2. What Employers and Employees are looking for in a CFO with John Smith

Munro, Managing Director of ITAS, a financial transformation consultancy, as she interviews key experts to give you real-world advice and guidance on how to transform your processes, people, and data. Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance.

she discusses what you need to truly become a data-driven finance leader. This session will not only talk about the why, but will also identify how you can automate your financial operations and get meaningful data to drive your business forwards. Check out the link in the show notes,

eventually had the bottle to launch on my own. And so we set the business up about three years ago. And yeah, we've kind of gone from strength to strength from there over the last three years.

I think most of them are anticipating and experiencing massive change in technology and AI. And I think as a result of that, it's feeding down that they expect their FDs and CFOs to absolutely be that forward-facing, involved

business partner that can deal with change. and whether their businesses aren't necessarily experiencing a massive amount of change currently, I think all of them have an awareness that probably came down the corner.

So I don't think that's necessarily new, but I think more than ever in my career I'm finding that they're looking for FDs and CFOs that can describe their ability to cope with change and manage change and drive positivity. So I think that's always a focus of conversation whenever I go and meet business owners that are looking for an FD.

So I think that's almost every time we take a document, that will be part of the brief. Other than really kind of traditional SMEs, they're kind of doing what they've always done and want to do what they've always done.

Every other business that I deal with, whether it be on a lead or private equity backed or ELT, I probably have their eye on having to improve or completely change their technology.

So it's got to be somebody that has a demonstrate track record of bringing a solution to the table and can constantly drive that in front of them. I don't think that necessarily has to be linked to a particular type of change.

So if they've been through an acquisition or a business going through from a point of being cashed into more cash positive, if they've been through putting a new system in, it's kind of how do they approach the bumps in the road that inevitably everybody knows they'll experience during that journey.

and something's probably that and i think basically what's probably battle scarred and again it's people that haven't necessarily just got in a stable environment been doing what they've always done and at the moment i just don't think that watches that and that it doesn't you know and it has to be something that can describe a whole a whole ream of reactions and and

problems almost they've had to get the business through and so i think it's all that it's all a focus around what have you done differently rather than can you manage the business as usual? Because I think they'll just anticipate that you can do that and we'll take that as well.

as well that you can get a set of numbers out, manage a team to get year-end boxed off. It's much more about the business is hoping to do this and this. You talk us through evidence that suggests you can be leading force in the boardroom and driving that.

working with commercial and operational colleagues and by nature I think those characters are probably potentially tougher to manage because they've got higher expectations of the business and they probably want higher contact with the FD end quicker, they want that face time, they want that mentoring support and they're often the candidates that businesses want so I think

there's an emphasis there on the CFO and FDs to be able to attract and then be able to retain those people so that's probably changed

rather than that's been with the FC who would lead the team and the CFO will be kind of upwards facing into the boardroom.

So I guess one of the questions is, you know, what kind of CPD should those already in roles and having that opportunity to be looking for, you know, to support them in terms of their career development?

I think a lot are increasingly turning to strong executive coaches who might potentially support a business and go and support the CFO and the CFO gets invited to that party now. I don't think that's necessarily new, but I think now it's an expectation that that that shouldn't be happening.

But it's not formalised, it's not standardised, because it's again down to the particular exec coach as to what their experience is, who their client base and demographic are. I think that there probably is a space for someone to be delivering a more consistent, whatever model they like.

Are there any other areas you're seeing those roles sort of pick up that wouldn't normally have been under sort of that area, as it were?

Increasingly and interestingly, HR then starts to perform. HR and payroll potentially as a function bolts itself under the FD. So they absolutely have that sort of overarching staff responsibility and cultural and development responsibility. And then again, we're increasingly seeing either sales or operational functions or both.

You know, to see if I was more and more increasingly working with a marketing director, a sales director, not just around the pricing model of a tender or a new bid, but actually then getting involved in, well, I want people to meet the customer, I want to be involved in the sale process, for example.

And then I say that creates a brilliant gateway, because the journey should naturally be that that person then opts to step out of finance, again, in inverted commas, and becomes the potential number one or number two for the business.

The challenge that people have in that situation, again, is that there isn't necessarily an obvious qualification that both sells in, or an obvious second level for past getting team or ATCA or ATA qualifying.

So what options do they have for career development and their personal development? What sort of things should people be asking when they're going into this role, particularly when it's one that requires a transformation focus, as it were?

Because I think apparently you will get people that are change resistant and you need to get a little bit of an understanding of what's the consensus.

When I arrived on day one, almost what I'm getting myself into are people banged up for this change and are they going to be welcoming with open arms or actually is there a little bit of a journey to cope them to come to the party I think also it's really interesting not just for this level but actually for that next level beneath the kind of senior management

accountants commercial accountants business partners that lots of businesses have an immediate need for change and they'll sell it or another better way of putting it they'll spill through how long that project will take what your involvement will be how exciting it will be And that's great, but I think the parties need to understand what happens in phase two when we've

boxed that off. Everybody, the candidate that's then coming in has got a really high expectation of, I've done all this great stuff.

You know, one, I want rewards for it, whether that be financial, whether it be with the intent of career development progression, but also what connecting, because what you often find is if a business goes through a loaded change, the people spend 12 months or 18 months doing it, once it's done, everybody takes a breath. there isn't something immediately on the horizon.

The business class, that person who has been hired on the capability and interest in delivering some improvement to go back into a business as usual job. And it can send you great friction. And then what happens is you see a tendril rolling door of 12 to 18 months. That person goes off and goes and does something else with another business.

And it leaves you with that dilemma of, well, actually, we've never held on to anybody for more than a couple of years in mid-finance. So I think it's really important that everybody's clear about when we've done it, is there a step two?

And if there's not, do you then potentially start to consider, well, actually, do we hire an intern, a communication specialist, or is he interested in that sort of project? Does he do it for 12 months and then kick-back and does it elsewhere and doesn't create a load of disruption and staff attrition?

And is it a fault of the business that they haven't identified that next step? Or is it that actually there is a limit to the amount of change that's required within a business and in finance?

Because businesses are actually and have got the headline being continues improving environments and that's great and it's a continued cycle but i think others potentially have will have phases because sometimes it takes a big finance investment to deliver and sometimes that's just not there in the no necessarily in the cash flow forecast so whilst they might have the

mentality you know often if it's technology and you're catching potentially that thermal support um if it's just chipping away at you know trying to think slightly better Sometimes that's not enough, and that's probably the people that are coming in and wanting to do the big strategic

And we talked about co-preservers as drivers in it, and it's sort of identifying that you want a whole team full of people who can survive during a period of change and aren't going to necessarily mumble and grumble but maybe they won't necessarily want to take the leading reins but they're happy to be on the train with you versus the people that absolutely want to

be in the front seat because the people in the front seat then don't necessarily want to be relegated in their mind back into a more sort of standardised role when they finish so it's good if you can almost dovetail a project rather than launching everything all at once potentially

And I guess for me, there's a question around what kind of personal development can you give to those individuals so that their job role change? Because for us, that change in technology should drive a change in the roles that people are performing long term.

So that shift onto data analytics, insight driven ribbon versus Excel-based data entry, as it were, which is really interesting. And I still go into so many companies where these really talented people are sitting there just typing numbers into Excel sheets, which for me just seems crazy, especially with the technology that we have today. Yeah,

So if you're meeting the FD, and they're moving to an updated stage or whatever it might be, often that's where the competition stops, whereas if you continue to put your light into the why and what the long-term aim is, that will usually be part of a broader agenda today. For example, we were working with a business recently.

They were upgrading to an ERP because they were looking to then go on an acquisition spree, and they needed to have much more of their financial ducks in a row in the streamline. So as the businesses they bought came on board, they could be easily upgraded into it.

and that's brilliant because the person who puts the system in, you can see a three, four year plan whereas the businesses are going through, they're involved in due diligence, they're involved in bringing that business over the line, standardising it, it's a much wider piece rather than taking that job to market to say the great top ones could be involved in the system

change. There's just so much behind it and I think that's often the case, it's where they'll invest in that system for the sake of it being a bit neater and tighter. I don't know if you see the same.

So because that's what they're there to do. And I think that that whole piece, I think you've hit the nail on the head there in terms of figuring out what you want from that person. And perhaps the short-term person isn't the long-term, you know, steady hand on the rudder, as it were, that you're wanting.

I think it's interesting, though, with the uncertainty that's happening and actually transformations, whether it's the businesses that we're speaking to, transformation is the key topic that we're having to go in and speak to people about and how we enable that. So we talked a lot about what employers want from an FD or a CFO role.

and we've talked a little bit about the the mid-market so the sort of the mid-level roles within that finance team um and some of the challenges that they're facing what in in terms of what those those lower down the finance um totem pole as it were what are they looking for from an fd or a cfo

You know, even at grassroots and transactional finance, people want to be, you know, interested in going to work, being involved in projects, being involved in things that we can improve, given some headroom.

so i think you've got a lot of people that you have to map out and you have to be really supporting them in terms of their own personal development even if they're comfortable at the level they're at you know so you might find someone that says I'm at management accounts level I've got no desire to be the FD but actually I don't just want to be put into a

corner and look at my devices I still want to feel like I'm being developed and being invested in and I think alongside that in that group of people who may be sitting in that group better copers than they are drivers of change then there's a huge expectation around work-life balance.

Because if there's a lot going on between the nine to five and they're going to be very busy and they're in that continuous improvement cycle, actually they want some flexibility with the vacuums there.

Whether that be in terms of actually going to the stage up with 2,000 in one of their four days, or whether that's in their core hours of ten to four and they can And they can use that flexibility around their work and reach out for holidays or whatever that might be.

I don't think people are willing to turn up on me for a period of massive changes to the business and get back their salary and their pension.

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individuals and have you seen a shift in the amount of cfos that are recruiting temporary staff to cope with change projects

I think that might be the tipping point of the whole Brexit debacle and the little bit political and economic unrest around it of a particularly more responsible employee saying, you know what, we can't have to put our hand on our heart and say when this project is finished that there's a permanent role there.

So rather than hire permanent, we are going to hedge our bets and bring in interim. So I think that's probably some temporary requirement.

And I think you also, there's also, this has probably been playing out over the last two or three years, there are now a bank, if you like, of temps and intrims who have been through some of these transformations, maybe done, you know, two, 12, 13, 14 months, and want their next one, rather than want to sit in until the aftermath.

I think the challenge that businesses have just got to be really honest around when we've done this project, what will the horizon look like? What will we need at that stage?

Because the headache that we've seen play out is that they don't do that and they hire a whole team of people that are great at delivering the change and get a whole financial focus on that.

And then if 40, 50% of those people en masse decide that they want to go and do that again somewhere else, the technology that you put in or the change processes you put in, all the expertise and people who know what they're for and know how they work, almost pay overnight.

So I think business has got to be really careful about wrapping their arms and legs around those people once all it takes is making sure that there's enough there for them.

And even if that is to say, you know what, guys, it's six months of, let's all take a breath and do business as usual, but in these six months you've got a higher degree of flexibility or we're going to give you an extra five-day holiday, that bit more thinking outside the box gets people over the hump of that kind of what can feel a bit deflating.

And continually expecting that those people are going to be involved in those projects, eventually you probably put them to a breaking point.

There's people that can't cope with change, those that can cope with change but don't particularly want to be in that state constantly and that those that if they haven't got change that they feel somehow unfulfilled in their lives so let's let's just talk about those different roles and how or in fact that middle role because i think that's a difficult one to find

isn't it those that like the the sort of they they don't mind doing the day-to-day and they they like a sort of a consistent role but can cope with change what how do you find those kind of people those co as it were.

A lot of people I meet, especially if they've been in a role for a long time, you know, they've been a company accountant for 10 years, the business, they'll often say the business hasn't been through a lot of change or the business didn't particularly want to change and they often fall short into it because people find that thinking actually this person can't deal

with it. Actually, when you dig a bit deeper in an interview and you can sort of talk through what they've done, they often can't, it's just that they've trivialised it. So, I think if you talk about, has the business changed ownership? Has the business changed system? Did the business have difficult trading conditions during the recession?

Has the business ever purchased another business? Has the business ever put itself up for sale? There's so much stuff that people don't consider that if they frame it properly, damage rates they have dealt with change, it's just that they didn't necessarily recognise it all the time, lost in the event of the next three or four years.

So I think that is sometimes a proof it should be supporting those people to say, you know, are you part of those few people who really can't deal with change, of which I think there aren't many. You know, there is an old guard of people, or potentially some people that find change very uncomfortable.

Most people do like a bit of change, but it's about poking out at them and seeing those at sea now and then social it's easy now how did you deal with it what was your specific impulse about process and it's a prize in some of these people eats and it is be a bit more study some of the things that they've been through over five ten fifteen years of the

business can be quite but but they don't give them the top credit for it and I think it was from anybody from all the problems it up you make some for every quarter half year or definitely every year as a minimum to sit and and take some time out to work out, okay, what has changed this year? Has anybody in the boardroom changed?

Have any of our key customers changed? Have we invested in the business? Anything at all has changed. What were they involved in it? How did they manage it? What problems did they bring? What solutions did they bring to the table? Because as I say, it's easy to sort of overlook them and then all of a sudden you can't remember them anymore.

the decision that you've got to make is do you want drivers or do you want copers you know have you got the right mix within your team and then make making sure that you're interviewing for those particular attributes versus expecting everyone to embrace change and jump into it. So I think that's an interesting concept.

And I think there's a tendency, isn't there, to just want everybody to be all over a new project and to want to lead it. And actually, you need the doers as much as you need the leaders within your teams.

Because if you hire a team full of drivers, labouring the point is very much around what are you going to do with them when you potentially have a period where you run out of it runway.

It's about the personalities that you get and that balance you have within the team as well in terms of skill sets um which is which is always key and the experience as well there's a lot of experience i think in the older workforce that's not necessarily being taken advantage of awesome okay so um so we've talked about a lot today so we talked about sort of

the the shift in what employers are looking for we've gone through um what um team members that we're recruiting might be looking for um and i and I guess what we should be looking for in terms of new team members.

Is there anything else that we should be considering when we're looking, we've talked about sort of the driver versus caper, is there anything else we should be considering when we're hiring new junior members of our team?

The dynamic of that relationship, you're signing into thinking, yeah, this works perfectly, and we're absolutely in the same energy. That's great. Ultimately, the two of you are probably unlikely to be in a room together a lot with the rest of the team, because you're probably going to delegate day-to-day management of that project down into that person.

And it really gets your head around, does their personality and management approach and project approach will that necessarily gel with the rest of the people that you're working with because I think you can end up with lots of big characters on a project and when actually you just loop into a lot of the grassroots change in terms of mapping out processes bedding in

new controls all that type of grassroots finance that feeds up into the overarching project if that team don't pie into this person coming in you need to have that conversation either they need to be mindful of that and change their approach It could be that you pull up in a negative back head with the rest of the team and whilst you two get on brilliantly, it's

kind of what's going on in the day-to-day. So I think it's understanding that, yeah, okay, they manage a bunch of characters that might not necessarily have the same natural sort of capacity capability or

And I'm guessing what we're saying here as well is if you're going to bring in a driver, somebody to drive change and help support you through that process, then you need to make sure that their soft skills are up to scratch as well.

Because there's nothing I can, having been through it, I can tell you there's nothing worse than having a member of that team that not a great communicator or can't get the rest of the team on board so

group we're all coming to deliver this change when we've finished it we're all going to migrate it across to another function and we're all going to go do it somewhere else and that's a really different job to come into our business where we've got a team of purchase ledger partners credit control function a team of assistant managers who already know what they're

doing and who already do what they do quite well because you're going to get a different level of resistance you're going to have to get a different set of tools out to get each of those individuals on the right page.

And that's completely different to hiring people, working with a whole host of individuals who already have that well mapped out from the day they join the business. So I think it's just underneath, how did you manage the project? What were the pitfalls? What were people's fight for it when you arrived? And do you think that might be different to what you get here?

If so, how are you going to approach the different challenges?

So just to sum up for those that are listening. So what we've talked about is that we're seeing a shift in the recruitment of CFOs. There's very few CFOs that or certainly new CFO roles that don't have an element of transformation, whether that's technological or process driven within their organisation.

Employees are looking for FDs that are not only able to cope with change, but to drive it and to act as that strategic advisor to the rest of the team, the management team.

We talked about the shift in the expectations, not only from the employer, but also the team members, where it's all about culture and about work-line balance and how do you set those expectations at the beginning so that your team team members stay motivated whether they're going through change or or even after that change and making sure you're asking those right

questions of both your team members and your employers as to what they're wanting and what they're expecting and you know so that you're all set up for success the fact that we've covered that in half an hour is amazing so thank you so much um john um so if anyone is looking to have some advice and some help with the recruitment of their their team um how

can they get hold of you what's the best way to find out more about you and your your company

Feel free to tell me what topics interest you most. I would really love to hear your feedback. Don't forget to check out our latest CFO 4.0 webinar on budgeting and planning in a volatile environment. Click the link in the show notes or visit www.itassolutions.co.uk and click on our events page for more info and great content.

And if you want to reach out at any point, tell us what you liked, tell us what we can do better, then feel free. Just email us at cfopodcast at itassolutions.co.uk. Thank you and speak soon.