300 · Patrick Petersson - We Should Not Die as Traders

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Trading in the financial markets involves a risk of loss. Podcast episodes and other content produced by Chatwith Traders are for informational or educational purposes only and do not constitute trading or investment recommendations or advice. So how often do you encounter traders who say learn a lesson in a particular uh market uh regime, like a particular type of market?

And then time goes by and then they forget that or they they ignore the lessons that they learned in the past. Like for example, during the COVID time when we had that huge drop and the VIX goes up. And they learn all about volatility and then some years later the it things calm down and um how frequent have you found were Traders forget the lessons they'd learned in the past or discount them and think, well, maybe this time it's different.

Yeah. really good question i think everyone is guilty me also uh we can Because we can take lessons every single day from the market and we find something where we exactly know oh stupid, why I'm doing this. So I I give you some example from from my trading. And we meet again on Chat with Traders, episode 300, nice big round number. We should not die as traders. Hey, what's that all about? Guess what? You'll find out.

This is Tessa, your co-host, and I'm really thrilled about introducing today's episode because this guest is special to us. We first discovered him in our own online chat with traders community about two years ago when it was open, two years after first appearing on episode 260. If you missed it, you can listen to it. This intuitive price action news based scalper trader who breeds in

The market is back. Yep. It's Patrick Peterson with that unmistakable voice. And he's back to chat with my co-host Ian. in a refreshingly blunt conversation, we get to catch up with Patrick and see what he's up to these days. Patrick shares in a very real way practical, real life trading topics and issues that traders are facing today, including the psychological and practical challenges of trading, the role community and engagement plays into one's trading development.

And, you know, coming out from isolation and to collaboration in his own trading evolution, he shares a lot about the importance of community and also his thoughts on current issues like the sharp divide between traders risking their own capital and those cycling through prop firm challenges. And he talks about also how there's No shortage of tools, but there are shortages, real shortages of real honest guidance for traders and so much more.

Also, don't miss my little catch-up with Patrick towards the end. All right, let's get straight to it. Ladies and gentlemen, we're so thrilled to welcome back Patrick Peterson, originally from Germany. Hello everyone. This is uh your host, Ian Cox here at Chat With Traders. And about two years ago, in episode two sixty, I had the pleasure of interviewing Patrick Peterson. An intuitive news based market action trader.

who took money given to him by his parents with the purpose of buying a car, but instead took that money and started secretly trading after opening his first trading account on his 18th birthday. Patrick, welcome back to Chat with Traders. Yeah, welcome Ian. It's an honor for me to be here and yeah, thank you for having me here.

Fantastic. Yeah. So uh when I last interviewed you in twenty twenty three, if we could go back to that time and if you could give us um kind of a historical update and what you've been doing and learning since then. Wow. So and it may be uh two years, but it feels like twenty years. So there's so much going on. And everything is starting with the Shed with Traders community. Everyone knows.

So um we was making the decision after one year that we closed this. There was uh some some good reasons for this. Then the life after. So I found a new community. Um it's the Mentor Q community. Um and yeah, now I'm being business partner from Mentor Cube. And I'd be honored to be in the community, to be the mentor, to develop also products for traders.

um to give all my experience there. So that's basically what what was happened the last um two years. But behind the scenes, there's so much more going on. Yeah. And so prior to being involved with the Chat with Traders community, did you have much experience interacting with other traders in other communities in the past, or had you been kind of more go it alone and just Trade by yourself and not have No, I'm only a lonely one. So maybe um I'm the only one.

But since I was uh joining the Shat with Traders community, everything was changed. Um as I told to Tessa, I think everyone knows the story. I'll I can tell it again. So I was ne I was never speaking to some uh Asia people. This was not normal for me. or to have friendship um with uh let's say black people. So black people are now my best friend. So this was this was something what was happening in the Shatworth Traders community. So to be open.

for the worldwide. So we're having friends in Australia, we're having friends in Africa, we're having friends in Brazil, we're having friends in Canada. I was meet Steve by the way in the Shepherd with Tatos community. He was also on your broadcast. Um big shout out to him. And also this is something what was life changing for me.

And um I can tell everyone who's listened to the broadcast, go in some community. Find something where you can find your second home, having good friends around you who support you as trader, who challenge you as trader, who becomes accountability to you, who helping you to grow. So be strong as a team. And this was something what I was learning in the Shatworth Traders community. I was never be a team player, but since Chandrift Traders, I am.

What was it like being in a community and transitioning to a team player? Like what Tell us what did you experience with um either what you heard or read from the other team members and then what you suggested as well to them. It's it's about the the problems what traders have, I think. Um every every trader has some some problem. There's no trader outside who's perfect. Everyone has something who he struggled with. And basically Even you?

Yeah, and yeah, and everyone, Ian, I I can tell you, you struggling with the same same stuff what I'm struggling, but on a different way. And the cool stuff in a community is I become the experience from you and you become the experience from me. I see your view of this problem and you get my view on this problem. And that's the opportunity where we can grow together as a trader. And this was something what was so so helpful. And in the moment where I was understanding this, sharing.

Um, my experience with the people, I get feedback from the people. They say, hey, that's amazing what you're doing. I'm struggling with this, I'm struggling with this. And then I was thinking like, hey, I'm struggling with the same, but on a different way. And again, that that's something what is so powerful in the community. But To be really honest. I'd be a little bit pissed off. So I I'd be a straight shooter, as everyone knows in the in the f um uh uh episode 260. Um I'm really pissed.

If you're looking in in into the community world There are so many bullshit going on. So many people posting only his porn PNLs. They say, hey, I was making 4,000 US dollars. I'm making 5,000 US dollars. They say put putting on some charts and all this stuff. But this is not really what helping the people. So I can tell you, I have now a five-year son and I teach him to trading and he asking me every time, hey daddy, why? Why are you going long? Why are you doing this? Why, why, why, why?

And for him, I must explain this to him that he understands this with his five-year mind. And this is something what I'm missing in the community world and also from all experienced trainers because there's so much bullshit going on. I give you one example what what was really triggered me the last few weeks.

When we're getting the terrorist news, the VIX goes really crazy to the upside. As everyone knows, everyone was speaking about, hey, the VIX is going crazy. There's so much volatility around. But no one, but maybe there was some people. Also I'm guilty also. No one was there and teach the people, maybe the the new ones or people who are not so experienced with this. Hey, what is this meaning?

What is this meaning for your trading? What is this meaning for your risk management? What is this meaning for your position size? What is this meaning for your take profit? What is this meaning basically for your trading approach? No one is talking about this. Everyone is talking about the mathematical, um, the trading perspective, but no one is helping the traders outside.

I can I can tell you there are not so much people outside who are understanding the RIX, how everything works. And they don't need the mathematical. The only thing what they need is: hey, if the RIX goes to this. be careful, then then you can do like this, you can do like this. Give them some really handoff like as I teach this my five year son. Hey, I I told my my son, the Rix is now basically on 50.

We will not trading. Our only setup is we're waiting that the rigs comes down, because if the rigs comes down, we can make so much profit and we will not be involved in the volatility. And we're waiting carefully, be patient. And then I teach them how to be risk management, what we should do. We're going only little tiny small size because this little tiny small size making us so much big profit.

And this is something what I was missing outside that people teaching other people what they should do and in a really simple approach.

I don't know in the marketing world There's something what people saying always. There's some approach. And they saying, hey, basically, if you cannot sell this product in simple words to your grandma, then that's bullshit. And it's the same in trading. If we cannot teach in five year

son or our grandma about the VIX, what they should do, then it's bullshit. And this is something where we should be all all people uh thinking about to make uh trading a little bit easier to understand outside for the people. And basically, now you trigger me and basically for for our kids outside and for the young people, there are so many young people who are getting distracted in the social world.

They they have no really fun anymore. They they they're playing uh, I don't know, computer games or they're doing bullshit basically. But we have now the opportunity to go to the young people and teach them trading, teach them how they can be become maybe in ten, twenty, thirty years, financial free. In a really simple approach and teach them thus like this, that they really like this, that they enjoy this.

That's a feeling fun to trade. That's a thinking like, hey man, that's exactly what I want. This is what I can do and bring them from the streets, bring them from the hood. Don't teach them how to sell any bullshit on the streets. Teach them how they can make money on legal rate in the market. Teach them this really simple.

And then we can save so many lives, we can we can make so many people in the future financially independent. And this is something what I was uh learning also through the community. Because people liking the simple approach. Uh-huh. So what is it about the VIX? I mean, uh a high VIX means there's high volatility. And don't traders thrive on high volatility opportunities? I mean, isn't isn't having a high VIX? actually good for uh opportunities?

Okay. I w I will make this as simple as possible because I I don't wanna explain the risks. I'm I'm not I'm not good in this. I I know I know the terminology, but I'm not good in this, to be really honest. But The the really good example is if if you was trading on the high wigs for a few weeks when we get the terrorists on the Trump, everything was going on, everyone knows it. If you was trading the ES, Basically you have the feeling you're trading the NQ. Mm-hmm.

Some because your PNL was running very crazy to the upside and to the downside. That's basically high volatility. If you trading normally, like for example, two ES contract. And the PL is not rising so fast to the upside or to the downside. But with high volatility, you can have huge moves to the upside and to the downside. Looking to the downside, risk always first, so you can lose so much money.

And if you don't know it, what you should do in doing high volatility, that's badass and you lose so much money and time. And basically, if I was trading the NQ, I'm trading mostly the NQ, I was feeling like I'm trading the the the Bitcoin. like the the numbers going crazy to the upside and to the downside. So what I should be doing, I should be now reducing my exposure.

Thinking about no more trading the futures, maybe trading now the ETFs, because I save capital, I save exposure, I'm not going so much in the drought on or take back from the market and come back when the volatility comes down. Um so basically this is something what happens in high volatility in simple terms. Because on my side, where I be, I know so many people taking so many losses, so many blow-ups during the last few weeks, because there was no experience with.

And this is something what I mean basically. This is why I'm also guilty, not teaching them, hey, if you see something like this, be very careful. This is meaning uh you can make good money, but you can lose very fast. And this is no more fun. This is really like trading now not your size, what you're doing normally. Take it a little bit step back.

Well this is what I mean. Teach them this basically. What is this really meaning? We can now going in the mathematically stuff what is the rigs and why everything is changing. But this is not what the people helping. Mm-hmm. Would wouldn't um I mean, wouldn't many traders just come back and say, Oh, well, you know, whether it's low volatility or high volatility is as long as you have your stop losses in, uh, um, it should be the same. Um, right? I mean, why

Why does it matter? I'm I'm protected with my stop loss order, right? Thanks, Sam. Okay, so in high volatility you have your normal stop loss. Let's say normally if you your stop loss will be hit in if you be wrong in 10 minutes, 15 minutes, depend on your trading style. But on high volatility, it can be hit in one minute.

And there's the question, do you trade in your normal style with your risk approach and you get hit in one minute very fast? And and if you was hitting first time, then you will go again. You will hit again. You will go in again. And then the mind comes into play. What is the mind telling you? You say, no, that's impossible. What's going on? And you're taking bigger size because you want taking your your losers back and then boom. It's happened. You blow up.

I I see. So you uh are you saying that um during periods of high volatility when a trader gets stopped out easily and uh quickly? That there can easily be the tendency for them to um maybe want a revenge trade to get back to recoup their losses. Yes. So I was observing on the NQ during the high volatility that one candle have an average one minute or two minute time frame from from 100 points. That's crazy.

So basically you're putting the trigger and you can immediately in very good profits or you lose. So that's something what is really bad. So if you're trading your normal size. So that's why. It would be better to teach the new ones, hey, if you see the VIXs on level like this.

Take care of your risk management. Don't trade your normal position size. Um If you're trading normally um the ES, let's say two contracts, go into MES or go into the ETFs, or take a step back and wait maybe one week before everything becomes calmer. Because the risk is too big. You can battle on this, but there's a high chance that you're taking stupid losses.

Mm-hmm. Wouldn't but uh wouldn't some uh technicians, uh people just follow the charts, argue, well, that's not a problem. I mean, whether it's high volatility or low volatility, you can read everything in the chart and uh and you know, I'll just I'll get close to the bottom and I'll buy there and go long. And what's what's there to to worry about? Do we could just just follow your indicators, right? Yeah, so the only thing where you should be worried about is is the average candle.

So let's say so the normal uh average true range, if we're speaking about the ATR, um let's talk about the ES on the five minute would be between five and ten. Nothing is big, nothing is is crazy, everything is fine. But now we have an average true range on fifty point. Or 60 points. That's crazy. That means your risk level is now 10x. It's possible that you can make 10x more profits, but it's also possible that you can make 10x.

faster losing. And if you're not be aware of this, if you don't know it, because you was not experienced something like this, think about what was happening on Corona or when we get into financial crisis, how fast everything was going. It was really fast. If he was not acting fast enough, he wasn't troubled. And that's something what we were seeing in the last um few days everything becomes now normal, but the the few days it was really crazy and so many people losing money and so many people

Having now going back to work was before maybe um full-time traders, they have now to go into work because they're losing so much money. Yes. Have you met any people like that? I was talking to some people They was really surprised about this. Have you ever watched a stock explode and thought, if only I had the capital, or sat on the sidelines because your account balance felt too small to matter? Good news.

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Because what the people not doing is maybe they're not looking to the vehicle. So if you're trading the ES, you have not side by side your ES chart and the rig shot and see what's going on on the rig. So you not possible not be aware, or you listen to something on on X or on YouTube or on CNBC, wherever, and they're speaking about the VIX. But they're speaking this in so

are complicated stuff that people not follow this. They say, ah, let's talk are they talking about VIPs? Who cares about? Whoa, whoa, whoa. It's really important for you to know it. Because if C N B C would say to the people, take care of Uh there must be a better risk management for you. You can lose faster money. They will not do this. There's some reason why they don't do it. And that's something where we where we all be guilty.

To not teach the people in simple stuff, what is the meaning behind? What is the meaning when the Riggs goes crazy to 50 or 60 or 70? What's the meaning? And also if you see people talking about trading schmutz. They make this they're making this so so hard complicated that that you cannot follow this. So basically Well when we're talking about some trading strategy and what people want to see, hey, when I should be go short, when I should be go long, when I should be getting out of the market.

And they want this in a really simple approach, like a five year old son or an eighty year old grandma. They want only know hey when I should be pulling my trigger, short, long, and when I should be getting out of the market. That's what the people want. Like telling them, hey, if you see A, then you can go long. If you see B, then you can go short. If you see C, be neutral.

And then have back test data where you can say, okay, this is based on back test data. Most of the time, if A is coming up, it's a good opportunity to go long. And I explain you why. And this is something what I'm doing also. So that's something what I miss. And this is also what I'm teaching when I be live on YouTube for Mentor Q about options data and all this stuff. I simplify everything that everyone can follow this.

For me, the options work. I'm not understanding the options work, but I know how I can leverage based on the options data. This doesn't mean that I must be understanding options. But I know exactly how you can use this as futures trade or as a stock trader, not as an options trader. Options trading is completely different. So that's something what I mean. Give them really simple approach. Help the people outside. And that's the big goal I think everyone should do.

Why do you think it is that uh the financial media, when they talk about the high VIX, why don't they teach traders? and their listeners on, oh, we make sure you do this and don't do that. Um, here's what the hivex means and and position sizing and all that. I mean, you would think it would be simple enough for them to explain this, right? Uh why do you think they don't share that? Okay, the other question. So because I I don't want bring shed with traders in trouble.

So we we can also speak about um the casino when we go to Las Vegas, why the casino owners uh don't tell us if he was making some good profits. uh go go away and not play again. Why they don't teaching us this? Because at the end they will win. They were making his money no matter what. And now come back to CNBC, why they should do that. So who supports CNBC? Look into who is the owner from CNBC, who supports CNBC, did they have some interest in the teaching you what you should do?

When they make him when they make their money. Basically there's no interesting Uh-huh. So uh the traders who say got hurt uh recently, um just within the last number of weeks with a with a high volatility. D in your um uh experience, are the vast majority of these traders pretty new traders that weren't around during the COVID uh crash that also had high volatility? It's mixed. So there are new traders, they are experienced traders, people who forget.

And Most of the time, I think it's also um lack of education. So Did the people doing really his homework, let's say, invest something into be become educated? So did say read something. We can make it really simple. So every trader outside can make it so simple as possible. If I'm not understand something what other people say, you can use Chat GPT.

You can say you put in what they're talking about, give them only some topic, and then say to ChatGPT, hey ChatGPT, please explain this to me in a simple and easy language. And then hey, give me some example uh who's maybe not trading so that I can understand this better. And then they give you some storytelling uh information. And then you say, Oh now I'm understanding this. Why no one was teaching me like this? So simple. Why there must be everything coded that no one would is understanding?

And that's something what I'm thinking like education, it's the part of your, but for us who have maybe community. or who I say a little bit influencers or who have some products, product owners, or prof film. Think about why you're making your product not a little bit easier, why you not explain a little bit more. Why you not simplify your trading approach that everyone can follow this? And if I can say something, there's I can shut out something and this is SMB capital.

SMB Capital and Bella, you know Bella, he was many times here. They they make this also really simple for the people to understand trading strategies, what they're using on the trading deck. And this is something when people when I talk to people Hey, where you was learning uh trading. Yeah, I was watching YouTube. And if if you know if they're talking about SMB capital, everyone knows SMB capital. And why? Because they explain it so easy that everyone can understand it.

And that's something what we all have to follow. And that's so crazy. Why we don't do this? Because people want sell online courses, people want selling overpriced products, people want selling mentorships. And then you're buying the the online course and you're thinking bullshit. They're talking bullshit because they don't know something. So basically So go go into that more. I mean, um uh to give them uh potential benefit of the doubt. Uh uh

Couldn't we say, well, heck, I mean, how do we really know that uh what they're peddling is bullshit? Like what what is it that they communicate? is is nonsense. And how how would a uh viewer know the difference between a channel that is communicating true facts and those who are total exaggeration? Really simple. Really simple. So before you um buying some online course, buying some mentorship. Ask the people for a verified track record.

Where they trade his own money, not proper money, where they have certificates or other accounts. No, I won't see that they're trading his own capital. So and then they'd say doing this for minimum five years. So because why I'm asking for five years? Because then I see how they how they having how they're reacting on bad times. Everyone can post, hey, I have a Ferravi, I have a, I don't know, whatever car, I have this, I have this.

But this is something what what I don't want to see. I want to see how you was reacting on bad times when you wasn't drawn on from 10%. what you was doing, what was your approach? And also I want see that what you're teaching me that you're doing this on your own end. Not like hey, I'm teaching you this, but I give a shit about this. I don't do this.

So tell us um uh what's wrong with having uh a verified track record from a prop firm? What is the difference, say, trading with the prop firm versus trading on your own? So basically I will never bullshit any problem. Never. But what I really not like if people ask me about mentorship, if people are asking about online courses. So You know it also, Ian. So you can buy a challenge for I don't know 50 US dollars. You get an account from 100k for futures.

And maybe you will lose the first challenge, correct? So that's maybe possible the first step. You lose. And then you take again the challenge, you lose. So basically, now you're having losing signs. And then you're getting um the funded account. You lose your funded account. And then maybe you have to start the challenge again and again and again. And it takes you maybe, I don't know. Two months, three months, four months, five months, to the first payout.

And then they're showing you hey I have now the search. I'd be a good trader. No sham. If you would do this, what you're doing on the prop films on your real account, you will be broke because you get maybe 10,000 US dollars payout. But you was losing before 30,000 Westons because on all the accounts what you're blowing up. So basically you're not a break-even trader, you're a losing trader. And that's why that's why I want to see that's a trading his own.

Because you were never doing some bullshit like this with your own capital. So are you saying that by trading your own capital you will be more careful or you'll do something uh your habits will be different than you will be with Yeah. Oh yeah, please explain. Yeah, 100%. I can give you an example. Yes. There's some really good friend, there's some really good friends of me and Tessa knows him also.

I will not name him. It would be unfair. But let's talk about some person. So this person was invest um for, I don't know, one year or the last year or for the last two years. Over 50,000 US dollars in challenges for profounds. Activation fees, challenges. And he was blowing up, I don't care. It's like let's say minimum 50 times or 60 times. He was losing an immense of money.

So on the prop films, so on the trading uh simulation he was losing big amounts but he gained experience i know he gained experience and now he he after two years he's profitable And he have regular payouts. three thousand five thousand ten thousand now he got he now he got it nothing is wrong with But if you want doing this on your own private account, and I want to see your track record from the last five years.

And I would see that you're losing before maybe one million. And don't get me wrong, and now you're getting a payout from, I don't know, twenty thousand, thirty thousand US dollars. I will not take you seriously. Yeah. Because you dab like for I don't know. It's it's a big dab. So you're not break even. And this is something um what I don't like. Um but this doesn't mean that they not experience.

But for me, they don't qualify for um mentorship or buy or selling courses. So that's why I like, for example. Bella from SMB capital or um the other crews so from SMB capital. So they're dealing with real investor capital, with real money. They're doing this every single day. And they have strong rules, they cannot do this. So, and if they having a verified track record, yes, they have a verified track record.

And this is some this is a big difference if you're trading with real money on on real market condition, and that's really real money, or you're trading for a prop account. Where 90% of the time where you're trading with, it's simulation. It's not real money. It's you're trading a trade simulator. And you will tell me you was making money on a trading simulator?

But you have to go into the real market, put on real money, put on your your money and tell me that you making no money. Or maybe if you have not money, maybe some family like looking to my story. I was using family money. I go all in. So basically, I was not battling on some trading simulator. I was directly going in the market, no matter what. And that's putting real money in the market. And that's something what is completely different.

Well you know, wh why does it matter? I mean, as long as you're earning money, whether it's uh on your own account or in the prop firm account, um, i isn't it just I mean, it's just another different way of making money, right? I mean, if You have a chance to say trade with the prop firm money and you get to use their money. So you, hey, at least I'm not really risking much of my own money, uh, and I get this extra kind of leverage, so to speak.

Isn't that um kind of a positive thing and and wouldn't Wouldn't the prop firms actually want you to do well? And so if you fail, say the first challenge or something, they would have all this education and and help you out so that you can improve. Don't they want you to be successful? Oh, that's a good question. I think I think we have to make really difference between a real prop desk. A real prop desk for me is like SMB Capital, for example. There are also other ones.

or um educational films. So basically they are not real prop desk. They are only education uh companies. And if you will be asked them, hey, you are real protests, they will say, no, we are educational. So we helping you to grow experience to without risking your money. Go into the fine prints. You will see it. And the question what you're asking me is, let me request the question. If we have some problem on our heart, yeah.

So there's some doctor, he was never making any operation, he was only simulating. uh on robot us and everything like this for 10 years. And he's very successful with this. And then you have the other doctor who's maybe 10 years operation on real human. Who will trust more? The guy who was making this robots or on the uh humans? I think the answer is on the guy who making the operation on the humans, correct? So and it's the same with the It's exactly the same.

Uh-huh. Is that because there there's um the quality of putting your own money on the line? Does it make you learn faster or Is there because psychology, I imagine psychology is a huge part of this, right? So we have also to also to think about this. So people on the prop firms, if they blow so if they get funded, if they're getting the payouts, like say they're getting the payout from ten thousand US dollars.

How often do they get the 10,000 consistently? Did they get consistency the 10,000 month by month by month? No. Mostly not. With the same account number. Don't get me wrong. So basically, they get one payout. If they're lucky, they get the next. If they're really super good, they're getting the next payout. And then boom, they have a blower.

And they will lose the account and they will they will restart again, starting a challenge, going through the same process and again. So you will not do this on your real account. You will not do so risky approach. You can do risky approach if you be really experienced, if you have enough capital, if you have enough profits. So losing your losing the profits what you make and invest it. So but this is something I cannot take it serious.

They are really experienced, don't get me wrong, and they are really good traders. But it's make a huge difference to be a real trader or a prop from trader or an educational trader who came from the trading simulation. And there there was also some some interview what I was learning from uh from someone else. He was saying, Okay, if you if you're working on a real problem.

So you become maybe an really professional trader in two years, full if you're working full-time with us, because we're teaching you all what what you need. We're helping you, we have the education, we have the mentors around you, and you sitting up sitting right and left, there sits some experience trader around you. You're sitting on a real trading floor. That's completely different.

But if you're sitting home, you're getting maybe no education, you're getting a little community, and maybe there's some live stream where other traders talking about something. How you can be grow like some real proc trader in two years as professional, that's impossible. You need four or five years. But what the most guys doing say they have two payouts three payouts then they're using the certificate and selling course

And new traders falling into the trap, buying the courses, and they develop bad habits. That's stupid. We should protect the people for. Don't get me wrong. Really, don't get me wrong. Sometimes I'm I'm also guilty on my end. Sometimes. I'm not teaching really good. I can't teach this much better. I know it. But I but I'm thinking I make a really good job to simplify everything.

And that's something what I think is the key. Simplify trading for everyone. If you be a prop trader, all right. If you be coming from some educational firm and you're trading on sim account. Why not going into the communities and teach them how you become successful, what you're observing? and and looking for other people feedback and grow as a trader and enjoy it. And then maybe if you're having enough profits from the prop film.

Why you're not using your money and put this in a real money account and trade with the real money account for, I don't know, six months, one year? And then you can say, hey, I'm the best. I don't need any more. And people saying why I should get back from the Prop Firm. Why not? Because there's an you have a profit split. You give back 10% or 20% from your profits. Why you should do this? If you be and so good trader with so good payout

When you can fund your own account and you can trade without rules from other one, you can write all anytime and you have no profit share anymore. If you're making every month 100k, there's no reason anymore for that. That's my opinion.

Yeah. Um, in our first interview a couple of years ago, um, you described yourself as an intuitive style of trader. And I'm just curious, how have you been able to uh teach? the people that you've uh traders that you've interacted with, how do you teach them to trade? Is your style of trading difficult to teach? And have you has your style uh

been modified over the years as you've interacted with others. You know, cause some people are are scalpers, some are uh day traders, some are, you know, uh swing traders. How do you teach them? Okay, that that's a really good question. So most of the time my teaching is more like uh sharing my experience. So if people coming to me and by the way, I'm never taking any money from them. Um if I'm doing mentorship. I'm doing this for free.

Um that's that's something what I'm doing. Um the only thing what I what I'm asking for is for a donation. So basically if you say, okay, you want mentorship, I will say okay. uh I give you my time, but that I know that you take it seriously. I want that you donate, I don't know, 400 US dollars to some social project. Boom. And if you donate this, then we can make a deal. So I don't want this. I don't need it.

Um but I'm not doing this mentorship anymore. But this was something what I was doing in the past. Um but when I'm teaching them and my uh trading approach is is is not teachable for other people one hundred percent. But people coming Well why why is that? Well why why why is it not teaching? Oh, because because well I'm really instinctual. So if I see something, boom, I take it. Uhhuh. And um if people coming to me and say have struggle, then

We're talking about this. I let the people explain, okay, why you were going into the trade, what was going on, what you were seeing on your chart. And um what trading uh setup you like and all this stuff. I ask them many, many questions. And then I get a feeling about this, like like the same what feeling about the market. I get first a feeling about the person.

who trade because there's a big difference if someone is an engineer or someone is a sales guy because they have different mindsets. They're thinking on a different way. So that's something what I want figuring out first. So who's the person? Where they're coming from? What is their business? Because they have different mindsets, they think in completely in a different way. And then

Then teaching them what I see based on my experience. If I would do what I was doing and why this makes maybe sense based on my point of view with my experience. And then let's connect the dots together because I'm not a teacher. I'm not a coach. I'm not teaching you how to make the goods. I I guide you. That's the difference. I will guide you. I will make make maybe visible what you're not seeing.

And that's the big difference. I will not teach you how to trade. I want that that you let me know what you're doing at the moment, what is good, what is bad. And then with my experience, I will guide you. I will I will show you maybe something what you was not seeing or what could be possible, the missing puzzle.

For you that you can make in the next step as a trader. That's basically what I'm doing. This is what I'm understanding about mentorship. Don't teach them something. Help them, guide them with your experience. And that's it.

Uh-huh. Um, can you share with us uh some examples of uh the challenges that the traders, different types of traders have shared with you and how you guided them? Okay. Um let's talk about really simple um about two different people. So one people is they say, hey, I'm losing always in the morning. And it's so hard to bring back my loser, uh my losers over the day. Okay. So what was happened? Why are you losing all the all the morning? Let's talk about that.

So then maybe you have a nine to five job, you'll be stressed. So and uh I don't know, something must happen on your side. What was happened with you? Why are you taking the losses? What was trigger you? What was triggered you to go into the market?

So that's something what we have to find out first. What was triggering you to go into the market? Do you was seeing something on the shot? Do you have a trading plan? By the way, do you have a trading plan? Was this your A plus stand up? Was there something uh that was reasonable for you go to go into the market or was this, hey, I have to trade. Now I'm coming back from my job. I sit there after five minutes, boom, and I will pull the trigger because I want financial free.

So that's now how it works. So then we can then I can guide them and can say, hey. So first we have to Is the morning the right time frame for you? So let's talk about it. He's a European person. He has nine to five job after the job. He came to the market. It's American time. It's not European morning, different time. So and he comes back. Is this the right time frame for you to trade? Because you're telling me every morning you're taking losses. So why we not should uh change maybe

um the time frame for you. Why not after you came back from the job, going first into the gym, reading some book, taking some meditation, doing some other stuff, to calm down. And then with a clear mind, taking maybe 15 minutes, read the news, see what's going on on the chart. Uh wait a little bit, define some really good trading strategy, risk management, what you will follow, and define what you want to see on the chart before you're triggering something.

and then execute based on this. So that's some sometimes a really big mind shift for the people because they're never thinking about this, hey, it's the wrong timeframe. Or I was triggered because of my job. My boss was was stressed me out. My wife stressed me out. My kids stressed me out. I'm stressed because I have to make some money. Um, that's something uh where people where we're often dealing with. Find out first the triggers, find out is this the real time frame.

Third, do your trading really, your A plus setups, you follow your trading rules. For people, it's so hard to be disciplined and follow the rules. Why? Why? Why is that? Yeah. It's it's really hard. Why is this? So I think it's it's because they have a lack of discipline uh in a civil life. And how you can be having discipline in the market if you have no discipline um in in your uh daily life. So

And then now why some people taking drugs? Why some people taking alcohol? Why some people uh not uh wake up when Uh uh at at six a m and and they they already why some people not taking cold showers Because it's healthy. Why people not eating healthy foods? Why they're drinking Coke, cola, why they're drinking, I don't know, whatever. Why people eating sugar? People know everything why you should do this, why you should not do this. They say they don't care about this, they give a shit about.

And now you came with the mindset and the market. And now ask me why the people are not disappointed.

Well, um, so how often do you encounter traders who say learn a lesson in a particular uh market uh regime, like a particular type of market, and then um And then time goes by and then they forget that or they they ignore the lessons that they learned in the past. Like for example, during the COVID time when we had the huge drop and the VIX goes up.

and they learn all about volatility. Uh and then some years later the it things calm down. And um how frequent have you found where traders Forget the lessons I'd learn learned in the past or discount them and think, well, maybe this time it's different. Mm. Really good question. I think Everyone is guilty. Me also. Uh we can We can take lessons every single day from the market. And we find something where we exactly know oh, stupid, why I'm doing this.

So I s I give you some example from from my trading. So I was talking to to my people. Hey, I'm not taking any more and take profit. I have only the hard stop loss, but no more and take profit. Because why? When I have a take profit and I get a really good candle, news candles based on Donald Trump, based on terrorist news, the market can go crazy and we can go in crazy to the upside.

And I will not be the stupid one where having take profit there. And I'm getting out of the market and I miss the whole can Baltoza. That's completely stupid. And this is something where I have no more take profit. Because there's always opportunity every single day in the market that this could be happened. And why um be guilty? So la yesterday, stupid enough, I was making and take profit. Um, I don't know why I was making a take profit. And then we get in the news candle and boom.

I I I missed a big profit because my take profit was hitting the Thanks. Well it It sounded like then you made money on the trade, but not nearly as much as you could have because No, I give a shit up. Conservative nature. Only thing was why I wasn't following my my own rule. So I know it exactly. So what you were saying, hey, people maybe was learning the lessons truth COVID and they know it, but they're not following this anymore. And this is why I think people never request op.

Or they they should do it and asking every trading session what I was learning today, what was my biggest lesson for today? How I can become 1% better next day. Atomic habit. building habits that you can become a much better trader. And we should ask us this any single day. What was my biggest lesson? How I can improve for next day? What is my goal for tomorrow? What I want to see for myself tomorrow, how I should be performed.

And if I was make money, I I don't care about this anymore. But for me it's pissed me really off that I'm not following my rule. Because I know it exactly, but I I wasn't following. Uh-huh. So so is it um then a good idea then to have daily reminders and daily review of of our um strategy or discipline uh because it is so easy to uh forget or let it slide. Uh Personally, I think uh review every single day.

Uh take out the big lesson, write this down, and for everything rule what he was not following, take extreme ownership. Ask yourself, hey, why am I not following the So without bullshitting you, like be objective. Okay, because something like this was happened, something like this was happened, something like this was happened. Okay. And then how you can improve the next time that this will be not happened again.

All right, so my kids are noisy in the background. Okay, what I have to do the next time? Make sure that my kids having some fun and I can trade and they will not interrupt. So and then I make sure that this will be not happened again. So taking extreme ownership for everything what you're doing and trading. And there's the book, extreme ownership. I can give this as really advice, friendly advice. Reading the book, extreme ownership, reading the book, atomic habits.

And and do this every single day. And then you will grow automatically as a trader. If you follow this, what is in the book. You will grow as a trader automatically. And it saved you, I don't know, 5,000, 10,000 for mentorship sessions. Well, what about for the traders who who who say that uh, well, I was following my rule, but I discovered through the trading process um during the day that my rule is actually not very good and and and and I can learn on the fly.

uh and adjust it because I'm always looking to improve my rules. And and that's why I I didn't follow my old rules because they didn't look good at the time. And I'm creating a a new rule that's even better. Right. Perfect. You can now ask yourself, okay, why is this better? So not talking about always about the bad thing. Talking about the good stuff.

Hey, why I was doing this? What I was seeing, because this is sharpening your focus for the next time if you'll be good to know exactly why you were seeing something. And then if this happened again the next time, ah yeah, I know this was the last time. Now I I can maybe possible doing the same and I can change my strategy or something like this. Also ask yourself, okay, what I was seeing, what was triggering me, that I was changing now my trading strategy. And it was good, by the way.

and how I can use this experience what I was growing now for the next time. And then you can develop also some risk management strategy. Okay, if I see something like this in the future, and I know exactly that this, what I was learning today, should be now taking place. I will do it. So you have a new rule basically. So you can develop something completely new for you. You can grow as a trader. That's what I mean. Become every day 1% better as a trader.

But do you follow this? You you really doing this? Become one percent better? People talking to me, how can I become one percent better as a trader on my PL? On my money? No, on your experience, because there's every day some lessons in the market or the lessons on your trades. Find the lessons, looking and searching for the golden nuggets, write this down and prove about this. That's your experience where you grow. And if you don't build experience, how you can grow as a trader?

I will share this with you. There was one story what someone was telling to me. He was going into um let's give the cashier some little bullshit. Okay. A a woman he was uh twenty years and and she's a cashier for a big supermarket. And the guy was going into the supermarket and is going now in the supermarket every single day to buy something there for 20 years. And the woman is working also there, and she's now 40.

And she's not doing something else as doing the cashier job. Boom, tick, tick, tick, 20 US dollars, tick, tick, tick, 30 US dollars, tick, tick, tick. She is dying. Because she's never improved on his business career. She makes the same job all the day. She's dying. And this is something what we as traders should not doing. We should not die. We should be improved. We should not making the mistake like what the cashier is doing.

It's not about sorry, I I'm not bullshitting cash yet, but it's only an example. But they dying. And this is something what we as traders should not do. We should not die. So if we're doing every single day all this same stuff, we're dying. We need some new stuff to grow. We need some new lessons to grow. And we don't want be the lesson. What is the biggest lesson for traders? And they wake up and they say, oh, what the fuck is going on?

Ian, tell me. When they taking the big loss, they say, oh, what's going on? Why I'm taking the huge loss? And then they wake up. And they grow as a trader because now they're looking into the trades. What was happened? Why am I taking the loss? But why not why you're not doing this every single day? Asking you what was happened today? How I can take some lessons about this? How I can be become tomorrow better.

That's the single stuff. We should not die as traders. We should be becoming light for other traders to be uh teaching us our experience. Hey, that you can say to other traders. Hey, I was going through this uh volatility and I was learning something like this. And here are my notes. And then you can ask the other people, hey, what you was do you have the same experience? You was getting the same experience like me. And if yes, what you was learning, what you was observing.

And then you talk together and you think crazy, you have the same experience, you have a different view on this, I have a different view on this, and now we can can change our mind and we can grow again. That's when we're not dying, when we grow as a trader. And that's the part what people missing. Then we come back to the communities. But in the communities, there's sometimes so big shit that people posting only the PNL, the shards, the trade what they take.

But there's nothing interactive that's it, hey, I was taking this experience today. I will share this with you. That's my lessons for today. If have someone else the same experience, and if yes. what I was learning and maybe you would you will share this with me. Excuse the last interruption here. This is Tessa. We hope you're enjoying this episode so far. If you love the podcast,

Please give Chatwith Traders the best review you can on whatever platform you're listening from. This will help us to keep the episodes coming. Also, if you haven't subscribed to our email list, please hop on to chatwithraders.com and click on subscribe. So we can keep you posted of information that may be of importance. Thank you. Now back to the chat with our guests.

Would you be able to share a a story, an example of someone that you've mentored who became successful? Ja. Please do. From the Shatworth Traders community. We have really good traders in the Shatworth Traders community, but also Tessa Notes and you also, Ian. Many traders giving up. Why are they giving up? It's a time frame where because it's the wrong time at the moment. They don't give so much time. And then there are so other traders. It's only a handful of traders. And I have three traders.

who was going through all the stupid up and downs in the market and they are now Will you be successful? The one guy who I tell you who was investing the 30-50k in the uh profum board and taking now every single day some some payout. From the property He was someone who I was making accountability sessions with we starting and meeting us together in the chat with trading traders community.

We were meeting us every single Monday. We were speaking, okay, what you was learning. We were always talking about what you were learning this week, how you can become better, and how we can improve, and how I can become accountability for next week. What's your goal? We were talking about this every single week. And after the shared with traders community, we was always in contact. We was I was mentor him. I was giving him everything what I'm seeing. He was talking to me what he's seeing.

And this is one of the best examples. He goes through so hard times. I love him. It's so it's crazy. And now he's taking every single day some payouts. And there's also some other guys. Um he was giving me feedback today in the live trading room. He says, Hey, I have the last few weeks really bad days. And he was showing his bank account statement. And then he said, hey, now I'm having a few good weeks because of you guys. Because for us we teach them patience.

Don't get triggered from the market. Trade only when you see something. Is this your A plus setup? So we request them. So in the live trading session, of course, you can look over our shoulders how we trade. But I'm not the guy who is the clown who teaching you how I'm training. No, this is something what I don't want. You can go to YouTube, there are so many live trainings. I want more giving you guidance and say, hey.

I see this and let's talk about what you see. You get open mic and you can talk to me. And you say, hey, I've seen this. What do you think about it? Oh, nice. Okay, I see this. And then hey, remind the people, hey, be patient. You have not to go into the market if you don't see it. It's good. And if you're taking losses, take a walk to remind the people. Because people need this. They need a reminder. They need sugar and they need the pressure. That's that's what I like.

A couple of years ago, when I asked you about your future goals, what would you like to do? And you mentioned back then that uh you would love to become a big hedge fund manager and move to the US. Um uh and as the time has evolved, um tell us um how have your desires uh and plans uh changed over the last number of years. Okay, that that's pretty good. So by the way, I get my green card for America.

It's really great. I'm really honored about this. I was working so many years to get this. Now I get this. Um yeah, so that's basically um my open door for investor capital. Why I want the green cap, because um to have access to much more capital to get the next step into becoming a really good hedge fund.

Uh I need capital. But you you don't get this if you're not getting the US citizenship or you don't live in the US. So there's no trust and people from Europe or otherwise. So they they don't like And also there are some rules in America, so you have to follow the rules. And also you get more access to some licenses. Um basically from the SEC or something like this. You what you don't get if you're not an American citizen or you don't have to bring.

So that's the next step. But where I'm most proud of it, and this is what I was uh telling you when it was meeting us together, it's like um how the money is working for you, so the cash flow. That's something what's really we are really proud of. So I have not to work anymore because I have my cash flow. Money is working for me. And that's something what I think trade are missing. Um because let's talk about this uh a little bit. Uh maybe for two minutes or something like that.

So if you be an experienced trader, or maybe you be beneath it and you have a really good payout, let's say from the product that we were talking about, you get ten thousand, twenty thousand. Don't invest this in lifestyle. Don't do this. Don't do this. Don't buy new cars. Don't buy this in commerce. Let the money work for you. What I mean, maybe think about buying some flat. We have so many refugees all over the world. They need apartments.

And if you're an owner from an apartment and for example you're supporting some refugee, you don't get paid from the refugee, but you get paid from the government. That's secure money. So basically you get every single month money from the government because they're there is living some refuge.

Uh so cash flow, you let the money work for you. Buying an apartment, you rent this to the government, or you rent this to some other one. And maybe you're starting with one apartment, but at the end you get 100 apartment. And then you get every single month 1000 US dollars for each apartment. Boom, boom, boom. And it's guaranteed for maybe 10 years. Are you doing this yourself? Oh, okay. And and where are are you in where where is this located? Th these uh flats that I have some. Getting money.

Germany, um I have flats in Spain. So And also there's some other businesses. So if you have apartments, um some other businesses like also apartments, maybe they rent this only for a few hours. I will not go in deeper in this, but you can good make good money. So you're not involved in this business, but you can make good money. So you're giving there something. Or you're using this money to invest in some startup companies.

So maybe there's some tech company where you really like having a good trading idea. Invest the money there, give them, and then let the money work for you, and you get paid back. Of course there's sometimes risk. Everything is is is have some risk. Nothing is risk free in life. But this is something where you have also no more pressure to get in the market because you get paid every single month, like 10,000, 20,000, 30,000, 40,000, 50,000, 60,000. only from the cash flow what what you get.

And then you get this every single month without trading. And then you can say, okay, now I'm using the cash flow, what I was earned, and fund a next trading account. I'm trading now with the 60,000 what I earned today, because I don't I don't need it anymore. And then let's have fun. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

So um uh to wrap things up, um what are you anything that you're kind of looking forward to? Um are you still, are you still mentoring currently? Well, I'm I have in the mentor queue um community. We have um the pro community where we live trade every single day together with the people. I'm hosting this. That's at the moment what I'm doing. Mentorship. I will not do this anymore. um because one reason um

Yeah, as you know, I have two kids. So they become now more active. My son is now five years old, will be coming in summer six years. He needs more time for me. So and I were not missing the time uh to see my kids growing. Because I mentor some people. This is something what I don't want. Because my family first and then the other people. And also the big mentorship what I can give is my son. Well other people like professional soccer players, basketball players. Well I could be right.

So the daddy from Kobe Bright, what he was was doing with with his son, he was teaching him basketball because he was a former NBA player. And Kobe Bright becomes also NBA player.

and this is what i'm doing i'm teaching now my son how to make money in the market that's basically the mentorship one-to-one mentorship what i give at the moment it's to my son Um and this is why I was talking before I I get so pissed off because people don't make it so simple and explain it in a simple and easy way that other people understand this and we have a big chance for making the world better.

If we making the trading and lessons, what we learned and simplify this really, really on an easy way. That's amazing then so many people can can learn from this. And I'm 100% sure. As I said before, we have the opportunity, every single trader. To take out some people, young kids from the street, from all the shit what's going on on the hoods and bring them into the market. Fantastic, Patrick. Uh thank you very much for uh coming on uh Chat With Traders. Every time. Thank you.

How can our listeners uh read? Oh, okay. So I'm, as I said, you can find me on the Mentor Q. Go to MentalQ.com and there you will find me and yeah, check it out. Fantastic. Fantastic. Thanks for coming on the show. Thank you.

Hey, thanks for still sticking around. Here's my little chat with Patrick. Honestly, I really we, Ian and I, but especially I really miss you. I miss you and and Steve when you uh were in the live trading room and in the you were a driving force in the chat with traders community and I hope someday that we can ha you know, reopen that and have that back. Um, but it was so great because I learned even though like I trade so differently from you.

I, you know, I was re-watching some of the videos that you produced in the live trading room and I was like, oh my God, I learned so much from the mindset point of view. And it really made a difference in in my trading in the past year. The performance may not show it yet, but the um the things that go behind it, the discipline and all that, it takes time. It just really takes time.

I really think that trading is a game of discipline more than anything else. And that's where I'm at. And I would say that you're my first like unofficial mentor just by, you know, being in the community. So thank you. Yeah, thank you also. Yeah. So it was mean it was mean my world, yeah. So the chat with traders community. And now you're in another community making another great impact. That's my mom.

I followed you and so I followed you to where you are with mentor Q now. So I'm part of that community too. And I see the impact that you have there. So that's so awesome. And I also want to make a comment about you uh teaching your son uh to trade. And he's only five years old. That's just so amazing. What a gift. And I want you to promise me that we will be the first ones to interview your son.

It needs more than 10 years, I think. Yeah, so but but I teach I teach him also the mindset. So it's so important because now he came to school, I teach him, hey, you know, don't listen to your teachers. Bullshit. Because if you listen to me and you will become a really great trader, you can you can earn the school. You can pay the teachers, and with this mindset, he should go to the school. Hey, you know, my daddy tells me I can buy the school, I can pay you. So

It's so different. And and if we look into all the professional athletes, how they're teaching his kids, they they're teaching the same. They know exactly, hey, and on one point, I will be like my dad. I will become the next Leonard Messi. I will become the next Michael Jordan. And I know it. And that's something what I'm doing. You always give examples of like the, you know, the sports analogy with the pro athletes and it's like, wow, it is so true, you know.

Remember we have some Olympican uh weightlifter woman. Uh we was interview her in the Shatwith Traders community. And she was laughing because he said, what the hell? Why are you interviewing me? And then as she was saying, yeah, that's completely right, because at the end it's it's the same mindset. And she goes also through something where all traders going through. And I think you should not learn from traders about the mindset, you should learn from the athletes.

Because they teaching you a complete different view. And that's something what I'm doing. I do remember you talking about golfing as an example. Great yeah, a great sport. Um wow. And yes, so I we will really love to interview your son. He doesn't have to be all grown up. He it can be just in, you know, in a few years just for him to share a little bit from a little kid's point of view. It's just so awesome.

And then you also, you and Steve also inspired me to start trading futures. So that's what I'm Getting into I'm still doing options, don't get me wrong. I didn't, that's my main bread and butter, but I feel it's important to kind of like also uh find other markets to trade in. And so I'm dabbling into futures and I am using a prop firm for that.

It's good. So don't get me wrong, what I was talking in the interview, and that's nothing wrong. So the only thing what I mean is completely wrong is If you be getting your first payout or the second payout and you you you're trying to teach people how to trade, that's stupid. You should not do this. Because at the end you're not a break-even trader.

Yeah. I totally get what you were saying with Ian about um because you were talking more from an educator point of view. Those those that are um that you see a lot that have been educating, they use that um you know, uh, you know, that the payouts say they got a a few payouts and they're like, okay, now I'm a certified, you know, I'm I'm I can teach now. And that's what you're saying is the problem that

Yeah, go the next step. You use your payouts, fund fund your own capital and go in the market with your real account, get experience then, and then you will be able to Uh to teach something. And if you would be listening to Lance Breinstein, you would 100% agree with this. He is talking the same one I'm talking about.

Right, right. And plus you can't rely on the prop firms forever because who knows they could be gone. I mean, how long is that gonna last? We don't know, right? You can't rely on that as your your forever business. Yeah. And so I just want to say thank you. I'm so happy to see you. Miss you, miss um the members um in our community at the time, miss you and Steve. Um yeah, so it's great to. to have you back on the show.

Yeah, and and I hope everyone could um take out some golden nuggets from what I was talking about and uh maybe reflect on this. Uh maybe you m you you would not be angry with with most of the part, but maybe it gives you something where you can think about.

You always have a different way of saying things and that's why I think it's gonna be so interesting. You always have a different way of expressing your your views and it's always so interesting, Patrick. So Yeah, because I I want the only thing what I want is um people can hate me, people can love me, I give a shit about this, but if I if I be the person That you get so hard pissed off, then I know exactly something in your mind for being Yeah. And then I know, I know I got you.

And now maybe I save you for some bullshit in the future. Or you rethink because you get so pissed, you rethink uh on the way to the work or if you're going to sleep, you think about man, this is why he's talking about this. That's pissed me off. But you think about what I'm talking to you of. And then I'll be in your mind. And that's something what I want.

I give a shit about if you like this or not, but if I be on your mind and maybe I can change maybe some little tiny millipercents on your thinking about trading, then I'm taking a really nice job. Agreed, agreed. Um Oh, by the way, the title, are you okay with with us titling it something if you don't like it, that's okay,'cause I heard you say it. Quote, you said We should not die as traitors. Perfect. Breathe the market in and out and we should not die as a trader.

Yeah,'cause w when you said that, I was like, Oh my god, bingo, that's our title. Yeah, at the end I was shocked. Yeah. It's like I love it. Yep, but but but it's really like this. So go go into the cashias, go into the room and you will see the same cashier in five years. They will not grow as people, they're dying. Yeah. That's we could have another topic on this, but some people are are okay with that. But yeah, but that's nature. If you're not growing uh Are you dying?

Yeah, so so maybe maybe the the woman on on the cashier desk is now sixty. uh in in in in any years, but uh I would tell she's maybe only twenty-one because after twenty-one she was not growing, she's dying. I may be only thirty and not forty-two because ten years I was dying. Um Patrick help me not to die as a traitor. Ha ha ha. Oh man, that's crazy. Yeah. So yeah, I think we will I think people will listen to this and and

I love that title. Well, thank you for approving that. Um well have a great night and we'll be in touch. See you soon. Bye bye. Okay. You've reached the end of this episode of Chat with Traders, but rest assured there are more episodes. It in safe. And zero to the podcast.