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What is AI actually for? Everybody is talking about AI. Wall Street is obsessed with AI. AI will save us. AI will kill us. It's just AI, AI, AI, everywhere you turn. But what does any of that actually mean, like in your life right now? That's what we're currently exploring on the verge cast. We're looking for places and products where AI might actually matter in your day-to-day life. And I don't just mean for making your emails less mean. Though I guess that's good too. Lots of big new ideas about AI. This is
the last month on the verge cast, wherever you get podcasts. Welcome to channels with Peter Kafka. I'm the chief correspondent of Business Insider where I cover tech and media. And today we are talking about the future of computing maybe. That's going to sound like hyperbole. Maybe it is. But today is the day meta and Mark Zuckerberg are showing off Orion, which does the thing. Lots of people say they want out of it.
But if you're a gadget, it's a computer shrunk down to a pair of glasses. It's pretty wild stuff. I've tried Orion briefly. So as Alex Heath, the verge, he's tried them for much longer and warned them while interviewing Mark Zuckerberg. So we're going to talk to Alex in a bit. But first I want to briefly describe what Orion is and why I think it's so compelling.
First and foremost, these are computer glasses you cannot buy because meta is not selling them. They spent many billions of dollars in something like a decade building these things and they still can't make them cheap enough to sell them to you and me.
Alex Heath, who is deep in this stuff, estimates they currently cost meta about $10,000 a piece. So it's not a consumer device yet. And these are definitely bulkier than regular glasses. I'm like meta's Ray Bands. You're not going to fool anyone when you wear these. You're not going to look cool either.
Unless you're deeply, deeply in the like revenge of the nerd slash Elvis Castello look. But what Orion does is cool. It lets you walk around with a heads up display and you can see text or videos or video chats or whatever.
And you can interact with all that while you're looking at everything around you. And you can manipulate everything on that screen with a combination of eyes and voice and finger gestures. So you can think about looking up instructions about how to change a tire while you're looking at your lug nuts.
So you could call up a score of the Vikings game while you're watching the Eagles. If you were the kind of person who's into this sort of thing, you could read a text while you're looking at somewhere the eye and talking to them. I think those people will probably get punched, but you know, your mileage may vary. It's possible meta will not get over the hump and this one being a vaporware footnote and yet another failed attempt at bringing science fiction glasses to life.
But I don't know they seem pretty close and meta certainly thinks they're close, which is one of the reasons they're showing them off now. For comparison, I've also tried the Apple Vision Pro. You guys should all do that. You can go to the mall and the Apple store. They will show them to you for free. It's half an hour. It's well worth your time. And that is the device Apple is actually selling and Orion does not have the power and polish that the Apple Vision Pro has.
But the Apple Vision Pro, it's a bulky name. It's also a bulky thing. It can't go anywhere, not really practically. And when you're done trying the Apple Vision Pro, you go, wow, that was super impressive. And then you don't really have a reason to use them again. But Orion sure seems very portable and worth them for half an hour, pretty comfortable. And while you look like a nerd wearing them, you also look like wearing glasses because you're wearing glasses.
And that means you can walk around with a computer on your face while you're walking around the real world. And that seems like something lots of people would be interested in. It also seems like something Mark Zuckerberg has wanted for a very long time. That's a consumer device of his own. A popular consumer device of his own. Because right now meta is dependent on Apple and Google's devices and Zuckerberg hates that. And now he looks like he's just about there.
Next up, a chat with the Verge's Alex Heath, who I spent time with both Orion and Mark Zuckerberg. And he's got interesting insight into both, including why Zuckerberg is loudly telling everyone that he's done apologizing and done with politics and why he wishes he completely redone the aftermath of the 2016 election. Here's me and Alex Heath. Canva presents the killer of productivity. It was an ordinary work day until I know this meeting. I could have been an email.
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Alex, see if you are a deputy editor at the verge. I prefer to think of you as the kick-ass tech reporter at the verge. One of many, but maybe the most. You also write the excellent command line newsletter. How you doing? Good. That's very kind of you. Thanks for having me, Peter. That's me very kind. I just told the listeners about my impressions of Mark Zuckerberg's new wonder glasses, but you've also gotten time with them. I've got more time than I did.
And unlike my experience, you got to talk to Mark Zuckerberg about them. So let's talk about all of that. First of all, you are, I'm just, I just kind of screw around with these glasses, but you take these things really seriously. You've tried all you've tried the Apple Vision Pro, you tried the new snap spectacles. What do you think of these? I was impressed. Caviarting as I'm sure you have in Will's that it's a super controlled demo, mostly on rails. I'm impressed.
I think they've managed to pack a lot of technology into what is a surprisingly digestible form factor. I mean, I don't know about you, but like just the first time I saw them on a table. I was like, wow, those almost look like real glasses. And that wasn't really even as someone who's I think reported on these more than anyone over the years.
I wasn't quite expecting to feel that when I saw them, but then also, yeah, the experience of using them, I think that is onto something. Obviously, it's not going to be a product for several years, but obviously that's not the point of them showing it to us now either. Yeah, I want to talk about the point of showing it was Zuckerberg there when you tried them up.
So I got two demos the first time I actually broke, I'm told I broke the record of continuous wear with them at about two hours. And that was, yeah, that's a cry for help. It's a cry for help. That was the first day. And then while we were shooting a bunch of stuff for the verge, we've got like a video on the verge, you can see of using them. And then, yeah, the second day, interviews Zuckerberg, and we use them together. He beat me and pong pretty handedly.
Is it fun to play with Mark Zuckerberg's gazillion dollar demo stuff with him at the same time? Yeah. Is it nerve wracking or is it cool? It's a mix of both. I mean, I've done these interviews time to their conference now. This is the third one in a row. So we have a bit of a rapport now, but yeah, it's always, you know, this is like a new Zach and away to in terms of how his persona has changed over the last year or so. But yeah, he's also just like a hyper competitive person.
So he really didn't want me to win and pong and he succeeded in that. All right. Well, it's always good to let the billionaire win occasionally. So he's he has been talking about these glasses for years now. And then over the last year, he's really been teasing them. They showed them off. You cannot buy them. What is the point of them showing these things off in such a high profile setting?
It's a good topic for this podcast because it is a lot about the media. It's a lot about perception. If you are showing a product off that people can't buy, it's probably because you're trying to influence perception of either what you're going to release in the future or the state of the company you are now.
And I think it's a mix of both here. I think they want to, I guess, let me just not be cynical for a second. I think they're genuinely pumped that this thing even works. I think they thought that they may not be able to build even a working prototype by this point. And this is, you know, honestly, this project has been in development for 10 years, which says a lot about the state of AR and how difficult it is. But they thought by this point, maybe they wouldn't even have a working prototype.
The fact that they do, I think, means, hey, even if we made the difficult call to not ship this a couple of years ago, we saw something to show we have a line of sight as Zuckerberg told me to a commercial product now. And maybe it's time to show the world what we've been working on. I mean, the headlines about how much money they're spending. Billions. Many, many millions. Over 55 billion. And that's for virtual reality.
And the thing to tease apart, apart there is that most of that has actually gone to the development of Eric glasses. The only thing we see in the public is quest is the headsets because that's all they put out so far. But they have spent so much money on just Orion as a product, but the entire line of AR and wearables. And I asked Zuckerberg, like, you know, if you could guesstimate how much you've spent just on this one product, is it more than five billion.
And he very quickly was like, yeah, probably. So I mean, this is just like a huge investment. And I think they want something to show for it.
Because in the old days tech companies were kind of famous for showing off concept stuff, right? That's vaporware, right? Stuff that wasn't necessarily vaporware. But oftentimes they'd show you something, tell you it might come to market, but it never showed up. And then for the last, I don't know, as long as the iPhones been around basically the idea was, here's our new gadget and you can buy it immediately or in a few months or whatever.
So this is kind of a reversion to that, but it sounds like you think this is kind of aimed at Wall Street, like, hey, I am building a thing company, some slack. I'm still minting money from the ad business, meanwhile I'm making the future here. I think it's partially Wall Street. I think the stock is doing very well. So that's probably not the driving factor, honestly.
I think when you're working on something on one of these teams for so long, and it never ships and it never sees the light of day, it's actually very hard to keep a team like that going. It's hard to keep leaders. You really value that institutional knowledge. And I think people building this want to have some kind of fruit of their labor, even if it's not a product that people could go buy it best buy.
And it helps with recruiting. It helps with just perception of the company as an innovator, which is obviously something they care very much about, especially after kind of the headlines of the last decade. And so, yeah, this whole, this whole Orion thing is very much about perception. And that's not to say the technology is not impressive. It is.
I've tried, like you said, all the headsets and I was very impressed by what they put together, but also caveatting that it's not something that would be put together into a product. This costs like about $10,000. I've been told to build each pair. So this is not a product, but it's a technical path that they now see a line of sight to consume reform.
Have they offered you, yes, this is coming within three years, five years, pick a date, three years is about right. If you talk to them on the record, they won't give you an exact date. My reporting suggests about three years. So I told more than one person, discreetly in advance, that I was going to go to to meta and I was going to see their crazy new glasses that cost $10,000. You can't buy them.
And in my very small sample size, no one cares. They're like, who cares about these things? And you know, these are not necessarily tech people, but you know, they have a sense of that everyone has these goggles. And that no one really seems to care about them except for kids who use them as toys for a little bit. People are spending billions and billions of dollars developing these things.
How much of it is because collectively, whether it's meta, Apple, snap, because they think this is a thing that people are going to want to use in the future, where they can get it right. And how much of it is kind of very, very expensive, FOMO, where they're worried that snap or someone else is going to make this thing, they won't have it. And so they've got to invest all this money now.
I think they feel like what they've built with Orion in terms of being a working prototype that like you can use and it's not totally just software being beamed into hardware, like on a video, like it's actual interaction that works in real time. They think, and I actually believe them that this doesn't exist anywhere else. I don't think Apple has anything like this. I don't think snap does. Actually, I know snap doesn't. And so they feel good about that.
So I mean, sort of collectively that there's this in this, but you know, for more than a decade, right, all of these tech companies, cutting edge companies, spending tons and tons of money, hiring this smartest people, chasing this thing without, you know, they've sold some, right.
But there isn't a ton to show for it. It certainly is not the next iPhone is the expectation that when they get it right, this will be the next iPhone. And if you have a chance to make the next iPhone, whatever you spend an R&D up until that point is worth it. Yeah, absolutely. They and really everyone actually, I would say this is one of the only things that ideologically aligns snap Apple meta, maybe even Google to an extent, is that there's a belief that
AR glasses at scale that actually work that actually have utility will be phone replacements and it's kind of like AI in the sense that yes, it costs a lot, but the outcome is so great that you've seen this a lot from Zuckerberg and Pachai and other CEOs on earnings calls in the last year or so saying yes, we know the cost to train and deploy these models is a lot, but the cost of missing out on this potential next wave is more.
And I think AR for Zuckerberg in particular represents that because he has this unique context and he talked to me about this and you know, he's been open about this over the years, but that they've lived under the thumb of Apple and Google for a long way. Right. The only way you could get to Facebook's products is to use Apple or Google's products.
And especially with AI, you know, he said at one point or interview like I actually think AI makes phones really exciting again and if I had a phone, basically I'm paraphrasing but man, I'd be excited to be Apple and Google and they can do things we can't do because we're just an app developer.
So the glasses are like his sandbox. It's he gets to control it completely. And I think for someone like that who yes, maybe a lot of people just see meta as a, you know, developer a very, very popular social media apps, but the company's been around for 20 years. It existed kind of before the mobile wave Zuckerberg tried to get in on the mobile wave. He tried to do a phone. It didn't work.
And he's always wanted to have his own hardware platform. And I think he finally sees this intersection of AI and AR as that platform. I think this is obvious, but I'm not 100% convinced why goggles glasses, whatever the, whatever the thing is you're going to look at as the magic device as opposed to, you know, we had, we've talked about voice assistance. Why doesn't have to be something that you wear and look at as opposed to some other kind of device?
I mean, to play devil's advocate, if you look at the continuum of computing, we went from like main frames to desktops to PCs to phones to AirPods technology inherently gets more intimate and wearable over time. It's just been the progression of it. And I think the idea that computing overlaid in front of you is not only going to be more useful, but more immersive as well and more engaging, which for met in an ad space business is compelling.
That just seems inevitable. It does. I just wonder how much of it is just colored by us watching decades of science fiction where people have some version of this. And so we're trying to replicate that. And maybe that's not the way to go. I would posit that pretty much everything we're seeing in technology today is from science fiction 20 years ago. I mean, you have to be inspired by something.
I mean, I don't really see anything else. You'll have, you know, you want to see things. You want to see computing. And if you're going to look at computing, what comes after a blank pane of glass that you hold on your hand, which is really what these iPhones are becoming.
You know, I've heard that like the next iPhone is going to be even thinner. Like the phones are being whittled down to literal pains of glass. It seems natural that those pains of glass would just be put in front of your eyes at some point. Did you guys talk about sort of how he imagines these things become mainstream? You know, we watched Apple come out with the App Vision Pro beginning of the year.
Seems like developers are not particularly interested in developing. And even though you think Apple could convince them. How does Zuckerberg think these things get adopted by lots of people and the people build stuff to make them even more interesting?
Very slowly and then all at once. We talked a little bit about this because what you've seen with Apple and the Vision Pro and Snap and their latest spectacles is this developer and these eS Focus push early on in this thinking that even though there's no market, we're going to get developers engaged are going to help us build the platform.
And then people are going to come. And he's very clear to me that like, no, we want this to be a consumer product on day one when it ships as a consumer product. You don't need to find a reason to own it. It will work right away and you'll have an obvious reason why you want to use it. And they think that their apps with a mix of probably select partners and basic things like web browser and video calling will be enough.
And that's what we saw with our Orion demo is just a very basic idea of what an operating system like this would look like. And yeah, I think he's going straight for consumer. I mean, he's a scale guy and I don't think he wants to start slow. Even though like Orion was supposed to be a product they sold and it was going to be sold in the low tens of thousands of units, they made the call to not do that a couple of years ago.
So they kind of saw this as an enthusiast product initially. So that may be some kind of convenient retelling by him. But he does seem pretty set now that they have like made the technological breakthroughs that they feel they needed to make that they can go straight for consumer. We'll bring back Alex Heath from the verge after a word from a sponsor.
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The manufacturer suggested retail price excludes tax title license, dealer fees and optional equipment. Dealers, that's final price. And we're back. So like we've been talking about you got time with Zuckerberg, you're his sort of go-to guy for mainstream, mainstream-ish media. What else is on his mind right now? He's got a new haircut, he's wearing chains, he's out there talking a lot or talking a bit more than he used to. What is he interested in talking to you about besides the device?
I mean, obviously he's a product and technology guy. The AI stuff is what excites everyone including him. You know, I think for your audience what we talked about in the back half of the interview is probably going to be particularly interesting. I think he's feeling more candid or like he can be more candid about the last decade or so of news cycles the company's been in and is kind of over a lot of it.
There was a story today as we're speaking in the time saying you know he got into politics and now he's excited to screw that amount of politics as much as you can be when you run meta. He's always going to be involved in politics whether you like it or not. We talked about that. So I asked him about that and he said yeah, I've basically decided that we need to be as nonpartisan as possible.
He used the word naive. He was like I know this may be naive, but I'm going to try this. I think it's best for the company's perception at this scale and at this moment in time. I think he sees that there is no way to win in politics. There's no side that for someone in his position he can take that will be good for him and for the reputation of the company. So he's decided to peace out. But there is no piecing out.
So this is what I said. I was like you know that's it. I said that's a political decision. Do you understand that saying you're not to making a political stance is a political position. He's like yeah, and he's like I get it. And I think if you look at what they went through it kind of makes sense. It's like you try to lean one way or the other and you get you know shafted each time.
There's two different ideas. One which is like I'm not going to pick blue or red right. That's one non-political decision. The other is you're going to be in politics whether you like it or not because politicians are not going to let you just operate on your own anymore. There was a period when Zuckerberg was starting up right when Facebook was starting up where those guys kind got to do whatever they want it collectively.
There was very little oversight or interest from from regulators anywhere and certainly not in the US. That is no longer the case right. And he's got a very big team that deals with this stuff all the time. So he's not saying we are just going to exempt ourselves and move off planet where no one can touch us.
Kind of. I mean we ended it and I was like how are you thinking about augmented reality because if in a few years you're thinking that these kinds of glasses are going to be at scale or maybe it's more towards the end of the end of the decade. Maybe it's like early 2030s really when we're talking like low single-digit millions volume a year.
So say that happens say your best scenario happens your augmenting reality. So you've gone from you're the guy who influences what we see in our feeds on our phones to who gets to put what over what building in the real world. How are you thinking about that responsibility and he kind of threw up his hands. I mean he said something about how like you know maybe this is all just from another world. I think that was almost an exact quote.
So the richer you get the more you want to leave earth is the less than that Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff Bezos of dollars. I don't know. That's your opinion. I just think he's wrestling with this question of what is coming more than what has happened. I think he liked to talk about a lot about what has happened and he's ready to move on and also not apologize that much.
He's going to have to talk about like team mental health connections to social media and debate and basically said he doesn't see any connection and the company is going to fight this issue. And I think he feels emboldened in a way that I haven't seen in a really long time. He had that line at the acquired podcast right something the effect of you know one of the big mistakes was trying to please everyone and that was in the past and this is the new me.
He's a theme he's been returning to how much of this do you think this this is like this is on his mind if you ask him a question he will answer it versus everything about the new Mark Zuckerberg isn't an accident right. He's he's he's not a he's not a seat of the pants kind of guy and so we as a new haircut and a new chain and a new t-shirt with was a sweatshirt or a t-shirt with a the stoic saying on it.
Clothes now he's designing his own clothes he's in the Kanye mode that that is a calculated thing that he wants to get across. I mean everything at that level is calculated to a degree I do think we in the media tend to assume things are more calculated than they are. Well sometimes they are right like when he was on a hydrofoil a couple years ago like that wasn't out of his head that was people working on that with him.
Yeah I think I think it's frustratingly more nuanced than we want to admit but I also agree that there's a lot of calculating but a lot of it comes from him to and I think the company just the perception of the company tracks a lot to his behavior the two kind of mirror each other.
And so when you see him deciding not to engage in the election to not donate four hundred million dollars to ballot initiatives like you did last election you also see meta totally distancing itself from public politics. And also in the product which I think is actually more important this decision to down rank political content.
And no company that I know of at this scale has that kind of inextricable link between the founder and the CEO and the company and that's what makes covering meta to me really interesting. The other big tech leaders are either smaller smaller tech leaders or they're managing something that someone else started right.
And you can feel the difference I mean you when you're in the room you can feel the difference and it gives medicine advantages I think they move faster than a lot of the other big tech companies. It also means that Marx foils and he think he's getting a little better at like knowing and what at least articulating publicly when he makes mistakes but like his mistakes and his personality quirks become the companies right so there's a plus and minus.
But these things are not going away this is going to be a matter for a very long time I mean that was something he said to the interview was like look we're just we're going to be here for a really long time. And people make sure know what we people know you know what we stand for what we're going to fight for. And I think for the last 10 years he's felt like he's on his back foot and now he feels like his on his front foot.
So the back foot kind of started after November 2016 right where people wanted to blame someone for Donald Trump's election and tech and specifically Facebook became a real focus with some reason right and he famously sort of said something effective it's crazy to think that we had any effect on the election.
Yeah crazy thing to say since their point of the platform is to persuade people to do things like buy something and then there was the then there was the Cambridge Analytica scandal which I think was overwrought is that what he's talking about like that's where it went wrong for him.
Yeah. Yeah and you know he basically said in retrospect he didn't use the word scam but effectively Cambridge Analytica was a scam in the sense of Facebook's involvement and that it was an over hyped scandal that the idea that Cambridge Analytica slash Facebook somehow swayed people to vote for Trump right that's what he's talking about.
Yeah I mean I think people involved in Cambridge Analytica came out years after the fact and said that the Facebook data wasn't even used in the Trump campaign that it was talked about being used but it was never used. And they had to spend years apologizing in various ways for this and that's what he's talking about.
Yeah and had a little media criticism which is just that you know people see the headlines and they don't read and the media may not be quick to report on its own shortcomings on how it reports on things. Which I think is fair. Exactly. I think that's also and it's yeah and obviously Meta has done a lot of bad things in the world but I think it's easy for him in an interview to talk about the areas where he feels like the company was wrongly critiqued.
Did you guys bring up Elon Musk in this because there's the vibe shift right and people often use Elon as sort of shorthand for the vibe shift. We're not going to apologize for a big tech. We're done apologizing kind of we're going to do what we want. We're going to spend less money on things that we don't think are core. We talked about threads and how it relates to Twitter and X and he's a systems thinker.
He doesn't you know I was trying to push him on do you think threads should be the place people go to in the world when something big is happening like what Twitter used to be. And he's more hung up on the interaction. He's more hung up on like the fact that comments are weighted the same as initial posts which I think speaks to like his engineering mindset. He doesn't I think care yet whether threads is that whether it is what Twitter used to be. I don't know why he'd want it right.
I mean he didn't want to buy Twitter at various points right but like it's Twitter at its best is as a business a very small thing compared to matter. Well yeah what at the same time when he's saying the company and he himself want to distance themselves from politics why would you try to replicate Twitter right so that makes sense.
But if you are going to be that kind of text based discussion platform that's kind of real time and itchy you have to have a place for news and obviously they say oh you know we're not blocking news we're just not promoting it. Which you know sure but also we're not unhappy if Taylor Swift uses Instagram to promote Kamala Harris.
Yeah I don't know I feel like he's there still waiting and he's still waiting to see what threads will become but I didn't sense any kind of particular goal from him to make threads more like what Twitter used to be which honestly I maybe expected I don't know I thought at least like yeah if you take out politics don't you want to be a place for news. And I don't think he's quite there yet.
I don't know how you escape from news I don't know how you escape from politics but I was going to say God bless him from trying but I guess he's going to keep trying Alex he you're awesome thank you for spending time with us. Thanks for having me. Oh by the way let's do the plug you can read all about this on the verse you can listen to this I assume right. Yeah it'll be on YouTube on the Verges channel and on the Dakota podcast.
Yeah go consume all that great content from the Vox media family of content people. Thanks Alex. Thanks. Thank you again to Alex he thanks again to Jolani who helped me put this thing together late night a lot of work really appreciate it. Thank you Jolani thanks to you guys for listening and reading and writing telling other people about this show really like that. We'll see you next week. Artificial intelligence smart houses electric vehicles we are living in the future.
So why not make 2024 the year you go fully electric with Chevy the all electric 2025 equinox EVLT starts around 34,995 equinox EV a vehicle you know value you'd expect and a dealer right down the street go EV without changing a thing. Learn more at chevy.com slash equinox EV the manufacturer suggested retail price excludes tax title license dealer fees and optional equipment. Dealers that's final price. It's time to review the highlights I joined by my co anchor snooze. I would up don't.
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