Love, Loss, and Life Lessons featuring Scott Campbell

I think AI is going to like make rendering much more efficient. You'll be able to present 20 different ideas to your clients instead of just two. I think it'll speed up a lot of the process. But I do think at the end of the day, it's another human's like taste and like kind of concept that, you Welcome lovers of art, creativity, tattoos. philosophy, spirituality. I mean, if you listen to my show, you probably end at least one

of those or all of those. And as you guys know, I, I, I get all kinds of folks on the show and a lot of them are artists and quite a few are tattoo artists. And so that's, that's rad. I'm a tattoo artist. So why wouldn't I want to do that? But you know, some stand out much more than others. And some it's for me, it's their portfolio, man, just their, their, the work they've created as craftsmen, as tattooers, it's just the shining emblem of what they are. Maybe they're quiet and shy, so

you don't know much else about them. The gentleman I'm with today has a few layers to him that I believe are wildly interesting. He is a tattoo artist of 28 years, so we're from the same generation. We kind of started in that same era. Some of the folks I talk to are tenure tattooers. They just don't understand what it was like in the late 90s,

early 2000s. I like that. So he's worked in the street shop levels all the way up to honing himself into a very distinctive Voice which is a really hard thing to do nowadays with so many people on instagram and everyone's copying each other's work or emulating each other's work and so to have a portfolio we like that. That's definitely i know who did that tattoo he's got that going on he's got his own podcast he's tattooed a lot of celebrities mark jacobs johnny depp jennifer aniston. How

is tattoo cartel members. Leaders of nations, which we'll see if he's willing to talk about that one. That's a little, you know, VIP style stuff. So he was the owner of save tattoo, New York city for a long time, 2003 to 2020. He has since COVID happened. He moved back out here to Los Angeles and he has saved LA now here in Los Angeles. So those are just some basic highlights with all that being said, please welcome my guest today, Scott Campbell. Thanks

so much for having me. I appreciate it. It just worked out. You know, we're up here for the Pasadena convention. I am at least. And uh, yeah, I told you the story. Somebody knew somebody that knew you and text you Great. Yeah. I'm thrilled. No, I mean, I love your show. You know what I mean? Like you always are, have such a thoughtful approach to everything. And I'm, yeah,

Thank you for the compliment and yours as well. One of the things I told you on the way up the elevator to come up here tonight, today, Was a you know i could tell by listening to your podcast and other videos i found on youtube you're looking for what the real cause of things are you're not a surface thinker you're digging underneath that try to figure stuff out relationships emotions. the art of tattooing, industry of tattooing, all the things I heard you talk about.

So that's kind of me too. Like I'm fine sitting here and just doing a play by play of your career and that's cool, but I'm always Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I heard you doing it. So I'm like that guy, I definitely want to sit down with Scott and it didn't know it'd be now, but here we are. So cheers to that. Right. Hey everybody, just want to take a moment and give a huge shout out to my sponsor,

Sullen Clothing. If you're a fan of tattoo art and art in general, they make some of the coolest t-shirts, hoodies, and hats with some of the best art from some of the best tattoo artists in the world. Check them out, sullenclothing.com. Ryan, Jeremy, good friends of mine. Thank you for your support. And now back to the show. I do want to get deep as I just said, but maybe it would be fun for me and everyone listening just to hear a little bit about how

you got where you're at. I mean, we're tattooers, unusual thing to be very uncommon thing to be as an artist, maybe getting more common, but still a bit oblique. So maybe we could just hear a little, you know, bring us to your journey, your young man and stuff's happening and somehow you end up art and tattooing and, and now you're here in LA doing what Yeah, I mean, I feel like, you know, I happen to bond tattooing like most

tattooers did where we just didn't fit in the world. You know, I feel like tattooing is kind of like the this big metaphor for the, you know, the misfit table at the high school lunchroom. You know, we're like, I don't know. I don't fit in with the jocks. I don't fit in with the preps. I don't fit in with those. But like, there's this one table of miscellaneous, you know, and I feel like tattooers are kind of just the miscellaneous people that

found this their way here. But yeah, I was, you know, in the 90s, probably why you call your shop saved. Yeah, well, we were like saved from having to have real jobs. But yeah, you know, in the nineties, I was just a little grimy punk rock kid and, you know, would make my burrito money from,

you know, painting leather jackets, like everybody, all the, all the punks, a little like battle jackets, you know, I do the little like white out. you know, Motorhead logo or whatever on the on the back. And then from painting jacket, jean jackets and leather jackets just ended up carving pictures in people's arms. And, you know, did it a few times and then started, you know, charging money for

it. And, you know, then swindled my way into a street shop and You found my way from there i want to pause you because i heard that swindling stories said somewhere else it was that you had done. Six or seven or eight tattoo done more but you pick the six or seven eight that are your best and you knew getting a job or of any kind was tough with that level of work in portfolio so you walked in and told the guy. You were a full-fledged professional tattooer,

I've been tattooing years. Years I've been tattooing in Texas, in Houston, Texas, at this shop that nobody's ever heard of. But yeah, the airline lost my luggage. All I had on my camera was the last seven tattoos I did, and here's those photos. Like, are you looking for anybody? And It worked. I mean, I just like that part of tattooing. There's a little bit of pirate gypsy vibes always flowing through

Oh, for sure. It's kind of cool. No, I mean, it's definitely like a, you know, a scrappy, like I remember at that time, you know, I got a tattoo machine. I had been getting tattooed by Juan Puente. I worked with Juan for a lot of years. Juan's one of the best humans. I mean, hands down, you will not find anyone in the world that I gotta stop you there, because I haven't had a chance to give him a great compliment, and I want to do it right

now. Juan Puente, if you ever hear this, and maybe I'll just send you a clip of it, but I started working at Avalon Tattoo in San Diego, Juan was there, and Juan was one of the people who was really in If you had one, oh. Yeah. And, uh, but really the biggest thing was when he left Avalon, he told the owner, Patty Kelly, if anyone calls for me, you send him to Aaron. And I was just kind of getting my, and all of a sudden I was busy. It was all of

Juan's clients. So I kind of like, Oh dude, a huge thank But yeah, he's an amazing dude. He told me, you know, I had like a couple of nationals machines that I got out of the back of, you know, the National Catalog, but my first real tattoo machine I got from him, that was like my big purchase when he was at 222, you know, and that like. With Eddie Deutsch. Yeah,

Yeah, no, I got to San Francisco a little bit, a little bit after that. I landed in San Francisco in like 98, 99, but you know, I got tattooed by all those guys, by Rasher and Sylvia and all of Yeah. Yeah. I was scared of that place. I ran to San Diego. I'll be Yeah. No, it was a very small fish in a really big pond. But yeah, but Juan, he sold me my first real machine. He's always been like just a guiding light. Just morally, artistically, technically, like he's just, he's

He is, he is. So we were going down this journey. Is there I mean, yeah, there's been so many chapters. So I started tattooing, you know, and that was when, like, I remember starting tattooing and all I wanted to do, like, my life's ambition was just to do a decent Tweety Bird for 60 bucks. I was like, if I can just do one little Tweety Bird or Tasmanian Devil a day, I can live off that. You know, I can survive. And that was, I just like, I wanted to

do the cleanest fucking Tweety Bird I could. You know, and from there, just, fell in love with it. I mean, you know, like it was, you know, it was late 90s, like street shop culture, you know, just like making your own needles till 3am and dealing with drunks. And, and, uh, but I loved it. You know what I mean? It was like the most free I've ever felt. And then yeah, from there, you know, I got to travel, you know, like from picture machine, I met Mao and Kathy who were in Madrid

and went and worked with them for a while. And, you know, then we just travel all around anywhere. that would accept me I'd go work. And then I landed in New York at Eastside Inc. Back in the day when it like Andrea Elstam was still there. And that was like, I didn't realize what a city was until I landed in New York, you know, like I was resigned to just be this wandering gypsy

kid forever. And then I landed in New York. And I was like, Oh, this is a place where you can sit still, but still feel like you're moving, you know, because it's such a river of humanity, and just fell in love with it. And then, you know, ended up opening up a shop. And then once I opened a shop, that's when it turned into like a career, you know, all of a sudden, people knew where

to find me. I started, you know, tattooing all these like really, you know, powerful creatives in downtown New York, at a moment when New York was like the center of the world, you know, I didn't even realize it, then did a lot of like fine artwork, you know, was really kind of focused on doing fine art. And that was a wild kind of transition. Yeah, and then kind of But tattooing stuck with you. You're bouncing all

Tattooing is it. I mean, you know, like like most people who have done it so long, like I've tried to quit tattooing 10 times, but it's like it's my hands know how to do that better than anything else. Yeah. Well, that's cool. And I know we're, we're, you know, there's a lot of crazy stories wrapped up in there. I'm sure along the way. Same story. You just told my story. We could just, you know, I could say that's my story. Yeah. Similar. I mean, different. I guess I settled down.

You traveled a lot more. That's different for me. And we'll get into what tattoo means to me and you, mostly you today, but once you really start to feel that, it takes a few years for you to start sensing this deeper level of something happening, and then a few years later you start recognizing it and being able to even articulate it. And now for me, after 30 years, I still don't fully grasp it, but I'm, for me, 100% convinced extremely beautiful and powerful art form. And I don't think I could

replace it with painting or... Hey, look, you're a painter. Crayola is one of my best buds. You're rad. I'm not saying tattooing is better than painting, but for us, I think we felt that and we still feel that. Yeah, I mean, I can I have a lot to say about it. I mean, I love tattooing. You know, I feel like it's one of the last real like folk art, you know, like it's, it's beautiful for

it's like intimacy, and it's spontaneity. And you know, the, the kind of the fact that it can't be mass produced, you know, but at the same time, like the things that make it beautiful can make it frustrating to build a life around it. You know, like you see our cultural relevance, like tattooing culturally is like so you know, like on Instagram, like, even, you know, people would know tattoos in Ohio, you know, follow tattoo accounts, you know,

because it's it's so engaging. and romantic, but we work like plumbers and electricians. We just sell our life by the hour. It's not like a singer or a songwriter or a painter who will write a song, create an image, and then that song will live a life. They'll be like, oh, they're going to make royalties off of that. The bigger the cultural relevance of that song, the more revenue they

make. Whereas us, it's like, you know, it took three hours. Like you would never go to a songwriter and be like, Oh, like how long did it take you, you know, to write that song? And you're like, ah, I wrote it, you know, two hours on an airplane or sitting on the toilet. And I'm like, cool, here's two hours of your time. Like now we're going to, you know, it's, it's interesting seeing like how culturally powerful we are, but the ceiling

is still pretty low compared to other creative mediums. Yeah, I agree.

I just, that's why I sometimes refer to it as a craft because I feel like, yeah, it's like a craft. Like you don't meet many people, craftsmen in general that are, live in the life of a famous painter Yeah. When I say folk art, I don't mean it dismissively. I mean that with a sense of honor, because there's a purity to it. The fact that tattoos don't have resale value makes it pure. If I do paintings or sculptures that sell, I'm worried

about what happens if they go to auction and the resale value. There's all this pressure on it that can limit it. Whereas a tattoo, all that matters is that the person who stands up and looks at it in the mirror is fucking psyched. That's it. But that's a really, it's the most gratifying thing I do. I'll

paint a painting and somebody will buy it and I'll be like, oh cool, you bought that. But if I do a tattoo on somebody and they get up and they're like, tears in their eyes, they're like, I love it so much, that's the best feeling in You have one fan for that piece of art for life, for their life. But man, they are loyal. Okay, you're doing right. Why wouldn't you be? It's so personal. A painting, you can, you know, you can sell it or give it away, but you know, that's

It is. It is a weird job. It is. I love it. Yeah. There's something going on there. Energy exchanges and strange things occur during tattoo sessions. I do a lot of large work. A lot of my clients are back, butt, legs. So Three years with somebody off and on. That's a relationship. Dude, you know everything. Like I'm telling them my problems. They're telling me their problems. Yeah. I look back on what was so beautiful about it. And it's really my friends that came out

of that. The people I got to meet, I never would have met. any of these folks. I probably wouldn't have met you today, you know, if it wasn't for it. So that, the relationships that came out of it is the thing I like the most. Why I did the show, because I could highlight the relationships that came out of it. Right. And portfolios, it's cool. I'm proud of my portfolio, but it seems secondary to that. Yeah. Yeah, well, look, so on that note, you know, this idea of

tattoos and their non permanency. And

you met, you said it earlier, like everyone talks about the permanency of tattoos, but in reflect, you know, relationship to the art world, it's actually not very permanent, you know, sculptures and paintings and all these other things people make last Centuries. I mean, I have sculptures in museums that'll be there longer than I'm alive. You know, when

people talk about tattoos, they're like, Oh, you know, but it's permanent. I was like, it's not I was like, I was like, if you have the ego to think that you're permanent, you know, then you might think that way. But I'm like, you know, I'll do a tattoo and it goes and gets sunburned or run over by a bus or something, you know, like,

It is. Yeah, it's a good way to look at it. But the thing that I heard you talk about on another podcast i believe was you as an artist as a young artist you know this call cd call perfectionism whatever was happening free this is a common story for a lot of artists you have an idea in your head to go to put it on paper, it doesn't ever come out like it's in your head good luck with that but in so it's frustrating you scrap it and then

you never finish anything right never finishing anything. But this idea around how, as an artist, developing tattooing forced you... Tattooing is my Ritalin, for sure. Well, you have no option. You can't throw it... Yeah, I, for sure, was one of those ADD kids in the 90s, you know, that they just fed Ritalin to. And I did. I had the attention span of a gerbil. I'd draw something, I'd start halfway, but it wasn't until I started tattooing that I ever really finished a piece

of anything, you know? Because then it's like, I didn't mean it to be that way. And then, um, you know, but if I'm tattooing a dragon, I get halfway and I have that same reaction. You know, there's a guy who's going to knock my teeth out if I don't do a good job. So it's like, I got to, I got to knock this dragon out of the park. So like, I suck it up and be like, you know, like I'm having that internal panic, but

I, I get through it. And by the end of it, I wipe it off and I'm like, it's not exactly what I envisioned, but like, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, I'm pretty proud of it. I am. And like going through that process a thousand times, you know, like finally burned it into my head that like, Oh, Oh, a creative act is a leap of faith. You know what I mean? Like, like your initial idea is just a place to start. It's never, it's very rarely the final product, you

know, like it's just, that's just what nudges you into motion. And

Yeah, no, that's a big one. You know, yeah, I think that wads people up a lot, you know, when things aren't going as they visualize them to go. And oftentimes, if you're just patient enough, it's probably going somewhere better. Yeah. Just ride it, you know? And it's just cool how you struggled in that area. I think in the same talk, I heard you talking about relationships. You

I'm not good at it. Yeah. Like dating's rough. I mean, I love, love, you know, we were talking about a little bit before, but yeah, like I've always been, uh, you know, like in the tattoo shop, you know, when like Tom and Jenny come in and, you know, Tom's like, Oh, I want to get Jenny's name. You know, she's like the love of my life. You know, a lot of times the tattooer will be like, well, wait, are you sure? Like Jenny's the one how long you guys been together? And

there's like a spiel you give them. Like, I've always been like the opposite. Whenever you're like, if you love Jenny today, fucking do it. Let's tattoo it. Let's do it bigger, like whatever. And yeah, because it's I think there's a value in giving yourself to something completely, whether it's a relationship or work of art, like to develop the ability to dive into something headfirst, not knowing how it's going to end up is really powerful and like

one of the most courageous acts ever. I always celebrate people getting, you know, significant others' names tattooed on them because it's, yeah, the odds are fucking stacked against you. Like there's a 99% chance you're not going to live happily ever after. But better to have

tried and like really done it than to, you know, be 50 years old and having never really given yourself to anything. Like I got, you

I've got an ex-wife on me. Yeah, yeah, I felt the same way and in tattoo shops when I was younger a tattooer and everyone's trying to it was like the spiel everyone got I was always the guy like sure where Yeah, I thought it was Jenny sounds lovely I also like I thought it was so cool to be a dude with a bunch of ex-girlfriend names on you I'm like, that's fucking hard. Yeah, let's do it If you want a new one next week, we'll put a red line over

that one. Give you another one. I just didn't see it that same way. And now I think naively enough, I think there was a part of me that was feeling what you just articulated. Yeah. The idea of like, look, you're, you're obviously super pumped on this person right now. Enough to come in here and ask for the name to I feel honored to be a part part of that love, that honeymoon phase, exciting. You're just obsessed with this person. I feel honored that I get to put her

name on you. And be a part of that experience. Yeah, I'm excited too. Feel the energy coming off of them. Yeah. And so for that reason, I was like, let's go. This feels good. You're in a good mood. I can't wait to do it versus, you know, There's some tattoos where they're

sad and melancholy. You have to do those too, but this was a whole other thing where I'm Yeah, in any creative endeavor, caution rarely serves you Well, you know, earlier we were talking about your relationship, the mother of your children, and you said it was a really interesting story, and maybe I should just let you tell it, but I don't even want to say what you guys ended up doing, because it's such a novel

idea that I'd never heard before. But maybe you could just, because I think it relates a little bit back to what you're talking about here, which is if I could just sum it up before you go is not only do you have to have enough courage to get that ball rolling and take that leap of faith to try an idea that you don't know if it's going to work out. It could be love, could be a business, could

be a drawing. You also most likely at some point have to learn to accept how it's going or where it So that, that's the real courage, which I think when you tell this story, that's what I hear in it. Like what beautiful courage to just not go into the auto responsive. This didn't go where

I appreciate that. You know, cause I think, you know, it's so easy to have, you know, divorce tainted with, with a certain amount of guilt, especially when there's kids involved, you know, cause you don't, You never walk down the aisle being like, you know, expecting to get divorced one day. You know, my ex-wife, Lake Bell, if

anybody's looking for an ex-wife, she's the best ex-wife in the world. She's amazing. But, um, no, you know, it's like it is that, you know, like we were together for 10 years and there's no part of that that I consider a failure. You know, I fully see it as like a successful marriage that ran its course. We first like said the D word out loud in 2020 when everybody else was splitting up. And, um, You know, we had two

kids at the time. And when we first said the word divorce, I think we both envisioned what that meant to other people and be like, Oh, now we're gonna be like that family, or now we're gonna be like that, like, fuck, like, do I have to hate you now? You're like, are we gonna fight over everything. But one of the things we did that was so powerful was we had a divorce ceremony. you know, our therapists that we were working through, you know, I mean, we still go to

therapy every other week, every other Friday, we still do therapy. We're still raising kids together. Yeah, you know, just to like get stuff out. But we did a divorce ceremony where, you know, it was like just the bookend to us getting married. And, you know, we had our witnesses there, like our best friends there. And, you know, we sat there and like held hands and looked in her eye and just be like, our lives are inextricably connected through our children. And like, that is

the priority of my life. And I was like, When you're on your deathbed, I will be there. There's no part of this next chapter that doesn't consider you. And the feeling was mutual. And I'm so grateful for it. It took a lot of time and patience and energy, but I really feel it in our kids. you

know, like, like, I would never say anything bad about their mother. And she would never say anything bad at me, because like, my kids need to feel like they have the greatest mother in the world, you know, and it's super important for me. And, you know, like, even if you reduce it to basic math, you know, it's like, my daughter's, you know, 10 years old, usually turning

10 next month. So like, you know, when she's 18, I mean, from what I know of her now, she's going to be out the door living in New York, you know, the moment she can, but you know, from 10 to 18, like that's, that's eight Christmases, you know, I get with her at home. And if mom and I can kind of coexist and

collaborate and have all those together, I get to be a part of all eight of them. And if we can't, if we have to split everything down the middle and like, then I only get four more Christmases with my daughter and like, I can't, I'll do Beautiful dude. Anyone out there, if you're going through that divorce, a divorce ceremony. Redefine what the relationship will be after you guys aren't romantically involved anymore. Because there's so much more,

That's just paperwork. It really is about the children. Because you are connected for life, and your bullshit, if you can't figure it out, we all know this, but I'd never heard of anyone really consciously articulating what it would look like after the divorce, and being forgiving enough, and kind enough, and honoring the first 10 years. It's always baffling to me how someone could love somebody for so long. I mean, for years telling their friends

The flip there was always so strange. Yeah. But if you dug down deep enough, you found that I figured it out. I mean, there's resentment because he- Yeah. I don't know. Maybe sometimes there is a reason not to have a divorce ceremony, right? What I'm hearing from you is I'm assuming there wasn't massive tragedy and Yeah. I mean, I'm grateful. You're like, yeah, there was no foul play, you know, no one was like, no one, you know, was betrayed, you

know, and, um, But even if there is, you know what I mean? Like there's like, there's, we're humans doing the best we can, you know what I mean? Like, and, and even if, you know, my ex-wife was a dick, you know, like it's still, it's worth, I mean, it's funny. Cause like now, like, you know, in dating as a dad, you know, I've gone on dates with single moms who just talk shit about their ex-husband the whole time. And I'm like, I'm like, you have a little kid here, you know what I mean? It's

not about you. Yeah, he's a dick. Yes, he did you wrong. Yes. Do you want to be right or wrong? Or do you want to acknowledge that this is this kid's world that you're curating and creating? So it's like, what's the emotional environment you want them to see I'm not sure like it is. Yeah, therapy helps, whatever. Interesting though. I like that. That was beautiful when you told me that earlier and I had to bring it up. So sorry to put you on the spot, but I know you sound okay

with it. Yeah. I'm proud of it. Yeah. Well, and you know, this podcast, Stupid Things for Love. Yeah. Is it, I've only heard of couple. Is it, Are

I'm not trying to do anything. I mean, it's like a creative act. I'm like, I don't know. I only know step one. I don't know what step two and three are. And yeah, the name of it came from a title of an exhibition that I've always really loved, which was the smartest things I ever did were stupid things for love. And I think similarly, you know, to the reason why you're here is that, you know, so much of what our job entails is

emotional and connection with humans. And but yet, the way our craft is broadcast to the world is just through a little photo on instagram you know and you're like there's so much more like there's so much more beauty and depth to like what i do during my day than just that and it's a it's this desire to kind of put that out there you know because like we you know like we were talking about with clients like you know, in order to really

do your job, like you have to sit there and connect with people. And if you connect with someone, pretty much anyone for 45 minutes, like you can't help but love them, you know? And I just, I found myself appreciating so many people that I wouldn't have given the time of day if I passed them on the street, be like nothing in common with that guy. And then you sit down and you're like, Oh my God, like you've lived a really beautiful life, you know? And I just, I would never consider it

if you didn't want this rose on your arm, you know? So just trying to like, have that be a bit more of what I put out in the world instead of just the Yeah, we did talk about earlier, same for me. I'm trying to do the same thing because there is so much more to this beautiful art form than just the end result, which is the tattoo. There's all the stuff you already mentioned. This is a good platform to sit down and talk with people. I have some of my clients on, you know, and it's always

kind of fun. You've done a few years with, and we get to have like this moment where we acknowledge each other's love for one another. It's kind of strange, like, I love you too, man. A little bromance. Or even if it's a female, it's not sexual. It's just, No one can deny that there's this link for life and it's a strange thing. So yeah, same thing and at 28 years I'm sure you're doing a lot of reflection on what it all meant and what it all is. It's cool you came up with that.

Yeah. Well, luckily it's not too hard. I mean, 15 years ago to fire up a production like I have here sitting in front of you was kind Exactly. We need more of that. I mean, yeah, I don't know if I should go down, I won't go down this, but it's just, you know, we are definitely living in a world where we're physically, you know, everyone heading down to the pub at night to share the ideas with one another is fading. Everyone's on their phone. And, and so we got to

replace it with something. And I do think podcasts and long format conversations I hope the attention spans can come along with them. You know, Yeah, right. I mean, I don't know. I think a lot of people that I know that listen to like a Joe Rogan episode that's three and a half hours, it's like me of guys my age or, you know, but will my 13 year old daughter be interested in this show that when it goes an hour and a half, I don't know. I watch her

on her phone with the fricking screens flipping around. Sometimes I'm like, Oh, you know, Yeah that that's a rabbit hole with you have kids too and i've i don't even know if i want to go there and it's just too obvious. Yeah we don't need those we all know they don't need them but how do you get them away and how do you rip them out of culture but what i maybe wanted to move more towards because i found it so novel and interesting was.

You know, a lot of people nowadays are kind of trying to figure out the tattoo landscape, because it's shifting. And it's always been shifting, but I think you would agree that the recent shift is dramatic and speeding up or whatever. It's really changing fast. And I don't mean that bad, because I could name a bunch of good shit and bad, like anything.

There's youth change, there's positives and negatives. But you had brought up an idea that was so interesting to me, which is, you know, maybe people just aren't getting as much tattoos because the young people of this generation, maybe they don't identify with their physical form as much because their image to the world is projected through their social media platforms and whatever else. So the need to like do your physical

Yeah. I mean, I see for sure, you know, cause like it came, you know, I kind of put that little blurb out there cause you know, I hear, you know, so many tattooers, you know, becoming disheartened and frustrated with, you know, this decline in business, you know, that things are slowing down and there's so much anger pointed towards new tattooers, you know, and like, you know, all the people tattooing out of their kitchen

and, you know, like ordering tattoo machines on Amazon and, you know, YouTube tutorials showing you how to do tattoos and, And yeah, like that's a bit of it, but also it really is, I think, and maybe having children and seeing the difference between their childhood and my childhood helps highlight this, but I do think people's physical identity isn't as significant as

their digital identity anymore. You know, like, like, you know, when we got tattooed, it was like, you know, you'd get a tattoo and you're like, fuck man, like, let's go to the bar, you know what I mean? And like roll up our sleeves and Like I want credit for this. Whereas now it's like, you know, you post it on Instagram and um, that's where you get your credit. Yeah. That's where you get your credit. That's where, that's your pride of ownership. You know, that's where,

that's where you get like your return investment. It's like showing it off on there, you know, as people live, you know, their digital selves take priority over their physical selves. They might not invest so much time and money and energy into, affecting their physical cells. Because you know, like, like a Snapchat filter that puts fucking bunny rabbit ears on your head might do the trick instead of having to

go get the tattoo. But yeah, I mean, I definitely see that shift, you know, in my kids, you know, I wish I could put that out there with a solution, or, you know, some sense of optimism. But like, I don't know what that means. But I just see things, you know, like, I see it kind of drifting in

It makes sense. I don't know. I'm trying to, I'm trying to reflect. Do I see that too? Maybe I do. I mean, I definitely noticed like people seem to, I mean, everyone's been slower. I mean, I don't want to brag, but for some reason we're hanging on over guru and I think it's just crazy marketing and you know, I fight harder nowadays. I, you know, 10 years ago, every tattooer in my shop had a six month waiting list and you know, It wasn't really

a concern of mine, marketing or Yelp. I remember telling everyone, I'll never give a fuck about Yelp. Fuck them. We don't need those people. That's the best part of this game is we don't have to cater or, you know, any of that to those, but times change. I, yeah, I have a bad managers and, and, you know, and I do a lot in marketing and. I think that keeps us going, but the fact I'm fighting

in that way, maybe not fighting, but... But you're a special breed, you know, you're not sitting around being resentful to change and brooding and being angry and hoping that the world responds to your anger and stops changing. You know what I mean? Like you read the room and you're like, oh, okay, cool. Like if things are drifting there, you're like, if seeing who the human is behind the tattoo designs is important, then you put yourself out

there and be like, this is the human, you know, this is who I am. And I think it's, it's really powerful. And you know, like part of the reason why, you know, you guys still have the lights on and are, you know, are doing well is that, you know, you're, you adapt, you know, which not Definitely not from our generation. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of the newer ones, yeah, they don't even ask that question. They just open their shop and they immediately pour money into all this, you know, pump

on a badge and they just know it's something you got to do. But our generation for sure, there's a lot of people that didn't adapt. So I guess, yeah, I am that type of person and maybe I'm a little, um, unique in that way, but from my age as a 30 year tattooer, you don't meet a lot of guys that are just, and I've always been that way. I mean, I was the first guy

to get a rotary. I was, Yeah i was the first guy to get an ipad i was the first guy i just finished an ai me and ai fusion art piece for a bodysuit show and you know of course i was yeah i was i couldn't wait for people to give me shit and i your audience is a lot of tattoo industry, which I don't, I don't do any press in the tattoo world. You know what I mean? Like I'll do Vogue. I'll do like

interview magazine. I'll do New York times. But I was like, I, you know, like it doesn't mean a lot to me what the tattoo world thinks of me. You know, like I have like the 10 tattooers that I truly admire and like, their opinion of me means the world, but like, the rest of like, I don't need to be cool in the tattoo world. But yeah, it's, you know, insane, like, they just bring that up, you know, like, because like, now there's the whole like, loyal to the coil movement. And Like,

coil machines, nothing is as romantic as a coil machine. Like, it's so beautiful, the simplicity of it, the mechanism, but like, you know, I am at the point now where I'm like, I will use what yields the best results, period, consistently, you know? And like, yes, I have this one fucking Rollomatic machine that it, like, is the reason type threes exist. It is the most perfect, flawless thing.

I don't know what was in those springs or those coils. There is juju in there, like, But at the same time, that machine will

have a bad day, you know what I mean? The humidity shifts. I'd be like, oh my god, yeah, it's 10 degrees hotter, the machine's not running quite the same, or I used it in a different power supply, and so it's like, when the stars align, it's great, but with a, you know, I use Bishop machines and cartridges, and it's like, It's not as romantic, but it's fucking consistent and it works great, you know, and I can have 10 different, you know, liner

groupings, you know, in one tattoo and not even think about it. And so like my tattoos are better, you know, because of that. And, uh, you know, I have, I built a museum case from my coil machines, you know, like they still mean the world to me, but I, you know, like I don't care, whatever, whatever makes the best tattoo. I'll

Same here. I grew up in Iowa with a bunch of farmers and my dad was a contractor and there's just something in me that's just got this like mechanic brain where I'm just super pure function when it comes to it. I've never been romantic about it. I do have machines I'll never sell and I do get the romance. I don't tattoo with those machines. I tattoo with a

lot of Bishop stuff as well. But to me it was always just like my dad, it's like, is there a new drill that can drill a hole in concrete faster? I need that. You know, I got a building to build today and I treat a tattooing like that, which is gimme whatever's going to work, work quick, not even work and work quick. I could work as fast with the old stuff. It's just consistency was my problem with the older stuff is I didn't have the time or I didn't have

the. interest, really, in tuning machines. And a lot of people really enjoyed that. I was just like, pissed. Yeah. Because I had a tattoo to do, and this fucking thing is, it was perfect last week, you know? Yeah. So that's what I just went, you know, out of there. But moving and changing, I mean, God, that's life, right? And we live in an era right now where that could not be more apparent with everything that's happening in the world and the changes. We'll

get into some of this in a minute, but yeah, I've always been of that mindset. Let's see here. You said this, and I loved it. Stoicism is

Because I immediately took... I was like, wait a minute, what are you going to do with this? Because I love Stoicism, and I think there's so... And I don't... I'm not a Stoic. I don't practice, but I've read some of the books. By the way, now Stoicism is like a whole philosophical movement, but like... I think what you meant, is not a strength. Yeah, like to be compassionate and to be open and like to be able to communicate, like communicating is power.

You know what I mean? Like being, you know, stoic and, and kind of quiet and brooding and, you know, tough is like, you're not the most powerful person in the room. Like that you that will not lead to thriving, you know, like, like, being able to kind of emotionally, if you move people emotionally, that's it. Like you, you like any, any piece of artwork, like I've ever made, not always in this chapter of

my life. And there's a story about that, like, you know, if I can make something that makes someone feel something that everything else will fall in place, you know, I mean, like the money will follow every like, if I can move people emotionally, That's that's the goal. But it I mean, you know, talking about kids and childhood and careers and stuff. There was, you know, a time in New York when I like I was doing pretty well in the fine art world, doing better

than I ever thought a dirty kid from Louisiana would do. And, you know, selling painting and sculptures. And I had these two big galleries that were supporting my work. And I was doing well, you know, I was living what I thought was the dream. But I was a lot of the work I was making was kind of informed by what would sell, you know, it was like the galleries were like, yeah, that's great. I see what

you're toying with over there. But like, just make this because like, we have these collectors that are really excited about this stuff. And I was like, okay. Anyway, my wife at the time was pregnant with our first child and it was a couple months before she was born. And I remember so clearly waking up from this dream. I had a dream that I had died before my daughter was born. And there was this, she was 12 years old and she was going through my studio and looking at everything that

was in my studio, half finished or like getting ready to ship out. as a way to try and get to know this father she had never met. And I was on the other side. I was in the spirit world, trying so desperately to explain myself. I'm like, no, no, no, no. That's not really me. That was just a commission by this guy who wanted me to make that. And I was so desperate to tell her that that's not really who your dad was. And I woke up in a sweat, and I was like, fuck it. I don't give a fuck about

money. I don't care if I never sell another painting. everything I make has to be sincere, like everything I make, some little girl has to be able to look at me like my dad made that. And I woke up and I like quit both my galleries at the time, like totally reassessed my whole career. And you know, that was like 2014. I've made more money since 2014 than I did my entire life cumulatively Just from the moment I decided to... I would

not do anything that didn't feel sincere... Oh, right, right. Ended up making me more money than accommodating the Or just the fact that sincerity always wins. It does. And people can smell it. When you make an art, a piece of work that's for someone else or that is trying to accommodate someone else's expectations, there's no real magic there. There's no real sparkle. You're just a waiter giving

them the burger they ordered. Whereas if you make a piece of art that someone has to kind of like, that's a little bit over their head, you know, that they, they're like, I don't really understand it, but there's something there. Then like people have to learn something to appreciate what you've made. And if people have to like reach a little bit over their head to get it, then you're an educator, not an accommodator. You know what

I mean? Like, like you, you earn their respect because they're like, Oh, I'm going to see what Scott makes next. And if I don't get it immediately, I'm going to sit with it. Cause he's usually got something going on. And like, that's a much more powerful position to being like, you know, just Yeah. I mean, and even if, you know, Some people do actually make things to serve the public. You got your pop bands and some of them make a fuck load of money. Yeah.

So I think what you're in, that's fine. You've done better financially since you started following your heart artistically. But even if the I mean, yeah. That's only one metric of success. There's other I like the word, you use the word fulfillment, right? Not never happiness, because happiness is a, happiness comes and goes. I mean, I don't care how rad your life is, you're going to have unhappy and happy times, but fulfillment

is a, is a nice word. It's, it's the ability to look back and I mean, that's, you know, like, you know, tattooing as well, like we were talking about is like, for as difficult and challenging as tattooing can be as a job. Carving something in somebody's arm that they just, and you see the electricity that runs through Yeah, it's the best part. That's why I love it. Yeah, that's interesting. I'm glad you did that. I'm sure a lot of other people are too. I mean, yeah, so far

so good. Follow your heart, people. We all know it. I Yeah. I don't know. I'm like, do you really not know what you want to do? Be honest. I mean, yeah. You know, be honest. Cause most everyone, if they get quiet enough, it's like, actually there is something I want to do, but it doesn't make any sense at all. Right. Well, let's explore that. Try it. Um, that, that kind of kind of leads to another subject that I find, I just can't stop talking about it, dude. I, I, it's just like AI world.

It's, it's, coming into our, to existence, coming into culture. Um, I mean, obviously it goes everywhere, right? It goes to politics. It goes to you name a subject it it's probably in it and going to affect it. But as artists, I kind of focus on that compartmentalize that. And like I told you earlier, I'm kind of working right now with this idea of, well, maybe it's, it's something we caught out. We don't have to, but an artist can play with as a, um, a novel generator,

so to speak. Like I took just an example before you talk. He's wearing the shirt, turn around and show him that shirt. So this is something I did for Sullen. Okay, so I sketched that very roughly. And then instead of moving forward with it, I put it into this AI generator that turns a sketch into art and a bunch of different versions. And then I went through them and I do a lot of filigree. So, and there was filigree in the sketch, but then the way it was doing some of it was like totally novel

and new. Like even some of it I hadn't even seen in anywhere else. So I was like, that's so interesting. And it was pretty, I mean, none of them were final, like ready to serve. They all had clunky bullshit happening at them. I'll probably end up being able to fix that eventually. But these were clunky. So I kind Well, and I kept changing it and stuff. But there was a moment where I was like, is this? Is this not, is this okay? This is, I mean, I'm an artist who just made a leap into

All right, let's do it. But yeah, the idea of cheating isn't, you can't cheat. Like if you create something new, like the result is the thing, you know what I mean? Like the idea that there might be a tool that makes it easier to get there and make it better is cheating. I mean, I feel like, I remember that same feeling of cheating when I first started using Photoshop to

collage, you know what I mean? Like, oh, I'm just gonna take a picture of this skull and take this eagle sketch and then Photoshop it together and then trace it. And they're like, oh, that's cheating. And it's like, fucking what? You know what I mean? But then when I first started tattooing, we drew everything on. We didn't even have a fucking copier to make it tempered. So if I drew an eagle on your chest, and you're like, I want it bigger, I got to wash it off. So

is Thermofax cheating then? Is Photoshop cheating? I really think it's a tool. And it took me a while to arrive at this, because I, like anyone else when it first came out, was like, oh god, I'm obsolete. I'm getting replaced by robots. But then you see, and it's like, they can't generate any new ideas. It's just rendering, you know, in same thing in not wanting to get left behind and taking some deep breaths through that panic and being like, okay, like, this is a tool,

like, how do I use this as a tool? you know, like, I found this way, you know, like, I can send you a link to like, the kind of stuff that I've been using, but there's a way. So I took, you know, a folder of 200 of my line drawings, you know, and then, you know, use that created an AI felt, you know, like generator based on that. So I'm like, Okay, so now I'm like, Here's you can input text or drawing like I'll sketch a scorpion and be like, okay, here's

a scorpion sketch. Now render that in this style. And it looks like the two at the 200 drawings that I did to do that. So

everything that was input there came from me. Like there's no part of it But there's other cases where the people aren't using their own art, the generator, it's getting information from other artists around the world is Yeah, but I mean look at like hip-hop, they'll sample other songs and then remix it and turn it into this thing, like does that mean it's not a new song, it's the same thing? Like no, you just take parts of this and assemble that I

think it's it's changing, you know, which we have to keep up with. But I do think it comes back to like, what art really is,

which is new ideas. Like if you're just rendering the same thing over and over, then like, yeah, AI is going to place you but if you're actually pushing boundaries and like trying to come up with new ideas, then like you'll Well there are some that say that right now currently and who knows what day i have a theory that they have models that they don't allow us to download on our phones let's just go up to what we got on our phones are talking about this one right now it and how

it does it in. Three seconds. I just, I can't put, you know, it searched the entire body of history and gave me an answer in three seconds. It's, it's scary, weird, but, but they say it will reach a point and this isn't necessarily sentience, which I believe the Turin test has been passed personally. I've listened to some podcasts from dudes in that space. I think it's been passed. I'm not making everyone panic. It's my personal opinion. It's a big argument. It's settled

here. It's under debate. Well, let's say it hasn't. I'm not talking about sentience. I'm just talking about it will start generating its own stuff and quit dragging from historical reference points. So at this point, you maybe potentially have a AI machine that is generating brand new novel ideas that have no echoes or shadows

I never say that's happening. Yeah. And but like with tattooing, like whatever the last tattoo you did, I bet you donut, you know, somebody came in and they're like, Okay, like, I want this eagle, you know, again, they're like, you're like, you want color and black or gray? And they're like, Well, what do you think? You know what I mean? Like, oh, like I'm doing, you know, I want a Japanese sleeve. Like, you know, I don't know, peonies

or cherry blossoms. Like, what do you prefer? You know, like the thing about tattooing that I think gives us a bit of job security is that like the human, like the interaction between two humans is a huge 100%. Scott, I'm not even going there. We'll never disagree on that. You know, this idea that you stand I'm not saying I wouldn't want that. I mean, I don't know. Maybe there's clients out there. Maybe there's whippersnappers that that would be used, but

like, I don't want that. Like it's still like, going to get tattooed is fucking cool. You know what I mean? Like it because like, like I get tattooed by people I love. I look like the bathroom wall of some shitty bar. There's like fucking dicks and mom jokes all over me, you know, but like, I get tattooed by people who I like, like I want a piece of you, you know, it's not, it's not just like, Oh, I want a rose and a clock and a lion, you

know, like, Like, no, I want to spend three hours with you. And I want to come away with something that reminds me of like, fuck, I spent three hours with him that one time. It was so cool. You know, and I don't know, I have to. That's you. Yeah, that's me. I don't know, but I'm the You got a seven year old that's spending all day with VR goggles on and he wants to look like his avatar when he's 18 and there's a tube he can stick his arm in and he pulls it out and he looks like the

Yeah, but I. I don't know, I... I'm just being devil's advocate. Yeah, no, for sure. I'm on your side. I mean, believe me, look, I made a lot of money doing tattoo designs in Grand Theft Auto, you know what I mean? Oh, cool. Like that, you know, like I've sold tattoos to avatars before and it was great, but I don't, I mean, in my kids, you know, just seeing and kind of learning about the world they're growing up in, I mean,

I have to have hope, I have to. But like, I really see them being aware that like the phone isn't reality, you know what I mean? Like my kids really, I feel like they really know the narrative of like, oh, that's not healthy, it's not real. They'll put it down and be like, I need to go outside, this isn't, and I...

They're developing a new, I don't know, what's that called, when you have to learn your ecosystem around you so you'll get, if I lived in an environment where tigers were around when I was a kid, I'd be very aware of where to go at night and stuff, but they almost have defense mechanisms. that are probably more adept than my own because this is a new thing to me. I didn't build that shit when I was a kid. I think they will have

that. Not all of them. You're always going to have a kid that still walks out at night and get eaten by tiger, even though all the kids knew not to go do But to get back to the AI thing, I think AI is going to like make rendering much more efficient. You'll be able to present 20 different ideas to your clients instead of just two. I think it'll speed up a lot of the process, but I do think at the end of the day, it's another human's like taste and like kind of concept that,

Well, I'll put it, I'll, I'll add to it. Cause I arrived. It's funny. You're like, I thought about this a lot and this is where you arrived. I thought about it a lot. I arrived in the same place. Here's my prediction. These things are going to, you know, they're already making Jimi Hendrix songs. It's so novel and cool. I listened to them like this is fucking amazing. So

it's like this new shiny toy and everyone's very excited about it. And you know, there are going to be people with giant LCD screens, a wall in their house and AI is going to be, it'll be art moving generated by i mean it's psychedelically cool it's much crazier and more engaging than a painting i could paint so but this is the novelty right and then you go forward this novelty sort of wears off why because everybody can have it okay with a little bit of money, you

can have these things and they're so cheaply made by AI that it's easy to get a new fake Jimi Hendrix song, it's easy to get new fake- It's not like substance, you know, it's like- Well, that's why I think analog art is gonna return with a vengeance and the real ballers that wanna have real things in their life, the value of analog art will go, will skyrocket,

That's the real move. And that's what I mean, like, it's fun and it's sparkly, you know, but in the same way, like, Yeah, cake is delicious, but your body just knows, if you're like, we're not gonna eat cake all the time. You know what I mean? It's good to go outside and feel the grass under your feet. There's a reason why, even though AI exists, beaches are powerful, you know? Because sitting with your toes in your sand is a real, I don't know.

I think we're just, we're excited about it, but I think the kids are gonna pull it back in an analog direction. I Well, I mean, I just, I guess part of this is therapy for me, because I'm really, you know, I feel akin to you for the time you've been doing tattooing, and I feel like we're a lot alike, and it feels good that you agree with me there, because I'm fucking, sometimes I get a little freaked out, you know? And not for my own career. My, my ship sailed.

I have enough set up. I'll keep doing what I do, but I do look at this beautiful craft and just art in general and music. And I'm like, is it all, you know, I get scared that it might start I mean, believe me, I know. I mean, I, like my library is, means the world to me, you know, the books I've collected over my career. And, um, you know, sometimes like, you know, kids come in the shop and I'm like, these are books. Let me show you. This was like before Google image, you could open the page,

you know? And, um, and I'll pull like references out and they think I'm fucking magic. They're like, Oh my God, that's the coolest thing. I was like, it's in a book. It's not a Google image. Cause no one has scanned this book in Especially if you've got the old rare ones. Yeah, no, there's some. Yeah, that's what I mean. The whippersnappers still think I'm a wizard Wild times we're in, man. I do a lot of hallucinogenics. Not

a lot, I shouldn't say it that way. I have them throughout my lifetime. Nowadays, I take them intermittently when I feel the need for a real... It's more spiritual I mean, I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't like my, if I have to be social after 10 PM, I just nibble on mushrooms and Yeah, that's a hundred percent. But my point I'm making is I think nowadays I look at life, like it's trippier. than

some of my hardest acid trips. It's more, if you really just bring it all in, what's happening at light speed around us, I'm like, this is actually trippier than taking a I remember I had this realization years ago. But I remember, I remember when I was a little kid playing Legend of Zelda, you know, and when you're walking around on Zelda, there's a little map up

top that like shows you where on the level you are. And I remember playing that and being like, God, imagine if in real life, there was like this little map that like showed you where you're going. And it was like, you know, 10 years ago, I was like, oh my God, that's what GPS is. It's the little Zelda

Wild times, man. I also think about like, Man, and specifically to tattooing, I'm like, I, if I could, now that I know a little bit of the history and I think I've can see maybe where it's going, changing in a certain way, I think we hit the golden fucking moment. Cause we got the taste of that early street shop. I worked for Biker, like we all have our stories and then the Renaissance movement. And now we're in this like unknown frontier. So what a great, that

It was great. No, I mean, I fully sober in in acknowledging that, like, my relevance to the tattoo world was like, mostly timing, geography, you know, like, if I had come up now, nobody ever heard of me, you know, I'd get like, I get lost in all that. But I was, you know, at a time when the world was just starting to pay attention to tattooing, it was just kind of coming out of the underground. I was the tattoo guy in downtown New York at a time when downtown New York was the center

of the world, you know? So like, yeah, when Marc Jacobs wants a tattoo, or Heath Ledger, or like any of these people wants a tattoo, they're like, oh, Scott's the guy. Whereas now, there's a million guys. But it's funny, we mentioned earlier Tony Hawk, who has become a really good friend and client. But I've always thought about him. as such an amazing reference, you know, it's like, Tony Hawk didn't start skateboarding, because he thought

it would turn into a career. He's just like, I just love this thing. Like, there's an electricity here. And there's a power to it. And it's like, I fucking love it. And he like, had a talent for it, you know, and is the same thing. Like, you know, like, when we started tattooing, you were not choosing the righteous path. Tattooing was fully accepting like, I will never exist in mainstream society.

You were choosing the road of darkness if you became a tattoo artist. You were really deciding to like, I'm not going to participate. And then all of a sudden the world was like, wait, we think you guys are cool. And But I think about him and skateboarding, then the whole world liked skateboarding. It's kind of like that, where we were tattooers at a time when there was no future in tattooing, and then all of a sudden there was. And it's like, oh my

I was, yeah, same boat. I'm telling people, I don't care Dude, I remember, you want to talk about, One time being in the shop, this is in New York, when I first moved there, and this like skater buddy of mine, you know, it was like after hours, we were just tattooing our friends. And I was like, Oh, what are you getting? And I looked and he was getting this tattoo of a broken skateboard. And it said less is more, stay true, stay

poor. And I looked at that And all of a sudden realized I was like, Oh God, like I actually don't want to be poor. You know what I mean? But it was then that I realized I was like, Oh, like we're all these punk rock kids projecting shame on success. I was like, I got to change that.

You know, I was like, I actually, I'm going to say it out loud. I don't like rich people because I wish I was one, you know, like I'm fucking jealous, you know, so I'm like trying so hard to, you know, like to say that wealth is a, you know, is

like a vice or, you know, like a morality issue. But I'm like, I actually just wish I had rent every month, you know, like it would be nice to be comfortable, but it would like that was a switch where like I met a number of shitty people in my life and some of them are really rich. There's good people in every level. Yeah. And that was always a thing, you know, back when I opened my second location, I caught some fly. It was like, it was like an evil thing to do and have two shots. Why is it

shameful to have ambition? Because it's like, what is your, oh, so what's it really about for you, Aaron? Oh, we thought you were about, you were a core tattooer. Now we know, we fucking knew But to me, why is it? That's like blue collar mentality. I mean, I had that, I really had to like take deep breaths through it. You know, like when I first started doing fine art work, You know, I'd

been in the trenches of like street shop tattooing for so many years. And then I, I had this art show and it sold out, you know, like, and I, it made this like real grown up money. And it was, I was like, so perplexed. I was like, but wait, how could I possibly make that much money? Because I, I didn't suffer. You know what I mean? I just had this working class mentality where it's like, if you want this much money,

you have to suffer this much. The idea of enjoying something that also was valuable and produced money was like, well, no, that's wrong. That's cheating. And I I had my own aha moment with that too, where I realized in some subtle way, I was in resistance to success because I thought it meant I was something, it had no meaning at all. What I did with it was what it meant. It was years ago for me, but I had that moment too. Cause that's how we grew up to be successful was to be on

the other side of the fence. We're over here and they're over there. Stay with, you know, it's that, but you don't see that in the tattooers coming in nowadays. I do believe that that, yeah, it's not a big, ballsy risk of being, you know what I mean? It's more of a glamor and it's accepted. So it was, you're illustrating a point that when we did it, you really had to be willing to just die for it kind of vibe. Like, fuck it. I don't care. Let's

go. You know, that's changed. And that's, and that's fine. It's changed. I'm not trying to act like we're cooler than those people, but it was an interesting time, different than anything. It'll never happen again. Cool part of tattoo history. I mean who knows there might be some weird creative like underground movement happening now that we are dismissing as like Bringe culture that you know will come into the spotlight in ten years

I tell myself every day. Don't be the old guy doing that Aaron And maybe I accidentally will but I'll try and you will too I'm sure try your best not to allow that to happen Whatever's new, bring it. Let me see it. Show the old guy. I'm into it. What are you kids up to? Well, brother, this has been fucking awesome. Getting to know you better. I knew as I watched some of your work and obviously your tattooing is amazing, but speaking especially, I was like, Oh, I'm going to love, I'm

going to love this guy. He's going to be one of my new friends. And I know we're going to connect on many levels. So. I want to just say thank you for spending some time with me today and sharing your history and your knowledge and your experiences through this wild tattoo life. You're still living in relationship. I'm not done yet. No, you're not. Let me ask you that. People ask me that all the Right. I don't know. That's what I say. Yeah. Carpal tunnels and

blindness. I don't know. That's kind of how I do it too. And then, you know, and who knows, even if my hands get shaky, you know, like Tom DeVita, he was, he was trembling towards the end and he still, I, you know, like, I still wish I had gotten tattooed by him in his later years. Like his stuff was great. Yeah. I don't know. Like, you know, like I'm going to ride this ride Good. Well, I for one will be happy if you do. And thank

you for coming in today where? Well, let me before one more question, is there anything next? I always like to throw it out there. I don't know if you have a project or something you're excited about. I mean, you already have a lot I mean, you know, kind of like you, you know, we're doing the podcast thing and trying to like, figure out how to move beyond just the Instagram posts. I really, I'm so frustrated and annoyed that Instagram kind

of owns tattooing. If there's any tech nerds out there, please replace it. Please do something better. But I'm trying to put out the emotionality of what we do in as powerful a way as the aesthetic. I think you're a great example of trying to branch out and yeah.

I have the same desire. Yeah. You know, I've had some, we don't, we don't have enough time today, but I've had some wild ideas how to do that too, but I haven't quite figured it out, but it would be cool to somehow create something more analog that can't be duplicated so quickly and so easily digitally, whether it be through photography or whatever. I don't, I don't know. There's just, it's just a tickle of a idea at

this point. Yeah. But I do think something's coming where it's going to be this cool thing that isn't just flashing around on your Instagram screen. Change is the only constant. The only thing you can be sure of is it won't be this way in Especially nowadays, dude. Yeah. Well, where can people On Instagram, like at Scott Campbell's. The irony. Yeah. That's the best way to get ahold of me and I love it. Well, Scott, at Scott Campbell, simple

enough. You can find him there. You can shoot him a message if you want to get tattooed or if you want to figure out what he's up to. Divorce advice, let me know. He's got some good divorce advice. I'm not kidding. I'm not even joking when I say that. All right, well, thank you so much. Everybody that

listens to the show, thank you. I think Scott agrees with me when I say that it's like a weird thing to put yourself out there and expose yourself on a very intimate level that just whoever's watching, Yeah, oh, for sure. If you guys have made it this to minute 47 or whatever If you're still here, you're my, I'm a fan of you. Please DM me and tell me. We owe you a drink, yeah. All right, everybody, thanks for tuning in.