Vol. 17: John Amaechi

most parts of the country. You know, in Utah, people knew I was gay in the organization and they did not like it at all from the daftings. But basketball six years later, I was in the league. Some of the sports and the sports league don't deserve a love. Sports over promises and underdelivers. Welcome to Charges. I'm your host, Rex Chapman. Today on the show we have John Amici. Some of you guys are going to have to dig deep in your mind for why that name rings a bell.

Maybe it's because John was the first person from England or the United Kingdom to make it to the NBA. Or maybe you're a fan of Penn State, where John was at two time academic All American, or maybe it's because after his professional career ended, John told the world his truth. He's gay, and he played basketball at the highest level as a gay man in the mid nineties in early two thousands. And then John did what so many athletes struggled to do. Hell, what I've struggled to do.

He retired, he moved on, he got involved with another passion, and here he is now a decorated psychologist and one of the smartest, most considerate people I've come across. Let alone to lace up some sneakers or trainers as they're called in England and be a part of the NBA brotherhood. This his charges. John. It's an honor to have you on the show today. Thank you for being here. It's an absolute pleasure. Um. I'm sure that I'm not the first to say this, but sometimes you post the usual

Dawa stuff that we all need to see. But sometimes you post these timeline cleanses that are like, this is saving me right now, this is saving me. So thank you. Yeah, that's amazing, John. Normally on this show, UH, athletes have face charges either from the law or court of public opinion. What are the charges you've faced from the court of public opinion? Well, everything from being just intrinsically sinful, uh, full of myself, uh, pseudo intellectual um uppity. Okay, this

is this is just my small list of this. Yeah, I get it. I get it. You've I don't know if I want to sit down with you in therapy, Uh where you're diagnosing me? My goodness, let's start here. I've seen and heard you say this in other interviews. Uh, you're not a sports fan. No, I really appreciate, so I hope people can make this distinction. I really appreciate when I see people do remarkable stuff, whether it's Simone Biles and you watch her spinning mid air and land.

You know. I don't know about you, but I went nowadays walking downstairs. There's a bit of a challenge for me, so I went when I see that, but I recognize intrinsically something amazing. I've been a part of something called the Activity Alliance in the UK, which is a charity that works with people with disabilities who participate in sports

or physical activity. And I remember this has got to be nearly twenty years ago, when I uh was still in the league, and I was I I think so anyway, and I watched a young man, severely disabled young man in an electric wheelchair with a bean bag, and they have a bean bag throw is part of the competition. And I remember watching and I was still at a stage when I was probably stupid enough and young enough to I don't know, to not care about people who

I didn't think we're real sports people. And then suddenly I did like a double take on this this kid's face, and I realized it's the same face that you see on court. It's the same face. So I really appreciate excellence in sport. My problem is that that some of the fandom creates a real toxicity, and also some of the sports and the sports league don't deserve our love. They overpromise and underdeliver in a way that is so epic that only weight loss drugs companies are probably ahead

of them. Yeah yeah, man, tell me how a non sports fan who grows up in England becomes the first Englishman to ever play in the NBA. I was stopped on the street. And I don't think this is an uncommon thing. It's an uncommon thing in the United Kingdom to be stopped on the street to play basketball. But I was stopped on the street by a man whose name I do not know, and I don't know who

it was. And the different in that moment in my life is remarkable because if you'd have asked me if I wanted to play basketball, I would have laughed at him sweating. I was seventeen years old when this happened. I started playing basketball at seventeen and a half. You hadn't picked up a basketball until then, really, no, no, no, no no. I ate pie and read books. I ate pie and read box. That was my So he he saw your size you had gotten. How tall were you

at the time. I was probably six seventh Okay, wow, so I got big real quick, and you know, it's pretty much my I'm six nine now. Well I'm getting short of now, but I'm as tall as I was, almost as tall as I was going to be. And he he didn't ask me if I wanted to play, because I would have said no. He didn't even tell me I should play. I always hate it when people tell other people what they should do, because what they

really mean is you know what you're good for. But he said he would be great a basketball and I remember being absolutely incredulous. On the street in Manchester Market street in Manchester, just being incredulous that somebody who was a stranger had told me I could be eight. And I was like, all right then, I mean such an idiot because I ended up in a gym horrible Jim in Chorlton with the backboards posted pasted onto the wall. Something you took upon yourself to do what you heard that.

Had you played other sports? Had you played no, no, no. My living was bringing in forged notes. My mom was a doctor g P bringing in forged notes, saying John can't do pe today. That was my life. I hated it. I hated sweating physical activity. But I got in that gym and fifteen or so strangers in that gym when I walked in, ran towards me, grabbed me by the arms and we're fighting over whose team who would get me?

Even when I was I was terrible. Obviously, you know every big who walks in off the street, nobody's got that much. I shot my first shot. Somebody told me to shoot it, and I was like, what shoot it? And so is put throw that in there? So I

threw it up. I missed by about six ft and somebody, some kid on the team just just yelled out, that's his first shot and he only missed by six ft And I was like, who wouldn't want to live as I was like at the end of that session, I said, I'm never leaving this place and that's why I wanted to play basketball. And when they told me, I told him about the NBA. That day we were sat down at the end of training. They started talking about the NBA and I was like, what's that say? It's the

best league in the world. They said, well, what does it mean? And the National Basketball Association? Cool, and listen, it's in America. And I immediately thought, if I could have this good feeling around people, but do it in the sunshine, wouldn't that be great? And that's the start of my NBA journey. I want to do what this feeling but in Los Angeles, I can't even begin to express to you all how incredible John of mechs. In the history of the NBA, there's only been a little

over forty players. The odds of making it into the league for anyone, let alone someone who picked up the game at age seventeen, are right next to impossible. John's journey from a young man who didn't play sports to an adult who doesn't like sports but was a professional basketball player in the NBA fraternity is so marvelous and miraculous that it could be a movie. While some see sports as an escape, the difference with John was that for him it meant acceptance as a young six ft

eight black man amongst boys. So you just you felt accepted by a group of people for the first time. Yeah, because mostly when I when you know, when I walked down the street even now, I mean I'm fairly regularly stopped in searching in the United Kingdom. Um, but even then, when I walked down the street, the number one reaction to me was terror. Even as a geek key, you know, thick glasses wearing kid who has usually had a pie in his hand and books, people were terrified of me.

And yet in this place, you know, most of the people in my school thought I was thick. Assumed if I'm a big black kid, the only black kid in my school, I must be thick. And so you get into this new environment and everybody thinks you've got potential. It's intoxicating. You were a great student, though, right always? Or what did you put forth the effort? So I was I was very um. Let me see, my mother was very dedicated to me being a great student, and

I love to learn. But what's interesting, and nobody cares about this, this is I'm taking a nerd, right, But um, there's this weird thing where people misunderstand that being thrilled by learning is not necessarily measured in education. And so I did quite well at the O levels, which is the up to sixteen A level. I did catastrophically badly because what I'm not good at is regurgitating learned information.

What I'm great at is the integration of ideas to come up with a decent solution, or at least contributing to a decent solution. So actually, not even undergraduate, but graduate school really suited me because that's what it was, figuring things out. That's amazing. Tell me more about what you remember about your early years with your mom um. I I she was amazing. I always tell people that

my mom was better than their mom um. The best way I can describe it is that most people have had the experience of those lovely, high pressure, cool days where the sun shining and it's not so bright, so you can kind of close your eyes and look towards the sun, and it feels like your whole brain is being illuminated by the lights. That's what talking to my mother was like. Everything she talked to you, it was like your whole brain was being warmed and illuminated by

the sun, even when she was yelling at you. It gives me chills. The way you speak, the way it appears your mind works. It comes from somewhere. And you describing your mother like that, just know that there's some of that in there. Obviously obviously, Uh you said basketball gave you acceptance for being big, for being black, you know all of it. How important is that acceptance not only for you in your life, but in everyone's life.

I think where you feel at home, where you where you can find a place where you aren't spending parts of your energy to protect yourself is amazing. I know that you will understand this, perhaps from a different aspective, but we've all been in positions where we've had to hide or protect parts of our identity and it takes energy. People, and so there's only a finite amount of energy. People love this, especially in sports. We love this stupid idea

of a hundred and ten percent. It's like, no, sometimes there is just a percent of something and not more than that. And so if two percent of it is being used to kind of protect you from those people who say cruel things, and another two percents being used because the coach has the wrong style or or treat you with disrespect, and another two percent because you're worried about your family at home, and another two percent another whatever percent because you're gay and nobody knows about it,

whatever it is, you suddenly realize the end. And in most workplaces you can get by. But when you're one of the you know, supposedly top three odd people in the world, it's something you kind of need, like on a bad day, and especially as me, because let's face it, you were a player. You are a legend, and I am a former player, but not a legend, right, I'm not. This is not humble, This is just practical. Let's just be practical. And so I bring other things to the

table nowadays. And I brought other things to the table when I was there, and I had a couple of great years, but you know, not my on my best day, I still needed to bring otherwise I would get squashed. I understand that completely, and Honestly, I bounced around the league. I wasn't an all star type player every year. I understand exactly what you're talking about. And what was weird for me is you know, any secret that I had or part of my identity that I hid, you know,

over an amount of time over my life. Once I started talking and those I let out those parts, you know what, I felt uneasy, like I didn't know what to do with out the secret or I'm sure you've gone through that, right. It builds a gravity. Secrets have gravity, and when you start to let go of it, it feels like you're spiraling away from from something incredibly familiar, even if that familiar is bad. You know, one of the things that people don't realize about why change is

so hard. It's not actually about the difficulty of going from something good to something better. It doesn't. It's not even about the difficulty in going through something good to something worse. Any change from your status quo will be unwelcome, at least initially until you wrap your finder us. Yeah, yeah, brilliant Dachi take go with a skin absolutely indo. He's so big, it's so strong, and he's got such a soft shot Michigan shot sent in the first half, John A.

Mici Mrs gets the foot back. Then State with Michigan regroup, Michi strong inside or all to part room to AMGI. He had twenty six and Maji spent two years and stadium was tipped for the draft when the end wasn't picked. Then just before the started last season, he got a call from the Cleveland Cavaliers. The dream had come true. Let's talk about becoming a professional athlete for a second in the mid nineties in America. How did how did you do that? How did you end up in the league?

I wrote three thousand letters to America UM when I was seventeen from that day, that day that the man approached you and this set you on track and you had you had a focus at that point, right. Oh yeah. I want to be clear. When I left the gym after my first hour and fifteen minutes session in basketball, having missed taken and missed one shot zero percent. That sitting down in that gym with my new teammates, who I already decided with my teammates now they talked about

the NBA. It was there they said, this is the NBA, It's the best place in the world. I said, yeah, I'm going to do that. That's what I told them right there. And then what's interesting is that each of them they said, of course you are, but not like in a sake sarcasm way, in a legitimate yeah, of course you are. So that's what started me off. Then I had to find a way to get to America.

We went to a bookshop in London that had the Fulbright Commission is you might be familiar with it, used to do all kinds of exchanges and things like that. But they had this book with all the high schools in America in it. Because don't forget this is I don't know eighty something and so it wasn't in an internet or email time. And I got this book and I simply went through. I knew there were too many in that I just went through every couple of pages, stuck a pen on the page whatever the dot was

that was. So there was this place in Roanoke, Virginia that I wrote of this high school in Roano, Virginia. I wrote a letter to um Toledo, Ohio. Quite a few other places I wrote the same letter high coach. My name is John M. G. I am six ft nine, black and English and I want to play on your team, something along about sirs lines. I expected to be inundated and was not. I got three replies, UM, two of which were knows. One of them like, why would you

bother right? But two of them were knows. One of them was from a very famous high school in New Jersey, UM where they said, we're the winning this school in New Jersey. We don't need foreign talent. And then one of them was from Telit, Ohio, and they said, if you're serious, you're willing to work, we'll give you a goal. So I went to Toledo, Ohio. That, by the way, I just want to point out that blew my idea of America out of the water. Don't don't don't forget that.

I knew America from night Rider in the eight That was that was what I knew. The sun always shines, but it shines in a really reasonable way. And I got to Ohio in the middle of summer and nearly died when I off the plane. I couldn't believe how hot it was. Then people started talking to me, and I realized that Americans don't speak English speak Americans, like,

what do you what do you think? So I spent my first three weeks just nodding and smiling at people, trying to figure out what the hell is going on around But such a generous group of people. Were you? Were you any good at this point? No? I mean, I mean, I mean I thought I was a two god X. I thought I was a two god. I didn't like contact and I like to shoot threes. But John, at within a year or two, you're able to compete on the college level and not just compete, stand out.

That's where I started watching you. I actually you know, I'm an SEC guy Kentucky all that. I remembered you at Vandy and then did you you sat out a year? Yes, because you showed back up at Penn State and we're killing it. And so I don't understand. You know, it's like a guy going from hitting fourteen home runs one season to hitting seventy eight the next year. I just don't understand how you were able to progress. Was it?

I'm sure your brain helped obviously, but you had to fall in love somewhat with getting in shape and staying in shaping you. No, I I lament most mornings. I miss being in shape. You know, you look pretty in shape right now, but I am not. And I lament those days when you could just be on a you know, when you be on a treadmill next to one of your teammates, you just be talking. You're going eighteen miles

an hour, but you're just chatting. No problem. You get off, you take one big, deep breath, and your your heart rates back to fifty. I missed those days, but I remember what it took to get there. Going to high school, I didn't realize that basketball was a business. And my high school coach at High Hull, who just retired last year as the head coach there, told me to just enjoy this year because remember, this will be the last

time you play for fun. It won't be the last time you have fun playing, but it will be the last time you play for fun. Wise words, and I was in a wait. They told me about weight rooms. I was like what, and tracks and running on. So that's when I learned that. But also my mother was diagnosed with cancer at the same time, and so I realized that if I'm going to be here, it is a sign of abject disrespect to my mother to fail in this pursuit. And so That's that's what it was.

Every run, every step, every lift of a weight was a step towards scholarship security. My mom being proud. Wow, makes makes a ton of sense now, it really does, so far away from home. Every player's journey to the NBA is different, some more difficult than others. John's college career was special. I remember watching him play a year in the SEC for Vanderbilt in nine. I could tell

he was a problem. Then he transferred to Penn State for three years before going undrafted, but did amazingly get signed in nine by the Cleveland Cavaliers, becoming the first undrafted player to start in their first game. John played twenty eight games in Cleveland before injury. He then went overseas to play in Italy, Greece, and the UK before coming back to the NBA in n with the Orlando Magic, where he had a breakout season, averaging ten points per

game over eighty games. He had one more season in Orlando, playing in all eighty two games. John then played three more seasons as a backup in Utah. Five seasons overall in the NBA is a good career, but his biggest contributions to the league and the world of sports were still ahead of him. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. A British sportsman is creating a state side after admitting that he's gay. Why does America care?

Because John Amici was a professional basketball player, a sport with a very macho image, in a sport that has been graced by some legendary athletes. John Amici was ordinary, but he's creating an extraordinary fuss in the US by announcing that he's gay. Those who followed the sport closely to say the revelation is unprecedented. You know, I know you've talked about this and written about it in your book. Uh, you're in the n b A. You're a gay man

at a time when it's not accepted. Forget pro sports, it's not even accepted in daily life in most parts of the country. What was that like and what do you think when you see the world today where Ellen is the most popular TV host for the a's decade. Um So, I pretty much put my social life in a box under my bed, And it wasn't just about being in the closet. It was that I was never sure.

I don't know if people can relate to this fear, but the idea that if I, if I really started to enjoy everything, that perhaps it would all come crumbling down and not just like being out. That was one of those things. But one of the advantages that I always have a slightly frivolous way, was that because I'm British, people could never tell if I'm British or if I'm gay. They just couldn't tell. And so, you know, and I looked at some of the footage I did because I'm weird.

I did a ton of the n B A inside of the NBA, you know, the ones that were Shardamad used to one used to do a mad restand mad Reshard there we go used to do. And I've looked at one of them, and there's one of them where I just say to the lens my teammates, no, I'm different, and it's like wow, I mean, I didn't even realize

I was, you know. So essentially, I just was afraid that if I had too much fun in any dimension, if I moved away from my focus on being a starter sitting in Orlando in the league, then I would lose it all. So it was very easy to just pretend for a while that I didn't have a life outside of that. Did it Now that you're saying this, it just breaks my heart somewhat, well quite a bit.

Did it inhibit you really establishing strong relationships friendships with your teammates, just just for the fear that, you know, maybe if you got close enough with them that if you shared, you know, whatever, that I can only imagine. Man,

I'm sorry. So my teammates asked in Orlando and Utah. Uh. The only person I didn't answer was Greg oost Attack, simply because he asked me as we were walking out onto the court to play the game, and I was like, this is we are not having this conversation right, And it never came back up again. But for my teammates, certainly in Orlando, you know, it just was one of those things where as long as we don't talk about it, everything's fine, and people treated me with love and care.

They did. Um. It required a compromise on my side, but it's love and care. It's weird, really, because although it's not true that every NBA player has a girlfriend in every every city, it is true that there are what could be considered alternative lifestyles operating within the league, and so it's kind of ironic to me that non monogamous alternative lifestyles are somehow more appropriate. And I don't have a judgment on that, by the way, as long

as it's consensual around and everything. Night. I had never even I had never even put that together. Brilliant. Yeah, And it's it's such a weird thing to see, you know. I remember somebody because they knew I was studying psychology,

one of my teammates on the plane. They used to come and sit next to me and or opposite me on the on the plane if they had challenges or problems, and so I remember one of the first ones that happened was when one of my teammates sat opposite me and said john And I didn't say Johnny said meach meach, can you help me out? Uh? My wife doesn't like

my girlfriend? And I just thought, right, what what? What an amazing thing to say, but but also lovely that you think I can help you with this as a psychologist. But also then that that that tinge of how weird is it that this is a normal conversation That in no way would I ever and nor should it make me think you are a bad or wrong person as long as there is something, you know, some sense of knowledge,

which that clearly was. But for me, as a person without a partner, just the very fact of being a gay person could somehow cause me harm. And it could, you know, in Utah, it was people knew I was gay in the organization and they did not like it

at all. Um, you know. And it wasn't just there in Orlando talk in my last year there the you know, I was being given books by the i think the president of the organization, who was prolific in writing Jesus late and books about business and Jesus Lading, books about whatever else. And they would just be dropped into my locker and I was like, I don't understand this. I know I'm a reader, but I don't think that's why I'm being given this. And the arrogance of that, the arrogance, Yeah,

I'm so sorry. Maybe he thought his writing was so compelling it would change my very nature. Maybe I'm so sorry. You're living the life of an NBA player, you're also a person with feelings, needs all of that. You're not in your home country, and you're still not someone who loves the game, you know, particularly and you're hiding who you are? How did you even manage to who? Now we've already you did have two or three really good seasons in the NBA, and that's not something just anyone

can do. But doing it while you're you're hiding a big part, and you're getting older and you're you know, understanding more about yourself and your independence, how did you even manage to do that? To play at all? I the you know, part of being in America. My mother

only ever watched me once play. It was it was a game against Wisconsin at home at Penn State, and we lost badly, and she was there, wrapped in she was emaciated, she was wrapped in blankets to keep a warm in the stands, and she watched me lose and play badly. Um. I missed all the good time I could have had with her, all of it. I would never disrespect that by rejecting the job I had promised

to do. And this was the job I promised to do. Um. And also I knew, you know how players sometimes we talk about how players are born to something, and I just knew that every time any player who looked at me, however good or bad, they thought I was. They must know that I had earned my way here starting at seventeen and a half, from the day I picked up at basketball. Six years later, I was in the league.

They was starting in the league. It's amazing, and so they must know right that, even though I'm not as good as many of them, they must know that I've earned the right to be here. The ironic part was that lots of my not lots, but at least one of my coaches didn't believe that. He thought that because I didn't love the game, I didn't deserve to be in the league. There are Hall of Fame, There are Hall of famers that didn't love the game, you know

very much. So, yeah, let's talk about our society for a second. What we put on athletes. You know, who they're supposed to be and how they're supposed to be. Did you observe that as a player, You certainly must now as a professional. Mm hmm. Yeah. I was intrigued by the impact that athletes had. Even in high school.

I recognized very um my first high school game, I walked in the gym, and don't forget from England, if a couple of parents showed up, you were in hog heaven, right really yeah, yeah, it's it's not no noon, It's not a big deal. Um. You know, we have a professional league here with the average salaries about dollars, so it's not big time. And I got to this gym, in this high school gym in Toledo St. John's in Toledo, Ohio, and there were people in the stands going absolutely nuts.

There were my classmates with no shirts on and the names of the team each letter. You know, it was unbelievable. And then people are asking me about my opinions on stuff, and people are asking me if I could come and talk to some kids at a junior school, and you suddenly realized this impact. I got to college and I suddenly realized that when I spoke, people listened. When I talked about the kids in Center County and the problems that we're having with drugs there and there the issues

that were happening with poverty there, people listened. It was remarkable. It's your superpower. It really, it's all of our supero it's your superpower. I think people mistake you are um considered and thoughtful, and I can't imagine a moment where you post something and you don't realized that it could have this profound impact. This thing that is almost inconsequential to you could have this profound impact on other people. I didn't learn this lesson properly until I was in

the league. I didn't learn for all that what I've just said, I didn't learn it properly until I was in Cleveland playing for a This was Cleveland terrible, right, Who is the center that just retired with injury? Um, Larry Nance was gone, like all those about Dirthy gone. Everybody's got Mark Price gone. And so here I am in this Cleveland team. It's the only reason I'm playing on it. I was undrafted, but I played my way through, and I was in the mall, the Cleveland walls where

I was. I was living at the hotel next door because I didn't think I would be able to keep my spot, and I would go to the mall just to chill out. Um, because nobody even cared. Nobody yet, you know you you couldn't have done that. I was that. I was wearing all the Cleveland stuff right, like an insecure clear I was. I was like, yes, but nobody cared because we were so bad and I was so bad.

I was starting on this terrible team. And then suddenly this big black woman is rushing through the crowd and I can see she's heading for me. She comes towards me and then she jams into my hand a napkin and it is a used napkin from Panera bread and it has it has mayonnaise on it, and it is stuck to my hand, and she says, will you sign this for my boy? I look her boy is behind her. He wants no part of this. He knows that the

cabs are terrible and that this guy is terrible. And so I just happened to have a sharpie with me. That that was the stage of my career where everything I wore there was that I had a sharpie with me, and so I signed it. And then instead of handing it to her, I just reached around her and I shook this kid's hand and then I put this mayonnaise autograph back in his hand and turned around, and she

turned around and dragged him through the crowd. And then for some reason, as I'm walking out, I just turned around and I see that she can't pull her kid through the crowd anymore. He's just stood there and he's kind of staring at his hand with the autograph. He's staring at the hand that I shake. And that's when it hit me. I am a terrible basketball player on a terrible basketball team that nobody in this small cares about. Sometimes the most inconsequential thing you do. And this is

the beauty of athletes when they're at their best. Not on the court. This is the beauty of athletes at their best. These inconsequential actions can have these massive ripples. This kid's are psychologist. Now, I got a note about six years agome on. He followed my career. He knows that I'm a psychologist. He's become a psychologist. He's a clinical psychologist. My you know what a store from a mayonnaise autograph? That is just it gives me goose bumps.

I mean, come on, you don't give yourself, you know, seven points a game or whatever my career averages. But the campath it can make a difference. No, God, that's beautiful. Well, from there, let's talk about the intersection of race and sports, because sports has always been a class and power struggle. Even now, the owners are billionaires and the players mere millionaires who are still commodities to be bought and sold

and traded. But then you add race, what do you see in the world of sports today and how does it compare to the pro sports world that you were in. So I don't know what your experience was, but I have always felt that my experience with players is a more conscious group of people than they in the locker

room than they talked about outside the locker room. I remember during presidential cycles, UM, having influential politicians come into the locker room, and not just Democrats, but people from different perspectives to talk about the issues that they felt were important. Some of the conversations we had around I remember sitting in the locker room when the o J verdict was was was saying was announced. Um, I remember the conversations we had then. It's been a fascinating, um

enlightening journey to see this. What disappointed me back then was how public stupidity, public no, no, not fair. The dumbing down of the public persona seemed to be an important part of the picture. The idea that players didn't want to appear too clever, too tuned in, too controversial, to opinionated, whereas now that seems to have changed, and I think it's changed because the women have led the way.

I think in the in the league, it's the w n b A, it's those remarkable women who led the way and were punished initially by the way and then changed the picture. And they changed the picture. They not I mean, they essentially changed the whole ball game. Uh. It took miss McConnell out of power. I mean, but that was the women, and they agree. We have followed their lead. Yeah, and that I've been really pleased to

see people doing things on an individual basis. I would love to see people do things on a more concerted and connected basis. I'm not super connected. I do bits and pieces with the league now, but but I'm not super connected with what's happening on the team basis. But one of my biggest disappointments with Michael Jordan not that I should be allowed to have an opinion, perhaps, but I think he could have transformed America. And people think

that this is hyperbole, but I do not. I think that he was the kind of person in his a, in his era, I mean, who could have created a coalition to do something about child poverty, to do something about the dis outcomes from education and things like that. His particular perspective Republicans by sneakers too, I think has been devastating. I think the approach of people like Lebron and others. Um, somebody who I love very much, I think is a remarkable man as Deck. I just think

he's amazing. Um is who dee Sorry to kem By. Yeah, I think just just you know, I don't know how many hospitals he's built now, I don't know how many causes that he stands up and rails for, but just remarkable. I'm with you, and you know what I want to say. Both of those men, uh, Michael and the Kimba represented by the same man, David Falk And I came up right behind Michael, and Michael was fame and success came upon him in a relatively fast time, kind of like yourself.

He went from being a McDonald's All American to being this thing. And he was kind of especially when I came in the league in the late eighties, mid to late eighties, he was. And not that it's right, I'm just saying it was how it was nobody, nobody white or black, really felt and maybe it was our education and all that felt like we could say anything for fear of, you know, losing our our jobs. And I think he was that way too at a certain point, and then he was kind of being asked to do

something different. I think to Kim Bay and Lebron and all those guys have been inspired and in recent years, Michael is coming, He's coming along. I'm with you. There was a time where in a perfect world man, because he was as famous, they would shut malls down for him, right, do you remember like they did from Michael Jackson. So I'm with you. I just wanted to kind of follow that up. Uh and and to Kimbay what he's doing unbelievable. Last last thing on sports, because there's so much more

to you than basketball. What do you think of when you think they're roll sports play in society? What value do they have to society? And should we continue to

hold them up? Sports over promises and underdelivers. It doesn't matter what website you look at, the IOC, FEVER, FIFA, any of these big international bodies, even the NBA, the league, if they did what they promised on their website, the world and not just the sporting world would be a better place if they leverage their influence and their power, their money, and they're convening authority. The world would be

a better place right now. There are some sports, more than others, that run the risk of simply being a minstrel show. You get in front of the camera, you perform, everybody collaps, you go home. That's not enough. I don't think it's not enough. It may be enough for the individual player in that on that day, it's not enough for the league to end it there, and it's not enough to flash a few messages that say don't do drugs, or or anti racism is cool, or whatever else. You

have to live that. You have to decide if you'll go to certain countries that think that killing throwing gay people from the top of buildings is appropriate, or in turning Muslims is appropriate. You have to make tough decisions, and I'm not sure that sport is interested in those tough decisions. I mean, she's no ordinary British sportsman, the basketball superstar. It seems like Orlando Magic and the Utah

Jazz in America. He's also studying for a doctorate in child psychology and hopes he can do his bit to help motivate youngsters like these pupils at the Earnest Bevin Sports College in South London, John and Macchi. In recognition of your many achievements in psychedethy in sport, it gives me the greatest pleasure to ask Mark Stevens, Chair of the Border Governors, to confer on you the award of

Honor Doctor of the University Honors Cows. You're a psychologist, tell me in the audience how and why you became a psychologist. This is a long and convoluted story. Have people have to buy my book to really get the fullness of this, but my new one and my old one. My mom was a bit a gp. I watched her work and I marvel at this because back in the day, when I was seven years old, I would go on

visits with her to patients houses. She worked in palliative care, so people who are not going to get better, and I would end up sat in living rooms with fraught, devastated, anxious, scared, terrified family member and as at seven, I would just sit there and I remember telling my mom that the air is so heavy, it's hard to breathe. After being in one of those rooms, It's so hard to breathe, and everybody, I think, can recognize that sense of dread

and how it almost literally weighs on your chest. And I could feel that. But I would also watch how my mom operate it. She'd come into a room and she would look at every single person and it was like she was doing the thing that she did to me, just pouring sunlight into people's heads, and she would tell them you can do this, You're gonna do this and this, and I would listen as they just repeated back what she said like she was a guru, and I thought

she was magic. And then in my mom took me to see Star Wars, and if you've ever seen Star Wars, there is a scene thirty four and a half minutes in thirty five and a half minutes in the new cut where Obi, Wan Kenobie, and Luke are going into Moss Eisley and they get stopped by the Stormtroopers and I'm confused because I think the film is going to be over and obiwe just looks at the stormtroopers and

these aren't the droids we're looking for. We can move along, move along, and they just repeat what he said, and I think I was like at seven. I have seen this before, and so that's the point that I knew my moments a Jedi. I asked the librarian at my local library, how do I become a Jedi? M After I had to disabuse her of the idea I was talking about Star Wars, she told me that psychologist was

the closest thing she could think of. And that's why I'm a psychologist, because it's the closest thing I can do to being a Jedi. Miss an accompliced God. That's beautiful, That's just beautiful. Let's talk about the world right now. It still seems extremely fractured, and the pandemic continues to be an issue. What's John the person think of everything that's happening? And then what's John the psychologist think about it? John the person? Can you even do that? Yes? Yes.

The problem with me is that A I live alone, and so I have just and I get up at five in the morning, so I have just copious amounts of time to think about stuff, and so I have thought about this. Um, here's the problem I as a person. Sometimes I'm surprised I'll wake up in the morning. Sometimes I go to sleep and I am afraid that the rage that I feel will strangle me in my sleep, The rage at the callousness, at the ignorance, at the stupidity, at the cruelty, at the avarice of the world. Who

will kill me in my sleep? I that is me. John the psychologist and Jedi is somewhat more resilient than that. And I know that for every thing I see that causes me pain and makes me worry about the future of humanity. Every once in a while you peek into a corner of the Internet, or you have a conversation with somebody online or in person, and there it is that shaft of sunlight that makes you think there is hope. That that's it's hard, but there is hope. All that

personal strength, the gumption that you have, the toughness. What are things you still struggle with today? H M. Most things I've struggled with, like body image issues since I was a kid. I was a super fat kid. And you know, one of the things that I most regret. And I don't know if you have any of these, but I have one picture of me with my shirt off when I played. Yeah, I've got like one from like high school. Yeah, I it was when I was in the league, I've got one. When I definitely didn't

have one. You would never catch me. You know. I was the guy who when I was in England before I left my sister's bless him, they would bring a big beach towel to the corner of the pool because then you I wouldn't get out unless I could wrap it up around my chest because I knew I was a fat kid. But the problem is that in the league, I thought it was fat and you were four body fat.

My my key years, I thought it was fat and still so I know I'm chunky now and the problem is at fifty I'm passable, and so people are like now. But if you if you're gay and you have this much body fat, you are way too fat. Trust me, nobody's looking at you. So that's something I struggle with. I think the sense of hopelessness that I thought I would have made more of an impact on the world

by now. And I don't mean I haven't made any impact on the Oh I've got a anti racism video out there that's had ten million views, and I know I hope that the things that I do help people to be more resilient. I knew that basketball wouldn't be the place where I got to be the Michael Jordan's I thought that psychology might be and and I'm not finished yet, but I'm not where I thought I would be. Okay,

I'm going to accept the answer. However, the fifty thousand ft of view is you're the first to do something, a couple of firsts, and that impact. Everyone knows you in sports, everyone and we hope, I hope that you know you doing what you've done and how you've gotten there becoming a Jedi, and basically it all goes back to your mom's strength, which gave you strength in every facet. You are making this impact and this I mean, you're fifty I'm fifty four at this point. You're just starting. Man,

you're just starting. I said I wasn't gonna ask more sports questions, but it's only a sports question because it's about you. You went from never playing basketball for the first seventeen years of your life to the NBA in just six years. What's it say about you? And how does that part of what's in you help you navigate the world. It says that I understand myself really well,

that's that's the big key. It's it's about introspection. People think it's about drive and ambition, and that is important, but I have no more of that than any other person who is accomplished. The difference is that I know myself really well. So the reason I made it to the league is because I know that I am fundamentally lazy. Give me an option to save energy, I will take that option. Give me an option to skip practice, I

will take that option. Give me an option to go through the motions in practice, I will take that option. Uh that I'm lazy, Give me an option to not prepare, to not watch take I will take that. And so fundamentally, this self knowledge don'll have me to structure my life. I ate the same I tell people this all the time. I'm quite proud of this. I ate the same lunch for a decade in the league because I knew that

variety is my enemy. Variety is what leads to cheesecake for me, whereas brown rice, broiled chicken, and some kind of green vegetable that leads to consistency makes you feel like you've earned the rest of whatever your day is. Right Bingo, yeah, yeah, I get it, I get it. My goodness, John, thank you so much for being a guest today on the show. I do hope we can have you back because your perspective is incredible and not only me, but I think everyone needs to hear more

of it on all sorts of things. Thank you, buddy, It'll be a pleasure. Thank you. Rex Charges is created by Portlay and Control Media. Is produced by DV Podcasts in association with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit i Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. M