080: Anthony Crudele – One Traders Volatile Path From (Below) Zero to Hero, and Beyond

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Traders, welcome to a brand new episode. I think you're really gonna like this one. So let me tell you a little bit about it. Uh, I spoke with Anthony Crudelli, who started at a very young age on the CME floor, and he has one really cool story about coming up as a trader. It does involve some pretty drastic failures, burning through significant amounts of cash, and a whole lot of perseverance.

But he eventually broke through and went on to have years of making six and seven figures while heavily trading the E-mini from its inception. In our chat you'll hear about Anthony's multiple blowouts, his turning point as a trader, his approach to trading futures today, and a healthy reminder to protect your downside.

Also worth mentioning, Anthony is a fellow podcaster who hosts the Futures Radio Show, which you can listen to at futuresradio show.com. So check that out. He does a really great job. Okay, let's get straight to it. Here is my interview with Anthony Crudelli.

Like I I think one of the things that I really wanna talk about is just really sustaining success and how I think that uh uh how the markets have changed and I just feel like mm the the you know, the ability to be able to stay in business is actually harder than getting to a point of becoming what some people would call a success, like actually making money. I think that it's actually for me it was harder to be able to know that once I learned something

that worked that when it didn't work that I I had to change into something else and like, you know, just the way that I approached uh my day to day operations is just r were so dramatic. And I mean one of the also things I think that is pretty interesting about myself

um that I think would c probably catch some attention is that basically I was kind of like what high frequency trading was before high frequency trading. I mean I was so active at the time, um w at the basically when at the inception of the E Mini. that um I mean I would be a lot of times I was five or ten percent of the total volume in the S P futures, in the mini. Um and I've been able to

Uh you know, I saw it from trade from ten thousand contracts today to what it was. You know, I mean I remember looking up at the board sometimes and being like I traded like five, six thousand, seven thousand contracts and they only trade like a hundred thousand.

So I would be like you know, at that point in time. When it became to a million contracts it was n I was never that great of a percentage, obviously. But I have done like thirty thousand minis in a day, which is probably I don't think most people I mean there I definitely know I have some friends that have done that but

You know, I've traded five hundred lots, thousand lot SPs. I mean, it's like I think that understanding how I was able to do that is a big part of it and like how I've went from that.

to what I now I'm like one to five trades a day, maybe even sometimes only a week. I'm like a completely different trader. And it's just because they took what I was good at and then basically so I sat down in a meeting I was actually so my clearing firm Uh, at the time they had like talked to uh other people had like w they were recognizing I was doing really well and

And I was actually sat down in a room with a couple of pit traders, uh, and these guys were offering to give us like a substantial amount of money. You know, they were like po starting a group and they wanted to basically learn how we scalped and we did this. This was like in the mid two thousands. Uh and basically we were all doing extremely well at the time. Everybody in there was a million dollar earner. Uh and It was kind of like

You know, we looked at them like, Yeah, okay, sure. It was kinda we kinda like laughed it off like you whatever, like we're gonna teach you what we do, it's just impossible, right? And then what I felt like what I didn't recognize at that time was that that was happening. You know what I mean? It was like the weirdest thing because

f about three, four five years later, like around oh nine, I noticed all of a sudden I'm like, Well wouldn't you know? It like the it just was like a different feeling, you know, I mean uh um I I was able to what I was able to do one day to the next day was just not carrying over.

It it's in it was it's just like a it was like almost like a light switch, but it probably was happening and I didn't even recognize it. You know what I'm saying? Like I was like fighting it and losing money and giving back a l a large portion of the money that I made.

And it was like until I was getting to the point to where I basically had to just stop myself from losing any more of the money that took me a lot of work to make. I then I had to like basically, you know, all of a sudden like start learning all over again in some weird way. You know, like I had to stop myself. So I feel like

That's that's more or less like my story. I mean, that's why I have strong relationships with CME. You know, I was one of the youngest members of the Merc. I started doing, you know, media for them when I was in, you know

my late twenties and it's probably very few people that were doing that, you know, and just because I was an SM uh a mini trader. And then I think the other thing I like to talk about is like we just did this we talked about this on our podcast. Um and I think that, you know, for you you you have You know, you got a really strong reach, you got a really good good audience. I think that a lot of people, like on Twitter, just

they think that the bigger followers are like the people that are the bigger traders when it's like really that's just not the case. You know, I feel like that's a total misconception of the industry. It's one of kinda like my pet peeves with it is just like, you know, I have i I I feel that Having people can be misled easily. You don't know who you're dealing with. You know what I mean? It's like you don't know who the people are and I think that

for trading and for traders, like kinda one of the points I wanna make about that is like you have to kinda be who you are. You know, I mean, I learned from watching other people, but don't be like blindly following what other people are doing and think that that's gonna take you to the promised land. I feel like 'Cause there's just so much noise out there now that it's like

You know, you could think someone's really popular and then really it's like I I've seen people come out and claim to be who they are. I spent twenty years in the trading floor. I never heard of these people. I mean, I I don't know who they are. But they say that they came from the Board of Trade.

the Merc, I I've never heard of them. You know, and it's like I sp I know everybody there. If I went there right now, I'd know everyone that was there and I spent all these years. But it's like so there's a lot of I think that one of the things I want to talk about to people is like

Hey man, learn from these people, whether or not you know what they do, do your own thing. Like don't be so convinced that, you know, like I took grains of salt from what people taught me and and put it into play. So those are some of the things that like I just like the evolvement, like current trading, like I feel so many people uh ask me these questions or say, Well, this guy says this on Twitter and you should do that and I just feel like it's like, yo

Ma you know, like how do you know what he knows? Uh um i it it's a weird thing. You know what I'm saying? Just a couple of things like that. I just find that to be Um something I I don't know how we talk b touch touch base about that, but I just feel like I want people to understand that it's like, hey man, if I could do it then you could do it in in whatever way you're doing it. You don't have to like blindly like I feel like a lot of people just blindly follow stuff.

For sure. For sure. Yeah, yeah. Okay, we'll we'll make sure to cover all of that during the episode. So I mean let's just roll into it if you're ready to go. Rock and roll, man. Okay. So Anthony, I mean Tell us about why you decided to get into trading. Take us back to when you were I think you were around about twenty one years old at the time when you decided to get into it. What was your motive? Why'd you come to trading?

Well actually I started when I was eighteen years old, not trading, but that's when I got into the business. And it was by accident and literally by accident, I was actually in a car accident. I was in a head on collision right out of high school. Broke my femur. uh just all around bad, had to have s multiple surgeries on it. Uh and at the time I was really just unsure of what I was going to do with my future. I was looking at

You know, possibly going to college. Uh I really didn't I was kind of undecided. I was thinking maybe business school, something along those lines. Uh and this a car accident just kinda derailed me from all those things. I uh I was going to have multiple surgeries over the next six months. Uh, and the doctor was like, You know what, really you're not going anywhere, you're gonna need to rehab. Uh so what I did was uh I enrolled in

You know, basically um college, you know, like what do you call like C O D was College of DuPage actually in Illinois. I took one class and I had to get a job. And at the time I was like, Okay, what am I gonna do? The doctor's like, You need to build up strength in your leg. I was like, Okay, so I looked in the paper and I found a job as a runner. Uh, and I went to the trading floor, eighteen years old. And I figured, you know, I could do like more a couple of classes at night till I get

you know, my footing and then just try and figure out what I was gonna uh what I was gonna do. Well, it turned out once I got on the trading floor, I never even made it through my first class. I l literally just paid for it and never ended up going. I think I maybe went to it once or twice. And then once I got on the trading floor for the first time, I'm like, this is it. I'm just gonna f somehow figure out a way to, uh, you know, make this happen. And

That's how I got into it and you know really I started as a runner. I was in the meat pit. uh which some people may not know what that is. It's live cattle. I worked in all you know, where all all the different meats were. We actually had pork bellies back then. And then I became a uh clerk in the Euro dollar options.

uh after about six months of being a runner. And I spent about a year in the Euro dollar options, uh which was very interesting. I thought it was uh a a really interesting learning experience, but it was Not really my speed. I just felt that like it was slower. The traders were it just wasn't the action. I remember I used to take breaks and go downstairs and look at the SP pit.

And I'm like, okay, this is where I wanna be. I mean, th at this time, it was like nineteen ninety five, nineteen ninety six. The S and P was rocking, man. And it was just like that's where you wanted to be. I mean the Euros were busy too, but I was in the options side of it and I was just like, you know I want to go down there. Actually met a friend in the break room, got an opportunity to be a trade chucker. Now some people probably don't know what a trade checker is.

Uh well clerk first of all going back to what a clerk was, a clerk was basically what I did was I took orders from brokers on the desks and gave orders to brokers in the pit to then they gave the orders, they put the orders out in the open market and traded with traders or other brokers.

But a trade checker uh in the S P, what I did there was I worked for what was called locals. A lot of people know them as locals on Twitter or what have you. Uh and uh I looked for I worked for individual traders and I had about five. Uh great guy. And they each paid me individually and what I did was I'd go up to their coat, I'd pull the card out of their pocket. I'd take what was called a dupe, uh, which is a duplicate, like you actually wrote onto the card.

Uh and then when you took the card you had like a like a piece of paper that you pulled off and you and then you'd put that dupe in your hand and then you take that card, you time stamp it. And then you'd take that card and then you'd put it uh and turn it into the runner and then they would go in and they would punch that in. So what I would do is I would take the trade and I would check it with the other locals or other brokers.

uh clerks, uh trade checkers, and I would just be like, you know, hey, you know, Galt VXD, I sold you a five a two half, and they'd be like, check good. And I checked their trades to make sure that they were accurate, that they were doing in the pit. Uh and while I was doing that I would also do their money. So I would know how many ticks they were up or down. And I would tell them their position.

You're long, how many? Short, how many? And I know today that sounds so crazy to think with computers the minute you put position on, you know how much you've made, every take. and you know uh exactly uh you know what your position is. Well back then they would do, you know, they'd sell seventeen, buy six, they buy three, you know, they know that they sold seventeen and just bought back nine. They'd be like, where am I at? I'd be like, you're still short eight.

And then they bid on eight. I mean, so it was like actually you were very involved with the role uh of your trader. And that's really kind of how I started to learn how to trade through their eyes, uh, and seeing what they were doing, and then later I would kind of pick their brain. And asked them, you know, why do you do this? What were you doing? Uh and you know, I basically took bit bits and pieces of what they were saying.

uh and I would ultimately, you know, was just like kinda like building my arsenal per se of of what all of my good traders were doing and to eventually, you know, get myself in a position to do it.

So I saved up some money. I was twenty years old at that time. Uh I put in the paperwork to become a member and I became a member uh when I turned uh, you know, twenty one years old, which was a really interesting uh experience. I'm sure we're gonna dive deeper into that.

Mm, no doubt. So just one question before we move on any further. Um when you purchased a or when you leased a seat on the floor of the exchange, how much did that cost at the time? Because I had Peter Tuckman on who's uh a broker on the NYC.

I can't remember what episode it was. It was a while back. And he said that the cost to lease a seat on the floor of the exchange sort of varied between a few thousand dollars up to a million dollars and upwards, depending on different times. How much was it when you signed on? Well the seat I don't know how much the seats cost because I couldn't afford to buy one at the time.

But the leases on my seat lease, I believe my first seat lease was around three thousand bucks, maybe a little bit more than that. And then they slowly came down from there. Now mind you, I only had a twenty five thousand dollar account. It was every single dollar I had was in that trading account. And I was looking at w at the end of each month I was looking at, you know, a substantial loss if I just broke even. So there was a lot of pressure to make money.

uh to say the least. Sure, sure. Okay. So what was it like for you being one of the youngest members on the floor? I mean, did you struggle to get respect or were most pretty encouraging? Like what was the vibe like?

Well it's funny you say that, yeah. I mean, because it was a really a combination of both. It was more uh you know, hey, patting you on the back and giving you respect before you got into the pit and then once I got into the pit it was like you know, I felt like riding danger field. I got no respect. It was it was really not

Easy and to be honest with you, I could barely even get into the pit at the time because there were so many traders in there. Uh I was, you know, I'm just about six feet tall. Uh at the time maybe I was like maybe a hundred and seventy pounds. So I was basically, you know, skin and bones walking in there. And there's a lot of ex-athletes and people in there, and it was just

I was just getting muscled around. I couldn't even put my hands up to trade. It was really unbelievable. So uh when I was in the pit, I pretty much got no respect. It was very much a political game. I mean, that's why you see a lot of these companies now talk about top step. Um, because it really was like that. I mean, the higher you were in the pit and I was never able to actually stand on the step, I stole I stood on the ground.

Uh the top step guys were closest to the brokers, so it was just like, you know, they were like closest to the water per se. Uh so they got most of the trade. So I I really didn't get any you know, any respect. I really didn't get any trades. I mean my first trade, I remember I went in, uh I stood in the pit. I waited for the open to pass about thirty, forty minutes so I could actually get in there. And it was with another local I sold him to.

Um two two big S and Ps. It won five ticks against me. I was so nervous I bought I bought'em right back from the same guy because I was just so scared. I just wanted someone to trade with me. Uh and so I basically I lost, you know, ten ticks. uh uh on my first trade and and um like I said you would think, Hey, you're a newer guy, maybe help me scratch the trade because he probably could've. They didn't. So

Uh, you know, it like I said, it was probably more of like, Hey, congratulations, Anthony, good for you And then once you got in the pit was like quick they could care less. Okay, okay.

So what were your what was your mindset like going into trading? What were your expectations and beliefs that you had when initially starting? Now I imagine that like having spent a few years working for some of these other traders who were very active on the floor, that you were quite realistic in what to expect from trading. Was that the case?

Oh my expectations were high. I mean let's face it, I was twenty one years old. I was parking in the CME parking lot. I wasn't parking on P one. What P one is, those of you that were part of the Merc all know what that was. It was the it was like it was the the floor basically where you got out. um where you got out of your car, they valeted it and you were right by the elevator.

Um you were at the the closest and uh exit to get uh into the Merck and that's where like where all the top guys were. So that was like the goal to park on P one. You go on P one and that was where every car was, you know, it was the top guys in the business. So I had expectations of like I'm gonna be parking on P one. I mean the m the one mentor who I had who worked with me the closest

the the last the whole time I worked for him, I mean, he was always a multi million dollar year earner. Uh I had expectations that I could do that as well. So I really saw dollar signs. Uh and I just felt that, you know, there was pretty much you know, hey, I'm a member of twenty one, I'm gonna be rich. I mean that

ultimately what my mindset was going into it. I really didn't think about the hard work at that time and it's not because I wasn't a hard worker. It's just because I saw everybody else making money. So and I felt that I was prepared for it. But it was like the farthest thing from the truth. Okay. So when did you start to realise that that was the furthest thing from the truth? When did it kinda hit home?

Well six months later I had no money. My account was empty and I couldn't re-sign my seat lease. Um I remember that I had within two months to go uh after Uh it was about six weeks before um my final seat lease had to be paid. I just pretty much knew I was done because if I lost another dollar I wasn't gonna be able to pay the seat lease and I had no way of coming up with the money to pay the seat at least. So it was basically like six months later

I'm done. I mean, that's just that's just where it was. So at that point I was like, Okay, n now what? You know, and I had to have the conversation with one of my mentors. I I said to him, like, listen, I'm broke, man. I don't know what to tell you. And he's just like, Well, you know, you did good by us. Uh, you know, he uh was just a really good guy and he offered to give me twenty five thousand dollars. He's like, I'm gonna help you get back on your feet here.

You know, and you know, you better take this more seriously. Not that I wasn't taking it seriously before, but it was just like, Man, it was six months I blew through twenty five grand and to me at the time, I mean, uh to anybody, I mean that's a lot of money and six months later it's gone. I can just remember my parents going, I told you to buy real estate, you know, it's just like you're bailing all these things and and I'm just going, No, I can do this. So at that moment, I think because

I had run out of money and I had really I I couldn't even survive. So I was, you know, basically having to go back and work in the pit when I wasn't trading, uh, that it was like, okay, eye opener, figure this out, otherwise, man, you're you're done.

Okay, okay. So walk us through c maybe like the next year on from there when you sort of got that injection of extra capital. So really from there is when I think kinda the trajectory changed for me because I went from trying to be a pit rader to realizing I wasn't going to be able to be a pit trader successfully. Uh and at that point I used to stand outside the pit and I'd watch the open.

And like I said, it was so busy that standing outside the pit was the only really the only thing I could do in the mornings because if I stood in the pit, it was just like there was just no way I was gonna get any trade. So Uh actually uh what we used to call the Globex guys. Some people know what that is, some people don't. Well Globex was the

was the original basically electronic trading platform for CME and that was overnight and we called them the Globex Guys because at the time they had just started a product called the e Mini S P, which I'm sure everybody's pretty familiar with now. So

At the time they had come to me and said, Hey Anthony, you know, we see you're standing out here. Why don't you come and try this? Uh this is called the E-Mini S P. And at i it's looking back at it, it was so barbaric to think even how it was kind of like launched and and the way it was is they had a thirteen inch screen and there was maybe two of them on the trading floor. Uh and you went in there, they gave you a login and you logged in.

And then there it was the E Mini S and P. Uh I mean I don't even think it was trading ten thousand contracts when I first logged in a day. Uh it was barely doing anything. Uh and the bid and offer was probably fifty cents to a buck wide. uh and it was tucked away in a little corner of the floor of the merc. And basically when I had told my mentor

uh that this is what I was trading. He was kinda like why? You know, I mean like like what what is that? I mean is are you kidding me? And everyone booed and hissed and told me I was out of my mind for trading that. And ultimately at that point I started studying charts.

I started taking the philosophy of pit traders and putting them into uh, you know, electronic uh trading like, you know, trying to basically build my my like I talked about earlier, my arsenal of what I was learning from these other traders and I started being uh trying to figure out how I could apply that to computer trading.

Uh, and you know, uh from there I started just having the ideas and I just started seeing the market just so differently when I could actually like see it as opposed in the pit, whereas like I couldn't like see price action. I couldn't see anything. And I just always felt lost. Like I was just in there and just like the world was spinning around me. Uh so that lasted that account lasted me about a year, but I didn't really lose money. I just got expensed out.

And then I went through twenty five thousand again. Which was like, Okay, I survived, I took a couple of checks, I worked in the pit, now I'm a year and a half in and I feel like, Hey man, I'm ready to go. Like this has gotta be it and Uh I just was just hit a soft patch again and I just couldn't make money. I had to pay make sure I paid for my seat leases and next thing you know, I'm back knocking on the door going, I'm out of money again.

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So to just so I understood that right, you ran through the second twenty five thousand dollars that was given to you by one of your mentors on the floor. Yeah. Um, and that was lost due to mainly because of ex expenses and operating costs. Is that right? Yeah, you know really what li I basically broke even trading and I lost the money over my seat lease had dropped dramatically. I'd actually had made money that year trading and it wasn't much.

Uh but it was enough to to pay expenses. I took some money out. Um I was giving him back maybe a couple hundred dollars at a time, but you know, I had to survive and eat. Uh and so it was just like just basically I was able to live off of it, but then towards the end of that year I hit a soft patch. Uh and it just was

You know, I was just kind of j exactly. I just got expensed out. Just life expenses, trading expenses, it was just kind of like, you know, it was it. It was out of out of capital. Right, right. So I mean you were kind of back to square one again in in some ways, where did you turn from there? Like where'd the how'd you get refunded from from that point on?

Well, I went to him because now I owe him twenty five thousand. So i i at the time you're going, Okay, uh my family didn't have the kind of money to just, you know, write me a check for twenty five grand again. So ultimately what did I do? I went back to him. I I figured at this point, you know, I I I I told him, you know, he had known that it was coming to an end as well. And he's like, Listen, I'm gonna give you twenty five thousand dollars more And we'll see how it goes.

Okay. Uh and he's like, That's it, you're done. I can't do any more for you. Uh obviously at that point I was like, Okay, great, you know. I'm thinking to myself, Well, okay, let's do this. Um, and Well, uh lo and behold, I went back in, I did re I started off really well, I started paying them back. Uh and all of a sudden his market started getting really busy and I got clipped again.

And now this time, instead of getting expensed out, I basically, you know, crapped out again. Uh so now I'm down to um blowing through that money uh and I was towards the end of a six month lease again and I'm going, Well, this is a problem

I I'm out of business again. I mean I literally at that point was going through like massive anxiety going, I just cannot believe this is happening to me again. This is incredible. At this point in time now I've already like developed my own indicator. I've developed like a style. I felt I was doing really well. Uh I actually had had a couple days where I was making, you know, in the thousands of dollars, which prior to that was really not happening for me. Uh and then ultimately

You know, I you know, I stepped out a little bit and I got clipped. I mean, there's just no there was no other way to say it. I just lost, you know, I just blew up. And, you know, I just remember him kind of flipping out on me and be like, What are you doing? You're losing too much and it was just like, you know, I felt it was there at my fingertips to just take it down.

And, you know and it just it didn't happen, you know. So at that point it it started to get uh, you know, m where I was just like, What do I do? Yeah, yeah, so... Just to back up a little bit, why do you think it was that uh this this guy who was mentoring you at the time, why did he give you fifty thousand dollars? I mean, that's that's pretty generous. I mean, most people wouldn't feel comfortable doing that, why do you think it was that he gave you that money? He said it was a mitzvah.

Um he was a Jewish guy. We had become really close friends. Uh he said to me, those were his exact words. I um he's like, This is a mitzvah. Uh I mean this was s also seventeen years ago I believe that was the exact saying that he used, but uh I remember and he's like he basically felt that by helping me it was good karma. Uh and you know, he had kids. I was good with his kids, you know, I was friends with them. Uh we had a good relationship.

And I worked so closely with him that I think that he was looking at me uh as like, you know, he he was trying to help me. I mean, he was doing good by this. You know, and after I had lost the twenty five thousand now, you remember I I know I know that seems like a lot of money and you're looking at a guy who probably on a monthly basis, I mean to put it in a sum perspective, uh was you know, he was five hundred thousand a month. three to five hundred thousand a month earner.

Um so not to say that he's just giving money away and not that I was disrespecting the twenty five thousand, that's not what I mean. But it was like at you know, for the time i i it's like th it was a bubble at the at the Merck, you know, and and at the time I think that

Um it made sense. Let's put it that way, because they were making so much money, it was still very busy. That he looked at it as like fifty grand, I can deal with this. You know, originally when we had also talked the twenty five thousand, um

I remember sitting down with him and and the and and the firm owner was like, Maybe you should give him fifty, markets are busy. So he was like, Let's give him I'll give him twenty five to see how this goes. So it was somewhat set up like that. But after that final twenty five and after I had gone through it

You know, at that point he's like, listen, you're gonna have to just, you know, figure this out. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. So I mean you've pretty much burnt through seventy five grand at this point. I mean, where was your head at? during this time'cause I mean you're still uh from what I presume in your, you know, mid twenties, young twenties.

Where was your head at? Did you ever were you ever inclined to just sort of throw in the towel and move on to something else or were you still keen to just keep pouring money into this until it actually finally worked for you? Well, first of all I was not willing to accept that I couldn't do it because I I I l I compare it to like I started playing golf in my thirties and I look back at it, I find it a lot like a lot like golf. And anybody that's played a sport or done something to where

you know, similar to golf where you have this moment of success where like you see you see the vision that you can do it. Like I believed that I can do it. And I felt that I had, you know, grown uh in just that short amount of time. to having a really solid plan. I created my own indicator. I had, you know, I I felt really strong mindset and rules. I I I felt like I had all the tools and the willingness to put myself out there and do it.

But, you know, now let's talk about the downsides what I was feeling. Uh it was massive anxiety. Uh, you know, I had a girlfriend who's now my wife, uh, who would watch me go through this. I didn't leave, I didn't go out because I didn't have any money. So basically twenty one to twenty three for me was I did nothing. You know, a lot of kids were going to college and you know, partying, having fun. I didn't do that.

I stayed home, I went home and you know it was funny at the time uh I was watching the show Sopranos and I'm some of you probably know it, some of you probably don't, but you know it was funny. I used to watch it on Sunday nights. And I remember Tony would have the anxiety and he'd blow into the paper bag and he'd stand there and he would look like he was gonna fall over and I'm like, Man, that's exactly how I feel. I I literally was suffering from anxiety.

because of the pressure that I felt on myself. I was sick that I was out of my twenty five thousand. I I'll now owe him fifty grand, which I'm just like, you gotta be kidding me, I owe this guy fifty thousand dollars. It's like

Who knows how long it's gonna take for me to pay him back if I go back to working. You know, so I was just like uh you know, my parents are saying maybe you should get a job and you're just like, you know, all these things going through my mind. But to tell you the truth I Uh I just sat back and I just said, okay, you know, I looked myself in the mirror and just like, well, who do you want to be? I mean, is this what it is? Is this how it ends?

And I it's just unacceptable to me. I mean, people that know me on a personal level know that I'm a I'm a fighter like that and I will I won't stop and until I get it right. And I you know, I think that's what I learned so much about myself. And that takes me kind of to where the next

you know, how all of a sudden things turned around uh uh for me. So um we can get into that next if you'd want. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'd love to hear about that. So I mean tell us a little bit about what was your your turning point as a trader.

So that was really it. I think that I had it I had a l I had to see, you had to have a uh a time period where once you were done paying your seat lease and if you didn't continue to sign your seat lease that you were gonna lose your seat. Now at the time there was no seats available. So it's like if I didn't get money right away to be able to go in and get a seat lease.

There was no way I was even gonna be able to trade. And then I was gonna have to possibly go through like pay this extra fee to get back in membership. So it was basically panic mode for me at that point. Uh what do I do to get back in? And, you know, once again it was I had a little bit of time because I had to leave just enough money in there again to pay my seat lease. And it was just uh, you know, and I was looking at this going, well, where do I go? Parents wasn't an option. Um, my aunt.

My aunt Flo. Um she was like a grandmother to me. Uh she was someone who I just, you know, I I shared a lot with her. She was, you know, just we were very close. And I went to her and I said, Look it, uh you know, hey, you know, mom and dad can't do this for me. I I've went through this amount of money. I know it's probably the worst investment you're ever gonna make. She had just retired. Uh I'm like, but Aunt, listen to me. Just I need ten grand.

I need ten grand because if I don't get this money and I don't go back, it's over for me. I really don't know what I was gonna do. And I just remember just being just like I I felt so vulnerable but yet so ready to do this in the same moment that it was like I you know, I knew it was a total gamble. I know that she knew that too, but luckily you have family that believes in you.

uh and can give you that opportunity. So she goes to the bank with me'cause I needed it basically that day. I waited till the last minute to ask her because At that moment it was just like I didn't wanna do it. I didn't want to do it. It was m it made me sick thinking I had to do it. But I did it.

And from that point I went in and I just had like this burst of energy and like I remember my first day back. Now I was actually pretty lucky too um that when I had come back in. So now I had to go to my clearing firm. And this is what's w some of the beauties of being on the trading floor is that you have good people and you know people. Like the business has become so not personal like it used to be.

I knew I had so many clearing member friends that I could go to and say, Hey, you know, uh whatever, I got ten grand. Like I went to my clearing firm to whom which I owed a great deal. uh uh to this day for letting me come back in for ten thousand dollars. And I said, look, it I'm gonna trade the E mini S P.

Uh, you know, I'm gonna trade it. I'm gonna this is how much I'm gonna risk per day. I sat down with the two owners at the firm and they were like they just looked they looked at me, they looked at each other, and they said, we'll let you do it. Don't screw it up. And they said it a in a little bit different of a way, right? Here's me walking out of the office going, Okay. I mean, this is it. I remember getting it, going back in there. And

At the time I was still clerking in the pit with my trading jacket on, uh, for my brother, who actually took all my old guys. Uh, I was helping him. He was giving me an extra guy just so I could make ends meet to survive. And ultimately,

Uh, you know, I star I was trading the opens. I started making a little bit of money here and there. So all of a sudden, you know, boom, bang, bing. I mean, long story short, six months later, uh, I was able to buy a seat. Seats were two hundred and twenty thousand. I didn't have all of it. But I gave my answer ten grand back.

I gave Louis his fifty grand back. This is in six months, which I look back at it and still think it's incredible that it yeah. I feel so lucky and blessed that it happened. But I just started catching on and Next thing you know, I had the ability to put down um almost half a receipt. A friend of mine had to give me a little bit of extra money uh so I could leave some money in my trading account.

And I went to the firm, they lent me the other half and I bought a seat for two hundred and twenty grand. Uh, and away I went. I mean, you know, I mean I had Yeah, I just started it just like all of a sudden I just got dialed in and I know that we're gonna talk more about that, but that's That's ultimately, you know, in a nutshell what happened. So it just turned around just like that.

Okay. So I mean what was it that what did you change? Like why did it all of a sudden things start clicking for you? Were you doing anything different? Like what was Was there anything noticeably or significantly different that you were implementing? My risk management. I became extremely efficient at managing risk. And how did I do that? Well What I started to figure out was Okay, I start my position small.

goes if uh if it starts to go my way, I would potentially add. If it started to go back against me, I would scratch. I basically would always start my position at twenty-five to you know, maybe thirty-five percent of what I was gonna sell. So let's just say I was gonna sell three. I'd sell one, then I'd sell one, then I'd sell one. Before I would just sell three, and then I'd buy three. So what I started to do was basically get in small at my initial area.

And then I would be quick to add, quick to cover. And I started to be able to massage my areas we basically was what I was doing. So if I wanted to s sell one or buy one at a specific level, I'd buy one, I'd watch it sit there a little bit, then I'd buy another one, then I'd buy another one, then I'd go my way, then I'd sell one, then it would sit there and then I would

Sell another one out and then I'd keep one. And I would try to I'd work that. So what I started to do was once I started getting really comfortable doing that, I started with two, then I went to four, then I went to six. And I started testing myself when I was up money. So what I started to do was when I was up money, I would start to press a little. I'd press a little bit.

And then the next day I'd press a little bit more. You know, I'd be up eight hundred, I'd risk three hundred, go up five hundred. I'd be up nine hundred, I'd risk four hundred, I'd go up five hundred.

You know, I'd be up six hundred, I'd risk one hundred, I'd go up five hundred. I'd always try to go up five hundred bucks. Then one day you hit'em for twelve hundred and you're like, hmm, I got seven hundred bucks of risk now. So what I would do was now my downside was only five hundred bucks a day. So if I hit that five hundred, I'm done. But when I started getting up more than five hundred, I'd play with that money and I started to press.

And then I'd press a little bit more. So then all of a sudden I'd trade a little bit bigger. So when I was hot, I'd be pressing. When I was cold, I'd if I if I started off my winning, my first trade was a loser, it would only be on a third of my position. So when I was finally getting into a full position, it'd already be partially my way, so I learned how to scratch or get out of a portion of that position. And I would always constantly keep keep myself small, get back small.

Uh and I did that and I was able to escalate that rather quickly. Um I would say about I would say within I don't remember exactly, but let's just call it within Two months. I was already I went from trading I typically traded under five lots majority of that time prior to that.

And I went from like ten thousand, I remember it was like twenty something thousand, uh, just by trading like between four and six lots. I was just basic basically making five hundred to seven hundred uh on a in in a day over about a month and a half. And I remember getting my account just over twenty grand. Uh and I was like, okay. And remember I wasn't taking money out because I was working on the floor, was finally able to build it.

So what I started to do was I started just up my size a little bit. So I remember within that span now I had worked my way up. I did my first fifty lot. And I remember my first fifty lot. And it was just like I bought five. I bought five more. Then I bought ten more. And these are all within a couple of ticks. Then I want one tick my way again. And then I bought twenty.

And I was like, okay, now I'm long 40. And then I bought 10 more. I remember seeing it long fifty. I'm like, if this thing doesn't go my way, one tick right away, I'm gonna turn around and sell it. And one one take my way, two ticks against me, boom, I turned around and sold fifty and I was like, Okay Wasn't so bad. I did it. I felt like a sense of like I can do this. I can trade 50 lives.

You know, I didn't go right back into it, but I continued to test the limits to see how I would feel. So I started like playing with my emotions. Okay, fifty f then all of a sudden when I had fifty on, ten feel felt more comfortable, more more controllable. And that's how I slowly built it up. And, you know, you know, eventually I was able to build it up to to some real size and um You know, but that's that's how it started.

You know, and and I always say to people, it's like I was kind of high frequency

before high frequency trading because that's how I would trade. I'd look at my statement and we would kinda laugh. Like I go into the in into the area and at the time I mean, the think about this, that we didn't e they did an email statement, so I had to pick'em up in the bin and all you had to do is look in the bin And then you knew who Delhi's statement was'cause it was the biggest one'cause I would trade like every price. Now I hit a lot of commissions.

And that was definitely affecting me, but I was winning more frequently. So uh and at the time, y you know, I had like I said, uh I was still leasing a seat, so the costs weren't that high, but th they definitely were a factor. But the bigger I got, the less factor that they became.

Mm-mm. Okay. Very interesting. So I know I'm not sure over what time period, but you grew that account up to, you know, seven figures and beyond. What happened from that point on? I I I believe somewhere between where we're at now to that point you hit another rough patch where things sort of started to turn south again for you. Uh can you run us through that a little bit and tell us a little bit about what happened?

Well, I actually went on a very long stretch of doing well. I mean I I I stayed I did very well um for years. I was actually, you know, able to clear a million in a year probably

I I would say within uh a few years I had several six figure years and then I had I had surpassed a million in a year as well. Uh and I was rocking and rolling, you know, and then It basically it got to the uh I I ended up getting to a point where and it's interesting, my my worst quarter the worst quarter of my career, the worst year of my career was the best start. of any quarter or any month that I had ever had, which was insane to think that way, but it was the first week of the year.

And I had made two hundred thousand that we And I remember looking back at it. And going sh I mean, look it. I just made You know, I made well over a million the prior year. I'm going, this is I'm making two, three, four million this year. It's there. I'm there. I'm there, man. You know, got money in the bank. I'm not even thirty yet. I'm thinking to myself, that's it. I I got this. Bam. I dropped like five hundred grand the next day.

Pff probably you know, two, three months. It's I kinda try to blur it out, but um yeah, and it it just That to me was a rude awakening because at that moment I was like, Okay. Uh and I remember one of my trader friends coming up to me. It was he was a good friend of mine. He's like, Don't chase it, man. He's like, You chase it, you can be chasing it all year. He's like, Come back in. Go back to what you do.

And to be honest with you, I never recovered the whole year. I ended up losing that year. And it was like it's incredible to think that that that rough patch really kind of also set the tone for kind of how I became a trader later uh in my career because that was the moment kind of where things started to change, I think, in the industry as well, where, you know, the games

uh was started to change a little bit. You know, like I said, I was uh I was trading so much and so actively that that kind of style was now not working as well. You know, I moved the book in the S P uh in in my earlier days.

I mean there'd be a hundred on the bid, I'd take the whole hundred out. I mean it was you know, there was two hundred on the bid, I'd take the whole two hundred out. And they would react off of what I was doing. I was probably more of a market maker than I was, you know, anything because

Basically, you know, and and and uh a a lot of times my orders, you know, that were bigger than the bid and offer on the book. So I I was able to kind of also uh as I would put an order in, the market would move off of what I was doing. And then suddenly th you know, like I said, uh I had a really good stretch and then I remember I had one vacation. I had bought another home, which was not my third home. Um and and I remember everyone was like, Slow down man. Listen, you're doing great.

You know, I'm driving uh ML sixty three AMG, I'm thinking to myself, there's just you know, come on.

I th eagle definitely got in the way for it for me and then I got brought back in really quick um'cause my expenses now were just high for just everything, you know, lifestyle expenses. And You know, I think that, you know, what ultimately uh at this point, uh I'm trying to figure out what uh you know, where we go from here, like kind of uh what what my life was like at that point was just kind of like uh

The game was changing and I was not adapting to the game. That's that's the point I'm trying to get at. It was like all of a sudden I felt like I was at my pinnacle, like if things were only going to explode for me, but then all of a sudden the game was changing and I was just kind of ignoring the fact that the market was changing and I was trying to force my will upon what was working for me on the market and the market just kept taking. And then I couldn't like get back.

and get back to where I was. I just kept fighting it. I'd have good stretches, then I'd give it back again. I'd have good stretches, then I'd give it back again. And I was just like, like, I was like, what's happening here? Um and I think that's that was another um turning point in my career where I'm like, hey, maybe what I'm doing isn't going to work forever. Like, okay, wake up call here. Um, so that was that moment.

So I know we're gonna jump forward a few years now um and probably skip a little bit of your story out, but what's your style of trading like today? I mean of obviously you're no longer trading in the pit. And you're now behind a screen. What's your style of trading like today? What's it sort of developed into and what are the kind of opportunities that you seek to take advantage of today? Oh now I'm one to five trades a day, maybe a week.

I've went from super high frequency to super low frequency. And that took me, I think after that moment I just talked about, where I still like it still troubles me to talk about it because I'm pissed at myself for not recognizing change. uh even though I felt it was happening because I was doing the same things. But it it's like the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and is expecting a different result. Uh and

It basically that's what I was driving myself insane, thinking that what had got me to where I was was going to continue over. So I just totally s I sat back. fortunate enough to be able to, you know, in a financial position to be able to sit back and say Okay, you know, figure this out. And what I started to do was basically, you know, I I was going back and analyzing my trades. Like where am I going wrong? And I started to realize that the over trading I used to do.

So it was the days I traded more, I was losing more, or it was costing me more. The days I was trading less, I was more efficient. So I started to recognize that efficiency had to change uh and no longer the high frequency type person that I was. Uh was was going to work. So I and I had the same indicator and I had the same basically style, but what I started to do was I started to learn about something called confirmation that I think really helped me.

um slow the pace down. I started focusing more on preparation. I started focusing more on okay, you need more than one reason to trade. And that all of a sudden created patience for me. And I realized to to that I could focus my energy on an area where there was more confirmation instead of trying to feel out every area and see if the market was just gonna pay me. So uh th that was the big transition. So preparation became a bigger part.

uh and I would spend more time preparing. What levels are important to me? Why is this level important to me? And I would work my way back weekly, daily, sixty minute, and then I'd look at my one minute charge instrument to execute. And then I would say one minute had to have confirmation coinciding with a sixty minute or a daily, and then that's how it would trigger a trade.

So at that point now I'm like going and here's me basically with my hand on the mouse going, I I wanna trade, I wanna trade, I couldn't like it but yet it didn't reach what I wanted it to reach. Um so that was like that next it's like I had to like relearn who I was. I mean it was just I and but because I had you know my own indicator that I believed in. I had seen it work. Um and I had the experience of knowing that

Uh I've seen other people change and by seeing it throughout the years of watching, you know, great pit traders that I'm like, okay, this is what it is. So now either make the change otherwise You're never going to get to where you want. And and that's how I slowly started turning things around.

No, that's really interesting. So I'd like to get a little bit more technical about what are these kind of one to five trades that you're watching for that you're, you know, seeking to take advantage of during any given week. And, you know, more about what levels you define to be important, like how do you determine what are important levels to watch for and that sort of thing.

Well, okay. So what I do is, well, I have an indicator I created, I call it beacon, but what I look at is I believe that bigger picture trend is going to obviously supersede short-term trade decisions.

So what I started to look at was what's happening on my bigger picture indicator. Uh and I would say, okay, how do I determine a level? Well, you know, we we have a strategy that we or an indicator that we use that determines levels. So what I look for It is not only in the market that I'm trading that level, I look forward to see what market is correlating with or against us that's hitting a level at the same time we are. W for example.

Let's just say you're comparing well let's make it easy first. Let's say I'm comparing SP Dow and NASDAQ. Every morning I put up three 60-minute charts of those markets. And I look to see where they are relative to the same indicator. So whether you're using my indicator or you're using your own indicator, that's entirely, you know, doesn't matter, right? Because it's like if I'm looking at a ten day moving average.

I wanna see where everybody is on a ten day moving average. Is an Asdaq stronger? Is an Nasdaq weaker? And where's the S and P uh Dow come into play? If they're all hitting the ten day moving average at the same time. Well guess what? That's that's telling me that the reaction when the indices work together is going to be a stronger reaction. If one's way above and one's well below, and I look at us in the S P, which I primarily trade.

And we're sitting there getting pushed and pulled in these different directions, I then know that we could probably be choppy and we're gonna get pushed and pulled and maybe the Nasdaq leads for a little bit and then maybe it's the Dow. You could do the same thing for currencies. I look at the dollar. What's the dollar doing?

You know, sometimes the dollar moves against gold, a lot of times it moves against euro. So what I do is I take the same exact indicator that I'm going to use on the dollar uh and I compare it to the gold. So I don't compare a chart to see I don't compare a chart to see what the the pattern looks like. Because to me, a pattern in the past.

was what had happened, but where they are, what the indicator now shows you where they are at this point, where are they on a relative basis? That's how I more determined correlation. So I don't The pattern could be because correlations work till they don't. So it's like if I say, Oh, look at this, it's correlating perfectly with or against it. I can't really market against it. So when they're both at an area, for example, let's just say the the dollar rallies

and the dollar just hit, you know, a thirty eight back fib or whatever. And I did that same exact fib from a recent high or low. uh i in the gold and they're hitting thirty eight back to the downside or something like that, you know. Just I'm trying to give you an explain an example of saying that I'm comparing them by using the same indicator in the same time period and one is correlating, one is going uh down, the other one's going up, but they're hitting them at the same time.

I know that that at that moment i if there's going to be a reaction, it should happen at that moment. If it's if they're not hitting things at the same time, whether they're correlating with or against each other, there is going to be a less reactive

uh you know, moment in the market. So you're going to r you're going to see slippage. So when I see things that are aligning up that way, I come into my trading day and now go, okay, now I look at my short term charts and go, aha. I got a buy set up on my in my on my one minute

Gold and gold and go and the dollars hitting resistance the same time gold is hitting support, that's a trade I will go in and put risk on. Because at that moment, what's happening outside of the market I'm trading is helping my market.

So and I compare them all in the same t same tame same uh time frames. This way I have the ability to, you know, like I said, match everything equally. So does that make sense? Am I am I getting across my point of how how I do that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, this is good. This is good.

I'd like to ask you a little bit more about the indicator that you use. Um you also said right at the beginning that you were using or you developed your own indicator while you were still uh trading on the pit. Is this the same indicator uh the beacon that you use today. Absolutely. Um it's it's the exact same indicator. I have really almost made no tweaks, probably in the last ten years. I don't think I've really made much tweaks to it. Uh and it it's basically a roadmap of

uh of support and resistance lines that that I believe is a forward-thinking indicator. See, I learned that when I was developing indicators uh you know way back when uh it was basically looking at I was looking at all the indicators and saying they're only telling me what happened. They never tell me what they think can happen. And I just felt that that to be so weird. I'm like, why is everything saying this is what happened?

So when you look back at everything you look at on your chart, it's like this is what's happened. And I would say, great, but what do you think could happen? So what I started to do was I started to put together a couple of ideas and I said, you know, and I and I hired a programmer and I said, i i i if this happens in the market

I want to know what happens after I see this happen. And they'd be like, okay, and they go in and they program it. Like, okay, well, that's interesting. Well, I did that trial by error. And I looked at a couple of other things. you know, a couple of o other of existing indicators to kinda just, you know, get a feel of how they had worked and you know, just trying to like figure out how I can create something that that went

forward as uh uh from what just happened and gave me a visual because I'm a very visual person, so I like to see what support resistance could be and I like them to be dynamic. I hate coming into a day and saying Okay, this is support, this is resistance, and just assume I'm going to trade off of that. What I like to do is I like that for my planning.

But planning and trading doesn't always work that way. It's not like planning a vacation. Hey, we're a plan, we're gonna leave, we're gonna go on the plane, we're gonna do this. Well, you know, guess what? All of a sudden you might be going to a different airport or you might be going by train one day or you might be doing something differently. You have to adapt as to how you're going to get there.

So what I did was I started putting it on short-term indicators to confirm that the longer term indication was supported. So what I wanted to do was to say, hey, in my preparation, this is a level to watch. So when that when it came to it, I'm not just going, I'm buying them or I'm selling them and just work a stop and hope it works.

Because it to me that's not trading, that's just saying, Hey, this is a level, go trade it, figure it out. What I wanted to do was to be able to say, um, when it gets there, do you agree with the with the longer term or do you disagree?

Right? I look at with anything you do in life, right? I i i i if you're going to do something and I don't know if anybody's married out there. I mean I know a lot of guys are married or women that are listening to this. And I'm married. I know when I ask my wife a question And she agrees with me. Well that answer makes it makes it a lot easier to move forward what I'm doing.

So that's confirmation for me. If my wife says, nah, I'm not sure about that, then I question what I'm doing. You know, so we don't just say we're going to do something, we discuss it, we have a confirmation, and then we do it. Or we don't do it. So that's why I like to overlay short term charts. over 60 minute charts to say do you confirm do you agree with what my preparation was and if it doesn't then i I don't have to trade it and if it does then I do it and I believe in it and I go after

Got it, got it, okay. So do you use any other indicators um in combination with the beacon? Yes, I use MACD. I tweaked that a little bit as well and I use stochastic. I like divergence because divergence

See people look at a lot of people will go, Oh well divergence, but divergence what's what I like about divergence is it doesn't help you pick the low and it doesn't help you pick the high. It helps you on retests. So when you're retesting areas See I'm a big believer that I don't like to be the first one in.

Because I've learned in my experience, every time I'm the first one in, I'm usually the first one to get out and I miss the big move. So when I'm the second one in or the third one in on the retest, that's when I really step in and pound them. Because that's when I'm like, nobody believes in it anymore. And that's when I have the strongest belief. And so divergence helps me look at the market and say, on a retest, do you believe it? Is it is it agreeing with me?

And if it's not, then maybe I trade it smaller. If divergence is there, then I say yes and I agree with it. So that's really all I use. um besides my indicator. Okay. So obviously the beacon indicator has been incredibly helpful for you. Would you suggest that perhaps other traders give some thought to maybe developing indicators to like visually help them? Even if they don't use them as maybe like a

you know, a standalone system on their own, but just something that they can actually visualize and actually see. Um, you know, i is that something you'd cons you'd suggest other traders at least give a little thought to? One hundred percent. Why sit back and Will allow yourself to, you know, be mediocre when you can be when you can be great. That's the way I look at it. I look at it and go, why am I gonna sit there if I'm not making money with these indicators, why am I going to sit there

And just assume that these indicators are going to work for me. And I also say, let's just say I'm not I'm no programmer. So I would say obviously and if you if you can get a programmer, you have an idea, you write it up, you work with them, great. If you can't and you don't have the money and you still want to do it, tweak your indicators. Tweak the ones that you have. Look at them in different ways. Look and see what happens after these situations.

and capitalize on fewer situations as opposed to multiple situations. I mean one of my pet peeves is like people look at, oh did you see the rising wedge, the uptrend, the head and shoulders. It's like, man, there's no way I could capitalize on all of those. I like to capitalize on a few things that I see.

So it's like look at the indicators that work. If you find an i so a lot of people will say, Well, I have I I love the when people will tell me, Well, these indicators I have, they work, right? Um and I always say, Okay, well greater, how are you doing with them? Um and they say, Well, I'm not there yet, but I know I can get there.

Well that's great, but how are you approaching it? Like see I'm a firm believer in can in the only everyone goes, I want to get consistency. Well, how do you get consistency? Well, you get consistency by consistently doing

the the trades that you want to do. You don't get consistent by buying an uptrend one day, you know, selling a downtrend the next day, buying a fib the next day, you know, not doing the fib the next day. So it's like if you're gonna trade thirty eight back or if you're gonna do you know, if you're gonna trade trend lines, if you're gonna do this, if you're gonna do that, be consistent with your trades because then you will master that look and you will be able to

ch you know, trade that look. So it's not really I don't look at it as having to create an indicator. I I I think if you can, if you have, you know, the the you know the willingness to do that, great. I'm all for it. If you don't, I don't think that there it's a bad thing to be able to look at indicators and develop your inter interpretation on how to trade those indicators.

Mm-hmm. Okay. Okay. No, that's a really great answer, Anthony. So Let's uh let's wind this down. Um I've got one last question for you and that's pretty much do you have any final words? or anything you'd like to pass on to other traders listening. I know, you know, you've obviously been through quite a roller coaster journey yourself. Are there any lessons you'd like to pass on that might be helpful to anyone listening to this podcast right now?

I I think the most important thing for traders to to to really understand is loss. I think it's the hardest thing. I think that People come into this like myself with expectations to make money. And I know from a lot of your guests,'cause I've listened to your shows in the past, which are great by the way, I think that a lot of good traders will say this. But the one thing that I I believe is most important is is understanding how to manage your risk. That's what changed my life.

That's how I changed everything. And having a set of rules that are like instincts to you. uh not having a set of rules that you have to look at on a piece of paper. Like I'm a firm believer that especially in the futures markets, you can't be going back and trying to you have too many things in your head, you're going to struggle. Uh learn how to manage your risk.

Understand that loss is part of the business and you will be able to heal from your loss. I come in every day and I know how much I'm gonna risk per day. I know what I'm going to risk. per trade, I know how much I'm going to risk per month. And at that point, the worst thing that happened is guess what? I lose that risk. So I already know it going into it. So that just it clears through everything, you know, it it helps me focus on what I'm doing.

And it helps you focus on what's important, the market. Uh I've had so many young traders come to me. And the one thing that they just can't get past is when they say, Well, what should I be focusing on, Anthony Anthony? And I'm like, protecting the downside.

I said, you need to learn how to lose before you could win. And people literally look at me and they think I'm crazy by saying, Learn how to lose before you could win because nobody comes in the mindset nobody comes into trading with the mindset that I need to learn how to lose. It just doesn't even sound right. Like it'cause nobody wants to. But when you go into it with that mindset, something changes. At least it did for me. That when I came in knowing that

Um my number one goal was to manage risk, keep a very small, uh instinctual set of trading rules. I was able to free up all of the emotion and go after the market.

Very well said, very well said, and a nice way to take us out. I mean, like a lot of the things you said there um are so true, but they're also very counterintuitive to what you'd expect, you know, um as a trader. So Anyway, Anthony, where can listeners go to find out more about you? Well two places. Futures Radio Show dot com. I host a podcast where we talk about the markets on a week to week basis, what's happening uh in the industry. We'll talk about

anything from technicals to fundamentals about what's happening that week in the market. So you can go to futuresradio show dot com. That's free for all traders. And also beacintrader.com. That is my membership site. uh where traders can come in and take a trial. Hear me on the mic. I'm on the mic Monday through Thursday. Uh I talk for an hour uh every morning about what my outlook is

for the futures markets and we talk about S and P, Nasdaq, Dow, Gold, Euro. I'll talk a little bit of treasuries and uh lately I've been talking about the yen. Okay, okay. And you're also on Twitter as well, I believe. Yes, Twitter at Anthony Crudelli. Uh and and probably no one knows how to spell my last name, but it's C R U D E L E.

Uh everyone always spells it D E L L I. Uh but yeah, at Anthony Crudelli uh on Twitter. Awesome, awesome. Good stuff. Well it's been an absolute blast having you on, Anthony. I've really enjoyed our conversation. So Thank you very much. And I'll put all those links you mentioned in the show notes at chatwithraders.com as well. So yeah, once again, I really appreciate you coming on, man. Thank you very much.

Thank you for having me, Aaron. And I just want to say before I let you go, you're doing an excellent job here. I really am a fan of what you are doing. And I think that all traders should definitely listen to your podcast. Uh and I appreciate that. Oh, that's awesome, man. Very cool. Very cool to hear. So thanks for the kind words. You've reached the end of this episode of Chat with Traders, but rest assured there are more. way soon.