139: Bobby Cho – Making Way for the 'Whales' of Cryptocurrency Markets

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Tasty Trade Inc. is a registered broker dealer and member of FINRA, NFA, and SIPC. This is the first one. Podcast. Welcome to the first one.

Aaron Firefield speaking, and it's great to have you here. Just before I introduce you to my guest on this episode, I would like to give a quick reminder that I'll be hosting a live podcast in Sydney. on Tuesday, the twenty ninth of August. So if you're in the area, please make sure you're there. I mean, what better way to spend your Tuesday evening, right?

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Right, now on this episode I have a very special guest, Bobby Cho, who is a cryptocurrency trader at Cumberland Mining, which is a company of DRW trading. Ever since getting involved in financial markets during two thousand and eight, Bobby has gravitated towards mostly illiquid, difficult to trade products. So in some ways it was almost inevitable that he would begin to explore Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. And this was around 2013 while Bobby was vice president at Second Market.

In 2014, Bobby became director at Bitcoin Exchange ItBit. and then of course joining Cumberland Mining in 2016, who are one of the largest institutional liquidity providers in cryptocurrencies. During the episode, Bobby and I got speaking about some pretty interesting things which ranged from the infrastructure of crypto markets to the curiosity and entrepreneurial mindset which powers DRW.

and the challenges of exchange arbitrage to the real-world value of blockchain technology. So without any further delay, here is Bobby Cho for episode 139.

No, let's let's rock and roll. Cool, cool. All right, we'll start off by talking a little bit about your background. So, Bobby, I think it would be interesting to hear about some of the things you did before getting into cryptos because I think in many ways that kind of actually shape the path and it makes sense that you've wound up in crypto markets in some ways. So yeah, tell us a little bit about your background and where you very first got started essentially.

Yeah, sure. So my background's always been in trading, um, mostly on the liquid side of things. Um so when I uh first graduated college I went to a firm called Restricted Stock Partners. um which then became a company called Second Market, um which that business was then bought by Nasdaq.

But at my time at Second Market, I was basically on the trading desk for about six years, um, always looking at illiquid um securities products and assets. So e liquid meaning Hard to value, hard to assess, hard to trade, and then kind of these unique opportunities. And it's it it's really there where uh we first got introduced to Bitcoin and the idea of trading Bitcoin. It kind of fell into the same types of products and securities we're trading, uh aside that it was just Bitcoin.

Um but it was an opaque market. Um we had to figure out who was trading this thing, what institutions were involved, what it looked like, and really frame out the marketplace, which we did for a number of asset classes. previously. But Bitcoin was was just kind of a different animal at that time. Um, right? This is back in twenty thirteen or so, when there just wasn't much information as there is today. But that was uh effectively kind of how I got started.

And so after spending a number of years there helping to build their trading desk, which is now um uh uh called Genesis Trading, which is a part of Digital Currency Group. And so I moved from there to a company called ItBid.

Um the main kind of catalyst was when we first started looking into the crypto markets, the first thing that shouted out to me right away was for any professional or institutional trader looking to trade these markets they need infrastructure, uh mainly in the form of an exchange that they can rely on, um, trust, can trade on and um and and really feel comfortable, you know, sending money there.

holding assets there, holding uh balances and things of that nature. That's why I decided I go to ItBit. It bit was at the time uh an exchange that was domiciled in Singapore. Uh they had ideas of breaking into the US markets, and that's kind of where I came into play. So I was the first business hire for ItBit here in the States. They had a few tech guys. But really the idea was how do we launch a regulated exchange that can service the United States?

Whereas the the international side of things was was up and running, but it was really trying to crack into the US side of things. And so w we started thinking about a bunch of ideas of of how can we do this. We looked at, you know, all different types of structures. And that's when we landed on something called a uh a trust Charter.

Right, so a financial institution that's regulated at the state level by New York's Department of Financial Services. Other companies that are structured that way are um ICE. uh and some other exchanges. And so uh we ended up getting the first um you know, we'll call it the first digital currency trust company charter, um which made us a financial institution. We were subject to all the same things that any kind of bank would be, Basel III, uh capital requirements and and things like that.

And so um so that was a huge win I think for the industry because um we we were trying to do things the right way and and try to build a model that now other exchanges, most notably Gemini, has has followed and and and gone down that path as well.

And then that led me to to DRW, uh or Cumberland Mining. Um so way back when, uh let's go back to twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, when I was first looking into these markets, we stumbled upon Cumberland Mining and the guys at DRW. And it was really through that discovery that we realized, wow, there are other institutional traders that are either looking at these markets or trading these markets.

And um and so that's when I decided to join uh Cumberland after about a little over two years at ItBit. And um and today Cumberland is one of the largest institutional liquidity providers. in the uh broader cryptocurrency space, but but mostly focus on Bitcoin and Ethereum. Um we might make markets and other things as well, but but uh kind of the lion's share of our volume is Bitcoin and Ethereum. Um and so we work with a number of

whether they're miners, retailers, you know, exchanges, um, investors, funds, you name'em, uh we are we are probably dealing with them. And uh and the broad or The big part of our business comes from OTC trading. So that basically means um anyone looking to trade large institutional size uh we have high minimum thresholds is generally gonna come through our desk because one the exchanges can't handle that type of liquidity

And two, uh, we just have enough flow throughout the day that we're able to facilitate these transactions relatively close to where uh where market prices are. Okay. Well let me jump in here, Bobby. Let's just go back a little bit. To the point where you were talking about When you came across Bitcoin and you had the realisation that if any professional traders and large institutions were to get involved in this market, there would be a need for some form of uh better infrastructure.

At the time, I mean I don't know what year this was. I presume it was probably somewhere around 2012, 2013, but whatever w whatever it was. Bitcoin was nowhere near what it is today.

Why did you think it would be something that institutions would even be interested in? Yeah, that's a good question. Um I think when you actually well one, right, the the price was much lower back then, right? I wanna say somewhere around, you know Maybe fifty to one hundred dollars, somewhere in that range. So it wasn't the price.

That was super interesting. Although leading up to that point, right, Bitcoin did um uh did come from pennies, right? All the way up to those uh to that valuation. I think for for me personally, It was this idea that my whole career I've spent looking at these esoteric deals, whether it's looking at prospectuses of um uh fixed income deals that uh were first uh issued in the early nineties.

and trying to find and then dig through dig through all that material and finding the value um and being able to trade it. That that was super interesting to me at at a very early stage in my career. So then when I looked at Bitcoin, um right, I think like the first I always say to to people who say, Well, what's Bitcoin? I always encourage them, Well, the first thing you do is read the white paper.

I think I had to read the white paper about eight times over the course of the first two years I was introduced to it just to continue to familiarize myself with what does this thing do, how does it work, and what is the concept behind it. And it really wasn't that aha moment really didn't come about until I started using it. Through application, um, that's when it really hit me the the tremendous

potential behind Bitcoin at that time. And then just continuing to read about it, you you fully understand the um the potential of it, but at the same time the utility is not there yet, but obviously you know there are tons of folks, hundreds, if not thousands of people working on Bitcoin and other types of cryptocurrencies, trying to figure out some utility behind it and and different use cases. That white paper you mention, whereabouts can someone uh find that?

Uh you can just Google Bitcoin white paper and it'd probably be one of the first links that pop up. Um that is probably the the first place I would send anybody who is looking to understand Bitcoin because it definitely gets into kind of the nitty-gritty. But at the same time, I think a lot of the original vision of Satoshi has changed. But at the same time, I think that's the best place to start.

to actually get kind of where the genesis of this idea came from, um and then and then kinda broaden your search from there. I think today, uh as opposed to, you know, five years ago or whenever you want to call it. Uh there's a lot more information out there that's readily available to anybody that's looking to get into the space. Yet still people have this.

uh the similar issue where it's almost like too much information. Some information is misleading, some information they don't know, you know, how to validate it. So even though there there's more information out there today, there are a lot of contradicting things that are going on, but um I I always say start with the white cooper. Okay. And and then, you know, going back to w was it around two thousand and thirteen when you first started getting into Bitcoin?

Yeah, I think it was like end of twenty thirteen, beginning of twenty fourteen if I remember correctly. Okay. So like you mentioned, you started out with the white paper. That was really helpful. It was certainly a lot less information like we just established, uh, around Bitcoin back then. I mean, where else were you getting your information from? Were you talking to certain figures in Bitcoin like How were you trying to like feel out this market?

Yeah, I think that was probably the most challenging thing, right? Unlike um unlike anything else in other markets, right? So Um let's take for example, hey, I I'm a I'm a new firm and I need to figure out, you know, who's trading, you know, this particular fixed income product. Well, you look it up on Bloomberg, see who the Who the holders are, or maybe you talk with the issuer or things like that. There this is like a natural path to being able to frame out certain markets.

Bitcoin's different. The reason why it's different is is that it's a product that's worked on twenty four seven globally, right? So there is not this one niche place where you go to figure out, well, who trades Bitcoin. I think that's the unique and and kind of opportunistic part about it. Um but going back to your question, uh it it really was just scouring

blogs, forums. Um at that time there wasn't really a big Reddit Bitcoin presence or anything like that. It was literally BitcoinTalk dot org and and other types of uh of forums that people were talking about it. And then from there you start meeting more people and expanding your network. And really that's how how I kinda started out, figuring out, well, what's this market look like? And then the more and more you dig, obviously the more and more people kind of

um get introduced to you. And and that's kind of what happened with the folks at uh at Cumberland DRW. I think we were introduced to them on on an email just because uh at that time not many people were trading Bitcoin uh If you if you were and and people knew about it, they were gonna connect you with someone else. And I think people saw that as a natural kind of connection with us. Yeah. I mean it's kind of funny to think about in some ways that

You know, here you've got, I guess, you know, quite large professional traders and organisations who are scouring internet forums looking for information. I mean, it's it's quite ironic in some ways.

So tell us a little bit about Cumberland mining. Uh I guess one of the things I'm really interested to hear a little bit more about is Why are crypto markets interesting to DRW? Like DRW is obviously a very successful firm uh in traditional markets. Why have they decided to expand into cryptos as well? Like what's the attraction there?

Yeah, I think like just like a broad look at DRW, at least in my mind is is you you have a number of verticals of businesses, right? And and these businesses, whether it's like the core trading business Uh there's a real estate arm, there's a venture capital arm, and then there's like this cryptocurrency arm which is Cumberland mining. I think a lot of it stems from this idea of people here are curious. They're looking to solve problems.

and and you know, take aside the business traditional business, all that other stuff, if you really look at the crypto markets, I mean that is uh for the curious person, uh that is a marketplace that really just attracts you. And I'll I'll kinda uh give you a reason why here. So I often get the question, well, why does the price of Bitcoin move the way it does?

Um obviously there's there's a a degree of volatility and things like that, but at the same time, um just the sheer amount of variables and inputs related to the Bitcoin market is is fascinating to me. And what I mean by that is uh uh going back to the example or or the thought that, look, this product, right?

Uh from our perspective, yes, we are trading this this cryptocurrency, but other people look at it as, well, we're trying to build on top of this infrastructure, right? So you have a developer aspect to it. other people like retailers are trying to uh capture some sort of market share away from whether it's, you know credit card companies or something like that, right? So that that's like another segment.

Um then you have like the regulatory side of things that you know different pieces from all parts of the world are affecting the price of Bitcoin. That's super fascinating to me. That that that really is is something that that drives my curiosity because

It's not just uh one plus one equals two, right? You really have to figure out all these different inputs that are are causing m different movements in the price of Bitcoin. But yeah, I I'd say I'd say that kind of what what drove the The idea here is that one, I think it kinda fits nicely into the way that DRW and and Cumberland kinda position themselves related to the middle of finance and kind of technology, um or I guess fintech as people are calling it now.

and then just broader understanding different niche, unique markets, um, trying to solve a problem within it. And just as you mentioned uh at the beginning there that Cumberland mining kind of came out of a sense of curiosity. Do you think, just stepping back and looking at the big picture, that that's one of the driving forces of why DRW as a whole is so successful is because of the the curiosity that Um yeah, absolutely. Um I think if you don't have that right.

um and then you couple that with like some sort of entrepreneurial kind of mindset, right, then then you're a you're a in the box thinker. Uh to be honest, I think when I look at our business, let's just take Cumberland for example, right, you this isn't uh the business itself it there's no there's no cookie cutter recipe to to how to how to how to build the business, right? And so for me uh personally the the the unique opportunity to help build a

small business within a much larger one helps as well. And and to be honest, I think I think it really comes from the top, right? I think I think Don Wilson as the founder is exemplifies that kind of that mantra or that uh uh that principle of being curious about different markets, investigating different markets, and and looking at it from an entrepreneurial perspective, whereas other people may not look at it so.

So let's zoom in a little bit. Cumberland mining, you kinda described briefly what it is uh a little earlier. Can we just go into that a little deeper? Like What's the role of Cumberland mining in crypto markets? And I mean I'm sure you feel as though it's quite an important role. Can you just sort of flesh that out for us and make it very clear?

Sure. Um so Cumberland Mining is one of the largest liquidity providers in the cryptocurrency space. And and what I mean by that is that anybody that uh is looking to get into cryptocurrencies or maybe uh trade cryptocurrencies. um but in a large institutional fashion would generally want to face us on on trades. All the trades that we do here are on a principal basis, so we use our own monies and our own capital for our own risk. Um we have no investors, shareholders or clients.

Um everything we do here is is uh for our own book. And so, you know, whether we play an important market or or important role in in the markets it's That's I guess uh someone's opinion. But uh I will say that I think we we provide um a level of whether it's just institutional just um service or or something along those lines. that um that obviously you notice in what DRW DRW does broader in

other markets that we try to kind of replicate in the crypto markets. But really the way we try to position the business is is and again, uh uh Cumberland officially was uh was started in twenty fourteen. And I think the original vision is is that look We see this marketplace going somewhere over the next five-ten years.

Well, how are we going to position ourselves? We need to position ourselves where we sit in between the highway of the crypto markets, which at that time obviously was was really kind of a closed closed place. and also the financial markets. Right? So people will say, well why isn't there more correlation between

Equities in Bitcoin. Well, because there isn't this natural way to go across both assets, right? I think I think that's happening. I think you're like kinda seeing it with gold, you're kinda seeing it with other assets. Um but we really kind of positioned ourselves in the middle there, right? Because we know the financial world very, very well.

We have the systems, the technology, the infrastructure in house to help also facilitate what we've learned, what we've done in the financial world with the crypto world. Um that goes all the way to just creating best practices in the crypto world because Um the infrastructure is just so uh um so new and so young that we're trying to help shape that, along with obviously um other folks that that are working in the industry.

So it would be accurate to say Cumberland mining is essentially a market making operation, yeah. Uh that's correct. Yep. So we provide markets.

Okay. So how does what you do differ from market making in, let's say, equity markets? Yeah, I think I think like the main thing is um like a a large part of our business is this OTC business, right? So this large institutional size trading that the exchanges cannot handle. or just the just the sheer amount of liquidity just isn't there or the exchange just the books can't handle that. Um and so so we kind of created this little

niche area where where we're trading in and out of in terms of these large block transactions. And and that's just that's just how the business is. Obviously we're gonna continue to kinda expand on that and uh and see what the future holds. Okay. And how do the widespreads in Bitcoin and I'm sure some of the other cryptocurrencies as well? I mean, how do these widespreads work to your advantage if if it is an advantage?

Yeah, so uh just really quickly going back to what you said earlier, um one thing I just want to touch on is uh is the difference between the equity markets and and what we're doing today is um there's a lot more risk management that comes into play when you trade crypto. Risk management comes from General KYC.

general due diligence on the exchanges you're trading on and just general awareness of the product that you're trading because if you think about Bitcoin, right? Uh Bitcoin is a push function. Right. You can't after you send Bitcoin, it's gone. You can't claw that back or anything like that. So that's why obviously risk management is uh I think we uh

a large part of our business. Obviously long trade, but it goes it goes hand in hand. And then touching on on what you mentioned in terms of like widespreads, advantages or disadvantages, it can play into both parts. Uh let me let me go into the disadvantages first. If you were to ask someone what the price of Bitcoin is to ten different people, they'd all have ten different answers.

So price discovery is still happening. There are a lot of different indices, there are a lot of different prices, a lot of different exchanges. I think like the latest data I had was like over two hundred exchanges worldwide. And I mean, you know That's a lot for the current market cap figure. Um but uh yes, does it present opportunities in the marketplace? Absolutely. But at the same time, it's factoring in everything that we just talked about.

into being able to provide those markets, right? How are we able to provide those markets? Because we've done our due diligence, we've done our homework leading up to the point of obviously trading. Um so all those things play huge factors into into what we do. Okay. And if spreads were to become tighter, as I'm sure is inevitable, I mean, is that something that would be beneficial? Like is that something that would help you guys?

Um I think that's a sign of of the maturation of of the industry. Um I think that that is uh in my mind somewhere where uh the marketplace is going.

um and and there'll be some formality around it and y uniformness. Um so uh I welcome that day and and obviously I think we're still a few Um uh a little bit away from that time, but at the same time I think most would agree that we are uh the people working in the Bitcoin industry, whether you're trading, developing a product, running an exchange, uh doing any number of things, um that sign is is a general positive sign for the overall industry.

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Now, you said just before that managing risk is a huge part of what you do, essentially on a day to day basis. Can you also talk to us about how you guys are managing some of the security risks? Because as we know, you know, sometimes Bitcoin exchanges are hacked, different sort of things go on. How do you manage security risks? We have our own principles for um for custody and security of of our assets.

Um I can't go into the the nitty gritty details, but at the same time we we employ all the best um security practices that that one could. Um, but I guess touching on kind of the industry and and what's happening there, there are a number of, you know, let's call them custodians out there that that are trying to solve for that. Um and and that's honestly the number one question we get from potential counterparties.

And this conversation is happening I've probably had more of these conversations with, you know, fast money institutional guys um in the last six months than I have um my whole time in Bitcoin. uh in terms of well I want to trade this thing and say, okay, great. Um obviously we can help with that. But at the same time, it always gets to the point of custody.

So we don't custody anything for anyone, um, obviously'cause we're trading on a principal basis. And then their natural next step is, well, where should we go custody? And so that's that is the kinda like the the big question uh when you're first starting out on Bitcoin. Um but uh we've we've been able to kinda uh navigate that and and solve for that at at a very, very early stage of um uh of our discovery of the company.

Yeah. I mean I think that's a question that's in the back of everyone's mind when they uh are new to cryptocurrencies and they they're thinking about getting involved in it.

Uh, Bobby, one of the things I'd like to talk to you about or ask you about, sorry, is um the misconceptions that regular people or even some traders have about cryptocurrencies. Sure. W which one which one's there? There are a I think there are a lot. Um Yeah, so so I guess which ones?

Uh, what did we speak about the other day? Um so we spoke a little bit, I think, about I guess the widespreads. People feel as though that there's arbitrage opportunities which are quite hard to capture. Um I don't know, do you maybe want to start with Something like that. I think we can all agree that that markets are efficient.

Um and and spreads exist for a reason. And so when people first look at these markets, they say uh they look at the price description and th they just kind of uh they just kind of um uh are are amazed at that. But it's really when you start doing your homework behind kind of the exact calculations of why it exists, that's when things start to kind of fall in place. Um so I'll give you an example. Uh so one you have to understand that

Again, there there are hundreds of exchanges out there, right? But l let's just take like the top ten or whatever it is. Those top ten are probably domiciled in different jurisdictions. Um so that immediately starts to fragment out liquidity. So fine, you start from there. Then those top ten exchanges probably have different KYC structures and different regulatory structures.

So that further starts to bucket people who want to trade into different areas, right? So uh maybe one guy in Europe's able to trade uh on X exchange, but he can't trade on Y exchange. So the spread and the or l let's go back to the profile of the the trader. The profile of the trader is different for every single exchange.

The mentality is gonna be different there, right? So the characteristics and makeup of the exchange are different. So that can cause one reason why uh things trade differently on one exchange as opposed to another. Um and then also you have to start going into trading fees, right?

So certain exchanges will have flat fees, certain exchanges will have, you know, tiered structures based off different percentages or basis points. So that's another point of discrepancy. And then the other thing is, um Depositing and withdrawing dollars or different types of fiat currencies is going to be different for every single exchange. Let's take for example that I want to trade I'm a retail you know, a retail person, I want to trade, you know, I want to buy IBM stock.

Well my options are probably go to You know, Merrow Edge, Fidelity, you know, Vanguard, wherever you name it. And it's probably just a cheap ACH fee that I pay or or that I don't pay that that I send money into my exchange or my account. In Bitcoin land it's it's very, very different. Some exchanges charge flat dollar-based fees, right? So let's say I'm wiring a million dollars to the exchange. They may just take$100 right off the top.

then then um my bank's probably gonna take you know twenty to forty dollars and then their bank's probably gonna take another twenty to forty dollars. Then you come to exchanges that charge percentages based off the amount that you're wiring in or out.

Right. So so all these things you start to calculate and start looking at and you say, Well, okay, now I see why, you know, certain exchanges are trading at a premium as opposed to others, because maybe it's harder to get money out than it is to get money in and and vice versa. So I I say that that's like a misconception.

in terms of like like, hey, these opportunities exist, um, but when you actually start to delineate out um the reasons why, uh, that's when you actually start to see why that money, that spread exists. So do you think that's true even like once you've got past that initial hurdle or if it is an initial hurdle, it might be an ongoing hurdle, once you've kind of learnt

the environment like that and who takes what fees and how each exchange is is different, is it still very hard to capture those sort of price discrepancies? I think what the misconception is Is that there are you know, no one's really trading Bitcoin, no one's really arbitraging or anything like that. That's why it exists. No

People are certainly um trading Bitcoin and arbitraging between different exchanges and figuring out different ways to do so. But that in my mind, if you just took a snapshot of the exchanges and you look at the the spreads between the exchanges, right? Like in my mind It's pretty much all the same because everything's already been priced in.

I think another misconception that probably a lot of people have, and you might be able to shine some light on this, is actually the real world value of cryptocurrencies. I mean, do you want to speak about that a little bit? Sure. I think everybody and and this is kind of the the really interesting thing about Bitcoin. Um I think Bitcoin means or you know, if you ask people what Bitcoin is um or means to them it it would it vary wildly.

Um so the way I kinda look at like valuations of Bitcoin or anything like that is simply that I kinda look at it as and again this isn't gonna be the answer for for everybody, but going back to what I said about just you know, hundreds and hundreds of different variables and inputs

causing the price to move in certain ways, shape or form. Um, you know, my background having been in been involved with uh with a number of venture back uh companies, uh you know, startups to begin with that that have grown. Um I kinda look at the Bitcoin price as uh a snapshot every second of whether you call it the health or the growth or whatever the the status of of Bitcoin.

Right, so very early on you'd see Bitcoin move wildly off of um headline risk. So news would come out and the market would react. Accordingly. Um I think that's less and less and less so now, but um it's still affected by these things that are happening in the market, whether it's regulatory things, whether it's different types of um announcements that come out.

So when I look at like a private company and and let let's take like Facebook for example before it went public, um if someone had a view into the valu the second by second valuation of Facebook, well That is gonna change wildly throughout the day, right? So on on a partnership that they struck, right, the the price should go up. Right. Or if a key employee had left, well then the price may drop a little bit. That's the kind of way I look at the valuation of Bitcoin and and the prices.

Um obviously for us we're we're looking at them every second. But I I guess I would say that's how I look at the price of Bitcoin and the influence of Bitcoin and and and how things shift. I don't know if that's what you were going for. Yeah, in your answer there, are you kind of hinting at the technology which underlies Bitcoin, like the blockchain technology? Are you referencing that in some way?

Yeah, I definitely am. I I think um look I th I think at first for people today what draws them to Bitcoin is just the general price action and volatility. Which which is which is fine, right? That fine y you go and look at the price. Super interesting, right? Over the last year, over the last five years, whatever it is, you know, talking stick growth.

But then but then you start really uh in my mind, that's kinda the first magnet to Bitcoin. And then you start looking at, well, why is it like that? Why is the price going up like that? Sure, I'm sure there's a level of um just general kind of herd mentality of wanting to buy Bitcoin and hold Bitcoin and in and speculate on it. Uh but then there there definitely is this core amount of um uh investors who

actually understand technology and understand that and again di I had to learn this through application utility. Um just the just the general ease of use and the potential for Bitcoin. I think I think that there is a a level of valuation that is applied to people who who kind of understand that side of things. Well this is actually something I wanted to ask you about. You know, we see these cryptocurrencies which go up like fifty X.

or however much in a very short period of time, like in the space of just a month, six weeks, whatever it might be, they they move very quickly, some of them. They go from a few cents to, you know, dollars and dollars. Um, you know, are there fundamental reasons for why some of these cryptos move that way? Or, you know, like do participants actually value something fundamentally different about those cryptos?

Or is it just pure momentum? Because there's also so many cryptocurrencies which just sort of splutter around and don't really do much. And then there's some which just take off. I mean, why does that happen? Yeah, I it's it's tough to say, right? And I'd be lying if I said that we trade every single cryptocurrency on the sun but but we don't.

Um but a lot of that goes back to risk management, right? Being able to right for every single cryptocurrency out there you have to set up wallet structures, security, all sorts of things that uh that a firm like DRW we it's very difficult for us to move. Um like that. And and to be honest, we we take a very kind of um

uh whether it's just general kind of wait and see approach, um simply because there are a lot of projects out there now and uh and a lot of things to investigate. Um but having said that, uh I would say that I I don't I don't know the exact reasoning of why certain things, you know, kinda go up to, you know, a hundred X or or whatever the price is. But um I will say that we look at things over um a longer time duration or horizon um than maybe most traders.

And so while you know, something may be up on one day. Um, you know, let let's see how it looks over the next week or or month or so and then let's see what the utility behind it is and then let's also research it. Right. So there's kinda like a three pronged approach to uh to looking at these markets. Um I think for certain folks

Yes. Can you can you get into these markets and and make, you know, a a very quick dollar? I'm I'm sure you can. Uh we really try to take a look at at a long term approach with all the markets we kinda look at and and make.

Now Bobby, I wanna ask you this one last question. I don't know how you'll feel about it. Um it it's purely just asking for your opinion on this and you know, that's all it is, is an opinion. But what's your take on cryptos as a long term investment? Because A lot of people have the idea that they might be able to buy some of these altcoins while they're just a few cents, hold on to them, and ten years time they might be the next Bitcoin. You know, ideal scenario.

Do you think that thought is flawed in some ways, or do you think it it very well could be a worthwhile bet? I'll just preface and say that I'm not an advisor. We don't provide advisory services or or anything like that. Um but having said that, I'll just concentrate on on what we do and what we know. In terms of Bitcoin I think we're just scratching the surface here and I'm not even talking about just valuations, I'm talking about technology as well.

And I think we look at the general cryptocurrency markets as super interesting. To zero in on one project I think is very, very difficult. And to be honest, a lot of folks that may be looking at a lot of these projects, ICOs, you know, other different types of cryptocurrencies. uh a lot of them are tied to I believe Ethereum if it's if it's an ERC twenty token. And and to be honest, I think i if uh instead of betting on one then

Then you're probably gonna probably invest in Ethereum as a whole instead of just these individual projects. Um but look, certain people have convictions on certain technologies and certain projects and and so they're left to their own opinion. But at the same time for for us, uh, you know, we we just look at these markets and and really try to provide value and and just the liquidity we're providing.

Of course. Good answer. All right, Bobby. Well let's uh leave it at that. I know you're on Twitter. Do you want to share your Twitter handle so um anyone listening can follow along? Uh sure. It's uh at Robert. G is in Jersey, choke. I don't have many followers, but I w I welcome new ones. Good stuff, man. And the Cumberland Mining website, do you want to share that if anyone wants to maybe take a look? Sure, it's www.comberlandmining dot com

Feel free to look. There's there there's not too much out there, but we're we're just busy traders. Excellent, man. Well I really appreciate you taking the time to do the podcast. Um I'm glad we could make it happen. So yeah, thank you very much for doing this. Awesome. Thanks so much for making time and uh look forward to chatting soon. You've reached the This episode of Chat with Traders. I'd love it if you'd leave a-