Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance. The CFO role is changing rapidly, moving from cost controller to strategic visionary. And with every change comes opportunity. We are here to help you take advantage of this transition to win at work, drive your career forwards and lead with confidence.
Join Hannah Munro, Managing Director of ITAS, a financial transformation consultancy, as she interviews key experts to give you real-world advice and guidance on how to transform your processes, people, and data. Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance.
Did you know that 70% of CFOs still make decisions based on gut feeling rather than actual data? Join Hannah Munro. your host of CFO 4.0, for an online presentation where she discusses what you need to truly become a data-driven finance leader.
This session will not only talk about the why, but will also identify how you can automate your financial operations and get meaningful data to drive your business forwards. Check out the link in the show notes,
Hello and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. My name is Hannah Munro and I am your host for today. Today with me I have Tracy. So Tracy is the director of True Talent Team, which is an analytical tool to help individuals identify their strengths, talents and their behavior.
She's also the director of Curious Minds, which is a consulting company that designs and delivers bespoke development programs. So thank you for joining us today, Tracy.
You're welcome.
Brilliant. Good to be here. Good to have you. So could you just tell us a bit about your background and how you got into doing what you do?
Okay, so I'll start from my first sort of serious job, and that was with Cadbury's, the chocolate manufacturers. And I worked with them for about 19 years in senior roles, in commercial roles, sales and marketing. So had a great time working for them. did a lot with obviously influencing and working with people.
It was a brilliant company to work for because we had such great training. So, but I knew I didn't want to retire there. So I did my 19 years. I loved every minute of it and got lots of experience in customer facing roles. And then as I say, marketing roles, but wanted to do something different.
So in 2007, I decided to, leave actually it took me I planned to leave so I sort of planned all that for a couple of years but I went off and did a degree in photography fine art photography so and that was all about just going out and trying something radically different I didn't really know what I wanted to do with the rest of my career but I knew I
didn't want to stay where I was so So I studied art and I got so, so much more from that than I ever thought possible. And after doing my BA, I went on to do an MA. And when I finished my MA in fine art photography, I studied coaching and got my certificate in coaching from Henley.
So the thing that ties everything together is everything I did at Cadbury's was about influencing and understanding and motivating teams, clients, consumers. Everything I did in art, I studied around human behavior because what art gives us access to understand it to culture, to psychology, to philosophy. It's incredibly broad in understanding human behavior.
So that's why I studied that for five, I ended up doing that for five years. And then what I did is the coaching to just bring all my learning together to be able to work with others and help them develop and develop other people
awesome that's and that's such a contrast isn't it so all of that people side and people I guess I for one didn't understand how linked to behavior art is so in terms of so how did you get involved in the analytical tool
well I've always Yeah, so I've always been very analytical. My son might say I'm nosy, but I say I'm curious. So I have an analytical mind. trying to understand behavior. And that's why obviously the psychology and the philosophy comes into it. But I came across the tool. At that time, I was trained, I am trained in using DISC, which is another great tool.
There's plenty out there. But someone I spoke to said, oh, you're an artist. So you're working with image. You should really look at this tool because it uses image and text. So it's going to be perfect for you. And it was. And what I love about it is it's so efficient and effective. it also works on your energy and not only on your cognitive thinking.
So as soon as I came into contact with the tool, I knew it was something I wanted to work with because it combined everything for me and in that helping people understand, raising self-awareness.
And I guess at the moment, the way people work is changing quite rapidly and certainly with the different generations as well that are in the workplace. So tell us a bit about why it's important to understand your behaviour before you can sort of help people with others.
I think. most people recognize that probably a lot of the difficulties in our contact with others is around how we behave, this behavior. So, you know, you can skill people up and you can have highly skilled people, but it can all go very wrong when it comes to how we behave and how we work with each other. So, and human interaction is incredibly complex.
When I meet you, I come with all my history, all my background, all my cultural influences, plus me, the me that I am, I started as. And you bring all that to our relationship. So even in this interaction, there's a lot of complexity. So the more I can understand what's happening for me, the more choice I have and how I respond to you.
And I guess that's an important thing.
So we talk a lot about going through change and going through transformation and actually, for a successful program around change and around transformation you have to be able to communicate well and i would say it's probably the biggest barrier to a successful project is that because people don't like change we talk about this a lot on this podcast um but actually if
you communicate it well then you can engage much better and you get much better results and there's a lot less um challenge along the way so Obviously, a lot of our, in fact, most of our listeners work in the finance environment. So either accounting or they're finance directors.
So can you tell us a little bit about the sort of profiles you would see in that side of the business, which would be very different to say somebody in sales or marketing or, you know, is a different kind of profile, isn't it?
Well, you could say that. It's very interesting because the profile could be very similar, but cultural and environment could have shaped the person. So quite often we'll see in the environment, in accounting and certainly with CFOs, that they're not natural analysts. Interesting. But they're really, really good at doing analysis because...
It comes from, the whole tool is based on Jungian psychology. So I'm just saying, let's take a step back slightly before I go forward with this. And Jung says, you're born with a blueprint of you. And as we grow, we come into contact with events and people and things that help us develop. And in that blueprint are fears and sensitivities as well as talents.
So the dark and the light side of us.
So if you've been brought up in an environment that it's really important that you're taken seriously, that you get things right, that you might have become a bit of a perfectionist, when it comes to the analytical, so quite often if I look at actuaries, which I work with quite a lot of, it's so important for them to get things right.
But it's driven from an energy of needing control. So they've learned it's adaptive behavior and it's something that they're very, very good at. So quite often, nine times out of 10, if I do a scan of a CFO, they will have the analyst in their shadow. So it would be the need to have certainty, the need to have clarity, the need to have control.
So it's a fear will make them very good and make sure all the, T's are crossed and the I's are dotted. At times of pressure, what happens is that if you're an analyst in shadow, then sometimes you'll need too much information. It slows you down. So you've got a whole team of people that are incredibly good at the analytical stuff.
But as change comes in, they're going to really struggle because they're they have to let go of the controlling bit. And the more they have fear and stress, the more need they will have for control. Whereas someone like me, that's a natural analyst, I can do the detail, but I don't because my need for analyzing things is I need to understand.
So I don't need it for control, but I need it to understand. So as a marketeer, It's a really lovely talent because I really want to get under the skin of what motivates and what shifts people. But I don't need to control it. I don't need to make sure everything's 100% accurate.
So you talk a lot about elements being in, talents being in shadow. Do you want to just give us a bit of an overview as to what does that spectrum look like? What are the sort of the sections of that and what you mean by in shadow or sort of coming to the fore?
Okay, so shadow behavior, it's a Jungian concept. And we all have light and shade, so we'll all have shadow behavior. So I'm trying to think of the easiest way to explain it for you. Quite often what it is, is you'll bump into people that you don't like or irritate you, or certain things might irritate you. Most of the time, those things belong to you.
And you will see it in the other because it's part of you that you don't like. So we bury it. We give it to somebody else. So if I don't like, so my, okay, so for me, it's really important to belong, like most of us, but I have a sensitivity to belonging.
So if I'm in a group and someone's talking too much, I might not like them because I think, gosh, they take up all the airtime. But I have a propensity to, at times to take up the airtime.
Ah, so what you're doing is you're seeing the behaviours that you know that you have subconsciously and you're seeing those in others.
Yep. Interesting. So that's why when you look at films like The Wolf of Wall Street, it's all shadow behavior. It's all pretty awful. But then you get in environments where change is happening, and if everybody's under stress and the shadow starts playing out, then the behavior will be very dysfunctional.
And I will be projecting all the things that are uncomfortable with me because I'm stressed onto other people. So you see it more played out shadow when there's stress.
So in terms of the, you talk about shadow versus light behavior. So light would be the complete opposite, would it be? So when you're in a good space, it's the things that are strong about you and that's what you'd be seeing in others potentially?
Yep, absolutely. So I do this thing that, who do you really admire and what qualities do they have? Because actually they probably belong to you too.
That's interesting.
So- yeah so so and when there's not it's and i talk about energy where is your energy so you know when you're in shadow because you will feel a real compulsion to do something it'll be really important so you'll get a knot in your stomach it'll be like you'll get I talk about the rabbit hole.
So you lose all your peripheral vision and it becomes crucial that you do something. Crucial that I get this right. It's crucial that I belong in this group and I don't get rejected. It's crucial that I'm not manipulated. So I'm gonna make a decision really quickly so nobody else can push me around.
So you get into that zone where you'll feel it in your stomach or you'll feel that it sort of, you go down this hole and it's really, really important. When you're in natural energy It never feels like that. It always feels more like this is the right thing to do. I'm open. I'm in an open place. My energy's flowing. So, yeah, it
feels very different. Month-end close is one of the most time-consuming and stressful processes for financial teams. 74% of mid-sized organisations take over a week and between two and five staff members to complete their close.
Join us, the ITIS team, for our on-demand webinar, where we look at key findings from a Close the Books survey conducted with 762 participants across a range of industries and platforms. Learn how Brian Goldrick from Vera Whole Health shortened his close by 60%, increased team efficiencies by 25%, and 10 best practices that you can take to reduce your close.
Visit www.itissolutions.co.uk and go to our events page or click on the link in the show notes to sign up now.
Okay, so if we just take that back to what we talked about earlier, in terms of sort of going through a change or a stressful time, even within a finance team, I can think of a number of teams that are working through a stressful month end. So what what can we take from that in terms of what we need to watch out for what we need to be aware of?
And are those the sorts of things that will push us into that sort of shadow side as it were, and that we need to look out for?
Yeah, definitely. So things that trigger you. What do you, you know, first, what do I need in order to, it's recognition of the stressful situation. It's recognizing what you need. It's being able to articulate to others what you need, being listened to. And that then reduces the stress because you feel less under attack.
And if we flip that the other way, so say you're aware of where you're at and you're managing yourself. If you're working with a team of people going through this change, what sorts of things do you need to be careful of or watch out for?
The things that spark people are emails that are abrupt or just don't land very well. People not speaking to each other. So the communication piece is always the piece. So it's, you know, I love the scrum process on the daily stand-ups because everybody is really clear who's doing what, how they fit in with things. They were clear about the progress.
We're clear about what we're working towards. We're goal-orientated as human beings. So we're really clear we're moving in the right direction. So clarity is really important. Not sending curt emails, but actually, if you can, pick up the phone and go see people and go through. So the other thing I do is something called nonviolent communication.
And the model in that is just going through first what I observe, I feel we're all under pressure here, but we've got to get these figures out or it feeds into the bigger goal. So you talk about what's going on.
Then you talk about, and I'm feeling really vulnerable because I'm falling behind a couple of hours or I'm feeling a bit vulnerable because I'm not sure where you are with things. So what I need to do is just get some clarity here to just touch base again so we can move forward. So Would you be willing or can we sit down and just talk about this?
Can I have a couple more hours? So then you put the request. But you need to go through those stages. Because what often happens is just, I need that report by tomorrow. I need your figures by then.
Yeah, that's pretty standard, to be fair. In a lot of finance teams, they are the source of the information.
So it's just a case of really clear about what it is you're after, why, how it fits in, how you're feeling, what your needs are, and then making a request.
Okay, so I guess, so there's a couple of things I think it would be good to talk about then. So we talked very much about, firstly, when you're managing this kind of project, being incredibly clear. prioritising verbal and face-to-face conversations versus written.
Watch the tone of your emails and just be aware that you could have an impact with those, which is a great tip, to be fair. And in terms of actually for those that are struggling with this change process, have you got any tips or suggestions to get people on board and to get them engaged in that process?
Well, I think that... I mean, the first, obviously we do the scan with people. And so once you do the scan, the me scan, which is from the True Talent team, you can talk to people where their sensitivities are. So you really help them heighten their awareness around where the triggers are for them. The other thing... Sorry, go
on. No, no, you carry on.
Okay, so the other thing with the MeScan, it not only looks at your talents, but it looks at how you interact with your environment. So whether you're showing up, whether you're being too people-pleasing. So we can talk to individuals and teams about where their energies are as a team. And it also looks at whether you have a sense of purpose and meaning.
And Nietzsche, you know, if we know the why, we can deal with any how. So the way... of dealing with real stress is really understanding what your why is, what your purpose is, and what's really important to you, your values, how you're going to conduct yourself, and what triggers you, what's making you feel vulnerable.
And people do not take any time to think about these things. So what is it about this change that's making me feel vulnerable? What aspects of it scare me? What aspects of it make me excited?
And I guess having those conversations at the beginning of a project rather than dealing with the aftermath when you're midway through and these things are coming up is probably a good way of actually getting hold of that process.
Because there's always, I must admit, when we go through change projects, there's always that fear around, oh, you know, does this mean that I, you know, this is making my job more efficient? Does that mean that I'm no longer necessary?
You know, and actually, for me, it's about changing the type of role that individuals are doing rather So, and I think that's one of the interesting things that's happening in finance at the moment is that a lot of the roles are changing. So they're going from pure data entry roles into more analytical strategic style roles.
And it'd be interesting to get your take on, you know, how that works. how that process could manifest itself in terms of, you know, the shift that people are going to have to make and change around that.
And I think the most important thing is the leadership and the management style. And what you, yeah, I mean, you'll go to finance departments that are very autonomous, that have systems that allow people to have control. And obviously you'll go to ones that are, You do your work at the bottom, your manager checks it, and then his manager checks it.
And then you're gonna struggle. You're going to struggle with that change. And what I find is quite often you've got entrepreneurs actually, visionaries, and they're not valued for those things.
And unless the leadership changes, the way they structure things and the way they talk and their need for control, then they're not gonna maximize what talents they've got in the team. So I don't know if you've seen the greatness, David Marquess, is it Marquette video?
No, I haven't actually, that's one I haven't seen.
Okay, so he says, make the decision, where the information is held.
Yeah, I've heard that phrase before.
Yeah. And he says that there are two pillars. One is capability and the other is vision, direction, clarity. So if you set the two pillars, you can then allow the autonomy at the place where the information is held. And that's not happening in a lot of finance departments, I would say.
So give us, so if we just talk through that in terms of like a more real life scenario. So what you're, just make sure I'm understanding that and our listeners are. So what you're saying there is that, you know, decisions around what should be done next should be made by the people that have direct access to that information.
Yeah. So if we think about that example, so a decision as to whether to, approve the paying of an invoice, for instance, should be made by the people that actually know whether that invoice is correct, whether it's been authorised previously by somebody in that department and whether those goods have been delivered and delivered and received by the organisation.
So what you're saying is rather than sending it off to some manager that then has to interpret that information, actually bringing that department on board and actually giving it at that lower level, that's an interesting concept. And I guess if we take that a step further, you talk about decisions across the organisation that rely quite heavily on finance.
So how, you know, and how to do, in terms of the benefits of doing that, does he talk about, have you seen any real life examples of where that's worked really well?
Well, teams that I've worked with, That's what happens. That's the whole point in a way of bringing me in is understanding where the talent is, what sort of vision they need and what clarity they need and what systems they need in place in order to help them function like that.
So I might work with the team, definitely work with teams, then people get shifted or their responsibilities change slightly because... They're not being used for their natural talents. They're being used for their maybe shadow. And that doesn't work. All you end up is holding things up. And this is at director level, so quite a senior level.
So things will be shifted around. And then I work with team to help them lead in a way that empowers others. And there's some things that always are tight, and I talk about tight and loose, you know, some things that you need to be tight on, and there needs to be control, and other things that doesn't.
And it's being clear, we get into this mode that everything has to be done in a certain way, rather than breaking it out into where do we have, can we give control, or are there things that we don't, that we have to hold on to.
So in that video, he talks about he's the, as the captain, the only decision he keeps ultimate responsibility for is launching a missile. Yeah.
And very strangely, now you described it in that way. I have seen that video and it's an incredible video to be fair. So for those of you that haven't seen it, I will put the link in this podcast because I have seen it.
recently actually which is a which is a slap on the wrist for me because i should have remembered that one so we talk about you know finding roles that really suit somebody's strengths and you know i've personally done a lot of um research into sort of strengths based um coaching and all of that side so talk to us about the different strengths that you might
find in your team so what kind of strengths um are we talking about here um
people-orientated, empathetic, which is connecting, being open, open to others. But also in that empathetic area is really understanding what others need. So, and I'll give you the flip side. So I'll give you the strength. So that empathetic, the flip side of empathetic, the shadow side is too caring, which means you can be interfering.
Yeah. And take too much responsibility and blame for how others are. But the upside, the empathetic side is infinitely connected, open, and being able to hold yourself while still being open to others. So another is the collaborator, innovator. So that's more of an engineering archetype that fits in with that.
So that is someone that can naturally see how things are connected, their ideas, people, But they walk into a room and they work out sort of where everyone's connected, what's going on. They'll look at different things and work new ways of systems and how everything's connected. So that's the innovator. And they're true collaborators. And a true collaborator...
If you put them in a team and say that you've got no freedom, you just got to work with that team, they'll be absolutely fine. With someone that has that in the shadow and you say, right, okay, you're going to work with the team, but you'll have no freedom. They go, oh, that doesn't feel good.
And so they'll also be ideas people, but they might have too many ideas and it'd be a bit too prolific and it'd be driven more from their form of how they see themselves and their need to belong. So what happens with an idea for someone that's not a natural collaborator is they get overprotective of their idea. So then you've got the visionary.
So someone that's able to take a holistic look and see to the future, see opportunities and possibilities. They can be persuasive. They're good storytellers. So that's the visionary. But the flip side of visionary is that If you have that shadow, you become too idealistic. So the goals can be set too high and you can lose people.
But you can be very inspirational in the shadow as a visionary. And I've worked with people that are motivational talkers that are brilliant and they have that in their shadow because they set the bar so high. They're really aspirational.
Yes.
Yeah, so then you've got the decisive type, so someone that can really make, you know, under pressure, make really clear decisions, really strong decisions, but they'll always be nuanced.
So if you've got it in the shadow, you make strong decisions, but from a fear of manipulation, being manipulated, so you might be erratic at times and make too strong and be too resolute, so not be flexible or nuanced.
Yeah.
So, and then you've got the analyst. So that's somebody that connects things from an analytical point of view that can get insights from multiple sources and make sense of things. So they give people clarity. Flip side is perfectionist and control. And then on the leader side, you've got someone that can take responsibility and give others responsibility.
They tend to be lighter in their touch, their leadership touch, because it's all about responsibility rather than who am I. So when it comes on the flip side, it's much more about I am the leader.
And people that don't have it as a natural can be perfectly good leaders, but they might have to watch a little bit of times they become too, blow themselves up too big and too important. So, yeah, we call Belasconia sort of one of the examples of that. And there's probably some more recent ones, but I won't get political. And then we've got the communicator.
So that's the business-orientated person that sees the needs very quickly, helps people move forward. And then the last one in there is the pragmatic sort of, that's where that, you know... goal-orientated. So that's the sort of range that we work with.
So you're looking at people, skills, people connectedness, creativity from a thinking point of view, and then the intuitive visionary leader is as well intuitive. And the feeling type is the resolute. And then the more sensing ones are the analyst and the concrete realist.
Within a team, when you're looking to step up into, say, a leadership role, you're in a leadership role and you have to work in a leadership team. You mentioned there's particular traits that are more natural leaders. And you talked about it not necessarily being a blocker if you don't have that natural leadership piece.
So could you just talk about how those that aren't natural leaders, how they would work slightly differently from those that are natural leaders?
It's just pulling on your talents, really, your strengths. So on the board, everything's linked to everything else. So you're never just one. It's a combination of these things. So if somebody came out as an inventive analyst and they're a resolute communicator, then all you would be doing is talking to them about how they use those skills to lead their team.
And they were likely going to be leading a team that's very much a we team. What
do you mean by a we team?
So you might walk in the room and not know who the leader is.
Interesting.
So it would be beneficial to have a more collaborative approach. So the problem being, if you're in a culture that wants to see leaders at the front barking the orders... say, then the collaborative leader might struggle in that environment. So they've got to find their way of fitting in their environment but using their talents and not becoming that shadow leader.
And I guess that's something that's a whole different topic, isn't it, about how to find the right organization for you. And actually, by what you're saying is it's it's not just about knowing yourself. It's not about knowing your team. It's also about knowing what kind of organization you're.
expectations there are around your leadership capabilities and finding a way to manage that as well definitely if we take that step further it's actually well rather than trying to make yourself work in that environment is it about picking the right organisation to work with in the beginning and I think we could probably spend another 30 minutes talking about that as well
yeah definitely and I do work with people that struggle in their organisation so but You know, I'm always, my focus, and always has been, when I was at Cadbury's, my whole life is never on, you know, what but how. Yeah. So how do you do that? How do you do this? What will you get? And that comes back to what's my purpose?
What do I want to get from here?
But I do see people really struggling in environments, and it's hard as a coach because I'm there to coach them, not to give them any... advice or say gosh you're really struggling but I will work with them to think about how they get what they need in order to thrive as much as they can but there is something about that culture as well that makes a big
difference
Okay, so I'm just very aware of time because this is a really fascinating subject. But so in terms of wrapping up, I think it's good to sort of talk about what we've covered in the last 30 minutes. So we talked about the fact that going through change, just be aware of your own strengths and how you deal with certain situations.
We talked about also being aware of others and what they're looking for.
We talked about when you're in an uncertain environment, which I'm going to admit a lot of businesses a lot of leaders and a lot of individuals are at the moment that you need to be aware particularly around your shadow behaviors so things that might put you in a position or make you react in a way that perhaps isn't beneficial to you or your team and and then
it's it's it's going through that by knowing yourself and knowing your team you're actually you can support them through that process and the biggest takeaway I think for everyone out of this is focus on the why if you know why why you're doing things and that purpose, you have a lot more resilience to change.
Definitely.
Well, thank you so much, Tracy. That was genuinely fascinating. So if anyone wants to find out more about you and about or about the tool that you talk about on today's podcast, how can they do that? What's the best way to get hold of you?
Probably just email me directly or contact me through LinkedIn. It's Tracy McEachran on LinkedIn. I think, will you put the links at the end, Hannah?
Yes, so I'll put in, for those of... people that are listening will pop in the link to your LinkedIn profile so that they can pop on and have a look or they can contact you at your Curious Minds Consulting. What's the website for Curious Minds?
So it's www.curiousmindsconsulting.com.
Fantastic. Well, thank you so much, Tracey. And I'm sure our listeners found it incredibly valuable. I certainly did. And yeah, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for listening and I hope you enjoyed this episode. I actually have a favour to ask.
Reviews and shares are incredibly important to the success of any podcast. If you could spare a minute to share this episode on your social network or leave us a comment to tell us what you liked, I would really appreciate it. Feel free to tell me what topics interest you most. I would really love to hear your feedback.
Don't forget to check out our latest CFO 4.0 webinar on budgeting and planning in a volatile environment. Click the link in the show notes or visit www.itassolutions.co.uk and click on our events page for more info and great content. And if you want to reach out at any point, tell us what you liked, tell us what we can do better, then feel free.
Just email us at cfopodcast.itassolutions.co.uk. Thank you and speak soon.