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Hello and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. My name is Hannah Munro, your host, and today with me I have Louisa Weinstein to talk about conflict resolution. So Louisa's got a wonderful resume. So she is the founder of the Conflict Resolution Centre.
She has written a book called The Seven Principles of Conflict Resolution, and she is also the conflict resolution expert for Across the Red Line on Radio 4. So that is a wonderful resume, Louisa. Thank you for joining us today.
Thank you.
So tell us a little bit about you know your story and where you came from and I'm really interested to know a bit more about your show Across the Red Line.
Okay so I started off in corporate law, I started off as a corporate lawyer partly because I was I had the idea that you know that was that was the thing that one must do and so I I went into law, went into corporate law and worked very hard. It wasn't a great fit for me.
Although I loved making deals, it wasn't building documents in the way that you need to. It was not something that made me really, really happy. But what was really interesting in that experience is that When you put in a document, when I put in a document to my partner, the partner would go through it. They put red lines all the way through it.
They'd tell me all the things that I'd got wrong. They'd hand it back to me. I'd say, thank you very much. And I'd do that with my trainees. And that was the way of working.
And when I then went into business with a client of mine, developing what now would be apps around organizational development, When I would tell people how badly they'd done and how they needed to improve and how it needed to be perfected in this way and expected them to come back and say, thank you very much for your valuable input, I was instead faced with
animosity, irritation, undermining. And I couldn't really understand it until my sister pointed me to neighborhood mediation. She said, why don't you become a volunteer neighborhood mediator, trained to do that? And maybe you'll pick up some skills. I think she'd got the measure of me.
So I went into neighborhood mediation and I trained, I had the privilege, the great privilege to train as a community mediator in Camden. And it completely put all the things I had, all the way, the approaches that I had had to being an advisor on its head. Moving from telling people what to do to enabling people to make decisions.
And these were really big decisions. These were neighbors living on top of each other in council estates in very close environments where, you know, if things go wrong, they can get really, really nasty. And I saw actually all those years ago, about over 15 years ago, how the dynamics in the neighbourhood were very similar to the dynamics in a workplace.
How when we... brush up against each other and we don't know how to deal with it we really create some serious problems that really affect us deeply and viscerally because this is our you know livelihoods our homes our our our essence that are affected and so I completely fell in love with mediation at a time when people thought that it was meditation unfortunately
um so no one had a clue building building and now obviously people do much more but also building an understanding of so I trained as a civil and commercial mediator and a workplace mediator but I also looked at the dynamics of conflict quite closely and how actually it doesn't take mediation or a mediator to pre-empt and deal with the with conflicts and that
conflict provides the most amazing opportunity for growth and change and I think particularly during Covid when in fact we're so used to now change we're adapting to change quite quickly many of us or or feeling we need to so so that's really the potted history i built the the conflict resolution center and then across the red line i was very uh privileged to be
invited to come as a as one of the conflict resolution experts on across the red line and what we do there is uh take people from across different sides of the political debate to discuss things in a very different way. And the results have been very, very interesting. We're starting that again in October.
That sounds incredibly interesting because I think politics is one of those things, isn't it? There's always, you know, you're one side or the other. There's very little, I would say, constructive debate around it and everyone seems to pick a side and then not move.
So what are the sort of challenges that you've faced with taking two people with very different opinions and actually getting them to an agreement? Have you managed it as part of the show?
yeah i mean i think the the outcome is not for me to want them to come to an agreement because i need to not invest in that agreement as the mediator or the person on the outside the more you invest the less the parties involved are invested in in finding an agreement and also agreement isn't always the the goal agreement is not always that the right answer
So one of the challenges is that, and I found this a lot in legal services as well, you have to be right. You're paid to be right. So you build everything on the basis that I'm right and you're wrong. So you take that positional argument. But in fact, agreements are not reached on positions.
Agreements are reached on the basis of common interests and common needs of finding where are the commonalities of our interests and our needs? Where do we need to build agreements? where can we find some synergies instead of And that's, as I said, never going to be in pointing out how wrong you are.
And it is interesting how people complain so much about the toxic political debate. But it's a very, very difficult line to manage because you've got to be right. But to negotiate an argument, you've got to be willing to let go. And you do that through questions.
I mean, in Across the Red Line, we really just help them to use a lot of questions and to listen And really, that's the basis of every single resolution, of every single agreement. It seems so simple, questions, open questions and listening, but it can get a bit complicated. It can get tricky.
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And I guess, especially at the moment, there's a lot of conflict within workplaces as businesses transition to remote working or back into the office, as the case may be. And I know that's a challenge for a lot of our listeners and, you know, finance teams, you know, that they struggle. They can work from home, but sometimes it's not the best way to work.
So talk to us a little bit about how we can approach conflict, you know, whether it's small conflicts or big conflicts and what the key things we need to think about.
Well, I think we need to start from the basis, the context in which we're operating, which is that people have experienced a huge amount of fear and continue to experience fear. Uncertainty creates fear and that lack of solidity, particularly if you're in a profession where things are generally stable, things are generally known.
If you look at the numbers or if you look at the coding or whatever it is you know there are some there are some knowns and in this environment there are constant unknowns you know a couple of weeks ago people were preparing to come back to the office now we're not so that creates fear anxiety um and and lots of experiences and and and feelings that people
aren't necessarily used to dealing with. And it has had a visceral impact on people emotionally. We all know people have gone through loss. They've gone through fear of financial insecurity. They've gone through actual financial change.
So you have to see that as a context and ensure that any conversation that you're having with someone is starting from that humanistic point of view. the second part of the question you'll have to remind
me that's all right no because it was a long question so i actually i want to dig down into what you said today so you talked about um having you know having that initial conversation and starting from the fact so is it an acknowledgement of the fact that they're going through all of these things how does how do you address it and how you know how do you
maintain empathy without necessarily moving away from your goal
well you've got to be careful um Some people don't want to talk about how they're feeling. And that's fair enough. What you need to get underneath is you need to ask the question. So assume nothing. So how are you? How are things going? Now, someone might just say fine. Someone you might see there's more to it.
And you need to really explain that you really do want to know how things have been going for them. And acknowledge and understand that they might not want to respect that This is not necessarily a conversation that everyone wants to have or needs to have. Then you need to focus on the nuts and bolts of what needs to happen and of your agenda.
You need to be very clear on what your agenda is, what you'd like to happen is, what you'd like to happen is, how you'd like to see things. But I'd suggest that before you enter into that conversation, you also have a good think about what you assume the other person's position to be, where you think the other person is, and then check that position.
because we never know where another person is, what another person's thinking, what changes another person's been through. Be able to have that open conversation, but then you're going to need to set those, you know, there are limits, aren't there? We can't give employees everything. There may be some things we can negotiate. There may be things that we can't.
And what's tricky when you start asking people how they are and what they want is that at some point you might have to say, First of all, I can't hear how you are anymore. That's the end of the conversation. We've run out of time. And, you know, I can't give you what you want.
That's why people don't ask other people what they want, because we're often so scared of not being able to give it to them, particularly, again, if we come from a background where we are fixers, where we fix things, we have solutions. And in this environment, sometimes we are not going to have solutions. So you need to prepare your negotiating starts.
You need to be very, very clear about that and where the where the wiggle room is on that and again that might be unclear because it might be it might be it might be there might be softer you know it's not just a fact or a target it's a you know how we're going to work from home and how do I ensure that you know you show up and you deliver and you
know questions like well if you deliver but you don't do your hours You know, what are my expectations? What are your expectations? All those challenging conversations. I need to be clear about what I want, where my wiggle room is, and then I need to listen to where the other person is.
And then I might need to go away and reflect on it, on what that negotiation is. It needs to be slowed down in order that we don't waste time, actually.
yeah because that's always the those kind of questions are really tricky isn't it because they imply a lack of trust and that's the last thing that you want your your team to think that you have a lack of trust in them but sometimes you have to question and make sure that you know you're all on the same page so you know is it just that you have to ask
those difficult questions and that's just part of the you know the the resolution process or yeah how how do you get over that sort of that fear of asking that question in the first place.
Well, I think you need to be prepared to listen to the answer and really ground that answer and your understanding of it. Because as you say, the response might come back a little bit guarded. And from that, you might sense that they are picking up that you don't trust them. And maybe you don't fully trust them.
So maybe we do have to have a conversation about how we build that trust and make sure, you know, the targets are there. But also, you know, is it really necessary for them to work all those hours or can they actually deliver faster if they're working remotely? We don't know. We need to have those discussions and they need to be grown up discussions.
And the thing is that everyone needs to be equipped to have those discussions. And that's a bigger issue.
Absolutely, because it happens at all different levels. And conflict's not just about whether somebody works from home. It's not just about their performance. It can also be their feelings about a transformation or an implementation of a new project, a new software. So that is something that we see a lot is resistance to change generally.
And it's not just for change's sake. You can obviously see there's an underlying fear. So how would you approach that situation? um is you know either subtly or overtly resisting um the an implementation or is not quite playing their part should we say how would you approach that
there are lots of parts to that because they may have already told you why they're resisting and that that conversation so you need to look at that conversation that's already possibly been had and that maybe I don't know you you've said well yes you may disagree but we have to go with it anyway so it's possible that that conversation needs to be kind of
resurrected a bit and had in a different kind of way because people are often not necessarily upset about the fact that you're not going with what they're saying it's often the way that that that was taken on board and and also okay so you think that we're doing it in the wrong way i really get that but we've decided to do it in this way so what are we
going to do about that you effectively need to coach the other person through their resentments towards you and not be afraid of that you know i see that you're really upset with me about that um And also you need to manage your feelings around that because you are going to have a lot of feelings around or some feelings around that, some responses to that.
You may have some intellectual arguments that means that they're wrong around that. You need to go away and work all those out, not so that you can have the argument with them, but so that you're clear on where you are.
know i really hear that you think it's wrong and that it's frustrating you and you don't want to engage with it where i am in this scenario is that we're doing it because x y and z now i understand you don't feel you can come with us on that so i'm wondering what you think we're going to do about that because it's really important for me right now that
we work as a team or whatever it is so you know how do we how do we stay on board with that now that might you've got to be careful with that because that might feel like, right, so if you don't come with me, do you want to stay or do you want to go? But, you know, you don't want to be saying that, obviously. But there is something in that.
You know, you've chosen to work here. You've chosen to work with me.
you don't agree with the direction so what you know what does that mean does that mean that you don't want to work with me anymore or or does it mean that we have to find a way through and that kind of challenge point is a really good point because it hits the reality of of where we actually are instead of kind of skirting around it.
Having said that, you really need to be confident in your skills to have those conversations. And they need to be very much about supporting that other person and staying where they are, being with them. So they might say, I don't think it's right. I don't think it's the right direction. So, okay, so what do you think is the right direction? Well, I don't know.
Okay, so what do you want to do with that? Do you want to go away and think about it and come back to me? But don't run away from it. They think it's the wrong direction. Okay. Now,
what do we do? That's a really interesting point that you said there about almost offering, making them realise they have a choice to be there. And I find that fascinating, isn't it? Because they do have a choice. They might not like the choice they're being given. But at the end of the day, the business needs to do what the business needs to do.
And by saying to them, well, you're choosing to be here. You've chosen to work for this business. This business has made the decision around this. And how do we make this work as a way forwards?
so that's I never even thought of it like that it's a it is a very sensitive rupture point but what it can do have done well is it creates an opportunity for someone to rethink actually and recommit to to where they are and also to accept sometimes we have to accept that our careers aren't you know, perfect today.
You know, the business and my career and my work isn't going in the direction that I want it to today. Now that doesn't mean that I have to leave the business, but it does mean I really need to rethink about what my priorities are personally within my job. So in a way, take my job as a, you know, as if I'm a business within the business and then
see what I want to do with it. And that's fascinating. And obviously, at the moment, everything is shifting towards a remote model. So does the principles of conflict and how you manage it, is there any differences to doing it remotely versus in person?
Yes, there are definitely differences. And it's really interesting because dealing with conflict situations, if I'm working with you and we have a conflict situation and I'm hoping to help manage you through it and I'm hoping also that you might be helping me to manage me through it as well. That's the ideal scenario.
But just for starters, I'm helping you to manage through that conflict situation. So engaging you remotely is more difficult. So, for example, much easier to avoid the situation.
professional services there was a lot of avoidance it's easier you just get on with the work and don't have to talk to the person so actually getting the person engaged in having a conversation um is quite tricky so you need to kind of prod them you need to understand their response to conflict which to be honest will take another half an hour to talk about i'm
not going to go into that right now um But also picking up signals and signs of where the person is, can be a little bit more tricky. We can't read body language, we don't get a sense on one level.
But then I think on another level, people have found that actually sitting with people and talking to them in their homes has increased level of intimacy even if you just see you know a member of my family come across the scene it makes you more aware of my humanity and also of the things that I might have to deal with so in a way that increases the ability
to have a more relaxed conversation a more human conversation so but there are lots of you know there are lots of games that we play in know avoiding interactions in you know masking our um challenges um so yeah we need to we need to balance both but i think i think there is an opportunity in um they say that intimacy is into me see and you know you're
looking and not that any you know not that anyone necessarily in a very professional environment wants to be too intimate but if you look at it on that level into me see you're seeing into me into my life you know I can start to work with you as a person even though I can't necessarily pick up everything the other thing is that I might have a conversation
with you and then afterwards think I'm not sure that came across right. I'm not sure that landed right. And then think, you know, don't email straight away saying, well, that conversation we just had, I'm not sure that we said it right or did it right.
Think about it, ruminate on it and what, you know, whether it worked or not and what you want to do about that and then maybe collate a few others and then come back to the other person. I think the other thing is regular check-ins and the way we do that does need to change when we're working remotely.
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And what do you mean by that? How does it need to change?
So I work to a format, a weekly check-in, that I think is very, very powerful, in which you talk about, well, actually we start with appreciation. So what I appreciate about you, about what you've done. So often when we're in a very stressful situation, we don't appreciate anything about the other person. In fact, they just irritate us.
So if I start a meeting with an appreciation, I have to think about what I appreciate about that other person. You know, I appreciate the fact that you turn up to the meetings on time, even though I think that you should always turn up to the meetings on time.
I appreciate that you bought that thing or that you did that thing, even though I assume that you should do that anyway, because it does actually increase my level of appreciation. And it also makes me conscious, conscious of the level of my expectations and level of my resentments.
So if I turn those into appreciations and start the conversation with that that's very very helpful and also helps you see the things that are important to me but also it helps you feel appreciated which is a good place to start um then you can cover things like um challenges puzzles puzzles so a puzzle again it's very much business orientated but we if you frame
it as a puzzle You look at it from a, well, it might not be resolved. It's not necessarily, but it's something puzzle. It's something we play with. It's something we need to work with. It's something that doesn't necessarily have an answer. And because everything's so answer, answer, answer based, it removes the ability to breathe and think about it.
So framing it as a puzzle and having it as a, you know, what are our puzzles this week? What are your puzzles this week? And then you can have things like hopes and dreams. They're a really good one to put in. You know, what are your colleagues' hopes and dreams, even for the project?
and then again recheck in with that regularly and then complaints and recommendations because that's the one that we always want to start with you know what you've done wrong and what I recommend you do about it but that but that the complaint goes with the recommendation so if I've got a complaint then I need to be thinking about what my recommendation might be and
also take them as complaints right okay that's part of our agenda again it's not something that I need to action right now but again there are ways of having those conversations i've forgotten what the fifth one is
no that's brilliant and to be fair i think that's a great way of thinking about that structure and formalizing it but still making sure that it it has that sort of conversational tone which is lovely i remember it's new information it's new information
so new information is a really important one as well new information yes it might be new information about the about the project or the situation but new information may also be my um you know my child is off school for the next two weeks because their class is down with covid that's quite important information i might leave out of a team meeting might just get
on with it and deal with it but actually it's important you know if i have to okay my new information is that actually my my kids off for a couple of weeks
And that could impact in terms of performance. And if you didn't know about it, you might approach it slightly differently. Your child is sick and you've had to take some time off.
Also, people don't necessarily want to make a big deal out of it. You know, I'm handling it. I'm dealing with it. I'm getting on with it. But actually, and it might all be handled and dealt with and got on with. But actually, you might want to know that because you might care that, you know,
that's a stressful thing. Absolutely. And brilliant recommendations. I can already see how that could really add some value to a check-in. So if we think about some of the scenarios that our listeners might be going through, so we talked about remote working, we talked about digital transformation and, you know, direct conflicts. What about subtle sabotage?
Because that can sometimes be a real challenge to address, you know, when it's not overt. So how would you handle that kind of conflict where it's not as confrontational, perhaps, as as others? You need to
see what you observe and play it back so what I'm seeing is this behaviour, that behaviour I mean don't frame it as a behaviour I see that you're not speaking up in meetings that you're you know, whatever it is, whatever the resistant, look at the resistant behaviours first. And actually, it's good to just notice them.
You know, I can think that someone's being offish and holding back on a project. And in fact, it's got nothing to do with the project. So I need to get my facts clear. And that's what it is. It's about mirroring back what I see. This is what I'm seeing.
And then allowing the other person to come back and tell them what it is from their perspective, tell you what it is from their perspective.
And the honest truth is that they may obfuscate they may say that it's not true they may say that what you're seeing isn't true um because they don't necessarily want to accept it but they may hit they'll have heard what you've said um and it's a kind of a good starting point so don't go back and say no but you did do that um instead reflect back or mirror
back again okay, so for you, that's not what you're doing. And for me, that's what I'm experiencing. And just let that sit for a bit because actually just presenting your reality can be enough. Yeah.
And because that's a really interesting pieces. I think I'm one of those. I have fully omitted. I like to feel the space. And silence is not a place I'm particularly comfortable with. And actually, it's a really important tool to allow time for reflection is what I think you're saying to me.
It's time for reflection, but it's also time for the message to land. I don't have to go on and on and on about how you're making this project difficult. I can just present that what I'm seeing.
And allow that allow you to kind of process because you're going to feel uncomfortable about that if I tell you that I've seen that you're making it difficult you're going to feel uncomfortable about that and you might in the first instance react to me so I so I mean there's a process there's a process to work through that but you know just it you need to be
sensitive with it and and yeah don't over egg the pudding
and would you Would you just let it settle and then leave that thought with them? Or would you actually then address the concern and the impact of their decisions and how they behave?
It depends how urgent it is. I think you've got to be really careful of blaming and shaming and more moving towards allowing them to take responsibility. And then there are consequences. So, you know, Explain the impact of their behaviour on you, on the project. Ask them how they can deal with this. And then, you know, there are consequences, but it's their choice.
You know, that consequence is their choice instead of you're not doing that. And then, you know, and then it turning into an argument. I did do it for you. OK, so you feel like you've done it. But for me, it wasn't done as completely as it needed to be. So. Could you do it differently? Could you do it more completely? This is the time for it.
Really clear, really clear about boundaries again. This is what I expect. The use of my boundaries is what I expect. And I'm being fair. And also, this is what I'm observing. Being open to the fact that what I'm observing isn't the truth or that I might have made a mistake. And that is hard.
Yeah, because there is there is a piece in there where what you see is is and your perception is influenced by how you're feeling at the time. And, you know, your your previous experience in a similar scenario. So there's all sorts of things that go into your perception and what you're actually seeing and digesting might not actually be reality or complete reality.
Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. They do say that phrase, don't they? Your version of the truth, my version of the truth. And the reality is somewhere in the middle.
Yeah.
So and when obviously with with this. So you can obviously try as hard as you can to get to the right the right point or point where you've come to some sort of resolution. We won't say the word agreement because we know that that might not ever happen. might not be the case.
So when is mediation appropriate and what sort of circumstances would you look or suggest somebody to mediate a situation?
I think that there are various touch points, and we're talking about in the workplace situation. I think what managers can do is, I think it's really important, particularly now, that managers build up their skills. So what sometimes has happened is that it's all passed to HR and it escalates the situation.
to be able to have those kind of peer coaching conflict resolution conversations is quite important. But there might be a point where people disengage.
And I think that is often where mediation, low level mediation can be very, very helpful when people are just not having the same conversation and where things need to be, where decisions need to be taken quickly, where things need to be moved through more quickly.
But it's also important to try and have that culture within the organisation so people don't think, oh, you know, we've got mediation, oh, it's a big deal. Mediation doesn't have to be a big deal, but it does have to be done by people who know how to do it. So I think the answer to your question is, sorry, mediation is a process.
The mediator manages the process.
A lot of our say oh we're mediating when we're not we mediate when we apply the mediation process and there are you know that there are areas around it being voluntary confidential you that is quite tricky to manage in a workplace situation you've got to um the mediator is impartial how do you make sure that that that happens you know you might need to bring in
an external mediator or um not always not always but you need to have someone that can manage all those safety elements because they are the elements that make agreement uh happen and sustainable and ensure that the that the parties are well looked after doing what is quite tricky it's not easy falling out with someone it's not easy being confronted with the fact that
you've fallen out with someone so i think the point at which you think i can't i'm not sure where to go with this And or where people are mentally feeling not very well, it's quite a good time to start engaging in mediation. And or where you've hit a critical point where things need to be dealt with
now. Yeah, when you need a speedy resolution rather than being able to take your time and find your way through it. Yeah. Brilliant. And we talked a lot about employee, employer, you know, team leader and employee mediation. Well, what if it's not necessarily with somebody within your organisation? What is with external parties like supplier?
Is the process any different in terms of how you approach?
It is very different. And I'd say, you know, I'm really passionate about this at the moment because businesses need to be to move with speed at the moment. They need to make decisions quickly. They need to know where they are financially quickly. And often claims of even between five and ten thousand pounds can really hinder the business and they can be resolved.
And you can incur that same amount in legal fees really quickly. So although it's really important to get legal advice, me Mediation can often help resolve those things quite quickly, particularly financial disputes that need to get sorted because, you know, it's cash flow, it's bank balance, it's all those things you need to know where you are.
So I'd say with a commercial dispute with a contractor or with a supplier or even with a kind of partnership organisation, mediation needs to come in quickly. It's a less... It depends on the relationship, but often it's much more about having a really, really great structure to facilitate those tricky negotiations quickly in a framework that ensures that you're covered.
And I think that that's really important right now. And you can set that up within two weeks as opposed to the court process, which is going to be much longer, particularly now.
Absolutely, especially with the shift to a lot of the court cases trying to find ways to do it remotely as well. And if obviously I've what I've learned from today is that actually mediation and conflict resolution is definitely a skill. And from what you're saying is actually one that can be learned and developed.
So tell us a bit about if people do want to learn more about conflict resolution and how to do it. Is there any recommendations that you can give them?
Yeah, so we have just an entry point set of training that really make a difference. One is on building team relationships remotely. So that's all about how we overcome these conflicts. But at the same time, use conflict or tensions as a catalyst for change to build the relationships. Actually, those conflicts have the potential to build the relationships.
And also, and we look there at those check-ins in more detail to make them really, really effective because there are a lot of places where we can fall over. And we also have a training on negotiating difficult conversations remotely.
So making sure that you've got a really sure framework, both for commercial and workplace negotiations or tricky conversations that you're anticipating, that really make sure that you're structured in that negotiation and that it goes well. And from there, we do peer conflict coaching. But I'll put those links in here.
in uh in your podcast so that people have access to those and we're actually yeah we're launching those online so you can do them anytime very soon
wonderful and if um if people want to get hold of you um and have a chat about a specific scenario or get some help or some support what's the best way to get hold of you they can do that i have a
um they
can actually
book that straight into my diary i'll give you the link for that as well and we do so Sometimes you just need a conflict coaching conversation. Sometimes you just need a conversation that says, how do I get through this situation with my whoever, with my contractor, with my employee, with my boss? And we can have those conversations and move things on.
And yeah, I think it's really important, obviously.
Well, and from everything you're saying, I'm going to be honest, thank you so much for coming on this podcast. I have learned a lot just listening to this conversation. And yeah, I've definitely put those links to those trainings in the podcast description because I can imagine so many of our audience would be interested in learning more.
And, you know, it's a skill that I think a lot of us don't have and it's not one that's taught normally. So thank you so much, Louisa. It's been fabulous. Thank you, Nana. Thanks for listening and I hope you enjoyed this episode. I actually have a favour to ask. Reviews and shares are incredibly important to the success of any podcast.
If you could spare a minute to share this episode on your social network or leave us a comment to tell us what you liked, I would really appreciate it. Feel free to tell me what topics interest you most. I would really love to hear your feedback. Don't forget to check out our latest CFO 4.0 webinar on budgeting and planning in a volatile environment.
Click the link in the show notes or visit www.itassolutions.co.uk and click on our events page for more info and great content. And if you want to reach out at any point, tell us what you liked, tell us what we can do better, then feel free. Just email us at cfopodcast.itassolutions.co.uk. Thank you and speak soon.