One of my proudest moments in life is when I bought my first home. It was on Strathmore Boulevard in Toronto. Cost me a $110,000. I had to do everything in my power to cobble together enough of a down payment, but I can tell you that every day I walked in that home, every day I put my key in my lock, even with the drafty windows, a furnace held together with duct tape, it didn't matter because it was my house. And I grew up at a time when owning a home was part of the Canadian
dream. A promise made and a promise kept. Get a good education, work hard, and home ownership was something that was both desirable and feasible. But today, when I talk to people in their twenties thirties, they say, why bother even trying to save? I might as well just live now and live for the day. Owning a home is no longer something I can afford to do. And I think that's not only sad, it's something we need
to change. Now Maslow's hierarchy of needs, theory of motivation talks about the most important thing we chase as humans is safety and security, a roof over our head, and if we're one of the fortunate ones, a roof that we own. Home ownership may be growing increasingly out of reach for many Canadians. It's pretty expensive around here. Definitely not thinking of buying because we won't be able to afford that. They've already abandoned the dream of owning a single family home amid rising real
estate prices. Just with cost of living and other expenses. It's just it's really hard to get a mortgage. It feels like I can't run on the hamster wheel fast enough. Today, I wanna bring 3 guests to open our minds to ways in which we can again unlock the Canadian dream. Callum MacKay is a young man in Vancouver, living in a 1 bedroom apartment with his wife $2,700 a month, and they were about to start a
family, so had to find somewhere else to live. Callum shares the gauntlet he had to run through, the wet cement, and how he approached bureaucracy and even the banks, not with a sledgehammer, but with a heart. It was amazing what, how empathetic people were when you were able to get them on the phone. Next Brad Bradford is a Councillor I admire in Toronto, came out of the city planning office, and he says we have to
change the bureaucracy. We need some leadership change. We need a different type of politics, and we need to create a culture of yes. And finally, Leah Robinson from RBC and how her team has put together some innovative solutions for people that own a home to do more with it. So that families and communities
can live, live a bit differently. I hope that by listening to Calum, Brad, and Leah, that we, in fact, open our minds to the possibility that the Canadian dream of affordable housing within a city like Vancouver or Montreal or Toronto is still something that has great possibility. Hi. It's Tony Chapman. Thank you for listening to Chatter That Matters presented by
RBC. If you can, please subscribe to the podcast. And ratings and reviews, well, they're always welcome, and they're always appreciated. Joining me now is Calum MacKay. He's someone that pursued the Canadian dream of owning a home, but to do so, he had to apply some great creative thinking, had the help of his family, and even then probably had to move a few mountains. Calum, welcome to Chatter That Matters. Thanks for having me, Tony. I look
forward to, to exploring this with you. Give me a sense of how old you are, your family situation, and then we'll move into the, to pursuing the Canadian dream of home ownership. Turned 31 on, Thursday of last week. 5 month old at home right now and married my wife about 2 years ago now. I was lucky enough that, she had a home in the family. It was a family home. As we started doing our family planning, as one does in their in their late twenties and early
thirties, We started exploring what our options were. Married for a couple years. Were you renting at the time? Yep. Renting at the time. At the time, I was working downtown in the city when we first, got together and then obviously COVID happened. I went to a fully remote job. So, we decided to, you know, move into a place that had a, a den, which at the time in 2020 seemed, you know, we were paying a little bit extra. I think my rent was $2,700
a month, which was not cheap. And it was the best, one of the best decisions I've ever made because I spent, countless hours in that, in that little 5 foot 5, 7 foot class box. As your family situation changes and you've got a beautiful 5 months at home to, prove it, obviously, your how we're gonna live and where we're gonna live starts factoring into your decision. We,
certainly knew at the location that we were in a great location. I live in Vancouver, very central to everything that was going on, and we knew that we weren't going to be able to afford to live in that area. So, we started expanding our search. And, for those who, been in the real estate market area in Vancouver, it's a it's a big challenge. So slowly, we realized we were looking further and further out of the city. So you got $27100 you're paying in
rent. So, you know, that is some substance when you're starting to look at purchasing a house. But even with that kinda income, what I understand is you realize that you'd have to be a little bit more creative than just trying to put up a down payment in that rent if you're gonna get a a home that you wanted in a place that you wanted. Absolutely. It wasn't necessarily the cash flow that was the problem. It was the down payment. You know, my wife and I, we were lucky enough that I, had
had graduated with with no debt out of university. You know, I had my parents had done a great job of setting me up for success. I had a good career and, even still just kind of living in Vancouver, getting sort of putting aside money every month to slowly afford a, a down payment felt like a climbing a mountain. To me, I remember walking into my first house and feeling
like I'm an adult. I'm on my way. Instead of paying rent, paying myself in terms of that mortgage will eventually turn into a house I own. Has that impacted, do you think, your generation that in terms of that expectation? Has it changed the way you sort of think and feel and behave when it comes to homeownership?
My generation is extending its twenties. Homeownership seems so far out of reach that you may as well enjoy your life while you're while you're young, and there was no point in really saving, because it felt like the amount that you needed for a down payment was so insurmountable, that I think a lot of people in my generation, especially if they aren't already starting a family, if you're just single and you're living, your, like, owning isn't even on
your radar. You're just, for a lot of people, putting a little bit of money aside, living paycheck to paycheck, and there's a lot of fun things to do in
Vancouver. It's pretty easy to spend money. And so as your family situation changed and you started expanding your universe and you started looking at different markets, you found a very creative way to get into the homeownership, and that's the story I'd love you to share because to me, what used to be a perfectly paved speedway in terms of, you know, my twenties and my early thirties of buying a home requires a lot of resourcefulness,
requires some creativity. In your case, as you said, time in and time out when you're doing the pre interview, a lot of luck. It absolutely starts with luck. I had a solid family foundation. My parents were able to, you know, give me a great upbringing and, you know, really teach me the value of, you know, saving. And I would also say
discipline, you know, knowing that it might not be possible today. It might not be possible tomorrow, but just because you can't do something now doesn't mean that you shouldn't be shouldn't be trying for something bigger in the future. As I sort of migrated into that sort of later twenties of my life, as we started doing a lot of this research, my pay my parents, I was lucky enough, were able to, you know, help me out with, you know, we were planning on buying a condo
at Port Moody. We're, we're planning on putting a down payment down on a condo. As we started doing more research, we kept coming back to this house that my wife's family had. It was great. It was a great place for her family to be able to live. We had an aunt and an uncle, and at times, different members of the family in their twenties, whether they were in between jobs or at school, they would go rent out a room in the house. It was honest. It was like a little catchall. My
wife and my brother-in-law were on the title of this house. My brother-in-law is is also 30 years old my age. My wife is 2 years older than me, and we were all sitting here thinking, you know, what are we going to do here? None of us owned anything, in terms of property. So we started doing more research into what we could do with this place. Was it sell it? Was it move in? It was an older home, built in the, I believe, the sixties. It was not a big home. I think it was around 1200 square
feet. The more research we did, and actually by chance, we saw that there was a builder on our street who had actually just built 2 duplexes, similar homes, similar lot sizes. And these, these homes look great. And so we kind of got in our heads, what if we did a duplex? What if we, you know, we came in together, you know, use the money that my family was gonna give us for the down payment to sort of finance the, the construction, of this
home. Another just key part of this that we were quite lucky with was there was only around 380,000 left on the mortgage of this home in Vancouver, which from a loan to value perspective, when you start looking at borrowing against the house, it did us a lot of favors in being able to get financing to be able to afford the construction, or so we thought. So, what's the
or so we thought point of this story? So, we had a home, we had the help from the family, and we thought we were going to be able to borrow against the outstanding value in the home, to be able to finance the rest of this, this project. All in, the build was gonna take roughly $1,000,000 Let's let's use that as a as a placeholder. It was a little bit less than that. We were lucky enough that this builder that we did find on the street, we interviewed a couple, he was by
far the best fit, came in at a low rate. We had got a chance to meet the guy. We had had a chance to the builder, and we had had a chance to talk to a few of his other clients who had built homes in the area. And everything came up very positive. So it was a
big gamble. We went in with this guy. We we signed a contract. And thinking that we were going to be able to easily finance this, what we realized as we very late on in the process was that we were going to have to sign a document with the city and the bank acknowledging that if anything, if any codes were to be broken, essentially, if there was anything wrong in the building process or we weren't, you know, doing our due diligence as, as a homeowner of the property, that the city could fine us
and the money essentially would go to the city first instead of the bank. For those of you who are familiar with mortgages, essentially, the city gets put in front of the bank. Bank doesn't like that. Turns out that's not how the bank sees it. The bank came back to us and said, you have 2 options. You either finance this entire project on a construction mortgage through the bank at prime plus 2%, which at the time was like 9 a half percent interest, which was going to be a
nightmare. And for those of you who are familiar with, you know, building, construction loans, there is a lot of administration that goes into this. It extends the length of the project and it involves, essentially inspectors, from the, from the bank coming and inspecting the various stages of the, of the build as we go through the construction phases. So the other option outside of the construction mortgage was, hanging out the mortgage and financing this completely on our own, which is
the only option that we were really able to take. Fortunately, I had an aunt who was able to loan me the money to be able to pay out the mortgage. Even the city, it was so new, this this covenant that I had to sign to to get the city to acknowledge that we were building was only less than a year old. So even my mortgage broker didn't really understand the implications of this. So it was a lot of uncertainty. There wasn't a lot of information online to be able to look up
about this. There was a lot of just phoning city hall, try and figure out, is there any way to get around this? And it turns out, there wasn't. So Why do you think the city, given that they're so the rhetoric is least about let's build more homes, why do you think they would
impose this? Like, what what was their motivation? Because, I mean, adding months to a construction project or even worse people just saying it's just not worth the hassle is not in the best interest of the city or the people. It's certainly in the best interest of the banks. Why is it in the best interest of the banks? I mean, to me, they don't wanna be put they don't want the city ahead of them. It's in the best interest of the banks because previously the banks didn't necessarily have to
be notified that someone was building. Theoretically, right? If we weren't lucky enough to be able to have families to pay out the mortgage and completely finance the project, we would have gone back to the bank and given them an $30,000 in interest over a year. The momentum now you've bought the property out, is it now perfectly paved? The cities, everybody's falling in line, or did you continue to just deal with bureaucracy and sort of cement? Once we had the clean
title, it was a weight off of our shoulders. We were fortunate that, the builder had a nice gap within his building schedule. Construction began, within 2 weeks of us getting that that, notice of title. We were all ready to go. The family had moved out of the house. I'd say the next hiccup we had was selecting our appliances. I learned at the point of, of the essentially building, we're only
able to get 200 amps service into the house. And with the recent rule changes by the city, we had to put in 2 electric car charging ports in our garage. This was going to greatly impact the amount of draw that potentially our house was under at full load. So let's say you're running your fridge, your oven, your AC, everything at the same time, including the 2 car charging ports, we only had
a limited amount of power that we could use. And the only alternative to this was to put in a massive transformer in one of our backyards, and it was gonna cost anywhere between 20 to $40,000 for BC Hydro to come in and do this. And it was gonna potentially extend the timeline of the build by 9 months. And this was, like, very last minute that we found this out. And that to me was shocking because the city wants you to do more with, you know,
essentially build more units on the same amount property. That's what everybody's trying to do is, you know, how do we, you know, take the land base that we have now and build, you know, as many homes as we can, to, to, to kind of support growing families. And this to me was been the exact opposite of that. How do you stay normal with
all of this? To me, that's just like we want more people living on the same lot, but at the same time, we're gonna limit the amount of electricity you get and force you to carve out a big chunk of it for car charging. Like, it's just a is it just different departments not talking to each other? Or It's a clash between the environment and sustainable, you know, sustainable growth and housing. Those two things, at times, it seems like, aren't running in parallel. Those
oppose each other. I would think that the city would be interested in, you know, incentivizing people to do more with their properties. How much of your success has been this ability, first of all, with your family members to do the initial research and you just being tenacious and persistent versus just saying this isn't worth it. Yeah. There were absolutely times that we wanted to quit, but having a child is a great motivator. I will tell you that. All of a sudden, it wasn't
about, you know, just me. It wasn't about my level of stress or my level of happiness. I was now I had something else to think about. You know, it was really just sort of putting your head down. There were definitely some stressful times, but I really could see the end. I could see, and I could visualize being in a home with my wife and my son, my brother-in-law having a home. I was very lucky I had my parents and my dad to, to go to for a lot of advice. I'm a salesperson, in my
career. I'm a pretty resourceful person. I'm not afraid to call people and demand answers. That would be my advice to everybody is make yourself human. Don't email, call whenever you can. You know, when you can get another person on the other line of the phone that realizes that you're just another guy with a family who's trying to do the best for himself, it was amazing what how empathetic people were when you were able to get them on the
phone. Where are you today? Because when we talked, I mean, the one thing that said, it's almost like it was all worth it because now you've got your home. I'm still pinching myself every day. You know, my wife and I are homeowners in Vancouver in a brand new home. We are not millionaires. You know, I do not make a ton of money. Now I'm at the point where we get to host family. You know, I've got my father-in-law staying with me. He's here
with his wife from Hong Kong. We had my parents come and stay with us when my son was born. To make matters even more interesting, we moved a month after my son was born. So the my son was born April 10th, and we moved into this home on April 17th. And all of the, you know, going and visiting the house and essentially getting the final sign off with the builder that, you know, we were able to move in all happened when my son was either just being born or a couple weeks old.
So maybe this will hopefully encourage others to to, you know, think outside of the box and to really do some research into trying to figure out how to build, you know, a multifamily house. These things are possible. You took a a lot that had a bungalow on it, I guess, in a in a basement suite. Where are you today? We have a front front back duplex. I'm in the front unit with my with my wife and my son, 3 bedrooms. My brother-in-law has the back unit. He's in a 3 bedroom unit as
well. He is, actually renting his his unit out right now. He plans to move in there, you know, when he gets closer to to having a family and such. And we have, my niece living in our our rental suite below our house. So it's really interesting that not only have you creatively solved this and financially solved this, you actually have an opportunity to create, a life with
family all around you. We're very blessed to be able to, get to this point, and we're very lucky to be able to, you know, get to share in our good fortunes with, with both sides of our family. Must feel something special when you put that key in the lock, and it and it opens, and you open that door, and you go, this is mine. It's nice to just be able to walk out of the front door and be outside.
I'd lived in a building for a very long time. Even just sitting out, having my coffee on my steps in the morning is joy that I don't know if it'll ever get old. So, Calum, I always end with my 3 takeaways. And the first one was just, you know, you talk about how fortunate you are with the family that you have and the family that you inherited. And I think one of the most important lessons they gave you is a sense of financial literacy.
And even if you can't do something today, you can save to do it tomorrow. And I think that's just a great lesson in life for all of us to think about. I think your insight in terms of extending your 20s when we lose sight of that long term dream, and I'm seeing that with people that go, I'll never be able to afford retirement, so why not live for today? I think it's important that we remind ourselves that,
you know, there is a tomorrow and it will come. And then the final one, which I think is one of the most beautiful lessons I've heard is make yourself human. You know, in a guy your age that's got Reddit and the world with an arms reach of desire, you understand the importance of picking up a phone and connecting with somebody that might have his own family or her own family and then decides they wanna be part of solving your problem versus you becoming their problem. I think it's just a it
is an extraordinary lesson for all of us to, to take away as well. I guess the the last point I'd make is, you know, as you said, there's lots of bumps along the road. Try not to get lost in those smaller things. Those challenges will happen. Remember, if you know, your little wall, I'd call it the walled garden, right? It was this end state that I had in mind and I wasn't gonna let anything sort of pull me away from that. And there are
times that are hard. Luckily, I have a supportive family and a very supportive wife to, to get through all of it. I'm so happy that you joined and shared your story with such honesty. And one day when I'm in Vancouver, you could host me for, for a cold one. Absolutely. I got, 2 chairs sitting out on the patio right now. We're happy to have you. I consider affordable housing to be the biggest problem facing Canada in the next decade. Everybody deserves a
roof over their head. And there's so much complexity to this, so don't go away. Because when we come back, I have Brad Bradford, who I consider one of the most progressive city councilors that I've come across, talk about what cities must do to make this reality happen. And then Leah Robinson from RBC talking about what her bank is doing to ensure that affordable housing is a matter of choice, not chance.
Hi. It's Tony Chapman from Chatter That Matters. RBC is offering more financing options to support Canadian homeowners looking to maximize their property's potential. Whether you want to provide supportive housing for a family member or supplement your income with a rental, RBC's Construction Mortgage Multi Units Program has you covered. You can finance additions like laneway homes, garden suites, modular units, or even redevelop your home
into duplexes or triplexes. Speak to an RBC mortgage specialist today to see how this program can work for you. Maximizing the potential of your home, well, that matters to you, to me, and to RBC. Why it is a challenging time in the housing market right now. We were waiting for prices to come down or interest rates to come down, and we've made
the decision it's it's time to buy even if it's at an inflated cost. More young Canadians are choosing to partner with their parents to be able to jump those hurdles. It's not ideal, but this is what people are doing these days, or else people are just gonna be stuck, and it's sad. It's Tony Chapman. A big shout out to RBC for supporting chatter
that matters. We hope to counter the negativity and growing sense of impossibility with stories of people who overcome circumstances to chase their dreams and change their world and ours for the better. Joining me now is Brad Bradford. He's a city council in Toronto. I view him as a positive force to change. He's He's pragmatic.
He's focused. He has purpose. He has values. And he's on a mission to change the status quo, to reduce the friction between those who, for example, want to renovate their homes and add a density, and the bureaucracy who often finds a way to stand in their way. Brad, welcome to chat of the matters. Thanks very much, Tony. Huge fan of the pod, and it's an honor to be here. Listen. I love the fact that your roots are in city
planning. That in your knapsack, you were in the the plumbing of the city trying to figure out how to organize a chessboard for the next 5, 10, 25 years. Taking that time in into into account, what is the most pressing issues a city like Toronto or Vancouver, any major city is gonna have to deal with in the next quarter century to century if we're gonna continue to
be viable as a city where people feel excited about living? Well, I think you hit the nail on the head there with the question viability of our cities, municipalities across the country and the continent right now. And if you look at the city of Toronto, we're seeing an alarming number of folks leaving this city on an annual basis. Board of Trade pointed out last year, 50,000 folks, many families actually picked up and left Toronto in a flight for affordability.
And that's because if this is a city where we cannot secure the most, fundamental need, which is a roof over your head, a place that you can call home and afford, you're going to go elsewhere. And that's a big challenge for for our cities, which are the economic engine of our country, because it's the people who are actually doing the work, contributing to our economy, growing
our GDP. They're the ones who are leaving. All of this sort of goes back to the issue of supply, supply of housing that peep people can afford and the different types of housing that for a long time in cities like Toronto has really been off limits for people to build. We need some leadership change, we need a different type of politics, and we need to create a culture of yes within the bureaucracy rather than the the roadblocks that most folks encounter when they they try and
do something new or purpose driven in a city like Toronto. You know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs talks about safety and security. Essentially, a roof over your head is one of the most important things that we can give a society, especially a country as rich as Canada. Why do we get so many roadblocks when it comes to what to me should be the the primary focus of city council right now is to say, we gotta create affordability, and that begins with a roof over
someone's head. Well, you think about all the dynamics that have changed in our world over the past 5 years, 10 years, and it's been a lot, the increasing trend of globalization, mass migration, immigration, global pandemic, inflation, all of these things mean that the world we're living in today is very different than the one we were even a few years ago. And unfortunately, big bureaucratic organizations are not very good at responding to change, they're not very good at creative
thinking or innovation. In fact, they're set up to do the opposite. They're set up to do the same thing over and over again and repeat that. And of course, there's a role for that in government, but our ability as governments collectively to respond to the challenges and the pace of which change has taken place has really under delivered for people who are trying to call cities like Toronto home. And as a result, we have a massive
lag on supply. We don't have the type of urgency within our bureaucratic institutions to wrap their arms around these wicked problems and solve them. And, I I think there's also just a big culture of fear within these organizations. Nobody wants to make a decision. The easiest answer is always no, and the bureaucracy is on a pathway of least resistance. So there is no reward for innovation or thinking outside the
box or trying to problem solve. The safe position and the status quo is the one that prevails, And too often, that's the approach that we end up taking when it comes to housing. You know, we're so in tune. I wrote a post on LinkedIn last week talking about the invisible bars of status quo. And my hope is that AI, which doesn't have empathy, doesn't have heart, it doesn't fear change, and drives for efficiency is gonna expose a lot of these inefficiencies.
But I got a question for you, Brad. If we gave you the game ball, and I know there's a lot of people in Toronto who would love to see you running this city, what would you do? The biggest thing we can do is empower people within the government to make those decisions to drive projects forward. It's it's understanding what are our priorities going to be, and I think there are a lot of challenges in government, and certainly we're seeing that here in the city of Toronto where our priorities
are scattered. We're very reactive rather than proactive. I think it's about getting back to the the core business of local government, you know, when it comes to housing, setting up an environment where there are opportunities for growth, opportunity for market and not for not for profit sector to to thrive, and then making sure that the bureaucratic stage gates, the different divisions and all the commenting partners that are circulated on an application,
that we're all rowing in the same direction, and that direction is getting to yes and getting there as quickly as possible. It's actually a mentality shift here at the city of Toronto. How do we remove those roadblocks? How do we empower people to get through the approval cycle faster? And just fundamentally, how do we set the table so that we can accommodate the growth and the supply that is desperately needed? The other thing that you're an advocate for is
to open up our creative minds that there's other ways to do things. One of the things you've been talking a lot about is prefabricated homes. How do you sell the public on saying this makes a lot of sense and it's a win for everyone? When you take a step back and look at the global landscape, there are a lot of countries and sectors that are leading on prefab, on modular type of construction. And here in Ontario, we've been doing it the same way for decades
decades. And I think that's being challenged now because we have had a shortage of of skilled labor. We are seeing challenges with respect to interest rates that go are going up. So the time that a project takes for completion is now more expensive because you're paying more money on the the cost of capital for construction financing and the inflation related
to materials. So when we can do that faster, when we can utilize technology, modular, prefab, building materials, ultimately, that helps us deliver housing quicker, which means that housing can be more affordable. And, you know, Tony, a lot of people have preconceived notions about modular as, like, the portables that many of us went to school in growing up here in Ontario. I've had the opportunity and privilege to tour a number of factories
that are going up here across the province. And I can tell you the stuff that's coming out of them is everything from affordable housing to luxury hotel rooms. You're building everything in a controlled environment and climate. You can build 365. You're never getting rained out. And the types of tolerances that they can hit in that precision controlled environment, it's it's really like transformation that's going on right now, akin to the the startup of the
Model T and automotive assembly. So, Brad, my last question, because we're really talking about a changing mindset, a changing mindset within the public sector, within the all the people that sort of support the creation of housing, How do we create a sense of positivity and possibility with that young generation who once thought that owning a home was
part of the rite of passage? It was part of the Canadian dream. And yet when I talk to people like Callan, they're saying most of my friends just are extending their twenties because they don't think they'll ever home own a home. So why even bother saving for 1? My message to folks, you know, and I'm
a 1986 model. I'm 38 years old. So it's it's folks in my my cohort that are very much feeling this challenge in a really acute and real way, you know, trying to raise a family in a big city is it's never been more difficult, but the solutions are also there. And when we talk about modular technology, when we talk about unlocking supply, ending exclusionary zoning in vast swaths of neighborhoods that have been off limits for new types of gentle density, you know, we're breaking the mold
on all of that stuff. And the way that Toronto was governed from a zoning and planning perspective for the past 20 years since amalgamation, that is not working anymore, and there's a growing chorus of voices that recognize that and are pushing and advocating for some of those changes that are already underway. And I think the idea of home ownership is still a big part of the Canadian dream. And there's a lot of us out there swinging with both arms,
who are not ready to give up on that. It's about creating more opportunities for supply, more housing that people can afford, and that is that's right next to the supply problem. We need to create an environment where we can unleash an avalanche of housing across this country. And a big part of that is changing the regulations that have been there to to do the precise
opposite of that, which is of course restrict and stop housing. That needs to change if we wanna be a country that continues to grow, if prosperity is available to the people who are doing the jobs and growing the economy, that value proposition needs to change. So there's reason for hope because we've gotten to such a breaking point. It is now a conversation that I can't walk down the street or spend any time in the supermarket or go over to a
buddy's for a beer, and not end up talking about housing. We just need committed leadership of folks who are are ready to, to bring in the change that we need to see. You are, as I introduced you, a force of positive change. And you know that I'd be championing for you to one day run this country, but maybe just running the city will be enough to be your legacy and, and something that will give me great peace of mind.
So thank you for joining me on Chatter That Matters. Thanks for the, the support, Tony. Love you chatting with you. So the third part of this story today on this concept of the missing middle or gentle density, getting getting more from a lot, putting more people on the same square footage is Leah Robinson. She's a vice president of home equity financing at RBC. Leah, welcome. Tony, thanks for having me. I'm happy happy to join you today
on this important topic. I think this show is fascinating. I mean, we first start with Callum MacKay. He's a young kid living with his wife in Vancouver, 1 bedroom, and they find out she's expecting, and they need to make a move. And they start looking around further and further out of the city to find space that they they
feel confident they can raise a family in. And he talks about getting lucky, you know, in within his family, there was a house that they could build upon, create, you know, 2 bungalows and a and a rental suite. So everything we're talking about is saying, you know, that when property exists, can we do more with it? And the real question I have for you is that he ran into so much challenge in terms of getting banks to open their minds to the fact that this is a new
way of looking at housing. It requires more innovation, more creativity from the bank's point of view. And I understand that's what you're doing at RBC, so I thought you could weigh in and talk more about, which isn't necessarily a a skip in the park or an easy thing to sort of approve, but still requires the kind of thinking and creativity that that, you're willing to put into it. You know, the example you gave is is such a great one of of where families and and
people are thinking about, you know, how how can they live differently. Right? And so, you know, when we look at programs as a bank, we wanna be able to support support customers, who are interested in making some of those changes. And construction right off of the bat is not for the faint of heart, and I'll say that, you know, I'll say that over and over, because there certainly is challenges in terms of working through
the process. But it's it's different ways of living. You know, when you look at some of the the the supply challenges, we really have to look at this in many different ways. New buildings, yes, are great, but how do we reuse and recycle some of the existing infrastructure and modify it so that families
and communities can live, live a bit differently? And and that's where, you know, we're looking at our programs saying, how do we support people, who wanna do this, who wanna live in multigenerational homes or have the ability to to generate, additional income to be able to support support a mortgage. And so if I was in that situation saying, listen. I've got this house. I you know, maybe I want my mother-in-law to move in, or I wanna find some rental income.
Is a process for approaching someone like RBC different? Because it isn't your, you know, here's my down payment, and here's how much I can afford in a house. This is something I own and wanna do more with it. Yeah. I mean, we certainly have programs both at if it's an existing property that you own or that you wanna purchase. And it just depends as well in terms of how deep are you planning on on going
with that home. We do have those options for both kinds of clients depending on what you wanna do, whether it's multiple suites, whether it's putting in a single suite, adapting a space, you know, for family members, whether they're seniors and they need special equipment, whatever it is. And we will recognize in the cases that that clients want to, the income that that that they will generate if if that's
the intended use of the property. Leah, part of this is not just the sort of doing the math, but it's the the insecurity and uncertainty, the path that I haven't followed in the past. What is your advice? Yeah. I mean, I think the first place to start is to really understand
where you're living and what are what are the requirements there. But when you're ready to kinda go through that process and you said, this is a decision that makes sense for me, our mortgage specialists are are best equipped to kind of have those have those discussions.
Finding a qualified builder, I think, is also a really important piece of of that process, and making sure you're working with somebody who's reputable, who knows what they're doing, and can also help guide you through that process in terms of working with the municipality. What are the requirements in terms of permits? How do you go through that application process? And then the financing that
you need, you need to get through that. What role can an organization like RBC play working with the city, 2 very different entities, to try to encourage this kind of sentiment so that people that do have the ability to dream and wanna do find less friction and less bureaucracy and more people there saying, yes. Let's do it together. We can make this happen. I think one of the things that we're thinking of is is how do we build
those those bigger partnerships and processes. Right? Because what you you wanna be able to do, and I think, Tony, some of the stories that you've delved into is it really is it it's really difficult right now. And so how can between a builder, a municipality, and a bank sort of come together and say, we kinda need to create a repeatable process? Because when people hear about how difficult, it can be, it sort of pushes them away from that. Right? And it creates creates that fear of taking
something like a a big project like that on. So, you know, creating those opportunities is really about, looking at what are the right partnerships and what are the experts, that the average person needs around them in order to be able to accomplish something like doing a major major renovation on their home, major re reconstruction of their home in order to be able to accomplish their goals. So, Leah, you've launched this. What's the uptake like? We still
haven't seen a lot of uptake. The simplicity of putting in a laneway or, you know, a basement suite, that's a lot easier. One of the things that you you wanna see as you look at sort of that dense density is is getting up into those 4plexes, those 6plexes. We're just not seeing it happen. There's still a lot of hesitation given the given the complexity of what people face to kind of move through these projects, but also the cost. You know, you need
to be working with reputable people. These are not, this isn't a bathroom renovation that could go wrong, you know, like, this is a big deal. People hear horror stories about some of that, and so so it's scary. Leah, for all the things that you work on and manage, I have to believe that what you're doing here in terms of really helping people dream and do, find a way to get more from their property, whether that's more family living with them or more income, it's gotta
be some of the most rewarding work you're doing. Absolutely. I mean, I've got I've got personal stories in in my own family, you know, the difficulty, in in affordability. Right? And and so giving people the options to be able to adapt their their spaces. I love the story of this client that you've met and being able to do that. And not only does he get to stay with his family, but, and, and he's generating some income, which helps him, but he's also created another
space for another family. Right. And that allows them to, you know, live in a different style of housing in a different neighborhood and things like that. So You know, Leah Robinson, I love the fact that you talk. I have many stories, and I think telling these stories and sharing these stories is gonna have people realize that, you know, it isn't insurmountable. Not easy as you said, requires a lot of resilience like Calum showed and a lot of, you know, approach
to finding a way through it. But when you get there, as he said, is there's nothing more exciting than coming home and knowing I live in a bungalow. My brother-in-law lives in the bungalow behind me, and then we have a rental suite helping both of us covering the cost of the mortgage that it was, it was time well spent. So I appreciate your time today and, just looking forward to seeing what RBC's doing in this space and, give you a standing ovation because fulfilling mortgages is repeatable
doing something like this. Each one of them's a bit of a one off and, I'm I just congratulate you for taking that on. Thanks for having me, Tony. Appreciate it. Once again, a special thanks to RBC for supporting Chata that matters. It's Tony Chapman. Thanks for listening, and let's chat soon.