welcome to cfo 4.0 the future of finance the cfo role is changing rapidly moving from cost controller to strategic visionary and with every change comes opportunity we are here to help you take advantage of this transition to win at work drive your career forwards, and lead with confidence.
Join Hannah Munro, Managing Director of ITAS, a financial transformation consultancy, as she interviews key experts to give you real-world advice and guidance on how to transform your processes, people, and data. Welcome to CFO 4.0, the future of finance.
So hello everybody and welcome to this episode of CFO 4.0. My name is Hannah Munro, your host for today and with me today is Andy Baskill, founder of the executive career jump. So Andy tell us a little bit about yourself and how you ended up doing what you're doing.
All right well firstly thank you very much for having me. So I guess very briefly you could break my background down into three sections. So I actually cut my teeth in the finance world so Feels good to be back in the finance ecosystem with you today and dusting off my abacus. So I started off in the finance world because that's what my mum wanted me to do.
So I went and acted as an accountant for a few years. I then had a period of time where I was working in executive search and running recruitment companies and things. And then the most recent part of my experience is I'm the founder of a business, as you said, called Executive Career Jump.
So I'm a career coach, a job search coach, and run a digital platform that helps people work out what they want from their careers and how to get it. So that's what we've been up to.
Fabulous. And you mentioned the abacus. So for those finance directors out there that have moved past the abacus and are looking to future proof their careers, what advice can you give them, especially at the moment when things are a little bit crazy out there?
Yeah, well, they really are crazy. So I think in terms of the future proofing piece, we've got to get finance as forward facing.
rather as possible rather than as backward facing as possible so i think what we're seeing from a demand point of view are boards that are looking for their finance directors to really help bring clarity to not only the current position but what the short to medium term roadmap could look like so the future proofing for me is going to be about being a conduit to
taking businesses forward rather than reporting on what's already happened um and it's also i think finance has got a really key role to play. And FDs need to be thinking about, well, how can I build more agility into what I'm doing?
So whereas the old kind of stewardship of companies was very much about certainty and process and building that kind of incremental change, change is the new BAU now, right? So we're into building financial elasticity. We're building agility. We're making sure that we can be opportunist. We need opportunist FDs. That's where we need to go.
And people who on one side are really comfortable with tech and digitally focused and totally get the importance of a good stack, but equally over index on an EQ and can get into the hearts and minds of their people and their stakeholders. So yeah, we don't need much. We should be fine.
A financial genius plus incredible leadership is what we're after,
right? Yeah, not too much to ask at all, I would have thought. I mean, if they listen to this podcast over the last few episodes, they'll be well set, won't they? Job done.
Absolutely. All you need to do is listen to a few episodes and you're sorted. So obviously you're speaking to both sides, aren't you? You're dealing with both the individuals that are out there searching and those that are looking as well, because I think it's a two-way street. So what advice would you give to somebody that's looking for the right role for them?
What sort of pointers can you give them?
Well, the thing that amazes me about senior people when they're on the job market is how passive they tend to go so people what people need to do is use their business skills on their search you can't it's so noisy out there it's pretty competitive you can't just sit back and hope um that headhunters or a job advert is going to solve it for you so my advice
to your audience if they're going through transition is run it like a project like actually set your day up with a multi-channel approach Have certain activities going on at different times and use your business skills on your own job search. Don't be passive. That's the biggest tip I would have for people.
So what you mean, I think, is being more proactive rather than waiting for somebody to reach out is actually go out there and find
the right role. You absolutely have to. Yeah, you really, really have to. For example, your chances of landing an interview from a job application to a job ad right now is less than 1%. So it's totally feasible that you could send 100 job applications over a month and not get a single interview. So you've got to be doing more than that.
You've absolutely got personal branding activities, finding ways to add value to your network and pay into the ecosystem that way, getting comfortable being uncomfortable on things like LinkedIn and getting into the content world and appearing on, you know, podcasts and things like this to help elevate your personal brand. That's the game. That's what people need to be doing.
Absolutely. And I know we've got potentially a podcast coming up on personal brands. So for all of you out there that don't know what personal brand is, and perhaps how to talk about it, that's definitely something we are going to cover, because it's becoming more and more important. So how do they find that?
Because it's not just about the right, you know, a role, is it? It's about finding the right role for an individual. So is there any advice that you could give those out there looking for how they find the right organization for them?
Well, I certainly think where people maybe get misunderstood on all of this is people tend to focus way too much on package and product and nowhere near enough on the actual culture and the leadership team in particular. So we always say pick a leader, not a job.
If you pick the right leader, you can pretty much get around whatever business problems there are because you've got that chemistry trust and that good fit in place. But people tend to join businesses and then ultimately leave their boss. So my number one tip is to get a really clear idea of what type of MD or director gets the best out of you.
And then to go to market with that profile in mind, rather than getting too hepped up on brand or too hepped up on product or whatever it might be.
Go and find yourself somebody that's going to work well with you and empower you, because that's the number one It's the number one indicator of job fulfillment and success is that relationship between the FD and their direct boss.
And I think there's not enough talked about that, is there, in terms of how do you build a great relationship there? And I guess a lot of it comes from starting with the right person in the first place. You know, do you guys get on?
Yeah, well, interviewing is a two way process, isn't it?
Or should be. Whether it is or not is a different question, but absolutely, it definitely should be. And is there any particular questions or particular things that people should ask during that process?
Well, in order to assess whether or not it's the right person for them, yeah. So my preference, and this works really well for CFO, FD type world, is to try and have some kind of working session, okay?
So rather than this kind of, we both sit opposite each other and I kind of over-egg my experience and you kind of over-egg the opportunity, and maybe at the end of it, we decide to work together. And that kind of status quo, that paradigm that senior high is happening at the moment, way better would be to say, do you know what? I'll sign an NDA. Right, good.
Now that's out of the way. Let's get on the whiteboard, Mr. MD, Mrs. CEO, whoever you're interviewing with, and let's put your biggest challenge, what's keeping you awake at night, right now, up on the board, and let's work on that problem together for the next 30 minutes.
And you'll get so much more from that because you'll really get a feel for how each other interacts, whether the chemistry's good, whether you're able to actually add value to what they're trying to do and solve the problem, and if you're thinking in similar ways, you'll be able to test some of the stuff that you know because people talk about you know particularly
when they're hiring fds and cfos they talk about that they've got an appetite for transformation at interview but then when you get in there sometimes the appetite might not be the same as what they showed at interview right if you get into right yeah i'm sure you see this all the time
it's so true yeah
yeah whereas if you get into more working sessions it's far more indicative of and insightful and particularly you can put other people in the room Because you can also watch how your boss to be interacts with those others and also how those others interact with them. And that will give you a real clue.
Because even if they're putting on all the airs and graces for you, you'll be able to pick up some of that energy in the room and get a feel for the real culture rather than the values that are painted on the wall, right? Yeah.
Yeah, because the two don't always mesh. And you're 100% right that it's the leader of that organization and your direct superior that's the one that actually defines it. And you do hear stories of where those relationships, brilliant, both brilliant people, brilliant CFO, brilliant CEO, they're just not well matched.
And I have to say, there is something in that, isn't there? And I think in our previous conversations, we talked about marriage counseling for CEOs. I think that's such a great concept.
Yeah, I think that would be an amazing episode, as I said to you before. At some point, if you could get a CEO and a CFO on here and you could do the marriage counselling bit and set up a safe environment and get them into
it. A fully online but very safe
environment. Apart from the fact hundreds of people are going to download it and listen to it in the gym tomorrow. But yeah, exactly. Yeah,
absolutely.
Why not? So yeah, it is super important. And it's not about capability. it's about chemistry and there's no, you know, everybody has the right counterweight. And actually a little bit of tension, a little bit of diversity of thought is really important.
Like we don't want to get into, you know, mini me's and you know, that, you know, part of the diversity problem we have in boardrooms is the fact that people hire people like them. So it's not about hiring people like you, but it's about hiring people that get the best out of each other to solve problems. Like that's where it needs to go.
absolutely and I think that's a really key point is you know they say in you know marriage opposite attracts or the same thing can happen in a CFO don't necessarily look for you need somebody you can you can talk to and you can communicate well with but actually it doesn't necessarily have to be the same personality type either because sometimes the opposite is
incredibly useful
yeah as long as you as long as you cross on sorry as long as you cross over on values I was going to say as long as you cross over on values and thought process, then you'll be okay. But anyway, sorry to over-talk. It's difficult when we're not in the same room, isn't
it? Oh, that's it. You know, the joys of COVID. I don't think it's going to change anytime soon.
No, it's not.
So we talked a lot about, obviously, the trends at the moment. So are you seeing any other trends in terms of types of FDs that are coming through or different types of roles that FDs are transitioning into?
Yeah, well, certainly, you know, FP&A has been the big thing over the last 10 years, I would say, a much greater focus on insight-led, more commercial finance seems to have been the order of the day. But obviously there are elements of that which can be replaced by some tech. And so I think that's what we've seen.
But I think where we're going, as I said earlier, is into people who can operate at the convergence of people and technology. That's what it's going to be all right. And that agility, you know, there's this word, which I don't know if you've come across in your work enough, that entrepreneurs, so they're kind of entrepreneurial, but they work in an organization.
That's where we're going. Have you come across that word or is that?
I always talk about entrepreneurial thinkers and, you know, people that think in an entrepreneurial way, but that's a brilliant, you know, that haven't heard that phrase before. That's a great way to describe it.
Yeah. Yeah. So entrepreneurial FDs, I think that's where it's going to go. I mean, what are you seeing with your clients? What's your take on where the industries go?
Do you know what I find really interesting is people are recognising the value of finance, I think a lot more. And particularly, we always see it when we hit, you know, recession, recession's a very strong word, but we hit financial, challenging financial circumstances that actually much more focus comes on to finance.
And what we're seeing is a shift maybe in the types of role, because even those smaller businesses are wanting more experienced input from, you know, from finance directors. They don't necessarily want somebody full time They can't afford them, quite frankly.
But what we're seeing is even when we're implementing transformation projects, we'll have And it's great because you get loads of experience for one or two days a week. So we're seeing a shift in the types of roles and the types of FDs that we're speaking to. It's not just necessarily people in a role full-time.
We are actually seeing a shift in part-time FDs and things like that as well.
Yeah, great. And I think when we first spoke, I mentioned we've helped a couple of people set up on-demand FD-type offerings that are proving really... popular, particularly with SMEs who maybe don't need a full-time CFO, but want to access that strategic advice, that cash advice.
I guess the other big shift as well has been the whole, the tech element, not just in using the tech, but the way that's brought a cultural change to finance. So, you know, the thing about tech companies, particularly in scale up is they're not about profit. They're not about EBIT.
And so that in terms of traditional finance, which is very, EBIT orientated, you know, these tech companies, they're trying to spend the money as quickly as possible. It's all about, you don't want to hold cash. You want to get the cash moving and you want to get the cash into revenue generating assets like products, territories, people.
And so the EBIT number has gone from being the most important number that's reported every year to the new tech world where it's like, well, if you sat on cash, you're failing.
So again, we need this new kind of like braver, fd mindset this entrepreneurial thing again of fds that help spend money rather than increase the bank balance like that's a total you know pivot isn't it in terms of the fundamentals yeah prudence was what the first thing i was taught uh when i was training right prudence that's what finance is wow yeah there's still
some prudence in there for sure in terms of reporting but you've also got to go you've got to be quite you know risk averse it's not really going to fly. You've got to go and play some bets and back yourself and leverage the data and push it forward.
And I think that's really interesting because certainly I think there's a different kind of CFO that is in a startup versus one that's in a well-established concern because they have to be in terms of the skill sets. And I think, like you say, the mindset that's needed.
I was having a really interesting discussion with somebody about, is it the CFO's job to say no to things? And I was like, not at all. Like at the point they're saying no, it's way too late. They should have been involved at the beginning of the conversation.
And I think that's a massive shout out for those that are looking to go into new organizations is, well, it's not just about your CEO, it's about the rest of the leadership team. Because if you're going to be their barrier and their gate, then that's always going to be quite a challenge.
a negative relationship whereas actually if you've got a team that you can integrate with and have those conversations at an earlier stage you then become that enabler rather than the barrier that they're always trying to get round or over depending on the what it is that you're trying to deliver
amazing point yeah it's a whole um cultural shift away from the finance police
yeah that's it isn't it control yeah control without being controlling as it were so
there's a blog in there somewhere which
is Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a whole nother podcast to be really honest. So what sort of trends are you seeing at the moment in the current job market with the clients that you're speaking to it, at least?
Yeah, well, the trouble with the senior job market is very quiet. So what's happening is that the majority of CFOs and board level people in general simply aren't moving. They're not leaving the jobs they're in. And I kind of totally get that to some extent, because You know, a lot of people want to help their team through this current crisis.
And also, it probably feels quite risky to people to be moving jobs. But the knock-on effect of that, where that is providing a bit of a challenge, is that we're then not getting the kind of normal merry-go-round of, you know, CFOs leaving one business to go to another and then somebody going to fill that gap.
And then, you know, them bringing their own flavor to the department and the transformation that follows and engaging with new vendors, hiring new people, bringing in consultants, you know, The ecosystem is just a little bit crystallized in time at the moment.
So what we're therefore seeing as a result is more and more people turning to interim opportunities, consulting opportunities, or even setting up on their own. We mentioned the on-demand thing earlier, but there's been a load of these kind of situations whereby people are just deciding, well, if I can't find the work that I want, then I'll go and create it.
And they're doing their own thing.
Yeah.
But that's exciting, isn't it? Because one of the things I love about my job is I get to work with lots of different businesses and help them through the exciting part of the journey. And then they get to go away and do their bit that they find really exciting, which isn't normally the technology, but that's my bag.
So, you know, what kind of benefits are there to that sort of role?
Well, doing your own thing.
Yeah, you know, because I guess it's a balance, isn't it, between having the stability and, you know, consistency of working with one organisation and just focusing all your attention on it versus perhaps something that's a bit more challenging, a bit more ad hoc?
Yeah, so the pros and cons. So the pros are definitely variation. The pros is definitely that you're answerable to yourself. And a lot of people get worn down by politics over there. the period of their career, right? And the great thing about, you know, working for yourself and being empowered in that way is that you no longer have to be political.
You can go into organizations and be very objective. Some of the challenges are, it can be a bit feast and famine. So you can kind of go and win some stuff, deliver it. And then, ah, now I haven't got anything and I need to go and win some more stuff again. And so you can get this kind of peak and trough thing going on.
And also I think one of the downsides, and certainly, how i feel i mean which there's just me and a couple of other people involved in executive career jump at the moment um and what i'm not and they're kind of company owners in their own right and freelance coaches and stuff but you don't get to take coach people through a cycle or manage people through a
full cycle and you know develop talent through a three to five year kind of program and see somebody that used to be here go all the way through and end up being up here. And that kind of more ongoing shot to the arm that you get for taking something through for a full transformation.
You get to play your part in it, but that's potentially one of the downsides. So there's pros and cons, I think. I don't know. What do you think? You're in that world.
Yeah, so I find it's interesting. I think it depends on the individual. Some people love the independence and they love the variety. And I think that's one of the questions that, you know, CFOs have to ask themselves is, you know, do I really want to immerse myself in an organisation, go on a journey with them for two to three years?
And if you're there for one day a week or one day a month, you're not able to necessarily get in that deep into one organisation. And I think that's maybe the question is, do you want to go on a journey with them?
with a single organization or do you want to to work are you the sort that wants more smaller shorter sharper projects where you make a difference but you don't necessarily invest yourself to that level and you know what what does that look like for you as an individual that you know that would be I'm very much I like to go in I like to make an impact and
then I like to move to my next you know my next one but that you know that that's why I've done this for 10 years I love it I wouldn't do anything else so I think that's perhaps one of questions that people should ask themselves
there's a bit of self-awareness that comes in there as well you've just displayed that self-awareness and I think you know people need to be honest with themselves don't they around that stuff yeah
Absolutely. And it's that balance between, you know, and a lot of it comes down to security as well. You know, can you cope if, you know, things, you know, you don't have a lot of work on for a few weeks, a few months. Some people are lucky enough that they've, you know, they've had great, great careers and they have that kind of security.
But, you know, there is something to be said for working with people in organizations. And that's one of the things and the reason I built, you know, I set up is I love working with the team. And that's the best thing now is that I actually get to work with a team of people. but on individual projects.
So I totally have the best of both worlds with what I do.
Yeah, sounds it.
So in terms of what you do, how does it work? Because you're a career coach. Tell me a bit about the journey that you take the individuals that you work with on.
Yeah. So the process initially is what most people have to spend some time on is just getting some clarity.
So clarity on know what kind of leader is going to get the best out of them in particular like we spoke about earlier what they're trying to achieve the kind of appetite they have for risk what's important to them right now you know pressing and pulling on some of these independent versus employee type arguments and trialing a few different things to just get a
bit of clarity around what the goal is yeah then once you've got that goal in play you've then got to get some foundations in place so You need an optimized LinkedIn profile.
You need a couple of different CVs in this day and age, some that you use for job adverts, some that you use for networking, some that you use for temporary, some that you use for permanent. We have a whole suite of job search materials, which you believe now is what's required. So we get those foundations in play.
And then the majority of the early work before we then start going to market is around helping people with their personal value proposition. So getting people comfortable telling their story, articulating the pain that they solve and the value that they add. And then we go on a multi-channel type approach, right? So we're doing content management and personal branding.
We're doing networking. We're doing advocacy. We're doing building better and stronger headhunter relationships into interview coaching, presentation skills, and nailing the offer. So it's pretty comprehensive. Like the people who I work with in my kind of highest touch program it we're kind of we're working intensely together to solve this challenge to get them from a to b
and that that i think people underestimate you know the amount of work that goes in and to to finding the not just a job but the right job for them to be very fair
it's a complete minefield out there at the at the moment and uh i mean job searching has changed and the sad irony is is that you're actually you're most attractive to the competition when you're in post And so, you know, the people who are on the market start to realize, ah, all those people that were trying to poach me whilst I was down the road and now
I'm available, I can start tomorrow. And, you know, I'm probably more flexible on package than I was previously and all this stuff. But the attract, you know, competitors want to poach from other competitors because they damage them whilst benefiting themselves. And we do a lot of kind of advocacy work to try and change that mindset because I'm not sure that's right.
But anyway, that's kind of the viewpoint. So, You've got a lot to battle through and a lot of self-development to do to be able to sell yourself and take advantage of creating opportunities. It's nuanced. It's really, really nuanced. It's really, really nuanced. Lots of different techniques.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's the piece, isn't it? It's so much harder when you haven't already got something to fall back on, as in you're not in a current role, than when you're actually looking and you're interested and you're eager. And I've seen that quite a bit. It just seems like a crazy situation, to be fair, for people to be in.
Okay, very quickly, I'll share the data with you on it. So prior to being a full-time career coach and running the online part of it, I worked in executive search, as I said. And we went through and looked at our short lists.
And what we did is we got everybody to rank the candidates one to five from the most keen at the top to the least keen at the bottom. So at the top was usually somebody who was out of role or about to become out of role, who desperately either wanted or needed the opportunity we put them forward for.
At the bottom was somebody who we literally had to wrestle to get on the phone, who wasn't really bothered whether they got the job or not. who we had to bully into going to the interview.
And the frustration when the data came back and actually proved our suspicions, that you're only, so everyone should have a 20% chance, clearly, if there's five of you, of getting offered the role, if keenness isn't a factor, if eagerness isn't a factor, right? The most keen candidate for a senior role only got offered it 5% of the time.
Wow. The least keen, so the person who didn't care whether they got the job offer or not, got the job offer 40% of the time, right? So you're eight times more likely to get the job offer if you don't need it or want it. And we're like, well, how can this be? And then you start sitting in interviews and watching these things play out.
And actually, it kind of makes sense, because when you don't want the job, you interview so much more authentically, so much more honestly. You ask far more probing questions to challenge. Yeah, you're just a lot more open. You'll say, oh, well, I left that job because I screwed up the strategy.
People will literally talk because they have no emotional attachment to the result at all. Whereas the over keen ones are over talking, a bit pushy, overdoing the follow up, all of that kind of stuff and lost their gravitas in that moment. So it's a cruel irony that that dynamic exists in the senior market.
And we try as much as possible to help reprogram and help people position themselves in a way that cuts through that.
And so what you're saying is it's not actually the interviewee's perception of that individual because they're in a role. It's actually the way that the person being interviewed is actually acting that is creating that dynamic.
It's an interesting point. I think it's a combination of both, but weighted more towards how we act when we desperately want something. Like, I'm not going to use the obvious dating analogy because it's different, but...
Well, I don't know. We talked about marriage counselling. You know, CFO dating is the next episode, to be
fair. Yeah, maybe it is. But yeah, you know, over keenness. Equally on the flip side, so I back a business called Career Coaching Consultancy. It's a guy called Neil, 30-year-old guy who helps people early career. And interestingly, at early career, it's the complete opposite.
So the people who are most keen are really attractive to the leaders because it's like, yeah, this person's got some real energy that I can work with and I can mold and they've got all this stuff I can't teach them. And this is the kind of rhetoric that comes out. You get into the senior world, totally different.
Last thing they want is anybody who's over keen and over eager because that worries them and they lose their appeal and gravitas in that moment. So as I say, very nuanced.
Wow. Do you know what? That's an amazing piece of insight. And I think anyone that is looking for a role or considering shifting should definitely take that on board. So if there is any of our listeners out there that are looking for some help, perhaps finding the right role or getting in front of that right person, how do they get hold of you?
What's the best way to get in contact?
Yeah, so I live on LinkedIn. I think that's where we crossed over in the first two weeks as well. I literally live on LinkedIn. So it's Andrew McCaskill, M-A-C-A-S-K-I-L-L. But you can also find us at the website. So www.execcareerjump.com.
Fantastic. And for those that are listening, we will pop your LinkedIn profile in the show notes so that everyone can get directly to you. So any last sort of top tips or thoughts for those that are either thinking of looking at a new role or in the job market at the moment?
Yeah. So my final thought, something that's working really well is to try and reframe your time whilst you're on the job market to help with the mindset piece. So my biggest concern at the moment is the mental health side of what people are dealing with whilst they're in transition. And there's a bunch of things you can do.
Like some of the FDs we've been working with have been offering their time up as a mentor to young people in finance. And that's been superbly successful. And as always, with any kind of mentoring, actually the mentor's got as much out of it as the mentee, yeah? Yeah. Because you do, and it's kind of, it feels good to be using your skills, to be helping.
As I said earlier, you've got to have a multi-channel strategy, get some structure, but do some nice stuff, like just pay into the ecosystem. I'm a true believer that the more you pay into the ecosystem, the more it's going to pay out anyway. So look to add value rather than extract, and I think you'll be well set.
That's an amazing, so give back and you'll find the right role for you.
Yeah, it's about attracting in the right opportunity rather than chasing it.
Yeah, that is a brilliant note to end the podcast on. Thank you so much, Andy. That was fantastic. And it's been wonderful having you on the podcast.
Oh, I really enjoyed it. Thanks for having me.
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