Art, Business, and Humanity ft. Patrick Paul O'Neil

especially the last year and a half, I'd say something that's really changed in my process is trying to become a lot more vulnerable and honest and putting everything out on the table. And that's either so much more that we can kind of talk to, to, to that, to that matter. But yeah, I have so many questions for you. I have so, so, Hello, friends, lovers of art, lovers of tattoo.

Welcome back to Chats and Tats with me, your host, Aaron De La Vidova. Today, I have the honor of sitting down with a tattoo artist, an artist whose work I came across fairly recently, and I was pretty blown away, especially considering the short amount of time he's been doing this. It's really impressive

work. Then I was able to listen to him on some other podcasts, Fireside Chats, especially, and I really could tell this is a very thoughtful, introspective guy who's looking at life in a deeper way than others might. So once I heard that, I just thought, man, I would love to have him on the show. Reached out, he said he could do it, and I'm honored to have him here today. I'm not gonna go in too much more about him. I'm gonna

let him put it in his own words. So with all that being said, please welcome my guest today, Patrick Paul O'Neill. Thank you. Yes. Thank you

for coming from Canada. By the way, you guys guys from Toronto. Yeah down here I'm kind of forging a relationship with our good friend fibs and many of you know his work He worked with me for a few years love the man love his portfolio and it looks like they're looking into maybe a collaboration So he's down in San Diego to do

It was, it was, it was really great to be able to line both those things up. And I've heard so much of this studio that I was, I was really excited to, to get to have my fingers on the pulse of the energy that I've, Oh, well that's a compliment. Thank you. Yeah. And this is not the OG. The OG is over in a place called Pacific beach. This one's 11 years old. That one's 22 years old. And

they both have great energy. But I guess when people hear of Guru and maybe some of the things that have happened to my shops over the years, I'm always like, well, PB is kind of the heartbeat. You know, that's where they really started. But it's both now. It really is. But thank you for the compliment. And here we are. You're here at Guru and Chats and Tats. Yeah, it's going down.

Well, your work, you know, this is always a tricky one with artists, like putting them into a to a label. But just for the sake of discussion, I would call it neo-traditional Japanese. You're obviously an illustrator. I mean, all tattooers on some level are illustrators, but I think you go into a different category. A very dynamic illustrator that's taking that ability to draw things in this very dynamic way to the Japanese realm. Traditionally Japanese art is, um, not all art there.

You have their sculptures and such, but especially their tattoo art, very two dimensional in a beautiful way. I'm not ever

trying to talk down on that. I actually, as I get older, I'm more attracted sometimes to just the old, like old school looking stuff, you know, they're both fantastic, but you know, you're bringing a breath of, of fresh energy and creative talent to that genre that would that's how I would kind of say what I'd say about your work in large format and a lot to do with composition flow knowing how to place things where to place things how wind and

flowers and things should move to complement the body which is its own category beyond being a dynamic illustrator because someone can have that and just do black work you know, knowing both those things, which you kind of have to know about those things. If you're going to do large format tattooing. Yeah. Cause you can draw the coolest thing in the world and just put it in the wrong spot and boom, not, you know, it works, but it ain't going to work at

a level 10, you know? So that's you and you're doing a great job of it. And I would say, how would you describe your style unless you want to add to that? But it sounds like you're just saying, yeah, that's me. Um, man, how would I describe my style? Uh, yeah, I think it's definitely, like, heavily Japanese influenced. My mentor was Chinese, so I think, like, the term that would be more commonly

used, at least in Toronto, would be, like, Neotrad Asian. So it's a little bit of a, kind of a broader category because of these um other influences that are kind of going into it but i'm finding that as i'm especially recently i'm trying to take the um the spirit not the aesthetic but there's there's there are lessons in like the spirit and intention in the work that i'm trying to apply to other subjects so i'm a little bit more tempted

put myself in the box of being like an illustrative tattooer with heavy Japanese influences, but I think that over the course of time, the breadth and width of my subjects, I'm hoping are going to kind of expand beyond that. So I'm more interested now in, this is like such an odd pairing of words to use, but like energy and intention and like both things like spirits. Sorry, like not spirits, but like the spirit of the work is the thing that I want to try to

Yeah. I like that. Because when art comes out of somebody in its purest form, there is a spirit. There's this feeling to it that's difficult to put into words. So to know that exists, for one, is a big step. But to really make an intention around finding it, developing it,

I might also just want to add this. So I'm a huge advocate for like honesty and transparency. So please don't edit this out, but I just want to bring to the table the fact that, you know, having these lights and these cameras and everything, you know, I'm quite anxious. So it's going to take me about five Yeah. No, no, but, but, but, but I, I think like the, the last few

But, but the reason being is like, especially the last year and a half, I'd say something that's really changed in my process is. trying to become a lot more vulnerable and honest and putting everything out on the table. And that's either so much more that we can kind of talk to, to, to that, to that matter. But yeah, I have so, so, so many questions for you. Oh man, let's put me in the hot seat today. Maybe that's cool. And, uh, it's

fine. You said that you're, you're doing great. And I don't think anyone would even have noticed, but I get what you mean by just, that's Yeah. So my first question for you, what's been your experience with anxiety in your career and how have you kind of

Good question. Well, I mean, I think my anxiety throughout my career, which I've had plenty, different things, you know, there's the anxiety of, Putting out work that I think is good and that I am in keeping up with my peers Am I talented as the next guy am

I an imposter because I use too much reference on that piece? Maybe I you know, maybe I'm that you know all those types of anxieties There's the anxiety of business because i've opened a few businesses and then all my money's on the line and i have a family and i have kids and the anxiety daily of wondering is this gonna work out i mean this is all these they're everyone's looking at me to make sure they have a good life and what if it all fails and i don't have a

whole lot of other skills what am i gonna go do if this doesn't work there's that anxiety There's also the anxiety of just being alive in this wild reality, you know, where you can die at any moment or someone you love could get sick. And so really how I've worked through all of those issues, simultaneously for me was just a lot of reading, a lot of philosophical reading, mostly for me, Buddhism and Taoism, which

really changed me in my younger years. I think that was the first moment when I, I mean, I think the biggest book for me at my younger age, maybe my early twenties was the Tao of Pu. which is a book about Winnie the Pooh, but it teaches Taoism throughout, and that was one of my first exposures to their concepts coming out of a Catholic upbringing, which didn't ever say anything that seemed to help me at

the time. I've grown to understand more about Catholicism and Christianity in general, and how it is and can be highly a really great thing for a lot of people, but at my age at that time it wasn't doing shit for me. I could get into that, but it's not worth it. So I was seeking. I found Taoism that led to Buddhism, that went

down a path of listening to Alan Watts and Baba Ram Dass and all these other people, so now I'm feathering into the psychedelic community. I had already did psychedelics in a party kind of a way when I was young, but had two distinctive spiritual events that were completely on accident on hallucinogenics, and then went in the military and just sort of left that behind, but I never forgot it.

So as I started reading and learning more about The different philosophies that have been told to us by some of the wisest people ever to walk the planet, that always sort of was in the background, like how much I was able to feel what they were saying beyond the level of understanding the concept. a level of embodiment almost. That's one thing I will say, like to me, the first step is awareness, right? Oh, there's something

Then there's the level of understanding the concept. You've, you've, you've read it and it makes sense to you and you could probably even tell it to somebody else and it would make sense to them. And then there's embodiment, and embodiment is sort of a phase beyond words where an experience, or maybe it's not a singular experience, maybe it just eases into you over time, but you feel like it's a part of you. It's no longer a concept that you're studying,

it's a part of you. Now that's not to say that I'm an enlightened man, I'm not, you know, and that's why I think they call it the practice, right? Because I have yet, I mean, I did meet Ram Dass and maybe he seemed to be someone who might be completely there when I met him, wherever that is. But that's the only person

I, and I've hung out with a lot of people who do more work on this than me. So the point being, I'm not there and I drift in and out of this place all day long, you know, minute to minute almost at times. But there is some kind of thing I've felt and most distinctively felt under the influence of dimethyltryptamine and psilocybin. That feeling, I just recognized it like coming home. Like it felt like my natural state. You know, oftentimes on, on especially my psilocybin trips, I have become like

my two year old self again. And I realized later why I'm like, cause that's when I was there. Then I was in this state at two years old. I didn't know what a tree was called. I just looked at it and knew it was beautiful. I didn't care what it was. You know, it didn't matter what the name of it was. Then you know how it goes. You start, your parents are telling you, the society

starts telling you that's a tree. you're a boy, this is what boys do, this is what trees do, that's what cars do, that's what this, and you have to assimilate all that to survive here. So during that assimilation, you lose that thing, that feeling, that connection to source. And I think that's a perfectly natural process, I think it's a necessary process. So it's almost like God or the creator gives you complete enlightenment upon birth, then through existing on

in a physical domain, you slowly lose it. And then you spend the rest of your life trying to get back to it. You know, that seems to be the system they set up. Beautiful system, by the way. And then simultaneously, we're going to make you feel older and sicker and weaker. just because if we didn't, if

God didn't, you would just blow it off. But that impending death thing, that it gets more in your face as you get older, you have a buddy die, and some guy your age of natural cause, you start really going, huh, this ends. In fact, soon. So that it just, for me, has moved me back into working harder

Just to speak to that, there was a period last year where I had a little bit of a health scare. Thankfully, it was all resolved, but I had a little bit of a health scare. And there was a period where my wife and I, we were doing mushrooms once a month for maybe half a year. And we were just really in an intentional way. Yeah, very, very, very intentional. And like there was, I don't want to like use the word ritual, but there was, we really made an effort to

step into it and treat it with as much respect as possible. And like, I'm not sure about like how you're feeling about like the state of the world right now. And I don't think I need to explain that to the audience, but I was going through a pretty rough time during one of my trips. And, you know, I was thinking about, you know, what's happening, what's happening economically with tattooing, what's happening economically with the world, what's happening to like the social fabric of

society. And it's really easy to kind of go down this this dark path. You know, you have wildfires that are now ravaging California. And there became a point where I kind of surrendered to if any of that stuff does end up happening. Because also, I don't need that stuff to derail my quality of life. Like you were saying, you or I could just die of natural causes

next week. And I think the moment that I really accepted that I don't need to wait for this impending apocalypse, By whatever means that may come. I just need to start having fun with with what I'm doing now in my tattooing because sorry you were you were saying that what I was kind of gathering from that was this experience of like Feeling this finitude to your life.

It brought in like new priorities and new energies and For myself, it was while you have a chance, while you're healthy, while the economy is somewhat stable or still stable, have as much fun as you can with your tattooing. So it was about a year, a year and a half ago where I really just let it rip and my only priority in tattooing for me became have fun. I'm curious, what sort of gifts have you been given by this idea that it's Well, again, the, the biggest gift is to

make the most of each day, which is cliche, but it's true. Once you start really, I mean, the Buddhists tell, I think there are some of the monks have to meditate on their own death for like a full year daily for like two hours. Just sit there, close your eyes and imagine your decaying body in the dirt somewhere. And that sounds gruesome, but I get what they're doing there, you know, the more you really acknowledge that and are on it. I don't know if you need to meditate on it for two

years. I think you can just come to this realization on your own or. or just give it some thought because then where you're at in this moment is pretty damn important. And it's easy when you don't think about your finitude to just let those moments just drift by because the assumption is there'll be one tomorrow. Yeah. I'll just waste today and tomorrow I'll make up for it. Well, there is a day where there is no tomorrow.

So, or maybe there's a day where there is a tomorrow, but you're old and decrepit and some of the dreams you have, your physical body can't even assist you to get there anymore. So now's your chance. You're in it right now. It's the old cliche of, you know, live in the moment. And it sounds so simple, but it is the secret to, I wouldn't even call it happiness. Happiness is something that comes and goes, but fulfillment, a

fulfilled life. So whenever I feel myself feeling those types of anxiety, I remind myself of that. Like, and I also have some level of faith now, after all my years of being kind of against faith, faith to me sounded like a weak thing to do. Like I'm trusting God or something's gonna take care of me. But I do have faith now because of my age and how often I've seen the bad things around me become the greatest things that ever happened to me. something bad happens and five years later I'm

like, that was perfect. In the time I was so upset, and how much time did I waste being upset about something that now I'm celebrating? So, you know, just reminding myself, whatever's going on is perfect, I trust that it's perfect, you know, if this crash of the economy were to occur and tattooing, no one can afford tattoos anymore, I

do that. We have a bummer on some level, but then there's a part of me it's like, but then like an example would be maybe that means you sell all your property in California and you're suddenly living on a two acre parcel in Wyoming. And then five years later you're like, these are the best years of my life right now. So I'm just open to it. Like I'm going to keep doing

what I'm doing now because it's available to me. But if it gets taken from me, then I'll just do my best to go, okay, that's gone, what's next? And back to living in the moment. And hallucinogenics have helped me more than anything because I understood these philosophies on a conceptual level, but I didn't embody them until some of my trips. And I still, again, I have to say, I drift out of this on a regular basis, but I'm much quicker to be like, oh, I'm doing that right now. And just,

I stop and I fix it. And if I have to fix it again in five minutes, I'll fix it, try my best to do it in five minutes. So, in that way, I think I'm getting a more fulfilled life. I'm not allowing as

I'm curious, with your experience and having opened up so many shops, so this is a wild tangent, but this is one of the really important questions that I had for you. In having to have these additional responsibilities in your life, your family, all of your, I don't know if they're employees or contractors, having these large productions, a fear that I've always kind of had is losing some sense of humanity. I've seen some businesses grow

to a certain scale and you just can't stay as human. Like there becomes a point where like you have to hire HR or you're going to have to start hiring people to do emails for you. And like slowly the humanity, you know, one time, you know, I might be fighting for someone else might be fighting for, you can't necessarily still afford to have it. So over time, like with the expansion of your business and all these new responsibilities, what are, have been some, um, sacrifices

All of them. At some point I've sacrificed my morals, I've sacrificed time with my children, I've sacrificed my health, I've sacrificed nurturing my relationship with my wife. But looking, and I'm proud of the fact that I kept those moments, I think, to a relative minimum. I was aware enough to sort of acknowledge what was happening, be honest with myself, and attend to it. Um,

whatever that means. And I've had times in my life where I'm just like Holly and my wife, uh, clear two weeks, we're going to Italy, you know? Yeah. Like we're, we're leaving, but we're right in the middle of all this shit. I'm like, yeah, but. We've paid, think of, how many days are we gonna say that? When do we just say, fuck it? There's always some problem going on. I mean, let's just go and reconnect or canceling some appointment next week, because my kid's

graduating eighth grade. So I've done my best, but at doing my best, I've still paid prices. To me, it has a lot to do with why, the why of what you're doing it, right? For me, I never intended to be

this guy. That was never in the plan and the plan for me was be a great tattooer And you know back in my day The only reason I opened my first shop is because I couldn't find anywhere to work that didn't have bullshit happening around me all the time I've been through so many of those deals that I'm just like I guess I got to create a spot where I can create try to create a healthy creative environment and Nowadays, it's not as hard. I think a tattooer who's like, I never want to

own a shop. Well, you're good enough. You'll probably find a happy home somewhere where it's chill and it's everyone's kind and polite and supportive. Um, I know that's the kind of place I run and there's more like me, but back then they, I mean, maybe they existed, but I couldn't find one. And, um,

and I had someone that were better than others, but that's how it started. Just trying to create an environment that when I could come to work, I was surrounded by relatively friendly people who were supportive of one another. And then this is just, it just so happened to be during the beginning of the tattoo renaissance in America. So unbeknownst to me, everything's just, business is booming, especially for me and my shop, because we at that time were doing something

different, you know. And people noticed that and we were all my guys are busy. I was busy. We it suddenly became clear We're not big enough. So I'm like, oh just take over the upstairs and now we've got 15 stations and then we couldn't handle that there was more people wanting to work with me and more clients and everyone's a year out booked and so then this place and now two stories here and so and then my wife who I I didn't plan on this either. She's just a very vibrant person,

a lot of energy. She's in the background like, why don't I open a tattoo laser company? Because she's in the aesthetics field. I'm like, well, it's kind of your world, skin and those things. Sure, do that. Now we have a laser removal company. And then she, I love, you know, progressive medicine. I want to do a med spa with IV therapy and hormone treatment and all that. So she's

doing that. So everyone looks at us like maybe we were that's a couple that when we met when we were young that we're just like Yeah, two young entrepreneurs that were like you ready, babe. I love you. You love me Let's go fucking make ten million dollars to go. Yeah, it wasn't like that at all. It was just this just reacting to the opportunities that seem to fall right in front of me that were so obvious that I'm like It was kind of like the

universe knocking on my door. Like, we have this for you. Do you, you know, it's custom made for you. Do you want it? Felt right. That feeling I'm talking about that intuitive feeling, which I've learned to really, really, really trust. Um, it's a muscle. You, you work with it long enough and you, and you give it attention. You acknowledge that it's there. So it's a vast field of information at your fingertips that'll never be delivered to you. words, you

know, the voice in your head, you're not gonna, it's not gonna come to you. The clouds aren't gonna part and some spirit's gonna tell you. The way those things talk is through feelings. I learned a lot about that on my DMT trip. I mean, it was directly told to me on one of my DMT trips. As they were communicating with me telepathically, they were saying, this is the next level of communication. You guys are on a level beneath this that

you have to grow through. You guys are using the words, and words are clumsy, and they get misunderstood a lot. and even trying to find words in your current lexicon to express some of the things that are happening inside you, it's very difficult. We don't even have in the English language some of the words necessary to express how we feel, like love. I love my truck. I love my kids. Same word. Give me a break. Those are not the same thing, not even close. So that's what we're trying. We're

trying to use these rudimentary tools to express ourselves. And so the entities were just like, just understand, this is where you want to try to get to where you're coming from this place where these are not just feelings. These feelings are embedded with information. And, um, so that was interesting to me. And since then, which was probably 15, 18 years I'm going to ask a question that's based entirely on suspicions and not on anything about you or Guru, but totally just

what I see happening in the outside world. How long has it been since It came in waves. I'd say about 10 years. You know, my whole And then about 10, maybe a little more years ago, I started And then three, and now probably around Do you feel that, I'm not trying to be an armchair psychologist by any means, this is just like, I I'm super curious about this. Having grown all these businesses, you're exposing yourself to a lot of risk, I think, especially with

the amount of people that you're bringing on board. Sometimes that amount of risk and that amount of responsibility can change the way that we interact with people. And there was a brief period where I had some more responsibilities at one of the shops that I had, and I hated the way that it changed how I had to kind of talk to people. Like I couldn't be vulnerable and I couldn't be fully transparent with people because of the position that I kind of had at

one of the shops. So I'm curious, do you think that like you starting this podcast and you sitting down with artists and trying to connect again, is that in any way to

Yes. For sure. I mean, I'm that kind of guy. Like if you were my buddy, some of my friends are just, I think I can even annoy people cause I can't, I just want to go deep all the time. I'm just like, you know, what's, what's reality, what's consciousness. I can't, I find it to be the most fascinating thing happening. So I talk about it all the time. I think about it all the time. And so, yeah, the podcast gives me a platform to kind of do what we're doing right now. You know, and yeah, we,

I do it with my clients too. And we all know how that goes with certain clients. A lot of my clients, you seem to attract types of people that are similar to you. So that's been great, but that's different. I mean, there's tattooing happening. I can't engage like this while I mean, there are moments where it does even get even deeper than this, you know, there's those little moments, but this is nice to be

able to sit and not do anything else. Just sit across the table, turn our phones off and have a deep and meaningful conversation with another person. That's something I've always loved to do. I think it grew in me through tattooing, having so many magical moments with clients. And so I just wanted to do more of it. And then there's the part of like, what have I, you know, what do I have to give back to this world? you know, not just tattooing, but

what can I leave behind? And I think years of tattooing and relationships that have been made have opened doors to people like you sitting with me. So I'm like, I'd be stupid not to, um, to Well, I've, I found it kind of interesting how like it, and I'm, I'm sure you've, probably encountered this at this point, but now what tattooing is

to me is, like, I'm getting these chances to encounter people. If I can try to be as vulnerable and open as possible to them, and I try to meet them where they are, and I try to better understand them, the most enjoyable part of tattooing for me recently has been having

my prejudices and my beliefs continuously eroded. Through the opportunities that you've kind of had to get to speak to so many different types of individuals, different backgrounds, different religious perspectives, things like that, what have been some prejudices that All of them. But the biggest thing is, what I learned is from The Four Agreements, one of my favorite books, and I actually had the author's son on the show twice now, Miguel

Ruiz Jr., shout out, love you. You know, there's a part in there about never fully believe in anything. And a lot of people hear that statement, they're just like, that's insanity, you have to believe in things. I'm like, no you don't. You can get, I'm perfectly comfortable saying that I believe in nothing, 100%, other than maybe some basic facts of life. Even that, I mean, I don't know, is this book? Am I even here? I mean, I, I doubt everything. So I'll give

certain things a 98% chance. It's probably what's happening, but I kind of always leave this part of me. It's like, but I really don't know. I don't. And maybe that's what happens when you die. You get to kind of know. But I don't know in this lifetime, in this physical form, with an ego, if we get to

know 100% what's going on. And that's just a spiritual, philosophical aspect. But then there's just the life experience aspect, like you're saying, of being younger, having beliefs that you're just so connected to, and having them experiencing different people in different situations to where you're like, huh, got to rethink that one. Enough of those moments happen and you stop doing it. You're just like, I'm done, you

know? And it's, it's, it's trapped too, man, because you get too concrete in what you think, you know, you've just put a limit on what you can learn. So you That's a great point because I've had clients who really sort of break the mold, or they kind of break those boxes. Like I have one client who's trans and a super big gun advocate, right? Like these little sort of exceptions to, I shouldn't say exceptions to the rules, but rather they kind of show you how stupid it is to put anybody in

Yeah. Because I mean, like, for example, my experience in once being involved again, like with some responsibilities with the shop was a really big eye opener as to like what it's like to be on the other side of like a tattoo business. Like when I was an artist, I used to you know, think like, oh, I need to have this percentage. And like, if they're not giving me this percentage, they're like, you know, they're they're fucking me over. And I would have thoughts

on like wage transparency. And then when you realize that when you're actually on the other side of those agreements and you're on the other side of those responsibilities, it's actually like a completely different game. I'll just share like one story with you. So I once had a young artist who was just in the midst of kind of finishing their apprenticeship and they were phenomenal. They would be a real asset for the studio and they worked their ass

off for this. At the end of that sort of period there's a bit of a negotiation between the artist and the studio. At that time it was like the percentage that you were to receive and I took a bit of a risk and I told them I was like, I'm going to be honest with you, I think like you're really phenomenal and you'd be a really, really great asset to the team. And I want to see you, I really

want to see you thrive. So I think when you have that discussion about your percentage, I think that you should ask for a higher percentage than what other people might get. And so maybe a week or two later, this person ended up getting the percentage that I recommended. It was a bit, it was a lot higher than most other people would have gotten. But then they start to talk around the studio and someone kind of catches wind of it. And they're like, Oh, they're getting that percentage. I

want to get that percentage. And this person didn't at all like deserve, they didn't put nearly the same amount of work in. And prior to this experience, I was like, Oh yeah, we transparency is great. And I, I still do. But for a moment I was kind of seeing like, Oh, actually these things aren't as simple. Like it's like when it comes to

like, I know very little about running a business. So I'd like to know more your thoughts on that, but it's not as simple as just everybody knowing each other's wages, because I saw a concrete example as to how that can have a negative impact. So earlier when you were saying that you've had to sacrifice your morals, not that, speak to that to whatever level you're comfortable sharing.

Yeah. No, I mean, everything you're talking about right now, I mean, I had these shops for 22 years, so I know, you know, I've been through this story and a hundred others like that. I just probably been over

200, 250 tattooers that have worked with me over all those years. So So yeah, that situation, situations like that have come up many times and, you And I do think in my younger years, there was less honest transparency with me around that subject because of the fears of how it could affect the business's income, outcome, all these different things. What I've learned since then is that, you know, I tell people when

they come on board, look, you know, there's, there's different layers. Like you might have a very experienced artist who could go anywhere, who just likes it here and wants to work here. Well, that's one conversation. But there's a lot of others that are like younger and developing that don't want to

come on board. And I'm like, well, what I'm going to provide for you that you might find it somewhere else, but I can guarantee you're going to get it here, which is the absolute most impeccable support we can possibly provide on every level. And I'm not saying we won't fail, but if we are failing, let me know. And with reason, we'll fix it. So. You're going to get the luxury of working here for a number of years and you're going to grow.

You've got talent and you've got us supporting that talent. And I know this because I've seen it happen too many times. So I can almost guarantee you, you're going to grow. But I need you to understand the reason you're going to grow is because this shop is profitable. You know, everyone loves these bodysuit shows that Guru Tattoo does. Every time I do one, it's, I don't know, $25,000 I lose on every single one of them. They

love them. And I've done many other events and other things for the shop that I'm happy to pay it, you know, to support them and help them expose themselves and help them develop themselves. But I tell them, I go, that luxury you're going to experience is based on profit. And no, you know, tattooers and artists, they just, the word profit, the bosses just said the word profit. But I just kind

of try to be real clear about the reality of the situation. And so from that perspective you need to be someone who wants to see Guru Tattoo to succeed. You're about ready to reap the benefits by working here that 200 artists who are gone now paid into this system and they're the reason we're having a bodysuit show this summer. And you're gonna be in that bodysuit show off their backs and their hard work. So

one day you can leave and that's fine. I'm very open about that. Like you do not be here if this isn't working for you or, or maybe do me the favor of talking to me first. Cause a lot of times I can fix it, but you might outgrow me or it or whatever. And that's fine. I'll love you till you die. Don't leave grumpy. Don't leave upset. It doesn't have to be like that, but you're about ready to pay into a system that you're taking advantage of right now. And that's fair.

Fair is fair. And there, of course, when you're hiring a guy, he's like, absolutely. I totally understand that. And since I've been kind of really articulating that to the people I take on, things have been way, way better. I think they get it, you know? And then, you know, as far as like, you know, it can seem, and it is tough to be the

boss with a bunch of people that are kind of like your friends. And it can be, but I've gotten pretty good at just looking at it like agreements, like a marriage or anything else. Like I've told you I'm going to do this and you've told me you're going to do that. And so we both need to uphold our agreements and

whatever that is. And if I told you I'm going to pay you X as a percentage and told you if you can get to this, this level and I define it pretty accurately, there's when I do money around what I pay an artist, There's really, there's these categories. One is, you know, how good is your tattooing? And you know, that's a bit subjective, but they're going to have to, and I'm willing to talk about it, but I'm pretty good at seeing where you're at. Are you like crushing at this massive level or

not? But that's not the only thing. Cause I've had guys that crush at that level and they come in and work two days a week. Well, that's not fair. And I've had this conversation like you're, you know, we have a marketing department, we have ad spends, we have an ops manager, a general manager. When you come to work and you say how much you love working here, it's because of all that. I don't know the number. I'm blowing 150K

a year to make all that shit happen. So if you want to come in here and work two days a week, so here's the number that you profit the shop per year. How is that fair to this guy that works in a booth next to you who's 5Xing that? You guys are both getting the same support. So you're, if you want to be fair, you're taking from the others. You know, so just illustrating that and articulating that not

everyone gets it. You know, you still have somebody who's like, I don't care, you know, but I do tell them also, but I'm willing to absorb sometimes a very, very talented guy. Well, I do. I mean, the guys that are super, super way up there with my, with my shops, they get paid more and they get different deals. And, and, but the, the, the, what really works is if you're so good, then

you should be able to make this number. And I can pay you way more, but your contribution, my cut of that is still relatively equal to the five-year tattooer who's still growing. I'm always trying to balance, like, is everyone at the shop pitching in to the overall overhead so that we can keep expanding and being what we are? And if you're not, I'm going to be talking to you about it. And the only exception would be the occasional super, super stars that come through where the value

there, but they are paying in, in a different way. They are a name attached to Guru Tattoo that gives us relevancy and keeps our brand at the top. So that's worth money too. But all those factors have to be measured out to make it fair for the group. So that's sort of how I've done it. And that's allowed me to not really feel too bad about it. You know,

So now that things are a little bit more clear and open around the table, there's no space left for accusations of like manipulating things or strong arming deals. Because like you're saying, basically everything's out Yeah. And I've got some actual metrics. Like I'll show a guy, like when he's like, I want a raise and I might just give them to him right there. But even if I give it to him, I'm going to show that

guy like, this is why I'm giving this to you. Like we know after 22 years of business that this number weekly gross is an average number. Anything below that number, almost always I find a problem with that tattooer. And it could be simple fixes. Like they might be doing everything right, but they're just too nice when they charge people. Oh, it's cool, man. Just give me 800 bucks when you should have charged 1200 bucks.

So I'll help them build self-confidence to get to the point where they realize you're worth 1200 bucks for what you did today. You know, so, so, but I know there's a problem beneath that number. And then at that number, you're, it's an acceptable contribution Because I can give you that raise and you're still contributing a fair amount back to the organization so that everyone shares in all these beautiful things that we're doing here. So yeah, that's just where

I've arrived after all these years. That's sort of where I'm at now. And again, I don't have a whole lot of stress about it anymore. And I tell people all the time, there's no need for anger or resentment. There really isn't. You can say to me, I want this. I can say to you, no, and this is why. And you can politely say to me, then I must move on. And I will shake your hand and love you to the day you die. So let's not take it to this other place of like, well, you're the nephew. Why?

It was simply a question. I said, no, thank you. And you said, no, thank you back. You know, that's, that's an adult mature way to handle these things. And I'm sure I don't want to, you know, say that we're there. I think we kind of are right now. I look at my group around me, 22 tattooers that work here. And, um, I think everybody gets that. And, and those little moments of conflict or whatever you want to call them, get resolved in a more mature way than

they used to. But it's been tricky. I mean, it's been, took a lot of years of getting, having things happen where you're like, Oh, I got to do that different. You know, you know, and, and then it's gotten easier too, because of our reputation and the length of time we've been here that I just don't seem to attract problems as much, you know, or we, we have the option to avoid problems in that we didn't have maybe 15 years ago, or it was like, we need to hire three

artists. Like we're not even paying our bills right now. I'll get, bring those to bring those guys in. Now we have people waiting to work here. So it's like. We really take our time to vet people, make these things clear, get them to see it, and be like, yeah, that makes sense. I'm on board for that. Okay. You were just talking about the idea of the prejudices that

people might have around tattoo shop owners, and they're valid. I mean, I've been in the industry long enough to have met a lot of real assholes that ran tattoo shops. Lying, cheating, stealing, drug act, you name it. I've worked with some of those folks, unfortunately. Luckily, it was in my first few years and it went away pretty quickly and that's great. So, but I know there's a lot still out there and there's others that are doing it in a more

professional manner, I would say. I would call it professional. But it's interesting to me looking back, you know, I chose the name guru tattoo. Um, one, I was already interested in Eastern philosophy. I thought it sounded cool with tattoo guru tattoo. Um, but then here I am, uh, 22 years later looking back and I'm like, man, I've had a few gurus in my life. One

is marriage. The second would be kids. But I probably have grown as a person and learned more about myself through owning this business and happening to learn so much about myself in order to more better handle these types of situations, negotiations about business and money, yet still somehow maintaining a level of respect and friendship around these issues. And the only way I've been able to get through it is I've had to face my own bullshit and be able to honest enough to go home and look

in the mirror and not just say, well, that guy's a dick. I'm glad he left. Yeah. But to look in the mirror and go, yeah, he is kind of a dick and I am probably better off without him or her. But is there anything I did? Be honest, Aaron. Like, is there anything you said or maybe missed or ignored that could have, you could have done or said that would have made things maybe better. Maybe you could have saved this relationship. Maybe they'd, You know, those moments have really been

a big, big teacher for me. And from that perspective, I'm so grateful to have become like an owner, you know? Because I really did in the beginning feel like I was giving up the artist in me. And to some degree, that's true. I mean, there's only so much time in a day and I've got a lot of other things to do. I'm not just painting and drawing and tattooing. I know, and I'm honest about this, my art and portfolio would have developed to

But I'm very cool with it. One, for the first reason I said, like the, the, the, the things I've had to learn about myself has been a greater blessing than maybe a little better portfolio. And to being a part of so many stories that i'm not the reason they're successful but i'm a part of it and i was able to be a supportive. Person in shop and business in their journey of their career. So

it's just, uh, I love being a part of things that are win-win. I mean, when they were with me, I was winning, they were winning and they're winning a little bit more because they were with me. So it's just a beautiful thing from a karmatic perspective to have a business life that you look back on and know that most everything I was doing was just in support of other success. Some businesses by nature are predatory. They don't succeed. Here

comes the coffee. They don't succeed unless you are predatory. You know, like, thank God I don't have to do that. I wouldn't be an owner, you know, if it was, Hey, um, your job is to make company more money. And the way to make more money is to cancel as many insurance policies as you can find any reason to do it. We need to maximize profits. I mean, that's a job for someone out there. Yeah. That would

bum me out. Even if I was sitting around with $20 million, I don't know if I could, I don't think I'd be fulfilled or even happy. I think it would haunt me. That's just how I'm wired. So yeah, this is my teacher. One of my biggest Have you ever or do you ever suffer from a scarcity mindset? One of the most eye-opening moments that I kind of had regarding this, like a prejudice towards money, I'll put it that way, was I once had a former boss

of mine, he's a really, really wise guy, We spoke a little bit about... Don't like Tony? Not Tony, this was someone else. About this idea of money and how much money does he feel that he needs to be making in order to be comfortable. And he was saying to me, you know, I have two kids now, I didn't have two kids when you first met me, and now my parents are going to start living with me, and

my wife's parents are going to start living with me. So I need to have enough money for literally my whole family to be living with me, and I'm going to be taking care of all of them. And so there's a much larger number that he needs to have in order to feel as if he's doing his part. Because I think I had asked him, what do you kind of define as greed? And I think his response was somewhere along the lines of like, anything that's beyond what I need for my security. So would

I wouldn't agree with that because I think that's a limiting statement. I think all of reality is a simulation and I think that anything we want we can have and there's no shame in any of it. that my only rule is what I would define greed as dishonesty, as unfairness, all the bad things in life, lying, cheating, stealing. If you're not doing none of that, you can have as much as you want. In fact, I see so many people in my lives that I wish had

$200 million. I'm like, why don't these people have the money? Because the ones I meet with $200 million or some of them, pretty shitty people. You know, capitalism, at least up until now, highly rewards some pretty sociopathic behavior. And you know, back to like our industry specifically, it's an arts industry. So all these people who work with their artists and artists by nature, not all, but most have some kind of, whether they're aware of it or not, a hate of money. They hate money. It's

kind of the opposite of what they stand for. And that's another thing I had to make peace with and realize that it's not personal. Money is just a tool like anything else. And as long as you're getting it and earning it in an honest, helpful way, there's no shame in that at all. So, you know, that's, I think, an important one for tattooers that are listening, like make friends with money. Money isn't evil. Having a lot of money isn't evil. or

bad or whatever you want to call it. That, that has to do with your, your moral compass, how you treating people, how fair and honest are you with people? Do you think that money changes people? Oh yeah. Yeah. Money can buy freedom. Money can buy creativity. Money can buy space to explore these things, you know, and you know, how creative and how much beauty can you share with others if you're

scrounging for your rent? You know, I mean, the whole thing here is to become strong and stable enough to provide support with the people you love and the people you work with. It all takes money. That's the current system we're in. I didn't create it, but that's the one I got plopped into. It's just a game that we're all playing and just play it fair and play it honest. And you can have as much as Was there ever a moment where you were making a lot less money,

Yes. Well, yeah. Okay. Happier. Yeah. Maybe because happiness again, I think is somewhat of a fleeting thing. Like I don't focus on happiness anymore. I focus on contentment and fulfillment, which isn't always about being happy. You know, you can come home and be fulfilled after having to do something with someone that was difficult. Maybe telling a friend, I don't

think we can be friends anymore. You have, been dishonest with me on these occasions, and I'll always love you, but I think the best thing for you is for you to realize what you're doing, and my not talking to you anymore, I hope this is a gift. So I'm taking your number out of my phone, don't contact me and you're not allowed in my businesses. And I hope you do great. Now, that's not But it's, for me, would be, and I've done that. It's a very

fulfilling moment. It's going home knowing that was, in all the things I know, that was the most right thing I could think to do. You know, so yeah. Was I happier? Probably happier, yeah. When I was a young tattooer, I had a bitchin' house I was renting for super cheap right by the beach, which you can't even get down here anymore. Back then you could, probably making over 100k a year, 20 to 25 years ago. Wow. Always having 15, 20 in cash in a little safe in

my house. Girl, hot, sexy girlfriend, no kids. I had more times day to day where it was fun stuff was happening, you know? So life in response to businesses, children, a wife, all these things happen and there's just not as much, there's a lot more work to be done, you know? Very fulfilling work. But I'm not going to sit here and lie and be like, it's so joyful to go sit down with my accountants and have those meetings. It's necessary, but it's not, you know, my younger years, I could have went

That's always a great question. That's one I like to ask people too. I am probably most scared of looking back and at my life when that, you know, even now I'm looking back, but let's assume I'm going to live even longer. I just, that image of an old man who knows that the game is over. Maybe I'm still alive, but I'm not out there engaging with society

like I used to. I'm not running businesses. I'm not putting out art at that same level and having like regrets on how I Treated people, you know, like looking back and be like, that was really shitty the way I handled that relationship. That would be my biggest fear because the fear of, and I have a fear of death and I don't want to get anyone wrong. Trust me, if I'm laying on a table and they're telling me I got two hours left, I know there's going to be some trepidation and

anxiety. At least I assume there will be, maybe by then there won't be. But, um, that's less scary to me because that's inevitable. That's going to happen no matter what. This other thing I'm talking about, I can have, I have some level of control over. I can, I can mitigate that. So less of that and more of doing the right thing. Not necessarily the

nice thing, but the right thing. Based on all the knowledge that the universe was gracious enough, gave me all these situations to learn this and learn that and know more about this and know more about that. Taking all that together in every acute moment, a difficult moment, and being like, With everything I know and this is all I got and I may be missing something, but this is all I've got. I think this is the right thing to do and doing that, whether it hurts my income or not. So

Yeah. There's always that thing where, uh, I tell myself that my, my biggest wish is I wish I could be the people, the person that my Yeah. That's different for you. Well, I love my mom and dad, but they were just young and real young and Fighting for survival, so I didn't get as much like you might sounds like you got some more mature grounded parents Yeah, I mean like like my story is when I was nine.

I had an awesome mom I don't know. I don't really really awesome mom, which I couldn't tell how awesome she was at the time because I was a kid and When I was nine, she passed away. It was about a week before Christmas. And I was then left with my dad. And my dad was, you know, I don't want to say he was a workaholic, but he, you know, he tried, he worked

very, very hard to kind of provide for, you know, the family. But then all of a sudden he was like, you know, given this kid to just take care of. So I wouldn't say that by no means was the picture perfect, but he gave me the tools to at least get to where I am now. I'm really thankful for the gifts that he did give me. So often you hear about people whose parents are really reluctant to let them go into this, but from what my dad's shared with me, he

really wanted to go into journalism. Like he wanted to be like an investigative journalist and he didn't really get a chance to because he had to, you know, he had to finish his, he basically just had to get a career and start providing for a family. And so I think there's always been a part of him that was like, oh man, maybe I should have, I should have

gone for my dream. And so his, you know, kind of perspective, I think in terms of supporting me with my journey has been, I don't care what you do in life, you can, you can do whatever the hell you want, but you need to do it with like, you need to do it a hundred percent. And as long as you have passion, you're going to very naturally put in the work to do it. So he was super willing and able to give me

like whatever art materials I needed. He would be more than happy to spend the money because he really wanted me to fall in love with it, with the hopes, not the hopes, but with the faith that things are going to resolve themselves. And I think that's actually what ended up happening. I'm Yeah. And that's also like how lucky we are

to live in this time and in this place, right? Because there's thousands and thousands of years where you would, that would not be of service to tell a child, you know, a thousand years ago, tell a kid who's young, follow your dreams, follow your passion. And the kid's like a poet, And, um, there's neighboring tribes that might attack at any moment. I mean, you know what I mean? Like it just, I think about that a lot. I love the history from that perspective of really realizing that

we live in a time where that is true. I mean, especially here in America, you are passionate and you put the hard work in, there's almost nothing you can't do. You don't have to go do that job you don't like. Anymore might be some small caveats around that but generally speaking that's the case and it was cool of your dad coming from a generation where that was less accessible to know enough to tell you like. You can do that you seeing the future had like there is a prosperous country good

economy safe environment you know. We're not, we don't have neighbors around us that are at war with us. We don't have, you know, this is the time in history to follow your dreams specifically It was a real privilege. Cause like I, like, uh, I could have been in any other number Yeah. Yeah. And you might've done it anyway, in spite of it. Sometimes like my journey was sort of that way. It was sort of coming from a place of, in spite of, you know, like, Oh, Oh, you think,

uh, you think I can't make a living as an artist? I'll show you, I'll show everybody, you know, and here I am. And you know, they were never super negative, my parents, but culture and everybody had a lot enough people around me How do you feel, um, like that, that motivation and, uh, being motivated by spite, how do you think that has a different end result than, Well, Ultimately, I believe we exude a frequency, a signature. And I think that that signature attracts that same signature closer

to you. I think this is all part of this somewhat simulation or whatever we're in. And so if that motive, I think it can be of service for a time, but eventually you gotta kinda make peace with that, be honest with yourself about where that motivation is coming from, because to carry that with you is gonna attract that frequency. And it may not show up in the form of someone who's spiteful, but frequency has a similar, spitefulness has

a similar frequency to hatred or jealousy. If you could smoke a bowl of DMT and just say those words in your mind, you would see the geometric shapes in a DMT trip. instantly change to the thought vibration you have. So when you're scared in a DMT trip, everything gets very chaotic and not uniform and beautiful. And then if you find a place in the trip where you feel love, everything just goes instantly into this like perfect, beautiful mosaic pattern of energy around you. And so it's like a

communication. Well, it's not even a communication, it's just, Somehow you're in a paradigm where you get to visually and physically and emotionally experience it in the moment, how your thoughts affect your reality. So I think that would be not a good thing long-term. And I dropped that anger, spite thing about 10 years in. And it wasn't even anger, spite. It was pretty casual with me. It was just like, yeah, I'm gonna do this anyway. You know, but you'll see, fuck you, bye.

I didn't carry it to a high degree, but it was there. And then eventually I realized what that was, and I didn't want that energy in me. So I made peace with that, and now it comes from a more positive, loving place than it did then. Yeah there's some interesting you know i'll just say this story like there was a time in my career i had some pretty violent apprenticeships one that was nothing ever happened to me but i was in situations that i was very scared guns knives drug

dealers violent people i'm working with. Being at the shops I worked at in my early years was like being a part of a gang, even though it wasn't really, you know, I wasn't a gang member, but it was sort of like that. Like you work here, you're part of this gang. So you're down for the us, no matter what. And I was like, okay, because I couldn't find any other way to learn to tattoo. But by the time I got out of my last job, I was, I know now

I had like PTSD or something. Like I was literally scared. I wouldn't been scared, but I remember moving to San Diego and I would always have to sit in the corner of a restaurant or a bar. I didn't want anyone behind me. I don't even know what it was. I just knew I was like, that's fucking weird. Or I would always be like cautious around people. Like, is this guy about ready to do some violent shit? What I know now, looking back, I had, I was, I had a form of PTSD, so

I'm carrying around a vibration of fear and. Some of that stuff was happening in the early years of guru there is some people around the edges of it that were threatening and making threats and different things were happening and i remember i'll never forget i had i had one night. At my shop i was alone remodeling the upstairs and and a certain circumstance had kind of reared its head again. And I remember just started crying, and I looked up at the sky, and I was just like, what? Why?

Like, I just want to create love and friendship and beauty and art, and I can't seem to escape these type of people in my life. And I had a Christian would say, like, God spoke to me. But I had a message come through, and it was exactly that. Like, you're attracting it. you have in doubt with your own trauma, which is associated with being around violent people. And until you do, violent people will continue to show up in your life. And it was the most crazy

shit. Like that happened that night. And two weeks later, that thing that was happening for various reasons, I was told it was gone. And the timing of those two events was like, to me, a real big lesson from the universe of showing me, physically showing me, do you see what happens when you acknowledge what's actually happening and you see it for what it is? And I hadn't even gotten over that trauma yet, but I at least saw it. And then the process of, once you see it, that's healing,

right? As soon as you can see, The wound, from that day forward, it starts to heal. It might take another year, but it is going to heal as long as you're aware it exists. It's the unawareness that it's there is when you get the infections. So yeah, I think it has a lot to do with that. You said spite or just coming from just natural loving motivation, what's the price? That's how I think it would work in the long term. That's a good thing about this reality. Everything's happening in

kind of slow motion. That's the physical realm. That's another thing on the DMT trips. These dudes were like, see here where you're at now, everything happens instantly. You are a soul that's still working a lot out. So we put you in a realm that if you have a negative thought, a negative thing that's happened in that instant, But if you have them consistently long enough, slowly but surely, you're going to get that result of whatever that negativity or fear comes,

will come back to you. But they have it set up in a slow motion system, so we have time to work through this stuff. We're not ready to exist in that other realm, I don't think, because you got to be very tuned up to be there because every I do. Passion is like a form of energy, right? And none of us have an endless amount of energy. So the passion is the same. The passion is still there.

But I have 10 other things that need that same passion and energy. So it's the same, but I can't give as much of it to the thing. That's why I tattoo average of two days a week, because I've learned I can come in on those average of two days. Some days it's four and maybe I'm off a week,

but average it out two days a week. I know with my current responsibilities, my wife, my kids, my other businesses, that I can show up for those two days a week and bring that level of passion and commitment and just be stoked to be here and doing it. The joy, not just like, fuck, another day, 33 years of tattooing. another five day week of grinding these things, grind, grind, grind. I couldn't, I don't think, I would not be able to maintain that passion at five

days a week, or even more than what I am now. I tried for a little while, and it's one of the reasons I backed off. I was having days at work where I didn't want to be there. I'm like, this is a problem. Back to frequency, right? I am feeling in this moment like I don't want to be here. Oh my God, what am I going to attract with this? that probably ultimately this business will probably fail. Because I'm the frequency that attracts everything that makes this happen. And I'm feeling negative and

down. So I need to find a routine where I feel inspired and happy. And for me, it meant balancing out time. And I can't tattoo that much anymore. And if I wanted to, I'd have to, who knows what the future holds. As managers and my systems get more in place, it's weird, like time's coming back to me now. You know, people look at me with all, with everything I got going on. They're like, man, the guy must be so stretched. And I'm like, yeah, I was about nine

years ago and it was in it. But since then I've been able to put, I've learned a lot about business to the point where I feel like I'm getting more time now with much more going on. Just finding the right people, being able to make out enough revenue to pay them correctly and having delegating, you know, and that's been working out pretty good, which has been another cool. Growth. Thank you for those questions. That was fun for me to, it's funny when you, when you're forced to

answer questions like that, it's almost like you learn more. It's like if you had a great tennis swing and then somebody is like, how do you do that? And then you, now you have to tell them how to do that. Like that's another phase of, of, um, of learning is the ability to teach it to someone. You know, if you can find the words and the actions where someone can truly understand you well, you probably

understand it at an even deeper level. Right. So that you gave me the opportunity i think i had to tease some of that right here on the spot i know it i just don't get asked to think about it that often let's get into you know you mentioned earlier this i would call it a paradigm shift. That's occurring in in the world yeah right now i mean it. I think I can tell by your nature, you would probably agree this is historically monumental what's happening to culture and society and people at

You've got all these new things occurring. Um, quantum computing, AI, I don't know, aliens, like the government's openly telling people now straight up and no one even seems to care. I don't even know if they're real, but the fact they're even saying it, I'm like, Does anyone else see how weird this is? The government's admitting shit. So it's just a wild time. And now we have a president who, or administration that's tearing apart our current government.

And it's America, right? We're the leaders of the world in some respect. And we're having a I don't want to say it's good or bad. I'm not trying to support or not support anything. I'm just observing what's happening. That's interesting thing that's occurring right now. We don't see this in our government very often, like wrecking balls moving through and. So it'll be interesting to see what comes out of all this. And it's all happening simultaneously with AI and

quantum computing and all these other things. So that's just the acknowledgement of all this. So then based on that, what are your thoughts on that in general and maybe beyond general, how it might relate to tattooing in some way or, or the future of Well, before I address that, I think it's like very important to say that I'm a tattooer. I'm not an economist. I'm not a sociologist. So I can't speak it like with any sort of facts to OK, well, let me we'll start with, I think, possibly the most

digestible and topical one, which might be just AI. My stance on AI is I love it until the point that it encroaches on my safety. And I feel like that's a position that a lot of people have. So I mean, if I was a writer, I'd be fine with the other — maybe I wouldn't care about AI art as much, but I would care about losing my job as a writer, as a script writer. So I use ChatGPT just to kind of give me ideas about writing. I'll use it to kind of construct drafts for emails in

a prompt manner. So in that sense, it's great. When it comes to the use of it for images, I'm a little conflicted because I kind of have two conflicting thoughts about it. On one hand, a part of me does have a little bit of, you know, fear that it could kind of displace me. And that's something that you've kind of explored in a lot of your past episodes with people. But I'd say that's like only 20% fear. I think 80% of it is like,

I'm, I'm looking at it. I I'm, I'm not using it so much, uh, like through mid journey or anything like that, but I'll go on Pinterest, I'll find references and I get to see like 70 variations of the same image, like the same subject. And I'm given all of these potential options and examples of like, I'll just be going, maybe

this is a bit too boring, but I'll just go back to like design stuff. But, you know, if I'm doing like a fox and I want to have like a dark shape or a light shape, I can scan through 60 or 70 examples of that and I can find a solution to a problem. And it's not like I'm going to be using that reference in my own work, but that just

gives me a clue as to how I can draw it better. So in that sense, I don't mind using it for the generation of ideas, but in terms of am I ever actually going to use it for my designs, I'd rather not because I do art because I want to sit down and I want to have a conversation with the creative spirit. I don't want someone else to be doing it for me, more or less. That's my thoughts on AI in terms of the broader scope of what's happening

in the world. I'm in a weird way, like I was mentioning earlier, I've kind of surrendered to a lot of the stuff that's happening and my position is whatever will be will be. I can't control any of these sort of larger forces. Are you concerned at all as to the dismantling of America's institutions? I want to know that. I mean, I, I, I, in the, in the big picture way, I have this part of me that believes everything's always going to be okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. You know?

And, and so then from that place, I'm just like, whatever. I mean, I'm overt evil scares me. If someone told me there's a child rapist, they can't find them in my neighborhood. It's a different, that's an acute thing. There's a bear, I'm hiking and there is a grizzly bear, I can see him. It's with cubs.

This is dangerous. That's different. But when you talk about where the world is going and how we're all going to prosper or die or... I feel like in some weird way it's perfect and I would go beyond that to say and I think in some way it'll all make sense in a positive way

one day. I don't think a species can jump from where we're currently at to where I think we all can visualize where we might want to get, where we're on the same planet circling the universe and be a little better if we could find a way to get along and collaborate. We all know that we can't seem to get it done. And something new has got to show up because we as humans have exhibited over and over again that we can't figure this out. So what

is that? I don't know. Is it AI? Is it, you know, these governments going more populist and tearing down some of these old systems? I don't know. It probably will be some of a little bit of all those things. And, and, and through that process, things are going to break. You know, I just think that's inevitable. If you want to change a paradigm, there's going to be negative things and positive things happening simultaneously. But I think ultimately this is some part

of our beautiful human story. That's going to take us to another place one day, and that won't be the end. There'll be another place beyond that, but we are certainly shifting. And maybe it's, it's the ultimate test. Maybe it's kind of like figured out or die, which it does seem to where we're at. I mean, think if a AI and some of these new ideas weren't hitting the table and we just kept repeating the habits of humans for the last 200 years, I'm pretty sure we're fucked. So

let's shake it up is sort of my idea. You know, it's kind of like that idea of like, this is what I do in business. It's like my whole thing when something ain't working, I'm just like the one in the room going, let's just change. Yeah. Why do you want to change that way i'm not a hundred percent sure that's the right way but i ain't sitting here where we're at isn't working so let's just change

something something drastic. And if that doesn't seem to solution we have one because now we can check that off our list and let's change that something else then. So from that perspective, I do like all this paradigm breaking things that are happening, because I think we need to shake things up and we need to start discovering new solutions and new ways of viewing ourselves. And I think something good is ultimately going to come out of this. That's the big picture.

You know, microcosm, how it affects tattooing. I get more into a space of everyone can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. So the only response I would have towards AI is how I prefer to use it in my own personal life. I love the way you just said it because that's how you did it. I prefer to not just rip it off fucking Pinterest and tattoo it on people. I want to be part of this creative spirit. That's

what brings me joy. That's the reason I'm here, but it's a tool and it helps me get more in touch with that spirit and gets me to maybe even a better location more quickly. So I'm going to allow that Because I've heard quite a few interesting thoughts on your show regarding AI. So one that I might post to you, whether it's a question or I'm just asking you to kind of expand on this, is I'll often think to myself like, I'm seeing some crazy AI-generated

work. And the stuff that always blows my mind is how it's doing an incredible job at composition. An incredible job at composition. Like compositions that if I saw a human come up with them, I'd be blown away. And so I'm wondering to myself, could AI represent like the collective unconscious of what good composition is or like what we kind of believe beauty is? So I was having this conversation last night and the answer that someone told me was,

well, yes, obviously, because it's kind of drawing off of averages. But I'd like to know more of your thoughts about that, of like this idea that artificial intelligence is perhaps a representation of A hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, I was taught in a seminar I went to when I was younger, one plus one will always equal three, meaning synergy. So a single human

that's just powerfully creative is powerful. Two humans synergistically creating something together is three times, not twice as powerful, three times as powerful, in my opinion. So when you look at the amalgamation of all the creative acts that have ever occurred in the visual arts being kind of You know averaged into this these different results. Yeah i think you're getting something even more amazing you're getting the power of thousands of creatives who tried a million different things you

know there is the fear of homogenization. And I've seen it, I've seen it in some of my little scans through Pinterest. I'm like, oh, there's almost like a repeating thing that's happening throughout some of the work that I see. But this thing's infantile. I mean, it's just getting going. And I think it's anything that can bring novel, new ideas into the human psyche, the human space, I think it

can only be beneficial. And whatever jobs get lost and and all that is it's again You're gonna take you got to break some eggs to make an omelet So I think it's ultimately gonna be good and that's just the arts. I mean We're not even talking about curing cancer or how to turn seawater into drinkable water in the most efficient energy conservative way. And God damn, we all know that this thing as it grows could just be beautiful, but somebody

is going to use it to make a fucking dirty bomb too. So we got, we're why. And the other thing is we're walking, I don't see any way A particular fear that I have is not so much like this initial loss in jobs, but a big concern that I have is, you know, like we were saying earlier, already there are like so many people whose

parents are telling them like, no, don't go into this. And so like, you know, young creative individuals are going to have even less of an incentive to like, let's say, go to art school to kind of pursue these things as a career, because there's just not going to be the opportunity to kind of live a sustained, fulfilling life through that. So my concern is, after 20 years, or after 30 years of not having as many people go into the arts, what's going to happen

to us in terms of a culture? That's a big worry that I have. That's an interesting, I haven't thought of that. I think enough people, still humans, will still be involved with this thing that we will still have some kind of, but the results will be some kind of combination of artificial intelligence and human management of that intelligence and together that produces something novel and new. I think there'll be enough

people that still will. Maybe it won't be as many because the job opportunities aren't there, but we also don't know where AI is taking us in regards to jobs. I mean, it's a pretty archaic idea that a human has to labor for its survival. I think that AI is going to start highlighting that. like technology should eventually be able to take care of our most basic human needs, medicine, um, a home, you know, all these things. There's no reason we can't build

a future where that's just handled. And now maybe you do become a musician because you can, because it's not, you're being able to feed yourself and all that is taken care of. You don't have to worry about the job aspect of it. I know that's maybe a little ways off, maybe not. I mean, this stuff's moving so quick, maybe it's not. But maybe that's 15, 20, 50 years out there. But if we don't blow ourselves up between Okay. So if you're, let's say that's the case. A.I.s, it's taking care of you.

You don't have to worry about money anymore. What are you going to do with that time? Are you going Right now, if it happened today? Yeah. Yeah, I would. Yeah, I think it would leave a big hole in me if I wasn't continuing to do a craft that I can still do. I mean, I'll quit the day I can't do it anymore. You know, the day I consistently see bad results occurring because my hand's shaking or I can't see clear enough, I'm

happy to go home and paint then. Get a little abstract. I'll find another way to express myself creatively, but I still have it and I can still produce beautiful tattoos that people love and I would need to do that. It's part of my fulfillment. It's part of my joy. I think a bigger question would be the one I always hear is what will the average humans do when they don't have to

do anything anymore? That's an interesting one and i really yeah that one i think is hotly debated and i don't i go both ways i'm like i do i do think in the beginning you'll probably get a ton of people it'll just sit at home play video games and just fuck their lives away. But i think in time is this new culture evolves they'll be new leaders and new and inspiring people that will start. developing a new paradigm where you're taught from birth that you're

welcome to Earth. It's a rad place. What you're supposed to do here is find your joy. Follow your heart's desire. Without that part of, oh, but you gotta go to college, and make sure you save some money, and you have rent to pay. I mean, that changes a kid's development completely. But imagine a generation of children that are born into this new world where that's taken off the

table. In other words, when it kicks into gear, The ones that are already 25 years old, well, a big chunk of those are probably just gonna suck the AI titty and waste their lives. But to the next generation behind that, where they're born into it existing, then

I think you'll see that problem less and less. And you'll see a more evolved people, people that are focused more on their spiritual development, people that are focused more on helping others, providing some kind of loving service, or creating music, or art, or, Um, whatever. There's a lot of things I think people would find to do if they knew from, from Well, I don't actually, I just believe in a version, like what I'm describing, I don't think

would be utopia. I think there's still going to be friction between, I don't know what, But much less. I mean, the amount of friction we have on the planet today is abhorrent. It's absolutely abhorrent. The fact that we're still shooting each other with guns and, and missiles and stuff. It's crazy. It's absolutely nuts. And I don't think enough people pause to think about that. Like, what are we doing to one another? You know, like we

all have to live on the boat and the boat sinking. Everyone knows it, but no one seems to want to fix it. So that just to go to where I'm talking about, there'll be still be friction, but at least we get rid of the archaic monkey brain stuff and get onto a more evolved type of friction. You know, which might be which planet we need to inhabit and why and what benefit we can be to the universe or

whatever the new debates will be. We're not going to sit around and debate on So yeah, Utopia, I don't think that's a physical form thing. And I'll honestly, I mean, my belief is that in the end of the entire cycle, everything merges back to one point, which was the original consciousness, God, whatever you want to call it. That's probably, if I had to visualize the point of utopia, that's probably it. It's just, you know, the universe expands out into chaos, it reorganizes itself

through billions and billions of years. the elevation of consciousness and awareness, and it gets closer and closer and closer and closer until everything in the universe is almost completely awake, and You should definitely go to Jeff Gogoway's Oh, okay. I was thinking about going to that. You know, me and Jeff are friends. I guest spot. I heard you say that I've worked with him and love

Yeah. That's the whole idea of the seminar. I don't want to give you any spoilers, but it's, it, it left a pretty profound impact on me seeing that, seeing that, uh, that talk that he Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me. Me and, me and Jeff, I did a lot of my left side and. Oh really? Yeah. And, uh, this is all we do. He constantly would be saying stuff. I'm like, that's exactly what I was thinking, you know? So that wouldn't surprise me. It's cool. He's put it into a seminar.

That's rad. I will check it out. Well, maybe we'll go. We've been going about it a little while here, so we're going to get close to the end here. But before we do, we've been out here in the ether. I'm going to bring it back to analog. How do you feel? Like I look at some of the like heated debates that are happening in the tattoo industry right now. And one of them that's kind of been going around a lot about numbing cream and anesthesia tattooing.

I can only speak to what I've gotten through getting tattooed and what benefits I've received. I can't speak as to what anybody else should be doing. Because what everybody else wants from a tattoo is going to be different. But the more I've gotten tattooed, the more I've... realized that the best part about getting tattooing, sorry, getting tattooed has nothing to do with the tattoo. It's more so like the transformation that kind of goes through having to

sit through that process. The tattoo is more of just like a participation trophy at the end of it, but that's what I gained from tattooing. So when it comes to things like anesthesia and tattooing and numbing cream, I would just ask the person like, what is it that you want to get out of tattooing? Because If you're looking for an image, then by all means just do it up. I don't see any issue up. Mind you, I know that, you know, there's, there's, uh, the guy that recently passed away. Yeah.

Horrible news about that. But I, you know, I, I actually, I, I, I saw, you know, when you guys were doing that, a bunch of you guys were tattooing someone on anesthesia and I really appreciated like the nuance of whether it was yourself or as a shop manager, I can't remember who was responding to comments about it, more or less just saying like this individual has been like very heavily tattooed in this, you know, this is one instance where, of course

I'm paraphrasing, so correct me where I'm wrong here, but it's kind of like just for this one tattoo, you just kind of want to get it over with. And I appreciated that nuance because it's not like a black or white issue. Like just because I believe that there's a benefit in going through it, that doesn't mean that I'm going to force that on anybody else. So I just, I leave that I think you couldn't have said it more perfectly. We're completely in alignment

on that. And I, you know, obviously I'm a little more in the middle of this because we did this and uh, and I felt that way before I did it. I mean, I had to definitely, when it first was proposed, I, I hadn't thought about it that much. And I did think about it. And when I really got deeper into it, I went to kind of what you're saying, which is I'm not, what right do I have to decide what kind of experience you

want to have in your life? Whether it be anything, who you marry, what kind of extracurricular sports you enjoy, how you want to get tattooed. The only right I have is to decide if I want to be a part of it or not. And I have that right. And I chose to be a part of it. And I respect any tattooer that's like, I will never do that. I will never have it done to me, and I will never

be in a room where that's being done. Totally respect that. The line that got crossed is still getting crossed by some people out there is, it goes into this space of, you shouldn't do that. That is a problem for me. And not just on this subject, that's a problem for me on almost any subject. The only caveat to telling someone you shouldn't do that, and I've held true to this my whole life, is if they are hurting others.

And I think you have the right to stand up and tell them, you shouldn't do that. In fact, we should stop you from doing that, because you're hurting other people. Anything else? How can I say you want to not wear a helmet and race through You know, so then maybe that's not even a good example. Cause the guy racing traffic, it'll maybe hurt somebody else, but you want to climb ever Everest and

there's a 10% chance you might die. Okay. You know, there's so many things we do as humans that you, you could be seriously injured or die doing it. And we don't hear anybody screaming about skydiving or scuba diving or any of those base jumping or climbing big mountains. Nobody says anything. We don't hear anything out there about no

woman should ever get breast implants. You'll hear it, but yet the first person that dies under anesthesia while getting tattooed in the whole not the whole industry, but a lot of voices had a lot to say about that. And for me, especially from tattooers, I was I was a little bit like, oh, my God, like I always thought I was in a culture of like the artist culture, the live and let live culture, the. Go against the grain culture and you do you man, as long as it doesn't affect

me, you can do whatever you want. You want purple hair. You want to, you want to the word fucking sex on your forehead. Okay. I wouldn't put the word, any word on my forehead, but I'm fuck. Yeah. You go have that on. That was the culture. I thought I'm a part, I think I am a part of it, but when, And again, I'm also aware that online is a bad way to really get a feel for what everyone out there is doing. Because most people don't comment, but some people do.

So you get this little fraction of people saying it. I don't think it really represents the majority of our tattoo industry. But just in response to that little negative reaction, my response is just, I don't understand where Yeah, I think it's just we all have, we all have different values as to what tattooing means to us. And I don't, I mean, I'm seeing the green side of a mango and they're seeing the red side of a mango. And it's, neither

perspective, I think, is wrong. But, you know, the individuals that are going to, like, they're going to have this sort of core set

of beliefs as to, like, what they think tattooing should be. And I kind of have mine, but perhaps the way that I've kind of changed is I've, I've been a lot, I haven't hold those, I don't hold my thoughts or opinions so tightly anymore, because I've just been proved wrong time and time again in my in my life that it doesn't really seem to make sense and I have like really strong opinions. So if you were like if you're a friend and you don't have

any tattoos yet and you're asking me, should I get numbing cream? I'd be honest and I'd say that I think you're going to be missing out on one of the best parts of tattooing which is going to be going past like your own limitations and like the gift that that specifically gives you. You're going to be missing out on that but if that's not important to you then by all means do whatever you

We couldn't agree more. And I actually feel the same way. If you're asking for my advice, I would say that I might not have said that to this particular gentleman. I know him very well. And his story made more sense than some, you know, there's one example would be, I've never been tattooed before and I'm totally scared. So I'm going to use numbing cream or I'm going to go in or anesthesia. Then

I would probably say what you said. This guy was coming from a different place of like, heavily tattooed already, super busy, loves the way it looks, just would like to get this done and get back to his wife and kids, you know? And I was like, you know, I personally wouldn't go under anesthesia. The risk of anesthesia isn't worth getting rid of the pain. And plus I'm with you. I, I kind of enjoy that like experience of challenging myself in

that way. Then having gotten through it and that, that high you Well, imagine if, you know, you had been knocked out the entire time Oh yeah, it would have been, that's a specific session I would never have done. I mean, half the reason I was getting tattooed by Jeff Gogue is to get to know Jeff Gogue because I'm such an admirer of his work.

you know but yes you're right i would have missed out on all of it yeah i have this piece maybe it's beautiful but all that experience would be gone but i do think it's good i like the way you said you said that and i want that message to get out there more i want to challenge some of these people in the realm of just And you know, it kinda goes, it just echoes

out into so many of the other problems that our world is having. And when I look at those problems, I see a lot of people who are making the way they think we should all behave the way it should be and condemning anybody else who doesn't do it their way. You see that in all these wars and all these political arguments and all this. Just negative stuff and i'm like it's just we all gotta stop doing that just if you're not hurting anybody then do what

you want. What's that simple and it's so it's like it goes beyond the people's opinion of just anesthesia tattooing to me the reason i talk about it more. Some people might think what aaron's done one so he's probably that's aaron he's probably is butthurt or defensive right now. I'm not, I'm really not. I've kind of been enjoying it actually. And I knew when I did that, there would be some of this and I was like, you know, bring it. It's kind

of entertaining. But the reason I brought it up more is I think it just is a microcosm example of a bigger problem. So, you know, I'm Well, I mean, it's just an issue that exists in painting. Like, can you believe that? Like I remember 20 years ago, people were saying, Oh, that person's not a real artist. Cause they're using a projector to put their image on. Right. Right. Like, like, uh, what a ridiculous thing Or bought an iPad. Yeah. You know, can't be, that's

not real art. I'm like, what do you mean you draw on it? And That's cool. Very cool. Well, we have got some time under our belt here today, so we're going to wrap it up soon. Is there anything you wanted to, did anything you wanted to bring Oh, let's do it again. I love part twos. Cause part one is a lot of like you learning about me, me learning about you. And then part twos Oh, okay. I'll look at my schedule. We'll talk after afterwards about that. Um,

uh, cool, man. Well, thank you for your authenticity. I would say it. I, that's one of the things that struck me when I heard you on fireside chats is, Man, that's a guy who's really thinking about how he feels about something. He's not just repeating what his dad told him or what the shop owner told him. You can feel that in certain way. People talk, they're repeating things. They were told having never maybe questioned the thing

they were told. And now it's a part of them and they don't even take the time to look back and be like, do I actually believe the shit I think, or did I just adopt it? And I can tell you one of those people that's doing that Well, I think just like I was mentioning earlier, like I've just been proved wrong so many times in my life. I appreciate the compliment of, of being said that I'm, that I'm authentic, but I

would feel more comfortable with the word curious. And I would hope that if, you know, if you'd asked me the same set of questions a year from now, they're going to, they're going to be a completely different And that's the gift of never anchoring yourself 100% in a belief. Yeah. That's probably the biggest thing I think I reminded myself of today is always leave that little piece of you that's like, maybe that's not true.

Right now it seems extremely true. It's very, by following this belief, it's giving me good results in my life, but I'm open to one day this being not true or less true. You know, that is a good place to find yourself as a human and as an artist. You know, when you see great artists that are evolving quickly, I see a person who never became personally attached to a particular way

of doing something. Yeah. It's very easy to do. You know, you do this way, a certain thing, and then it's like, you just do like that for the next five years because you, everyone went like this the first time. So I'll just repeat, you know, There's something in there. There's a jewel in there, especially for Thank you, my friend. We'll talk again soon. Thank you everybody. Thank you for tuning in. Appreciate the likes and the comments and

the subscriptions and especially the DMS. Please keep them coming. I love talking to you guys and I'd like to hear about who you want to see on the show. Send them my way until next time. Take care, big love and uh, find something nice to do out there today. Just anything. Just do something fucking nice for somebody. I think that's a good once a day do something, you know, overtly nice. Yeah. All