Vol. 9: Matt Barnes & Stephen Jackson - Part 1

either gonna be me or you. And whether that man basketball fighting hard foul I was trying to eat were scrutinizes on TV. We was talking about TV. We was shown been arrested on TV and taking the gail TV not the fan we were, Stevie, I got a feeling. I know what the tears are about, but what are they about? Welcome to Charges with me, Rex Chapman. I'm very excited to announce that not only will this be our first episode with two guests at one time, it

will also be our first two part episode series. That's how engrossing and important my conversation was with my guests Steven Jackson and Matt Barnes. There are men who are both NBA champions and award winning podcast professionals with their show All the Smoke from Showtime, Basketball, Black Effect, and I Heart Radio. Before becoming a pillar in sports media or podcasting, a former athlete needs to check a lot

of boxes during and after their career. They must be opinionated, outspoken, charismatic while having a pinch of calculated and controlled crazy. This is Charges. Welcome to Charges. I'm your host, Rex Chapman. In my day, there really wasn't an outlet for athletes who felt they were misunderstood, or had different opinions, or even just didn't want to talk through a filter. Everything

had to be done through a mouthpiece. Off In that mouthpiece was a journalist, writer, television personality team or PR rep. Someone that was not you yourself. They didn't know your life, your experiences, and yet they were tasked with trying to take you and your life and turn it into a story. Thankfully, in many ways, it's not like that anymore. The way we learn about athletes has changed. The filter can come off, the fans can get a more intimate experience, and the

athletes they can be themselves. My guest today, well, they made a career out of being themselves on and off the court. They're both NBA champions. They're both known as great teammates, hard workers, and guys who weren't afraid of grinding in their careers. They also have helped pioneer the format of athletes talking to athletes in an unscripted and authentic way with their podcast All the Smoke. It's my pleasure to welcome Stephen Jackson and Matt Barnes to Charges.

How are you, gentlemen, Welcome to my home court. Charge it up? Oh g, I'm glad to be here. You know you raised me, so it's only right I'll be here. That That was a great opening monologue. Man, that was serious. Right, that's probably my best introduction ever. I appreciate that. There we go, There we go. It's it's all up here. We'll talk about some of the ship, but yeah, we'll talking about the good stuff too. You know, Uh, where did you both grow up? And did you know that

basketball was gonna take you places professionally? Matt, let's start with you. I grew up moved around a little bit, uh you know, Dad, so drugs. We bounced around a little bit from the Bay Area, to Sacramento. Um, I was actually a football player first. You know, I grew up playing football watching my dad played football. He used to play tagle football on the street. And as I got taller, I started kind of picking up basketball. So I didn't really take basketball serious until maybe the end

of junior high. I mean I was always playing in leagues, but just you know, football was always my heart, my passion. Um in high school was an All American and in football and basketball, and just felt like there was gonna be some more longevity in basketball. Um, although my career to get started was a grind in a roller coaster ship actually, my whole career was was a grind in a roller coaster. But you know, once I after that two thousand six, uh seven, we believe team I kind

of became a household name. But um, you know, basketball up until college was kind of it was really you know, what do you want to do? Football or basketball? So again chose basketball, had a fifteen year career and uh man, they've been able to pivot out of that into media. So it's been a fun grind amazing how how uh what position in football? I was a receiver, So yeah, receiver.

I led the nation in touchdowns my senior year, you know, I had like fifty three catches for twelve yards and twenty eight touchdowns, so like every other catch with a touchdown. So literally football was my first sport, but and was recruited by everyone for football too. But like I said, looking at the longev at the time, you know, coming out of high school, there wasn't any six eight receiver, so I didn't really have anything to model myself after.

I kind of understand if there's gonna be some longevi in this space. Although Harold Carmichael, you know, back in the eighties with the Philadelphia Eagles. But outside of that, there wasn't really guys my size doing what I did, So I took the other route withhe there's plenty of guys my side is doing it and made a career out of it. Jack What about you, jack O? G It started for me. I was born and raised in

Houston and Third War Area arrest of police George Ford. Um, but I was raised and put out the Texas about an hour and a half away, but mom moved to put off the one. I was like four or five years old, and um, you know the saying you just slang rock. I have a wicked jump shot. UM. I grew up in that type of area and UM, I didn't know I was chalented until that I had a chance, which I was like eight nine, and I played in the game at the y m c A and we had the final score was forty four to forty two.

I had forty two our points. Everybody around me knew, you know, but this kid has something. And and doing my career, you know, doing growing up and put out the Texas. I did so many things that could have ruined my life, that could have stopped me from making it this far. But my city put out the Texas. The people in my city took care of me because they saw something in me that I didn't as a youngster.

So I give a lot of problems to my city for protecting me and shield to meet from from all the trouble and drama that was going on in my city. And my family put me in positions to you know, go to o Kill. I want to stay championship and put out the Texas in my high school and I went to oak Kill. UM ended up signing with the University of Arizona and not getting in in school because I didn't pass my test because I didn't take school serious.

And they end up winning the national championship my freshman year. Yeah, so I end up missing not on national championship Arizona. But the best that it was a blessing. Guard always had his um hands over man, always had me covered during that year, Mike. Maybe mom didn't want me to go back to Port Author because she knew the trouble and the and the game banging, all the stuff that I was into as a kid, and she told me

to stay with her. Well, I did not know she had a relationship with the Son's organization, and as you know, she woke me up one morning and brought me down there to play pick up with you guys, which I had no idea where I was going. And I ended up playing well and I ended up getting drafted with the only pick that the Sun has had that year, and you were there, so and that's when my career started. But I had no idea or no clue that I'll make it to the NBA. But when I got the opportunity,

shout out, Danny Age. When I got the opportunity, I never back. Man. I remember like it was yesterday. You came down and we had a squad. I mean, this was Steve's rookie year, nash rookie year, Jason Kidd kJ and what stood out You were the first guy you It was and one kind of era, but you were the first NBA player. I remember you came in and you had this move where it was kind of like a crossover but it would hit hit the floor and then hit your shin and then hop back up into

the same hand. And man, we all were dying like you made several people fall down, and it was just something we had never seen before. But also you were wildly athletic. Uh, you could tell that you were gonna be a pro, but you just you were so young, Steve so young, I had to bounce around. I had to bounce around. Uh. They drafted me and guaranteed me twift was a blessing because it changed my life and

I ended up breaking both of my feet. They sent me to the c b A and I when they sent me to Australia and I broke both of my feet and bounced around a couple of years. But I think the Suns and I think you all because just opening that door for somebody people don't know if you just open the door for somebody sometimes that's all they need. And the Danny Angel and the Sons, you guys did that for men. I'm forever appreciative. Yeah, well, you can't

just fake six eight and skilled. That's what That's what you guys are. That's what you guys are. You're both champs NBA Champs, which is amazing, especially since you were both second round picks. Well traveled. Uh do you guys talk about that amongst yourselves. Not much, We don't talk about it. I think, Uh, for the most part, I think that's what makes us inseparable. That's what makes the respect that we have each other because we both know

we've been through the grind. You know, we don't need applause from the outside audience for us to know what we went through to get to where we at. You know, we know, we know the ground we've been through, and its respected between brothers. You know, I've been with Matthews some tough times in his life. He's been around me through some tough times in my life. So knowing that we both went through the grind, knowing that nothing was given,

we earned everything. I think that conversation that we don't need to have because there's respect for each other is already there. Yeah, you know, we don't really sit again to kind of piggyback up what he said and kind of go down memory lane. Like I said, we knew it was a grind, but you know, we've transitioned into this space and still kind of being underdogs, but really creating our own way, similar to what we did in

the NBA. You know, neither of us knew we would be in this media space and and having the success we had. You know, we were both respectively working for ESPN and Fox at the time, and you know, just getting a lot of really good feedback, and you know, someone said, no, you guys need to do something together. And we were like, okay, what is that? And you know, I hit Jack, I'm like, let's let's do a podcast, and he's like, what's the podcast. I'm like, shoot, I

don't know, but I'm gonna figure it out. Uh. And then uh, one of our guys, E who was the producer on All the Smoke, he actually filmed um he did a DeMarcus Cousins documentary and I spoke on it. And after we were just kind of chopping it up, and that's what I was doing. And you know, we talked about the possible podcasts, like you need to talk to Showtime. They have a Showtime Basketball they're about to launch.

You guys would be perfect. So know, I kind of took that ran with it, kind of just dry pitched Brian Daily kind of with my vision and who my partner was at the time. They didn't understand like where Jack would fit, like it's just you. I'm just like, no, it's me and Jack. Like so Jack comes on sometimes I'm like, no, Jack is my co host to this show, and this is how it's gonna work. And if it Jack's not my co host, I can't do it, you

know what I mean. So they learned Jack quick fell in love with them quick and understood what I saw on him. And you know, now, you know a little bit over a year year in the Space Man, we we've come in and in one Sports Podcast of the Year from My Heart last year and nominated for a

bunch of different awards this year. So, you know, definitely humbled by the experience, but just kind of excited because, like you said in your opening, it's always been other people telling our stories, and now we have the ability to tell our own stories and uh, you know, have the ability for other players to feel comfortable enough to let them walls down because you know, Rex will tell you ship we would never tell a reporter and vice versa.

And that's the kind of comfort ability we want to be able to bring to our guests because we feel like that's when you get the real of stories. So I know that wasn't really the question, and the question was that we talked about champ and chips, but I kind of just took you on the process of you know, we understand that was the first chapter of our life and now we're looking forward to moving forward in new businesses and new spaces. We have new deals coming to

us every day, man. So we've definitely been blessed to be able to play basketball for a living, which is crazy, make good money, and now being this media space and be able to talk ship half fun and make good money as well. Man. I'm happy for you guys, of course, but I'm proud because you know, for your retiring is scary. It just is just something you've done since you were five years old and been serious about it. If you

played an NBA uh, for ten fifteen years. You've been serious about this from before you even thought you were being serious about it. So I'm just proud that you guys are showing these younger guys that, hey, you know, do right, try to do right, get out, and they're

still earning potential for you after you're done. Matt Barnes and Stephen Jackson both played fourteen seasons in the NBA on eight and nine teams were effectively you don't last that long on that many teams unless you have skill, passion, and undeniable leadership traits. Stephen won his NBA championship in two thousand three with the San Antonio Spurs, while Matt won his title in with the Golden State Warriors. Both were key cogs in the rotation. This dynamic duo captain

that we believe Golden State Warriors. In the O six O seven season, in true underdog fashion, that team became the third eight seed to beat a one seed in a seven game series. Watching them then and hearing them now, you knew that they were destined to lead on and off the court. Matt, your your career fascinating me because you played everywhere but every fucking team you were on, you started on, you wouldn't need to be in the league for a second, and all of a sudden they

had start. You go to someplace and and you're a starter. At what point in your NBA career did you feel like you had some minted your place in the league? UM, I would probably say, I mean the journey, you know, being drafted, cut, going to the d League for a year, then being played for the Clippers. I came into the Clippers situation body my way for ten days and making that and I think where I made a mistake, although it wasn't a mistake at the time because I was

so young, was you know, being from Sacramento. That's back in the early two thousands when ce Webb and Bibbie. At first it was Jason Williams. They had those really good Sacramento teams. So I'm going to school a U c. L A, like the only one on campus, like all the Lakers, my favorite team. I'm rooting for Webb and the Kings, you know what I mean. So at that time, I'm working out with him every summer, hanging out with

them and being mentored by him. So instead of resigning a two year deal, after my first year with the Clippers, I jumped to Sacramento. Come just like Ship, this is a good team, my hometown. This team had a chance to win a championship. I'm gonna go here. And then you know, Web gets traded to Philly, and so begins kind of my marathon where I don't play for two years there and then finally get a chance in Golden States.

So I think I kind of got my foot in the door in Golden State, but the evil Golden State, my dumbass turned down to after Nellie gave me an opportunity. I turned down a three year, twelve million dollar offered because I came off the playoffs where I'm hearing Kenny and Charles, this guy is gonna get you know, twenty to thirty million, and I'm hearing all these numbers from these experts. I'm like, shot, I'm about to get paid.

What So when that ego, that's that ego talking to you know, especially because you know, bouncing around and not even really sure if I'm gonna be playing, then you hear twenty thirty million dollars on me, Ship, and then Golden State offered me twelve I'm like, nah, So I took a one year deal with Golden State for four million, which piste off Nellie. Then the next year my mom dies and then Nellie stops working with me, So the

journey began. You know. So I kind of felt like I got myself in the door in two thousand and seven, but it was still a few years of one year auditions after that until I really got my first multi year deal with a little bit of money to it. What about you, Jack, I think for me, um, it was when I got to San Antonio and I was able to start on the championship team. Uh, coming under san Antonio. I had made the rookie team in New Jersey the year before, but coming back after the rookie game,

I was leading our rookies and scoring. Byron Scott just stopped playing, me stopped starting, So I didn't play the rest of the years. So my confidence was down. But during that season, I remember I wanted to when we played San Antonio in Jersey, Mike Brown snuck over there when I was in my street clubs because Byron went playing, was like keep you head, we come and get you. And you know, I heard that before, but I didn't know how serious it was uh that summer. Uh, they

brought me the summer League. I ended up playing, uh get signing with San Antonio. First year I was on the ange list, but the second year I played, and I played like seventeen games off the bench. We were in Seattle and uh getting rid of to play Seattle and Tim Duncan, I mean, Pop calls my room telling me to come upstairs. That's that principal office call. I'm like, oh, they're gonna cut me somebody from I'm gonna get cut

over it. So when I get up there, it's Tim Duncan is sitting in the room and Pop is like, you avage an eighteen you're having in fifteen sixty and something like that. Off the bench. We're gonna start you. And that was my moment that I knew, Okay, I'm here to stay now. Tim Duncan, David Robinson, Gregg Popovich, this legacy. I'm a part of this legacy. I have a chance to win a championship and I'm a starter. H O G. That's exactly when I knew I was here to stay, and my life change ever since I

started on that championship team with the Spurs. Isn't that amazing. Though. I have a couple of moments like that in my career where I look back and and this person or that person who I really respected, and I'm glad you said that because you had gone and done your thing in Jersey. You're playing for Byron right, Byron Scott at the time. But when you went I was skeptical when you went to the Spurs because that's Pop and Pop

has a certain way. But when you showed that you could do that and you could play how Pop wanted you to treat the game, integrity, character, knowing time and score all that stuff. Once I saw you could do that, I knew you were on your way. I mean, you were gonna be undenied. With Rex. It was tough, though. It was tough because you know, you know, you know, I mean where I come from. He was like, I make woman's think he'll pull me out the game. And at times I didn't know how to have other that.

But I had Steve Kerr, I had Steve Smith, I had Kevin Willis, I had I had those guys that had my back. Then when I come out the game blowing up, if I hadn't had those vetchrooms, I wouldn't have made it, and I'd be the first to say it, because they had experience. They taught me how to be a man. They taught me how to be a professional, and I needed that at the time, and that's the

only reason I made it in sand Sex. I think that's one thing, not to cut you off, that is missing from today's game because the game is so young. You know, you look at last year where Steph Curry is the oldest player on the Warriors and he's only thirty two. You know, when you came in the game, when Jack and I came in the game, and Jack gave you a perfect example. You need those veterans, even

if they're not getting consistent minutes. Even if they're not this they served their purpose and you know, possibly save Jack's career. I know I've had vets in my ear like I just mentioned see Web earlier that kind of talked me off the the edge of times. And I think that's what the game is missing, because you know, now the game, the kids are making more money than

ever and they have no real guidance. They're not listening to know when that's off the court because they don't know what the fuss is like on the court, So you need those vets in the locker room that can get through to some of these younger players and help them in this trans asition, Like you know, you're going from a boy to a man in a man's game on and off the court, in life, with money and with the game. So I really think, you know, the

game is missing that veteran leadership. You know, I don't want to say, probably Udonis Haslem and if he retires this year, you know, he's kind of like the last real O g U in the game now because now the game is so young, and I really feel like you're missing that veteran leadership, even if it doesn't always show up on the court with their production, it definitely shows up in the locker room and helping these young

players in this tough league. You know, it makes me feel good to hear you say that, you know, see Webb talking you down, because I remember the See Webb. He was a rookie, he was my little guy, and who I talk to see Webb down. You know for years, this first couple of years he in Juwan straight out of you know, Michigan. So I get that for both of you, which teammate or coach. Did you learn the most uh from as you transition from a young player? Uh?

In this season, VET for me the player that meant that most mean with Steffon mar Be my first year, I remember I've never been out of Texas and I've never been on the East Coast like that, and I showed up with you know, in Texas we wear a lot of heavy starts in our clothes, um, and we can take our jeans off and then stand up by themselves. Right. So I got off the plane with my starts down gees and everybody looking at me like I'm I got just got off for UFO and everybody just laughing at me,

pointing at me. As soon as I got that, step was like, uh, we can. I ain't even let them do this to you. So look it's not It's not too many rookies can say this. Man. Steph took me shopping spunk by fifteen thousand, gave me a range Rover, then later on gave me an escalade, and his family just took me in as family, and I learned how to be a professional. And just think I come into the league, you make the All Star Game, you lead our rookies and scoring. Then you just don't play the

rest of the second half of season. That's devastating to a kid who worked his way to get up there. So I was crushed. I was crushed, But having him having my back, having Kenyan Martin, there's a rookie bo us. Being from Texas, I think Steph really guided me and shelter me and didn't let the organization treat me like rap. But coach wise, I would have to say nobody believed to me more than don Nelson. Don Nelson allowed me

to be a captain on the team. Don Nelson gave me the best compliment that any coach could ever give me. That acts don Nelson, what is he like about Stephen Jackson and how would he want his team to be? He said, if I could have a team full of Stephen Jackson's I'll be fine. He's one of the winners coaches ever. So for him to give me that compliment, for him to allow me to be a captain after everything I've been through in my career and believe in me, uh,

don Nelson is my guy for sure. Um, I would say, see Webb, you know I briefly mentioned him earlier but he was someone even in the summertime when I was in college, I you know, come back and pick up with him. He to invite me to his house, just kind of big brother and me. Uh fast forward to us playing together. He gets traded to Philly. I'm gonna throw in and you know this is you know, he felt like his window with shut and they threw him

to Philly to die. So you know, we really and we discussed this, uh you know, when we had him on the podcast. We really leaned on each other during that time. I'm young, I'm twenty three, you know, looking up to Webb and seeing how he moves not only on the court off the court with business and and keeping your mind right and keeping the media out of

your business and and doing all kinds of things. So he really kind of taught me how to be not only uh you know, think as a basketball player and overcome ship, but really kind of taught me how to move off the court as well. How you're supposed to carry yourself, you know, watch the potholes to avoid you know, get have some business, Ackerman, and understand that this is

a marathon, this is a journey. And uh, you know, similar to Jack where I'm you know, I'm I played with the Clippers, I play with Sacramento, I go to Philly and don't play at all. You know. So this is with obviously Ai, a young andre Iguadala, a young Kyle Korver rookie, and Lou Williams young Sam Dalla Bear. So I'm just like, damn, I should definitely somehow be in here getting some rotation minutes. But you know, mo

Chiese just wasn't working with me. So you know, it was really tough for me to just kind of keep my head there mentally. Um so much to the pact that I started working out for football because again I was, you know, a football player, and my agents like, hey, you know, there's a handful of NFL teams that if you feel you're ready to step the basketball, that are

waiting to give you an NFL trial. So web was so was just like, you know, kind of supportive, but at the same time, like, man, you know, you got what it takes to play in this league. You know, just stick with it, keep working and you're gonna get your shot. And when you get your shot, be ready. Um So where was my o g Vett? I owe a lot to him, you know, my big brother. And then again same same thing as jack Um, the coach that really gave me my first chance and really believed

in me. Although I played with the Clippers, I played with Sacramento, you know, coming two years out of Philly there with the phone wasn't ringing. I'm sitting up in Sacramento, like, Dan, what's my next move? I get a call from Baron Davis. You know, yea, we gotta pick up game in the Bay. So that's only about an hour and a half drive out, hopping my car, go down there and play, play really well, not knowing the whole time. Don Nelson is watching. So he comes down after and puts his r A, son,

you know, where are you going? You look really good today. What are you doing? I'm just like ship coach. I don't know, you know, I don't really know what I'm doing. I don't have no teams right now. And he's like, you know, we got sixteen guarantees and we're inviting three guys to camp, but you could be our twentieth guy.

And he's like, I can't promise you nothing, but if you go out there and play like you play today, I promise I'll give you a chance, and I'm like, shit, Okay, the coaches says, give me a chance, that's all I need. So I end up playing my way through the three guys. They invited two of the guys on contracts they cut and ended up playing so well that they felt like they can trade Dune, leaving Troy Murphy. And that's how

we ended up getting Jack to Golden State. Jack and Al came to Golden State because of the way I was playing, they felt like, okay, we need to add more. Um, let's go get these guys and we can. You know, even though we gave these young guys and Murphy and then me some money, Matt's playing well enough and playing their positions where we can go out and get something else. And that's when we went and traded for Jack. So

Nelly was definitely my guy. But then again, like I said, I pissed him off from not taking that three year deal. So the next year he kind of sucked me. So he was my best and then kind of my worst, you know, all with the all with all within a two year span. He said, you were ungrateful something for real. Now. He then he told me, here you want to take this money. One day he told me, he pulled, he

pulled me to the side. He's like, he told me, and I'm telling you, so, I lost my mom at the beginning of this next season, so I didn't sign a contract. I signed a I think a one year, four and a half million dollar contract, so I'm going through it. I lose my mom at the end of November. You know, the season starts, remember one, and then no,

remember my mom died. So I'm already fucked up. So once it kind of start feeling a little bit better mid January and the January early February, motherfucker Delli pulls me outside after practice like you know something. He's like, I'm glad you didn't sign that long term deal. And I'm like, damn, what's this. He's like, cause your time here is up. I'm like, damn, what the funk? What the fund is going on? And the motherfucker's stepped to his word. Bro, I didn't play the rest of the

rest of the season. So again he was the one that gave me a chance. And then he also snatched that motherfucker from me too. Are y'all cool? Now? Yeah? I mean I have it's the business. And like I said, Rex, at the time, I'm thinking, like, yo, why is he tripping on me? But then I'm also thinking now that I'm older and think back like this man gave me a real opportunity to play in this league and then offered me my first real money and I said no

to it. So he's probably thinking, like jack just said, the audacity This motherfucker right here. You know what I means. So it's water of the bridge. You know. Like I said, I always be uh have love for Nellie. But like I said, it didn't really end the way I wanted it too. But you know, to this day, we're still cool. Ripping the reins back, got block white park up, little foul any blocker from the hard Shopsy Poker your first sun again on the middle blocks very hot as his parts.

O Stea. Jackson just Lawn's top second topical of the game and he's gone eight seconds to play Barns down the lane. Check it by the hands, black parks. Don't like that? How far I send you to the locker room looking for the whole Security is back there, all right, Well, guys, I'm gonna change gears for a second. On charges. You know, we focused on the best times, obviously, but while also reflecting on the most you know, rough patches that made us who we are today. You've both had your share

of run ins with the law. Uh. You both were at at times in trouble with and while in the NBA, and in a lot of ways, you've been known for being tough guys who aren't afraid to get after it. Do you agree with that perception? You know, Stevie, let's start with you. Yeah, I just didn't like the gangster title they tried to put on me. I've never been a gangster. I've been I'm always been a man, and I've always been somebody who had my brother's back and

and not worry about the consequences. And that's just been me. That's how I grew up. My older brother was killed when probably four minutes away from me, and that was it was nothing I can do about it, So that hunted me in my whole life, and I always voused to be my brother's keeper. I do anything for my brother. So, um, the gangster title was never me. I've done some gangster ship in my life. Let's keep it real, you know

what I mean. I'm naming name another NBA player that has been in the shootut while he was in the NBA. But I'm not that person now. You know, um, everything I've been through as far as basketball court, what people don't understand, Rex, I've never been in a fight in the NBA game with the NBA player in my whole career. You know. The only the only instead of has when they threw a beer on my teammate. And yeah, they were supposed to get their ads will because they shouldn't

be throwing stuff on players. So and I don't regret hitting that fan at all. I regret losing three million dollars behind it, But if that happened today, they wouldn't have took out money and we wouldn't have got suspended with all the stuff that's going on today. But I didn't mind it because I played the game with that passion. I played the game, uh like I was willing to die to get a win. And that's why I had

a good career. You know, I knew I wasn't as talented some guys, but I knew that I cared more I knew I was. I was willing to put more on the line to win the game for them. And that's just the attitude I had and people respected that all around the league. And that's basically it. Man. Like I said, we all make mistakes, even with being on probation and violent and probation, having to do seven days in jail I was in the NBA. That always a learning lesson for me. Look at me now, I don't smoke,

I don't drink. I'm a Muslim now, like all those things made me be perfected me to be the man I am today. And I don't regret any of it. Man, I embraced my journey. I embraced who everything I've been through, and uh, it wasn't a mistake. It was meant for me to go through those things to be able to grow. As long as you're evolving, who cares with you? What about you? Man? Um? You know, I kind of say

a reputation is earned, whether good or bad. And I think to make the league, there's some ship I just had to do. You know. It was they're gonna be near you, and whether that meant basketball, fighting hard foul, I was trying to eat, you know what I mean.

So I think my reputation early on preceding me because I was someone who wasn't afraid to get physical, you know, kind of at the end of where physicality was really allowed the early two thousand, there wasn't you know, it was kind of starting to transition more until you can't touch no one to do nothing, you know. So I was kind of an old school and I would just say I was a football player playing basketball, you know

what I mean, And similar to Jack. You know, obviously there's people more skill, but I felt like no one had more heart to be and I was gonna do

whatever it took to beyond that court. And as you mentioned earlier, you know, rex bouncing around on different teams, and no matter what team I went to, even on the Warrior team, the championship Warrior team I played on, I'm either starting or the sixth man or seventh man, the absolute worst, but I'm at least playing eight teen to twenty five minutes at my lowest point, you know.

So my whole thing was a grind in the marathon, and I think, you know, in my later years, I kind of was able to kind of shed the perception of me only because of social media, you know, because the the NBA needed bad guys, just like they needed good guys. I kind of felt like, you know, I was kind of had the bad guy narrative and then rest in peace to our brother Cobe and that in two thousand and ten when I ball faked up, that

was kind of like, Okay, you're the bad guy. We're you're the person we're gonna boo whenever Arena, how dare you funk with Kobe? This is? And that. So at times it would hurt me because I would be getting all this hateful messages and all this kind of ship and I'm like, damn, I'm not a bad guy. But then at the same time, I kind of flipped the switch, like all right, well fuck it. You want me to be the bad guy, I'm gonna be a bad motherfucker this.

So I'm gonna be this break guy exactly. I embracing it. And it allowed me to play fourteen years in this game, you know, fifteen years overall. But you know, if you want me to be this person to fit this narrative and and it allows me to make a bunch of money and play the game of my dreams, I'm gonna do that. So only through social media, I feel like myself and Jack that we're kind of able to show

the world who we really are. You get to see the other side now, and that's why we enjoy what we do so much from a podcast standpoint, because I think there is narratives that the media may paint now, but now more than ever, we can strip those and we can help other people strip those by allowing them to tell their true stories. Like when me and Jack were first coming up, there was no way we could have said what I just told you because there was not an outlet for it, and there wasn't a writer.

Unless there was a writer that really fun with you, there was gonna give you that platform or their opportunity to speak your piece. So now that we have, you know, everything we need in front of us, we'd have been able to kind of shed those stigmas. And we weren't bad people. We just played with a lot of hard and we're gonna do whatever it took to help our

team win. You know, I played every game like it was my last, because you know, for my first five or six years, I was on one year deal, so every game was not only had an audition for my team, but it was an audition for the rest of the league and like I said, it was either going to be me or you, and it wasn't gonna be you. So that's kind of the way I looked at it and got a reputation from it. But again, people who take the time to get to know me and funk

with me, you know, they do just that. But if you don't take the time and you just want to throw insults or negative things my way, it doesn't really matter to me because you didn't take the time to get to know me in the first place. I'm really am I'm so happy for you guys, and you guys put this stuff into great perspective. I had on Bonds E Wells, you know a couple of weeks ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I played against Bonds I think for one year.

But I just wish back and because they called them dudes, the jail blazers guys, they called him to jail blazers, they called him thugs, they called him to jail blazers, and they didn't have anything but a weed charge if that, I just wish that at the time Bondsi and Rashid could have had a podcast because the whole narrative would have changed style Balasty Blaws what a test and this has potentially serious and they don't kept the tree Stephen Jackson.

She wallis trying to be peaspacerbout Jackson, Yellow Jackson stupids challenge and Derek callby some of you should just get Jackson out of him through this post or Testice in the stands. Well, this is awkward. Fans are getta get though Stephen Jackson's and the fans, Yes, she Wallace going into the stacks security, trying to send out the story fans and going Steve, let's focus on you for just a second, being involved in that malice of the Palace,

whatever the hell they call that. I spoke with Ron we Meta about it on our second episode. What do you remember about that night and the aftermath for you? Well, going into that game, I knew that was my first year. I just got traded there, you know what I mean, I just sign my big contract. But I knew it was a robbery between the Pistons and the Pacers. I knew I was going into a war zone. Um, but I knew we was a whole different team. I knew what I brought to that team something that they had

missed and um, coming to that we knew that. You know, we were one of the best teams in the league. I think we were like fourteen and five at the time and something that we had a good record, and this was the game to let the NBA know all around the world that this is our year to win the championship. Jermaine was an All Star, Run was Defensive Player of the Year. Run was just dominating on both

ends of the ball. And I knew I had to come in and be a smaller r on our test but not as good and uh just been able to shoot threes better. And I came in and played my role. And at the end of that game, we were up fifteen points forty five seconds left, and um, my whole attitude was, Okay, we made our point, let's get up out of here. Um. It was some issues from the previous Eastern Conference finals, like I said, I wasn't there and that I didn't know about I didn't know it

was beef intention. You know, still to the point where guys want to still make hard files. Really, when the game was over, somebody put a battery in and runs back to get a file from last year, to get his file. He's like, you can get your file now wrong, we don't win the game. And when I heard that, I was at the free throw line. So when I heard that, I instantly guarded Being running down court. I said, no, wrong,

go get somebody else. I got Being just so he wouldn't file him, so we can get up out of there and go home and you know, be the best team in the league at the time. Well, as I'm guarden Ben the clock you know how to do Rex and Matt when when the game is over, when you go out with somebody, you don't want the clock to run out. You ain't gonna follow him. So I'm toking garden Bend and I'm just letting him walk to the back skill rect. Just let him walk to the basket,

so the clock and run out. Ron comps from out of nowhere and files being. Now, this one thing I knew before I even played with the Pacers. I knew what Ben who Ben was. Ben wasn't no punk. He was strong. He was a big old country boy that you don't want to mess with. I knew that off the rip. So when they when he filed him, the first thing I did I was like, oh man, here we go. And we didn't. Eventually get in the middle of it until we've seen them back farthing up apart

where they couldn't just go to blows. See if you look at the tape, we stood there for a minute to see if there was gonna lock up first, because you know, Ben got the right to get this get back and Ron wasn't gonna run. That's one thing about us, you know what I'm saying. Back Then the five eventually happened and guy's lock up. We're gonna let him go ahead and get it in right quick, but we're gonna break it up where they didn't lock up, so we jumped into it and tried to break it up. Rip

Hamilton is my Class ninety six brother. We've been tight. Uh Rashid is my brother. I looked up to Derek Coleman. But in that moment, if you see, if the tension was so high, we all was getting into it. We all are gonna push him back and forth. And after things calmed down, you know, even with going in the stands, when the punchet started being throwing in the stands, Rashid

came up there and got meat. He came up there to make sure I was straight to get me out the stands because it was too much going on and it just went bad fast. Man. But I think if I can't wait till we all can sit down together because everybody has respect for each other and it was just the tension from basketball and guys want to be great. The love is still there. I just hate it happened that way for the world to see, because, like you said, we went to jail, we lost money, We got some run.

Run Run missed out on the championship. That was our championship year. They suspended him the whole season Rex because somebody threw a bear at him. And and in today's society, you throw a bar on somebody, that's the sault. That's the sault. So I hate Run missed out on the championship. And the biggest thing that I took away from us, we messed up Reggie Miller's last year. That was his year to win the championship. That was Reggie's last year, and Reggie felt like he was confident in us to

get us that championship. But that one moment ruined our whole year. Damn, damn. You know, there's something going on with fans in the arena's lately, you know, fans spits on Trey Young at Madison Square Garden at which, by the way, I'm in the stands right then and there. If I see it, I mean, that's not even a debate. If I saw somebody, come on, come on, that's not even the Yeah, somebody spits on him. Someone then throws a water bottle at Kyrie. Uh, it's starting to get

out of hand. Did we learn from the malice at the Palace at all? I mean, how do you think about the relationship between the fans and the players in the arena right now? Well, we didn't learn from that because they only punished us. Yeah, you know what I mean. We were screwting Eizes on TV. We was talked about on TV. We was Searan being arrested on TV and taking the jail on TV. Not the fan we were, And that's all the NBA cared about. They didn't care

about us. They cared about their business and that said a lot at the time. The NBA has to do something about these fans because Mike Tyson said it best. And it's just like on social media people. Social media's make people too competent to say things and do things without getting punched in the mouth, and that's what we

have today. I completely agree, completely agree. The malice at the Palace called Steven Jackson thirty games in suspension, millions in salary and had him pleading no contest to misdemeanor assault charges stemming from the melee. Heading into the two thousand six two thousand seven season, the Indiana Pacers were still trying to repair their image. Some two years after

the brawl in Auburn Hills. Stephen was twenty eight years old, and during a night off after training camp on Friday, October six, two thousand six, he went with his Pacers teammates to Club Rio in Indianapolis, Indiana. There occurred in altercation that altered his career and almost cost him his life. Stack tell me about the night of October two thousand six, you and some teammates out to the Strip club in Indiana.

Lad to you firing your registered gun and being hit by a car and eventually pleading guilty to a felon account of criminal recklessness. You protected Jamal Tinsley outside of the club from getting jumped. Right, were you in field for your life at that moment? Yeah? Well, one thing about it, I was actually me and all Harrison had left the club earlier and I was pulling out the

parking lot. Rex. We were in training camp, uh so me and I wasn't drinking or nothing, and now we were just going out to bond with the team because the whole team was out. Um And as we were leaving the club, I see Jamal Tenny running out the club and I see three guys following him. Well, by that time, you know, I wasn't the type of guy with it. Ain't me, I might as well going and keep going. Now I saw my backed up hopped out.

Like you said, my gun was registered. As I'm going over there to help him, it's more guys coming out the club. So and I've seen a group of thirty guys in the club when I was in there, so I know it's more guys coming out, and me being in that position, I'm not gonna let guys run behind me. Knocked me out and I'm getting stumped out in the park lot. You know, I was prepared for that, so I took my gun off and let off some shots

make sure they got away from me. Were During that time, one of the guys had got in the car and I had already had this idea that he was gonna try to kill me. Um he z rolled in on me and as I was running to my car, rex he dashed out the parking spot and then we end up parking lot about forty five miles power in the old school car. So he was coming so fast where I couldn't get out of the way. But the fact that I was sober, the fact that I was thinking, I was in my right mind. I just turned sideways

where he couldn't take my legs. Because if I stood there he would have took my legs, I'd probably been dead or paralyzed for the rest of my life. So I jumped with the car. I jumped a little bit when my back hit the windshield and then flipped me up in the air while I ended up hitting the ground from the momentum of the car and ended up knocking all my teeth out. While I had to have

plastic surgery with no anesthesia for two hours. It was cutting skin off my lips, digging debris out of my lips, all my teeth was going the most pain I ever been through in my life. I still my adrenaline made me stand right up. The car had to do you turn to get out of the parking lot. I take my gun out and unload on him. As soon as I realized my cliff is empty, I pass out and

I wake up in the police car. And the only reason I woke up, and I remember being a police car because they had Marquis Days and cups as well at the time. And I'm sitting there. He markets just think I'm dying because he see my mouth is shattering and ripped open and I'm unconscious, so I'm just bleeding. So he's kicking the door. My my teeth. My boy died in here, Come get him out of here. He think I'm in the car died, and I come out. I wake up, and I'm trying to figure out what's

going on. And I was just out of him man, and I didn't know what was going on. But I don't regret that either, because I was having my teammate. Yeah yeah, my lip stills scarred up from that day. But I'm alive, and I think the only reason guard protecting me because I wasn't out there wreck just waving a gun on some gangster ship like I wasn't a gangster. I was protecting my teammate. I had a gun license,

and I did what I had to do. And if I was in a situation today when somebody trying to jump on Matt and I had to use my gun again, I'll do it again. Your teeth look good, though they do. Look at him. Look, yes they do, because I had I had a gap at the time. But Rex, I mean mean, like I said, all that, what he just said, obviously it's crazy, but that's kind of what led him to us. You know, Indiana feels like, okay, well ship, Okay, this motherfucker's crazy, so we need this. So that's how

the world works. He ends up getting traded that season the Golden State, and that's how, you know, our relationship becomes what it is, and we make a historic run that same season, and it kind of been kind of shedding the stigma since then. But that's when I spoke earlier. I think, you know, incidents like the malice and incidents

like that, the politics of the game. It's kind of what kept Jack from acquiring accolades that he definitely deserved, whether it be All Stars or First Team All Defense or this kind of ship. Because of the trouble he got off off the court and It wasn't him on no bully waving a gun half fun ship. It was always in defense of his brother. So that's why you know, I love this guy and respect him and will do anything for him. Beautiful me. I spoke with former NBA

player Stephen Jackson today. He called George Floyd his twin brother. The two spend a lot of time here in Houston, and Jackson told me he is now making it his life's mission to get justice for his twin. Do you think as athletes, but also as black men, you have the responsibility to use your platform to talk about the problems in society that I haven't been getting enough attention decade after decade. Or is it a choice that every person should make for themselves. Yeah, I think it's mandatory

because and it's not just as a black man. I think it's mandatory for us, but it's mandatory for everybody that wants equality. Thank you. You know, if you can look at somebody from every race like I can and tell him I love him and mean, it's just like I can tell you I love you, Rexon, You know I mean, and I know it's reciprocated from you. You know, then that's how the world supposed to me. That's the answer to getting the quality, that's the answer to stop

all this racism. Doing your part. Everybody has a part to play, not just because you're an athlete, not just because you have a voice, but everybody has a part to play and getting this thing right and getting rid of the people who hate, getting rid of racism and stuff like that. But but we have a voice, We have a voice. I didn't ask to be the face of the biggest civil right movement. I lost the twin, I lost a close friend. It was real pain that put me in that position. I didn't ask to be

in that position. But at the same time, I inherited being the voice for other people who don't have a voice. When I went down there, it was a woman named Miss del Say Cherrell. Her son had been put in the sale for eight hours and had a pre existing condition. They left me in at a die and she had been screaming for help, but nobody heard her until the day we went down there and had that press conference with my brother. So I inherited being other people's voice.

But we all have a voice to play. And if you're not out here helping people and trying to help somebody benefit or pick somebody up, then what are you doing? I think really it's to each his own. But we feel it a responsibility for us because we have been through so much ship and we had lost friends and family members and could have took a turn right or left that could have made us a statistic on the

wrong side of defence, you know. So that we've been able to make it through, although different journeys for Jack and I but similar at the same time, we've been able to make it through and again second round picks who got cut and had to grind, uh, you know,

both able to win championships. But then you know our second act, you know, we're seeing deals and getting situations like we were stars in the league, and like I said, we we knew we were role players, important role players, but we were never like superstars are all stars, although Jack should have probably been an All star, but he got in that fight and politics came into it. But

funck that. But again, I think that because the way we move and how real we are, we've been getting these doors opened that normally don't happen to guys that kind of had our journey or our type of careers. You know, so we do feel it's important to not only speak on sports, but speak on social issues that may not get attention. And now more than ever, it's not so much about shut up and dribble. They try

to pull that ship. It didn't work because we are, as Jack is, you know, lad, the biggest marks our history has ever seen. We are advocates not only for social justice, for social equity. We we know, we're big proponents in the cannabis space, where we preach for people and in help people get funding in the cannabis space, where in the social justice space, where fathers, where business owners, Uh, we do philanthropy. Maybe there's so many facets to us

that you know, we feel like that. Obviously getting in this space, we were gonna have to talk about sports, but we really do want to talk about life because we're all affected by life. And uh, I think we've done a good job of doing that. I'm with you. Goodness said it better last year or two, last four or five been really tough. You know, I say it all the time. You know, I'm fortunate that I just get to learn about racism. You guys wake up black every day, I wake up white every day, and it's

on all of us. If you've got a platform and you're not trying to use it to help advance the agenda, then you're doing it wrong. That's my opinion. I love you guys for doing what you're doing for reals. Uh. Jack, you've been known to talk about your relationship with gangs, and based on where you're from and and the world you knew. Uh, you're somebody that young men around the world look up to with your candor and your connection with a higher power. Uh. What is that change in

your life like for you and the world around you? Well, I'm a real one, um. I didn't expect to wake up one morning and see some the only person on earth that look exactly like me getting murdered for the world to see. My life changed that day. One thing people don't know was that incident didn't cataput me into giving back. I had been giving back to twenty sixteen Rashid, going to going to plan and giving water back. So

I had already started that. But being that my brother was murdered and there was so many other murders by police that has been looked over and been swept under the rug, and the first thing they tried to do. It's belittle the character of the person who's been murdered to make so they can validate what they did to him. And I wasn't gonna let that happen to my twin. I was so hurt that I didn't know what to do. Rex.

I just lad with my heart. Something told me to go down there and stand for him, because one thing I did know the all the people that had been murdered by police, none of them had one of the biggest podcasts in the world, none of them had an NBA champion as a twin, and none of them at a voice like I had. So it was mandatory that I stand up for him. And it cataported like I didn't ask to be the face of the biggest civil

rights moves ever. People. I was put in that position by losing a friend, and to be honest, rest I have to say this, it's a lot of activists that hate that I'm in the face of that because this is what they do, you know what I mean. And so I'm getting death best from people that don't want equality, I'm getting hate from my own kind because if they wish it was them, you know, it was so much going on, like I was calling Matt like it was

times when I was frustrating. The first two weeks have been in Minnesota, Rex, I didn't eat because I was up all day marching, speaking, doing interviews, just trying to bring attention to this because I knew my brother had a past like we all do, and I knew they was gonna try to bring that up to try to demean his character. So I knew he had a daughter, and I was friends with his daughter's mother, and I knew that I had to get down there and speak for them and be there for them. And I'm just

happy that we were able to get justice. I'm happy that his death wasn't in vaining my work then going vain. But I had to grow as a person because I don't want to be a hypocrite, Rex. I wanted to lead by example, you know, And that's why I had to make these changes in my life, you know, for me to grow. Like Matt said earlier, we're getting deals and we get stuff. We got stuff going on that only star players in the NBA get. So in order for me to show God that I appreciate and I'm

humble about everything, He's blessing us with. I got to continue to grow and be a better person. And I know that I'm not. I'm no different than nobody else. Rex, I'm no different than no other human being on this earth. But the blessings I have, I appreciate it. So the only wayson I gonna show them I'm thank was. But I can tell you and to grow, and that's what I'm doing. Yes, you are. Remember, guys, when they're attacking you,

you're winning. You're winning. When they're attacking you, You're winning. Matt, let's change gets for a second. Talk about you for a second. Math How did summer change your life and thinking about society? The NBA stepped up while in the bubble in Orlando. Would you like to see more being done by the league in society at large? I think, so, you know, this this social activism space, in justice space, I've kind of been in, but kind of been in under the radar um because to me, it wasn't about

getting recognition for what I'm doing. It was just about doing the work. You know, So I'm doing you know, I did the march for Stefan Clark, who was shot eighteen times by police, and Sacramento you know, paid for you know, me and me and DeMarcus Cousins paid for the funeral, paid for a lot of different stuff. But it was never really about being recognized. We did it because we wanted to make a difference and and we

felt obligated to help our people. So, you know, when hit, it kind of just put everything under the magnifying glass. So when Jack was out there marching every day I could see him. I'm calling him, I'm checking on him, telling him to eat, tell him to take a day off, telling them to take a deep breath, tell him to take relax. I'm proud of him. I love him. There was even points where he was pissed at me. It wouldn't respond to me because I was on him so much,

but I knew he needed to hear it. Even if he didn't respond, I knew he hear that. So when Jack is out there marching, I'm up in Sacramento at the Capitol, you know, working on policies, trying to change bills, getting bills passed, police procedure bills. UM helped get a B three ninety two, which is a police for seizure bill that UM was put into law out here in California. So I was doing kind of the behind the scenes work and realizing that everyone has a place in this game.

You know, Doc Rivers says, you know, be a star in your role, and that doesn't only mean on the court, that means in life, you know what I mean. So Jack was out there marching. I'm trying to get policies passed. I'm going to fly and meet with Joe Biden before the election talking he wants the black vote. What are you gonna do for the black vote? You know, you helped this build. It has incarcerated more black people than anyone. So I'm out here asking hard questions and doing things

because again I was trying to do my part. So yes, happy that the NBA stepped up. It did something. And this is something that Jack and I actually disagreed on and talked about because he didn't feel like the players should play and he felt like, obviously similar to Kyrie, where there's more important things to basketball, and I completely

a thousand percent agree with that. But at the same time, Rex I felt like, um, individually, we have some big voices in Lebron and Chris, and you're gonna hear those guys whether they're playing or not, but I felt like collectively for our message to really get around the world, we needed that NBA logo behind it. So I was glad that the NBA and the players chose to play.

I'm glad they took every single interview and opportunity to whether it's even just putting black lives matter on the court, people might not think that does something, but the fact that a multibillion dollar corporation, sporting corporation is doing that, it's a big deal. And the fact that the players continue to push and say people's names and get things done, understanding the power we have now. So I think that experience united us and understood that. You know, and it's

not only when I say us, it's not blacks. To me, it's us versus hate. So hate comes in every shape, form and color. So we understand that our allies may not be the same color to us, and our family or friends may be on the opposite side because they have hated them. So to me, it's everybody versus hate. But I love the people that came together for one thing, which was love, inequality and continuing to push the message. So you know, Jack with his marching me doing what

I was doing, the NBA doing what we're doing. We're all continuing to push this message, and I feel like for the first time, after four years of unequal footing, that they're starting to listen. So, now, what what is our strategy moving forward? You know, we understand that the power in our numbers. They call us minorities, and when I say minorities is everybody pretty much but white people. The only reason why they cast minorities is to keep

us in our place. If we come together, were actually the majority, where actually there's more of us than there is of them, and I kind of think that's what they fear. So I think we we learned that when we come together, we can flip states, We can do things that we never thought was possible. We have people thinking that the election was rigged because so many people the color of us came out and actually voted for

the first time. So there's power in numbers. I hope we continue to grow off that and learn from it. And again, it's not white versus black, black versus Asian white verse. It's not it's love versus hate, because again, hate comes in all shapes, forms and colors, and we have to eradicate that we have to continue to call people on their bullshit. Some people may need to be slapped, you know. I mean, some people feel comfortable saying crazy stuff in your face. And it's not the days where

we just have to take anymore. So I'm not obviously condoning us, but sometimes violence it happens in the process. But again, the world is listening, and what is gonna be our message moving forward? What is going to be our strategy moving forward? Because we fought, we've rioted, we've burned things down, and that's got a little bit of attention. But now that they're actually listening, what are we gonna do with our minds to help better not only us,

but better our kids futures. Stevie, I'm I got a feeling. I know what the tears are about, but what are they about? Yeah, it just you know, hearing Matt talk, it just took me back to that place, man, Like it was so many people Rex that was on my phone calling, you know, when the cameras was around, when the story was hot, you know what I mean. But that's why I say, on my brother's keeping, that's why I love Matth so much, because those people nowhere around now,

I'm still doing the work. My tears are still here and uh and uh to know how he was there, for me to know where I was going through at that moment um, for everybody that was around with the hammers and and and and for him to still be here on my side, like I appreciate that. It just took me back to that spot, man. Um just thinking about you know, everything I was going through at that moment. Man. But I just appreciate my brother so much. Man, And like the tears will never go away because I really

lost the friend. My mama tell you you know what I'm saying, if she even thought that was a Sunday times when she saw him, that's how much we're looking like And uh, it just took me back to that place for us. Second, man, well, you know these tears are not fake, they really so when they when I feel it, they come out good. Good let him out.

The horrifying murder of George Floyd happened and was broadcast on MA in Minneapolis, Minnesota, after then police officer Derek S. Chauvin handcuffed put face down in the street, and put his knee on the neck of George Floyd for nine minutes and twenty nine seconds, killing him while onlookers filmed, but we're not allowed to intervene. This all occurred because George Floyd was suspected by a grocery store employee of

using a counterfeit twenty dollar bill. On June, Derek Chauvin was sentenced to twenty two years and six months after being convicted by a jury in April. May George Floyd rest in peace. Maybe we all use our voices for justice and equality for all. I want to thank you for listening to part one of our part two series with Matt Barnes and Stephen Jackson. Part two will air next Tuesday at nine am six am Pacific. For those who are subscribed on your favorite podcast platform. This is Charges.

Charges is created by Portlay and Control Media. It's produced by DV Podcasts in association with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.