Episode 9.5: An Interview with Nalini Singh

Oh Hello! Welcome to Changeling Cast, the podcast dedicated to reading and dissecting urban fantasy, paranormal and speculative romance series. I'm your host Mara from the YouTube channel books like whoa. And this season we are making our way through Nalini Singh's Psy-Changeling series. And today we are doing a bonus episode that I honestly could not be more excited to share with you guys. Because I am chatting with none other than Nalini Singh herself, the creator of Psy changeling

series. Honestly, who better than to talk Psy changeling with and the creator of the series herself. So we've got quite a treat here with a nice, deep dive into the series with Nalini Singh. I do want to let you guys know that there are some spoilers in the sense of if you are not caught up with the series, we do hit a point where we talk a little bit about what has happened up through Last Guard, which is the book that is coming out this July. That's the

20th book in the series. We are currently as a podcast at the time of this recording at books six. And so if you don't want to have anything spoiled for you of what happens between books 6 and book 20, I will very clearly indicate that in the interview when we're going to switch to that. And then I will also leave some timestamps below of kind of when we're going into that section and when we're coming out of it. So just know that

going in. But without further ado, first we have a good like 40 minutes spoiler free with Nalini Singh. So I hope you guys enjoy.

Okay, well guys, I am so excited to tell you that we are chatting today with the the Queen I guess or the goddess of our fictional universe we've been inhabiting. Nalini Singh is here to chat about. Psy changeling, welcome to Nalini. Hi, I'm super excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me! I am beyond tickled pink. Obviously, if you're listening to this, hopefully you know what Psy changeling is. But if you've not encountered Nalini's other books, they are also well worth

seeking out. She has a great contemporary series that has a bunch of hot New Zealand rugby players. So that's great. She's got another paranormal romance series, The Guild hunter series, which actually, you shared the cover for the latest one recently that has to be one of the most beautiful covers I've seen on a book in a while. Yeah, it's stunning. I love it so much. And there's a lot of power in it. That's just so perfect for the characters in

the book. And yeah, I I actually am going to get a huge poster of it. So I can put it on my office wall and just stare at it. I do not blame you if I pulled it up to full full view on my computer screen and was in awe at the the detail on it. Well, we are up to Branded by Fire in our reread at this point. So if you are listening along and you're not past that, we're going to try to avoid too many spoilers, it's going to be hard for me because I absolutely love

book 12. So I'm gonna have to hold myself back from asking questions on that. But I thought maybe we could start with the number one kind of question or speculation we've been having, which is, as I'm doing this reread, I am shocked at how much foreshadowing there is even from the first book as to where the series ultimately ends up going. How much planning Do you do versus how much are you just reading back into the text as you kind of make your way through the series?

So it's interesting, I I don't plan each book so I don't sit down and make a plan of what's going to happen in each book. I just let the characters show me the way. But I do. When I write a series, I always think about where the series is going. So for example, the Psy-Changeling series begins with silence. So we know what silence is, and it exists. And the question is what what happens to the Psy from this point on so like I had to know where we were heading.

Before I began, because this was my first series, Psy changeling, so, but I had sort of I had learned from watching television series, I learned the ones that were really strong, with a strong overarching plotline. They knew where they were going, as opposed to the ones that had a really cool concept. And, and then you could see the writers kind of coming up with stuff as they went along, because they hadn't thought about what the end result of that core concept

was. And so it was really important to me that I had an answer to every question. And I don't mean the small questions that come up in each book, but the huge overarching question, and the question of silence and so that part is planned, but not in terms of it's not written down anywhere, it's planned in my head. So and once I know once I know that big plotline or where the series is going, I find that my subconscious does a really good job of slotting all

the pieces together as I go. And it keeps me from going off on tangents because everything pulls back to that main storyline, that main arc that's going through the series. Yeah, so I hope that makes sense. So there's a there's an element of planning involved. But it's, it's more on the the overall picture versus the the tiny details, I, I have a lot of faith in the writing process. And in my characters to make

sure the details line up. And there are things I do book to book which, in all honesty, probably only I would notice but for example. So I'll take the example of the Ghost, I won't spoiler it, so the Ghost is a character, you know, is, is unnamed and unknown for a for a lot of the series. And so that's

a major question. And so when the Ghost first appeared, I knew who the ghost was like, I had to know their identity, to write them through multiple books, because if you reread the books after you know the ghost identity, you'll realize that no matter the timezone, no matter which part of the world, this person is never in two places at the same time, I made sure of that. And so that's what I mean about having the answer to a

question. And that means I don't make errors in the books as I go along. Yeah, that makes I mean, in my mind, I see you as having like the gigantic cork board with the red string, kind of pulling it all together. But that totally makes sense. I think I heard you once mentioned you love easter eggs. And I feel like I definitely see that as I'm doing

this reread of Oh, okay. I wonder if you sort of had an initial idea about so and so and how they may come back, you know, in three or four books and have this role to play? Yeah, sometimes it happens like that. Sometimes. It was often I'll put something in and I think it's just a passing comment, or something that's interesting. But maybe it's just like a little minor point. But then later on, I realize oh, actually, that is. That's like she really strong and it's

important to the series. And I'm glad my brain put that back there. But other times, I know from the moment a character steps onto the page, for example. You said you love book 12. So I wrote the opening scene of book 12 when I wrote Book Two, so yeah, those books. So I already knew exactly how book 12 was going to open when the character first appeared in Book Two. And every so often it happens like that, like I have a very strong idea of exactly with a particular characters going.

And so when that happens, I looked at I just write, I write it, what's come to me, and then I just keep it and yeah, like I think the opening scene. So chapter one is very similar to what I wrote all those years ago. So after edits and everything, it's still and so I think of those moments like you know, their gifts from a writing perspective because they just come in they're so powerful and they resonate and yeah, just go with it.

Yeah, wow. I'm gonna have to process that because that is an immense amount of just anticipation on your part. I would think of just having to hold have that know that that's sitting in your back pocket and just waiting for the right time to get there.

Oh, you have no idea you have no I always have I was like, when can I actually like work on this because like, literally, you know, certain things happen in a certain time, you had to get the characters to that point, you had to get the world to that point. So it would happen when it was it's time. But for me, you know, I knew what was coming. And so it's like how knowing the worst spoiler of all time and not being able to tell anybody and well, and you say, kind of the

right right time for it. I think, especially as I'm going back through, I'm having such an appreciation for your skill at balancing sort of what I would describe as the micro plot versus the macro plot in each book. And kind of having, I mean, I mentioned to you, I binged the series, the first time I read it, I could not I mean, I think I read it. Maybe in two weeks, I could not put it

down. But I think it's because you have this really lovely balance between, you're very invested in those particular characters of the story in that book. But you're also you can't wait to find out, you know, what's happening with the Psy Council, and oh, my gosh, this guy got assassinated in the last book, what's going to happen? You know, what's the fallout for that? Do you kind of just find that balance instinctively? Or is that something that you kind

of consider of? Okay, I think, you know, this is the right time for this to happen. And then that will kick off this, this and this. I would say it's more instinct, I'm generally more an instinctive writer. And particularly when I wrote my first draft, that's all it's all just instinct, I just sit down and write or do I have maybe a few very sketchy notes, and then I just go, but in terms of, when I look at it to see, Hey, does

this have the right balance? It would be in the editing stage when I've gotten quite a clean draft. But I think a lot of it just comes from what I love about writing the series, which is that I love it is very romantic. But I also love that it has this huge overarching plot going on. And so whenever I'm writing, I am aware of both those things. So I think a lot of the balance just happens, because I've constantly I'm in that world, you know, I'm living

the story. And I know that each element is as important as the other. And so yeah, every so often, I do have to go back and obviously look at does the scene really need to be here, or maybe we need another scene in the romance that needs to be visible. Because I've sort of raced past it, because I've been, there's been something really exciting going on in the plot. So those kind of things do happen in the in the editing

stage. But in general, I would say just, I, when I get into the zone, I'm living in that world, it's quite instinctive. The one thing I do actually have to be very careful about is, as the cast expands, you know, I have this just like readers, I love all the characters, you know, there's so many characters I love. And so that's one thing I actually have to be really conscious about is who comes back onto into each book, because we want to see everyone like, I want to see everyone.

And but you know, you can't have a big reunion in every book, because it's it's not their story, you know, and characters only come back when they have a role to play in each book. So I have to be very strict with myself about that. And I do. That's a conscious process. I like I think about it again, bringing this person back. Do they really need to be here? And so yeah, so that that's, that's one thing I would say I do very

consciously. And as an aside, it's actually probably why I writes, you know, all the short stories and stuff I do for my newsletter, because I'm like, okay, I haven't seen this person for a really long time. I'll just check in on that, that's my way of balancing my need to see people, you know, these characters, but keeping the plot of the current book, like tight and focused on the the central protagonists in that book. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. And I think it's a

good instinct. I mean, similarly, of course, I would love. I mean, if you just wanted to write a book hanging out with all of these guys, I mean, we would read it. But I think it's a good impulse to sort of keep keep the momentum of the story going and it keeps it feeling fresh, but Well, I'm glad you choose to do that. Because I love your novellas. I feel like they're always a nice little deepening of what we've seen of

the different characters. So, well, so one thing, we're not at At this point yet in our reread, but this series does something kind of unique. I don't know that I've ever seen a series do kind of its overall series management this way before, which is that you very consciously chose to have, I guess kind of season one and then a season two or series one series two. How has that transition been for you, as you're trying to have cohesion for the story as a whole, but you have these kind of two

distinct plot arcs? Has that been an easy transition? or? Yeah, it has been, it's actually worked quite well, because I did think about it. Because originally, you know how we talked about having an answer for the question I asked. And so without spoiling it, I'll say by the time you get to allegiance of honor, there has been a big shift in the world. So the question has been answered. And what we began with is no longer what we ended up with, there has

been a big shift. And so it felt like a natural transition point. Because, again, at that point, we have a different question. Because now society is at that point. And when I originally thought about it, I thought, Oh, well, that will be the end of the series. But then when I got to it, I realized, Oh, actually, it's a new beginning. It's a very natural, new beginning, because it's like, well, what do they do now? Because they've

kind of fixed some stuff. But it's, there's a lot of stuff that's really messed up that's come to light. And so it felt like a very natural transition point. And I also thought, I know the series, you know, the first arc is 15 bucks. And so I knew that felt quite overwhelming to a lot of

readers. And so another reason I thought I will, I need to make it clear that they can actually start at silver silence, because it is a natural entry point, again, into the series, because season two is a different question to season one. So I know a lot of people began with silver silence, and then went back and read the previous books, and they were fine. So but yeah, for me, from a writing perspective, it was it just did

feel really natural. And also, it means that with Allegiance of Honor, you know, it's a nice, felt like it was a nice, not a close, but just a nice ending to that arc, and then we got to see everyone and we didn't get to hang around with them. That's the book, where you get to hang out with the characters from the first deck and kind of see what's up with everyone. And then in Silver Silence, then I could actually shift geographically as well, into a

totally different area. And because it was the start of a new arc, you know, a new season, it was okay, to sort of begin at that point in a completely different clan, go, you know, we've been with the wolves and the leopards, and then now with the bears in a different part of

the world. So even though the series is interconnected, it it's fresh again, in a new way, which is great for me as a writer as well, because I'm very conscious of writing books that are constantly developing the world, I want us to see new new characters, I want us to have new plot developments. And I love doing that from the writing side as well. It's, you know, when I write I'm spending up to six months with a book, and I have to be really excited about

it. And so, for me, it's it's great to to constantly be opening up new pathways into the world, finding new characters fall in love with and I mean, the beers just kind of came in and then got into my heart. And you know, I never saw them coming. But then there they were. And, you know, so that's, it's it's fun. It's so yeah, it's been a it's been a good transition, I think, from the writing side. Yeah. And it's continuing, so I'll let you know how it happened. I you know how

it all goes. No, I think, yeah. Allegiance of Honor. I feel like I called that the chessboard being reset. It felt like slight sort of, you know, okay, we're putting all of our, our pawns away, we're gonna have some of them come back, but we're kind of starting over. So I think that definitely worked to for a long term readers of the series. Yeah, I'm glad to hear that. Like, I remember discussing that book with my editor. And I was

like, I'm not sure. Quite a treat as well feel about this book, because it's not the story of just one couple. You know, it's the story. It's an entwined story of this entire group of people that we've come to No, but and so I've been really happy that readers have enjoyed it. And, and I'm really happy I wrote it, because to me, it felt like there were certain characters and certain storylines that had to be tied up before that series arc could

switch. And one small thing, for example, is without spoiling also, you know, the boy who saved Annie from the train crash. And so that was, that's just a small thing. But it meant a lot to me. And I think it meant a lot to the readers who are following along on that particular storyline. And so we got, like, closure on on that. And so I didn't want to leave lots of things hanging on that part of the storyline, before we shifted to, you know, the new arc.

Yeah, well, and you know, there's so many lovable characters from that first arc, we still get to see occasionally. But yeah, I mean, this new arc, you have a whole new set of characters to fall in love with. And you have a whole new set of characters who are kind of being set up to be morally gray or, or we're getting to at least see their development from the first arc as being maybe the bad guys. And now there may be a little bit more complicated as you live with these characters long term,

what to you. So for instance, like, I don't see a way where, you know, Enrique, had he lived, could become one of our heroes, or like, Ming LeBon, I don't, I don't see it for him. But we do have, you know, some characters who go from being quite problematic, let's say in the first arc, and as time goes on, we have more more sympathy with them, and we get to know them better. What kind of separates the characters who can be redeemed from the ones who you feel like you kind of can't do

that with? Um, I guess it's more instinctive. Again, for example, you know, Enrique, he's, he's a serial killer. So, you know, yeah, there was, there was really nothing there that you could, he just, he was just a very sort of evil character. And he was always evil. Ming, again, is an interesting one, because we've seen him in from so many perspectives of different characters, and he has constantly made decisions that just horrible, you know, and

evil and cruel. And so, but with other characters, they have made some very bad decisions, but at the same time, if you make a terrible decision for a good reason, what does that make you? And I find that a really interesting question, and I think probably Nikita is the best example of, of this question. Because she's done some terrible things. And no doubt about it. But at the same time, she was protecting her child, and she has managed to bring their child up to

adulthood. And that child has become like this a trigger for a change in the the entire structure of, you know, society. And so it's, she's, that's, that makes him more complicated. Um, as opposed to someone who does things, for the cruelty of it, as is, for example, Santano Enrique did. And so yeah, it's hard to explain, I guess it is instinct for me as a writer, some characters surprise me. And, and that's another thing, there are always characters who

are surprising. And I really enjoy writing those characters, because they're not easy. They're in any way because I still grapple with who is Nikita, you know, she, she continues to show new facets of herself. And as a character, she is so contained, and so used to shielding herself and protecting herself, that it's actually difficult to get to know her. So we only see glimpses of her, and each glimpse shows something different about her. But of course, it can work in the other

direction, too. And that you think someone is, is maybe a good person, and then layer by layer, like, I'm not so sure about this person anymore, because they're hiding things. And so yeah, it's just for me, it's not so much a decision I like is it is that I'm writing and I get into the character and I realized, okay, this person is maybe not black and black or

white. This person is morally gray, and they could Go in either direction, and then I just have to keep on writing to figure out where they're going to end up. Yeah, I think that infuses the storylines, too, with a lot of kind of energy and suspense. Because I think, as an example, early on, you know, Anthony, who we find out relatively early on

is not all he appears to be. But it was an exciting moment to realize that, you know, and I think it's the third book that No, no, he, he really, you know, don't don't lump him in necessarily with the other kind of powerful Psy you've met so far. He's kind of playing all sides of the fence. So I think as a reader, too, it creates a lot of Verve to not totally have the characters pinned down into one little box. Yeah, absolutely. I think I like reading those kinds of

characters. And as a writer, I enjoy writing them as well. And I think particularly because you see this a lot in the older generation of sight. And, and I think it's natural to see that in that generation, because they've lived in a completely different time, in a completely different society. And so it's shaped them in different ways. And some of them have gone one way, some of them have gone

another way. Some of them have chosen to protect their children, and some of them have chosen to abandon their children. And so it's, it's all this, you know, there's so much complexity there to explore. And, yeah, that's part of why I love writing in this world, because there is so much to explore. There is so much to find out. So yeah. I love it. Yeah. Same. I mean, I actually this transitions nicely, because I have I have a whole laundry list of themes that I want to get

your perspective on. But one thing I was reflecting on was how I people ask me for Readalike titles for the series all the time, cuz everybody knows I love this series, they get hooked on it, and they're like, Okay, what do I read next? I'm like, I the closest thing out, you know, I obviously go to Guild Hunter, if you like this

one. But besides that, the closest thing that I've been able to recommend is the In Death series, because there is this really fascinating blend in this series of political thriller, and the paranormal romance and like the number of iterations and kind of areas you have to explore within the world you set up, it seems kind of endless, like I don't see a natural conclusion really, to the series.

Yeah, this this series, I think, there there is so much room for growth in it, because it is the development of a world alongside you know, the the romantic relationships. And that's, I'm fascinated that you chose In Death because that is one of my all time favorite series of forevermore. Same. But yeah, I think it is. So I started writing this series, because I couldn't find exactly what I wanted to read. And I think, from my perspective, another one I would recommend

that I really, really love. It's completely different. But again, it has that same balance of world building, and then it's got the romances. So it's actually published under, you know, by Baern, and which is a science fiction imprint. But there are a number of romances within the the series, which is the Liaden books by Sharon Lee and Steve Miller. And some of those books or adventures, some of those books, full on

romances. And, but what makes me recommend them is that they have that cohesion of family, relationships, and this complex world. And I think I love it in the same way. I love the JD Robb books because I like to see not just character growth. That's really important. I want to see character growth, but I also want to see world growth. You know, I want to see new facets of the world. And I feel like I see that in both of these books. Obviously the JD Robb books are

like mystery suspense. So we get to see it from that perspective, we get to see you know, different parts of the world she explores in each case. Whereas with the Liaden books, we get to see you know, science fiction so you get to see the actual world building and the politics going on in the world. So yeah, that's another one I would recommend. I agree with your JD Robb, of course, because I'm completely a fan girl of that series.

Yeah, no, well, I definitely I made a little Typing note here to myself that I need to look at that series for sure. Yeah, in depth I have actually been, I was gonna ask you was that a conscious influence? Because I really see a lot of parallels in this reread, particularly in slave to sensation, it seems quite similar in a lot of its kind of structure to naked in death. And I see a lot of parallels between Lucas and Sasha and even work.

No, I wouldn't say so. Because I I'm trying to remember when I first read the series, and first read naked of death, and it was like, years and years and years before I wrote safety sensation. So if there is any Echo, I think it would be very unconscious. Yeah, I'm not sure I see the similarity, but then I see it from a totally different perspective than a reader. You know, so, for me, I they live so vividly in my head, and completely different characters,

even in their personalities. You know, Sasha is so much softer, then Eve in Yeah, for sure. When you see her, and, and the world obviously, is structured differently. But again, I see it from the writing side, and you're seeing it as a reader. So I have no idea. But yeah, no, it wasn't conscious at all. But I'm glad to be mentioned in the same breath, as you know, my hero. So, so good.

Yeah, no, I mostly I see it in the sense of Sasha kind of having this intrinsic trauma that's really shaped who she is. And then she's meeting this guy who she has sort of an intrinsically antagonistic relationship, in this case, obviously, because it's Psy versus changeling, rather than an in depth Eva's this cop. And she's, you know, getting ensnared with this kind of rakish reformed criminals of the kind of push pull there. I don't know, maybe it's because I just,

I also love In Death. And I just see it everywhere. But I felt like, I felt like there could be some echoes there. I guess I'll just transition, excuse me into just peppering you here with some other things that we've

been talking about. So, silence in terms of I'm curious to hear your thoughts about if you have a direct metaphor in mind for silence, because as we've been going through each book, and kind of thinking about what kind of parallels to the real world or what it could have metaphorical resonance with, like, some of the ones we've we've talked about our, you know, totalitarianism, or potentially a metaphor for the nefarious side of the internet, or, or kind of media writ large,

emotionally abusive families, fundamentalist religion, elite corporations. So I mean, I just feel I mean, to me, that's a sign that it has a level of metaphorical richness to it, that the reader can kind of read in what they want. But for you, when you were creating the concept of silence, did you have a specific kind of parallel to the real world you had in mind? Or did it just kind of flow out of the nature of the Psy of themselves?

Yeah, when I write, because I write so instinctively, I tend not to think like that, I tend just to be obsessed with the story. And, and so even now, I like to leave it up to the reader. years back, I read a quote, and it said, Every reader reads a different book. You know, when they read the same book, and I think that's really beautiful. And I actually think, as a writer, I shouldn't be making those. What should I say? What's the like, in terms of themes, or metaphors and things

like that? I shouldn't be the one. Making decisions on that or saying what I, what I see necessarily, because I think when an author says that it quite often can stop debate and discussion, because people start to think, well, that must be the right way. And, of course, it's not because I wrote the book.

And my words are out there. And then it's up to the reader to see what they you know, to read it according to their own thoughts and to see what they see in it and then have those discussions with other readers. So even if I did have something I probably wouldn't say. But I love that. Yeah, I think it's there's a point at which I think authorial intervention should stop. Like, it's, it's different from a reader asking me if another character is going to

have a story. I mean, that's, that's, I would happily answer that. But if someone's asking me about more in terms of what's the word I'm looking for? I'm having this brain freeze. It's like, like the authorial intent.

Yeah, like, if you're talking about authorial intent, or what is the, you know, what are the thematic things and things like that things that go beyond the basic, you know, the story, or like the factual story elements, either further I get into my career, the more I realized that, I need to step back from that, and let readers have that discussion among themselves. Because that's a really joyful

space. Because obviously, I am a reader, and I love talking about what's done stuff means and books, you know, that I'm a fan of, and I love that open space to discuss where nobody has said, No, this is the right thing. This is what you should be feeling or thinking. And so I want to leave that open space for my readers as well. No, I really love that I, you know, there's especially I don't know if it's because of

quarantine or whatever. But authors have been really kind of getting into it, especially on Twitter, in the last year. So I think that there's actually a lot of just both for your, you know, kind of respecting the joy of the reader to read in what they want, but also just for your own sanity, kind of giving space for people to do what they do read into it what they want. And I think, for me, as a writer, I also like, so I've

written a book. And by the time it hits the bookstore, or the E reader, I'm usually it's usually been at least six or more months. And I'm already in the space of another book. And so my head is in a different place. And so I can listen to those discussions, but I do have enough distance to it that I don't need to get involved. You know, it's like, okay, I've written this book, and I've put it out into the world. And now, I suppose it's my gift to

readers now. Just you know, and they can read it as they wish. Sure. Yeah. If that makes sense. No, it totally does. And, you know, I think this is the kind of series that has it invites a lot of speculation both from us sort of like who What do you think is going to happen, but also, especially now that I'm reading them kind of in close succession with an eye towards it? You know, I think there's enough going on in the text that there's a lot to kind of think

through and play with. And yeah, like you're saying, I think different people will come to kind of different things that resonate with them like this. This time in my reread. I'm really noticing how many complicated sibling relationships there are. Specifically sisters. It seems like there's a lot of difficult sisters. I mean, I guess a Mara being kind of the chief among them. But um, you know, I totally didn't even pick up on

that the first time. But now I've kind of got my eye out constantly of like, Okay, if you got a troubled sister, maybe that's going to come back up at some point. That's, it's actually fascinating that I hadn't actually thought about that myself, which is what I mean, when I say that, I write and then readers Tell me fix it. I'm like, I had no idea that the knowingness of the text. Yeah, apparently, you know, at least in these early books, you were you were working something

out about that sisters. Well, one other thing that we've been talking a lot about, just in kind of, so these books have aged really, really well, I guess that's kind of the first statement. genre fiction often doesn't really age that, well. It's not meant to it's meant to be sort of responding to its cultural moment, etc. But, you know, we're 15, I guess, years on, and I think these early books, honestly, read pretty much like they could have been

written today. One of the reasons I think, is because these are intensely interracial books, in terms of the characters are diverse characters, which I don't know was all that common, kind of when you first started writing. I just I wonder, it seems like that's a real value to you, at least in this series. And I just wondered if you kind of had any thoughts about how the diversity of what we in the real world world would consider race in the

book. How that may be bumped up against the kind of, quote unquote, interracial nature of Psy versus changeling versus human? Yeah. So first of all, I'm I'm, you know, I'm really happy that the books have, you know, aged well. And I think part of it is, of course, that they're set in an alternate world. And I think often speculative fiction, ages better, then, perhaps contemporary fiction, because contemporary by its nature is in

a moment in time. Whereas speculative fiction Can, can take place often in any moment in time, and the themes will resonate. But I remember, after I wrote slave to sensation, I got emails from readers saying, how happy they were to see, you know, representation in the book. And until that moment, I actually hadn't realized what I had done. And I think it comes from who I am, as a person. And where I've grown up, I've grown up, you know, in very diverse cities. And it just was natural

for me to write. Write the kind of diversity, you know, I see in the world. And, and then, you know, I did later on, you know, once the emails and things started coming, I became more conscious of it. But at the same time, it is still a natural instinct to write that way. And it was a conscious decision on my part to use the word race, in terms of the Psy and the changelings and the humans, as opposed to using species.

Because I think the word race makes it clear how similar we all are in Utah, we have these artificial divides that that we put between people. And, and I think seeing that in a fantasy or paranormal context, sort of, kind of makes it easy to see, and process herps. But again, a lot of what I do is very instinctive. So sometimes I think of this stuff afterwards.

But I do remember choosing that one word, because I wanted to make it clear that these were not like, different species of people, these were the same species of people. And different aspects of it, you know, and, and so there's the, the hash of the series has always been diverse. And it always will be because that's, it just feels right. For the world, it feels

right for me, as a writer. And yeah, and I keep hoping that it isn't always an unusual series in terms of diversity, I hope, you know, that we get more series that are just naturally diverse, where it's not a point, you know, it's just, it just is.

And that's one of the things I'm really proud of what the series, which is the diversity is simply woven into the fabric of the series, the you know, my read is just nobody blinks at it, who the characters are or where they come from, and, you know, it's Everyone knows that it could be, they could come from anywhere in the world, you know, and they could be of any hip necessity as we think of it and, and it's

fine. And it, you know, it's, I think, I hope that people see the success of this series and realize that you can write, you know, really diverse works and, and, you know, readers are so generous and, and with their hearts and they'll they'll take all these characters into their

hat. So I hope if there's a you know, there's younger writers or newer writers sort of hesitating with diversity, I would say don't you know, just go with it and you'll find your readers Yeah, well, yeah, I I often find myself getting misty eyed in these books where I when I reflect on you know, like, for instance, the Omega protocol that comes up in Hostage to Pleasure and this idea of Okay, you can try to unleash this just on the Psy but like, it's not going to be limited to just this

I like the humans everyone will get it it's we have for our however different these characters might be. They really do have a shared destiny. And I think that's kind of driven home again and again, that you can't just, it can't be one of these races over the other that they all are in it together. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, well, before I get too emotional, I

will warn people. If you have not caught up with the series yet, I'm going to ask a couple of questions about Last Guard, because I loved it. And, you know, I know it's the new one coming out. So if you're not caught up with the series, and you don't want to hear any, with a spoiler, now is the time to depart, I'll put a I'll put some timestamps in as well. But Last Guard, Oh, okay. I'm so excited that we have to sign again, because those are my favorite. And I'm just a sucker for that.

So Oh, gosh, I don't even know where to start. So anchors, anchors come up, like in the first couple of books, and now we finally are getting the full kind of story on how they fit into the world. What what made this the right time to start kind of exploring anchors in their function in the sign at? Well, so again, you know, another spoiler warning. So if you haven't caught up, so it has to do, it's obviously based on what's happened to the sign it to this point, the sign it is at

a critical juncture. And you can't talk about the signage without talking about the anchors, and especially at this critical point in time, it's like speaking about a house without speaking about the foundations, you know, it It can't, without the foundations, the house will collapse. And so that's what the anchors are, they are the foundations of the

Senate. And so it was time they came out of, you know, the shadows, it was time, we learned who these people are always in the background, as you say they've existed since book one. So they've always been there. And just like, you know, I think that I say this, you know, in the book, which is that just like we take the foundations of a house for granted, we take anchors for granted, because they're just always there. And so this was the right time because with the sign it in the

state, it is in. No other designation in the Psy is as close to the problems as the Anchors. Yeah. And I mean, I think, you know, it's not that it's not been brought home in the last few books, but this was really the book that made me you, you find a way to do this, because I know it's a romance. So I know, everything's gonna work out okay. In the end, like, I know that my head, but um, yeah, the sign that feels like it's in real, you know, dire straits.

And this for some reason, this book, it just really was dropped, like kind of really drilled home of No, no, like, we've got to figure out a solution here. Because, you know, things are really hitting the fan. Yeah, I think I'm trying to say thanks without spoiling. But, yeah, I'll just agree with what you say. Yes. Basically, shake its role in this book. So strap in if you as you're as you're preparing to read this one. Do you so we do get a new setting in this book?

So do you foresee as spending more time kind of around Delhi or with the Rao organization as it as the books move forward? Or? I think we'll definitely, you know, see Payal again, because she is so important. She... in terms of what her position ends up being in this book. But in terms of locations, it's always open. We're moving around a lot in the series at the moment. And I honestly, I have no idea where

else we're going to end up. But I think we're going to be back in Moscow, again, because so many people are based in Moscow. And yeah, and I think we will go back to, again, try not to spoil, go back to Delhi, just because of the connections that ended up being made in this book. You know, it's all linked by people. And so where there are people that are integral to the storyline, of course, we're

going to end up there again. So yeah, so watch this space, in terms of where we're going to go next. Yeah, no, I've really enjoyed that about the second season, so to speak, that we're kind of getting outside of California more and more and kind of seeing a bigger picture of what's going on, which I mean, we definitely got that in the past, but it feels like that's been a conscious choice to sort of mix up locales a lot more in this this season.

Yeah, it just happened. Really Naturally in terms of where the storyline was going, because it was like, okay, who's where. And it makes sense that in a world like this, you know, where there's these big political cultural shifts happening, that it's not going to be limited to one area, there's going to be people scattered all over the place that are playing big roles in what's happening. And so it's been really fun to go and

explore. And actually, a lot of them have been mentioned in the first stock of the series, for example, the bears, I can't remember which book they were first mentioned in, but I know there were mentioned more than once and the first you know, first stock of the series. And so we've always known these people existed. Payal as well was also mentioned, I want to say it was Shield of Winter, but I'll keep my eyes open when we

get shots of hope. Yeah. So the the, they're not coming out of nowhere, you know, that the world has been created in a way that is global. And so now I get to sort of explore a bit more in depth into all of these places that we've caught glimpses off. Yeah, yeah, actually, I just finished my Branded by Fire reread. And that was the first name check of Selenka. And then the first mention of the bears

that at least that I noticed. So yeah, they've been, they've been kicking around for quite some time before they finally get to shine. Yeah. Do you think that we're gonna get anything else from the Mercants? In the next few books, because they seem like such a very, they almost feel like a changeling pack kind of in their dynamic. But yeah, I obviously say. Yeah, they're I love the

Mercants. They're just, they're fascinating. And I think, yes, they will be back because they are, they are very important to everything that's happening. And in terms of if you think about who is connected? Who is connected to their family? And yeah, and I think I won't say much more than that. Because it's, it's, you know, part of the story of Last Guard is that

whole Mercant family thing. So, yeah, they're, they're actually one of the core, you know, the core anchors of the series, just like Dark river and Snow dancer and the certain elements of the story, whether they're, they're present in every book or not. They're still out there. And they're still playing a very big role in everything that's happening in the world. So there will be flowing in and out.

Yeah, they they really. They feel to me very much like the changeling packs at this point, just because we're, you know, we meet new ones, obviously, but just the level of loyalty that they have and sort of the rider die. They are for their family. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. They feel it feels very cozy, which is a weird thing to say about a group of Psy, but very cozy coming back to them. Yeah, well, and I guess my last just squee moment is Kaleb, I loved him in this book. You were a lover of

Kaleb, like I am. I was early on, I was thinking like, Oh, this actually reminds me a lot of Kaleb story. And then did you know pretty early on, he was gonna have, you know, a role to play in this particular story. I'm trying to remember when I was writing how it happened. And I think when he appeared, I just was Oh, of course, he's gonna appear. Of course, it's just perfect. He's going to appear

here. So I'm not sure I knew necessarily early on, but I knew he would be present in the book, just in terms of the storyline. Obviously, he wouldn't be present in terms of who he is in the ruling coalition. But there's a particular scene that I think you're probably thinking of, and I'm thinking of it, that was a bit of a surprise. But then it felt so good when I wrote it, and I felt and it felt so real. And, and I felt like we

saw another part of him. And yeah, that that felt like yes, of course, this needs to happen. And yeah, hope readers feel that way too. Yeah, it felt really satisfying. And it just it reminded me I mean, we think of Kaleb is sort of the big, I guess in theory, he's the most powerful person really in the world, but it's just such a reminder that actually the most powerful person in the world is Sahara. She's calling the shots and, and everything having to do with Kaleb.

And I actually love some of his mental asides about Like Sahara and how, she's, you know, making him you know, like, sort of. Because of her, he's making certain decisions. And it's, I find it quite amusing that he's conscious of it. But at the same time, you know, the whole thing with Kaleb, but she's very conscious who he is. And he's conscious of the influence Sahara is on him. And, and I find that a really interesting dynamic, because he is so very

powerful. And yet, he has handed her sort of control over his power. And so yeah, I just their dynamic is just fascinating. And I'm glad we got to check in on them in this book and see a bit more of them. And, and I, I think we're definitely going to be seeing more of them in the future, too. Because there, again, with writing a series, one of the best things is that I get to explore characters beyond their book. So we got to see

their growth. And I think they're one of the couples where you see so much growth as from book to book to book. Yeah. Well, and you, you know, I think, for me, they're one of those couples where their happily ever after was so hard one, that it's very satisfying to see them actually getting to live it and to grow in it. Yeah, some of the other couples. I mean, obviously, they all have their struggles, but it's like, Oh, God, they really went through it. They deserve to be happy.

Yeah, I mean, they were like, separated, and, you know, the whole sort of imprisonment. And it's just yeah, you know, raised by a serial killer. So I think there's a lot. Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there, that they they deserve, you know, you know, to check in on them. Yeah, yeah. Well, um, I've been chatting your ear off here for quite some time. So we'll start to wrap this up. But uh,

obviously, Last Guard comes out this July. But anything else you want folks to know about? What's going on with you and, and your writing? I'm actually currently sort of noodling away at my next contemporary. So. And this is Danny who is the last Bishop Asera brother. Yes, left. So I know, readers have been waiting for that. And I didn't kind of want to talk about it until I was a bit into it. Because I just wanted to make sure you know that it was there was a possibility of this possibly

coming out this year. So I'm quite a way into the first draft now. So there is a vague possibility of it coming out possibly sometime this year. But or if it doesn't, it would be I think, early on, in the next year. And, and then of course, Archangel's light coming out. October. And, yeah, so and then. And then yeah, probably the best way to keep in touch with me is join my newsletter, I am pretty regular about sending that out once a month. And I tend to have the most breaking updates in

there. And yeah, at the moment, that's what I'm working on. And then after I finished that I will be working on the next search engine book. But I'm still in the thinking phase of that. So I can't give you any kind of spoiler for that. I like to have like, quite a few months where just let the characters do what they will inside my head. And then I get to a point where I'm like, oh, okay, I, I have the idea for the story. And I

start writing. And yeah, so probably in a few months, I'll be talking about that. Nice. Well, I mean, I feel selfish being like, Oh, I want a Psy changeling book. I'd like another contemporary. If you can get another thriller. That'd be great. So we're, I guess we're just lucky that you, you're able to keep up we're pretty aggressive writing schedule. So we're, we're just blessed with that. But it must be tiring. So we appreciate your work. No, I

enjoyed I love writing. And yeah, I just like to pace myself to what is works for me because I think I'm very particular about the books that come out. So for example, with the search engine series, I will often spend a couple of weeks checking the continuity, because it's really important and that's one of the strong strongest things about the series is the continuity so that if you do read the books back to back to back, the threads should all

line up. And then but that means you know I have to have any To make sure I spend that time and, and I do. And so I always make sure whatever my writing schedule, it's structured in a way where I don't feel like rushed, so that I feel like threads are hanging and having checked the continuity, because that would just horrify me. I'd have a book out there like that. So, yeah, it's really important to have that space to first of

all, think about the story. And then also to have that space to tie up all those, you know, small, it sounds like small points when I when I checked them, you know, like, I'm checking a timeline, I'm checking someone's clothing, you know, simple things like that. But they add up to a bigger hole in a book, because they add to the depth of the story, and they add to the depth of the overall series. They definitely do, I guess, speaking as somebody who's like doing a deep reading of them

right now. I definitely appreciate those details being there. And it's, yeah, I do also think that contributes to the binge ability of the series as a whole is that it feels You know, it really feels like it gets momentum and just everything is slotting into place as you're clicking along. So it's like, well, I can't I can't stop now. It's all it's all just rolling along. And I have to just hold on for the ride. So I think that attention to detail is very,

very much appreciated. Oh, that's music to my ears- binge away. Well, thank you so much for chatting with me and for writing this wonderful series. I know, it's it's been a great comfort to me and many others. So yeah, just appreciate you putting it out into the world. Thank you. And thank you for you know, doing a podcast about the books and doing a read along and chatting about it. It's the best thing for a writer is word of

mouth from readers. So I have to say thank you to you in every reader who has gone out there and spoken about the books and told friends about it. And yeah, I hope you continue to fall in love with the books and continue to enjoy this world and the characters. Yeah, well, you heard your heard her guys get out there and spread the Good News of the the Church of the Psy-changeling. We need more members. So well, thank you so much. Nalini! Thank

you. Ah, what a joy guys. I went into that interview a huge fan. I come out of it an even bigger fan. Nalini Singh was just an absolute joy to to chat with. So I appreciate her making the time. So thank you to her. Also, thank you to Erin at Berkeley books for setting everything up. I really appreciate it. And I hope you guys really enjoyed getting to have a specific kind of more detailed chat about kind of how the series has come

together. I was particularly interested to hear her thoughts sort of about authorial intent. And I'm definitely going to keep that kind of in mind going forward. That apparently, she's cool for us to draw what connections we will so I'm going to feel licensed to do that as we go along. But also after we stopped recording, I shared with her an idea I have of a fun bonus episode for you guys. And she was very supportive of that. So I'm going to start I'm going to start working on that for

when we get to book 12. I'm going to I'm going to release that as a bonus episode. I hope you guys enjoyed the potential wrestling in the background of my cats, getting into a stack of papers and chewing them up the stack. Just keep in mind this stack of papers has literally been sitting there for I don't know three weeks and as soon as I'm having like a podcast recording, of course Hastings finds it and starts chewing it. So I had to try to jump over and

get him to stop doing that. So if you heard any wrestling in the background, that is what it was. Enjoy. Enjoy that little audio. So once again big thank you to Nalini Singh and I hope you guys enjoyed this bonus episode of Changeling Cast. If you did, please take a minute to rate and review. Share it with your friends who also enjoy paranormal series and particularly Psy changeling series. And if you're interested in following me, I am at "bookslikewhoa" everywhere.

YouTube, Instagram, Twitter, Goodreads, all the things you can find me at books like whoa. And yeah, that is it for this week's bonus episode. We will be back next week with I believe the seventh book is Blaze of Memory. So strap in for that. And I hope you guys are having a lovely day. I will talk to you soon. Bye!