073: Charlie Bathgate – What to Emulate From Pro Traders, Humility, Psychology and Biohacking

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How you doing folks? I'm Aaron Frierfield and it's so good to have you listening. My guest on the podcast for this episode, number 73, is Charlie Bathgate. Trading has been a part of Charlie's life since as far back as he can remember, and that's because his father was an options market maker. Plus his brothers and sister are working major roles in the industry too.

Today Charlie is a partner and the CEO of two operations, Sangluchi and Flamerian. Sangluci being the trader education side and Flamerian being a hedge fund which mostly consists of automated traders. We had a really interesting conversation speaking about Charlie's observations from working with and evaluating traders.

why humility is key and what it means to own your strategy. Also Charlie shares great insight on the subjects of psychology, biohacking and innovative technology and how it can benefit traders. Now just to echo a couple of things I mentioned last week. So I've recently opened a Facebook group for Chatwith Traders. It's completely free to join and it's somewhere that you can connect with other traders and listeners of this podcast. So go to chatwithraders.com forward slash Facebook.

Uh that'll redirect you straight to the actual group on Facebook. Just hit the join button and I'll of course let you in. And the other thing is the free guide which I've just released. It's titled The Comprehensive Guide to Trading Mentorship. And it explains pretty much all you need to know about how to connect with a mentor. So to get a copy, just go to chatwithraders.com forward slash mentor. I think it'll probably take you around about ten to fifteen minutes to read from cover to cover.

U and again if you want to grab a copy, chatwithraders.com forward slash mentor. All right, here is my interview with Charlie Bathgate, this week's guest from NYC. Charlie Bathgate, what's up man? How you doing?

Aaron, what's up man? Thanks for having me. No trouble whatsoever. It's good to have you on and thanks a lot for doing this. So I guess we should point out right at the beginning, just to save any confusion for the guys listening, you yourself are not a trader, but you're in an interesting position where you're surrounded by traders each and every day and you know the industry very well.

uh and you're also very big on the psychology and technology areas of trading, uh which we're gonna get into in just a bit. But for now though, let's hear about your background and how you got to where you are now.

So when did you become aware of financial markets and what actually got you interested in the field? Uh that's a great question. Um so I became aware of the financial markets pretty much I think when I uh had, you know, an awareness of

I guess consciousness of the world. Um my f my dad was a trader growing up and uh he was a market maker options market maker and um, you know, a a trader um And he looking at the he he's a pretty emotional guy and he had emotional swings, um, actually some some, you know, pretty

um, considerable mental health issues that that at certain times came about because of the the swings in the markets and so You know, I think through um indirectly through him and my experience with him and and, you know, his life, uh, that's when

I drew a cause and effect and said, Hey, there's this thing called the markets that is really, you know, affecting my dad but that he was also, you know, obsessed with and uh that he definitely passed that that passion on to me. Uh so I started going to work with him. He had a a small broker dealer based out of Denver, um, Colorado. And I started going to work with him when I was really young.

two older brothers, uh we we all did the same thing. So I was pretty much surrounded by traders. Um you know, and and also, you know, his his uh company they raised money for for small companies as well. They did some IPOs and whatnot. So entrepreneurs and traders, I was just surrounded by them from from very young age. So Uh by the time I got to college, uh I really felt like I had spent uh you know, I'd literally spent, you know, ten, fifteen years um just

completely absorbed in in the markets. So that's very cool. That's very cool. And you mentioned that um your two brothers also, you know, used to go to work with your dad as well. Are they involved in the industry in any way? Yeah, yeah, they are. As is my my little sister. Uh my oldest brother does uh third party marketing for for hedge funds, so very large.

institutional um funds, you know, five hundred million to a couple of billion, he helps raise the money. And uh my other brother is uh is an analyst at uh at a large mutual fund. Uh he's the he's the math major of the of the family. So Uh he's got a C F A, very smart dude. Um makes me makes me feel like shit about myself every once in a while, but that's what older brothers are there for.

Right, okay. So what did you what did you study at college? Walk us through um sort of life before I guess from college through to where you got now. Like what was fill us in on that gap. Yeah, so I went to uh I went to Duke. I graduated with degrees in English and they they don't have a business degree, it's a certificate, but you know, pretty much a a a double major in English and business and um

You know, this was pre uh crash. So I graduated in 2009. So uh 2000, it was fall of two thousand eight. I'll never forget my friend going up to do interviews up in New York for um, you know, a job after graduation and he was up there the day Lehman failed. And we were all kind of in our bubble, you know, in college and you know, pretty much. only concerned with ourselves and not what's going on with the rest of the world and he came back and said, guys, like you know, the world was

falling apart of there. I just saw grown men, you know, crying with boxes of stuff in their arms on the street. And we were like, whoa. Um and so You know, I think and also looking at a lot of my friends who had gone up into investment banking, that that was really if you were going into finance coming out of um out of Duke, it was it was almost all investment banking. Very, very few guys went into trading.

And I just saw that they were working insane hours. You know, yeah, they were making really good money, but y it just didn't I just didn't think I'd I could even do it. I I was like I don't think I could work a hundred hour weeks for something that I don't even really care that much about. So Yeah, I ended up saying, All right, I'm gonna take a completely different path. I had always had an interest in film, um and uh in writing and

in production and just sort of the film industry. So I said I'm gonna, you know, kinda do the exact opposite. I went out to Los Angeles, uh I started working in in writing and production and in film. Uh got a chance to work for uh one of the

one of the biggest directors out there, a guy named Gore Varbinsky, he did like Pirates of the Caribbean and the Ring and stuff and uh got a lot of cool experience there. And then I I paired up with a film producer, um, this woman who became my mentor, uh, who kind of a

second mother to me, um, and she was starting a film fund. She was raising fifty million dollars to to pretty much um, you know, finance a slate of movies that she would produce. And because I had um, you know, a pretty general background in in finance and and, you know, exposure to entrepreneurship. Uh we had a a nice dynamic where she taught me everything about the film industry and about how to run a you know, a team, run a company, run a production. Um and in return I helped her a lot with

you know, raising money and and, you know, getting pitched decks together and stuff like that for for investors. So, uh that was a great experience. And that took me through to, you know, about Two thousand late two thousand eleven. Um and I just kinda decided

The film industry is insane. I can't you know, I can't imagine doing this for the rest of my life. Hollywood is is nuts. Um and so I was kind of looking for the next thing to do. I actually was considering I I really thought I was gonna go try get a PhD in psychology. Uh, but then I met Peter Zhang, uh, who I th you've had him on before, uh, I think. And uh Yeah, met Peter and we s started talking and he said he knew this great trader, this guy Sang Luchi on on Twitter and

Um, he was gonna be working with him and I said, All right, I'm gonna start I'm gonna this guy's clearly very smart. I'm gonna hang out with him and maybe work with him a little bit until uh just until I get a signal that, you know, I shouldn't be doing this and Four months later we moved out to New York. Uh Anon, who is, you know, the the man behind Sang Luchi, Anon Songvi, uh Peter and I lived in this loft that we were also working out of and

That was kind of the beginning of it. So uh yeah. Awesome, awesome. Really cool story, Charlie. Um yeah, Peter Zhang was on episode nine of the podcast. So guys, definitely check that out. That was an awesome interview. And Lucci has also been on, he was episode eight.

Um I'll link to those in the show notes anyway. So Charlie, give us the rundown on what you do today. Like give us a brief summary of your your day today, you know, what's your what's your task, what's your role that you're involved with. Um with the guys today. Yeah, so pretty much our operations have expanded into we have we pretty much have two operations. We have

Uh I I would describe them as two incubators. One of them is a hedge fund where we incubate traders to, you know, trade within the hedge fund, um, almost all automated traders. So uh definitely gravitating more towards that. And um and then the second component is an incubator for um mostly software, you know, online products that would be targeting traders. So education, um, you know, software, anything within within that realm. Uh same Luci dot com.

is uh, you know, where we started and and that was really sort of our bread and butter that really helped pay the the overhead and everything when we were in in New York um in the beginning and then we've expanded out. We partnered up with Wall Street Jesus, which was was really cool, um, working on his

his uh flow scanner and and you know building out the chat interface that we that we run with him and then also partnering up with uh with HFT alert Steve Hammer over there who I'm hoping to to get on your podcast too. I think it'd be a great interview. for you. Um but uh yeah my role is A to be the sane one, you know, to be the non trader in the in the group. Um

Yeah, I'm I'm pretty much tasked with with management, operations, um, you know, the marketing of things. Um, I would say at this point, you know, Peter and I sort of run things as is kind of co presidents on on everything and um You know, it's yeah, it's it's it kind of depends on the day. Some days like today, we were very much focused on on the hedge fund. We have meetings in

in uh Chicago in the next couple of days. We had to do a lot of prep for that. Um and other days it's you know, we're really focused on stuff going on with the websites. Um so yeah, you kinda gotta put on

different hats at different moments depending on what's going on. Sure, okay. Now you said something interesting in your response there, um, about how the majority of the traders that you bring on uh focused on automation. Why is that the case? Like why do you have um why do you prefer to bring on traders who are who lean more towards automation? Uh that's a great question. Uh we could I could talk for for days on it, I guess. Um I mean I think these days it is

as I'm sure your listeners know, it's it's it's just so much there there's so much less edge out there. It is so much harder to make money. Uh it's so much more competitive, especially in, you know, uh US equ US equities markets. Um

So when you have a degree of sophistication in the automation realm, it's it's a it's a differentiation that you can it's kind of a moat around your your business, around your trade. It's it's something that if you have that technological expertise and you have, you know, a system that you've built up that is robust, that, you know, has the the, you know, the rules of your trade that make it successful, you know, built into it.

Uh I think it just increases your odds of success that much more. Um it's trading alone, you know, in in easier markets is hard enough from a psychological standpoint, if you if you're just a human doing it discretionary, doing, you know, um, you know, the discipline that's required is really, you know, considerable. So I think for us as, you know, we're putting investor money

behind, you know, what these guys are doing. Um, the predictability, the amount of testing you can do, the degree of confidence you can have in in the executions and that and that, you know, certain rules will be followed is It just is makes us sleep better at night. Um we've had better success with it, to be honest. You know, we've we've worked with

discretionary traders, we work with non discretionary traders and and just in our, you know, limited experience it's you know, it's the automated guys that that have succeeded and and done well. So yeah.

Okay. Now you you said you're flying out to Chicago in a couple of days, you know, for meetings and I I from what I understand that happens pretty regularly. What are the meetings that you kind of attend um in relation to the hedge fund? Like what are they about?

It depends. I mean sometimes we're meeting with guys who could be potential traders. Um sometimes we are meeting with potential sources of capital, uh, which could be, you know, high net worth individual investors, could be uh, you know, well established crop firms that are out there that, you know, would back a trade like ours. Um and then you know, there's always

in you know, the technology that support you know, vendors that um support any of the trades. You know, there's often a lot of relationship management, business development stuff that we have to do related to that. So, um and then, you know, we have a mentor uh who's, you know, kind of on our board of advisors and and has been

you know, hugely instrumental in in kind of guiding us through things. Um so he's he's based out there too. So, you know, we uh we soak up as much knowledge as we can when we go there. So Right. Um yeah. Right. Okay. Very cool.

Now Charlie I've got a question for you. Um being surrounded by traders, have you ever been tempted to trade yourself? Like what's your decision for for being involved in the business but not as an actual trader? I think about that every day.

Um I mean the the thing with trading is that I really think it kinda consumes at least a piece of yourself. You know? Um you can almost tell traders when you meet them, whether someone's a trade or not, based on like the amount of energy they exude, the amount of focus that they have that they can give to other um you know sort of non-trading facets of their life because You know, the markets are obviously

changing every single day. They are dynamic. They are constantly shifting. The competition is has never been more intense. So it really kinda takes a piece of your brain and a piece of your life. And I saw that with my, you know, with my dad growing up. I see that with a lot of my best friends, with my, you know, business partners. uh with the with the traders that we work with, um, you know, with the websites, with the guys in the hedge funds. It it just kinda consumes you and I think

Um, I just said, all right, there's all there's here's a list of things that I wanna do, you know, and then all of these things I would pretty much I think have to give up if I traded. Um, you know, and I I don't think of myself as someone who would have like some amazing knack for trading, you know, I think it would take me just as much, if not more, work, to be good at trading, you know, as as what the average person requires. So it's just like

Am I willing to you know, the the kind of the cost benefit I guess of do would I want to just completely give it up? Um, you know, everything else I do to trade. Um, because I think that's the sacrifice that that trading really, you know, demands of you. So

That's the math that kinda goes into it. Okay. Now that's a really interesting response and I appreciate you you sharing that with us. Um, one of the things you've mentioned to me in the past is that you have a great amount of respect for anyone who can trade successfully and support themselves, you know, over time. Why is this the case? Like why do you share that why do you have that that great amount of respect for traders?

I think because it it it's just so difficult for one, um and it requires such persistence and it is you and I in the past have talked about, you know, s similarities to to entrepreneurship too and I think one of the similarities is is that both of those uh both trading and entrepreneurship, you can just get, you know, the ground taken out from underneath you at any moment and

you c you can be kicking ass and you know, you're you're trading, you're you're racking up, you know, profitable day after profitable day and just killing it and then the next day you know, market regime shift or, you know, a a glitch in your code, something happens and, you know, you just take a you know, a colossal loss. It's like you can never let your guard down. You always have to be on your game. Um and then I think

going, you know, beyond that and and speaking to like individual traders who are on their own, who are not working within a firm structure, who don't have, you know, uh a couple of million dollars of technology and infrastructure and, you know, execution.

uh, you know, pipes behind them. They're they're just uh you know, in their home office trying to trade. It's like The the technology yes, the technology is is stacked against you, but also just the psychological component of not having um not having people that you can, you know, learn from immediately, like right, you know, right available to you that you can talk to, very successful traders that can pass on that knowledge to you.

Um, you know, it used to be with you know, trading in the pit, like you started out you were clerking for somebody that that was uh that was an apprenticeship, you know, that was the way that was a knowledge transfer process. And, you know, now that um the markets have gone electronically it's it's much harder

that that avenue doesn't exist the same way that it used to. Um so I just think if you're a guy at home and and you know you're trying to trade and and trying to figure out the markets and, you know, there's a million different people out there trying, you know trying to get your attention to to buy their product whether, you know, their education or whatever. Um

You're just inundated with challenges and distractions and to be able to sift through all that and, you know, maintain a sense of consistency for yourself uh is just that's a tremendously impressive thing to me. So No doubt. No doubt.

So from the way you see it, I mean I think you may have touched on it there, but if we could just, you know, go into a little further. Why are the odds of success stacked against traders from the get go? You mean like s sort of w I guess what you could say retail like non professional traders? Yeah, let let's start there. Yeah. Um I just think now the amount of money that is put behind um you know, the amount of money and intelligence that's that's put behind a lot of the institutional

trading and the strategies uh is just tremendous. You know, it it's it's just when you compare, you know, a firm that has a couple of PhDs, um, you know, running all sorts of quantitative analysis on um, you know, on the markets at any given time and then uh, you know, the knowledge that you have. I mean, I remember y I think you've had high amon, you know, the the order type controversy was was a pretty well known thing a couple of years back. That was something that only, you know,

top tier uh, you know, firms really knew about. Um, you know, uh there's So there's a lot of stuff that is just sort of like insider knowledge. I guess you could say it's not insider trading. They're not trading on information that isn't available, but they they're aware of technology, they're aware of, you know, they have access to relationships. I mean, even even looking at like commissions, you know, I mean

uh the commission structure a lot of times, especially, you know, in uh non ac you know in like sort of the CME world and in the C F T C and, you know, futures markets, I mean, it can be really cryptic, you know, and in getting membership

on you know for the various exchanges and whatnot. I mean, Peter, you know, my partner, it's sometimes it's a full time job for him to just try and navigate through the labyrinth of of, you know, what's out there just to try and get get get us the best commissions that are available. So um I think the resources that are put towards extracting edge out of the markets by major participants in the markets right now

are so enormous and so considerable. Um, and the intelligence of some of the people that are in these firms is is really, really legitimate. I mean, I kind of get tired of hearing about, you know, physics PhDs like getting, you know, absorbed into quantum firms and whatnot. But when you meet some of these guys it really is it's crazy. They're they're really, really bright people. So, um Yeah.

in some ways it's just not that complicated. It's this there's so much uh so many resources being put towards extracting that edge and in and in some ways predicting what a non professional trader would do and then taking advantage of, you know, the the pitfalls that they know that that person's gonna step into. So um You know, you have people who are working around the clock under tremendous pressure with a ton of money and a ton of intelligence.

All their their only job is to, you know, beat you. at trading, you know. Um that's like that's what you're up against. Not to not to not not not to make everyone think that they should just give it up. I'm not saying that, but you know, uh it's you gotta know what you're up against. Well yeah, yeah, no doubt.

So what are some of the challenges that you find are unique to trading as a job or if it d as a discipline if you want to call it that, opposed to jobs in other industries? Great question. Um I think, you know, the constantly shifting nature of the markets means that

even the best traders, you know, your trade can always go away. You know, a trade that's worked for ten years, it it can go away. It'll stop working. Someone, you know, sees what you're doing and they, you know, close the close the gap um or whatever market shift for some reason it stops working, it it means that you have to constantly be able to reinvent yourself. And, you know, if you're an accountant, you know, if you're a lawyer, I don't think that those

you don't have to reinvent yourself nearly, you know, to that degree. Um, and sort of re educate yourself. Um, I also think the degree to which other people don't understand, like other people in your life probably don't understand. how much it takes of you to trade um is probably quite difficult. Like I I think

one of the things that that I've seen traders have a difficult time with, you know, various people in my life is their relationship with other people in their life, their you know, their their girlfriend, their wife, their husband, whatever. And um And the fact that they just don't get that at the end of the day when they've traded all day, um, it's like they've been in a psychological boxing match, you know, and they come out of it and they're sort of like a little bit in the haze. Um

And uh it's very hard to go from that to then have any kind of brain power or willpower left and go in and live the rest of your life, you know, in a in a, you know, mature way. I think there's one of the reasons why like a lot of traders just love to party and Yeah, drink and whatever is because They get to the end of the day and their their brain just kind of shot, you know, and they're like, hey, let's go get let's go get fucked up. You know, they they like don't have anything else left.

They can't you know they can't do anything else. Um I mean I know a bunch of my friends who are traders, you know, have said to me for for years, like, Oh yeah, I'm really gonna get back into working out. I'm gonna go to the gym and do it. And I honestly feel like it's it's the deck the the decks just stacked against them. It's a question of willpower. Like they've been making decisions all day, like thousands of decisions sometimes.

Um and then they're trying they're they expect their brain to be able to say, Okay, now we're gonna go, you know, do this thing that I don't really wanna do, go work out and unfortunately is just not realistic. Um so I think the amount that like it tak how much it takes out of you as a job, I think, is uh is something that's unique to trading to. Um

And um I mean I think honestly the the in the the markets in in the industry really, really have changed uh a ton over the last you know, obviously the last thirty years, but even the last, you know, ten, five years. Um I can't think of another industry

I don't have the expertise really to comment on it, but there there there have been so many changes in terms of how the market like just getting access to the markets um and how markets move and and the various participants that are there and um you know it's really changed a lot so I guess speaking to kind of the first point I made, y you just really have to be on your toes all the time. You can't ever relax and coast. There's no

You don't you don't get to do that. Yeah, yeah, that's a that's a really valid point there, Charlie. Are you ready to get serious about trading? Then join Tasty Trade, Investopedia's best platform for options trading in twenty twenty six. Stocks, options, futures, and more. Tasty Trade has everything you trade all in one platform. Get low commissions, including zero commission on stocks.

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Just sort of continuing on that, um, what are some of the the common denominators between those uh f from what you have seen, what are some of the common denominators between those who have achieved consistency and do make a comfortable living from trading? Um, great question. I think there's a couple of things. One of them is is that they know uh

sort of like the don't die rule, you know? They they know how to keep their seat at the table. They don't blow themselves up. So they don't put terminal risk on the table. Uh they know that that trading in a lot of ways is about Surviving

long enough in in getting through market cycles that are not that great for your strategy so that you're around when, you know, that ten percent um ten percent of the time chance, you know, comes around and you have the opportunity to make a ton of money. You know, they know that

you know, there's some traders that uh they they make the vast majority of their income the year, you know, in one or two trades and they know that they have to keep their seat at the table and and survive through that. Um I think just you know, sincere passion and and sort of fascination with the markets is one thing too, I think.

peop you know, a lot of people um try to get themselves interested in it because they see that, you know, the amount of money that could be made. But s a lot of the guys that really are successful, um are able to uh, you know, they they really care. They they really are just fascinated by how the markets move. They they'd be doing it whether they made money or not doing it.

Um well maybe that's not true, but you know, they'd be really interested in it. Um and uh, you know, working their ass off, just crazy dedication and willingness to make sacrifices. Um you know, putting in the hours. I mean I remember Luci

telling uh telling me when he first told me how he made he learned tape reading. I mean he was at a prop firm and he was losing money when he first started and and he would go through he took the best trades uh from the best trader there. He took you know sort of the trade log.

and he would go back through and he would look at the tape. He would match up the trades with the tape and he would discern cause and effect between what did this guy see in the tape? Why did you know, what did he do? And you know, he would do that for like three, four hours every day after the market closed. Um And that's how we learned how to read tape. And ninety five percent of the people who try to learn trading, they don't want to do that. Um so uh yeah it

But you have to have since you know really serious dedication. I think also just intelligence, you know, m you you don't I don't you don't have to be a genius to be a good trader, but you definitely can't be like a complete dumbass. You know, like you can't uh you know, you have to have something working for you. And um actually I would think um I think maybe the most important thing is just humility, uh, to be honest. And that goes even for automated traders too. Um, in the sense that

they understand that no matter how much money they make, no matter how good they think they are, the market at any moment can and will slap them down. You know, so every day when they come you know, to their trade station, they are they're coming with the perspective of not, you know, I'm the shit and, you know, look how big my account is. It's, you know, coming with

serious humility and and that gives them that affords them a you know an awareness and you know sort of a defensive mindset that facilitates them staying alive. Um and that goes for guys who You know, we've met um you know, in the last couple of years we've had the opportunity to meet um, you know, a couple of guys that uh you know, one of'em who who, you know, made a billion dollars trading. I mean, he's kind of a legend, you know, trader within the uh

within the Chicago prop industry and and a couple of guys who, you know, are in the hundred million range and seeing them, you know, they they just look like completely normal guys. They're wearing sandals and, you know, a Hawaiian T shirt. Like they they do

and and and they carry themselves on the trading, you know, on the trading floor the same way. It's it's humility. They're not swaggering, they're not strutting their shit. Um So yeah,'cause I think if you have that attitude, if you do have that swagger and cockiness, like at a certain it's just a matter of time before you know, you let your guard down and the market just uppercuts you, you know.

That's a really great point, Charlie. I yeah, I think that was that was awesome that you highlighted that.

Um and especially herring that like guys who have made a billion dollars, like that's on a whole another level. And to hear that they just sort of hold themselves like normal guys, like it's uh you know, that's awesome. Yeah. So something you've stressed in the past, and I think this kind of leads on from what you were saying there, is that good traders have ownership of their strategy. Could you explain what you mean by this? Yeah, absolutely. I think that

They, you know, for one, the strategy that they've chosen is is one that matches who they are. You know, if there are guys who can trade discretionarily, you know, and they can they can keep, you know, an entire universe of, you know, market movements straight in their head. And for that guy, he shouldn't go

try and learn how to code and and, you know, become an automated trader. It's it's they have developed and and gravitated towards strategies and mastered strategies that align with who they are, with their personality, with you know, their temperaments, right? So they're not trying to force, you know, a s square peg and a round hole. Um

I think that they really understand, you know, especially you know, this is one of the things we look at, you know, if if we're looking at a potential trader for the fund. They really know. the the various things that could derail their trade. Um whether it's, you know, macroeconomic conditions, whether it's you know, a a change in, you know, how Q priority is determined. Um, you know, there's any number there's a litany of things that that uh could change

the you know the potential profitability for your trade, they know all of those things. They're constantly thinking about that. Um you know it's like you know, p p you probably haven't gotten this nearly as much down in Australia, but like with um, you know, Peyton Manning winning the Super Bowl this year and Tom Brady, a bunch of controversy around him, there's been so much talk about what makes them such amazing quarterbacks, right? And and

they just talk about um y th there's these guys never ever ever stop thinking about how to win in football and how to make themselves better. And I think when we talk about ownership of a trade, it's like that That's the mentality of just constantly thinking about how can you refine it, how can you make it better. Um and then also knowing, you know, more on the quantitative side.

what makes your trade actually work and uh, you know, the various things that you need to be concerned about. Like what's what's your max drawdown? You know, all the the standard metrics, Sharp, Sortino, you know, um What uh you know, how much capital do you need to have in in, you know, the sort of ten X

past your max drawdown, you know, the the black swan and like what happens when, you know, when that happens. Um, really thinking about it comprehensively beyond just like, hey, you know, this thing's made my I back tested it for six months and it made money and, you know, that's let's turn it on, right? It's we're good to go.

Okay. So you mentioned there, um, you know, the the hiring process of bringing on new traders to the firm there. You know, one of the things you look for is that they're aware of the pitfalls of their strategy, which I think's um a really interesting point. What are some of the other things you look for in the traders, like how do you evaluate the traders or employees before bringing them on? Yeah, so for traders, you know, my

uh part in in any of the evaluation is definitely more on a qualitative side, right? I'm you know, Pete and and, you know, the other guys on our team uh they're much more on the sort of the quantitative side and and you know we do any time someone's coming on with us we're we're fortunate enough because of the relationships we've formed over the last you know four or five years doing this. We we know

Someone who is pretty much absolutely killing it, um, you know, who's like a 25 year veteran trading in any kind of market, right? So if someone comes to us and says, you know, yeah, I'm a Euro dollar uh, you know, market maker. We know someone who's been doing that and knows that market like the back of his hand. And so we pair that trader with

you know, that expert and they get grilled, you know, and then we talk to the guy and we say, What do you think about this guy? You know, what's the does he understand what he's doing? Um, I think, you know, does the guy have a sense of humility for me? You know, I'm just sort of looking at him and Is this does he you know, is he a humble guy? Does he bring that to the table, you know, when he trades? Um self awareness. Um I think also, you know, your their personal life too. Um

Are they are they volatile? Like I one of the things that can derail traders more than anything is is stuff from, you know, your personal life bleeding into uh into your trading. You know, do they have a stable relationship with their, you know, with their wife and kids? Um it's kind of funny, Pete and I were talking about this today actually. I think we're really finding our strike zone for for the successful traders that we're incubating.

it's guys who are like, you know, between thirty and probably over thirty and they've got they've had a good, solid, you know, ten years at, you know, established, you know, elite firms and But now they've got, you know, a wife and maybe a couple of kids and what they're looking for is stability and consistency and yeah, they wanna grow, they wanna build, but um, you know, they're really thinking long term with their trading. They're not thinking

yo, okay, I wanna make uh I'm trying to make a million bucks in the next six months and then get out of here and go to Bermuda, you know, like you know, they're they they have a long term perspective and their incentives are aligned with ours. Um And um And then I think there's a there's a component to it too, it depends on the trader but Can they work with other people? Can they collaborate? You know, um

Nowadays, I think the amount of specialization that has come about in in trading, it's often I think we're seeing more and more. It's a team of people building a trade. You know, you've got a A developer, you've got the trader, and there's often a couple other people involved somewhere in that process. Are they can the trader communicate what needs to be communicated to a developer? You know, uh can they

handle themselves like can they take scrutiny? Can they handle someone asking them questions, you know, the same question in various different ways? Um, you know, kind of like do they play well with others? You know, and if they don't, They pretty much have to be a one man army and they have to be able to do everything on their own. Uh otherwise there's just not that much runway for that.

Sure, sure. Okay. Well Charlie, I'd like to drill down a little more into the psychology side of trading. Um I know you're very big on this and you've already kind of briefly touched on it earlier, but let's uh let's drill down into this a little further. Um, I I guess let's start by I'd like to ask you what is it about this aspect that that really fascinates you and and what makes you think that it is such a big part of a trader's profitability and success? I think that the

you know, that that it's just the way that psychology has always been the way that when I look at the world, that's what explains how things work for me. It just kinda makes sense. I think everyone you know, to a certain degree from a natural predisposition has something, some discipline that when they try to understand why things are happening the way they are,

you know, that explains it. For some people it's physics or economics or whatever and and for me it's just psychology makes sense. Um and a lot of it comes from experience, um both watching my you know, growing up with my dad, with um you know, watching a lot of other traders and that that we knew, you know, that were kinda close to my family and whatnot, the guys that had a grip, you know, a handle on their psychology on their mental health, on on their consistency, uh

tended to trade better, they tended to not blow up. They tended to not make, you know, poor decisions, impulsive decisions, decisions for the wrong reasons. They tended to execute their strategies with more discipline.

Um, and the guys who had other issues, a lot of times it it really bled into their trading. Oftentimes the guys who w some of the guys who were really, really smart, really talented Um, you know, they it didn't matter how much knowledge they had in their brain if, you know, what was if the filter to execute it was was broken, you know, if they if they had a mood disorder and they and they were, you know, emotionally all over the place.

it doesn't really matter how smart you are or how good your understanding of the of of the markets is, you you you just you don't have a a shot at that. Um and may and and you know, I I kinda gravitate towards the mental health side of things sometimes, but you know, oftentimes it's not that severe. It's just like If you're sleep deprived, if you've slept for two hours a night for like the last, you know, four nights

like your ability to to make decisions and to react quickly and to execute is diminished. Um and I there's a lot of guy I've heard a million times from people who are like, oh no, actually I'm like I can get by with, you know, like two hours of sleep. It doesn't really affect me. And I'm like, you're full of shit. Like that's just not like you're a human being. I'm sorry. At the end of the day, like it's gonna add up. It's gonna affect you.

Um and maybe the adrenaline in the moment, you know, can get you through could get you back up to where you would be for like, you know, a five or ten minute span, but like you're gonna you're gonna come down. Um so in part from personal experience, you know, watching it happen, you know, over and over, um, you know, with with people that I knew in in my personal life. And then once we started doing everything that we're doing now, uh, witnessing it, you know, more on the professional side and

um both in the in the traders that we've pro provided education to to and then also people that we've either worked with in the hedge fund or considered working with. Um in in moments of honesty and, you know, when when people were saying, you know, okay, really this is the reason why I can't, you know, trade consistently or whatnot.

it's often they just turn to the the psych the psychological side of things. You know, they're just like I c I can't you know, I can't get my head around X, Y, Z or you know, I really can't focus because of blah blah blah. Um so you know, I don't have any uh beyond just a lot of personal experience and watching it in and observation, um I think it also comes down to to me and my own obsession with it. Um I mean I just I think I get kind of obsessed with like

uh you know, like the compass effect, right? So if you have a compass If you're standing in the middle of the woods and you know you have a compass and it's and it's pointing you know directly north and and you start walking that direction, you're gonna end up you know just walking directly north, right? If you move it one degree and you take one step, you're not gonna be that much of a

far and that far off from where you would have been, you know, had you stayed on, you know, true north. But if you do that for, you know, a mile, you know, the distance, the how far off you are is from where you would have been if you would have stayed going north. is pretty far, you know, and if you sort of extrapolate like, okay, if I could get if I had my sleep cycles down, if I did this, if I did that, if I, you know, went through a list of things that I could do and each one of these things

Maybe improved my performance, maybe improved what I was capable of by one to two percent. Let's say I do 10 of those things a day. you know, I give myself between 10 and 20% more, right? What effect, what compounding effect is that going to have over 20 to 40 year career? You know, that's how I I think about things. Um, I don't think about it as much in terms of

the day to day, it's it's much more like, okay, long term, like, what do I want to look back on and say, damn, I'm glad I did this because it gave me that much more, you know, and it allowed me to achieve that much more. So I think in my own life, um, and you know, really always trying to to foster the resilience that is kind of required for, you know, in an entrepreneurial setting like

I've just learned I really have to be on my game in terms of, you know, taking care of myself. Um, you know, otherwise I'm I'm not gonna be able to to make the best decisions on the fly. I'm not gonna be able to have difficult conversations, you know, with employees or partners or or whatever. Um and you don't get to choose when those moments come up. You know, that's the pain in the ass of it. Like you

if you could just say, All right, all my difficult stuff, like the market is only gonna throw shit at me on Mondays, you know, that'd be that'd make things a lot easier. But it's just not the case. You kinda always have to be prepared. So um Yeah, and then I think growing up, um

with with my dad and and seeing, you know, not only his, you know, the fluctuations in in his sort of temperament and and you know, his psychology but also the other people in his life, I just saw first hand, I experienced it on on a really deep level. the amount the degree to which the the markets can whipsaw you around and can really come to dominate your life, you know, and affect w every area of your life, not just your professional life. Um, if you

you know, don't have the the walls sort of built up around you, you know, um if you're not prepared to if your psychology isn't really robust about it. So I just think I

You know, both from an entrepreneurial side and then, you know, looking at other traders and saying, you know, I don't I don't want anybody to have to kinda lose control of how they feel and what they're capable of on a day to day. You know, that's and if you can build up a psychological um, you know, profile and kind of approach to things then

you're just giving yourself a much, much better opportunity to be in control of your life and and, you know, I think to to execute at a high level. Well said. Well said. That was an awesome answer, Charlie.

Um So I guess this might be an interesting question to bounce off your response there. Uh what are new traders getting themselves into uh when they decide this is something they want to do? Like is there anything that you find that newer traders often aren't prepared for or they often don't expect uh when they come into trading? Uh that's a really good question. Yeah, there is. I think that um

Let's see. I think new traders don't often are not prepared for the amount of self analysis and reflection that they will have to do. Um the d the amount of sort of like I don't know if I call it soul searching, but just understanding of themselves and confronting their own issues. Um I don't think a lot of guys are pr are prepared, um, you know, I should not not just guys, you know.

women do. I don't think they're as prepared um to deal with that. I think that they're like, Okay, I'm gonna learn a strategy and I'm gonna focus on that, I'm gonna do it. Um but even if you're, you know, an automated e even if you're fully automated, I mean you're you're still the one, you know, inputting the the the inputs and the strategy into that into that algorithm like

you know, it's it it's indirect instead of direct, but it's still gonna affect it. Um so I think they don't they're not prepared for the amount of self knowledge that they're gonna have to cultivate and constantly, you know, develop. Um I think also just the difficulty of it too. There's so much stuff out there, you know, Instagram, whatever, that's just like touting, um, you know, easy money and and blah, blah, blah. And it's easy to get sucked into that and

You know, you can kinda tell yourself like, Oh man, if I can just make like an extra you know, I'll do this on the side, I'll make two grand a month, you know, blah, blah, blah. Um, you know, things will be so great, but it's like it's just not if it was that easy

It's just not that easy. I'm sorry. Like it you know, there's there's the the the people on the other end of your orders they don't care what your background is. They don't they don't care. They're they're gonna they want your money, they're gonna take your money if they can get it.

Um, so I think that just the difficulty of the challenge and how long the road can be. Um, you know, a lot of guy like I I think it's pretty standard in terms of the people that we've been exposed to unless they came into a firm structure and they were, you know, in a much more like sort of traditional apprentice.

you know, you watch and observe for a year and then you go on and you start, you know, trading in sim and then move up. You know, if they're just starting out on their own, like it's probably gonna be at least a year before you start

consistently putting up like positive days and really starting to get a gauge for like, okay, this is the kind of strategy, this is the kind of market that that I, you know, can can work with. Um and then, you know, that's like step one. You know, there's many, many, many steps beyond that.

Yeah, and then I think i there's a there's a certain component to it that I think gets lost to a certain degree and and I really do credit Pete for for obsessing with this. Um You know, the... the amount that the right platform and, you know, digging in, talking to your broker, like understanding the makeup of the industry and understanding the incentive structures

of everyone who touches your orders um can be an immensely valuable thing. So understanding, you know, if you're going through an introducing broker and then an executing broker and a clearing firm, the exchanges and then, you know, the other market participants, like what what are what are they incentivized to do? Um I think that a lot of guys don't want to

go down that path, it it's just too much for them, but it can really be a valuable thing just in terms of understanding how markets move and, you know, why certain things are happening the way they are. So I think a lot of guys aren't prepared to to do that sort of analysis.

Yeah, and that was that was really interesting. I also picked that up from speaking with Pete on episode nine and also um Hain Bodek, who was on episode forty nine, obviously talked a lot about that and where your orders are going to which was fascinating like stuff I was completely oblivious to. So that interview was a real opener. Yeah. Yeah. I've heard Haim and Pete talk about that stuff more than I ever care to do ever. That's funny.

So Sticking with the the s the topic of psychology here, um I guess Well I guess it's probably slightly changing the subject, but still very relevant. is human optimization or biohacking, as some people may call it. I know you yourself like to experiment a little. Um can you give us some insight to the things you've either tried out for yourself or researched? in in the effort to, you know, optimise your performance and how you function on a day to day basis.

Yeah, totally. Um I mean some of it is the stuff that probably a little bit sexier, like neurotropics sort of stuff. Um you know, paracetams, the whole the whole Racetam family. Um anybody who has any kind of exposure to to neurotropics has probably heard of that kind of stuff. Um

You know that I I've I've tried out a bunch of different types of stuff like that. Um some of it yeah, I think there was a you know a decently discernible effect. Some of it Um you know, not as much and and the side effects. you know, I just didn't really think we're were worth it. It wasn't worth dealing with. Um but yeah, I th I know a fair number of people who have some sort of supplement or neurotrophic or something that they're like, you know, yeah, this really helps me

you know, focus on something, this this type of work, right? Um, you know, or it really helps me uh, you know, stay calm in various situations. It doesn't always have to be like some upper or some stimulant that, you know, gets them jacked up. Um So yeah, I think that that is totally especially in like the neurotrophic, you know, supplementation space. A, you gotta be really careful because there's definitely stuff out there that is y you know, you don't wanna be toying with at all. Um and

you know, everyone every human body is different, right? What what works and reacts well to someone's system, you know, might have a really horrible reaction with someone else's system. Um and then it's really a matter of just sort of experimentation on like low levels and and finding the things that that you think enhance your, you know, performance and y your experience and and, you know, doing those and cutting out the ones that don't. Um but I think, you know, on sort of the non

You know, it's not as sexy, but the stuff like I mean for me the biggest thing has been sleep. That it's like it's frustrating for To be honest,'cause like it I wish that there was just like a pill or like cooler than just like sleep. I mean, that seems so like, you know, middle ages that sleep, you know, in in it's twenty sixteen. There isn't something that is more important. But um no, I mean sleep for me, like just consistent sleep cycles and, you know, getting enough of it.

I'm the type of person that's like I'm I'm decently sensitive to it. Um yeah, I mean I can go a couple nights in a row with like, you know, six or five hours maybe, but after a while it's really gonna add up. I think especially with the amount of stress that, you know, that we deal with on a day to day. Um so getting that down, getting into a good rhythm, uh I know that's something that Luci is is, you know, tried to do off and on at various points in his life.

Um, you know, avoiding stuff like, you know, substances that are gonna mess me up the next day. Like if I you know, I'm I don't go out and get hammered. You know, uh anymore. I'm 29. So my hangovers now last like four days. So I'm just like, eh, it's not really worth it. Um and then, you know, nutrition, uh, exercise.

Uh nutrition exercise and meditation for me have been really big. Meditation, uh, you know, I do it twenty minutes a day, twice a day, uh really helps me. It's pretty much like a power nap is how I would describe it. I just you know, it's very relaxing.

I come out of it and for the next three to four hours I really feel like uh you know, I'm completely rested, feel you know, a lot calmer, uh able to handle a lot more stress, a lot more stuff getting thrown at me. So and it's to me it's like, you know, risk rewards. It's free. Like I I I I kinda asked myself, why wouldn't I do this? you know? Um and um you know, nutrition for sure. Like the stuff you eat, the stuff you put in your body, like it's absolutely

gonna affect how you feel, how you function. Uh I used to make Lucci eat food. I felt like his mom. Um when we lived together, I would like make him eat breakfast because it drove me insane. He would wake up and he wouldn't eat all day and like so we wouldn't eat for eight hours. Whereas for me I eat like every two hours. Um And uh it just drove me insane. And, you know, he I don't even know if he does it now he he lives back in Boston so I don't get to, you know, observe him every day. But uh

You know, he uh I know it did help him at certain points, you know, when we were when we were living together and he was trading. Um And uh so yeah, just like finding the things that like your body reacts positively to and doing those things and then eliminating the things that you don't feel that great with. And some of it's stuff that I think what people get caught up with is trying to find like a generalization, trying to find some rule that applies to everybody and

it just doesn't work like that. I mean, think about how many different, you know, blood types there are. Like y you know, the the the the amount of diversity within from person to person in terms of how they react to various, you know, substances or whatever, is huge. And, you know, it could be that something that works for you or something that you're sensitive to, nobody else you know. you know, deals with it. Fine. Who cares? Like if it works for you, do it. Um, so I think

it required the annoying part, which it's not annoying for me. I I like this stuff. I'm a nerd with it. Uh the annoying part is y I think you do have to experiment a lot. Like you have to kinda put in the time and the effort and try out various things and you know, if you think you're allergic to some kind of food like you gotta cut it out of your diet, you know, you gotta try. Like, you know, if you think that um

that your sleep cycles is really gonna help to to help you stay more focused and energized throughout the day. Like you gotta do it. There's only one way to figure it out and that's just to experiment with it. For sure, for sure. No, that was really insightful, Charlie. Thank you very much. Now I wanna ask you

Um what what technology do you think may be utilized in the future to monitor a trader's state, whether that be, you know, any of the things you you've discussed um prior to this? Yeah. Um actually some of this is stuff that we're working on a little bit in the periphery here, uh extremely early stages, but um definitely something actively thinking about.

Um, especially for discretionary traders, I mean the health of your nervous system is very important. If you put yourself through the ringer for, you know, four days or five days in a row, like your nervous system is you're gonna see effects of that. And, you know, one of the things that you can do to to measure that is heart rate variability, which is essentially, you know, it's not actually your heart rate. It's

uh the amount of variability in your heart rate. Like so, you know, that your heart is actually beating at you know, changing intervals, which it sounds counterintuitive, but that's a good thing. You want that. You don't want your heart to be, you know, like a metronome, like boom, boom, boom, boom. Um so as y as your heart rate variability increases, uh, generally

sort of the the health of your nervous system um also increases. So, you know, you can do that there uh with the Apple Watch I know you can do it. I mean you can measure your heart rate variability, you know, on a moment to moment basis. And you know, in the future I think that there it's totally feasible that you would be able that within a trading platform or you know for a risk manager, let's say, who's who's overseeing, you know, a number of different traders.

looking at, you know, the state of their nervous system and saying

This guy's blown out, man. You know, he can't he's he's not he's he's operating at uh seventy five percent of what he typically would be operating at. You know, he shouldn't be putting on that sort of size, you know, let's take him off for the day. Let's let's have him, you know, sit and uh You know, this kind of stuff sounds like crazy, but um, you know, the Golden State Warriors, like, you know, the the the the team that is P people are arguing it's one of the best teams, you know.

um of all time in the NBA, like this is the stuff that they're doing. They monitor their their players and they say, you know, hey, Steph Curry, you're uh you know, you seem like looking at your your metrics here, the analytics Seems like you're a little bit exhausted, we're gonna we're gonna sit you from practice today. You know, an old school

you know, coaches and and I think this goes for traders too, they'd be like, You fucking kidding me? Like, get your ass out there. You know, you're you're a player, you play. Like you're you're a b basketball player, you play. But um I think that those unfortunately for that like old school mentality, as much respect as I have for it and there are s there's a very small percentage of guys who can just grit through it nonstop. Um

It's just it just doesn't make sense in the long run, you know. Um especially when you think about your career uh and the longevity of Um, you know, if you can push through beating the shit out of yourself, you know, for ten years, you might be able to get twenty years out of it if you if you aren't kicking the shit out of yourself, if you're actually taking care of yourself. So Um

Stuff like that, you know, there's there's weird you know, I I get ripped on in the office. I do this the I go to these things, sensory deprivation tanks, which like living in New York City, it's just like an onslaught of just noise and chaos and blah blah blah. So

Um anybody who's listened to like Joe Rogan, they've probably heard him talk about it. It's basically this tank, you float in in, you know, sort of Epsom salt water. So you're you know, you're just floating, you're you're buoyant and uh there's no sound, there's no light, right? So it's like it gives your nervous system a chance to just completely shut down and recharge, right?

Um again, this is the kind of thing that that a lot of athletes use. I could totally see I I mean when we have the money, I want one of those for you know for our office. So, you know, if if people are just feeling cashed or exhausted, instead of going and like taking a walk like they get to go sit you know, lay in a sensory deprivation tank, like a real recharge, you know. Um I I think it's pretty much like an arms race. Um and whoever has

the the ability to optimize, you know, their traders, their employees, their you know, themselves the most, they're the ones they're gonna be they're gonna get the ha have the highest likelihood of getting the best results. So, um actually I think extending even into um There's a company that we've that we've talked to a little bit that that basically has a a profiling engine uh

that actually they partnered up with uh with IBM Watson apparently, um, to do this. And basically it's it's an analysis of th they would run an analysis on every single component of your life. So you know, using um, you know, linguistic analysis on all of your social media.

anything you put out in in the world, um, your emails, your any chat messages, looking at your spending habits within your bank accounts and everything like that, looking at all your biometrics, you know, your heart rate, heart rate, variability, all those things. And basically just give building a a comprehensive picture of

what's going on with this guy right now? You know, um that's a little bit brave new worldish. It's kind of creepy, even for someone like me who's like into this stuff. Um but I think if there were serious results that came from that. If they could say, Hey, looking at your social media, looking at the stuff you're putting out in the world, looking at your spending habits, it looks like, you know, you're on tilt. Like we gotta we gotta scale back your, you know, your trading here. Um, you know

If it works, if it produces results, I don't know, you know, how can you how can you turn it down? So um Yeah, I mean those are just ki kind of first couple of things that come to mind. I think it basically it'll be like an integration of all those various inputs of information into your trading platform, you know, or into, you know, whatever the risk manager's looking at. I mean, it's you're gonna be able to access this kind of stuff that otherwise you

Prior to this you never had access to this information. Right.

Yeah, no, that that was an awesome answer, Charlie, and um really, really fascinating some of those things you mentioned there. And I've always wanted to to try out one of those sensory deprivation tanks. Um I've always wanted to have a go in one. Like how long do you do you sit in one of those for? Like what what do you do while you're in there? Uh yes you go in. I go in for like an hour. Um

I mean it's really is amazing. The first time I was in there for the first five minutes I was kind of freaking out because I was like, I'm in like this I'm in a tank, you know, it's i it's in it like a um like a rehabilitation facility in New York. Like, you know, um they work with any people who've been in car accidents or, you know, got knee surgery or whatever. And this is a component to to what they offer. Um

And so, you know, you're in there and you're like, I don't know the people who run this place that well. Like, what if someone came up and locked me in this thing? This would be a horrible way to die. You know, like that's that's the kind of stuff that like jumps in your head in the very beginning. Um But pretty quickly you really start to get absorbed into the feeling of just weightlessness and, you know, no sound, no no light and

It's incredibly relaxing. Um and there's times where you just kinda float and think about various things, maybe work through some problems or, you know, just wherever your mind drifts to, think about it. And then there's definitely times where nap or something. It's it's you're in kind of a suspended state of consciousness, I guess, and it's it's like a

extremely relaxing, you know, floating experience and you just uh you're kinda out and then, you know, the lights slowly fade up when your time's up and you're like, Oh, you know, an hour just went by. So um It kinda depends on I guess the the mood that you're in. There's there's people who take like

you know, psychedelics who who'll take like, you know, sh mushrooms or L S D or something will get in there. Uh I'm not at that level yet, maybe down the line, but um there's definitely people who do like mind altering substances and and go in there too. Um So but yeah, I mean it's really just like a it's a chance to relax and reboot and

Uh actually afterwards you come out, you're in a really relaxed, chilled out, you know, headspace. So I often you know, I'll go on like a Saturday, I usually go home and pass out for like two hours and have like an awesome, you know, sleep. So

Yeah. Right. Okay. Yeah, very cool. Um yeah, and I c I sometimes listen to Joe Rogan's podcast and um yeah, he often talks about them. He swears by them, so yeah, yeah. He's he's like he's pretty much credited with like completely reviving the, you know, the industry for these things. It's pretty crazy. Yeah. Well I know he has one in his house actually, w so, you know, that's pretty cool.

Yeah. All right, Charlie. Well let's let's close this off here. Um last question. Where can listeners go to find out more about you? Uh that's a great question. Um Sangluchi.com is is one of the one of the better places. I mean yeah, if you go to the about us section, the the whole team is is on there. Um we're we're in the process of of

you know, really formalizing and kind of putting out um, you know, the the incubator, the kind of the mothership to to all the various websites and and things that we're operating. So I think there's gonna be a lot more information for all of us on there, you know, pretty soon. Um And um oh, Twitter, I guess, you know, at Charlie B Gate. Uh I don't tweet as much as I would like to as the rest of the guys I work with do, but uh, you know, I'm on there, so

Yeah. All right guys, we'll make sure to go and follow Charlie on Twitter and check out saintluchi.com. Charlie, it's been awesome having you on. Um we've we've had a really interesting conversation here. I hope listeners really enjoy it. Um and again, thank you very much for doing this. Awesome Aaron. Thanks for having me, man. Really appreciate it. Really enjoyed it. You've reached the end of this episode of Chat with Traders, but rest assured there are more episodes. soon.

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