Welcome to ChannelWaves, the podcast where channel leaders share success strategies, best practices and emerging trends, brought to you by StructuredWeb. Here's your host, Steven Kellum. Welcome, everybody, to ChannelWaves. I'm your host, Steven Kellum. We appreciate everybody tuning in, whether they're listening and driving in their car, whether they're watching us. We appreciate you spending a little time with us today.
I'm excited, I actually am excited to have my longtime friend Larry Walsh, who is the founder and CEO at Channelnomics, joining us. Welcome, Larry. Hey, Steven. So here's how we got here today. I reached out to Larry and said, hey, we've done a bunch of podcasts before. Let's get on, talk about what's going on in the world.
I asked him about partners and I said, we can talk about this very broadly because I go back and forth in my conversations because a lot of times we talk with our vendors about what's working for them on the tech stack. Right? We're channel marketing automation platform. Lately, it's been a lot of conversations around partners, which I like because I used to be a partner. So it's really easy for me to sit in there and go, I can relate to this. We're going to keep this pretty, pretty succinct.
There's a couple of things I wanted to ask Larry about, and Larry has a take on it. I'm sure the first one is partners are ROI'ing their time. And I saw a couple of articles about this, and I've been talking about partners ROI'ing their time, I don't know, for 10 years.
And so it makes me feel really good to start to see a lot of conversation around the fact that there's a realization that, you know, understanding of what partners are going through and that they're just not ROI'ing an outcome of something they're doing. They're literally from six or seven o' clock in the morning going, I'm ROI'ing my time, and if it's not valuable, I'm going to go do something else. Thoughts? I think that's true to a certain degree.
I think it's not necessarily that there's a choice of if it's not worth my time, I'm not going to do it. It's more of once a partner finds their scene, you know, the, the, the groove that they can really makes maximize their, their returns on, they stay in that groove until it's no longer productive.
And so that is a. And I think that that creates a, a, a, a gulf between them and the vendor or the supply side, because the, the vendors are always looking forward to what do we need to do next to be relevant in the market, to stay ahead of the market. Whereas the partners are typically, sometimes they're laggards in this and that's. They are doing very well at the things they did yesterday and are reticent to change course just because their suppliers are going in a different direction.
And so that can create the perception that the partners are not really being productive or active. When the reality is, is that when you talk about ROI, what I'm hearing, what I interpret that is, is that they are still reaping the benefits of the investments they made two and three years ago, rather than taking on more risk for the sake of satisfying whatever the transient trend is today. Okay. So I would agree on that. Most of that. Here's the issue and here's the challenge.
Maybe it's even the opportunity. So the partners are presented with new things that they could do. Right. New. I live in the channel marketing automation world. Right. It's changing a lot. We're going to talk about AI a little bit and there's new things that they could do to enhance their demand generation, enhance their presence in the market, a digital perspective. Lots of ways they can enhance their presence.
And what I'm hearing, the way that I think about it, is as you were saying, they're in a groove. This works, right? And so you've got this much room to try something new and they're going to ROI their time on that. And if they're not successful in it pretty fairly quickly, they're gonna just, as you said, pull back and either try something different or not gonna try it at all. So maybe we're both saying the same thing. To a degree. We are.
I, I think though is that, what gets lost in, in a conversation like this one is from a, from a channel partnership ecosystem leadership perspective, the people who run these programs, the, the, the people you and I work for, Steven, they're given a task.
So from their executive leadership comes down, whatever the corporate objective and missions are, they have to assimilate to that, align with it, so that the channels, or the ecosystem or whatever we want to call it today, is a net contributor to that, to that effort. And the, the truth is, is that they don't typically think about what that actually translates into. The partner. It'll come up.
And I've had those conversations with many people who talk about, yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna offer them this because it aligns with this market opportunity we're seeing and it's going to be growing at this cagr, then we're going to give you this benefit. So we're going to discount this, we're going to rebate that, we're going to give you free this and training and materials, and everybody's going to make money. And if you really dissect that, pick that apart a bit. What does it sound like?
It sounds like underpants gnomes. And if you're familiar with the entire south park, famous south park episode about underpants gnomes is like, okay, Step one, collect this. Step three, profit. Well, what's step two? Big question mark. And from a partner perspective, there's a lot of cost that goes into that. And so if I'm making money over here this way and it's going well, but over here, it's going to cost me X to get in.
And it's another period of two to three years of ROI, then, yeah, I'm going to stick to my knitting. Well, here's the reason. The world that I live in. Okay, I'll agree with that. But I also think in the world that I'm living in, where. And we're going to talk about AI in a second about how partners feel about AI. Do we have to? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We really need to. Historically, you've seen the adoption rates and channel marketing automation side of things and how that's worked with partners.
And I think we all understand that marketing is the weakest side of what partners do. Good in product. Okay. In sales, pretty bad in marketing. Right. And so even the channel automation side of things, which sort of fits in historically into what you were talking about, we'll package something up, we'll say this is what you can do with it and we'll give it to partners and we'll see what happens because this is good for them and this will help us drive demand and make money.
And you've seen the adoption over the years on, historical, TCMA. The interesting for me is I'm a big AI person, right? I. I live in it every day. It, to me, it's just a big benefit. I have no phobias or fears or anything about it. It's totally fine. You know, I'm starting to see, we're starting to see, surprisingly, that a lot of partners are coming in and willing to, to try this and start to understand how to do things quicker and faster.
And I think it is going to lead to roiing their, their time on this because if we can get them there, they're going to see the huge benefits of it. And I also believe that certain ones are going to get there and certain ones that aren't. And there's going to be probably the biggest gap between the haves and the have nots on marketing capabilities inside the partner community since forever. Right. So sorry, I just tied in ROI in time, ROI, anything that's given to them and I all into one.
I mean I think I can, you know, let me help you out here. So for more information about through channel marketing automation go to StructuredWeb.com there's great resources there. No, like I, I think part of the reason when we, when we, we as an industry we, we are very dismissive of partners marketing capabilities. I, I would almost say that that's facts without evidence or the evidence is misleading us to a, to an improper conclusion.
So when you're sitting here talking about roiing, is this worth my time? Consider this. The average partner, the average partner is under $7 million, $3 million in top line. The number, I was one of those, Larry. So this is where I can come from. For years I ran an MSP under $7 million. Right, right. So, so, so let's, but let's just draw this out.
Okay, so when you talk about the number of partners that are doing more than $25 million in top line revenue is less than a quarter percent of the total population within the channel. Okay. Right. So these are small companies and they're typically very regionally focused, if not metropolitan focused. Yep. Right. So to go through and say I'm going to have a marketing person, I'm going to invest in these marketing programs, I'm going to do things beyond T shirts and flyers.
The ROI on that is probably limited. And so they will then turn and we can see it in our own research at Channelnomics, we released a report on this earlier this year is that the partner community is looking to the vendors to do more of the marketing lift because what are they really able to do and focus on? They're able to shape a customer experience. But where do they get the actual economies of scale or where can they leverage the economies of skills through the vendor resources?
And so I think we, we're a bit, I, I think we over rotate on this idea that partners are just bad at marketing. Maybe it's not that they're bad at marketing. Maybe at their scale it's just not efficient enough for them to be engaged. You Just made my whole point. Yeah, you just made my entire, Did you try to do that on purpose? No, you paid me to do that. This is what again is an ROI. Is ROI. Once again, it's ROI on time. It in its perceived results from that time as, as well too.
Right. Look, I always tell people, look, I'm Steven, I, I live in Napa, I sell in the wineries. I want to, I reach out to the CEOs, I sell risk mitigation business continuity. At 7 o' clock in the morning on a Tuesday, about 20 employees that are going all over the place. They are wearing a lot of hats and by the way, I need to feed my family and what am I going to do with my next hour that I have? Right? And can I, can I do it easily and succinctly?
But what I need is, hey, I need a marketing campaign for the next four weeks on demand generation, demand generation that sells risk mitigation business continuity. And I need it pretty daggone quickly and it needs to be minimalist effort for something like that to happen. Right. And that's been impossible. Okay, we got to go into the AI. Say it was impossible without the AI. It really was impossible without the AI. It just, it was just never going to happen.
Okay. I, you know, I think that AI, I was just asked this question this morning is what's the future of AI and the partner tech stack? And I said it's wonderful. It's going to be glorious. Well, when is it Today? I said it's non existent. You know, there's, there's a lot that still needs to be done. We're on the leading edge of all this and yeah, we're going to be releasing and creating tools that are going to make things easier from the partner tech stack.
There's multiple tools that are out there available to the partner community that they can adopt and use on their own. But we're still in the early days of all this and whenever anybody says move now or you're gonna miss out, okay, there's another bus coming right behind this one. And, and I don't think that there is necessarily a, a true first mover advantage. Steven and I were in an event a couple weeks ago and San Diego and I posed this question to everybody talking about AI.
Is that, is AI the means of a competitive differentiation or are we really just talking about operational efficiencies? Is it really commoditized out of the gate? And I would make the argument that AI is commoditized out of the gate is that there is such a flood of it that nobody is really getting a first mover advantage out of it. And it's not creating a separation between the haves and have nots.
In fact it's actually creating more of an equilibrium to where I could be doing something completely different from you but still having the same net effect. I'm not sure I agree with that 100%. So, so, so, so, so we'll see how this goes. Right. For instance I just had a customer of ours who had had X amount of engagements across their marketing automation platform. And then with AI and enablement, I think there's a couple pieces to this. There is a curiosity level of where this will take them.
You know they had 5x partner, engagement over the first three days, rolling out a program. How that's actually going to end up, I don't, I don't know Larry. But to me what I'm seeing is a big interest in the partners for figuring out how to do this. And I agree it's early days in terms of what the, what the long term engagement will be because this sort of gets into, we were talking about enablement side of things, right?
Can you just throw it out and think that they'll come and they will use it or are we going to have to enable the partners so that they can actually they can actually take advantage of it? Well look, there's, there's two, there's two ways, there's two sides to the AI story. It's the selling AI to the customer. You know, selling and meaning.
There, there's a product, there's a service, there's an enablement, there's an experience aspect that the customer needs and then there's the adoption of AI as a tool to make the business operations better. Now whether that is automating marketing and, and I will say that of, of all the, all the applications within the, the partner tech stack, the one that has the, the best and most obvious AI AI use right now is tcma. It's, it's a purpose built. It's actually a purpose.
It's actually purpose built. Yeah, yeah. And, and, and I'm not, I'm not blowing smoke when I say this. I'm you know like Channelnomics and StructuredWeb and we've been partnered for a long time. I have a great, great amount of respect for what StructuredWeb has done in terms of using AI to advance TCMA. But when you start Looking at this from an operational perspective, it's one piece of piece of it.
So MSPs are looking at AI to, or using tools that are infused with AI to make their customer engagements better. So using things like, like ITSM, you know, the, the ServiceNows and the Zendesk that are using AI to make that process of ingesting tickets in processing them better, or looking at customer experience platforms like Genesis or 8x8 that are infusing AI into their call center applications to make those more efficient. There's a lot that can be done on the customer side, though.
I mean, this is where things get really messy. Because the way that I view the world is that the hindrance for AI is much like the early days of the cloud where we said, oh, we can do all this stuff, but what are we supposed to do? And you have a lot of AI that is a feature within applications. Good. But it's not a product, it's a feature within the application.
And then you have these really big digital transformation use cases that multinational enterprises are building custom, you know, so the Deloittes and the Accentures roll in and they do these things in between. There's not a lot yet around AI. And that's where the gap is. And the customers are turning to the partners because they have relationships with them and saying, hey, what am I supposed to do? And the partners are like, going, well, we're not sure yet, but we know it's going to be big.
Where did we see this before? We saw this in cloud computing. This is exactly what happened. Now. This is where there is a risk for the partner community because if they don't have a good answer, the customer will go looking for somebody who does. And that's where you have to tie all this together. So for me, look, I'm just a sales guy deep down in my heart. Who? The sales guy. I'm a good sales guy. Oh, bless your heart. But no, this. Look, when I was, you know, running a, MSP, right.
I'm, the sales guy. Right. It's where I was. That's how I think about things. To me, I think it's fascinating. You know what would be really good to something that be good that came from you is how I'm surprised I haven't seen this. How AI for the partner affects their entire sales funnel. Like from the top of the funnel all the way down to the close for the customer, and then the inverted funnel, like, how are they managing and taking care of rules and all that.
It'd be really interesting to see where AI fits into it now. Full transparency. I live in the AI at the top of the funnel. And as you said, it's a purpose built thing. Right. It's pretty simple how to create, how to edit, how to localize, translate content, how to start at the very, very top at the awareness side of it. We're in the marketing world. Right. So yeah, I admit it, I sort of live up there and I sort of watched how those other pieces of AI would fit across that inverted funnel.
Yeah. But that does exist today. It's been, we've had that for a while. So within CRM, Salesforce, HubSpot, trying to think who else, Zoho has had this for a while where they actually do monitor pipeline activity or account activities and they do alerting to say, hey, have you talked to this customer? And this has been stuck at this stage for so long and going through and doing the analytics on that.
Yeah. That the next stage is to how do we move beyond the funnel to say, okay, well you've completed this. Well now what can you do with the customer? Well no, that's, but, but that is the invert, that is the back end of the funnel. Right. It's so like that whole back end, not like the sales funnel goes this way. And then when it's done it is like how do I take care of the customer and engage the customer and get the customer to, to buy more, sell more, whatever they need to do.
I completely agree with you. And how do I respond? And by the way, you're right. I think when I, when you say go beyond the sales funnel, it's still, you know, how do I respond to the customer, across all of those sort of pieces. Right. And that's the customer service side and the support side which by the way is all driven to either cross, sell, upsell or renew. That's why they're doing it. Right. They're not doing it out of the kindness of their heart.
They're doing it out of how do I create a good relationship so that I can keep this customer or grow this customer. Yeah, I mean there's a, there's a lot to it. I think the, the the thing that people really need to understand about the customers is that they, they want. It still sticks with me to this day.
I was having breakfast with this was a long time ago, I was having breakfast with the then Head of Channels at SAP and he said to me, he goes, he wants his customers and partners to be delighted. And I'm like going, you're a German enterprise software company. Delighted is the last thing I expect to hear from you. But it's true that the customers are not just looking at functionality or even just raw performance or even trying to measure roi.
They want this to be something that is integral to the way that they operate. They want to have whether it's an Amazon experience or a GrubHub experience or Uber experience, where it's just simple and it just makes things easier for them. And that ease is a recognition. And you can see just, you know, think about this in your personal life when you go to use one of these common apps that we use for ourselves and it doesn't work. This was happening to me the other night.
I was having terrible trouble with with a parking app I use and I was getting really frustrated with it, but I was like going, I don't recognize how much easier this app makes my life when it is working. So the absence of it really does tell you what the value that it's, that it's delivering. And I think that that's what we need focus on is how does the customer experience all that and then how does that translate into renewal and expansion rates?
Yeah, look, you know the world I live in and I think it is, and the way we look at it is ease of use and then value on top of that. Because you could make something really easy to use and somebody will come and try it once and that's great. And I think that's a requirement. You've got to have that from the experience, but then you've got to add the value on top of it.
It sounds to me like with your parking app the value was actually pretty strong and you were able to actually even put up with a little bit of a hassle in that. If the values, the values that good? Oh no, no, it actually, it was a complete fail. That's what I mean. It's like it was a complete fail. And you know, just, again, just, just extrapolate this out to what a business experience is with an application is that here I am, I'm used to this app working, working. It didn't work.
It was non responsive. I finally was able to get my parking reservation at a garage. I pull into the garage, they, they wave me off, it's full, so I have to park on the street. And so the entire time I'm in the meeting, I'm anxious about getting a parking ticket. Now does that now make me question? Am I going to use this again. Yeah, absolutely does. Yeah. Right.
Well, look that when kind of pulling this all back around, it goes back to what I was talking about earlier in that, you know, once again, so a couple things. That partner is coming in and using a tool like ours or using a tool with AI. And here's what's interesting, Larry. And we're in the process of building the ROI and the value for them doing that. So if it's not easy to use out of the gate, once again, it comes back to they're going to ROI their time and they're.
And they're going to be very, They're not going to have a lot of patience. This is, this is what I'm going. They're not. Okay, we're taking this all the way back to what you said in the beginning. Partners are tried and true. They've been doing all this sort of stuff. Everything they've done is pseudo working. Unless they see a reason to go beyond, they're not going to do it.
So now we have some opportunities to try that and show them that they can do some things and, and break out and maybe do something better. Once again, it needs to be easy to use and it needs to have value. And if we mess it up. Okay, sorry, just wrapping this. It's going to go. Goes back to enablement. Right.
I can only speak of what I know, that if we don't make it easy and we don't show them how to do it and we don't guide them down that path so that they can see success, it's going to be a while before we're going to get them back and we're going to use them again. Are they going to use it again? That was so 30 minutes ago. A lot has changed. But you just got through telling me it hasn't changed. You started this whole thing that say partners have been doing it this way. They're not.
They've been doing it for years. They're not going to change. What's it going to take? No, no, no. I think, it's not that they're not going to. So, like, let me, let me be clear on this. It's not that they're not going to change. I think that the, this, the vendor or supply side of the industry makes too many assumptions about the readiness and the willingness of partners to change. I don't think that we as an industry do a good enough job of making the case of the why.
We talk a lot about the what and then we translate the what into the how. But we don't ever, we don't do a very good job of talking about the why. I agree. And that's the value. Look, I'm such a simple person when it comes to this stuff. Once again, from a partner's perspective, it has to be easy for me to do and it has to have value. That value is a pretty broad statement, right? And like what is that? How long does it take to get that value?
Is the value the same for one kind of partner or the other? What are they trying to get? Like, one partner could be just thrilled that they're able to get a demand generation campaign and they get a lead back, right? The other partner may be going now, I need to make sure that I'm actually really getting some value and some revenue. And they thought it out. I mean, there's still a lot to be proven on what that value is. Hey, here's the thing. I mean, here's a really simple thing, right?
I'll tell you what used to frustrate me as a partner, right? I sold risk mitigation and business continuity and all my vendors wanted me to use their, their content. It had nothing to do with what I did. Right. That's not very good. Now a value proposition is with AI I can blend that messaging together. It's purpose built. It's a really simple thing. Right? Yeah. I mean, look, it's the old, what's the old, the old response of, you know, so enough about me, let's talk about me.
Which is the way a lot of vendor content is created. And one of the things that, you know, StructuredWeb is doing very well is creating, using that content as the foundation to create net new ideas that are more tailored towards the value proposition or the, the messaging that the partners want, want to convey. I, I think that that is, that is, you know, because as a, as an ink stained wretch that I am, so, you know, at my core I'm a writer. That's what I do.
Putting, words together is hard for people. I, I, and to me it's, it's unfathomable because I sit down and just words flow from my fingers and, and that's just the way it goes. For a lot of people, being able to create a crisp, coherent and poignant message in words, whether it's written or spoken doesn't matter. It's hard and be able to have these tools that actually simplify that so you can then shape it rather than worrying about the creation. That's powerful. It's pretty cool.
Sorry. And I'm not trying to turn this into an ad for, for what we do. Here's the interesting thing. Then what the hell are you paying me for? Well, I. Okay, I can only talk about what I live in every day. Right. And so, I mean that's the most interesting thing for me to talk about as well too. And having lived that as a partner, everything you just said is so true. Here is the differentiator.
If you realize that that's a challenge and then we as a tech stack and a vendor community now give you the capability to do that. And then my point is, I think enough, partners are going to figure that out. Once again, this is a very purpose built, very simple use of AI and I think they are going to be ahead of the game. I think what we don't know is how fast adoption will take place, how successful partners are going to be at this, which ones are going to be successful at it.
I mean we could probably analyze that. You could do a great study on what are the traits and characteristics that are going to allow that forecasts which partners are going to take advantage of a technology like that. That'd be fascinating. I guarantee you there are commonalities and traits out there that you could do predictive analytics. We can ask AI to do that.
Yeah. Now the, the one thing that, that I am seeing more of though is that if you, if you're looking at this purely on the, on the partner side is that they are looking for things that will make their lives easier. They are looking for cues from their vendors. And I think one of the things that the vendor community is still the vendor side of the equation. They're the ones that are wrestling with a lot of the issues associated with AI and how to best use it.
A big issue that we've identified is that everybody wants to incorporate AI, in the analytics and the insights that can come from it, but nobody has the data to do it. And so when you're talking about things that are more creatively focused, TCMA being able to use a large language model to create content based on whatever the LLM has been trained on. Okay. It's not simple, but we know it's within our reach. Being able to ingest huge amounts of sales data from multiple points.
So not just from thousands of partners, but thousands of points of sale because many partners have multiple locations and being able to ingest them and normalize them and make them accessible and then to be able to do something with it that's proven to be a lot harder. And that's why the AI side coming out of a vendor community is a lot slower to really develop in a meaningful way than we, than we would anticipate.
And so let's wrap this up around partner experience because the other thing that I'm hearing is that partner experience is the North Star. And I think that ties in AI is a piece of that. Right. I know you have some interesting thoughts on is partner experience really a North Star for vendors for their partners? And how effective is that? And is that actually really a, a fairly accurate statement? Like a lot of things I, I think partner experience is one of these things that it's a bit tortured.
Because wrapped inside a partner experience is ease of doing business. And then you know, what's the total market opportunity or the economic impact of the relationship? Ultimately the, the partner wants to have a more collaborative relationship. You know, so there, and, and we do, we, we build programs and strategies and models based on, gives the gets, you know, you know, the vendor. I'm going to give you something and you're going to give me something back.
But a lot of the vendors are looking at this from a, from more of an automated motion. So what can we throw out into the ether that will make the partners lives easier or make us more compelling and then we're going to see things happen. And the reality is, is that there's, there's two levers that trump everything else and one of them is ease of doing business or creating frictionless processes which is a lot harder to achieve than people give credit for.
The second reason is engagement With account managers. And my concern as we keep talking about the incorporation, the adoption of AI on the vendor side is that they're going to come to the wrong conclusion that they can replace account managers with agents.
And the truth is, is that we should be looking at how do we use AI in Agentix to eliminate needless processes or at least speed them up so that we can free people up, to actually go out and do collaboration, do business planning, do co selling in the field to cultivate and curate those relationships to a higher level of productivity. But I don't know if that's the way this is going to shake out.
I think that the, the inclination is, is that well, let's just send them to the portal and they'll figure it out. Okay, out, of this whole conversation, this may be the first we agree on a lot of stuff where I 100% agree with you, that I think that the opportunity. And with you I believe that the opportunity is allowing the account managers to be more effective, more productive, build those relationships and then use the AI to make them better at what they do.
Whether it's their ability to handle more accounts or to handle them more effectively, to prepare for a QBR in a tenth of the time to, to be relevant. So basically you're talking about the ability to scale, strategic engagement. So if you look at it that way, if I can scale strategic engagement by eliminating all of the day to day things that, that hold that back, that's a win win. Right? Right, Absolutely. Yeah. Look, the, the.
Okay, so whether you call it a Partner Account Manager or Channel Account Manager, a BDR, it doesn't matter what we call them. It's the person who interfaces with the partner. The average account manager only spends 30% of their time working with partners. The rest of the time is, is spent on internal meetings, administrative tasks, trainings, you know, you name it. But it's anything for data, trying to find data, looking for data.
And so if you start talking about how do we use AI to take that 30% and move it up to 50%, then that shift will also have a corresponding effect, on moving the needle on sales, or at least it should. But again the way that a finance person will look at this and say, well, if AI is going to do these administrative tasks, then why do I need that salesperson or that account manager there?
And again that's where I have the fear that we're actually not going to, we're going to draw the wrong conclusions. Okay, so, so final thoughts on this. What can channel leaders do to make sure that AI is used that right way, both to make life easier for the partners, but then also I think the point, last point that you're making, and I think it's a great point, is how to make the account managers more successful. How do, how do they, how do, as a channel leader, how do I make sure that happens?
I think it's a, it's a bifurcation of what we call the tools. All right, so there's tools that we use to manage the relationships. So that's the partner, that's the PRMs, that's the incentive management, that's the TCMA. Right. So these are management tools. But I think we also need to be looking at how do we empower the account managers with tools that will help them actually go and sell with the partners?
How do we empower them with tools that actually use AI to do account mapping and, do the product selection or do the conceptualization of system designs or even more so vision that I would love to see happen is how do I take a deal registration and marry it up, so I can actually spider out to actually see the broader ecosystem engagements that can come with it and then use that to orchestrate relationships.
These are things that we need to really start thinking about the differences between administrative tools and field tools. And I don't know if that's. It doesn't really feel like we've gotten that far yet. All right, great opportunities ahead. Larry, I want to thank you for joining me for in the audience here for a few moments and sharing your pearls, of wisdom. I don't know if it's wisdom is, but sure, I'll go with pearls.
Okay, Larry, if somebody doesn't know you and listeners want to get in touch with you, what's the best way to reach Larry Walsh? So look, you come find me at Channelnomics. Channelnomics.com. You can always find me on LinkedIn as well. I am not hard to find. And you can also check out the podcast that we produce. We have Changing Channels and in the margins on, on YouTube. So there's a lot of great material out there. So I invite everybody to come check it out.
All right, thanks, Larry. Thanks, Steven.