Frank Palmer - As Frank as You Can Be

That is Chatter That Matters with Tony Chapman. My guest today is a character and I celebrate characters. I think this world's devoid of people because we seem to no longer wanna stand for, stand out, we're we chase validation, we're worried about offending people. But what makes this guest extra special is he's not just a character,

he's someone of immense character. He's someone that's put a dent in the universe, not just in the advertising sector, but in terms of impacting brands and individuals, and with a stellar career that stretches over a half a century. He is one of Canada's original madmen. He is the one and the only Frank Palmer. Frank, welcome to the Legends Journey. Good morning. And, I'm pleased to be here, Tony. Glad to be talking with you. It's just so

wonderful to be unpacking your journey. And more importantly, what we're really gonna get into is this concept of character and the sort of impact you've made on our industry. But let's just wind it back. I mean, you grew up in Vancouver, and I love your that sort of fork in the road that I'd love you to share where you had two choices that couldn't be more different in terms of careers? Well, I I, was about 19 when I got out of high school.

They got rid of me. And I think I got pushed out. I didn't have to write any exams. And and the choice that I was thinking about was going either to art school, Vancouver School of Art, which is now called Emily Carr or becoming a police officer. And, I actually wrote the test of Key become a police officer and I remember it very well, there was 400 people. And, what they showed you in the beginning was all the bad people and good

people and bad people and crooks and all that stuff. And then 3 hours or 4 hours later, they would show you the again, you'd have to pick out the bad people. Well, I was very fortunate that I remembered faces, and I was, selected out of 10 people to become a police officer. And and and back then when I was 19 years of age, it was a 220 pounds 6 foot 1, a little bit different today with things have shifted. And, so I was the right size and and and and and the weight, I guess, to become a cop.

But but, when I did the physical, it was great. And that I did the psychological that, I didn't pass. And, I didn't find out until 25 years later why I didn't pass. And it was an HR person that said, Frank, I've known you for a long time, and you don't know why he didn't pass. I said, well, Key didn't tell me. And then she said, well, they knew you wouldn't take orders. And I said, well, I

thought they wouldn't give me a gun. So that's what I then then what happened to me, Tony, was fortunately, spending 2 years in art school, I there was a opportunity to go to work for KBOSTV, which is a border station, and I got the job. And I walked in there and, I thought I died and went to heaven. It was $500 a month. And here I am doing artwork, and I was doing the original Beatles cell because, KBO's TV border station had, the all these drawings of cells, and I was painting the back of the

cells. You got a palette and and you say that particular one is red or this is orange or whatever it happened to be. So that's what I was doing. And, but I still I still wanna be a cop, like being old Columbo. I also heard rumors that it wasn't just a cop that in that mind that where they're trying to push you out of high school is also somebody who wanted to be a comic. I think

it was a wrestler, wasn't there? Yep. Well, it was big enough because back then I used to go to a gym called Broadway Gym and there used to be Haystalk Calhoun and Mean Gene Key and, a bunch of wrestlers that were going to the gym. And I was almost as big as both of those guys put together and, that wasn't as big as them? But I thought, Key, this is be a good thing to do. It's entertaining, bit bit of a show business. Cop is a bit of a, you know, you're a bit of a there's power

and entertaining. Rek combat, you want people to like you. And I think that when you blend them all together, you become maybe a character like you talked about because you're kind of on stage and entertaining. And I think clients deal with people they like, you know, and I think you have to entertain these people, you know, on a regular basis. There's a lot

of young people that are listening to this show. And what I was interested in is how you went from being sort of the hired gun, the graphic artist, that even the that showbiz person to very quickly in your career becoming a partner in an agency and not just a partner that almost it seemed overnight, you went from being CEO and president. You became the person who's gonna drive the business. Yeah.

I I, I think that, back in 1969, which, your many of your listeners can figure out that old item, I worked for a a direct mail company after KBO's TV, and there's 2 individuals that used to come in there. Red was one was Red Robinson, which was a original Vancouver rock and roll guy. Brought Elvis Presley to Vancouver and interdict interviewed to him and, a number of other people, the Beatles, and, a guy by the name of Rich Chapman. And they own a company called, Trend

Advertising. And so Red wanted to get out and, Rich asked me if I wanted to become a partner because he he was a sales guy and I was the production and art Key, so that's what he needed. And so I became a partner in trend advertising, which turned in

about 2 or 3 years later. We took on a guy by the name of Key. It came Simis Palmer Leckey, and then Leckey left, and then it became Palmer and Jarvis. And George Jarvis is still a friend of mine today after all these years, he's no longer in the business of course, but but that's how, Palmer Jarvis, started, and then I started growing the business across Canada. Tell so talk to me about that because I I was fascinated to see how you managed to put together that sort of very Western

group of agencies. But But I under from understanding, the financial engineering that was quite brilliant in terms of how you acquired these companies and and created, created this enterprise. Well, I I had, fortunate enough, we would we won the McDonald's business in, Vancouver, and we also won the Hudson May business in Vancouver. And, at that time, I got to know all of the operators in McDonald's across Western Canada, the same thing with

Hudson Bay Company. So I knew the general manager. She said, well, if you're Edmonton, I'll give you the business. And if you're in Calgary, we'll give you the business. And so what I did as I went along and I went in to say Edmonton, and I talked to John Leggett and the Hell of Leggett, which were running a company and a very good company, and then they said they got x amount of money revenue. And I said, well, I got the same amount. Why don't we

do a 50.50 due? So I was able to buy each and every one of the agencies in, Toronto not Toronto, but Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Victoria, and Regina, and all I did was trade the client's revenue. So I never paid a dick of nickel, not one nickel for every agency, but what we traded was accounts that they had and we had and put an agency together, which became a very, very good agency across Canada and, partners in all those companies, and I ended up owning about 57 or

60% of the total thing. And then the next parlay that you do is another quite creative engineering. When you decide you need a Toronto base and and a part of this probably more substantive. So share share with us that story because that's where you kinda go from being Yeah. Frank fully in control of to now putting an elephant in the room. Well, I I I was dealing with a few agencies in Toronto that were multinationals and headquartered in New York, and I started dealing with 1 or 2 of them.

And I wake I I went to New York to visit 1 of the agency, senior executives and, from Vancouver, it's about a 5 hour trip and, I love New York, by the way. And I got to the office and I feel it's pretty good because this guy's gonna come talk to me about my agency and, you know, I'm quite proud of what we have accomplished. And, he made me wait in the lobby for about half an hour, and he comes out looking at his watch, you

know, like this, and he's, go, hey, Frank. You know, that you for coming. You know, it's busy day. I got about 10, 15 minutes for you. I fly from Vancouver. You're buying my company. You got 10 minutes for me. Well, I made up in my mind, you know, what I was gonna do with a finger. I never I I just said that guy's never gonna buy my company. That end of Tony, but I did get even in a way, a number of years Chatter, that wasn't planned by Key, but I'll tell you about

that. So tell me about that before we go under the that move because to Key, it's like the Decca record guys turning down the Beatles because the world didn't need another guitar band. I mean, the how did you get even with somebody that it's arguably one of the most powerful and successful advertising people that's ever been minted in Canada? Yeah. Well, John John Wren, who was the president of Omnicom, and, I was working with, John Bradstock

and, and and, Keith Reinhart. And I went to New York to do the deal. But in this particular day, I was having a drink with John in the bar and I he said, hey, Frank. I'm meeting with so and so from this other advertising agency tomorrow. Would you like to, come to the meeting? Actually, oh, would I ever like to come to the meeting? And so I get to the meeting and I'm sitting there having a coffee with John and this individual walks in and he says, to the guy, he says,

Brian, you you might, remember Frank Palmer. And the guy looks at me like he, you know, you remember Frank? Oh, oh, yeah. Frank. You that bummer Jarvis. Yeah. Great. And, John looks at him and he says, to the guy Brian, I'm really bad you didn't buy his agency because he's making us nothing but money. And for me it was and for me it was like, John, thank you. I got even with that bastard. And so what did you how did you end up,

doing business with Omnicom? How did that all unpack? It was interesting because at that time, and you could do it with what they called a pooling of interest. You can't do it today. And what we did is put a value on our company right across, all offices, and I had 11 shareholders, 11 partners, and we did a deal or Omnicom stock. And so, we took the stock, and at that time, it it just been

$78 and it did a split and it went to 37. And so all the other shareholders are watching it because they couldn't trade for 60 days. They were nervous because it went up to 34, 35. And the minute it started moving up and they had the waiting period was over, they sold their stock. So pretty much everybody except one other individual and I kept our stock, and it went to, $65. So I ended up doing a bit better than I would have done

anyways. And what was it like for somebody that didn't deal with authority or wouldn't follow orders, if that from the police, when you're now go from having your hand firmly on the rudder of a business to there's other people that are gonna have influence? Well, it's it's funny because when we are with that, lunch, that Italian restaurant, Keith Keith Keith Reinhart is probably one of the and John Bradstock, both still friends, probably the nicest people in the world. And, Keith said to

me, Frank, you know why we wanna do this still? I said, well, you'd you'd like to take some of our cows to McDonald's. He said, no. Biggest reason is we wanna learn from you. I said, really? Learn from me and the little guy in Western Canada? No. No. We're a big company and but we'd like to learn from you. And and the thing for me was is they left me alone.

They didn't, come in and change anything. I mean, that they one thing you do have to do is make money for them, And we were doing okay because the biggest influence in these holding companies and the guys that drive it are not the people that are presidents. They're that it's the financial officer. They're the ones that drive the business. There's no kidding about that. And that the end of day, they made us better. They showed us ways of making more money and and

you know what? They they don't hold any prisoners. If they say, your numbers aren't your numbers that need to be, you you you that too many staff and this is what's gonna happen. You need to get rid of staff. And if you don't wanna do that, we'll do it for you. How how did I mean, just to give a lot of people in the audience probably I mean, I certainly saw your growth. You you that your peak, you had, like, 750 employees. You had Fargain All Cylinders. I think you had

3 different businesses. I mean, that's substantial growth from, you know, the kid from West that showed up in New York. They must have been just they must have learned a lot from you. Well, I I think I was a bit of a deal Matters, and I I can remember the day when, Le Bat's actually ended up, have to go from one agency to another and, the other agency that was handling it, in Toronto. And and I phoned the lady that was running the business

at that time. And I I phoned, LeBass people, and I said, David was running the business at the time. And I said, can we pitch your business? And he said, yeah. But he I said, what is it that you like best about your old agency that you can't have now because there's a conflict? He said, I like the staff. He said, I never would have changed agencies. So what I did, with their permission, I said, if I can hire the staff that ran that business, would you give me

the account or could we pitch it? He said, absolutely. So I asked for permission, to do that, and I ended up going out and I interviewed all the people that were working for the other agency and I heard 99% of them and I went and pitched the business that won it. Now I don't know why. It was just that it was in me to be able to do something that because as an artist, you're painting something and and I looked at it as you're painting a structure. And, we ended up winning the business and

it was probably one of the best clients we ever had. David Kinkade was the client at the time. David's a good friend. He's been on my podcast. He's in the Marketing Hall of Legends with you and I, and he's one of the most extraordinary clients. If we could mint clients like that, I think the industry would be in a very different position. Well, there there isn't

clients like that anymore as you and I know. In fact, that most of the industry is run by a lot of young people who wouldn't even did the damn about me. They'd look at me and say, well, I wanna talk to that old bird for. Yeah. Well, maybe there's something I can teach you. It's, so one of the things you wrote when you when your first book, I think it's Let's Get Frank. Right. You said, I wish these

I'd known these Three lessons when I was starting out. And part of that whole idea of Les's journey, Lessons in Leadership, is to share some of the great wisdom of people like you. So what were the Three lessons? Well, I think, I think one of them was stop trying so hard. I think in business that, you know, people try harder than and and and, you know, it's calling that doing

what's right doing what's right. And, you know, there's a client just out of curiosity, there was a client in my office the other day, and he was asking me about, doing his business. So I said, I'm gonna take this on myself, and I'm not gonna hire any creative people. I'm not gonna use my creative people. I'm just gonna use what I think is right for you because I've had experience in that area. And he said,

fine. That's great. So I come in and he he says to me, well, I I kinda like the slogan, but here's the slogan that, I think might be a bit better. And I says, what do you do for a living? He said, I'm a plumbing and heating guy. I said, well, I'm gonna come over to fix your plumbing and heating for you. How's that? And, he said, oh, is that the way it is? I said, yeah. I said, if either let me go to your doctor and the doctor tells you you got something wrong. And if you don't

believe him, then go do what you wanna do. So I said, either you do

what I wanna do or you don't do it at all because I don't wanna do it. I wanna do I wanna do stop trying to please everybody. You can't. There's too many agencies that will listen to what a client wants and they know it's wrong and they do it because they want the money and they've got no balls. And I tell you right now that the majority of the ceases set for the independence because the big guys

just don't they'll take the money and they'll do everything that's wrong. And the other one was, you know, if it doesn't feel right, don't do it. I mean, we all do it. I mean, I I have to admit that you I didn't do this overnight. I mean, you get to a point you need the money but, you know, now you kinda go, I don't wanna do it. It's not right. Doesn't feel right. It's not gonna make a difference. And I think, the other one that, you know, like in many cases, that the end of

the day, a lot of things don't matter. Doesn't matter. Come on. You know, few things in life contributed making you happy. I've written probably more, over you know, Tony, how these all things came about was I'd see somebody in the office and, I didn't like what that person was doing. And I didn't wanna confront that

person, him or her, personally, so I would write her frankly speaking. And it would go out to all the staff, 750 people, hoping that that one person would see it and change their ways. And so a young guy comes to me one day and he was doing the flyers for a client, you know, the flyers and and, and, I promoted him from a art director to a senior art director. So this individual decided that not doing flyers was below him. No. He wasn't gonna do flyers.

So at that time, both George and I had to sign paychecks in order for the cash it at the bank. So he gets his paycheck this day. There's one signature on it. It wasn't mine. So he goes to the bank. They wouldn't cash the check. So he comes to me and he says, you you forgot to get sign sign my check. I said, no. I don't do that anymore. He said, oh, the flyers. I said, yeah. The flyers. He started doing flyers again. You know? And, I mean, it was just

you know, people, they go along with they got a new title. Well, I don't have to do what I used to do. No. You got a raise and you got a title. You still have to do what you did. You're still an account guy, a cow person or girl. You still have to do it. No. Just because you got a title doesn't mean to say you're gonna do anything less or any of the you know? So it's just Slow down talent. Let's talk about it because

you were you've hired extraordinary people in your life. And I know from personal experience that the top talent can be very nomadic, always chasing the next thing or where am I gonna win the award? What was your strategy for keeping people? Did for how and even the people that left you are still so loyal and talk so so highly of that time they work with you. So what what's the

secret sauce? Yeah. Well, I I don't know if there was a secret sauce, but if you if you like talking to me right now, I think I'm a pretty down to earth guy, you know. I mean, I'll tell you if you're doing something right or doing something wrong. We we treated people properly. We paid them good money. I had fun with them. I was never a boss. I would I'm they know I'm the boss. I don't have to run around with a big stick. I'm the boss. Yeah. Here's what I'd like you to do. Well,

if you don't wanna do it, why? Well, explain to me. Okay. You're right. You don't have to do it. But you gotta know if you're a creative person I come from that creative, background, and creative people are very interesting people. They all wanna be, you know, wanna pat them on the back. They all need this little bit of, approval all the time. And and this is why award shows are being creative because they know that these creative people are all on cocaine or or

heroin. And at one point in time, our our our cost of doing creative awards were 500 plus dollars a year. And it got to the point where there's a new award show, and and they're gonna enter it. So I, practical joker, created the 1st international creative show that you not only won a trophy but you won money. And I took a website, I took the marketing or strategy website, and I changed it to make sure that it was the biggest show ever, and you're gonna win 1,000 of dollars.

And then I phoned Rupert Brendon who was running the Key that the time and said, hey. There's this new award show out there. What is it? Well, look at it. They given money out. Of course, he searched it up, couldn't find it. And I knew Chatter soon as anybody saw that, they're gonna enter the award show. And I was gonna get a whole bunch of money because there was never award show. Well, he figured it out and found out that

it was me playing the practical joke. And I and I said, well, the reason I'm doing it is because I know that every award show, these guys are gonna enter. So what we ended up doing in the agency was putting a limit of a percentage on what you could. So if you couldn't go better than 500,000, well, we wanna go on the new show. Well, what are you gonna cancel then? Was the only way I could do it. You know, you remind me of your pranks. I mean, there's a great story

of George Clooney. He's a great prankster and Yep. He's on the set with Brad Pitt and Ocean 11. And he got seamstress every day to take Brad Pitt's pants in by 1 eighth of an inch. And by the by the time the week was over, you know, Brad Pitt was they stopped stopped eating on set because he thought he was just gaining his way. And you're legendary for your pranks. I mean, you're right up

there. What do you have a I know you have 100, but is there one that really stands out that you still when you think about it, gives you that taco? I had a a deal in the office where, a guy, bought a brand new hat and, like a bowler, you know. And, I I knew where the he got the hat. He got it at a downtown hat store. So what I did was, I went down and we bought about 5 we just borrowed. We said, can we, you got so and so came in

here for a hat. Can do you have any smaller sizes? He said, yeah. What do you want? I said, well, I want about 6 smaller sizes. He said, why? I said, well, I'll bring your hats back. I wanna have a joke. He said, what are you gonna do? I said, you know, I would say it was you, Tony. I'd say, Tony, are you okay? Why? You you don't look you look swollen. You look swollen. Are you you okay? And so what we what we do is we change the size of your that. And, and so you put the

hat on, it wouldn't be up here. And the next day I say, you know, I know you didn't look any good yesterday, but are you okay? You okay? And the hat would be up here. So eventually, the hat was sitting on top of the head. The guy thought he was getting swollen. I mean, you you know, I start crying now because it you know? And then the other one that I did, I have a little, called a remote. It's a a universal remote. So I'm in the restaurant that I go in, and there's a

TV set here, and there's one over here. And so I'm having breakfast and then looking at the news and I go, turn the TV off. And that guy looks at TV and he goes over to set it up and I take the thing and I go over here and I set turn off the other one, and he looks like he's over there. By the name he's over there, I turned off the other one. So I did it about 5 or 6 times, and he calls the IS guy up, our IT guy up. That guy comes up, sets them all up again. He said, you should you

should be good now. Soon as he walked out, I turned it off again. I came clean, but, but, you know, I I I live for a practical joke, but I don't plan the practical joke. They just come to me. You know, it's just all part of the culture. I wanna also talk, you know, I talked about someone who have a great character and there's I wanna spend a little bit of time on 2 topics that you have so

passionate about. Mentorship and NAVS. So Let's start with NAVS, the National Advertising Benevolent Society, cofounded by you. Why why did you decide to put a real shoulder behind creating something that would be there for when maybe a job wasn't there? Well, we had, a number of employees that suffered from, mental illness or somebody who had

an accident. We had a young lady that, horseback riding, fell off a horse, broke her neck, and, of course, they, you know, that was her life and, and Nabs, which I knew about, and and and wanted to help bring it to Western Canada, and I did. And I've stuck with Nabs. In fact, they have a golf tournament out here, at least they call the Frank Palmer Nabs International Golf Tournament, which we still

support to this day. But it there's what a lot a lot of young people don't understand is this world has changed and it's changed more so than ever before. So NABS is more important today than it was maybe 25 years ago because our industry is changing, and everybody thinks when they get into it, they're gonna be there forever. They're not. And in fact, a lot of them might not either get in the business or they might be in the business for 2 years

because, you know, AI is changing our world again. And, so there's NAPS needs more money than ever before. So it was just something I felt very, I mean, but I'm blessed in the business because I've been able to stay in it probably longer than I should. But I've been in the business for a number of years, so NAPS was very important to me. And I I created these podcasts that, I interview various individuals, in the industry, and I hope that it would make a difference

so young people would say, look. We're gonna contribute to that. So I just wish the industry would contribute, you know, contribute more, which they don't. But I wanna talk about mentorship. American Marketing Association, mentorship's one of their pillars. They really believe this exchange of intellectual and emotional, currency that happens when somebody, that's been around a season with somebody young.

Been a big part of your life as well, and you continue to do that with your ad chats and everything else. Do we have enough mentorship in this industry? And if not, what do we need to do to get more of instead of that being, oh, that's an old person being, no, that person has immense experience and that currency is of immense value? Yeah. I I think that, there's not

enough mentors going around. I had a couple of mentors. I had, Ron Marcoux, who was the president of McDonald's, and I had, another gentleman that ran Vickers and Benson at one time and, there was less things I didn't know being a young punk, you know, 40 years of age and did you ever did you ever figure this out? And I would sit in front of him and say, this guy is pushing me around. I don't get it. I just don't get it. I'm the boss. He's pushing around. And they'd say, he's challenging

you. What do you mean? I'm the boss. No. He's challenging. Really? You think that's what it is? Yeah. So the point was is that I'd learned something from from other individuals who were, you know, 25 years or 30 years older than Key. And I think the problem today is young people think that they're gonna get experience from other young people. Well, they're not.

And you know who many people run agencies today. The majority of the agencies today that are at the top of the ladder in whether it's Toronto, is on changing it's changing all the time. And a lot of the people that were in the industry when when I was in, they're gone, and they're they're not there. And and their their mentorship is is disappeared, and they're being run by people who are afraid for their jobs because they may end up losing them

shortly if if business doesn't go their direction. So mentorship is probably more important than ever. And, I mean, I'm still talking to people that work for me on a regular basis. They call me and say, hey, Frank. That did you do during this? I go, here's what I did. Oh, that's great. I never thought of that. So for Key, ment mentoring young people, is still very important. And I I still look for mentors. You've been very vocal at the quality of advertising that's

being created. And I and and I think you do so in a way to try to elevate the clients to chase better creative and, obviously, the agencies to be capable of doing that. But what's caused the this condition? And and what what needs to change? Well, I think that there's strong leadership in an agency and and strong opinions are working with clients that, just wanna get the thing done and and, are not willing to think about what they're put into

an ad. In fact, they have is there's an old line about £10 or whatever in a 2 pound bag. And I think that clients today are asking for too much information and you skip the ads. I mean, there's so many ads on television and on radio that just go right by you because you don't listen to them. And and another example of that is the the ads that used to be done for Budweiser were fantastic that were done by DDB and and Bud Light and and Super Bowl ads that

you look forward to or the Coke Pepsi challenge. And today, you don't see much of that. You got so much copy. You don't listen to it. And and, for Key, as agencies give it up and take in the money. That's basically what it is. And if you don't do it, I'll get another agency that will. I mean, you look at what's happening in some of the telcos. They change agencies every 2 years, and they don't look at themselves as being the person this wrong.

You know, we just had an example happen where a client, decided to pitch their business on that December 23rd Yeah. And made a change weeks later. So Tony people are you know, the the conspiracy theory, it was it was a a preordained change and a move. What that can our industry do to push back at clients and say, this is about partnership, this is about collaboration, this is about co creation versus, you know, that sort of master servant relationship that seems to,

to be, you know, creeping all over the place. Yeah. Well, I had relationships, partnerships with McDonald's, the Hudson's Bay Company. We would socialize. We would become friends. We dined together. We drank together. We traveled together. Doesn't happen today.

Then there's none of that. There's none of there may be the odd the odd, client that looks at that, but quite frankly, too many too many clients gotta get out of the boardroom and back into doing what they need to do, and they give their responsibility to a marketing person who doesn't have the experience, and they just wanna get a job done, and there's no relationship at all. And then you have a

relationship. If I have a relationship with you and I know what you like, I'm gonna buy that particular brand of, coffee or booze and here's a bottle of Chivas. I know you like it. But if you don't know what a person likes, you're not gonna be able to satisfy them, and that's just the way it is. And too many agencies are willing to take the money and not give the client what they deserve and hear need to hear because they're afraid to tell them that lose the

business. And I go, oh, you're gonna lose it anyways. One of the words we touched on a bit is is says risk or fear. And why do you think this industry is at a point where they're more worried about losing a client versus having a sensational appetite to build that client? I I it could be a number of reasons, but for me, I was always able to say what I wanted to say in front of a client Chatter

they believed it or not. The fact is I would push for it and and I'd say, I you know, trust me that I'm your your your physician or doctor that that I've I've been in this business long enough to know that if you do the following, it's gonna be good for you. And I think that today's advertising agencies are too worried to offend the client because the clients thinks they're right, and they're not willing to risk on what you have to say or your

experience. And I go, well, this is what I've done for a living all my life, and and, you know, I'm telling you what you should do, and then you confirm me if you don't. I had a client that's it told me that at one point in time, I used that swear word. I said, said, if you don't like what I'm doing, just go to, you know, go screw yourself. And and the client was really testing me to see whether or not I was,

you know, telling that. And I said, yeah. This is what you should do. And then from that point on, the client went with everything I did and everything I said. And I don't think there's enough guts for a lot of people running agencies today to do that. I think they're too afraid of losing the money.

End of story. And the second thing is I noticed that in my watch that it seemed like overnight Matters went from having budgets to spend, And with that, there was always an appetite for risk to now having budgets to invest and data and wanting to know, you know, research and wanting to make sure that everything was lined up. You know, you'd bring that a big idea instead of buying going, wow, what can we do with it? It's like,

how much is it gonna cost? Is it gonna work? Do you think that that this whole consumed by data is is also taking away some courage? Oh, absolutely. I think that data is used, as somebody's excuse for not taking any risk at all. I mean, the fact is the clients that I've come across that say, well, we're not quite sure about this or not sure about that. They think we need more research. We need to do that, and I go, basically, you're afraid of your

job. You're afraid of taking a risk on your job. You want this information so if it doesn't go quite in the right direction, you can say, well, research said. No. You're gutless. You know, I mean the best campaigns in the world basically are for come from creative people that they didn't do any research. They just knew that it's gonna work. And and and today, they they basically, that's I understand there has to be a bit of

that. But the fact is that there's too much of that and you get bland advertising and 99% of advertising is bland, period. Would Three Ford say if we asked the consumer what they wanted, they would have said a faster horse? Yeah. Right. Yeah. I know. I know. But, I mean, it's like, what ads today can you actually see on TV or ads that you hear that you pay any attention

to? Very few. So marketers that are coming up, young marketers, what advice can you give them so that they can change the status quo and they can be have be bolder and more have more courage and in doing so, earn their paycheck because they're building a brand, they're creating equity, they're engaging, they're enlightening, as opposed to just putting

something out there saying, look, I did a a campaign. Well, it's a very good question because if you're a young marketer and you're getting a job working, well, first of all, if there's a telco in Canada, it's a young marketer in there that would take chances, which they don't. And unfortunately, what happens is that, the agency doesn't take any responsibility for anything. They blame their advertising agency to change

creative records or or change every 2 years. But the point is is that for young people they have to learn to have some courage and and and go with that they believe is correct And, I just think that's the one thing that they should do, but, you know, they're nervous about it. I mean, I could always remember all my life I said, well, I think this is the right thing to do. Let's give it a shot. But

most clients aren't willing to do that. Frank, you were your your personal brand, when I got in the business, what Frank Palmer said, everybody paid attention to, not just to Key, Strategy Magazine, Marketing Magazine. And that's one

of the things I learned from was as you sort of, as you sort of had other abilities and grew your business, I saw an opening to start putting my opinion out and it did a lot for me. Is personal branding still an important way for someone to build their career or if they happen to own an agency

to build their agency? Not talking less about what they do today in terms of a brand or a campaign and much more about where the industry's heading and putting a point of view out there that says, this is where I think we should go together. Well, I you know, Tony, you were you're a brand, and I knew about you, and I knew about a number of other people in the industry that were brands that were running advertising agencies.

And quite frankly, when you look at those agencies that had names on the door that were around and Three, very successful, the individual that was running the agency was a bit of a character. You know, you Takeaways LeVaugh for example, you know, that agency is not the same as it was, you know, Rob Gennett runs it today and he's a bit of a character, but when you take a look at the agencies that are run by characters, they're very strong individuals, they were good at what

they did and they were listened to. And that and very few of those agencies are out there today. They're, Three I say, there's a handful. But the rest of the agencies, and I mean, the big ones that are run by multinationals, there's no personality running them. They're gone. It I I I we can't leave this interview without talking about the title of your latest book, which I'd love you to be out in the world. Just just share with us the title and what

motivated you to write it. Well, my dad and I, would from the time I was 6 or 7 years of age, would walk to the movie Chatter. And, at the movie theater, he'd buy Key, you know, some Lifesavers or butterscotch Lifesavers, which are still my favorite. And on the way home, we'd stop off at a little convenience store and he'd buy a brick of ice Three. And at that time, it was a brick, like a brick, like a butter brick.

And he'd slice it open like this and fold it down, and he'd cut off a slice of the ice cream for me, whether it was Neapolitan or chocolate or vanilla, a little slice about the size of a cheese slice, and he'd eat the rest of the ice cream all by himself. So he had 95% and I had 5%. So if I wanted some more, that wasn't Three. And then that would take me next Saturday and do the same thing again. Now you gotta imagine doing this from 6 years of age until about 12. It was torture. So

my father was in the hospital. Unfortunately he was dying of leukemia and I said to dad I'm really upset with you. And he said why? I said because you ate all the damn well, I didn't say damn, I said, you ate all that ice cream. And he said, what are you talking about? So I told him the Tony, and I said it was torture. So I told you I had, I wasn't sure when I was gonna call the book and then, you know, Frank's lessons. And I said, you know what? People say

to me, where do you get that name from? God, I love that name. I love the name of the book. Book, and I thought I was never gonna get it published, but they did publish it. So that came about from my dad eating all ice cream and torturing me for about 6 years. Can you at least hold up the title? Because you people are gonna be having to to realize that. Yeah. My dad ate all the ice

cream. So, Frank, I mean, we've covered so much ground today, but some lessons lessons that you could I mean, you've built brands, you've built careers, you've built your own business. What are 2 or 3 real Frankisms that we could take away that people listening would say, if I applied some of that to my life, maybe I'd be sitting there looking looking at my 50 year career and knowing that

it's still growing. Well, I I I'm not sure if I wouldn't be able to give you 3 or 4 of that, but I think even to this day that you, I practice being nice. I practice being, responsible. I go out of my way to help people, if I can help you. I'm not looking for anything. And, I'm always there to be able to share any information that people ask me about. So it's really and I and I still love what I do, not as much as I used to because our world has changed. But for me, it's that,

how can I help you? And I have, you know, people call me all all the time all the time. In fact, Chris Staples and I, used to work for me are having lunch tomorrow. He called me. Let's go for lunch. I mean, that that transfer of creativity and energy and storytelling is just it seems so simple, but it's really doesn't exist other than, as you said, if you you you're

open to these conversations. Used to. But then when you look at the people that are running the, agencies, I think it still exists in cert I think there's about without mentioning their names, there's still about 5, so independent agencies in Toronto that are are substantial that, and and and, eventually, they're either gonna sell or they're gonna sell for

their staff. And the problem is with the industry now, especially with the small industries, small agencies that I've I've I've said to them, here's the area. Three can ask we're part of a network called TCAN and TCAN has about 25 to 30 agencies in small across Canada. They're all agencies that do, you know, anything under 5 or $6,000,000 in revenue. And they asked me to come out to talk to the group and they said we're talking about succession. And I said, well, you it's too late.

And they said, well, what do you mean it's too late? I said, well, if you're 50 or 60 and you have an advertising agency in Winnipeg or Regina or Ottawa, there's no large agency that's gonna buy your company anymore. Those days are gone. I mean, they've they've they've passed. There may be the odd agency that might be bought and Toronto, but quite frankly, those days are pretty much gone too. And I said, you wanna hear the second part of it

that you don't wanna hear? They said, what? The only people that are gonna buy your agency are the staff, and there's a problem. What's the problem? They have no money. Yeah. You're You're gonna sell your agencies to the staff and they're gonna get sell it to them for nothing because they don't have any money. But that's your only way that's your only exiting today. So when I exited the company, the that business was so much different. So what people don't

really understand is our world has changed. It's not the same as it was. Now is it gonna be better or worse? Time will tell. But right now, I still enjoy it, and I come to work every day. I was the first person here at 7 o'clock in the morning getting ready for you, but it's if I wasn't, I'd still here around 7, 7:30. And the whole thing has changed again as COVID changed

our world forever because people are working from home. And the one thing I will say in the interview is you cannot build a culture for any advertising company or client or anything else working from home. I I I was talking to my niece, and she was so excited that she found a job where they allow remote working. And I says, terrific. What an opportunity. Get in the office every day. She goes, what do you mean? They they I said, no. Your competitors, people that are going after

the next job, are gonna be home looking at a screen. You're gonna be in the office every morning. That you're gonna the boss is gonna see you when they walk in. That's how early you should be in there. And Key don't think it's it's beneath you to bring a coffee and sit down and ask, would you mentor Key? Or I've got a question. Is there anything else I can do? Take advantage of the fact that that that everybody else is asleep and you're awake.

And it was so hard to get it through her because to me, yeah, but the commute and the travel and the transit, so then you're not your longevity is gonna be limited because technology is always gonna be faster, better, and cheaper that transactions, but never a transformation. So if you're not part of the transformation of the business, got out of the way. Anyway, so I I'm curious what you said about AI, which I love. AI is not gonna take away your job, but if you don't use AI, you

won't have a job. And I love you to just on on the back of the book. That's what's on the back of the book. And I I wrote that because, I've done I've used AI, you know, chat. And I come to it and I've written a plot for a movie or a plot for a concept, and I type it into AI, chat GPT, and I go, my goodness. Wow.

That even made it better than what I sound it like. So the fact of the matter is is that your AI is not gonna come up with its own creative thoughts or process, but if you don't use it, it will replace people in the industry for sure because and and I wrote a plot for a movie, and the movie was called Robin Hoods. And and, Robin Hood was the the sheriff of Nottingham that stole from, people to give to the rich. And I the Robin Hoods today is the industry and and people that are

politicians that are taken from the poor for themselves. And so I put the plot into into into that gpt and she wrote my movie for me. So I gotta tell you, I mean, it's not good for everything, but it's it's it's gonna take over and and do a lot of things for the industry. And if you don't use it, you're silly because it's gonna help you keep your job. You know, Frank, I always close my show with my Three takeaways. And the first one is, as I said upfront, you're not just a character, but

you have immense character. And that's you don't often see that together because characters like to stand out, but people with immense character like to stand for, and you is the importance of having courage and conviction. Even as a young individual that you have to have a voice, Just nodding and saying yes, is just a definite way to hold

on to a job or hold on to a client. But the third thing, and I think is a great lesson for all the clients out there, is instead of blaming the agency or instead of getting so layered in research that sort of just protect your territory, be bold and mighty forces will follow. This, this Canada is, we punched outside our weight class because we have the ability to do beautiful and big

things like you've done your entire career. So great lessons in character and character, having that sense of courage and conviction and not being afraid to, to be bold and to do extraordinary things. So for all of that and more, Frank Palmer

that been an absolute delight to having you on, on this, on Chatter that matters and these lessons in leadership, with the American Marketing Association. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. And, anytime you wanna chat, please please just call. 2,008, something very special happened to me. I was inducted into the Canada's Marketing Hall of Legends. It's one of the proudest moments of my career because my family was Three, one of the proudest moments of my life. You see

in this call are people that have put a dent in the marketplace. We have visionaries who came up with ideas. We have business builders that not only established their brand in Canada, but around the world. With stewards of brands who found a way to engage the head and heart and hands of the consumer and the media. We have leaders and creators who've built campaigns that dance all over media. This is more than the hall of legends. If you think about it, it's the hall of learning. Imagine

the intellectual resource that exists within it. The lessons in life, the journey, the overcoming circumstances, the tight ropes, the way they reinvented and reimagined the world. The American Marketing Association's Toronto chapter came up with this idea of curating this learning. And what they've done is they've created that lessons journey, lessons in leadership. We're gonna take some of the people that are in this call, spend some time interviewing them, draw out what they bring, not only

to your livelihood, but ideally to your life. So thank you for being part of lessons in leadership and the legends journey. It's Tony Chapman. Thanks for listening. Let's chat soon.