025: Aaron Fifield – Zach Hurwitz Speaks with Aaron About His Development as a Trader

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Chat for more information. Tasty Trade Inc. is a registered broker dealer and member of FINRA, NFA, and SIPC. The biggest secret of the best traders in the world is that they're just like everyone else. They've worked hard to learn the markets and discover what works and what doesn't. How can you hear about these Here's your host, Aaron Feiff.

Hey, what's up guys? Thanks so much for tuning in to episode 25 of the Chat with Traders podcast. It's great to have you tuned in. This week I thought I'd change things up a little bit and I'm actually gonna reverse the interview. So instead of firing questions at the guests like I normally do, I'm gonna be on the receiving end and giving the answers.

If you've had the chance to listen to episode one then you may recall I gave a brief overview right at the beginning explaining where I was at with my trading. Well things have gradually progressed since then, so I thought this would be a good milestone to update anyone who is curious to know. So to keep things interesting, I brought on Zach Hurwitz, who I'm sure you will remember from episode eleven of the podcast, and he'll be the one asking the questions.

Zack's a great friend of mine and is continually guiding me along to becoming a better trader through regular coaching and mentoring, so I couldn't think of anyone better for the job. Plus Zack also expands on many of my responses with additional insight. So all in all, I hope you find this episode to be valuable in its own unique way. And just before we get into it, if you have any questions or comments for either Zach or myself, Just go to chatwithraders dot com forward slash twenty five

Scroll to the bottom of the page and drop in a comment. Both Zach and I will be monitoring this very closely, so if you've got any uh feedback or responses, just feel free to share them there. Alright team, enjoy this interview and let's talk soon. Hey Zach, what's going on? Thanks again for appearing on the show for I guess we could call it maybe round two. Round one and a half. Aaron, it's always a pleasure, man. I'm happy to be here.

Yeah, yeah. So I mean we're doing things a little bit differently this time. Um I'm gonna be speaking For the most part, not entirely, but um sh giving a little bit of insight about an update on sort of where I'm at with my trading and sort of what's been going on in my world. Um I mean you've been pressuring me into doing this for a while and I've had a bunch of a bunch of emails come through from people just sort of asking me for an update because I mean I sort of

made it pretty clear on where I was at with my trading in episode one, right at the very beginning, I sort of rambled on there for a bit and I just sort of haven't really updated anyone In the meantime, so I I sorta thought this might be interesting, just change things up for a little bit, so Uh well Aaron, you were you were missing an important trader in your first twenty five. You only gave people insight in episode one. So uh like myself, I came along episode ten, eleven, etcetera.

And uh I don't know, I I kinda missed the backstory, so I had to I had to Skype you and talk to you longer after the interview. We've developed quite the friendship. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So you're gonna be sort of firing a few questions my way, so I'm a little bit nervous to be on the other side of the um the other side of it now, but um let's see how I hold up, eh?

Well tell me Aaron, how'd you first discover trading? I mean this is the question you always ask people to lead off with, so it's natural start for you. Yeah, yeah, no, that's a good one. So I mean I should probably I should probably go right back to the very beginning and I and I'll try and try and not ramble too much, I'll try and keep it fairly brief, you know, just to bring us up to speed. So I left school when I was about fifteen.

I hated school. I couldn't wait to get out of there and I left school and I moved into an apprenticeship. I don't know, do you have apprenticeships in the States there? Um I think it'd be more called like an internship, uh but apprenticeship feels a a little more serious and uh arduous. It was it was paid, so I was getting paid to do it. I was doing, you know, thirty eight hours a week. I think I was on

Oh I'd be lucky if it was five dollars an hour on my first year as an apprenticeship. Kinda goes up each year. But anyway, I was doing an apprenticeship and That was in uh sort of graphic design. And anyway, I did that. I was qualified by the time I was 19, it was a four-year apprenticeship.

On the side I'd sort of started up uh sort of started a side business just doing a little bit of freelance design and that sort of thing. Um just trying to make a little bit of extra money. I mean, I always sort of had a drive to set myself up for the future. Um, you know, I wanted to be well off. I wanted to be wealthy. Um I don't think there there's any harm in saying that. Um

you know, I didn't want to be struggling uh you know, later on in my life. I wanna, you know, not have to worry about money at some point. So I sort of felt like I had a long term kind of vision. So I s you know, started a side job. Um I ended up I was pretty good with saving. I ended up buying an investment property when I was uh about twenty years old. And then from there I was sorta like, Okay, so I'm I've got a property

you know, what else do what else do you do? So there was like the next obvious choice was for me to take a look at the stock market. Like I didn't know anything about the stock market or trading

um or in investing and that sort of thing. Like my family's not into it. Uh none of my friends were into it. Uh no one I worked with when I had the job. So, you know, I just sort of ended up Going along to I just sort of jumped on Google, looked up some seminars that were going on in in Brisbane where I'm at, and there was Pretty much just signed up to to one of the there wasn't too many and I just signed up to one that was coming up in the next few weeks.

went along, um, liked what I heard. Um obviously I was only t probably about twenty one at that point and I don't think I was too hard to convince, but um Well, you know, there there's a quick I wanna interject, there's an old saying about the stock market. Uh if you wanna make a million dollars You start with two. Right? Yeah, yeah. I've heard that one before. That's a good one. So it's it's uh real estate or the stock market. But that's so impressive to hear at a young age

Um, I know as we often joke, uh while I'm still in my twenties, I'm gonna say it's we're both still twenty somethings, but uh I am continually impressed, man. As you said, you you didn't have too much Um worry about the present. You had a lot of foresight for the future, um, even from an early age. I don't think many twenty year olds are considering investment properties. I don't know how many twenty year olds could could spell investment property. Yeah, I mean

That that could have sort of had something to do with the fact that I left school when I was fifteen and I didn't see it all the way through and graduate. That I that I sort of had those few years experience working. I dunno. I don't know. But anyway. I hope this isn't broadcast to the children out there who are gonna drop out of school thinking that they can buy an investment pro I'm just kidding, Aaron. You are uh

Maybe an exception to the rule, but uh a a brilliant one and uh I don't know, man, I've I've said this to you before. I'm glad we have you in the stock market now. You're a a powerful mind and you're helping a lot of other people with the podcast, so

Thank you. Gotta be careful, you might give me a big head. But um Um Yeah, so where was I? So yeah, I signed up and what I signed up for, I should be a bit more clear. So what I signed up for was um you know, essentially tr um education on how to trade. And that education sort of involved, you know, a great big thick book, um, a couple of DVDs. and uh like weekend workshop. So it was about like two days long. Anyway.

I went home, obviously got stuck into the book, I watched the D V D's, like I put in a fair amount of study. Like I I didn't bring it home and put on the shelf and let it collect dust. I got um got stuck into it. Um it sort of it was it was actually really good. It was sort of taught me how to, you know, chart technical analysis. Like I was actually hand charting. So I spent Um at least probably the first six months.

before I brought a decent piece of like um charting software and I was actually just charting by hand and I think I think that was a pretty valuable skill to have to actually sort of understand

how to actually construct a chart without just having the software do it all for you. Um you sort of like understand how these tools are actually working, what's going on. So Um I was plotting, you know, just a pretty standard bar chart or candle chart and um, you know, with uh with an indicator over top of it that I uh use occasionally.

Um anyway, th the method that this company taught was um the methods of William Gann, W. D. Gann. Um and for those who aren't familiar with him, he was sort of considered to be like an early a a Wall Street legend of the early nineteen hundreds. I think he passed away around nineteen fifty, sort of time. Don't quote me on that though. Sure. And um

His methods were very Um a lot of them were sort of based on ranges repeating and time repeating and then fractions of those time and ranges. So I I studied this this his methods for probably about two years, maybe close to three years, pretty intensively. Um I also read a bunch of his books multiple times. So I got right into it. And anyway, I sort of you know, by the time I hit three years, I was like, okay, well I opened a five five thousand dollar account like way back.

you know, probably about six months after I started reading up on trading. And my account it's gone up a little bit and then it's come down a little bit and it's just sort of floated around the opening balance. Like it hasn't moved too far. I haven't lost a great deal of money and I haven't made much money. So I was sort of like You know, time's ticking by, I always sort of feel like there's an urgency and um I was like, I need to change something from so what I'm doing just isn't working.

So yeah, I mean that that's that's pretty much how I got into trading. I don't know if I missed any parts out there.

No, this is good. I want to interject before we get to how the podcast started, because that's the question that's been on my mind, I'm sure everybody else's mind. uh how'd you arrive at this point. Before we move on, I wanna ask about what appealed to you about GAN? I think most people find GAN more in the intermediate part of their trading career. It's interesting to hear somebody who learned about his methods early on in their trading career.

Um seems a bit daunting. Was it the I don't wanna say artistic balance maybe, but the um you don't need to have too much technical understanding of the markets to appreciate

maybe a fractal price pattern or an understanding of Fibonacci to make an analogy, right? Yeah, to be perfectly honest, I mean that was just the first thing that I started learning about. So When I when I went along to the seminar that that one time and I signed up for the education and that sort of thing, it was just that's what they taught.

And I just stuck with it. Like I was always very conscious of not jumping around too much. I didn't want to sort of go from one educator to the other and just sort of spin my wheels. So I just kinda went deeper into that subject'cause I'd already started getting into it. I just went deeper into it, started learning more and more about him and his methods. And I kinda reached a point

where it just seemed a little bit a little bit wishy washy for my liking. I don't know if that's a good way to describe it, but like it was just a little bit open to interpretation I think. And I'm n I'm not saying that it does doesn't work. I I'm not one to say any strategy or any particular way of trading doesn't work because there's always people out there who it works for them, right? I'm just saying for me

I I just wasn't really vibing with it too well. But in saying that, it did give me a good understanding of, you know, ranges, understanding market um kind of moves and structure and that sort of thing. Um different periods like accumulation, distribution, you know, consolidation, all those sorts of different Um, repeating ranges, all that sort of stuff. Like I learnt, I learnt a lot from reading up on GAN. Um, even if it's not

How I directly trade today. Yeah, and I mean that's that leads into uh all sorts of questions. Are you live trading now? Yeah, so I started live trading probably since like about six months into after I started reading. Reading up on the stock market and started like educating myself. I didn't I didn't open a brokerage account and then just And then decide to get educated so I I knew that I had no idea what I was doing. I I gotta get clued up before I put any money into this.

So I took that approach. I sort of studied pretty hard for six months. And there was a little bit of paper trading in there. I didn't paper trade too much. It it for me it wasn't really um

It's hard to have the gravitas of real money, right? Yeah, exactly. And I I sort of struggled with like treating it like real money. Even though I'm like, Oh, that's a losing trade, that's annoying, but it's like you just don't fully get it. Um even though recently I've been paper trading a new strategy, which I'm sure we'll get into a bit later, and I have found it very useful, but at the time, at the very beginning it it just I I couldn't really find much value in it, to be o to be honest. Um

So I know it works for some early on. It didn't really work for me too early on. So anyway. Looks like you had to build the experience to know what would be different. and be cognizant of it. Early on it just seems like I'm not getting something here, but I'm not able to put my finger on what it is that I'm lacking. Yeah, totally. That's uh you pretty much hit the nail on the head. So

Um so yeah, I've been trading I opened a five thousand dollar account um and I'd I'd been trading that sort of ever since. Um and recently I haven't been taking many Um live trades. Um but again I'm sure we'll get to that a little bit later.

It just sounds like you're in a development cycle. This is something that traders routinely go through. They go through uh activity cycles and development cycles. Yeah, sometimes it's best to bunker down, build the strategy, uh, test it as I know we're getting into uh more of the quantitative stuff, but um

It's a pendulum and it swings back and forth and never ceases. Many traders think I'm gonna do a year of development and I'm gonna go make a million dollars for the rest of my life. And I think it's that constant refining uh and honing of the process. A lot of lazy traders don't want to do, and it's no surprise why they don't succeed.

Um I was actually gonna point this out earlier when you're talking about your development on GAN, uh your research and understanding building the bar charts manually. I hope all your listeners pick up on the thing you're really doing right. is you're developing mastery of a specific subject before moving on. Even if that subject isn't going to be useful to you, or I should say profitable, it'll still be useful. Learning how to learn, learning how to evaluate.

Learning how to arrive at an actual conclusion instead of it forever being, well, that might be helpful. I'll hang on to it. you kind of need that finite, you know, nail it down kind of nature. And I think you've al you've succeeded in that from what I've seen. So I mean I don't feel like I I I don't Definitely can't say a master game, but there's there's definitely aspects of of what I learnt from reading up on his material.

that I still use. Um so I don't use like the full package of course, it's my my approach is much different now, but there are certain things which stick with me, you know. I feel that same way about Elliot Wave. I always say I'm so glad I learned Elliot Wave and I'm so glad I don't trade Elliot Wave. So I'm I'm sure I'm gonna inspire some anger from a few Ellioticians out there, but I apologize.

uh to each their own. So does that bring us up to when you're starting the podcast or or are there a few more uh points we want to hit on? Yeah, so I mean from there, that that probably does lead into the podcast. So Obviously I was sort of like three years into this journey. And I'm not seeing huge success and I'm not seeing massive failure either, unless you consider not making money as failure, but at least I wasn't losing.

Hapes. I never blow up any accounts or touch wood. I haven't yet. Yet. There's still many years in your trading career, my friend. And that's an okay thing, by the way. I'm not ragging on Aaron here, giving him a hard time that he's gonna blow up an account. Uh the smartest thing, I think I may have mentioned this in my interview, uh I put the minimum in. So even when I did blow up

on account, it's not the end of the world. It's the most modest loss that you can take. So good on you for being patient. I mean that's another thing I'd uh pat you on the back for. Anyway, continue podcasting. Yeah, so I mean I my my passion for trading sorta gradually got stronger and I was just like

Th there's no point doing this half ass. Like if I wanna actually make tra uh trade and make some serious money doing this, then I need to, you know, give it my full well not say full attention, but I need to give it the attention it deserves. Um so I was sort of like a little bit of a little bit of a little Just in my my circle, I none of my friends were into trading.

Um, you know, none of my family was into it. Just I just didn't know any traders. I had no one who I could speak to about trading um who understood it. Um So there was I felt like I've used this analogy, you've probably heard this ten times, Zach, when I've been speaking to others, but like if you wanna be a mechanic, right, you hang round with people who talk about cars, work on cars, fix cars, you know what I mean?

I wanted to be a trader, yet I didn't know a single trader, so there was kind of a disconnect there, and I felt like that was.

That was partly my issue, is I couldn't learn from anyone who was more experienced. Um So I've always been a fan of podcasts. Um, I always listen to podcasts and I was just like, you know, this would be really cool. I'd love to speak. It could be a really good platform that would allow me to speak with other traders. Um And you know, I can ask them a bunch of questions. It was sort of a podcast that I was looking for, t that I would like to listen to myself, but I couldn't really find

one that sort of really grabbed my attention too much. Mm-hmm. Um, so I was just like, Well, you know, I'll create it myself and I you know, I have the the graphic and web design knowledge which I briefly mentioned earlier.

Um, just sort of, you know, put together a website, you know, just jumped online. If you want to learn anything, you know, you can just jump online these days, looked up how to set up a podcast and just read up on it, brought a bunch of equipment and then just started, yeah, emailing some traders. So Well, I gotta ask, um, and I'm such an old fuddy duddy here, why podcasts as a medium, not to challenge you, but like in such a visual profession. So many charts.

to do a podcast seems almost backwards, but you've had such great success. I mean it's definitely quality of the people you brought on, I'm kidding. Uh a as well as Uh the quality of the interviews, man. I can't tell you how many people I've spoken to who have uh and so I will on behalf of all listeners. Thank you for what you're doing and for putting it out there, man. I hope you know that. And uh probably not the only time I'm gonna thank you on this, man, on behalf of everybody. Um

Go ahead then. Yeah, that's that's a really good question and it was something that kind of did run through my mind. Mm-hmm. It did run through my mind when I um was initially, you know, sort of scheming. But I mean podcasts. Uh you can listen to it anywhere, you know what I mean? Where a video you've gotta be you've gotta be sitting down and you've it's takes your attention, you know what I mean? Like you can't be I mean, a a lot of people listen to podcasts at the gym, driving to work

I know. A bunch of different places. Whereas if you're watching a video, it's you can't be really do you can't really be doing anything else. And so accessible. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, accessible, that's a great word. It was

Yeah, the video and I mean I didn't what was I gonna put on the video? I mean I'd have to ask the guests to sort of share their screen kind of thing and I mean a lot of it When we when we talk about set ups and that kind of thing, would be nice if we could have some visuals and that's maybe something I'll I'll consider, you know, sort of further down the track is how we can maybe sort of work that in.

But like for the part where they're sort of discussing their journey and that sort of thing, like we can get away with it on a podcast, I feel. So I love that you can hear so much emotion and experience and sometimes burden. in traders' voices. Um, you know what I mean? I'm talking to a trader and you just y you you feel like you're talking uh, you know, somebody with a thousand yard stare. Uh and I know you're really good at this. You pick up on the words that people choose.

to describe certain topics. Um I just know. I you're really good at pulling the quotes from each of the article interview or the interviews. Um it's always impressed me when I it was after my interview or something and I I was like, I said that? and I was like, Man, Aaron is smart, he's paying attention to me more than I'm paying attention to me.

Um but it makes it really cool to read through some of the interviews and and find those quotes and hear them hear, you know, the the interviewee say it. Um so definitely I mean I can appreciate the audio is really the most important part of connecting and putting a voice you know, a persona to a name or some charts. It's all very dry and distant and the voice is so, you know, personal and connecting. Yeah, and I mean podcasting it's just um It's just got a little bit more.

It's just so much more engaging than reading a blog article, right? So I mean I could interview someone by email. You know what I mean? I could just turn that into a blog post, like a written blog post. It's not that it you know, I'm sure it would be a good read still, but you can post it on your Geo Cities page back in nineteen ninety nine.

I can't say I know what that is, but that wow. Okay, the age disparity is real. How old are you, Aaron? I've I don't know if you've ever mentioned this on the podcast. Um yeah, I'm twenty four, so God kids these days, man. Twenty five in December. Uh so where'd that come from? Twenty-five in September. You need to review your notes about your birthday. I'm just Oh, I try to forget it. I try to forget it.

It's all good. Dude, I know people are probably impressed and a bit daunted listening to you. When I first met you, I was like, Man, this guy's gonna be in his thirties or so Oh, he's five years younger than me. Great. Great. Um You know I was actually gonna mention

Yeah, well I mean I've got you know, some guys listening, uh you know, uh nineteen, twenty, twenty one, like I was emailing a guy last night who's been listening to the podcast and and reached out and he was only twenty one and I was like, you know Well done man. Like it's a it's great age to get into it. Do you remember the um

Not to put you on the spot here, but the email that you got from the father-son duo who had listened to your podcast while driving cross country. Yeah, yeah, that was that was a really cool one to save actually. I wish I could um Gi I wish I could give them a shout out so I could mention their name, but um yeah, father and son uh dropped me a line to mention that they'd been on a road trip

across um across the state somewhere, I can't remember where it was, but they were on a road trip. It was about ten hours and they smashed out about ten episodes of the podcast. So I was like Wow. Congrats for for putting up with me for that long. Well, and having something cool to discuss and kind of bond over. I I just think it's neat that you're giving people experiences like

far beyond probably what you expected when you started this. And this is another thing. Sorry, I'm I'm, you know, giving you a bunch of praise here. But uh man, you started this in January of twenty fifteen? Mm. What like w What? You know what I I don't know how else to say it other than I'm brutally impressed, man.

Uh you've had a tremendous following and it's just it's it's cool to see it grow and I'm I'm thrilled to hear from people uh still to this day, three months after my interview, I'm sure you hear from every single day, um, who have found some value in this. So Yeah, yeah. Well I mean I definitely like to connect with anyone listening, so I mean I'll just mention it right now. I learned from being on episode eleven where I offered a free consult in in the best of ways.

I was overwhelmed. But uh it's cool to see such a response. I there's no other way to put it and I know you're genuine in offering to reach out to be where have people reach out to you. Yeah. So I mean if anyone wants to drop me a line at any point, just shoot me an email. My email address is just Aaron at ChatwithTraders dot com. Otherwise just hit me up on Twitter at ChatwithTraders. But yeah, um that's that's a bit of a side note. Um so where were we? So

Um, I was gonna ask you actually about swing trading versus day trading, because when I first met you, uh you know so many months ago I'm kidding, back in January, uh, you were predominantly a swing trader, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I've always swing traded since I very s first started reading up and and learning about how to trade, how to become a trader. Uh swing trading was just sort of

Again, it was just the first thing that I was introduced to and I just sort of stuck with it. Um I always knew about day trading but I never gave it a I never attempted it or or bothered to read up on it because all the material that I had on GAN and I don't mean to keep bringing up GAN but um It was it was all swing trading. It was all swing trading. And um

So it could be anywhere from holding a position to, you know, a couple days to potentially a couple of weeks. Um And I kinda liked that I kinda liked that approach because I mean, you know, like a a lot of swing traders, I had a job.

You know, I was working um I used to do shift work a little bit, but for the most part I was, you know, working during the day. So I couldn't really watch the market too closely during the day. Um Yeah, so with my swing trading, once I sort of started to move away from GAN, I Like I mentioned, I took some aspects that I really liked from his methods and just some other things that I I'd observed, just some particular setups.

And I just tried to refine those a little bit and just get a bit more specific. on on what I was actually trading. Um because with his approach there's a lot of variables and a lot of different things to take into consideration. I tried to sort of Almost dumb it down a little bit and just try and set myself some rules, create like a bit of a trading plan and say I trade this setup and this setup looks like you know A, B, C, D.

I think we were joking about this before. Like most people go to war, get shot a bunch, come back, try and take boot camp, aren't really motivated to go through it's such a backwards process and it's so refreshing to hear uh somebody, especially as a novice in the stock market, so to speak, uh, who's that diligent and disciplined. I mean

Yeah. I mean I'm not saying that this this approach led me to huge success because it hasn't yet, but um i it it was just an approach that made sense to me at the time I was doing it. Um so I did that. And I was taking And I would take these I would take these trades, you know, as they came up, as I saw them, as I saw them setting up, I'd, you know, take these trades, I'd trade them with a live account.

Um, you know, a lot of them would lose. Occasionally I'd get a winning trade. Um and I'd sort of go back over them, I'd try and see what the differences were, you know, just that usual sort of thing. Um And try and refine my rules a little bit. Um But this particular setup, so my swing trading setup, so I I try to narrow it down, dumb it down, like I said, and just focus on, you know, one particular setup which had a couple variables. And

This setup sort of didn't come around too often. Like it wouldn't be strange for me to be out of the market for a couple weeks at a time. And I sort of had the idea that if I wanna excel my learning curve then I need to be get more screen time in. And I need to be, you know, sitting out of the market for three weeks while I'm still checking it each day, you know, end of day.

it's not very exciting and I feel like I'm it's slowing down my learning process. So that was about the time when when, you know, we were introduced by Peter Zhang and um You sort of introduced me to VWAP uh and the VWAP sort of the the strategy that you were trading and and those sorts of methods. So that kind of led me into intraday trading to kind of fill that gap of

having periods where I was out of the market for a few weeks at a time waiting for a setup to come around. And that was a great pun with Gap, by the way, I have to comment on that. I'm just kidding. Are you ready to get serious about trading? Then join Tasty Trade, Investopedia's best platform for options trading in 2026. Stocks, options, futures, and more. Tasty Trade has everything you trade all in one platform. Get low commissions, including zero commission on stocks.

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Um, you notice also what you're identifying, I just want to point this out, is that you had you needed more quick like uh response time in your signals. You needed to know if you were right or wrong more than once every six weeks. Yeah. You know what I mean? Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It like I said, it's it's just like dragging out that that learning process too much. Like I feel like I've, you know

Already been doing this for a few years. Let's try and speed things up a bit. If you're not careful, you're gonna be my age, man. You're gonna be an old fart at twenty nine. So I'm just kidding. Yeah, better watch out. So this is when we started talking, we were uh speaking more intraday, and this gets you into a bit of quantitative trading, although uh we're both a bit nascent quantitative traders, right? Hmm.

Yeah, so this is probably gonna lead me on a bit of a tangent here, and I'm not saying that it's right. I'm just saying this is kind of where I'm at in my head right now, and I mean the more I learn, the more I'm starting to see things like this. Sure. So let's say you've got a particular setup or you've got a strategy. Okay, so you can um you can look at a chart and you can say this is where I would have entered.

This is where I would have exited and that would have been a winning trade. Right? Following the rules that you've mentioned and your trading plan and your setup, that would have resulted in a winning trade right right there. But if you were to take that same strategy and that same setup and approach

And look at a hundred other charts, you're gonna see that strategy and that signal, whatever you wanna call it, where it's triggered and it would have resulted in a losing trade. So How do you know if there's a genuine edge to that setup? if you don't have the hard if you don't have numbers to to put to it. So you don't know

How many times that setup is expected to result in a profit, how many times that set up is expected to result in a loss, you you have no idea. You know that sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. But You see see you I was I'm just very unclear on h how you know if there's an edge in that setup. Mm-hmm. Uh does that make sense? I don't know if I explain that very well.

No, I know what you mean. Most traders exist in this like state of unknowing. And then so it's a commonplace of I've seen great examples of success on the charts in front of me. I've also seen terrible failures. I kind of believe that I'm going to intrinsically find more successes than failures. But if I don't really know with what likelihood I'm gonna find a winner or a loser, I can't really calculate a viable risk reward that'll generate profit consistently for me.

That state of unknowing is what keeps people from being quantitative traders. They're afraid of what if I'm wrong? What if I find out I have no edge? Like but I'd always ask like what what if you find out you do have an edge? This is the we talked about this before, the inescapable truth of quantitative trading. Like you have to know one way or another.

If you have an edge, you deserve to be trading with that confidence. And if you don't have an edge, you have to know that right now. You have to find that out as soon as possible to avoid future losses. Yeah, so that particular, you know, swing trade setup that I'd that I that I kind of mentioned before, that I'd that I'd focused in on and just train that particular setup with a couple of variations like

I knew that sometimes resulted in a very nice winning trade and it I knew it also resulted in losses a you know, s sometimes. So I didn't know Without without knowing I if I was to take if I was to trade that a hundred times where I would where I would stand at the end of that hundred trades. I don't know if I'd be up or down. You know what I mean?

going to be good. I mean it's a very different uh you operate from a different point of confidence and clarity. You kind of remove the emotion when it's not you're hoping for this to work out because you don't know.

But rather you've already asked and answered those questions. Yeah, so this kind of led me into uh wanting to learn how to code and kind of led me in that sort of quantitative direction of trading. Uh so I mean still in the very, very early stages of that. Um, and I mean, you know, you were partly responsible for sort of leading me into

In in that direction just to a certain extent with um I'll take the credit or the blame, whatever it ends up being. Like, um you sort of introduced me to uh Think Script at least and um you know Yeah, we sort of started going through some Think Script documentation. I started reading up on the the Think Script um manual on the website. In just a little context for people who may not know, ThinkScript is a JavaScript derivative used by TD Meritrade's thinkorswim.

The reason why I thought this would be a good starting point for someone like Erin is it's free, it's pretty accessible, it's well documented, and I happen to know it inside and out, so I felt like it was a good starting point for us. But I gotta be honest, Aaron, I've never seen anybody take to code like you have

Um and I I know you're gonna be humble and say, well, I'm still working on it, but I've been very impressed. I gave you the assignment, quote unquote, of looking at the manual three days later. You come back and you're like, yeah, take a look at this script. My God. Um Yeah, I mean I think that's partly because I come from having the knowledge in web design. So I mean I know a little bit of CSS, I know some basic HTML, but I mean I know you don't build an algorithm out of CSS but it's sort of

I'm not completely code illiterate, if that makes sense. So I mean I've got a little bit of an understanding on how you might kind of put something together. Even though when we start dealing with languages like ThinkScript and I've more recently started getting into Python.

uh which is pretty exciting or for me anyway. Um it's a very, very steep learning curve. But I th I think that's having that sort of web design background I don't I don't know that's a huge benefit, but it just sort of made me think that, you know, well it sounds like organizationally that would benefit anybody just to have considered well what components am I gonna need to build a web page. Um and I don't know if you can code an algo in CSS but if you did it'd be a beautiful and well organized

Uh cascading algorithm. No, I'm just kidding. Um no I'm certain I'm certain that helped you. Uh having a predilection or predisposition is really the right word to code. You've seen it before. You've experienced it before, you've had errors before, things haven't displayed properly, and you've had to debug them. So it's like you're talking about the logic.

of any code, as well as a little bit of syntax. And I've noticed the same thing with CSS. There's a lot of parallels between that and JavaScript, um, which probably led you to your early development in ThinkScript and now moving, like you said, more towards Python. Mm.

Yeah, absolutely. So I mean something that I haven't really You know, obviously we speak quite often, but I haven't really spoken to you too much about this topic, and that is how I have been getting quite deep into Python, um or starting trying to learn it. you know, putting a lot of time into it. And I've sorta set a goal for myself to have I know it's a little bit vague right now, but to have some sort of automated trading signal or s setup that is automated.

And in roughly about six months. So sort of by the end of the year, I'm hoping that I can be somewhere close to having an automated trading signal. And that that signal would look something like this. It would be a swing trade. Uh set up. So it'd be based off technical analysis and certain like you know, chart patterns. It would probably hold trades for, you know, a couple days to maybe a week or two, and it would run through interactive brokers. So that's kind of how I picture it.

And anybody who's thinking out there, man, six months to go fully automated, I I think you have to consider how smart Aaron's being about the finite or like discrete kind of um Not to say simple, but the straightforward nature of what you might define as an automated system. It just has to be something that you trust the output of because you've tested it. Doesn't have to be a twenty component

intermarket analysis signal. It can be buying a moving average crossover near the two hundred moving average or whatever you want.

uh it can be something very straightforward. So uh I think it's good on you to keep it limited and gives you an attainable goal, especially early on. You can always expand from there. Yeah. So something I probably wanted to ask you was Setting myself a goal of of trying to achieve that in six months, I don't know if that's a little bit naive.

considering I've never gone through this process of identifying a signal, testing it, and you know, go through the different processes of taking that trade to a level where it's then automated, plugged into your broker. Is six months is that a little bit ambitious or like how achievable do you think that is? Well, okay, so we have to examine this um at the time frame that you're trying to trade. So given it's a swing system, I think that's smart. It's kind of the Goldilocks approach.

If you're trying to trade on the shortest of terms, you know, an automated day trading system, you gotta consider execution routes, market impact, slippage, commissions, all these things, because you're in a frequently trading system. not even HFT, I'm just talking about an automated intraday system. On the other end of the spectrum, if you're a portfolio manager, you have all sorts of other considerations, fundamentals, intermarket moves, as I was kind of joking about before. Um

I think you're doing it right by approaching it from the most accessible point. You're kind of trying to establish a beachhead of What if I did have a signal that I had vetted, I had evaluated, I had tracked for months, and I understood intimately, I'd feel comfortable deploying that uh, you know, automatically.

That's smart began it's and it's definitely doable within six months. I think if you'd go to portfolio management, that's a million other problems you haven't even considered yet. Intraday trading, another million problems in a different direction. So, um, you're riding the knife's edge of potential here, Aaron. Not to make it sound dire, but

I I think it's very doable. And also given your coding background uh and you seem to have found a a good few dozen expert traders to talk to. One or two of them may know a thing or two about code you could talk to. I'm pretty sure you're gonna you're gonna bang this out. Some. Yeah, yeah. Well, I certainly hope so. I mean, that's sort of why I've why I've been leaning towards Python, obviously living outside of the state.

I can't uh fund uh fund an account with Thinkorswim and I I believe Thinkorswim do have uh do have the capacity to deal with automation, is that correct? They do, but uh here I'll show my true colors. I promise guys I'm not a thinker swill a thinker swim shill. Uh they are pretty expensive. And so if you're talking automated trading,

The biggest worry for me is that uh you would have twenty trades a day and commissions would eat your lunch. So it's smart of you to probably work with something a little lower commission and a little more flexible that has a good API like interactive brokers. Um I've heard

pretty much nothing but good things about them. I I actually spoke to other traders in the past few days who've been working on the I B API and and they had good things to say about it too, so Um you notice what you're doing is you're trying to do this efficiently.

You're not devoting your entire life, you know, twenty hours a day and barely sleeping to learning Python. Um, but similarly you're not so far removed from it that you're not gonna get anywhere. I think you're setting attainable goals for yourself. And look at how this parallels a trader's like profit and loss development. When you set unattainable goals, can you blame yourself for failing? Not really. You can blame yourself for setting shitty goals.

So similarly by saying I'm not trying to develop the n next HFT and I'm not going to build a massive portfolio system, I'm going to bast back test a signal. I'm going to evaluate and vet and then approve the signal. And then I'm gonna start it and we'll see where it goes. That could be trading once a week. It could be trading a couple times a week. It depends on how selective you are. But I think you're being reasonable about it.

So if nothing else, maybe talking to uh, you know, twenty five veterans of the market has has aged you a bit and scared you. Um, you know, you're keeping it keeping it real, which is which is smart. So Yeah, yeah. So I mean I'm pretty excited. I mean learning learning Python and and this sort of quantitative approach um

I find it fascinating. It it's it's really interesting to me. So um Well and let's go back to the thing we say we were saying before about you have to know one way or another. There's that great Mike Bellafiore quote that you were telling me before. Do you remember it? Yeah, so when I m uh interviewed Mike and I was thrilled to to get the opportunity to speak with him, Mike Bellafiore, he he mentioned a quote which really stuck with me and that was um a lot of traders confuse a la

Uh psychology with a lack of edge. So I'll repeat that. A lot of traders confuse psychology with a lack of edge. And I mean that that just really stuck with me. Um and I mean that sort of came back to that point which I tried to explain earlier, I don't know how clear I was, but like how do you know if you have an edge? Mm-hmm. Like if you can't put any numbers to to what you can expect from trading a particular setup, then how do you know if there's a genuine edge?

to be had in that. And I mean I'm not saying that you can't make money as a discretionary trader at all. Definitely not saying that. I'm just saying this is like sort of the train of thought that I have right now. It feels like it's more personally exacting. You have to be right, you have to be precise. Yeah, I think we were joking about this before. It's like um It's like the idea of a tongue twister, right?

humans are not good at being uh you know precise and doing these repetitive tasks always and uh it's just it's asking too much of us to be a hundred percent right or or to be a hundred percent you know buying the low, selling the top. I think it's very smart to to adopt the quantitative approach. You're right. But but definitely we both know many successful discretionary traders, so who who are we to judge, right? Totally. Absolutely. So yeah, all right. Well let's uh let's keep this moving.

So uh it's funny'cause the next topic I had for you was just tied to the Mike Bellafire quote. The what are some other maybe quotes uh or episodes? um that have stuck with you. This is something that I've always cu you know, wanted to know your your uh view on. What are some episodes that you think people should go and listen to that maybe they may not have caught the first time? Yeah, so probably

probably a couple of the interviews which I I feel probably deserve a little bit more attention than maybe what they did receive. Um Would maybe be uh Tim Walker's interview. So I spoke with him on episode six. And um funny enough that was actually the very first interview I ever ever recorded, so

From my side it's a little bit sketchy, but um Tim definitely delivers some great insights and he is a gang trader. Um but even if you're not interested in that type of thing, I think it's still well worth a listen because

i the the majority of the interview i is based on just sort of general trading foundations. Um it's it's really good one to check out. So and then probably the other one is more recent and um I'm not being biased because I know Um this is this is David Bush who who mentored you as you were coming up. His interview I found really, really interesting, especially like a lot of his answers um were almost kind of inspiring.

um from how he's come from sort of like a musician background. He's been a discretionary trader for many years. And then he's gradually taught himself to um to creating what he described as like a meta system where he's got like up to thirty to fifty sort of different strategies all sort of tied into one um and how he now uses that to just sort of Views views train in a totally different way. So now like

um overseas trades. Instead of jumping on a trade and hoping that's gonna result in a profit. He doesn't really care if there's a few losers, um, just as as long as the overall result is positive. That's that really smart like quantitative trader distance. that um and you know an algo trader will try and adopt of this doesn't reflect poorly on me if a trade doesn't work. I'm in charge of overseeing all these things. It's like being a manager.

Do you feel bad if one of your employees has to get fired? Like, yeah, look, that that's unpleasant, but it's not your fault. Most likely, right? um it just didn't work out with the employee. And very similarly, having that um oversight or overseeing, I've always loved about Dave that he was really articulate. Like you're right about the answers being almost inspiring.

I think about like I I could take a year to write a white paper that wouldn't sound as good as the stuff he says off the cuff half the time. But uh yeah. Well you've had I mean, you've had so many great traders on um What can I say? I definitely liked uh Tim Walker as well, episode six, and and of course Dave, episode twenty three. So Yeah, so those would those would probably be like the two interviews which I think everyone should should probably listen to. I mean I'm probably saying Dave

A little bit more so because um he's definitely in that quantitative space which has really grabbed me right now. So I mean that's another reason why I found that really fascinating but Uh yeah, definitely Dave's interview and and Tim Walker's and I mean I mean I don't wanna try and like single out those two and say they were the best. But like yeah, I mean everyone everyone is like giving incredible answers so I'm really grateful for everyone who's

you know, given up their time and and been open for an interview'cause ever I mean, everyone's been really honest with their answers, so no one's really shied away from anything and try to, you know, squirm their way out of it. It's been it's been really good. And credit to you for being humble, uh, salt brag on your behalf, but the ebook as well.

uh that you recently put out. I'm obviously honored to be in that as well. But uh some great responses from the other traders. I loved getting to go through and see what other people would have said. Um it's just such a

down to earth kind of like what what if you could go back five years in time and speak to yourself. What do you wish you could have told or you know, not five years necessarily, maybe many, many more years, uh, if you're a more experienced trader, but just uh it's cool to hear I say this the insight you would have given to yourself.

Yeah, or you would you know would have given to others or you could give to others right now. Yeah. It's like that that one lesson that you wish someone would have told you. I mean that's what the book's called. So if if anyone's listening and they haven't had a chance to check that out. Um just go to I can't remember the direct link to it, but if you just go to chatwithraders.com, you'll see ebook

as a link in the top menu. Um so you can go there, check that out, um, and download that. It's free to download. And this this brings us to a good a good point. So you had a piece in that book, Zach, and that was um the one thing that you wish someone would have told you when you were sort of starting out.

And that was um you mentioned you would like you wish someone would have said that you need to disassociate yourself from the identity, the image and the persona of being a trader. So what exactly does this mean to you like and and why is that important? I just think that so many traders are in this game to tell other people that they're traders. I think so much of it is the

I wanna say like badge of courage, like you know, it's the thing we wear, the chip there we go, the the chip of of courage that we wear on our shoulders. You know what I'm saying? Uh we've got a chip on our shoulder. Like i it's the ego and mentality uh I don't want to say machismo because I've seen it in female traders too, but uh this kind of uber over competitiveness, feeling that they need to prove it to everyone around them.

The truth is that nobody really cares and nobody values it that highly anyway. Most people don't understand what you do, don't care what you do. They think you're a gambler in any case. It's up to you to prove them wrong. not prove them wrong like by talking a big game, it's not by prove them wrong by having enough monitors, although I'll be honest I'm pretty guilty of that. I've got five sitting in front of me here. But uh you know it's the trappings and uh

kind of fluff, I think I called it, that we tell ourselves when we don't have an edge about, you know, I'm gonna be something one day. I'm so close. I I hear that all the time, uh, from my my trading students. I'm I'm this close, Zach. I just gotta get, you know, the next and everybody is that close to something in their life. Um Yeah, go ahead. Yeah, so let me just cut in there and Yeah. For those who do feel like they're so close but just not quite there, I mean I think I mean I feel like that

for for quite a while. I mean I'm still not there. But now I've realised that I am quite a way away. But like Wha why do they feel like they're so close but just not quite there? Like something's just not clicking yet. Like what what's the reason for that? Hm. Like why do they feel that way?

Yeah. Um you know we were talking about it before with the kind of I can observe a single chart that works. I will never know about the ninety-nine others that don't. Traders are not pretty honest with themselves about tracking a system or strategy. Um Cherry picking is prevalent. Curve fitting is throughout this industry, especially at the retail level, because you get guys who are not knowledgeable enough to back test or to do an uh an appropriate or robust back test.

they just find anecdotal evidence. And I think I'd said something on my podcast about intuitive, anecdotal, and mathematical. Like you've gotta have all three. It can't just be I've seen this happen before, and therefore it is a rule and this is my strategy, and I will continue to find great charts like this.

You know, you may have found the uh the far right edge of the distribution, let's say. You may have found the best trade, and you're holding that as the kind of most frequent occurrence in the data set. I don't think people have a lot of perspective on how far they might be. And so maybe this is something that I would credit you with. You are humble and self-aware in that by talking to many other expert traders,

you realize like my God, these guys are still struggling through it and developing and they're twenty, twenty-five years into this business. If I'm five years into this business, how much more development must I have ahead of me? And so you're you're you've been humbled without having to pay the tuition. Does that make sense? You've not blown up an account, but you've learned from many others who have.

I don't think a lot of traders are aware of the misfortunes of others around them. They're not realistic about how eighty percent of traders are g are gone every year. They just stop trading and a new uh eighty percent I'm um Definitely kind of um uh incorrect in these statistics, but you see what I'm saying about there's a high turnover rate. in this profession. Uh I don't know. No doubt. I mean that's that kind of uh reminds me of something Adam Grimes mentioned when I interviewed him on

What was that? That was episode twenty one. And he was another great interviewer too. Yeah, yeah, no doubt. He was like, You you never arrive as a trader. Like you don't reach a level and you're like, Okay, I'm now a trader. I've made it You're like he's like you're all you just become a trader. You just always I'm not explaining this very well with doing it justice. that it's a never ceasing swinging of the pendulum. You don't just develop for a year and then go be a trader.

You develop, you trade. You develop, you trade. You develop, you trade. And eventually you're ninety years old and you're a multi billionaire and you stop trading. I mean that's that's the plan, right? Uh That would be the ultimate. Six months from now, an automated strategy. Twenty years from now, the world. Uh yeah, I think I don't know. Um Uh I mean it just it ties in perfectly I think with what we're saying about the it's a continual process and the people who

Maybe that's why people feel they're so close. And think about that. That's actually really funny that it ties in. When you think there's a destination in mind, you're always so close. Just one more day of travel, just one more hour, just one more mile. But what if it was about the journey? What if it really was just about driving?

You never would focus on how close or how far you were. You're just driving. Mm. Yeah. Do you see where I'm kinda going with this? For the sake of the drive. I don't mean to get too cheesy and philosophical. I know we're all here for the money too, but And this speaks to why traders often don't get where they're trying to go. The market and this is a Denise Schull, I believe, quote, about the market as a mirror, it represents whatever you need it to represent. For many of us it's the

the thing ever out of our reach. We're never gonna master all of the market. We're never gonna nail it down. But the challenge, the chase, the puzzle, the struggle, it's all part of some self betterment process that often parallels what's going on in your life. And actually we've talked about this on the pre call too. life and work balance. Finding time to be a trader.

But also finding time to be a human being outside of trading. I've definitely spent many a many a month or a week, you know, zoned in on this and uh could have done better on the life balance side. So I'll admit to that. Yeah, that's it's very easy to do that. It's uh I think we're all guilty of that to to assume that's it. It wasn't so damn exciting and then we'd uh we'd give up on it after a while and and go do something normal, but It's the you know what I'm saying about the ever uh

the ever further away s you know, goal. It's kind of inspiring in a way. It's um something to chase after. Yeah. You know? Totally, totally. Well, I mean we've been we've been chating for about an hour or so now, so I mean we should probably probably start to wrap this up, but are there any sort of Is there anything I've maybe missed or anything you'd like to add to the to add to the conversation and maybe some topics we might have skipped over?

Well, you remember we came up with that really funny kind of four stage development of the trader. Guys, before we were on this call, uh Aaron and I were talking a little bit about how traders develop and the commonality of their development and how some traders do things very differently, but

I don't mean to put words in your mouth there and I'll I'll take I'll take like I said, credit or blame for this quote but uh you know the force. Go ahead, go ahead. Yeah, so you were mentioning that like a lot of traders they start out and they they make money. Um and they have no idea why. Yeah, and then they lose money and they still don't know why.

Yeah. And then they they're still losing money but they know why. They realize that they have some idea of what's going on. And then eventually start making money and know the reasons for it. So it's kinda like those four stages kind of thing. So Do you want to just sort of elaborate on that a little bit further?

Yeah, yeah. I mean I just think it's funny the like parallelism of the construction of that phrasing. Like you make money but don't know why, you lose money but don't know why, you lose money but kind of figure out why, and eventually maybe you make money and know why. Stage two is the elephant graveyard of traders. That is where so so many careers have ended.

in the losing money and not knowing why. I know that's not groundbreaking. I think many people find themselves at that point right now probably. I hope you're inspired to recognize that like it's minimizing the money lost. relative to the amount of experience gained. And so this is kind of like another traderism of you'll always pay the tuition, but will you attend the class?

Do you see what I'm saying? Like everybody's gonna lose some money. It might take you five dollars, five hundred dollars, five thousand dollars, five hundred thousand dollars. to learn the lessons of the market. And everybody's moving at a different speed. I mean this is like what we were saying about the paralleling of life development too. Uh everybody is progressing through life at a different speed, a and that's okay. Uh it's the people who pay attention and uh

try and learn these lessons early. So I, you know, after this interview, I'm gonna go hop in a time capsule, go back five years in time and read that entire ebook to myself. Um then I'll call you from my yacht in the future because you know I'll be a millionaire at that point. So it's finally. It's finally. Right. And we'll I'm sure we'll expound more on that in the future. I think that's a great topic. Like

the path of a trader. What is common? What is typical? What should people pay attention to? You know, so often it's like we learn these things after the fact because that's when we build the experience.

Man, I gotta I'll throw in another thank you. You are doing a great service to the community of traders by putting other great traders and yourself now, finally, ha out there, uh f as an example for others. I mean it's it's just brilliant and Like I said in I think a Twitter message or retweet. Where were you five years ago? Where were you when I was learning how to trade? Like why didn't I have this?

Uh, it would have been phenomenal. So Aaron, sincer sincerely, man, on behalf of everybody, thank you so much. And thanks for coming on the uh coming on your own broadcast. And uh it it was a pleasure to have you on your broadcast and uh No, sincerely, man, it was it was it was good fun and um looking forward to to continuing conversations and and that auto strategy in six months time.

Yeah, for sure. So I'll have to keep everyone updated on now, th now that I've that I've put it out there, I can't um go back on it now. So bit a bit a knuckle down. But um Yeah, thanks so much for doing this, Zach. It was um it was really good to sort of get you to come in and kind of take my seat, um, and and swap sides uh for this episode. So we sort of changed it up a little bit. But um yeah, I mean I hope

swap sides of the earth. When you said change seats, I was thinking, man, it's gonna take me twenty five hours to get there. Whoa. We are on diametrically opposite sides of this planet, guys. I'm in Cincinnati, Ohio. And Aaron is in Brisbane, Australia. Yeah, well that's that's a really good point. Um but yeah, so if anyone wants to get in touch with you, Zach, where's how's the best way to do that?

Yeah, sure, you can shoot me an email at Trading Coach Z or Trading Coach Z for those of you in the States. That's T-R-A-D-I-N-G-C C-O-A-C-H-Z at gmail.com. Or you can always hit me up on uh Twitter at Zach Herwitz.

All right, good one. And if anyone wants to get in touch uh with me for any reason, um more than happy to to speak with you know anyone. I mean That was partly my reason for starting this podcast, like I mentioned right at the start, that I'm, you know, keen to connect with other traders and, you know, just build a bit of a community and you know, bounce ideas off each other and just kind of help each other out. So I mean my email address is Aaron at chatwithraders.com

And my Twitter handle is at ChatwithTraders. So you can catch me on either one of those. And um yeah, I will um We'll have to do this again sometime, Zach, and um yeah, drill down on things a little bit more. I think six months and one day.

From now we're gonna have to have another interview. No, I'm kidding. Don't anyone mark that in your calendars. I'm just giving you a hard time, Aaron. Thank you so much for having me on, man. It's always a pleasure and uh anytime. No trouble. Alright guys, take care and um take care, Zach. We'll speak to you soon. Welcome to the end of this episode of Chat with Traders, but don't worry, more great episodes are on the way. And we'd like to-