210: Ryan Hasson – Scalp, Scalp, Swing—Maximizing Market Opportunities - podcast episode cover

210: Ryan Hasson – Scalp, Scalp, Swing—Maximizing Market Opportunities

Jan 21, 20211 hrEp. 210
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Summary

Ryan Hasson discusses his unique path to becoming a senior prop trader, starting with no prior day trading experience and rapidly developing his skills at SMB Capital. He explains his methodical approach to finding an edge in low-float shorting and how he expanded this into a successful swing trading strategy, particularly focusing on theme plays and managing risk. Ryan also offers insights into crucial daily routines and mental strategies for continuous growth and performance.

Episode description

Ryan Hasson’s a senior trader at Kershner Trading Group/SMB Capital—having joined the firm’s New York office in 2016, after booking a one-way flight from Cape Town, SA.

Ryan may be best described as an intraday equities trader, however he’ll also put on swing positions when there’s a larger story/catalyst/theme at play. I was keen to learn more about how Ryan works these multi-day trades, so we step through specifics.

Additionally, I ask Ryan about his path to becoming a prop trader, early developments, and to conclude our talk, Ryan shares a few of his daily habits, routines, etc.

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Transcript

Episode Introduction and Sponsor

C

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🎵 Music

B

What's up, everyone? Aaron here. Welcome to episode 210. Allow me to introduce you to my guest, Ryan Hassan. Ryan's a senior trader at Kirshner Trading Group slash SMB Capital. He joined the firm's New York office in 2016, although he's currently remote from Cape Town. Ryan may be best described as an intraday equities trader, however he'll also put on swing positions when there's good reason to.

So I was actually really keen to learn more about how he works these multi-day trades in hot sectors and in stocks with really big catalysts. So we actually spend a good part of this chat just stepping through Ryan's swing strategy. This segment starts around about twenty minutes in. Prior, I asked Ryan about his path to becoming a prop trader and his early developments, and right at the end, Ryan shares some of his daily habits, routines, etc.

Hope you dig the episode, folks. I present to you Ryan Hassan for episode 210.

Ryan's Journey to Prop Trading

So we won't spend too much time on this. I mean, I'm very interested in hearing about the swing trading part and I'm particularly interested in that because from what I understand you're predominantly a day trader. So I'm interested in what gets you interested in taking swing positions and how you go about that.

So we will get to that, but just briefly, you know, prior to becoming the prop trader which you are today, I believe you've been doing that for several years now, what was your market experience before all of that?

A

Sure. So yeah, I've been trading with SMB KTG since twenty sixteen. Prior to that I had very little experience in the markets. Um so, you know, born and raised in in Cape Town, South Africa, went to school here, studied here, got my degree here, and sort of in my in my mid teens, just by chance rarely, I, you know, around the dinner table picking some things up from discussions and and hearing special guests on

C N B C Bloomberg, analysts, investors, portfolio managers, etcetera, talking about the markets. Um, that all sparked interest and I was fascinated about investing and I wanted to know more about it. And so In my mid mid teens, I just started doing some research. I started, you know, reading a couple of books and as I learned more I started asking more questions and and I wanted to know more. And so I just continued to do more research. I

set up some, you know, coffee meets with people in Cape Town that were in the industry just to find out more, you know, very casually. And I really started to to grow a liking for investing. Um at the time I didn't know much about trading, so that wasn't even in my head at all. And then, you know, in my Late teens, my uh my friend, a few years older than me, had started working at a prop firm in Cape Town. And he uh started sharing um a lot of what he had learned with me and that

just sounded um it sounded amazing. Um it sounded like the greatest job I'd ever heard. Um, you know, challenging but rewarding and it really, you know, pushed you to the limits. Allowed him to find out a lot more about himself than You know, he thought he would, you know, psychologically and and emotionally, which i it just all sounded

Really cool. And so he actually met someone. Someone from S and B Capital came down to work at their firm for a bit. And uh he met them and he told me about them. Um and he said, you know, if you you You've mentioned before you want to go to the States once you get your degree. And um if you are, you know, showing interest in what I do, there's this firm SMB Capital KTG through a joint venture. They're in New York and you should look into them and

you know, possibly apply. It's it's it's a really great firm, great training, great traders, partners, etc. And so, you know, just keep it in the back of your mind. And so I did some research into into the firm, um, watched some of their videos.

First Days at SMB Capital

and spoke with some people um online, on Twitter and decided that that's exactly what I wanted to do. So, you know, the the the next thing for me was um was getting some experience and building up my resume and and obviously completing my um my degree. And so while I was studying, you know, that was the main focus. The goal was once I finished studying to move to the States Um, you know, if I got the job at the firm or a firm of similar nature and start trading. And so for the next three years.

Um, while I was studying, I started investing locally on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange. Uh, also worked part-time. um and also started a entrepreneurial um venture, uh a business with a friend. Um and really just to build up my resume and and get some practical experience as well as the degree. Um everything I could to

to help me stand out so I could get the job. And um you know, eventually I I I got the job after going through their their um hiring process. Yeah, I booked a one way ticket to the States, didn't think twice. arrived there on my first day and quickly found out that I had no idea what I was doing.

B

Yeah, I bet. I bet. What were you studying at the time? I I don't know if I missed that.

A

So I got a uh undergraduate degree, a Bachelor of Commerce, specializing in financial management.

B

Okay, cool. And you said you made some investments on the Johannesburg Stock Exchange. Um, do you recall what some of those investments were? Like how did those how did those go? What was your first

A

Yeah. So basically, you know, when I first started learning about investing, mid teens, you know, the the idol was was Buffett. And so, you know, the first couple of books I read was The Value Investor, The Intel Intelligent Investor, uh, Common Stocks and Uncommon Profits.

um and as well as you know reading a bunch of um uh material online and so I was just very naively trying to identify value stocks, uh local stocks listed here, try and diversify and apply, you know, the 15 principles essentially that's spoken about in common stocks and uncommon profits to the companies listed on the JSC. And so some of the investments were South African breweries, Aspen Pharmaceuticals, Satrix 40, ShopRights.

Steinhof actually, um, which performed well, um, you know, ironically because what happened a couple of years ago. Yeah, those are the ones I remember off the top of my head. And honestly, looking back, I thought I knew what I was doing, but I had no idea what I was doing. I got very lucky and and and it actually the little portfolio, if you want to call it that, performed quite well.

And I think the excitement of that also further sparked my interest in in in wanting to know more about this industry. Um it also helped me realise that I didn't want to just invest and hold long term. I wanted to interact with the markets. you know, actively and every day.

Finding Trading Edge in Low Floats

really um why I started looking into day trading.

B

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So your early experiences were all very much longer term uh investments is probably the best way to categorize it. Yeah. So this is this is pretty wild what you did. Like you you got on a plane, you headed to New York, one way ticket. You'd had no experience day trading prior to this, um, yet here you were on your way to sit on a trading desk.

What was the what was your first impressions when you arrived there? I imagine it was somewhat of a a shock or it surprised you in some way. Tell us what what it was like.

A

Definitely. So Well, I guess to go back. So growing up I I would come to the States quite regularly. Um, you know, my father and mother, both of their on both of their sides, a lot of family members live live in the States. So I would visit frequently. Um and so I was very familiar with New York. Um so there wasn't a culture shock, but when I joined the firm Um I like I said, I realized um I had a lot to learn. Um I joined with nine or ten

Um, other people and they all seemed to know so much more than I did. Um, and at at first I was overwhelmed. Um You know, I I knew this was gonna be a huge challenge. Um, you know, they just from from a technical side, fundamental side, um the overall knowledge of the stock market and the the US market was just um

you know, head and shoulders above mine that um it was quite daunting. Um and so at first i i it's it it seemed like I was at a bit of a disadvantage, but then You know, I came to realize that as a new trader, someone that's you know, just got a job at SMB and and and and

you know, I had the characteristics in terms of competitive up for a challenge and I knew that this is what I wanted to do. I wanted to succeed. I came to realize that I was actually in a good position because I was in a position where I had no bias. Um, you know, no preconceived notions and I was there to learn from traders that

have already achieved what I want to achieve or are doing what I want to do. And so um I was able to very quickly absorb, you know, all the lessons that I learned um in those six months, um, like a sponge. And and um I think

I I honestly think I'm you know, I was in a better position arriving there not knowing anything than if than if I arrived there, you know, with my own strategies or idea of how to make money in the market. Um so it's funny how that turned out, but but that I think a big part of um why I'm still trading and have been successful is because I joined the firm not knowing anything.

B

Yeah, yeah. It is funny, it kind of goes both ways. It's like some firms really like that you have experience before applying, um, and they really value that. And then there's also you know, the other way of looking at it, and this is kinda how you got your foot in the door, I guess, is like having no experience, so no bias, no preconceived notions.

Yeah. But um what sort of things were you trading in the beginning? And this is gonna lead us into obviously the sort of things you're trading now, but where did it all start for you?

A

Sure. So so in the beginning, because I I never knew who I was as a trader, um, I decided that I was gonna trade very small size and I was gonna trade everything. So by everything I mean I was in a trade, you know, large, medium, small caps. I was in a trade on the long side, the short side. I was in a trade stocks in play, so stocks, you know, that have elevated arval, uh breaking news trades.

mean reversion trades, I was going to trade low floats, IPOs and and everything with small size. And small size because, you know, all the senior traders had told me that, you know, as a new trader, you're gonna go from losing to losing less to breaking even. to making money to making more money. So I decided, well, you know, by the time I figure out what I'm doing, I don't want to have a hole. So let's experiment with everything for

Three to six months, let me record all that data. And after six months, I'll be able to analyze that data and figure out. Well I guess let the data tell me um where there are some signs of edge in my trading, um, be it long side, short side, both sides, you know.

B

And and

A

small, medium, large caps, what time of day, um and what particular setups, etcetera. And so that's what I did. And you know, every day I would play book you know, the best trades that I made, the best trades that some of my uh peers that I started with made. I would do anti playbooks so I could, you know, document what I did. you know, wrong, which was more you know, I had more of those play books than the good playbooks in the first six months. But I learned from that. Um

And then uh, you know, asking the senior traders, hey, what did you trade? What did you do well today? Um, and then document that and sort of analyze their trades um so I could kind of pick that brain in that sense. Um and then after six months. Um I analy you know, give or take six months, I kind of look through all of my data on Trader View and I found that um

I wasn't making money trading large caps. I wasn't making money trading, you know, uh large caps earnings or breaking news, but I was making money consistently trading low floats and specifically on the short side. And so I decided that for the next six months I was only going to focus on low floats and I was gonna

really learn everything that I could about trading low floats from building out in-depth playbooks, documenting, you know, high-edge and probability setups. Um I was going to understand the psychology behind the moves. um the technical side, fundamental side, how to read the SEC filings, understand different forms of dilution. et cetera, et cetera. And and so that's all I focused on because I wanted to now show that I had edge. I had found edge. I uh was consistent. I could be profitable and um

and and slowly bump up my size and risk uh in the process. And so that was the next six months uh of trading. And so that's what my first year looked like.

B

Can I just jump in there? So that first six months was very much a discovery period. Totally. And you kinda honed in on uh playing the short side of low float stocks. Correct. Around that six month point. What did your trading results look like um in the second half of that year? So the next six months?

A

So first six months I I was just consistently taking small losses and then the second six months um my curve sort of flattened out and then it started to uptick and so I I I gained consistency.

B

Was it was it obvious or was it, you know, a bit lumpy sort of still.

A

very obvious. Uh first six months I went from basically you know, losing three out of five days. You know, one week maybe you get lucky, you have a good week, but mostly it was every week, three days I'd lose. And then the second six months was um, you know, three out of five days of the week I would be profitable and um the other two days I would manage my risk well and, you know, the losses weren't substantial.

Sizing Up and Risk Management

That was my first year. Then my second year I said, Okay, well I I've proven now for the last six months that you know I I I do have edge um in trading low floats and so now I need to, you know, make a living trading low floats. Um I need to you know, form a consistent stream of income as a trader before I look to revisit some of the um trades and strategies that didn't work, you know, in the first six months to build up multiple streams. And so the next six months was all about sizing up.

managing risk and really doubling down on my rules and my processes um in order to um you know keep my emotions in check while I sized up uh and and how to not let that size mess with the way I manage my trades. And so the next six months was really just fine tuning my strategy, my risk management, my process, um, to to, you know, go from

you know, having decent weeks to having really good weeks and when you get that A plus set up once a week, um, not only to be able to capitalize on that, but to also recognize it in real time that, you know, hey, this is this is a trade that could make your weak. This is where you need to put on you know, three times the risk that you did yesterday, um, because you know, my stats tell me that I have

you know, a lot more edge in this setup, it has a higher probability of working, um, you know, so on and so forth. And so it was just fine tuning for the next six months. And then I think, you know, the next six months probably takes us to the to to more of swing trading.

B

Okay. Can I just jump in again? I feel as I should ask you about any systems or processes that you use to assist you with sizing up in that second year.

A

Sure. So you know, some very small, simple things. So basically I would take I took P and L off of my screen to sort of um disconnect me from the number. Um in and when sizing up at the firm. uh the way I thought about it wasn't that okay if I'm you know risking X now I'm risking Y. I just thought about it as a percent of my risk. So if I was, you know, risking 30% of my stop loss on the day, um then

I got a risk bump, I would still be risking thirty percent. So the percent would always stay the same. And that's how I thought about it. Um And and that and that helped me. So one, I would I you know I disconnected myself from the PL. I took it off of my screen. And two, I never thought of how much I was risking in terms of, you know, the dollar amount. Um I rather thought about it as a percent of my

stop on the day. And so that stop was growing every few months. Um, you know, my risk that I could take each day. Would grow and grow and grow as I would get better as a trader. Um, but the percent always stays the same. And so I just applied that principle and that made it. fairly easy to size up. With that being said, sizing up has been my biggest challenge as a trader. Um, you know, to to feel

the pain of sizing up and you know taking bigger knocks um and not letting that sort of mess with you emotionally. And so these are just a few things that I do to try and curve that a little bit.

B

I presume the the max loss on a day is uh that amount is controlled by the firm. Um, but is there some sort of formula for how that's adjusted?

A

adjusted in terms of how it gets bumped up.

B

Yeah, exactly.

A

Yeah. So uh you know, when you start and w when you're in a new trader, you have to show that you can be consistent, whether it's for a couple of weeks or a month, and then, you know, your your risk, which is very small at that time in your career, gets bumped up quite frequently. Um and then as you become more of a

a a developed trader, consistent trader, a senior trader, conversations take place between you and you know the risk manager. Um and if you've performed well, if you haven't, um I would say Disrespected your stop or or or your rules. Um then you frequently do get bumps um, you know, if you're performing and often making whatever your stop is, if you make that in PL regularly on a you know, in a week or on on a month on particular days, um, then, you know, that that warrants a risk bump.

So that's that's pretty much how how it goes. It's different with each trader as each trader has their own strategies and and some strategies. requires a bit more flexibility. But for me it's it's more controlled in the sense that if I continue to perform and size up, um, and I need to take more risk as I'm sizing up, then the risk needs to be adjusted.

Transitioning to Swing Trading

B

Right. Okay. That makes sense. Um So tell me a little bit about how you've leveraged the skills which you developed from initially shorting low floats and how you've kind of built out your playbook into other strategies in other areas of the market.

A

Sure. So yeah, after like a year and a half, a year and a half, two years, I realized That I had sort of boxed myself in. You know, I I had become a bit of a one-trick pony. I was just trading low floats on the short side. There were other traders that were trading them only on the long side. Um, there were traders that were

um once on the backside of the move, uh they would swing the low float short um for a couple days. And so I realized that I don't, you know, in order to to make it in the industry to be a, you know, not for a few years, but

Make it a little bit.

A

sustainably as a career, uh, I needed to get out of that box and uh learn some new strategies and be more relevant for when the market adapts. And so the first thing I decided to do was okay, I'm already trading low floats and, you know, say a low float goes up two, three hundred percent, it tops out, puts in a lower high, um, and cracks below VWAP. You know, I'll I'll be in on the lower high. Um

and I'll, you know, catch the move to the downside to VWAP. I'll ho I'll hold it till the market closes and maybe if the stock went up three hundred percent, um, on the downside, you know, I'll catch

twenty percent of the move. Um, but then the following day, you know, that low float would trend lower and retro retrace thirty percent on lower volume than it did the previous day. And then the third day would retrace lower. And so I I realized that okay, I'm catching day one, um, which is really the tough money when the low float first tops out, puts in a lower high, or you know, consolidates it VWAP, cracks VWAP, multi-day VWAP.

whatever the setup is, but I'm only in on day one. And then, you know, tomorrow's a new day, I look at a new start. So that was the first change. I I decided all right, I'll I'll continue to do what I'm doing. But I'm also uh gonna in a separate position short the stock once I've confirmation that we have gotten a change of character and it's now the backside um and I have a level to trade against, I'm able to manage my risk. I'm gonna put on a

Core position, and that's going to be a swing trade. And so uh as well as trading it intraday, I'm also going to put on a swing trade and I'm gonna be there for the meat of the move over a period of two or three days and I'm gonna, you know, be a bit patient because that's I feel where the real money is made. Um and so that's what I worked on.

Next, with that came a lot more work. Um, I had to you know, try and eliminate as much risk as possible in the sense that I needed to identify when it was appropriate to put on a swing position in low floats, um, when there was high probability that

the stock was going to retrace fifty or seventy five percent of the up move that it had just made, um, when there was a high probability that they were gonna raise capital. Um, you know, so on and so forth. And so I I had to do a lot more research and You know, I had to initially start with small size when I started swing trading them overnight until I got comfortable and and fine tuned that strategy.

Um and then I started, you know, sizing up just like I did when I first discovered my edge with low floats, started sizing up in that strategy. Um and that's now become um you know, probably one of my best strategies and it's not just with low floats, you know, I then leverage

the scale from initially trading low floats actively on the short side to trading them on the long side as well now, which is which is, you know, greater in the current market um than it has been historically shorting them, trading them on the long side. You then I went to shorting them as a swing trade, which then also kind of um transferred over to shorting OTC stocks, um, swing trading on on on the short side as well as on the long side.

to also then applying these skills and leveraging those skills to trading, um, you know, overbought, oversold, um large caps, IPOs, um, you know, Neo Tesla For example, those type of large caps that are overbought and give you those intraday opportunities to ride momentum on the downside or even a short squeeze um to the upside. So really it's it's

transferred over to various strategies. But it just started, like I said, with low floats and then swinging them on the short side to now kind of in all areas of the market.

Identifying Market Themes for Swings

B

Yeah, it's really interesting because I mean, I myself am trading around intraday and often you're trading you know, the same stock uh day after day for a few days and like you said, you're kinda when you sit back and you look at the bigger move, it's like you're making it almost making it harder for yourself. Like you're taking out little bits here and there. Where if you take a step back and look at sort of the theme which is playing out here.

Mm there's, you know, potentially a lot more money to be made just uh holding on to this thing for a little bit longer.

A

Exactly.

D

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B

So how do you decide when it's appropriate to swing?

A

So it's it's you know, it's difficult to say because each move, each trade has its own story. Um, you know, so if I'm If I'm trading a low float on the short side, I I'll give you one answer. If I'm taking advantage of the current theme which we have. um with low floats with some OTC names, uh it would be on the long side. That that would be the blockchain Bitcoin theme. So I'll give you an example there. Um so for me it's all about risk reward and and and probability, right? So if

It's not entirely when I swing something about being right or wrong, but it's just about having great risk reward and a probability. The stats show me of it working, but mainly it's risk reward. So with with the Bitcoin and blockchain theme right now, there's been a lot of opportunity um on the long side with some uh small, medium cap and also OTC names. Um there was one name I actually just closed out this trade.

end of last week uh was the um biggest trade I've had um in my career. And this was a Bitcoin OTC name that has been consolidating for months. Um and when Bitcoin got above twenty thousand, this broke out of its daily range and consolidated above resistance.

And so basically for my swing trades um and for specific themes in the market, um, you know, which is just relevant for this particular trade, but many other trades I've taken um which have been similar, I'll have I'll have a sort of a market window on my screen and that will be for, you know, whether it's all the blockchain Bitcoin stocks or um

marijuana was a theme or you know the COVID vaccines were a theme. You know, think INO, S R N E, etc. Um, and so for blockchain, Bitcoin, I'd identified um over 10 stocks on Nasdaq uh as well as OTC and uh every day I would Flick through all the charts and just see how they were acting. Now, with this position, uh, one of its peers, similar stocks, had made a move.

well before this stock made its move. Um that one was H V BTF, another OTC stock which which started its move I think six six weeks ago or so. You know, that went from fifty cents to two and a half bucks, close to three bucks. And then this stock that I was watching was holding above resistance. So Essentially it was trading at twenty cents. I knew that I was wrong in the trade at ten cents. So my risk reward was really good based on the way I believed this could go and where some of

you know, its peers had gone. Um and so I put on a position about two and a half weeks ago. And as long as it would hold above resistance and not get below where I would be wrong, I would hold my position and even look to add if it broke. above the space and took out the previous pivot high. Um and then, you know, but about a week ago it started its move, it broke out, I added and what these OTC names and some of these swing positions

provide is just immense risk reward where again you're able to risk ten cents and this particular stock went from twenty cents to uh a dollar fifty eight. Um and so That's where m a lot of my swing trades The focus is it's on theme plays, whether it was you know it's

The first theme that I ever saw was with the shippers. Um, end of twenty sixteen, dries, tops, ships, E S E A, uh, I think S E A S another one, G L B S, D C I X. Um, then we had blockchain Bitcoin, we had the marijuana theme, we've had COVID all the vaccines, uh and now we have Bitcoin blockchain again. And so it's i identifying um stocks that have a

real good chance of moving in this theme, um, gaining a bit of euphoria and attention. Um, and so catching them on the long side, which in this particular case it was a three week trade, and then flipping on the short side once, um if you will, the the bubble with these particular stocks bursts um and then holding for the retracement, which could also be a two, two, three day or one week position. You know, stocks go down a lot quicker than they go up.

Um and so that swing would be a bit shorter.

B

This might sound like a really simple question or a really uh obvious answer, but I think some people might appreciate me asking this. How do you get a sense for when a sector is beginning to heat up?

A

It's it's a really good question. So what I do is And and I I'll give you a pretty simple answer too. Um it's from talking to other traders. and sharing ideas and hearing the ideas. Often all the traders, you know, when many traders stop mentioning the same symbols or the same, um, the same theme or sector, you know that something

you know, there's just a lot of attention, a lot of traction. Looking on Twitter, how many people um on Twitter are starting to talk and and get a bias around particular stocks and a sector? Having my um certain scanners and falters and seeing um a bit of a irregularity of of how many names within one sector are performing well on the day.

Um and also looking at the volume traded within, you know, a basket of stocks in a particular sector. Are they all trading abnormal volume? Um does it look like someone is starting to accumulate a position and then keeping keeping an eye on on those stocks for a couple of days until you have absolute confirmation that okay, this is

you know, this is this is turning into something. Obviously with this theme, Bitcoin, you know, that that was really obvious because it's Bitcoin and the whole world's talking about it. But with other themes that aren't so obvious, um, would be

it would be what I just mentioned, you know, talking with traders, um, having all of the relevant stocks in a basket so you can track them each day and and see if they're trading um abnormal volume and percent gains on the day um and just keeping track of them.

B

Yeah. So can you just go through this uh a bit more? I think you you did touch on it in your previous answer, but you know, once you identify that a sector is beginning to heat up, there's some attention coming into this. How do you figure which individual names are potentially good swing candidates?

A

Sure. So the first thing I look at is, you know, has has this particular stock run before. If it did, where did it go? Um post run, was there any dilution? What's the current, you know, float size, outstanding size? Um so I look at all the technicals. I look at the company itself. I look at if they put out any press releases recently. I look at the chart. I look at, you know, is there a favorable setup there?

Um, and then I look at stocks similar to the one that I'm looking at and you know, have any other stocks started moving yet? Um and then I just try and gauge the overall psychology around that particular stock and other stocks in that sector. Um And so that's that's typically where it where the process starts. Um and then, you know, look figuring out how high the stock can go is, you know, a whole a whole nother discussion. But um You know, uh identifying it as is is a good thing.

as fairly simple as that. Um but at the end of the day it comes down to um, you know, the technical setup. Is there a good risk reward setup here? Am I able to manage my risk? Is there enough liquidity to to get in? Um and if I'm wrong to get out and not be slipped? Um and so, you know, even if something looks great, um, I'll often pass on trades if, you know, it's it's just not liquid enough. Um so it's it's gotta tick, you know, ten boxes.

Leader-Laggard Swing Trade Strategy

B

With the crypto example, you mentioned one name, I don't recall what it was, uh, which you said had already started moving. Uh so I guess that was kind of a leader in a sense. Um and then the stock which you actually traded, it sounds as though that was kind of lagging behind. Is that something you normally look for? Like is to to buy something which hasn't moved yet, um, which you think will follow the leaders in that sector?

A

Definitely. So So what I what I learned early on, um, you know, j just for these sort of theme plays, um, was that you always you always get you know, you you get the you get the leader. So you get the first stock that goes and pulls up other stocks in that sector with it. And then you get all the sympathy players. So all of the other, you know, the stocks in that sector start

poking its head up because the leader's gone. Um, you know, you don't want to buy that one because the risk world's not there. It's already up fifty percent, a hundred percent, two hundred percent. So everyone will turn their attention to names of similar nature in that sector and start buying those up. So, you know, I first saw this, um

with the shipping sector, uh I think it was end of twenty sixteen when dries went. Once dries went, you know, that went from a couple bucks to a hundred dollars. Um, that's when all the sympathy plays started. And on the long side, it's a lot easier. um, you know, to catch the symb sympathy than it is to catch the leader because it's usually after the fact. And on the short side it's the same. When when the head of the snake gets cut off like Dry's dead, um then all of the sympathy is

fall as well, sort of like a house of cards. And so when um, you know, the leaders, the the the couple leaders in the OTC market started to go, I immediately had confirmation that this is likely going to be a sector move. Um it was tricky because we had the smooth s twenty seventeen, eighteen, when Bitcoin first ran and all of these stocks had ran before. So I wasn't sure if you know, if maybe there was too much supply for these to be up you know, too many bag holders for these to go up again.

B

Right.

A

But that wasn't the case. So I I waited for confirmation, which happened in a few of the names. The the name I mentioned, H V BTF, was just one, but that was a fresh one. And so I waited for some confirmation. Once I had that, it came down to me knowing exactly which couple stocks I wanted to buy. Um if Bitcoin were to hold um at this point in time it was around Bitcoin was around twenty-three thousand. You know, Bitcoin were to push to thirty thousand.

And these stocks that I wa was holding was still holding above resistance. I I would then want to get bigger um and you know let the trade sort of play out. Um and so that's that's uh that that was my thinking there.

Managing Risk and Profits in Swings

B

Okay. I'm interested to know how you how you manage risk and you size differently on swing trades compared to intraday trades.

A

Definitely. So it it all depends on, you know, how much success I've had trading this particular setup in the past and how liquid the name is. Um and then the risk reward I have in the setup. So often when I take a swing trade, um I I risk anywhere from fifty percent to a hundred percent of my stop because I don't make these swing trades every week. I probably make one every couple months and um

Uh yeah, I'm very very patient in that sense and I only make them when I have sort of absolute confirmation that and belief in the trade. So when I'm trading intraday on a day to day basis uh as an active trader. It's usually about generating cash flow, making good trades, high probability trades, with maybe ten percent of my stop on the day allocated to a particular stock. Um I say stock because I'll be trading a stock and I'll have

you know, I'll make five trades in the day on that name. So I'm I'm I'm in a sense trading trading the story behind that stock on the day and and the momentum. So I'll allocate maybe ten percent of my of my risk to a particular stock that I know I'll be trading that day. When I trade a swing trade um that's A plus, I'll allocate fifty percent or a hundred percent to that swing trade, which would take one week or two weeks to play out.

depending on liquidity, that will determine and risk roads will determine whether it's fifty percent or a hundred percent of my risk. Um and more often than not, you know, th they they offer superior risk reward. So n not three to one, which is typically what I look for on a daily basis, active trading, but m you know, five to one or ten to one. Um and that's where patience uh comes in.

B

Yeah, on that subject, uh you are predominantly a day trader. As you said, you take these swing trades uh when the opportunity comes around once every you know couple months. So there's probably you you're probably somewhat ingrained to take profits quickly. I mean, are there any tricks which have helped you to hold on for these longer, bigger picture moves?

A

And that's a great question because uh you you couldn't have said it any better. Um I I I I have in the past struggled with taking profits too quickly on swing trades because like you said, um, you know, each day I'm I'm I'm scalping momentum. Um, or even if I have small swing trades on intraday.

Um, you know, that's on for an hour or two or three hours. I'm taking prof pro profits pretty quickly. Um so before each swing trade, uh I have a clear plan. I know uh I have my if then statements written out in front of me. Um and unless there's a change of character, I I stick to that. So

You know, for example, the particular trade that I just made last week, um, you know, I said, all right, if it gets above 20 cents, the next target for me would be 40 cents. So I'm not taking anything off until we get to 40 cents. And at that point I'll take off. for example, one fifth of my position. Then the next target is X, Y, Z. And I just follow my um my trade plan. Um, if I don't write it out, then as a person I know that I might get a little bit too

um erratic or emotional about the position or about the P and L and that will lead me to say, uh, well, I'll just take off a tenth here, I'll take off a tenth here. Ooh, it looks like it's going up too quickly, I'll take off a tenth here.

So it helps me to write my plan out before the move has even taken place, so that if it does happen, I'm not, you know, twiddling my thumbs. I know exactly what I need to do in order to um, you know, stay in the trade for as long as I need to be until it completely works or I'm wrong, I get stopped out, or there's a change of character and I need to just take my whole position off.

Um and then, you know, with swing with intraday trading, I I do something similar. Whenever I I make I'm very active intraday trading all sorts of stocks. Um Yeah, yesterday it traded a couple of small caps, traded um as well Tesla, so large caps and

And very active trading momentum in names. Um, but I also have the tendency to take profits too quickly. And on the one side it's a good thing because You know, if I get into a position and um it starts working, I'll initially take off some size to cover some risk and you know, the goal is to turn it into a risk free trade.

But sometimes it does more damage than good because the trade rarely works and I'm like shit, I covered fifty percent too quickly. I left so much on the table. So what I do now is um I have special keys set up that when a trade does work. I just hit one key and it layers um five birds. Say I'm shorter stock. This key will layer five birds in five or ten cents increments depending on the type of stock I'm trading in the spread to take off.

literally one fifteenth of my size very quickly. And that just psychologically helps so that I know okay it's working. I've barely taken off size, but I've taken off something and that helps me hold on for longer. Just just, you know, a little kind of mind game I play with myself. Uh one of the tech guys helped me set it up. Um and so I I make use of that in almost every trade that I take.

B

Yeah, that's awesome. That's really cool. I'm always fascinated by those sort of little you know, those little one percent things, especially when it comes to technology, which traders are utilizing.

Overcoming Overnight Risk Concerns

With the swing trades, how do you manage concerns with overnight risk? Or is it just something you've just got to be willing to accept?

A

No, great, great question. So you know, if I'm short a low float, that's essentially where most of the risk uh is because, you know, a stock can go up.

you know, however much it wants to. It can only go down a certain amount. So a lot of research goes into it. Um and when if I take a low float overnight, um, I'll spend a lot of time doing my own research, looking through the filings, doing some fundamental research as well as talking to other traders for myself to have the confidence that okay, um You know, the stock did run, it went up X amount, it has topped out and there is

a very high probability that based on the close it had today, it's probably gonna gap down five or ten percent. The uh, you know, I doubt they're gonna put out a PR. They've already kind of run that course over the last couple of days. uh there's a high chance that they're gonna do an offering and and just ticking all the boxes essentially. Um what I also do is if I do take a swing trade, I'll never put on a short, you know

just before the market closes. I'll never put on a fresh position in a low flow just before the market closes. I'll always would have traded that stock intraday once it turns to the backside or on the long side as well. Um and I'll lock in profits. And then essentially I'll allocate what I've made in that stock as my overnight risk. So, you know, I'll I'll I'll have a stop in place.

um for you know four AM the next day if it's out above a certain price, I'll get out at a particular price, which will essentially eat up the profits I made the previous day trading it. Uh I you know, touch wood, I haven't been in a situation where I've taken a a stock overnight short and it's gapped up.

you know, hundred, two hundred percent on a on a PR. Um and I think that's because I just do my research beforehand and, you know, weigh up um the probability um of each different scenario playing out. And on the long side the the same applies on the long side. For that it's all about, you know, risk reward, essentially.

B

Yeah. sooner. So when you actually are putting on these positions, like when it actually comes to executing uh your entry for a swing trade It's done during the day. So by the time it comes to the close, you're already in profit on that position, I presume.

A

Exactly. So like, you know, say you have a stock that goes from you know ten dollars to thirty dollars. And, you know, the on on the final day the ATR expands and you know, previously it's been going up two, three dollars a day. And on the final day the stock goes up. seven dollars to thirty, um, that's when you get the largest one minute, five minute volume candle. And immediately it you get that kill candle, it snaps, it breaks below the one and two day VWAP, it retraces, makes a lower high.

Um and then on multiple timeframes you get confirmation that okay, the stock is topped out, there's a lower high, it's holding below the one day VWAP, looks to break below the two day VWAP. So so everything aligns within the story and gives you the confirmation you need. At that point,

I will put on a short position. Um, and the same thing applies on the long side, you know, if it's oversold. Um I'll put on a short position or a long position and I'll say, Okay, I would like to swing this if it closes weak and if I want to swing this, I would want X amount of size, but I'd also like to catch the momentum move. So on the lower high, you know, I think it's going to break below the one day, the two day VWAP and go to, you know, the open of this morning.

Um, you know, just off the top of my head. And for that move, I'd like to hold X amount of size. So I'll put on both. I'll combine the size or I'll put it on in two separate accounts of the firm. And as soon as the intraday trade plays out I'll cover my position, but then I'll hold a core position.

um for if the stock closes week and I want to take it overnight so that I can uh, you know, essentially catch a gap down if there's a high if I deem a high probability of that happening. Um and then essentially have that call the next day to trade around.

B

Yeah, nice, nice.

Recognizing a "Change of Character"

Something you spoke about just before. Um, when it comes to closing out these trades, uh I think you described it as a change in character. Yeah. Can you speak to that a little more? Wha what do you mean by a change in character?

A

So so VWAP is a very important indicator that I use. Um so for example if a stock has been um say I'm I'm along something and it's been uh holding above intraday VWAP um predominantly each day and it's been closing near the high each day um and the long trade is working. Um and this is maybe a two or three day position or even an intraday position that I'm holding. If the stock then Pulls back to VWAP and

breaks below VWAP and trends lower, then that's a change of character. If the stock um speeds up above VWAP um and puts in, you know, a

a topping candle, high volume bar makes a lower high and breaks below VWAP, it's a change of character. So basically it's identifying the way that the stock's been moving and the psychology in the stock and um if that no longer works and if there's a huge change and the sellers, you know, reading the tape take control and the stock's now making lower highs or it's unable to reclaim VWAP.

um then that would be a change of character. And, you know, I would then be wrong and I would close out the position. So that would be on an intraday basis or if I was swing trading it, I'd be looking at the you know, the hourly chart and multi day VWAP to identify trends and a change of character.

Essential Daily Trading Routines

B

Let's just finish here with a couple questions uh around processes, systems, etc. Are there any daily habits or routines uh which you stick to?

A

Yeah. So essentially my day starts with me going through my pre flight checklist. So my pre trade checklist. And basically You know, I ask myself simple questions. You know, did I did I sleep well? Uh did I have I eaten well? Did I exercise? Am I feeling fresh? And is there any A plus opportunity on the day? And if I tick all of those boxes, then I know that okay, today's a day to

to really go for it, let's um let's put on extra risk. Um so that's the first thing I go through is just a a checklist to see where I'm at and how I'm feeling for the day and if I'm in a position to to take risk on the day. Um that keeps me in check. Uh the second thing is reviewing my trades from the previous day, if I have any positions that I carried over, going through that and maybe reassessing my trade plan, coming up with new trade plans for new stocks in play.

Um, I then speak with a few traders at the firm. We share ideas, um, bounce ideas off of one another and our trade plans. Um, and then I look through all of my um Yeah, by then I had looked through my in play scanners and then I looked through some of my other scanners and filters to essentially alert me to any other opportunities in the pre market that I might have missed that I should be paying attention to. So essentially just

using that technology to kind of supplement and and complement my my strategy and give me a some more eyes in the market. Throughout the day, um I have Some alerts set up on my uh on my phone, um just some alarms every thirty minutes to sort of zoom out, remember the bigger picture. Um it can be very easy when you intraday actively trading to get sucked into the one minute chart, the tape.

Um so I I often remind myself to zoom out, you know, look at the fifteen minute, the hourly chart, daily chart and just take stock of how everything's moving.

Um that helps too. And then, you know, I have sticky notes all over my computers which pertain to rules for all of my different setups. You know, from rules to three strikes and you're out. If I'm trading a stock and I've traded it three times and all three times it doesn't work, then then that's a scrap the trade, scrap the stock, move on.

Um to you know other reminders, you know, if a stock's trending above VWAP, you know, don't short it. If a stock's in a range, don't touch it. Uh if it's trending below VWAP, don't try catch a falling knife. um et cetera, et cetera. So very very rule based and process driven.

Comparing Performance with Other Traders

B

When you said uh speaking to other traders at the firm, it just reminded me of something I had in my notes here. And I think this is an interesting question. You know, you rub shoulders, although maybe it's more in a a digital way at at this stage, um, as you're uh in Cape Town right now in and not New York. Yep. But You are speaking with some some very sizable traders, uh, from what I understand, how do you deal with the natural tendency to not compare your performance to others?

A

It's a great question. And I know that, you know, with everyone sharing their results online, it can be very easy to compare yourself with others. Um, you know, as traders we all have growth mindsets. We all want to continue to grow, put up bigger numbers and results. Um but at the end of the day, how I deal with it is I just, you know, remind myself that I'm competing against myself. And so the traders I talk to each day are, you know, ten times

bigger than me. Um in my eyes they're some of they're some of the best in the world. I don't compare myself to them because, you know, they have they have their own journey and, you know, a lot of them have been trading for a lot longer than me.

Um rather I say to myself, Well, if they're doing it and and if they're trading at really the highest level, um there's no reason that I can't get to that level. But right now I'm just not there. So instead of forcing myself to use all the risk and size that I have, uh, it's important to remind yourself that and, you know, remind myself that um it takes time, you know. as traders, if you're doing well, you've gotten to this stage in your career.

by doing you and doing what works for you. And the only way you're going to get to the next stage is to continue doing what works for you and um responsibly sizing up. And then eventually, you know, you'll get to that level. But if you start trying to push yourself way too much and let the size and P and L drive your decisions, it's not gonna work out. So I I continue to remind myself that. And basically

kind of reframe it and look at it in another way and and let it motivate me rather than um, you know, bring me down that, you know, these guys put up bigger results than me. I think it's it's amazing that There's some traders putting up the numbers they are because if they're doing it then there's no reason

you know, all of us can't do it. And so rather let it motivate you, learn from them. That's what I do uh each day and ask questions, you know, and that's the best way to to continue to to grow and learn.

B

That's a really great answer, man. I love it.

Setting Annual Trading Goals

Um, as we are at the beginning of a new year, uh right at the start of twenty twenty one. How do you approach goal setting for the year ahead? Is that something you do or?

A

Yep, yep. Something I do. Something I did just recently, yeah.

B

So how do you how do you think about, you know, the goals and sort of targets you wanna uh reach for the year?

A

So I do it in um I guess to to summarize it, you know, not not from a you know, PNL perspective, but just from my trading performance last year. Last year was obviously a great year and a historic year for traders in the volatility that we had. So what I do is I ask myself, Um did I do a disservice to myself in

with any of my strategies? Um, you know, the answer was yes. I I was too com even though I did well, I was too comfortable in a lot of my strategies and positions that I took. Um, you know, I should have put on more risk and more size.

You know, it's kind of like what Andy said when he was on your podcast, Andy Kirshner said, if you're gonna sit in your seat the whole day, you might as well put on some size. And I love that. And um so I asked myself, do I do it did I do a disservice anywhere? Because if you have edge and um if you're consistently profitable and you're not making the most out of what you're doing, which is still within your wheelhouse and you're you're not um

letting that affect your trade management, then you're doing a disservice to yourself. So that's the first question I ask myself um once I have the answer to specific strategies and trades and opportunities. I then dive a little bit deeper and say, okay, on this particular trade um and this strategy, I need to size that up by an extra five or ten percent of risk. And I need to be held accountable for that. So I'll reach out to some of my trading buddies to

you know, a a partner at the firm or risk manager, and I'll say, you know, please hold me accountable as well. I I I need to be held accountable for this. I need to make sure that I do it. So that's the first part of it. Second part will be my routine and process. How did that work out last year? Do I need to tweak anything? There can be from sleep to my filters, my scanners, to how I prepare, to how I review, um, what needs to change, what needs to be better.

Um and and then comes my, you know, PL setting, my my goal setting. Um and Yeah, I think it's very important to review and set goals for the year, for the week, for the month. Um it's it's imperative, just as if we were, you know, we're all running our own small business. So, you know, we need to have a tight leash on everything we do so that we can continue to analyze it on a daily basis to identify, you know, any weaknesses or Or all strengths.

Episode Conclusion and Takeaways

B

Good stuff, man. Let's uh leave it there. We've run for about an hour now. If someone wants to find out more about you, I know you are on Twitter.

A

It is trader underscore rh nine four.

B

Okay. Excellent. That will also be in the show notes. Ryan, I wanna say, man, thank you very much for doing the podcast. It's been um really cool to to hear about your processes, especially the swing trading aspect from the perspective of a day trader. So yeah, appreciate you coming on, man.

A

Thank you so much, Erin. It was it was a a great privilege to be on. Thank you so much for the invite.

B

My pleasure. Thank you.

A

You've reached the end of this episode of Chat with Traders, but rest assured there are more episodes.

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