The Crazy Germans' Episode ft. Marcus Giuliano Stolz and Philipp Trier

the curve of new inventions and developments. I mean, if you watch from the phones in the car to the mobile phone, from the mobile phone to the smaller mobile phones, you know, the ones without the antenna on it, to smartphones, to tablets, and you know, as you used the term earlier, the cascade, it's like it's getting quicker and quicker, you know, it's like the curve of new inventions is not exponential, but Five years. Huge. Ten years. Fuck,

I don't even... Kind of like anyone knows what 10 years looks like. I'm feeling something in my spirit. Hello, friends and lovers of art. Welcome back to Chats and Tats with me, your host, Aaron DeLaVedova. I got to give a shout out to my sponsor, everybody. I know you don't want to hear a commercial right now, but first of all, sullenclothing.com. If you're into my art or tattoo art in general, and you like to wear cool t-shirts and hats and

hoodies, check them out. You know, yeah, it's a shout out to my sponsor, but Honestly they're a huge part of why i'm still here so you know ryan and jeremy have been friends of mine for years they love this industry and they're great human beings so thank you so much for all your support. With that being said i'm super excited today because we get to get a little taste of tattooing from

other parts of the world today specifically germany i'm really interested in people that come from abroad just because. I don't know i feel like you really can't figure out what the fuck is going on in the world unless you talk to people that are from those areas i don't trust our new cycle i don't trust much anymore. I like to hear from the horses mouth so it'll be interesting to hear what it's like in germany as an artist as a

tattoo artist. And on top of that both these gentlemen are absolutely amazing tattoo artists in their own right really fucking talented their styles are well. One of them i would probably categorize as a hyper realism with an avant-garde twist kind of that black work style but there's also. Illustration and portrait worked into it beautiful work.

And also you know the other gentleman's with me today it's black and grey but it's not just realism we does realism but he also does portraits he also does illustrative type work it does decorative work all that fusing together to make beautiful large format whole body. Compositions that are just breathtaking so with that being said please welcome my guest today marcus We're all tattooers, and I think today I'd like to talk about tattooing a

bit, other things too. But let's just start off with some basics. Both of you guys have been tattooing for 16 years. Marcus, you worked with

Philip at Locomotive Tattoos for how many years? Three years, maybe. You've since moved on with your fiancé to a solo studio, which is, I get it, you know, especially the type of work you do. Very large format, that privacy aspect. And Philip, you still work and run your own studio, Lokomotiv. Yes. Okay. Cool name, by the way, Lokomotiv. Yeah. Lokomotiv is like, it means the front of a train. In German. The big steaming thing, you know, it's Lokomotiva. but I translated it not like

the industrial thing. I tried to put some art things in it. That's why I wrote it with 2C and it's just separated. It's kind of a great motives thing. The motives. Yeah, motives. But still the front of a train, which indicates like a big force But the good thing about it is, that's why I like the name as well, is nobody is scared about locomotives. It's just like a nice thing for little boys. They always want to be driving a locomotive and stuff like that. So you just have a memory

of childhood, good feelings about it. It's just strong, and it's nice, and it's beautiful, and it's big, and it's steaming, and That's a cool name. I like it, too. I like the way you broke it down. That's a very cool name. So let's start a little bit from the beginning, like each of you, we can start with either of you guys, but how did you get into this? I mean, let's start with you, Marcus. So how old are you? I'm 37. 37 years

old. You've been tattooing 16 years. How did you become Actually, it's a very, very, I like the story. I got to tell it. So thanks for the question. Well, it started, I was studying art, like free painting and do nothing with that, to be honest. Yeah. So I continued to study in Ludwigsburg, it's a small Baroque town, art and theology as a teacher. like religion, basically I was to become a religion and art teacher. And

in the street I lived, there was a tattoo shop. And I was super impressed because tattooing was at that time, we're talking about, let's say, 20 years ago. It was already like modernizing in a way, as far as I'm informed, because I wasn't... Yeah. And I was always super impressed because these guys that were going to the shops, had the balls to enter it, first of all, because we're close, there was no introspective, you didn't know what's going on in there, there was no... no videos, no

live streams or whatever. And I always, I liked this kind of... This mystery. Yeah, this mystery, this other universe, this secret society, in kind of a way you can call it, maybe you can call it like that, or at least how I interpret it. With the years, I was doing my studies there, and I was always passing, and I had some tribals over my full back, I let them made I made them secretly when I was 17. It was super cool, like in a

biker shop, it was great. Great times on a bar, you know, there was like a bar seat and there was no plastic wraps or something. I didn't even see the stencil, I remember that. He was just putting something and I smelled the dettol, you know, is it the right term in English? Yeah, I still use dettol. Yeah, and then I just heard the coil like going on and it was like and the pain and that's it, it started like down on the back. Anyways,

and I got this a little bit bigger then. And at that shop, and then he said, hey man, but you hang here around quite often, because I was like coming and like, oh, hello, and you know, and trying to get somehow into that, you know? And then, I'm sorry, I'm making this Yeah, and then with the time he said, Hey, if you want to help me out with some cleaning and stuff, come over clean. And so it went step by step, like from cleaning to

cleaning the tubes. I mean, you remember these horrible times with these metal pipe cleaners, and then you're like, you have like three hairs on it. And you just have to clean the tips. And going from there, he showed me how to build up the station. So Sascha, thank you. I still appreciate it. Gerd and Achim also, the guys coming afterwards. It went further and further, like he gave me, then I had to learn how to make the needles,

you know, like with thread and stuff. Yeah. I think you spoke with Derek Noble about it, like how horrible this was, getting the things from the needle back out of, to get rid of the needle in front and then to like make them straight again and stuff like that. So I could really relate to what he said there, what I had never an idea. And I was, you know, I was like my grandfather, German side, my Italian grandfather was, had apple trees on my, it was a

modern thing of... Welder. A welder. Yeah. Yeah. And he worked by hand. So, but that was the only thing I was, I was connected to handcraft, you know, my mom was painting and learning different languages and stuff like that. So I was never like in this really working thing. And then I was there like making the needles. Then I got a machine, I remember that was the Green Monster by Icos. And you got this machine, it was a coil machine, like, I think it was a short

coil, but I'm not sure about it. And you got this like completely demonted, you know, and then it was... You mean demented? No, it was... Put it all in Yeah, deconstructed. Yeah, and then Sasha, my mentor back in the day said, hey, if you just make it run, it doesn't have to run smoothly, it doesn't have to run good, you just have to close the electricity in the thing, you can go on. It was horrible. It was the worst week because there was no YouTube. There was

MySpace. You know, that was the only social media platform. Yeah. And there was no tutorials. And it was Yeah. After I did the daily business, like in the mornings, I went to university. And then in the afternoons till evening, I went there. And then, yeah, 7, 8 o'clock. It was cool. I hated back then because other apprentices were able to tattoo after half a year. It was not my

thing. For me, it was cleaning and stuff. But now I What people don't think, looking at my work, they think, okay, it's like some artsy-fartsy modernism. I only do my style of thing. It's not like that. I'm a big fan of being humble and being grounded and being We're lucky. You're lucky. We're lucky to have touched that era of tattooing. You know, the young folks that are coming in now, maybe some, but most will never, never know that. And that's fine too,

but it's quite special when you get older and you were able to be a part of the old ways all the way to the modern ways of tattooing. That's really cool. I wouldn't have expected that either. You know, you're right. When I look at your portfolio, I don't assume, but in my mind, I'm thinking, you know, probably a guy, his first machine was probably a rotary pen style machine, maybe or something. But now you, you made needles, you built your first machine. That's

cool. That's very cool. And what about you, Philip? How did it all Well, it was just a moment in my life when first, you know, after graduating school, I was like a cook, a chef. So I learned that and I always was from small childhood memories on. I was always creative and I had this inner motivation to draw every day. just like things. I watch things

in life and nature and stuff like that. And then I sit at home, and I just have this, this inner will to describe it, just draw it and just reproduce it in on a picture. So But I never thought that it would be my

profession. I dreamed of it. But you know, in Germany, it's like, when you say I want to be an artist, like a classic artist, everybody's shaking their head and that you got to do something serious, you know, you got to work on cars, or you got to work on, like, like, you know, you got to get an engineer or stuff like that. So art is for, you know, dreamers. So, but I kept it in my, in my life every day. And then I was an art printer. You know what that is? Like a screen printing. And I

did, I did that for quite a long time. And then I was introduced into graphic design and stuff. And by the side, I was always like interested doing my own stuff, like oil paintings, aquarelle. I have taught like graphic. uh, illustrations and stuff. And

it started beginning that all my friends, when they grow up, they recognized, Oh man, like Phil is a good, like I can recognize he's a good painter or like a good drawer. And if they run out of ideas for like presents for their family, they asked me, Hey, my mother is her birthday next week. And I don't know what to, what to buy her as a present. Can you draw a picture of our dog so I can frame it and I can

have it, uh, hand it to my mom. So she would be very lucky. So I started like little artworks for, yeah, for money, for small money, just by the side. And I did my screen printing job and very nice projects there. And once in a while we got older and more and more of my friends asked me, Hey, my tattooer, I want to get a tattoo, but my tattoo is asking me for pictures. He doesn't want to draw for me. It was the time like

20 years ago, like 20. nearly 20 years ago like 18 years ago and you're a good drawer and i don't find pictures because i can't only like find in the internet like common tattoo pictures and stuff like that i don't really like it but i would like to have some egyptian thing on my back and like the pharaoh mask and stuff like that and i said it's no problem i can just draw you this But

I'm not into the technique of tattooing. So I just draw it and if it's good for the tattoo, he can use it, he can change it or whatever, you know, but I'm trying to figure out, put all your ideas together and maybe you can use it. But if the tattooer needs like a picture and he doesn't want to draw itself because he's just like a service man for you and you have to search the topics for your tattoo, I

can do it. So I started that and I did like 20, 25 like concepts for my guys over there, for my friends and stuff, for arms and backs and legs and stuff. I didn't really know what I'm doing. I didn't know if it's tattooable, you know, but I just did my best to serve them, you know, as with a drawing. And they always came back to me and said, my tattooer who saw the picture, he asked if I'm a tattooer. So you should show up in the shop, he said, because you're quite good

at drawing. And I was like, no, I love my job. And I'm like, I'm into it. And I can do my art by side and stuff like that. But once in a while, I thought about the questions from the tattooist to come over to the shop, because they want to learn to know me, who's drawing that good and drawing all the concepts for his friends, but never showing up because I had no tattoos at all, you know. My interest is always in art form, like I said, like oil paintings and stuff,

and I was always self-taught and stuff like that. And once in a while I thought about, man, what would it feel like just to do a tattoo? Not to receive a tattoo, but I was just interested in producing something which is in art form. I went to a tattoo shop and I said, I don't want a tattoo, but if it's okay, would you sell me some old stuff? And the first one, he was quite nice, so he said, yeah, if you want to do an apprenticeship, I can sell you these things, but

I have no place here. So I can sell you, you can just try to learn it. Well, he never thought I would do it, but you can, he raised the price for it. It was so much too high for it, but I paid it because I just wanted to buy like brushes and oil color and stuff like that. I just collected it and it's okay. So I never saw a YouTube video, never. I just watched all the things I got and I'm trying to figure out how to put it together.

And first of all, I put the grip upside down and I didn't know how the needle works and stuff like that. I didn't know that there has to be a rubber band and stuff. And I'm a really, like in my mind, I'm a really clear guy and I don't want to get into trouble. So the first moments my friends recognized I have a tattoo machine at home, they all screamed like, Oh man, you're good at drawing. I want to get a tattoo by you because And I said, I don't

really know how it works. I should try it on myself. All right. So then when I'm down in it, you can come back and then I will try it on you. Okay. So the first times I was so excited and I was really nervous. So I drank like five to six beers and

I put it all together and I said, just let's just go for it, you know. and I put like tattoos on my upper leg because I mean now thinking back of it it's quite of a challenge because on your upper leg you have to think mirror wise and upside down which is a challenge for itself but I tried it just for the first time and these are my first tattoos like the two geckos here yeah I did it like nearly 20 no just like 18 not bad yeah not bad Yeah,

and then as you can see, I always have marks like where I tried out how thick a needle is and stuff like that. I just, I just tried,

I just wanted to learn it, you know, I'm self-taught. As it comes to the point where I know how to put everything together, and I had some material on the side, that's what the moment when I invited first the friends, but no new tattoos, I taught them, hey, I'm learning it, so I can fix up your tribal or I can fix up your old tattoo, so that I don't, you know, demolish something or make some really artwork on not really artwork, some scratch work on them, which I'm not proud of. So I

was step by step, right? Yeah, getting into it, like in painting, if you want to do a big oil painting, you just first you make light, thin lines with graphite, and then you get concrete and more concrete and more with volume and shadings and stuff. But it took me about like a year and then I was fit for shadings and for long lines and stuff like that. I did a lot of Maori and like Polynesian stuff at first, which was like what people asked for because it was quite modern at that time. So

I had the pressure right away to learn long lines. long, Yeah, I needed it. The armband that goes all the way around and has I did it at home on my coffee table a thousand times and then I got quick better at tattooing and then the people came up to me and it was more and more and more and

that's what the point I decided just let my other stuff go. I'm into it full-time a hundred percent. I'm dedicated and I really liked it and I love it until now. Every minute So you completely self-taught. So you never, at some point you didn't go to a shop and start working with other artists I'm really sorry for all the traditional ways. I don't want to disrespect

this way and what I did in the history. I know it's not cool because it's not the perfect idea of getting a tattooer, but I was so self-confident about my skills in drawing that I just like ran into it, you know? It was not like my, I forced it to be a tattooer. It just was running

good. And then when I, with the respect of my work, which I did in the first times, I said, okay, now That's cool no judgment here i mean you have the desire the work the dedication to get where you're at today you know but i was very carefully and you were very responsible throughout that process. Yeah i mean there's a lot of tattooers out there that are around my age or your age of in tattooing that I'm really upset that there's so much available to teach people

how to tattoo. But I always feel like, look, it doesn't, you know, first of all, the cat's out of the bag. You can't put it back inside. But no matter what is available to all these people, the ones that will succeed in tattooing are the ones that have the talent, the work ethic. You're not going to get to a thriving career So I look at it like, fucking have at it everybody. And

the ones that rise to the top, rise to the top. And the ones that don't, I mean, the thing is too, especially today, I mean, Thirty three years ago when i was tattooing you can actually be a bad tattooer and make a living because there was so less yes and that. Was a problem you know but good luck now good luck you know paying your house payment or your rent as a shitty tattoo today there's no way. People have options and they can see him on their instagram and they can go to

somebody else and they will. So you're not going to make it unless you have all those things in place. The work ethic, the commitment, the dedication, This is what we say in Germany. Doesn't matter what job you do, as long as you're committed and you can work your ass off,

Just like that. I agree with that. So that's interesting. So two different paths starting at the same time. Did you guys know each other back then? No. So you've known Phil since when you started working there a few years ago? Yeah, like six years now. Maybe a little bit more. I would say more. Like eight years. Maybe something like that. That was nice. That was cool. We loved each other. That was really like, at first sight, you remember,

it was super cool. I remember that we went to company to check some inks, it was always tattoo related, the friendship we have. And yeah, and then, right, we went to my place, remember? And then we drank on the balcony. That was cool. No, and then we realized, also talking about work ethics, because that in my, just in my experience, that was actually the rise, like eight years, seven, eight years ago, when you had this, I know everyone is bitching about the Rockstar Tattoos

with every ride, because it's It's horrible. And I realized very fast that he was very well known in the region. And I was really crossing my fingers like, okay, I hope he's not one of these, these... Who are you? Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I met him, I was like, okay, fuck, this guy's fucking great. Amazing person, you know, and so... But that was actually pretty, that was pretty cool. And since then. A really good friendship. A

That's very good. And that's one of the best things about this craft is the friends we meet, you know, the colleagues we end up meeting, those, those friendships, the clients we meet and the travel, it's, it's, That's the gift that's a gift not the portfolio that you have at the end of your career show people how great you were whatever it's always gonna be these friendships made along the way. It's a special craft that you know to share. Hard to put into words, but I think about it a lot at

this phase of my career. That's the thing I care about So many things. So many moments and so many impressions. It's

Also, talking about work ethics. I grew up, especially in my apprenticeship, with the classic this Bible from Guy Aitchinson, reinventing the tattoo was amazing. And like the quotes, like Jack Rudy said, if you want to be a tattooer, make sure not to be an asshole. Nobody wants a tattoo by an asshole. And then I really

grew up with that. in tattooing, let's say, and it's really making a huge impression on me because it's not about you, even though you have your own style and you do the things your way and stuff like that, or you're very extinguishable from other tattooers or colleagues. In the end of the day, it's a very nice dialogue or symbiosis between two individuals that meet and one individual has like something made especially for

him or her, you know? Like by the tattooer. I'm not talking about this is you can only tattoo one piece once because I have big respect for flash work, for example. And you know how flash work works. I mean, I don't have to tell anyone here. And it's like you have, I don't know, Hanya mask, or what's the, what's the, what's the other, like a real classic, like the sacred heart or whatever. Panther. Yeah, the anchor and stuff. It's been tattooed for many, many times, but

this is not what I, what I mean. It's like there's someone sitting there

just for you, doing something just for you, carry around. And this, I know this is a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a term everybody says many times, but you really have to like like embrace this thought and really also understand it not only assimilate like really accommodate to it like that you understand hey this is a real thing that's happening and not just like something you say i i hear this all the time when when for example people talk about on the conventions you know, I'm never happy

with my work, I'm never so happy with my work. Sometimes I think, I believe that it's real, but I think sometimes it's also like kind of fishing for a compliment. And what people also must understand is that from this not being happy with the outcome of your work, of always thinking I could do better than that, and tomorrow I have to get better, spoke with Harry Barber about it, yeah, that the following day you always

have to like get over it, but this can also cause a big suffering. Yeah, like coming home and thinking, I think it was only 99%, not that messing up a tattoo, it's not about that. Everybody sees if something's messed up or not, I guess. But you know, like, this is also a big pressure you can put on yourself. So it's so what I want to say or explain is like so many factors, and you have to like, really figure out where you stand as a human in life.

for tattooing that is getting very, very big, very, I don't like the term too much, but I don't have a better word for it, but very holistic, you know, it's like starting from how you wake up in the morning, from how your picture of humanity is, how you see people, are you misanthropic, are you philanthropic, you know, like this is all factors that go into your work in a way, you know, because you work with humans on

It is. It's a spiritual journey. Yeah, really. I mean, nothing's taught me more about myself and who I am or what I think I am or what I need to work on or where I need to grow or what failures I need to admit to and to acknowledge and release. Nothing's done more of that. Well, I'll say there's three things. Tattooing is number one. It's done that for me more than anything. Well, that and my children. Having kids will teach you a lot about

yourself. And then, of course, owning shops and being, managing that. Because it's another layer to it. Like, understanding people, how you are received by them. You know, it is. It's some, I don't fully understand it either, but it's a very spiritual journey. And you know, it is a, I always say at the end of the day, there's only one thing I can do and I can only try my best that day. And yes, if I ever finished a tattoo that I said that was perfect, no,

I never have and I know I never will. But I do know I did my best that day. Now if I went home that same day and I didn't sleep and I went out partying the night before or I had an attitude of not giving a fuck, that I couldn't live with. If that tattoo didn't go great, I would be not okay with myself. But if I slept good, got up, ate a good breakfast, showed up as prepared as I could, did my best, and it still wasn't enough in

my eyes, what else do I have? And then you have to work on forgiveness and acceptance of yourself. You're right, people can, I've met artists that cared too much. They beat themselves up so much that it stifles their growth. So it's like you have to care and let it go simultaneously. It's a Zen thing, a very Zen thing. You have to care so much, and then when it's over, I don't care. It is

what it is. I did what I could, and tomorrow's a new day, and What I have to say, I have respect for every, really deeply respect every tattooer who is more than 10 years in the business, because I know the feeling that what you're seeing from the outside and what you're actually doing in the moment is so black and white. Everybody who hears you're a tattooer, they not like suggest, but they think your day is like only creative. It's only about you as

a tattooer and you can do whatever you want. You receive a big amount of money and then you can just go home, go party. You don't have to wake up that early and stuff. So I have a big respect for everybody who's like in the business for over 10 years. Because I know there is so much grounded and functional and like structural things you need to be that long in the business. You have to be a very adapted person to other persons. You

have to switch your mood because the other one is suffering. This is sucking so much energy out of you and you buy this side. You have to be creative and exact and functional. And you have to be like, it's so exhausting sometimes because you want that your customer goes over the hours. And even if you're not that sympathetical, you have to be the part who's feeding him with energy so that he can stay on, on,

on his chair and stuff like that. And that's why I have so much respect for tattoos like you, like Marcus, like everybody else who's doing the profession for so many years. And you don't get the very respectful attributes from outside. Everybody thinks as a tattooer you can have a rockstar life and you're loved by everybody and stuff like that. But you have to talk so much and you have to make so much compromises for

yourself. I'm a really long tattooer and I'm lucky I've established my own style and stuff like that. My clients are very loyal and they like what I do but the way to get there It was so hard because the guys who coming around in the first time, they are not that open minded. They don't know how about illustration works and how it fits together very

good. You have to make them offers. Like sometimes I did like three concepts in the like praying that he's going to do the like the individual or like the exceptional one, you know, like which one I tried to put the best in this topic, you know, but I did the first one, which was very simple and hold to the dialogue he gave me. And then I did the individual one. And then I did like a more like a concept for the future, you know, what I think, which is developing very good and

good on the body. And this is so much pressure. If anybody wants to get a tattoo, just be ready for many stressful days. It's not a rockstar life. You have to be sober, you have to be concentrated, you have to be on point, disciplined. And it's not like it's given to you by the side or you just walk across the road and then you're a tattooer. It's just, at least when you're a tattooer, you still have so many stressful days.

You have to plan before, you have to be 100% concentrated every day, and then when you're finished, there are the questions about your life, how you got to tattooing, and what's your story, and when can I come around, is there an appointment free, and stuff like that. So you're working all the time. Yeah, you have to decide and you have to be ready to get through this and then you will be in a tattooer and then you will be tattooed and then you live a

tattoo life. But you only have to be ready for this. You Absolutely. I mean, I've used to pour concrete, frame houses, dig ditches for a living. I was in the military. I was a mechanic. I was a rescue swimmer. No job I've ever had has taxed me more. than tattooing. Absolutely, 100%. And Oh yeah, yeah. No, I don't even bring it up. I just keep it to myself now. You know, you sit down with somebody else who, you know, they just got back from whatever,

running their insurance company and telling about their horrible day. And then I'm like, yeah, I had a rough week too. And you can just feel the room be like, what? You shut the fuck up. You didn't have a right. You don't know what work is, but you're right with the message you're sending out to everybody out there. Um, you know, and this was probably an important message 10 years ago, but I, I

now, There's no way around it. I mean, maybe people are misconceived and they think they're going to get into this rock star lifestyle and this easy job. But I think pretty quickly you'll figure out that you're not going to make a living unless you put this level of commitment into it. Which is great. There's a good firewall now. You're not going to be able to be a tattoo artist and make

a living unless you have all that going on. And like I said, earlier back in the olden days, people who came to work, hung over, did a few tattoos and went out partying every night, they actually did okay. For a lot of years. And it was kind of unfortunate because it wasn't... There's a lot of jobs where you can not care a whole lot about your job. It's just a job. Yeah. But this isn't one of them. And it always broke my heart to see those people thriving in

the industry. So bad, not the bad news, but nowadays that gravy train, that easy road that just make a living half-ass, gone. Yeah. But I love it because now we've all got to be real. You got to be really a real tattooer with a true heart and commitment to it. So that's beautiful. And the fact you guys are here is proof that you both And the last thing is what I have to say about like getting like from the outside getting quick successfully and tattooing is like Instagram

can't save your ass. You know, you can upload some nice photos and if they're not from you and you're trying to like phishing clients with that, there will be some clients who are not really like into what you're really doing. They believe you in the fake photos and stuff like that. And you can be like popular for a short amount of time. But after that, it's

the proof in real life. And then you will be very stressful. Then it will be so hard to be responsible for what you did in the past, and it will chase you a lifelong. Yeah, for a little while. You're not going to fake it for 20 years. Yeah, no, no. Good luck.

If you care. I mean, some of these folks I've met, they're like sociopaths. I don't think they even lost any sleep. I would lose sleep, but whatever. Well let me ask you a little bit before we get into some bigger, bigger, more

philosophical kind of questions I have. What's your just, I like to hear your process, like, what is your process for, you meet a new client, Marcus, and I'm assuming a consultation occurs, and then bookings occur, and then what's your work day look like, how many hours do you like to work, like For me, I usually quite earlier, way more earlier than my customer at the shop. I'm talking about two, three hours. Usually I started between nine and 1030 every

day. And, um, but preparing the design, I actually, I have many returning customers, which is very, very good. So, because if you have like this common base and you know, each other is like, you know, you're, you're, you're calmer, Exactly. And so, you know, how to how to develop the design, you know what this person likes, especially I have this many times when I say, I like this part of the of

the sleeve, for example, this I like especially. And then I know, okay, this is something I can try to repeat or like, Build up a little bit, expand a little bit, exactly. It depends really, this is like how long I work. Sometimes can be really, a day can be only three, four hours, but I found myself also leaving the shop at 10 o'clock, 11 o'clock in the evening, at night. It's really,

How many hours do you tattoo for typically? I Needle to skin, like really the, let's say, netto time of tattooing, four to seven hours. Seven. Yeah, but mostly, mostly it's orientated more around four hours. Yeah. I would consider myself quick. Yeah, but you know how it is talking about yourself and what you can and what you cannot do. I don't know. Like, self-perception and the perception of others is, of course, not always the same, yeah.

Right. Well, I've got Filippo there saying you're a very fast tattooer. That's a compliment. I like to believe I'm fast too, but I think the style of work I do is slow by its nature. A lot of colors, blending, large form, it just, it can It can. I did the color, just a second, I did a color piece, like I can show you later. I don't know, like four months ago. like big like this. And I thought, and he asked, he's also a very old customer, and he said, how much

do you roughly think we need? I did this chest, like from here to here, he had like a big swallow, I also have it in the portfolio. I did this in like three, four hours. And so he of course thought, yeah, for this little fox with a little bit of orange and red and stuff, maybe we'll need two and a half hours. So, but I, I ended up sitting there seven hours. So that was exactly. I'm glad you said that. This color work is so difficult. I have so much respect for

It's a lot more time consuming. It really is. Um, my, my, my, you know, I've done a few body suits and there are, you know, collarbone to ankle bones, all color, full illustration. And, um, Yeah. Kudos to those people that sat through that. I don't know the exact hours, but I know it was a tremendous amount of work versus just maybe a black and gray or black work, but. What about you, Phil? Do you like to work for the same amount of

Six hours? Yeah, less like six hours is the common time I'm tattooing and preparing for about like two and a half hours. And mostly I do two clients a day. So a small one and like a day session. So all in all, I'm in the shop for about 10 hours. And I draw No iPad. I figured you guys would say that. My day is similar. Same for me. But you do occasionally meet an artist who has some

really strange way of doing it. I heard a rumor once that Horiyoshi, if you get a big project from him, you're expected to be near his shop and you come in every day for an hour. All right. I don't know. I had two or three people tell me this, guys. I'm just saying out loud. It's probably bullshit, but maybe it's too hard. But these small little everyday little. Yeah. And I'll do like four or five people a day or something. I thought that's not very. But

Yeah, I mean, breakdown set up six times a day. Who wants to do that? It's all right. No, I find five hours is the I mean, sometimes four, sometimes six. But the That five hour mark, almost always for me and the client, everyone suddenly starts shutting down. And then I prefer multi-set. Now my clients, now the new thing for most of them is two, three days in a row, five hours each day. That's a So this goes out to the client. Don't don't expect too many hours

because it's just not good in the end for you. It's just too much. It Yeah. And you don't want me tired. You

Yeah. It's so exhausting. Brain is done. You don't ask your doctor for a surgery and you come in and say, Oh, you only like operating on me like four hours. Why don't you do eight hours? Come on, I want to get it done. You don't do it to a doctor, do you? But he has to be the respect to work concentrated. So they're changing, you know, maybe for the surgery is taking eight hours, they changing the doctors. After four hours, they

say, okay, you're exhausted. Now the other one has to go because it's too dangerous. Yeah. Yeah. And the same thing for tattooer, is it? I didn't know they do that. Yeah, they do that. If they have like complicated heart One surgeon operating on a brain can't hold that Yeah, you have to change. It's very, very dangerous though. Everybody has to be on time and exact work. So that's why they're changing after

I'll be experimenting with that in a very personal way on October 4th. We, I, and three other tattooers here at Guru are gonna be doing an anesthesia tattoo. Wow. Four of us working on one man. He's trying to get his whole entire front with ribs. I already told him, like, I don't, can't promise we're gonna finish, but we do have four tattooers working simultaneously. And yeah, there'll be probably times where the two on the right side We have

to roll him on his side to work on the ribs on the left side. Then those two guys can take a break, have a coffee, roll him the other way. Now we work for a couple hours. Then put him flat. Now we all work, you know? I don't know. We're just gonna hit it as hard as we can, try to get as much as we can done. It's interesting, yeah. I mean, I know my era of tattooing and my peers that are my age, I know a lot of them. Think this is stupid and I'm I shouldn't be doing this But I I've always had

the opinion that I'm here to be of service, right? I'm not here to decide what your journey is like. That's why I've always Whatever you you want to work for this amount of time. I'll do that. You want to you want to use a little numbing cream? I'll try it as long as it doesn't mess up the skin. That's your decision the clients. I this particular guy, he's already gotten a full back piece from me. He's got two sleeves. He's, he can be tattooed. He's been to, but

he's a busy man. And he's like, I don't want to make Sorry if I interrupt. So you, you know, the guy in advance, because I think this is also, um, in this, I actually, I spoke yesterday with Kenny about it. This is the first time I heard about it. Kenny B? Yeah. Yeah. Yes. He's on the project. Yeah, he told me that he's very excited also. Very cool. Such a nice guy. I really like him. But apart from that, I'm really interested how this process goes.

And I think it's a very, very important detail that you know that person in advance. I think that's not important. I mean, I don't have like a... direct opinion to that, but because I just didn't think about it. But what I think is important in this thing that it's like, you know, that person that you know, okay, he can, as you said, he can stand, he made his back, he's busy. I I won't say the number out loud.

Yeah, you're spending a tremendous amount of money for And I have to say, all the guys who are saying this is stupid and this is crazy, they're just saying it from the outside. They're not in your position. You're the one to decide and you're the one who's, you know, like getting the idea and they can say whatever they want to. They're not in the situation to decide. Yeah, they don't know what they would do if they would get an offer like that. So you're

quick to judge, but you're not in the situation. So I think if you decided it is, it is your right to I agree. I mean, I'm excited about the critics. We're going to film the whole thing. We're going to, I'm not going to, yeah. I'm like, come on, let's have, let's hear all your opinions. I can't wait. You know, I'll probably have the guy on the podcast to talk about

the whole experience as well. And I might not do it again. I mean, I'm one of those people, like, I'll try most anything once, you know, maybe I've done it. I'm like, that didn't work for me for this reason or for this reason or that. Or maybe we'll do 10 more. Exactly. Exactly. So that's kind of an interesting side note. But let's move on a little bit to... All right. So tattooing, obviously, has changed in a lot of different ways. But

one of the biggest things that's changed for us is the social media aspect of tattooing. I miss those days where it was so pure, like you just did a tattoo, the person was happy, they showed their friends. That was the only clients I got. Every client, how did you find out about me? Oh, I met so-and-so, and he told me you're great, and I saw his tattoo. I want you to tattoo me. That was it. Or maybe they walk in, you hand a portfolio, they

look at it, like this work, they get a tattoo. That's kind of gone. I mean, not gone. You're still gonna have people telling friends. In Germany, it's very, with our clients, this is very common. Well, referrals, but how many people come into your shop to look at portfolios? Nobody. That's gone, right? Everyone's getting, uh, figuring out who tattoos and where, mainly from Instagram, you know? And so, and that's fine. I mean, it

is what it is. Social media is such a, you know, you got to draw, you got to create, you got to have, um, consultations. You, you got to do all the things it takes to make a great, great tattoo. And then you also have to be a creator of content and managing your, your social exposure. How do you guys do you guys just do it i mean is it you have a system or just i developed the system with an app oh this is the thing you're talking about earlier as a workflow to get that stress.

I've heard of this. Have you been putting ads out Because it's ready in January. It's called workflow. No, it's not called workflow. It's Illum. Oh, okay. Yeah, it's more efficient and illuminating your growth with your studio, you know, so it's specifically a social media. No, it's just for your personal assistance as an artist, so you don't have to spend that much time making plans about how you can handle all these other things beside the art, you know. So it

is built on my experience being nearly 20 years a tattooer. What are the stressful and really annoying things in your work life, in your work day? And the app works like a silent, soft assistant on your side who's tipping on your shoulder and saying, we're ready for this step. And I thought about this one. And you can go to sleep because everything It's in the first, the first month of 2025. So it's just about five, four months.

And then, uh, you can, uh, you can pre, uh, sign and you get the message when we're ready to download in the app store, um, on www.elume. It's like E double L U M E and then dot studio. Okay. Yeah, you can sign up Aaron. I Well, if you want to, I will check it out. I mean, I'm my positions. I have, you know, owning these shops. I have people I have actual to assistance, you know, but I'm thinking of of people. Regular Am I allowed to show you just how it looks

like in the end? Yeah, let's take a look. This is very important for me because I always search for good people who work for me, like shop assistants and management and stuff like that. But you know how humans are, sometimes they get bored behind the desk and stuff like that. So in the end, I found myself very often, I don't want to, you know, I don't know the culture here is very much better, because you get tips as a desk

manager, and everybody's friendly to you. But in Germany, this job is very difficult to handle and to be motivated on it. And in the end, I found myself paid a lot to the people to do the job. But in the end for myself to have to do it all myself, you know, so, because it wasn't that structured. And then I found it with a very good friend of mine, um, who's a programmer for apps and stuff like that. He always recognized stuff like that. So I created this Illum app and

in the end it will be look like that. There's always on the dashboard. Yeah. It's not ready to go right now. This is just a prototype for, for Supply levels. Supply levels. Appointments and Social media. What's going on with your social media. This is the click show. New clients. There's a section for that. All And you have like the like reference pictures from your client. Yeah and then it shows you like inspirational help for

Yeah. And if you just type on it, you can get the client's file details and then you can go on it and then you see how many visits he has. So he's a loyal customer with six visits and how many references he send it to you. And then you can create, you can call him if you have questions like here. Or yeah and in the end you can go like to proms like the AI and they are searching a text over the reference pictures

and then you can create you know you make you can make creations. So for inspirational help and if you don't show up. If i look up a client's name in my calendar i didn't have to go to photos folder which is this is all in one solution if i want to know what money he has spent or been to the shop i have to go to another program that tells ya so i'm gonna like three or four places to figure out the

And here you can see what you already did on him. So you can add on the new idea and you stay in focus what you did already to the client, what he sent it to you. And this is just the inspirational head with the client file. It works just so good. And when somebody's coming, there's auto search and all your clients and all the numbers and all the information about the client. And it's just an all in one solution. Such an intelligent, soft assistance

for you as a solo artist. And we already have like programs for teams. You can like put up to 50 people on the app. You just pay it once at a shop and then you can share all the information. Maybe if you want to change clients for a quick tattoo and you don't have this slot in your day or time, you can just change the information about the clients in the studio. And so you can work together as a team on it as well. And the supply level

is always like the main information for everybody. They can add things which they recognize, they can add things on the order list, and then the responsible person for it can always see, oh, he needs some new needles, or this one is going down, so maybe we should order it and stuff like that. So it's just for close contact services. Because I'm so long in this business, I'm trying to Get every like stressful problem what

you have in organization beside the art. I have to try to put it away from you so that you can concentrate on your just clean artful day in this. So it only works for professionals. It's not for the customer side or the client side. This is really a help for someone who runs a shop. That's what the main focus is. It's not like all the other projects like making a connection between the client and the service people.

It's just to help you as a tattooer to be just 100% concentrated and be light on your mind to do your I have to write a... I forgot to buy something or something like that. This is mine. Who's coming I have one of those already. This little pad of sticky notes. That's how I do it. I need five liners and fourteen round

Download Illume. You can get rid of that. Download this Well, I would probably... I wouldn't use it, but I And have everyone at the shop on it so that Yeah because she has to go around to each artist or they have to go to her this guy is telling us we're low on this guy says we need that and then she gathers all that places orders and if someone's asking himself at home who's Normally you should write the shop management hey who's my next client for

tomorrow what is reference pictures are like in there and then you can stay in bed and just prepare yourself for the next day you don't have to ask or bother somebody, you just have everything all the information for your next or for the next next client you have all together and you can look at it and then you can just decide Okay, that's who I would want to see that. Yeah, yeah. I I'll talk to her more about that. I can give you the... I have a quick image video about

it. So maybe if it's okay for you, I just pass it over to your phone so you can go on the website and check it out. There's Very cool and will be ready there's definitely a need for all that yeah i mean i'm i specifically know as a shop owner for so many years there's a need for that that's i think that's gonna be very successful. Thank you you can touch on something i want to bring up maybe is this a

i think like how do you guys see that like you know. Used to be had to be able to illustrate and i still think that's helpful yeah obviously composition is not doing that quite yet but i think it will. You know the people we say well aaron they want this but only i know how to make it into a sleeve i'm like for now pretty soon you're gonna build a just upload a picture of a man's arm the guy you're gonna tattoo or girl. tell that program this person wants an angel attacking a demon with fiery

hell below and heaven above. And it's gonna give you 15 to 20 to 100 options. So the need to be an illustrator has been removed, quite literally. I mean, maybe we're still in the gray area, and some people will still by hand on their own illustrate, but there's gonna be plenty of people who could come into the tattoo industry in the future who are not going to have to have the skill of Well, Wells Fargo is not riding animals anymore, is it? I'm

sorry? They're driving. It's like the horse has been changed to a car. Yeah. So this is new times. It's 2025 or

2024, nearly 25. I don't think there is, you can always stuck to the old ideas, driving an electric car, but making rudimental techniques for preparation Let's use it i agree with you this is just the way it is and it's okay and honestly it's probably gonna make tattooing better in certain ways i've already seen like sometimes when i go through my instagram and i see some of these wildly creative illustrative ideas that are coming out. I don't know about all of them, but I'm pretty

certain a lot of them have been AI assisted. Of course. You can see it in the work. So, you know, an artist who already knows how to illustrate, he goes into one of these AI apps, he enters some sketches he's done or enters data, it feeds out stuff. He takes pieces from these things. He puts those together in his creative taste and

builds something new. But now you've got human interacting with AI and at the end, Maybe you get a better product of course but it still doesn't have the artist to get better in tattooing you still have to bring it to the body that's always gonna be there technically tattooing that might be removed one day i don't think in our lifetime personally you know to get a machine that my arm and it. I'm not saying it I will cost so

much money to develop it. There is no person that puts millions and millions just to produce a robot I wouldn't be so sure about that, to be honest. I mean, imagine 20 years ago, also nobody would say, yeah, the people from permanent makeup would come and go to the tattoo industry, you know. And I mean, if you look at, I don't want to name or make some name dropping, but there is a huge company in tattooing, which comes actually not from tattooing. This is

not a Lauro Paolini who makes tattoo machines, for example. this is someone just realizing or also a big supplier another still no name dropping here but they don't come from tattooing they are not tattooers they just see hey there's a market there's money to make and with this information they say okay let's we have that we have the power the financial power the economical power to to like go into that market and I don't want to sound like a gatekeeper or something, I mean between 16 years

it's nothing, and I don't want to like sound like that, but no one would have ever thought, let's say maybe, I mean 20 years ago, I would, I'm now just guessing the time, that they're so big, they're such big Companies coming into the market and trying to intervene in Well, I mean, think about this. Okay. Well, first of all, I'll say, I don't think that what we're talking about is going to threaten our personal careers. So we'll get to that, what is happening in our careers in a second, but

I think you're right. I mean, when you think about, I know that the tattoo industry, just the act of performing tattoos, not the inks and all the equipment, is in the billions per year. So you have a market as billions of dollars when you have a market a large you got this guy over here is making a weapon development or whatever that's right and then suddenly is like that it's our company gonna be like

we already have a lot of this technology. We just adapted we can access thirty to forty percent of a billion dollar market they would be motivated to make that machine that you put your arm in, There's your tattoo so i do believe that that day could come it's probably not in our future but in our current reality it is true that this thing is is in our industry you need to be an illustrator has been removed. But i do believe that it's that fusion that

i think is beautiful like the artists that are. You know, they've been tattooing long enough to understand good composition, the right colors to use, the right placement, all these things. Then they get the AI to maybe create some art that's a little different, give them a novel idea like, huh, I never really, I wouldn't have really interpreted the idea like that, but I can use that. And then they come in and the two combine and make great art. You know, it's, yeah.

So in the end, we're actually just talking about tools. This would also have been my answer to the question with Instagram. I wouldn't be too judgmental about things. I know it's like a little bit of this reckless diplomatic blah, blah, blah. But in the end, it's just a tool. It's a task you have to go through. Me, for example, from cleaning the toilet to the first customer contact, to social media. It's a one man show or one man and woman show and looking at the shop I have with

Anna together, you know. So it's a super, super fun thing. And I guess also, whether you talking about AI now, speaking about AI now, whether you make a reference search, for example, with photographs of faces, skulls, whatever, or whether you are just putting it into AI and then having the reference,

you still have to, you know, like, go over it again. So in the end, I don't know how much it's changing, you know, like, I don't know if that was Google spitting out that picture or AI spitting out that picture, because in the end, it's still When we're talking about individual work or individualism, you still have to change it and put it or translate it. Maybe translating is a better term for that. So I

don't know. I mean, I had in the beginning my problems with it, I must be honest, but that's also maybe like when I remember in the like 15 years ago when there were tattoo shops who had internet, you know, like Google Research, everyone or the other shops around in the same town that yeah, work with internet now, everything will look like Google, you know, so maybe this is just an expanding move of that with the AI, so I guess it's just, as you said it earlier, the

cat is out of the bag, you cannot put it back in, so you have now cards with which you have to play, you know, that's it. So there's no need to hate against it, it's just happening and you do it like just the way how you can deal with it, because in the end you're solitary Agreed. I agree with everything you said and I'm fine with it and I do think it is a tool. But there's no doubt that it's going to allow more people to become

tattooers. Like the thing that the wall that stopped people from when I tattooed as a young man was if you couldn't draw what the customer was asking for, you're done. Or you work at a street shop with flash, and that was another job. There were two different jobs. You hadn't even had it. They're like, that's a custom tattoo shop, and that's a flash shop. They were separate things. But that's no

longer a wall of a barrier of entry. That's gone. I'm some more people can come come on come on in the end the full experience and what you bring to the table the love the commitment the authenticity. And and i personally believe you know speculating about a i and its effects on the creative world i think though in the future. The

people that work with their hands and make things the pottery maker the welder the tattoo artist i think that way that handmade aspect will become more valuable. You know so right now we're going to this new renaissance where everyone thinks it's super cool you know like right now people are buying a i are for their houses i think that's gonna be. Not so cool at some point because what do people want from art in the end something unique that nobody else has. And so if i walk into someone's house

and i see this amazing a i make some. Incredible art i mean it just boggles your fucking eyeballs i get beyond what i even think a human could do. I mean some of these art things i'm seeing on instagram that are moving like a face is turning into mushrooms and into space and into a woman and into a horse running and back to a. You know i sign it yeah i'm just looking at this like what the fuck like. No offense to humans but i don't think a human can do that maybe

a human if you worked. For a year might be able to make that and meanwhile this little generator play made that in and you know. Maybe someone fucked with a little bit but maybe an hour of changing the prompts and boom there it is but as cool as that is. If i went into someone's house and i saw that thing happening on a television in their house like this piece of art i bought it. I would be relatively impressed now, but I don't think anyone's going to be that impressed in

10 years. Yeah, no. As opposed to walking in a house and seeing a painting, like that one that's hanging above you, behind you right there. Yeah. Not as interesting and captivating as some of the AI art, but you know, like a human, there's hair in that, there's skin. I think that'll become probably more valuable in the future. Yeah, of course. So maybe it's a good thing. It's just interesting. It's interesting to watch this whole thing. It's

So fast. And the thought what I have about all this topic is, if you generate and you get a more easier way for being a tattooer because you're generating your illustrations and stuff like that with AI, It still will be very hard to have the joy of the day of your artwork during so many hours to processing is to the skin because this just needs love for the craft from you. Otherwise, it's very hard

to overcome a whole workday as a tattooer. Even if the preparation is more short now and the ideas are more generated from AI, it's still a very hard thing if you don't really love tattooing to be that joyful in a day for six to eight hours. It will be very hard. You know, and you're right. It's hard to sit down and look at something, you know, staring at it and do it for six, every day, every day. And one of the ways we get through that is it's our art, it's our soul,

it's our heart. But if but if it was jerry by a technician difficult job as a technician that's why it's like being on the assembly line putting little things on to computer chips into phones as i go singing by you all day, good luck And I think this is a very positive thought about that there is not this much amount to expect of the tourists who are just soulless workers, you know, because it's hard to have a good life with this like main work

as your work, you know, it's hard to have a good life because you will be always be kind of annoyed or kind of You know you don't want to be there you don't want to do this job because you don't really love it and that will be our security program to that. Really good artists with good skill and with good

communication base and with a good empathy for people. I will I agree but it certainly is fun to watch yeah it's just to watch this changing landscape i find it wildly entertaining and not just for tattooing just the world like how what is this AI gonna do. When will it finally cure cancer? And when will it make its first bioweapon? When will it, you know, from the good, good, good to the bad, bad, bad. I'm shocked we haven't seen any crazy shit

go down yet. I really am. I know we have seen some, but I mean, crazy. Like, everyone in Tokyo is dead today because AI created a fucking new germ. Six people did it in some fucking cave over in some country somewhere else. I No, yeah, I mean, that's the crazy part is what we know is crazy. And now we know there's a whole chapter, a What the fuck are they really doing over there? Yeah. I mean, email was used in the military way years before the first email

I've been told the wars of the future will just be, uh, Cyber attacks. I mean, think about it. If you want to destroy a country, you could do it a lot quicker by shutting down their power grid or fucking up their entire banking system. I read the book. Blackout is the name. I don't remember the author. And it's a simulation. It's a simulation out of different perspectives. What would happen if we wouldn't have energy For only energy. Every other source is there,

is available. It's just electricity, energy that is not there for two weeks. It's the end. Really, it's crazy. Because on the first glance, I thought, well, we go back to Feral, you know, we hunt our own stuff. No, it's like, it already starts with a simple thing like flushing your toilet. Like when the pumps are not working, You cannot flush the toilet. You know, this is like, you start getting sicknesses. I Yeah, it's super crazy. But finally

AI will not work. But then they will call it like, you know, this from the human slaughter. With the animals, they will have the humane warfare, like just throwing like some neutron bombs and stuff on the planet. It's wild, it's super wild and I mean, as a somewhat Buddhist, I just believe that Nothing's ever wrong. Yeah. On some fucked up way. It's all the way it's supposed to be. And then, you know, I think this is what, I don't know why, but humans seem to be dead set on evolving technology.

And I don't know why, but I have a feeling it, it leads us somewhere better in the end. Of course. And you know, this phase we're in right now is, um, it's like the teenage years. It's a scary phase. It's like when you first get your first car to drive, but you're still a dumb ass. You're just a kid. And you're, you know, I know I have teenage kids and I remember giving them the keys like fucking good luck, man. Fingers crossed. That's us as a society. And we got

to go through that. And there probably will be a few car crashes. But I think we'll get through it. We seem to always get through it. And this will probably be, if you think about a future, a better future for humanity, I think we're going to need AI. I mean, we do have some major problems that we can't just beyond human intelligence in a way we need computing power at extreme. We need quantum computers. We have to solve these problems.

So if we're going to get there, wherever there is, we kind of need it. So I think it's good. And it's an exciting time to be alive. It's like being in a sci-fi movie right now, or I The development is the, um, I don't know the English term. The, the, the, the postmodernism is like, like, the curve of new inventions and developments. I mean, if you watch from the phones in the car to the mobile phone, from the mobile phone to the smaller mobile phones, you know, the ones without the antenna

on it, to smartphones, to tablets. And you know, as you used the term earlier, the cascade, it's like it's getting quicker and quicker. It's like the curve of new inventions is not exponential, but it's going like this. was like Huge. Ten years. Fuck, I Can't even imagine. In the 19th century, ten years was not, you know, there was not that much of a development. Yeah. I mean, I'm not a historian, maybe a historian would disagree, but from new inventions, I think Yeah.

I would totally agree with what you're saying. Like we have no idea what's It's exciting to have the unknown. Yeah. It's like before they discovered the North American continent, there was still undiscovered land, undiscovered place. We've done all most of that. But now we have this new frontier, which is an undiscovered future that no one can totally Well, the good thing is in history showed us that development is always like painful, but in the end, we get

I agree. Very cool. Well, let me ask you a little bit about, you know, like I said, in my introduction, I'm always interested to hear what's going on in the world, you know, and not, you know, everything from economy to to the tattoo industry, um, the ink laws, like what's, what's going on in Germany. Tell me about Germany. Tell me about Europe. Like how's the econ? I, well, you said earlier the economy everywhere, struggling a little bit here to high inflation and uh, yeah, just strange

economy after COVID. But you guys happen to be positioned in Stuttgart, which is right by, Huge amount of manufacturing, all the big cars and all this. So you guys are in this little bubble of a strong economic bubble. So that's great. You guys got lucky there. So far so good. But maybe beyond your bubble, like how are things economically over there in Europe? Getting Getting harder. And it's more like, it's

not that place anymore to be that unique. You know, you have to follow the big things who are still running and you have to add on yourself in a system which is still working. And there's not that much place for like small businesses in art crafts. And there's not that much space or place for trying to be individual in this whole economic in Germany or in Europe in special. So everybody's now trying to find a way to follow the masses and to get along with it and maybe not to be pushed out, you

know. So that's why everybody is still quiet and they're trying to be tolerant about all the things that are happening because they still want to be part of society. And you're trying to be open to every offer that is given to you to keep the situation as it is and don't go down anymore or even more. We're quite humble right now. We don't make like loud words and stuff like that. There is no place right now for something like art revolution or

stuff. We have the courage, but we're keeping it in the back because right now it's about focusing on going in the right direction, trying to rescue everything and trying to be stable. And that's what Well, in my opinion, just like to answer the question, like, I think it's a lot going on. I mean, starting, you just said it Now let's talk about that for a second, because we hear... That was wild. We just hear the rumors about what, you know, basically you can't

Well, you can say, you can, you're actually pretty well informed, and there was green, blue 7 and green 15, I think, the raw pigment, they were They were forbidden through the ECHA, which is the European Association of Chemistry, as far as I'm well informed. Anyway, there were roughly 60% of the inks were forbidden or were not allowed to be used anymore. And of course, there was a lot of replacement coming after as tattooing became like a bigger industry also in

Europe. We had this moment when the company's shot, okay, they say, okay, this red is not available anymore, or it's really illegal to have and to use and to work with. So we have this one, which is kind of a similar tone. Yeah. But I mean, I don't have to tell you about how important it is to have like a good ink, like how fluid it is, how it heals through

and stuff like that. And I think the experience the tattooers had over the years got completely destroyed by this, with like, how do I use this red with this orange, for example, and this yellow. So they just used a new palette of inks and said, okay, Here, this is what you have to deal with. Yeah. And then start all over again. And I have quite a few friends that said, well, to be honest, quality wise, this new inks are not as good as the ones we had before. Yeah. And so.

There were people who stopped tattooing because their style was so colorful and it's just not that bright anymore. And they were not able to use it because they're in focus because they always do like sketchbook or aquarelle style tattoos and they stopped tattooing. Is there a big underground movement where people are just, I'm sure there's They're super easy to get. Let's be honest. I mean, I see all these guys out I feel like every tattooer in Turkey is like this crazy

So they're getting their shit somewhere. I mean, we can order stuff from the US, but we're not able officially to You can get it, but if someone was to walk into your shop and Yeah, but I'm lucky because like, yeah, black is all you guys are both black and gray guys. So it was easier for us. I mean, there were also a few, few inks in the, in the black, black and gray, um, taken from the market, but,

um, you're still left with some good stuff. Yeah, a lot. Yeah, I I'm sorry to say, but for us as a tattoo artist who had the times with the full color, choosable, yeah, and from every company, whatever we want to do is from US intents, like all the good stuff. And what was the problem in the end? It doesn't make sense because all the people who got tattooed in the past, they didn't fall and they were dead because of it. They're still living and

they're still healthy and nothing happens. So I didn't understand if that is not proven enough that these colors, they don't do anything to your body. So we were kind of like angry about it because The decisions who were made, like in fact that the law is written this way, these are from people who It is kind of ironic, because you can still buy a pack of cigarettes in Europe, right?

I like the way they dealt with that in Europe. You get a pack of cigarettes, there's a picture of somebody's black lungs opened up, and it tells you basically, if you smoke these, it will kill you. Yeah, but do it. But you can buy as much as you want. They should do the same thing with ink. Yeah. It's fine. You think these are bad for us? Just write it right on the bottle and anybody who... If the client agrees, what's Yeah. But we are, again, at this point, I would say also

with the forbidding the inks, it's how it's developing. I mean, I think it was Andreas Koenen, a very, very, very great guy. Hi, Andy. He said, well, you wanted tattooing to be big, like he was not addressing people like us, I guess. You wanted tattooing to be big, you wanted it to be loud, you wanted to be like in the center of society, you wanted to

get out of this underdog zone. Well, there you have it. This is also like, this is not only positive side effects, it's also We came into the mainstream, and once you're in the mainstream, now the attention of the FDA and our government is, look, whereas before when we were smaller, everyone just left us alone. So yeah, it is, who knows, maybe it's coming to America. I hear rumors. There are some things in Congress, and I think it's

I hope not, really, because that was really... Get Everybody come here at Guru Tattoo, you get great tattoos with great colors. No really, because this, I don't wish that, because I saw it and being part of this tattooing thing, whatever you want to call it, industry, family, whatever. I just saw it from the outside what it did to many color artists. was quite heavy because I was, I'm actually pretty optimist, even though I maybe don't look like

it for some people. I was always like, yeah, it's going to be all right. I said the same, you remember with COVID? When you said, oh man, I'm scared. And I said, yeah, it's going to be all right. It was a few weeks later, lockdown, you know, I was like, what the fuck is going on right now? And I was the same also with the inks. I said, hey, come on, guys, you will see there will be solutions. It will, it's going to work out. No, it did not work out.

You really got a letter where they said you are from now on not allowed to use these colors doesn't matter or these inks doesn't matter how much stash you have left over and for the suppliers was also because there is not only this big big suppliers. There's also small, nice, friendly suppliers, like... Out of business. Yeah, for them it was a catastrophe, of course. You also, this is, you know... I think that they just wanted to our tattoos match our weather, like black and

They just wanted everything to be black and grey. Beautiful grey, dark, German, brown, grey aesthetics. Don't be that colorful in Germany. Come on. Be black and gray. Don't enjoy life. That's funny. It's

If you're still gonna have people who want colorful tattoos, and they're not gonna be able to go to a professional studio to get it, so you're gonna have somebody over here. And then eventually, maybe those guys just start making their own inks again. And now you see, you know, it's just, yeah, I don't think it's the right solution. I think you basically just allow people to use the inks we've used for 30, 40, 50 years. I know a lot of guys way older than me completely covered

in these tattoos, and I know lots of people like that. I don't know of one of them that had a issue for those zincs. Not no one. And I know those people don't know people. So I mean, it's anecdotal, but I would imagine if they were hurting people, I would You would find out. There would have been some correlation, you know. This is what I also didn't understand about the whole thing. Like, there's no

proof. We had this younger Swedish, I think it was a Swedish, but this I have to research about, where they said there might be a correlation between a certain kind of cancer and tattoos. But they also, within the research they made, they said, yeah, but this is not, You know how it is

with statistics. It's like, you know, you have this correlation coefficient But they said, yeah, but the writers of it, they said themselves wrote in it like, Hey, Now don't make any false news, don't make this like a correlation, in case you're tattooed your risk is higher, it's not like that. And They don't know and until they know it should just be left alone. And if they want to make people sign away acknowledging

that we don't, I'll acknowledge that, maybe we don't now. Yeah, It would be a funny story if somebody's interviewed in the hospital, like smoking and drinking and said, I'm dying because of my tattoos. Yeah. Well, Man, well look, let's wrap this up. Thank you guys for coming all the way from Germany to visit me, and I'm really honored that you're here. As I said before, I look up to both your work. Fantastic tattooing. Thank you. Fucking awesome. But before we end this, we

could do this, like, what's next? Now, we've heard from you a little bit, Philip, about this new app you're working on. Very cool. Yeah. Anything else? Yeah. I'm working on some other inventions to make tattooing for us tattooers, just like a little bit more. You have some alternatives. I can't really talk about it, about the main topic, which is based on this idea. But I have a patent pending on some usable stuff for us tattooers to make a concept more

great transferring to the body. If it's okay, I will talk to you in the future because it's just only two months and then the patent and the utility model is just safe for international and then we can talk about it. But I'm always working beside my artwork for great ideas to make my life as a tattooer and all the good people around me. Just working on ideas to make our job more exact, more

concrete, more and better. I'm just trying to develop my working day and to just transport ideas from my brain to real life. So I'm loving tattooing so much. I just want to commit my whole physical and my whole mental power in it. I'm so dedicated to the tattooing that I'm trying to do everything I have, every idea, mental and all the actions by physics to the first thing in my life is just tattooing. I love it really much. That's

No, I hear what you're saying. You're using all your experience to create products and services that are just going to make the industry better. You're

You're giving back to the art you love. I'm just helping my colleagues. That's cool. I just want everybody who's a tattooer to feel these moments like, ah, there's somebody who's making maybe our life better or maybe just giving us options to Very cool. Very cool. What about you, Markus? Anything coming up for you? For me, to be honest, I'm just happy and enjoying traveling again because I haven't done that in a while. Now I'm on conventions. I'm going to Aachen, which is a very nice, very sweet

convention. It's in Germany. And after that, I'm going to Barcelona. And then after that, there will be the nice Paris convention. So to be honest, end of my daily work. I'm very blessed with my customers. I must really say that. I'm really thankful because I had it yesterday with Brittany about it, like these things like one of those. to do them. There's no need for it, because all the things I can do, people allow me to do on them, I can do them the way I would wear it myself. So it's actually

a pretty good life. It's a great life, I must say. Actually, it's very boring. I must say it's kind of boring. It's like, I'm just looking forward for what I've been doing the last 10 years, let's say. And, um, and it's cool. It's, I don't get bored. I don't get tired of Well, it's good that you have, you recognize and have gratitude for the special place you are right. And we all are right now. It's

easy to get, um, Mired up and think that, oh, I've got to go tattoo today. Come on. You get Yeah, me neither. But some people say those things and I think, huh. You should go work at an insurance company for a year and then come Right on. Well, say it out loud. Where can people find That's L-O-C-C-O-M-O-T-I-V-E tattoos on Instagram. Okay. And what about you, Marcus? And me, Marcus with a C, then this under slash... Underscore Giuliano, underscore Stolls,

underscore... You gotta work on that one. That's a long one, dude. Jesus Christ. Underscore tattoo. So Marcus with a C, underscore Giuliano with a G, underscore Stolls, underscore tattoo. And we'll have all that on the show notes and everything, but it's good to say it out loud. Well, thank you again, you guys. I hope you have a good vacation while you guys are here in sunny San Diego. Hot, sunny. It's very hot here right now. And I'll be seeing you both in March back in

Germany. Yes. In Frankfurt. Never been. You guys are going to All right. Of course. I'm going to hold you to that. Thank you for having Awesome. Thank you. And thank you guys all for tuning in. Keep those DMs coming, all those messages and little love notes you're sending to me, really keep the show alive. It's a lot of work doing this thing, but I'm still really enjoying it because of all the

people that have been writing me and telling me that they're enjoying it. So please share, like, subscribe, and stay tuned in for our next one. Chats and Taps with Aaron De