hit a ceiling. And I think that within the lab environment, I saw a limitation of what I'm capable of or what I'm interested in and what I can do using this space. And I just felt that there was more growth in an if I took a
different pathway. And the different pathway was to say, okay, great. We we know what the problems are, but I I really wanna work on the solutions. And then my second question, because when you go into politics, it really is a profession of influence versus authority. Going into there. Did you feel that that was also limiting in the sense
that. It was a lot of consensus and a lot of collaboration and maybe a first gear where you were wired more for saying, I want to have my hand on that stick shift and I want to choose the gears. When I was working in politics, you know, it's such a machine. Right? And there's different people play different roles, and it's huge, and it can be very
bureaucratic. And you have to work really hard for a really long time to build enough power internally of that structure to really have latitude, to have a fair amount of agency. You know, all of the backbencher MLAs and MPs or the people who work on campaigns, it's like you're just part of something way bigger. But if you're someone like me who appreciates agency and having freedom and creative control and all of these things, that that just wasn't
the right forum for me to be fully expressed. And so being an entrepreneur, creating something where I can have complete creative control and leadership and guidance over. If I'm gonna use the best of my talents and skills and capabilities,
this was the right channel for me. What advice can you give to young people to have the courage to look around at their circumstances and go, if this is a square peg in a round hole, it's okay to declare that and to find something else versus a lot of people, which I think get on this escalator that they think they're heading up, but as quickly as you did or maybe a decade later, they realized they're really not moving. The posters behind me are from
Apple's, think different campaign. One of my favorite ads of all time. So that entire the ethos that Steve Jobs brought to Apple and what he thought what he saw and envisioned Apple's role in the world was and which I thought was so perfectly summarized in the think different campaign. Right? The the square pegs and the round holes. Here's to the crazy ones, the ones who've envisioned a different world and are willing to to fully commit themselves
to creating that world in in their own way differently. And we all benefit from that through innovation and creativity, break down old barriers and trying to force change onto industries or force change onto established norms. And it's incredibly hard, Tony, and I'm I'm sure from all a lot of folks that you've probably talked to in in the work that you've done in your in your life, being a disruptor, being truly innovative to transform something to
hopefully a better place is incredibly challenging. But, you know, Newton's I think it was his first you know, being a scientist, Newton's first law of thermodynamics, an object at rest has a tendency to remain at rest unless acted upon by an outside force. You have to put the force together, and that could be creative force, it could be spiritual force, it could be emotional force, you know, enterprise force. You have to amass that to try to drive change onto something that doesn't wanna
change. And inherently and and physics and and the the natural world shows us that things don't wanna naturally change. You know, it takes a certain amount of courage and boldness to try to envision what you want your own life to be about, to create the role that you want to. It could be in your relationships. It could be within your family. It could be within your career. It could be within whatever domain it is. It's about just not falling
into the pattern. It's not about falling into the stream just because the stream is moving in this direction, charting that new different course or the way that that feels right for you and having the courage to lean into that. No. It's funny. I always talk about it as the invisible bars at the status quo, and we never realize that we're holding on to them. I always wonder when I talk to young people, is it a comfort level? Is it validation? Because this is what your
parents wanted you to do. Is it just, you know, I've decided that in my life, I'm going to work to live versus choose a path in life that, that also gives me life. So great philosophy. Your sister, is she older or younger? She's two years younger. Her desire to save this house. There must have been an awful lot of people that said to her, you know, this is not a smart decision. It is something I've always known about her is that she doesn't accept the status quo.
And if she thinks something is broken, she will fight to change it. And I think it's that quality that I admire, often to her own detriment. When I saw her do this project, it just fit within this what I knew about her to be true. She's always going to be that person to pick the hard fight to do the right thing. Here's to the crazy ones, the misfits, the rebels, the troublemakers, the round pegs in the square holes, the ones who see things differently. They're not fond of
rules, and they have no respect for the status quo. You talk about here's the crazy ones. If it were if you had to pick between you and her to be in that ad, who would just who would have deserved it more? I think she has more vision than I do. I think I have more of, like, the strategy about what needs to happen to get to that point. While some may see them as the crazy ones, we
see genius. I listened to one of the interviews you did, and you talked about a teacher in your life, this Yoda that touched you and and made you realize there was more to you than you thought even met your eye. Who was that teacher? My chemistry grade 12 teacher. A little bit bit about me going in in high school is I wasn't a great student. In fact, I struggled a fair bit. I think I had my own learning challenges and motivation challenges, and I almost failed grade 11
chemistry. In the summer of grade 11 going to grade 12, I kinda had to sit down with myself and I just said, you know, what is this life gonna be about, Glyn? If you if you really wanna do something here, you're gonna have to sit down and really apply yourself and focus. And so I came back that September, Tony, guns a blazing, and my teachers did not recognize me. I ended up with the second
highest grade in chemistry in grade 12 in our school. So a big part of it was just that fundamental mind shift and approach that I had to take. But also, I had a great teacher. I had this great, mister Pong. He encouraged and he was supportive, and he was just one of those teachers that you wanna have in your life that that someone comes along and says, I believe in you, even when you don't might not believe in yourself. So you and your sister, I have to believe you weren't the
easiest kids just because of your appetite for life. But how did your parents did they encourage that? What I always say to parents sometimes is when you have these, these people with an appetite for life, don't starve it, feed it. A bit of backstory is my, my dad was a sixth generation Canadian. His his grand his mother was Russian. They were Doukhobors. And my mom was Greek. And so she had this entire different worldview than my dad did. Born in,
in Athens, and she grew up in in Europe. And I think my mom really had this perspective of the world's your oyster and if you work hard and if you fight for what you believe in, Glyn, you're anything and everything is possible for us to keep leaning
into everything that we wanted to do. So when my sister took on the fights that she did, when I'm trying to, you know, create build renewal development and and do the work that we do, I I we're constantly coming up against opposition and resistance, and you have to kinda have this innate belief that it's possible to get through it. Coming up
is much more than just my three takeaways with Glyn Lewis. We have an honest conversation about whether his model, his vision, of instead discarding our past because it gets in the way of progress can in fact be repurposed so that it helps others get on the way to their future. And then I'll have Leah Robinson who's been on the show before. She's the VP of home equity financing at RBC to talk about the work RBC is doing to make homeownership more affordable.
Hi, it's Tony Chapman from Shatter That Matters. RBC is offering more financing options to support Canadian homeowners looking to maximize their property's potential. Whether you want to provide supportive housing for a family member or supplement your income with a rental, RBC's Construction Mortgage Multi Units program has you covered. You can finance additions like laneway homes, garden suites, modular units, or even redevelop your home into
duplexes or triplexes. Speak to an RBC mortgage specialist today to see how this program can work for you. Maximizing the potential of your home, well that matters to you, to me, and to RBC. We are one of the only companies, if not the only company, structured the way we are in North America. The demolition, the moving, and the repurposing all integrated into one company. As far as I know, no other company is structured like
us. It's not only just building your own team. It's not only just being a CEO and the culture and having the right people and training them up. It's also externally how dynamic and innovative and disruptive our business model is and how challenging it is. Today, my special guest is Glyn Lewis. He's a crusader. He's a change maker. He's transformative. He believes in a better Canada, and for all the above, I believe
in him. So talk to me about renewal development because this business makes complete sense for humanity and the planet. Mhmm. But I have to believe you must have hit so many walls of resistance because to some, you're a deterrent. I just want to land grab and build. I just want to get on with my business. So tell me about the business and how you fashioned it in a way that it was worth your effort to see this thing happen? Because I gotta believe in the early
days, it wasn't easy. It's gotten easier over the years. You know, it feels like pushing a huge boulder up a hill, and you're gonna hit these bumps and all of a sudden, it slow down and you sometimes you feel like you had a little bit of momentum and then all of a sudden, you know, you now you feel like you're losing momentum and doors open, sometimes a lot of doors close. I think what a huge part of the motivation for me is that I
believe in it so firmly. Right? And you kinda have to. You wouldn't do this unless you really believed in what in in the sustainability part of this, the the raising the consciousness part of this, the, affordability part of this. You know, I often say that renewal is a campaign disguised as a company. So talk to me about renewal development. If I you know, the old the classic Dragon's Den pitch, you know, that everybody's so fascinated,
like, everything everybody wants things snackable and in a sound bite. Right. The snackable sound bite that sort of gets me excited about what you're doing. We look for homes slated for demolition. And every year, there's about 3,000 single family homes slated for demolition across Metro Vancouver every year, 3,000. And that's as a result of all of this push for density. It's all of this push for for more housing. You know, we hear it from the provincial government, the
federal government, the local government. We don't have enough housing. We don't have enough affordable housing. And so a huge part of the solution that's being promoted is just to build more housing. Now in a landlocked area, like Metro Vancouver or Greater Victoria, you know, you're only gonna be able to scroll out so far. And so now the push is to to build upwards, to densify. So to densify, these developers are buying up all of these single family homes to do land assemblies. What I do is I
try to find the good ones. You know, they could be mid century homes, they could be character homes, they could be homes built in the last five or ten years. Twenty percent of the 3,000 homes torn down every year are actually really nice, good condition, high value homes. So we tear down 600 really nice homes every year. To me, that seems incredibly wasteful. It's wasteful from a a material perspective. It's wasteful from an embodied carbon perspective. It's wasteful from a housing
perspective. Those are good homes that someone could be living in. And on the flip side, we have a housing crisis in so many of these non urban communities. We essentially provide, a demolition service, a sustainable demolition service to these developers. We lift them, we put them on trucks often, we put them on barges, we take
them to non urban communities, and then we repurpose them. So I'm essentially a general contractor, but instead of going down to Home Depot and buying all the the lumber new and all of the copper new and all of that stuff, I'm trying to maximize what already exists. You describe when people are trying to challenge your vision,
sort of a dragon, the dragons that are in the way. So tell the audience what kind of dragons are sort of breathing fire on what I love is this approach is the ultimate recycling, the three r's, but you're happy to be doing it with 2,000 or 3,000 square feet versus a Pepsi can. And it's interesting the metaphor of a dragon because it's very literal and you can see it, and some of them are much more subtle than something that's trying to
literally fight you from getting through the passage. The demolition industry. So I'm currently trying to bring a paradigm shift into an industry that's been around for hundreds, if not thousands of years, which is you've got something, you don't want it there, you smash it up, and you send it into a landfill. They own excavators, and they own a lot of the trucks to haul the materials, and sometimes they even they own the transfer stations. So they've got these entire
business models built around demolition. So I come along and I say I think there's a more responsible way to do this, and that is to recycle the good homes and then to recycle the materials that we can't, demolish. And so I am actively they're kind of a dragon. I I try not to see them as such fierce competitors. In some ways, we could probably work together. In some ways, I hope that they amend their business model, but I think that
we're going to force change on that industry. The other challenge and resistance points that we have in front of us are just developers who aren't familiar with this model. Those developers know demolition. So now I come along, I meet them in their boardroom, we'll demolish and recycle the homes that we can't move, but I'm gonna move a couple of the home the good homes. In of itself, that new model, that new process can put fear into people. It it's that change
because they're often so risk averse. They're just gonna fall back to the thing that they know how to do, which is smash the building up and get going because they just all they really care about is building their their project and selling their units and then moving on to their next project. Right?
So it's a mind shift change. When do you know you're that chemistry teacher that impacted you when you finally connect with a developer who not only feels, I'll give you a chance, but this is the right thing to do, that they change their whole mindset, that they realize that demolition matters because it's not only what you take down, but what you do with it. I had a great project with West Group. They're a huge developer here in Vancouver.
I walked into their boardroom. I said, listen, you're doing a 66 home land assembly in Port Moody. We've driven through there. We think there's at least 10 really nice homes in there. This is the model. And to their credit, they're a big developer. It was a big project. They said, yeah. Okay. Let's do it. It generated so much media interest because I ended up we ended up Renewal ended up moving the 10 homes from Port Moody to the Sunshine Coast in partnership with the Sechelt First
Nation. So the nation received the 10 homes. My company general contracted the whole thing. We did some fix ups. We did some renovations. We added basement suites. And so it's gonna end up being 17 units of of below market rental housing for nation members. It generated a lot of interest. Well, first of all, West Group got a lot of great publicity and and recognition, which I I think they honestly deserved. The nation did too for doing something so innovative
and sustainable and and a housing solution. But what it also did is it it kind of prompted all of these other developers to kind of perk their ears up and say, wait a second. That's interesting. And so we ended up getting a whole bunch of phone calls after that. So I think these things do snowball a lot. And like I was I was mentioning that pushing the ball the the boulder up the mountain is, like, you do it a few times, you prove that it works, you iron out the kinks, and it does in theory
get easier. When do you get bored of this and do something else? And I I don't mean this disrespectfully, but as you start pushing these boulders up, does this ever start feeling like you're wearing a lab coat? I've figured out this model much like your software company, and now I I need to find a new tight rope to walk on? Or do you think that this is your calling and there's just gonna be, you know, the boulders will get bigger and the grade gonna get steeper and that's what's gonna
keep you inspired and motivated? You know, in politics, because I worked in The United States and I worked in Canada, people decide to run, you know, maybe they've worked been working towards it, and maybe they start off at a local level, and then they go up to a state level or a provincial level, and every one of those rungs tests you. You're up against five or 10 or different people, and it's gonna be hard, and it's gonna be sometimes cutthroat and
and challenging. And I've watched this with peak candidates who run for elected office. I've now experienced this building, like, a really challenging business model, is that the fight and the challenge, if you can get through it and if you can survive, it strengthens your resolve. You get more locked in, and you get more committed, and you get stronger. And I've kind of felt that evolution in me over the last five years. You know, you hit some huge roadblock.
Someone says no to you. You can't move a home through there. And you say, well, that doesn't make any sense. And then you fight to overcome that challenge. You fight to get through that that dragon. And then on the on the flip side of it, you come out stronger. You come out more confident. And this has happened to me probably at least 10 times already, Tony. I think it kind of strengthens you to take on bigger and bigger challenges and
to take on bigger and bigger projects. It actually, I think, also carves a path for people behind you, myself and other people who are in this these kind of leading circular economy industries. We're leading paths for others to follow in our footsteps. So when do I get bored of this? I mean, my one of my dreams is to create a whole community of of relocated, repurposed homes somewhere here in Coastal British Columbia. I'd love to do that. 75 to a 50 homes. Master planet, think about
sustainability, think about community, rescue these homes. I think it'd be such a great thing. And I think after something like that, Tony, which might be five, ten years away from actually realizing it and completing it, and there's gonna be
a bunch of stepping stones along the way. I think after that, something like that, I'll feel really good about what I've accomplished here, and hopefully we've shifted mindsets and we've shifted policy and we've shifted ways of thinking and ways of looking at a lot of these, these things about demolition and construction. Then I think I'll be ready for another challenge. I probably will need a break because this is exhausting. I love what we do for now. And I think I can see myself
being in this for at least the next five to ten years. You know, I always end my interviews with my three takeaways and this interview went in such an extraordinary places, but this Newton law of, the sense of inertia, unless there's external forces to me is such a powerful metaphor of how life can just suddenly Bring us into the
status quo. And it's whether it was your chemistry teacher or in your case now, Glyn walking into a boardroom and saying there's a different way that when you put this external force on, especially one with such
positivity and possibility, magic can happen. The second one is the way you, you described your mom as this sort of, I almost saw her as this twenties movie star, this coming from Greece and then Europe, and then ending up in Canada, which I gotta believe must have been such a change for her. You could take her out of the world, but you couldn't take the world out
of her. And she blessed you with that. I think that is so wonderful that this world is your oyster, I think was her way of saying that's part of me and I'll never lose it and you need to discover it so that you never lose it. Their third one is like, you've almost described you in within you and your sister, Steve jobs, you know, the sense of his dream and vision of making technology transparent, The plug and play computer. Nobody cares about widgets. They just want a thousand songs in your
pocket. And then somebody that must have worked tirelessly that really said to do so you need to figure out how to, you know, it's one thing to dream it, but it's another thing to do it. And I think that's one probably the greatest lesson for people listening is you don't always have to be the dreamer. You don't always have to be the doer. But if you could put the tune together, find that higher purpose, find that higher that North Star, and chase it. You'll have the
strength to push those boulders up the hill. And I'm just thrilled I had a chance to spend some time with you today, and I know you've had a very busy day. You've asked such perceptive questions, and I I really appreciate, the enthusiasm I have also heard in your own voice. It was a pleasure meeting you. Joining me now is Leah Robinson. She's been on the show before. She's the vice president of home equity financing at RBC. Leah, welcome back to
Chatter That Matters. Tony, thanks for having me. I'm happy happy to join you today on this important topic. In terms of getting banks to open their minds, this is a new way of looking at housing. It requires more innovation, more creativity from the bank's
point of view. That's what you're doing at RBC. So I thought you could weigh in and talk more about which isn't necessarily a a skip in the park or an easy thing to sort of approve, but still requires a kind of thinking and creativity that that, you're willing to put into it. Construction right off of the bat is not for the faint of heart. And I'll say that, you know, I'll say that over and over, because there certainly is challenges in terms of working through the process. But it's it's
different ways of living. You know, when you look at some of the the the supply challenges, we really have to look at this in many different ways. New buildings, yes, are great, but how do we reuse and recycle some of the existing infrastructure and modify it so that families and communities can live
a bit differently? And that's where you know, we're looking at our programs saying, how do we support people, who wanna do this, who wanna live in multi generational homes or have the ability to to generate, additional income to be able to support support a mortgage. And so if I was in that situation saying, listen. I've got this house. I you know, maybe I want my mother-in-law to move in, or I wanna find some rental income. Is a process
for approaching someone like RBC different? Because it isn't your, you know, here's my down payment, and here's how much I can afford in a house. This is something I own and wanna do more with it. Yeah. I mean, we certainly have programs both at if it's an existing property that you own or that you wanna purchase. And it just depends as well in terms of how deep are you planning on going with that
home. We do have those options for both kinds of clients depending on what you want to do, whether it's multiple suites, whether it's putting in a single suite, adapting a space you know, for family members whether they're seniors and they need special equipment, whatever it is. Leah, part of this is not just the sort of doing the math, but it's the the insecurity and uncertainty
path that I haven't followed in the past. What is your advice? Yeah. I mean, I think the first place to start is to really understand where you're living and what are what are the requirements there. But when you're ready to kind of go through that process and you said, this is a decision that makes sense for me, our mortgage specialists are best equipped to kind of have those discussions. Finding a qualified builder, I think, is also a really important
piece of that process. Working with the municipality, what are the requirements in terms of permits, how do you go through that application process, and then the financing that you need, you
need to get through that. What role can an organization like RBC play working with the city, two very different entities, to try to encourage this kind of, sentiment so that people that do have the ability to dream and wanna do find less friction and less bureaucracy and more people there saying, yes, let's do it
together. We can make this happen. It's really difficult right right now. And so how can between a builder, a municipality, and a bank sort of come together and say, we kinda need to create a repeatable process because when people hear about how difficult, it can be, it sort of pushes them away from that, right? And it creates that fear of taking something like a big project like that on.
So, you know, creating those opportunities is really about, looking at what are the right partnerships and what are the experts, that the average person needs around them in order to be able to accomplish, something like doing a major major renovation on their home, major re reconstruction of their home in order
to be able to accomplish their goals. Leah, for all the things that you work on and manage, I have to believe that what you're doing here in terms of really helping people dream and do, find a way to get more from their property, whether that's more family living with them or more income, it's gotta be some of the most rewarding work you're doing. Absolutely. I mean, I've got, I've got personal stories in, in my own family, you know, the difficulty, in, in affordability.
Right. And, and so giving people the options to be able to adapt their, their spaces. Right. And that allows them to, you know, live in a different style of housing in a different neighborhood and things like that. So. I appreciate your time today and, just looking forward to seeing what RBC's doing in this space and, give you a standing ovation because fulfilling mortgages is repeatable doing something like this. Each one of them's a bit of a one
off. And, I'm I just congratulate you for taking that on. Thanks for having me, Tony. Appreciate it. Once again, a special thanks to RBC for supporting Chata that matters. It's Tony Chapman. Thanks for listening and let's chat soon.