260: Patrick Petersson - Breathing In, Breathing Out Intuitive Hits on the Markets

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After five years that I be become professional, I get the feeling of from the market. So I I breathe the market in and I breathe the market out. So I get I I must I must see before before I take an and trade, I must see the shot maybe five minutes, ten minutes. uh not not the static chart so i must see the market how the market will react how the stock will react i i must i must become the feeling i must be one-to-one with the stock market i must be 100 focused with the stock market

We're in episode 260, and I am Tessa, co-host of Chat with Traders. We were in search of our next guest to interview and lo and behold, he was right here in our Chaplet Traders community all this time. His name is Patrick Peterson. Patrick is a talented seasoned trader of 16 plus years.

Well, Patrick, welcome to uh Chat with Traders. Yeah, Patrick. Uh give us a little bit about your background, early background. Where did you grow up and uh where do you live now?

I live in Germany. Timmendorfer Strand. Um, it's on the Baltic Sea. I live there with my family, with my wife and my two kids. So I have an uh boy who is three years, I have a daughter who is one year, and Yeah. My trading background is I'm trading more than sixteen years as a professional day trader. I live since sixteen years only from day trading. So this means

Uh-huh. Uh so when you were uh a teenager in high school, uh did you have an idea on kind of what you wanted to do with your life? Um what were your goals early on in high school?

Oh yeah, my my goal my goal was only working for a bank. 감사합니다.

Yeah.

So I was only reading uh newspapers uh with financial background. So in Germany it's called um Handelsblatt. It's the I I will compare this to Wall Street Journal. So when when the teacher makes some lessons in the background, I was reading the newspaper. I don't I don't listen to the teacher what they do in the classroom. I was only reading the newspapers. Um because the the teacher know that I am

So this was in uh this was in high school or in university?

Uh I was not in the university, it was in the high school. Um I was um I think the last two years in the in the high school, um, I was only reading newspapers. So don't listen too much to Um yeah, to my teachers because I was thinking I will have more money than they have in a few years and why I should listen to them.

So was your goal to be a a a banker of of sorts or a particular job in the banking sector?

No, my only goal was I will be at the banker CEO.

Oh wow.

Because in the in the German uh Hundreds Blatt table was so many interviews from from the Deutsche Bank, CEO, uh And some financial guys who are always CEOs. And I was thinking this will be my my position in a few years.

Uh-huh. And uh so how old were you when you um finished your educational background?

Oh, I was eighteen.

18. Uh-huh. And then what did you do after graduation? Did you Push you to get a job or or or

No, no, I don't get the job. My mother kills me.

Oh.

So I get some some money from my mother to um uh to get to to can buy some cars and get some license to drive the cars. But I take the money uh into my bank bank account and was was trading with the money.

And did she know that? Uh how long was it before um she found out that uh you were trading with the money?

I think it was only three months because she asked me how it's going uh with my driver license and uh I was saying okay I don't go to to this driver license school. I will only trading uh but I will g uh I will give you back the money. So I was able to give here give her all the money back. So it was fine. So I take enough profit.

Ah. And and so when you gave the money back eventually, uh, did that um provide a a level of trust so that did she ever provide any future money? Um

No, no.

Oh.

So um yeah, it's it's a it's it's a hardest background for me. So because my Um my family, all my family members, um, counsel all Um yeah, I don't know the the right words in but they cancel all all the c all the contacts to me. So I have no contact after maybe twenty years to my mother. Um Yeah, because um she's thinking that trading is only gamble. So and she never understanding that I don't want to go to work because she she works so hard.

Oh really? Uh yeah, even even though um they got their money back, I mean there wasn't they didn't lose money.

Yeah, th they they see it as a casino. So maybe you you are lucky, maybe you you will lose. And they will say, Yeah, in this moment you was lucky, but in other moments you you are not lucky.

Uh-huh. What uh what about general German cultural attitudes toward, say, getting rich through uh through the stock market? Um it what is a German's attitude typically for um trading in general?

In in this in this case or about twenty years ago. Uh it was it it was completely different. It was not not normal to to to trade stocks or day trade stocks. Um, it was only to have some insurance where you can buy stocks and and you can grow over years, over years and take some little profit from them.

I see. Uh did you have any friends or or uh anybody you knew that were in the financial markets that you could share with? I mean, what You originally you said you wanted to go into the banking sector and uh banks are commonly uh perceived as being, you know, very conservative type people. And yet you wanted to jump into day trading. Um Uh did you have any mentors or anybody to inspire you to get into this?

Um yeah, I get mentors uh later, but in the in my early stage. Um I get no friends about this. So uh in this case, the chat with traders community was not there.

Yeah.

So uh many day trading communities was not there. Uh YouTube uh was not there. Um, so you have to learn this on your own way. Um so it was 20 years back. So the education was not there. So I was learning this on the hard way, on my way. Sure, I I go into the banks and and as long you have enough money, the banks are your best friends. If you lose money, they hate

Yeah.

And this case sometimes the bank was my best friend, sometimes uh that was my eminence. I think three years later I get two great mentors. One of them w was Oliver Welles. I was learned so many things from him. And yeah, this was the yeah, this was the push for me. So this was the eye opener. So when I was on the first contract with with an professional manager.

I see. And so uh you were what, eighteen when you opened your first account?

I was uh exactly when I when I get my birthday, 18, because you can only open your your your free account without uh parents when you're eighteen in Germany in this time. Mm-hmm. Uh and then on my birthday I go to the bank and say, okay, now I want um Making trading account. So but the fees was really high and about the fees I think I was not so successful like today. Because the feast was a little bit more than a little bit.

Oh yeah, give it give us a an example of uh of the fees like how much

For for for an order, uh if you place some order you your your fees are ten US dollars or fifteen US dollars or twenty US dollars. So it's it's it's really big. It was a really big one. So when you make maybe profit 100 US dollars and this was good for you, then I think thirty US dollars you pay fee. And today when you trade stocks. you'll pay one one west dollar

Uh-huh.

It's a big difference to know.

Yeah, definitely. So did did you study uh trading uh you know before before jumping in or did you just Jumping and learn on the fly and what what were some of your early

uh my only my only studying was um from the newspapers so i was uh i was reading every day the newspapers i was uh reading every day um the newspaper charts uh from the stocks i was compare this and and all the shots and I was learning this from my way.

Thank you.

In this case, um I'm learning from from the newspapers how the stock market reacts. I make my I make my notice. I write write something down, other people make some notice and learn uh for the school. I make my notice and s and was thinking about okay, how is this dog react and why is the stock react on this news was something the newspapers or Was there some political issue? Was there some economic issue? So this was my my view.

Oh. Yeah. Uh so early on you were um looking at fundamentals. Is that accurate?

Yeah, correctly. Correctly, correctly. And also, um, and all all the news. So what what's on in the news? So for me it's important Um, what's going on with the employees from the Lufthansa? Will they counsel some some employees? Is there some layoffs? Um what make make other airlines maybe uh you United airlines uh to compare from Lufthansa or something like this.

Mm-hmm. Uh so what were some of your so your early strategies were they more of a kind of like a swing trader? Were you buying stocks and holding them for a period of weeks or months?

No, I was holding this maximum for a week because I was seeing that Uh well when I when I study the news that um mostly they will come come down after one week or they they get some retracement and all this all this stuff. And this was why I was thinking, okay, um, I must buy and sell this uh in minimum from one week.

So when you um you used the initial money that you got from your uh from your mother, right, to to trade and then eventually you paid her back. And yeah, so like uh Roughly how how much money were you working with really early on? Uh, and did they have rules like the uh pattern day trader uh rules?

Well it was it was twenty thousand US dollars. Mm-hmm. I was thinking twenty thousand US was because it was for the driver license and for my first car. And this was my first first connection with with the United States stock market. So I was um the the bank manager was told me, hey, if you want make fast money and uh And you want grow faster, you have to go to the U United States Dockman.

Oh, I see. So did you uh trade the German or European markets for very long or did you just

Yeah, two years. I was I was trading two years the the German market and also the the US stock market and then I was quite completely the German stock market because I was thinking We have not the big moves and we have not the great stocks uh like the like the United States because I was loving so much the penny stocks in this moment. So you can

Mm.

100% moves, uh 50% moves, 25% moves. In the German stock market, if you are lucky, you make and 2%.

Mm-hmm. Uh so jumping into penny stocks, I imagine then you did you focus mostly, if not entirely, on technical indicators?

No, I don't use technical indicators. So only one what Oliver Welles was teaching me was the uh SMAs, uh 220 and 8. And yeah. And also learning um the the pattern. So maybe I will I will watching with my eyes um the shards. I don't use any technical indicators or or make it difficult. So for me it was um was from the beginning and make it make it easy as as possible. So only in this case um you see something. So don't trust the technical indicator.

Interesting. Uh w did you use technical indicators at some point and have a bad experience with them? Or did you just uh from the beginning pretty much wanted to keep things very simple and decided?

From the beginning I was I was making Something really simple because as I imag as I was told before, so I was only reading the newspapers. I was getting my information from this. And in the newspapers I have no technical indicators. So for me it was in the beginning that that it's more easier for me to don't use technical indicators because when I use technical indicators

I see. So what do you look for uh in how the candle is shaping up? Uh and what do you use? Like a one minute, five minute hour charge or

So typically I use one minute, but when I'm on the trade I I will use uh the thirty second. Um because I won't see it much faster. But typically I I use the one minute time frame when I trade the 30 seconds. And for a big overview, um typically I use the one hour shot or 15 minutes.

I see. And what are you looking for in the chart? What kind of action? What what does it look to you just as you enter a short position or a long position?

Yeah, I'm go I go uh both sides, so long and short, but my mind is more More training and short positions, but

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Uhhuh. So uh do you consider yourself a discretionary trader?

Yes.

I see. And uh d you don't look at volume? Oh wow. Wow. Um So you're looking at the activity. So imagine can you uh describe to us? say on a something that you want to go long or go short, what what does the bars look like? What what does the pattern look like? Uh that's the most optimum setup for you.

How the the best setup is when the cannot get nervous. Uh when you see that the candle goes goes a little bit nervous, it goes a little bit h uh High and up, high and up, high and up, high and up, and then they explode. Boom. So if you see the candle goes a little bit nervous, this is a good sign for.

Mm-hmm. And a nervous candle would look how would that look like exactly?

How it will look like this exactly? Okay, so I give you an example. So I was trading in the chat with traders community, the earnings. Um after the market is closed. Um

Um, would you would you classify yourself as um like an intuitive trader? Using your intuition and and how you feel.

One hundred percent, one hundred percent, one hundred percent. I know many people say uh don't trust your don't don't trust uh your feelings and all this stuff but for myself sometimes I cannot describe my my my trading techniques. Uh if if if you ask me something or other people ask me something

I see. It and um how were you able to cultivate uh these feelings over time? Or did it just come kind of natural to you?

Yeah, for me it's it's more natural, so it's As I told you, I'm I'm more than 16 years as a professional day trader. I live only from from the day trading. But I was thinking. After five years that I be become professional i get the feeling from the market so i i breathe the market in and i breathe the market out so i get i i must i must see before before i take in and trade i must see the shot maybe five minutes ten minutes

I see. And so uh how important is the news? uh combined with you looking at the charts in in getting that feeling. Or can you look at a chart with not knowing anything about what you're looking at? No no news whatsoever. Can you still trade? Uh something where there's no news?

Oh good question, good question. Um I would say no. Um, because I'm I va nah, it's it's a it's a hard question. Normally I would say Uh you don't need the news because when the news are out, um the move is done. But Um, when I have not the news on my side, so for example, I news news cruck, I have the the audio, and when I have this not on my side, I get I get a little bit nervous because I have no idea what what's going on in the market.

Wow. And so you shorted the market. Uh

Yes. And this was in time. So if you have some news like this and you have this in time. So then you have then you know what what to do. You all I think all people will remember what what was ha uh happened on the um with the World Trade Centers when the news came out the stock market goes crazy. And I was thinking when when I heard the ne uh an explosion near the Pentagon, I was thinking, oh my God, not again. And then I was thinking my next thing was go short, go short, go short, go short.

Wow.

Köszönjük! Köszönjük! And then uh and then it was uh the the news came out. Oh it's fake news, it's delayed on Twitter and the stock market was uh was coming back. But it was a good good good time frame. And this is a really good example. Why it's so important uh to have some news in the background?

I see. So you combine the news with what the price action of what you see i in the stock and uh and then is so is your motto that you um you let the market uh decide uh whether it's positive news or negative news, even though you do you have opinions on where the the stock should go, but then let the uh the chart tell you uh of the consensus of where the stock will go.

Okay, yeah, this is another good question. So Um mostly I will I will let the market tell me what what I have to do because the market is always right. You as a trader can be always wrong. The market is the only one who's always right. Uh so you can follow the market.

Mm-hmm. And uh how long were you in that trade? Two minutes. Wow, that's short. Uh and how often do you uh hold on to positions uh overnight or a period of days or weeks?

I have no overnight position because the risk is uh at the moment to to whiskey. So I close my my aver my average holding time is mostly five minutes. Yeah. So because I'm I'm the one who go fast and fast out. Um maybe you can say it's scalping, but I don't want to say it's scalping. It's more like Follow the move and if the move is done, go out of your position.

Mm-hmm. Um, so going back to uh fifteen, twenty years ago when you first got started, uh, what was your early risk management? And uh did you blow up any accounts early on?

Yeah, I blow up more than fifty accounts. More than fifty accounts.

Wow!

Yeah, so risk management I never thinking about this. So I I don't know about maybe I don't know about risk management, but I was not thinking about risk management. And this is really interesting. So I learn it on the hard way. I learn it on the hard way to to how it feels like to lose your account, how to feel like uh to have no money to trade, how it feels like to sit uh in

Yeah.

Um Yeah, I I blew up fifty accounts but I was more than a I from from my nature is isn't sales guy. So I'm a business guy. I'm a sales guy. I'll I have learned many things from maybe uh Gwen Cardone, Anthony Robbins and all this stuff. So I

Thank you.

And every time when I blow up an account I found wealthy people, I go to the wealthy people And say, hey, I'm I'm a stock trader. I I know you have the money and I know you want more money. And I know the money give you not so much money, but I have an idea. Let me pitch this to you. I I know I I blew up my account, but my setup maybe it's it's correct and I have learned and this is my lessons what I have learned. Can we can we do something together? And this will work every time.

Wow.

Uh and then I get funded from from wealthy people. It was not so much money, maybe twenty thousand US dollars again. But uh they want the money back. So um In this case when they give me the money. I play natural tape. So I I don't play play games when when other people give me money to trade.

Oh wow. So uh when you blew up an account, did you did you have to go to to new wealthy people each time that you blew up an account? Yeah. Oh you did. And so how did you find uh these wealthy people? Um

Oh. Um at the uh first I was met my my first wealth of people, uh I get the connection from the from the bank manager. Uh I was saying, Hey man, I cannot trade um have you any idea how I can get some credit or I can have some money from from you from the bank that I can trade again because It's real pain for me to don't trade. And they say no, we don't we we don't want it but

Oh wow. So uh then uh the guy at the bank and uh these wealthy people, they must have had incredible faith in you, uh, or you must have been very persuasive to uh Did you share uh w what mistakes you made and and how you're gonna change?

No four. Only the first time when I met them, he asked me why you need money when you're successful. I was told me, yeah man, fuck, I I blew up my account, I have no money, but uh I I'm really really passionate about this and he speak about me I I think three hours we want we we was eating together something and and he got trusted.

Wow. So these wealthy people didn't know that you blew up all these accounts, right? No. And

They don't know that I blow up my my private accounts again and again. They think about this, I'm in holidays for two or three months, so that I go to maybe to Mallorca and live my Dolce Vita and all this good stuff.

I see. So you were blowing up your own personal accounts, but uh their accounts that you were trading with their money, you were more conservative.

Yeah, because uh I have to report every day to him.

Uh every day.

Every day. Yeah, this was something what I want. I was I was told him so I will report to you every day. because I know the issue from the banks that you get m maybe quarterly reports or the the connection with uh with the traders not there or something like this. And this was w was some bullet point for me that I can I can have more trust uh and more friendship to the wealthy people that they trust

Wow. So that must have surprised some of these uh wealthy people who are used to getting

Absolutely. So at the end, they they asked me how much money I want. So not I have to ask about maybe fifty thousand, one hundred thousand, they ask me how much money you want. We can found other people who invest in you too. And then we may be 20 people. And then it it comes the idea. um that I trade uh that I trade uh an hedge fund. So I was I was thinking about okay when we have so many investors, uh what what can I do that I can trade for these people?

Wow. Um, so what were the typical returns, percentage returns that these wealthy people were expecting uh that they were typically used to? And then what kind of percentage returns uh were you able to deliver them? Thank you.

É difícil dizer. Some people say, Okay, if you have five percent each month, then then you then you will be fine. And or if you have ten percent, then you are fine. But if you deliver more and more profit and more and more money.

the investors come a little bit junky so they want more so if if they know that you are have the power or the ability to make more money or it was a good month or it was a good week, then they want more. Then they are then then they get un unhappy um when you perform a little bit Yeah better than the last.

Interesting. Um, well, I imagine most of these investors were used to getting or accepting somewhere between 10 and 20% per year, right? Which is considered a reasonable return. So are you you're are you saying that you were getting five percent per month sometimes? Per week.

Yeah, and this is this is easy because uh okay. My trading style is I go always all in all the money what I have, I use I use always my full financial power. Always. I don't

I don't want go in with maybe if you have one hundred K and you go only in in a trade with with With with 10k, this makes no sense for me because when I have 100k, I go all in I use the full financial power.

Interesting. Um, you go all in on a basket of many stocks or or just a few?

One stock, one stock.

One star.

I cannot uh this is something what I can what I can't. Uh it's I get completely nervous. When I watch more than than one stock. So when I have to watch two stocks at the same time, I get completely nervous. I can focus only on one stock or on one uh e indies or something like this. I can only w w watch one t one in a in a one time.

I see. And how often um do you see setups that um give you the confidence to go all in? How frequently do you find uh those opportunities?

Uh the really good opportunities you will find three three times each day, maybe.

W that wow, that frequently.

Yeah, and and that's the hard part. So I know most people have some problems with overtrade. But uh if you go all in and you know about the risk, what I what I do, then you don't do normally stupid trades because you know when when this trade goes completely wrong, you're fucked up completely. And then you have report at the end of the day to your investor. So I have all uh I have reports. Some stupid trades to my investors also, but Um they are fine. If the setup was good.

Uh-huh. Um, so was it challenging managing the expectations uh of your investor?

Absolutely. I get I get so many times frustrated. Because this was the first time that people say something to me and I have to to do what they they told me.

Oh

Yeah, it was completely a new world for me uh to think, okay, accept uh something what what the people say because It challenged me also uh to work with other people. Um and and at the end I follow only some advices from ma from from one or two people. And the two people or the two investors was the leaders for the other investors at the end, because it was too too noisy when I speak to one of them, he told me A, the other one told me B and the other one told me C.

I see. Well what what did they want you to do exactly? I mean, if you're delivering five percent uh uh in in a very short period of time, I mean, heck, if you can deliver fifteen or twenty percent in a year, they should be happy, right?

Yeah, so th I have one good guy in this group and he told me Uh you must think always on on this. If you m if you bring us in in one day two thousand US dollars or three thousand US dollars profit. And you do this two times or three times again and again, you must think about this that we want this from you always.

Interesting. Um, so did you ever consider going to a quarterly report so that uh you could smooth out the ups and downs. And uh because if you're showing uh incredible gains, uh then it's like a drug for them, right?

Yeah, yeah, and and as I told you, I'm a sales guy. I play with this feeling too.

Mm.

So for me it's good that I have the feeling so that I have uh I have the money feeling with the people because uh at the end. They will do what I want. Because I'm the money maker, I'm the source of the money for him. So, as I said, for me, it was, at the end, it was also a good game for me. So if I need more or if I need something from them, it was no decision that I get I get this. I get this.

Excuse the last interruption here. This is Tessa. We hope you're enjoying this episode so far. If you love the podcast, Please give Chatwith Traders the best review you can on whatever platform you're listening from. This will help us to keep the episodes coming. Also, if you haven't subscribed to our email list, please hop on to chatwithraders.com and click on subscribe. so we can keep you posted of information that may be of importance. Thank you. Now back to the chat with our guests.

I I see. I'd like to go back to um you know, when you blew up your accounts, uh, did you did you change your strategy uh or, you know, did what kind of risk management did you implement back then and also later uh when you're trading with a lot of investor money?

The big thing, what I was changed is cut the cut the loose is fast. So in my in my personal account, I was always thinking, uh

lost some money, let it run. Maybe it c it could it come be back or not. So um the biggest mistake was that I don't Uh accept the losses, I let it run and not cut it very fast. So this was my hard learning. And I was saying, so I was also uh three months. Uh without any any place to live. So I I live three months and

Wow. Uh and so uh it sounds like your family disowned you for trading. Is that I mean'cause you said you were ho homeless. What

Yeah, they don't accept me. So um they don't accept me now, they uh they don't accept me in the past, they don't accept me in the future. Because for for my family I have to be an an and worker who goes to work and make a regular income.

Interesting but Yeah, I mean you were you were uh I imagine you're quite different from the typical German in that uh A you're able to start trading right out of school. Uh you're 18 and uh and even though you've you've had many successes. Uh still uh you're not accepting.

No, no, I accept it, no. Wow. Because they they they they was thinking okay, so now you are on the lucky side, but it will the the time will come that you're not on the lucky side. so that you get bad days. And this was one of the bad days when I was homeless for moms. And and I get no support. So I was I was going to my mother, I was saying hey I have nothing. So they say no it's it was your decision. Oh wow.

Wow. Uh do you consider yourself or do others consider you to be somewhat of a cultural rebel?

I don't yeah. Cool to rebel. Um yeah, one hundred percent. I well more than one hundred percent. So I was saying I'm not I'm not the average people, so uh I cannot go to regular work. So So and I have some some quite some problems with people uh When when but I give you some example. So it's it's not to have a problem. So um when you go to to to some shop and I see the cache here on on the cache desk. I see always.

Interesting. But do you think that you were the way you trade? being very feeling based, intuitive based, do you believe that's teachable to uh to most people? Ha ha ha.

No. No, I don't think so. It's Yeah. Yeah, we ha we have in the community one guy. Uh I don't give the name because uh I think it's more private. Um I trade with them one to one and I see how how good or how A good impact is when I trade together with him and how I can teach him and uh and how I can push him. And they say to me, Yeah, I'm uh

Uh so I was informed uh that when you trade in our uh Chat with Traders community that you used um what was called an imbalance to help you make decisions on when to enter. Can you describe what an imbalance is. What what does it look like?

Yeah, you see the difference from sell and buy in easy words. So if you have more sellers or if you have more buyers. So and when you have the imbalance and you see something like this and you see more buyers than sellers, this is a good good good signal for you. You can go You can use it.

I see. Is this uh are you looking at level two uh bid ask uh uh sizes or uh how are you looking at the exact uh imbalance?

Something like this, yeah. Mm-hmm. Or you can have uh other tools where you can collect the imbalances. It's not always the level two. You have some other tools. So you have uh institutional tools where you can look at this. And yeah, you can you can use this too, but

I I changed it. Maybe every week my my my strategies. So what was working for last week, I don't use it anymore. So if if you see me uh trading with the imbalance for maybe one month, I don't do it at the moment. I do something other.

Oh just

I'm I'm completely I'm completely change every day something. So be before I go to bed I was thinking about about the trading. So because I was told you I I breathe trading in, I breathe trading out, I think 24 hours about trading. So uh and And I change every day something on my trading stuff. Oh really? If it's only one if is this only one small thing, I would change it. So this was working uh for one week, well, but maybe not working again. So I change every day something.

So uh do you change uh something every day because Um it doesn't work from day to day or week to week and that you always have to find like a new edge to get the profit.

Yeah, sometimes it's the market uh sometimes it's the market. The market is Is it's not the not the not Not the same every day. So the market is Yeah, the market is changed every day, so no day is the same day. And and this is this is how I react also. So um what I what what will what I use yesterday will not will not work uh tomorrow. So because the the market have changed. Someone called this maybe you have uh special playbooks, how you play play some stocks. For me, this is like

Wow. Well you you uh eat, sleep and drink trade.

Absolutely. I have in my mind um the shots.

Yeah.

And when I wake up, so for example if you wake up in the night Then I then I wake up and and I have I I think on on trading because I I think when I slip I d I I think on trading too. I don't know why.

Uh-huh. Uh do you think do you think that you're addicted to trading?

100%.

Uh-huh.

Wow. I would I would say I would say um Some people are br are natural brown to trader, but they have to work really hard on this and and this was what I have to. So Maybe you can explain you you can you can see this like an NBA professional player. They have all the talent and maybe they are completely natural burn to become a basketball player.

Yeah.

And And now here I am where I am. So now I can say I'm I'm a professional athlete, like maybe an NBA player.

Wow. Yeah, it's like a sports game for you. Yeah. Um my understanding is you um find it difficult or Just simply don't accept lo losses that you hate losses. Yeah.

I hate completely losses, yeah. So my average win rate is uh eighty to ninety percent. Um because I I cut when I'm have the change to go break even, I go to break even. So I don't want That is to become a losing train. Um, maybe this is not correct, maybe it's correct, but I do this only because of my experience that I was homeless three months.

I see. Uh so hating these losses or having it being difficult to accept losses, do you find or has that led to you doing revenge trading?

One hundred percent. Yes.

Mm-hmm. Wow. So what about um do you set your stop losses or do you just manually trade?

No, uh I place stop losses um very okay, when I when I trade um when I place my orders, my my stop loss is is extremely wide because I don't want trade with stop losses. I I use the stop losses only to to place it manually on break-even if I have the change to do this. So it's not predefined my stop losses or or I don't trail it or something like this. So I I work with my stop loss manually. So I put my my mouse and I put the stop loss break-even and and that's it.

So curious to get your take on how does a current market um for you in twenty twenty three, this kind of choppy sideways market compare with prior years, say like 2020, does it matter much? I mean, since you're just simply day trading, uh, do you pay, is there mat that much of a difference between the types of markets that we're in and how it affects your uh your trading?

Yeah, one hundred yeah, one hundred percent so. I can give you some I can explain it in an easy word. I if I think I have seen everything in the stock market, I'm completely wrong. So the market teaches me every day that I'm wrong. So So today I was thinking with I I have seen everything and then the fake news came out. I was never thinking about that and fake news have some impact on the stock market, but it I was teaching and completely other thing. So

Yeah.

So every time, uh every day the stock market gives you some great lesson. And If you s if you think you have seen everything, you get the you get punched in your face.

Yeah.

And I feel so so happy for all the people who trade who start the trading career now in the bear market. So it's the hardest way to learn trading in the Burma. So every people who who start the trading career now, they are extremely lucky. Because in the bull market you can make so easy money. In the bear market, it's extremely hard to make. This is this is my feeling. So if you if you was in the and the bull market it was too easy to make money because you have to place your order and

Right. So what do you struggle with most in trading?

Focus is the most focus is the most one who I struggle with that I that I lose my focus. So you must understand that I have two kids. So um I I don't trade in in any Byrals, so I trade in my home place together with my family, with my kids. So Maybe so so the kid comes in the room and then you look to their kid or you have some crying in the background, you look past for what's going on, and then boom. And it's something like happened in the stock market and you don't see it.

Mm-hmm. Uh how has trading impacted uh your time available for your family and your health?

This is a good question. I think it's better to ask my wife. Um yeah, I think It's it's good. No, it's good. So we have we have we have made so decisions as families. So they have accept that our incomes come from trading, that we live from trading, and they are completely fine with this. And the good one is I live in the uh German time zone, so it's means for me that I start my trading um uh in the afternoon.

Mm-hmm. Uh so even though you're day trading and you're not carrying positions overnight, so you don't have to worry about your uh positions blowing up overnight, you still find it difficult to sleep?

Yes, because um I have to review every So you must under yeah you must understand that this is my free time. So from uh I give you some shitul in the morning when I wake up Um, I have quality time with my kids uh at to the lunchtime. And after the lunchtime, trading will begin. So this is my working hour. When trading is done, then it becomes my free time.

Yeah. I I imagine your family is looking forward to holidays, right? To uh to get you to be able to relax and and uh recharge and

Yeah, but I get depressed on a weekend. So as I mentioned, I think twenty-four hours on trading and Um Saturday is a good for me. It's it's good one, but on Sunday I get completely depressed because I won't trade. And I cannot trade because the market is closed.

Oh. But but isn't that uh I mean, so sounds like you are just itching to trade and then not being able to trade on Sunday. That's kind of a downer for you.

Yeah, I get completely depressed. Because on the weekend you have some some good new ideas in your mind and you won't place the orders with with all your new ideas and all what you think about on the weekend. Um yeah, I know it's it's quality time with my family, but uh yeah, uh I'm physical with my family and all this stuff, but mentally. Most of the time I think on trading So it's hard for me to s to switch. So I'm I'm here with my with my family and I spent the time with my family, but

Mm-hmm. Uh do you have any goals going forward?

Yeah. Goals are every time g uh good. Um yeah, I have big goals. Um the biggest goal is that I become um the biggest hedge fund manager of the world.

Yeah.

So this is this is my main goal. Um yeah. So or I have the ability to become uh to work with uh JP Morgan um so become some in the trading desk so something like this. So that's my that's that's a good goal for me, for main goal for me. But um The the biggest goal for me is

Okay, great. Uh is there any are there any words of wisdom you would like to share with fellow traders?

Any words of wisdom.

Yeah, advice or Yeah.

Um yeah, the only advice what I can give is um Don't listen to other people. Uh follow your your your inner voice. So your inner voice is is always right. So you can say this is for for if you if you have a mentor and you have so others you you sing completely different like then follow your inner voice so maybe your your family is not

Great. Thanks for sharing. Um, thanks for coming on the show, uh, Chat with Traders, Patrick. Yeah. How can our listeners get in touch with you?

I'm in the Shed with Traders community, Avi Dime, and also the community mentor from Shatwith Traders. So the best place to find me is inside of the Shatwith Traders community.

Great. Thank you, Patrick, for coming on the show. You've reached the end of this episode of Chat with Traders, but rest assured there are more episodes.