113. Stepping away from a traditional Finance mindset with Chris Ortega

Join Hannah Munro , managing director of ITAS , a financial transformation consultancy , as she interviews key experts to give you real-world advice and guidance on how to transform your processes , people and data . Welcome to CFO 4.0 , the future of finance .

You will have probably seen his videos on LinkedIn , amongst other things , but really excited to have you on , chris . Thanks for joining me .

Then I quickly realized I really love like the forward thinking , like finance side which was coming from my undergrad .

So I moved over into FPNA , had the opportunity to work at a enterprise level publicly traded pharma drug development company and then spent probably like the next six to seven years of that just like building and growing kind of like SaaS businesses .

So most of my background has always been in like high growth entrepreneurial SaaS based businesses seed startup scale up to enterprise level SaaS companies .

And most recently I was part of a marketing platform company international marketing platform company , built that all the way up and then actually led it to acquisition to SAP , which was a really , really great opportunity First time in my career to like build and shape something completely from scratch and to have a pretty big exit with SAP .

And then , hannah , i got to this point in my career where I was like man . I've built and shaped so many different organizations . I know what financial transformation means . I know all the good , the bad , the ugly that comes along with it , and I felt that there needed to be a fresh perspective on finance .

There needed to be a fresh perspective on finance , fpna and the office of the CFO .

So earlier this year I started fresh FPNA and I've been , you know , building and shaping the business , having an opportunity to work with a lot of different global clients and really , really having the opportunity to write the legacy of what it means to be a finance FPNA and CFO professional of the future .

So , yeah , that's a little bit about me and my journey .

When you look at the office of the CFO , right , our value proposition we were the budget keepers , we were , you know , the score keepers , we were the finance gurus of the organization , right , and that was our value proposition . That's what we , that's what we brought .

We were responsible for the financial due diligence and accuracy of the financial statements and the financials of the business . That was our mantra . Then the pandemic happened .

And then , when the pandemic happened , i remember being at a high-growth technology company and the CROs , the chief marketing officers , the chief sales officers they were like look , there's so much uncertainty , there is chaos . We don't know how to manage and navigate this uncertainty and change . And that's where this office of the CFO stepped up .

We stepped up to navigate the business . We were able to turn complexity into clear , concise conclusions . We were able to collaborate inside the business . We were able to build a connection right . We up-skilled the office of the CFO . And now you look at this next phase . We've set that new baseline .

The business now is no longer going to go back to the , to the CFO to be the record keeper , to be the scorekeeper , to be the one that's just only setting the numbers , to not be collaborative , to not be technology adopters , to not be great collaborators or communicators . We set the new baseline , so let's in that this next phase going forward .

It's a huge opportunity for the CFO to interest themselves inside the business right . One of the most important aspects of the office of the CFO going forward is our business acumen and understanding right . How do we turn business pain into productivity ? How do we support the operations ?

To me , i think the new definition of the CFO of the future is clarity for operations . How do we bring that clarity in the business ? How do we collaborate , connect , bring clarity in an ever-changing and uncertain environment that we're in now ? So to me , i think those are the different phases and the different evolutions of the office of the CFO .

But a lot of the conversations that we started I think about the conversations I was having with people before the pandemic they knew where they wanted to be , but I don't think any of us in finance and in finance transformation figured we'd have the last couple of years that we had in terms of the degree of change that we've seen . It's been absolutely bonkers .

In terms of how much finance has moved in this period . And what I found really interesting , what you said . I think that clarity is the challenge , isn't it ? Because there is so much uncertainty and the ability to shift and to gather across . And you said operationally .

But I also think there's a big strategic element to what the CFO needs to do and needs to bring . And , sitting next to you , when you have to go toe to toe with that CRO and talk to him about where he should be focusing his efforts , you've got to have that strategic hat on .

I've always built my teams to not just be financial professionals but great finance business partners . I've always done that And you've seen it in pockets . And when the pandemic happened and people were going remote and industries were there , there was so much just globally that was happening .

And when you see that those CROs and those revenue driving functions inside the business and said , look , this is uncharted territory for us , those CFOs that were already preaching the new philosophy and leaving new legacies , they were like it's our time And to me I think this is our 15 minutes of fame for the office of the CFO to modernize , to leverage technology

, to look at what I look at as the six pillars of financial transformation , which are people , process , partnership . Those are the foundation pillars . The scaling pillars are going to be platform , performance and profit .

These are really the framework and how modern CFOs can really take this idea of transformation and take this idea of meeting this new business demand in a framework that they can go implement inside their organization to upskill that value proposition . So it's our 15 minutes of fame .

If finance don't get hold of the analytics and the data and the , like you say , the operational capability of the business and tie that into the strategic goals , then there is somebody that will step in and do it , because you do see that kind of that crossover between , like you say , the CRO , that C-suite , looking at revenue and profit and strategy , and there

are other teams that are chomping at the bit to have a part in the analytics piece , like I've seen teams that you know . Marketing teams will have analytics and components , the sales teams will as well .

So unless we take ownership of that data , of that capability , and stop spending our time entering you know , like entering spreadsheets onto a system and spend time analyzing where we're spending , then you know it's a small opportunity and a small window to take advantage .

Right . When I look back at my career in finance and leading high growth organizations and building them up , i always my key stakeholders were always revenue , they were always operations and they were always HR . Right . Why were those always my key stakeholders ?

Because you're dealing with people , you're dealing with the operations of the organization and how you're driving business . Right . And to me , i think , like it is , finance is poised right , we're positioned inside the organization , that we see all the different stories and all the different end results that come along in all of those suites right .

Like when I partnered with the CROs , right , like I was always upstream and proactive in looking at deals from lead to opportunities , how they convert to pipeline . What are we learning ? Because ultimately , at the end of the day , what that's gonna give me is cash , revenue and upsell , cross-sell and incremental ways of building that business going forward right .

So to me , how we capture this moment is we got to move upstream . We got to go move and , like , entrench ourselves with these business partners and go learn those businesses .

It's so surprising to me that most CFOs like , if you ask them what drives your business and how your business makes money , there's a lot of CFOs that are like , uh , like I know the industry that we're in and I can quantify that . But really , like , do you know your customer ? Do you know what it's like to be a solutions architect in a sales role ?

Do you know what it's like to be a SDR in a marketing organization ? Right , like , there's so much opportunity for us to go further upstream and be proactive in building those relationships . Cause , ultimately , like , what we can do is build the connections downstream . Right , we can take the CRO , all their sales strategy , all their plans that they want to execute .

How does that bottom ? how does that drive bottom line results around revenue , expenses or cash ? We can connect the dots and we're right in the center for those different functional areas to help build that community , to connect those dots .

You know , gold at the end of the day . And actually now there is a hundred percent of conversations to talk about how we embed finance in operations , in sales and marketing , in in those different areas and support them to drive better processes , better data , better visibility , cause then you know , finance gets to step back and go .

Actually , i don't have to deal with what you're giving me , i'm driving it , like you said , upstream , i'm actually driving the results and the way that I want to and taking that board , which is super excited , is it like ? I think we could geek out on what the future of finance could look like for absolutely hours , which I'll try very much to do .

So , um , let's talk a little bit about partnering , Cause obviously partnering and business partnering has been a key part of how you've been , um , how you've worked in finance , particularly with those high ground growth companies . What does good business partnering look like to you ?

The first one is trust and the second one is , like ,

competency . Right , and historically , most finance organizations , most CFOs , most accountants , most finance FPNA people , when they go about building that relationship , the first element and this is the wrong way to go . So , for all those listeners , don't start with this pillar . We go with the competency Right .

We want to show our business partners that we know our Excel , we know our US gap , we know our IFRS , we know our policies and procedures , we know our numbers . So when we go back building that relationship with the business , with our business partners , we're leading with competency Right .

We're going to that chief marketing officer and saying , hey , by looking at this , uh , by looking at your budget and actual comparison , you're over budget about 15% . Can you explain to me in this spreadsheet of why you're over 15% and what this looks like in the future ?

Right , that that's the wrong place to go , the first place that we need to start is go build the trust inside the business , right . So how do you go about building that trust ?

the first way that I always go back , if there's one takeaway for all the listeners and people looking at this go ask that business partner , that CRO , that VP of sales , that operations leader , what are the problems , opportunities and challenges that you see in your business and how can I serve you .

That is the most important part because historically , find the business has served finance . They have served our models , they have served our policies , they have served our procedures . We need to flip that around . We need to serve the business And when you go ask those questions and you begin serving the business , now you're building that trust .

I've always looked at it as I want to build trust in the business in the trenches , right . I want to build it in in operations . I want to build it when things are not sunshine and the roses and we may be going through some challenges .

So to me , financial business partnership , the cornerstone of it , is built on trust and trust and building on that competency , which , to me , that's an effective way of building a relationship .

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But I had a cracking conversation with the CFO and he said look , my job is literally to help the business make better choices about where they should spend their resource . It's not to tell them no right , it's to go right . If you do this , this is the impact .

But hang on a second , here's a much better place to spend that resource , whether that's people , whether that's money , whatever it is . And I think that's a really interesting mindset shift And , like you said , like the perception of finance is so far away from that end goal in a lot of cases .

So , you know , i love that idea of flipping in that , saying look , how can I help ? What is it you need from me And what are the challenges and problems that you currently have that I could potentially help you with , which is , you know , absolutely the way we should be .

She said we need to shift from CFO know to CFO go right , yeah , that's right , we need to be in that organization because a lot of times , right , and I've worked with so many different professionals and they always work with me And they're like Chris , you're one of the first CFOs I've ever worked with or one of the first finance leaders I've ever worked with

where you actually listen , like there is . There is one . If there's one superpower that a lot of CFOs can take and get out of your technical skills , like everybody knows , you're great at these technical skills . Right , go , be a great listener to the business .

right , go just listen , go have conversations and listen to people like actively , like listen , and to me I think that's like a superpower , because as you listen and as people feel like you're being heard , right Now you can come and better understand . Versus , like , a lot of times in finance , we , we , we solve problems .

Right , like we see a situation happen . The first thing we want to go do is , like , come up with solutions . Hey , business , you need to go do ABC and D to go fix this overrun or the sales problem or this customer retention problem .

Here's the solution is you need to go do versus like being proactive , taking a step back and saying you know what I want to listen to the business . Like what do they see ? Like what are some pains that they're having , again that overall opportunity we have .

Listen to the business pain , then you can turn that into productivity And when you do that for the business , you build great relationships and you build like that camaraderie right . You build that healthy friction inside the organization .

It has to be healthy , It needs to be non-tox , It needs to be done away . So what do you ? how do you define healthy friction and how do you know when it's good friction versus not so good ?

Right , and I think most of the time , and all my CFOs and VP's of finance and finance leaders and you'll probably understand that healthy friction is probably with the sales organization , right , like , most of the time it sits there And a lot of times that I've had that healthy fiction with that sales organization , it's not a lack of both passion , right .

Like I sit across and have the opportunity to work with some tremendous sales leaders , right , the number one thing that I want them to understand is like , i'm here to support your growth , right , but I'm ultimately going to support the growth that's profitable for the business , right ?

So , being kind of like that devil's advocate , of like not saying no to ideas , but like one thing I always love to do with my sales leaders is pressure test , right Where I'm like Hey , chris , we need to go spend .

Like , for example , we need to go spend an extra $50,000 and paid ads because you know we're not getting the marketing traction that we want to get . And I say okay , like , how did you come up with that number ? Like , walk me through the best way that you can access it is like , help me understand how you arrived at that .

Right , like , when you say that question , it denutrizes the conversation , right ? If you're coming from a place of like , hey , i'm seeking understanding , can you please help me understand how you're looking at this strategy , how you're looking at this tactic ? How do you arrive at that ?

Now , you put that business partner not on the reactive , right , you're not coming to them and saying you want to spend $50,000 , but I just looked at your plan and you're over 60K . So , like , how do you going to do that ? Right , like , help me understand .

And then , when you start to connect the dots on those , then you can help them connect the dots and say , okay , i've listened to your strategy , i've listened to your tactics , i listened to some of the metrics and milestones you want to metric .

If we play this out , if we simulated this , here's what could be the bottom line impact that this could have to the business . Right , here's the pros , here's the Collins , here's the short term risk , the long term risk .

You give them that holistic perspective because now you're not the scorekeeper in that business's eyes , right , you're the valued advisor , right , and the holy grill that we're CFOs want to get to is you want them to be able to say There's not a business decision that I make , that I don't go seek the advice and consulting from a finance partner .

When you've got business partners saying that about the finance organization , oh man , you're top 5% , you're a valued advisor . But it starts having those conversations , it starts seeking understanding , then be understood . That is , i think , one of the golden nuggets that I've always approached to handling that conflict and creating that healthy friction .

Sometimes And I don't think this is necessarily a CFO problem , and I think this is one of the challenges , especially with high growth , with SaaS organizations , i see a lot more is that the drivers can be incredibly short term , which you need to have in there , but it's that support .

How does the CFO build a long term shared strategy approach to the value of the organization ? Because , let's be honest , the CFO has always got their eye on the long game . Where are we going to be ? And I think it's helping the wider business to understand that and to , like you say , get behind it and to understand the risks in what they're trying to do .

Because we're in the finance organization , right , we've seen a lead come all the way to a sales cycle , a sales cycle to a closed contract , to an implementation project , from an implementation project over to your client success , to a customer that you've had for 10 years . Like , we see that entire journey right . So that's where we're really .

We are well positioned because now we can connect the dots to that organization , right , yeah , you want to go run this . Okay , like let's fact pattern this out , like let's go through and what this will look like .

And I think to me , like that's one of the greatest strengths of CFOs , is like we're able to go in the marketing organization , we're able to go with the chief technology officers , we're able to go to the CEO And here's the story , right , here's that journey , here's that what that can look like in the next six , eight and 12 months .

But we also have to be realistic , right ? I think a lot of times , organizations spend , and some organizations and some people listen to this right now , hopefully , you're closing down your 2023 budgeting . If not , i hope you're closer , wrapping it up . We have to make sure that we're balancing precision and accuracy in all the advice that we're giving . Right ?

A lot of organizations spend so much time , energy and effort to be precise , which , to me , precision is I'm 95 to 98% confidence of the assumptions and models that I'm presenting versus accuracy is like I'm 60 to 80% directly accurate that it's going to go this way .

Right , we have to be really , really conscious of trying to have 12 , 16 month precision on a forecasting model . Right now , when there's so much volatility , there's so much uncertainty , my question is why would you spend all that time , energy , effort and resources to have a false sense of perception when in two to three months your business can completely change ?

So to me , that's where we have to navigate and push back , because you may have visionary CFO CEOs , you may have visionary CROs that are thinking two , three years out and they want to do this modeling .

I'm like , hey , look , okay , how do we get precise in the next 90 days And how do we continue to have the milestones and the metrics to make those pivot or persevere conversations ? So to me , that's just another point that I would add into that as well is we have to be really realistic about where we want to be precise and where we want to be accurate .

and you're saying 95 , 98 percent , right , so many people are aiming for that 100 percent accuracy and you genuinely have to go actually what is good enough , and and that in finance can be a bit scary , you know we have to sit back and go . Yeah , we it's not perfect .

I think a lot of finance people are secret perfectionists when it particularly comes to reporting . So it's that balance , isn't it , Between speed and precision , and you know ? and also how realistic something is .

hours , all the time , energy and effort from a resource perspective that was spent on a two month budgeting process , right , and now I'm like , hey , this is what we quantified , right , and I won't give the numbers , but it was .

It was astonishing when we looked at it And I said I want to revisit all this when we look at their budgets done in January and February , right . So to me , it's like I'm challenging them to think about because , like when you think about precision , i want to be . I want to be precise in the next , like 90 to 120 , 180 days , maybe the next six months .

I want to have some level of precision of what I'm looking at , right , but where CFOs are trying to , they're trying to be precise in the next 12 months . Listen , go put a dart board on your on your board right now . Both of the darts at it . You're probably as accurate as you could be in there what you're doing with your modeling .

So to me it's shifting that mindset , right . It's shifting that mindset to say why do you want to spend all this time , energy and effort in this one , in this one to three month exercise , that in one to three months , when the business has happened , you're going to throw that out at the window .

You , we need to readjust , we need to be more agile , we need to have that , that agility , sprinkled in inside the organizations to make faster , quicker decisions .

Do we actually know what assumptions we're making about the macro and obviously , the micro environments that we're working within and using that to drive that ? And also , let's not be precious I was speaking to and you know podcast sneak peek for those that haven't already listened to it , but had a fabulous

. I was speaking to the professor of organizational behavior , right , and he was saying that basically , once people have made a decision , it becomes harder and harder to turn it around and say , actually , i wasn't right , i'm going to go do something completely different .

And I think that's one of the hardest things , particularly when it comes to modeling , when it comes to budgets , when it comes to financial decisions , is actually going , it was right . And if , but if I knew what I knew now it's , i wouldn't make that decision again .

And that's that's a scary place for CFOs to be , to say , actually , i'm not , i'm not infallible , i don't know everything , i don't have this magic ball that's sitting on my lovely desk to actually have those open conversations with the business as well .

There's not one time in my professional career where I did a model and it was 100% accurate to exactly what I modeled out . It never happened . So I think like and that and that . That challenges to a point we talked about earlier that comfort zone . Right , we as CFOs have to be comfortable , and that's what I'm getting getting back to the first time we talk .

Those CFOs that were comfortable in chaos and still help navigate businesses , that's a whole muscle that we flexed , right ? We're so used to saying maybe we got to be super accurate , we got to be 100% right . No , you've got to be comfortable in the gray .

A lot of businesses , a lot of industries , a lot of the macro economic , the global things that we're seeing . There's no black or white to it . Get comfortable and find confidence in the gray .

what does it take for a CFO to be able to step out of that traditional finance mindset and to be comfortable comfortable in chaos and comfortable in uncertainty ?

I fought competitively for about four or five years , right , and I was actually like maybe not a lot of people know this , so I'll share something personal , but , like I was an amateur boxer , i had multiple different fights and you talk about getting comfortable in chaos , like being comfortable when , like punches and all this stuff is going on .

It really helped translate to me in business , right , because at the end of the day and my boxing coach taught me this and this is a philosophy that I've always had in business and just pretty much all of my life , right There's only really two options of any situation Either you're going to win or you're going to learn right .

Failure is never an option , because if you learn from that failure , it's actually a learn right . So , like I look at opportunities and , yeah , i feel I continue to fail in my business .

I failed so many times in my career , but I've learned from those opportunities , right , and when I've learned from them , the second thing is I learned from them and , the most important aspect , that CFLs need to do . You need to be transparent . Right Now is not the time for CFOs to fake it . Till you make it , those times are gone .

I was always in say , look , i made a mistake , i was wrong . This is what I learned from it . This is what I'm going to take to improve the business forward , and going forward Right Now , granted those learning opportunities . It wasn't , like you know , multi-millions and dollars and mistakes , but I've had those in my career too .

So I think , taking that opportunity to say you know what , i'm going to have a growth mindset through this , because if I'm going , i'm going to learn from it , the business is going to be better .

I'm going to be authentic , i'm going to be transparent And I'm going to take a mindset that , no matter the situation , we're going to grow through it and thrive through it . We're not going to go through the situation , We're going to grow through it . And to me , that is that comfort level I think comes from .

You know , for me , like that was always something that I've just had in my life Right , like I grew up from a very humble background , grew up in a single parent background where , you know , i had to learn and build and develop myself Right .

So to me , for those CFOs that are looking to take , you got to like go find those opportunities inside the business to get those learning opportunities Right . Like I get questions and linked in and so many people reach out to me and they're like Chris man , how did you get this ? Like , what courses did you take , what books did you read ?

What conference did you go to ? And I'm like it's been none of that . Right , most of everything that you're going to learn . You got to actually go and do it in your role .

Like go find those opportunities , go find those questions , go uncover that pain in your mind that you've been thinking about where it's like , man , i should go partner with a person because I think there's opportunity for us to make an impact on the business . Like go seek those opportunities .

Go find those minimum viable projects , those MVPs where you can start building that confidence . You can start flexing those muscles inside of the uncertainty and building that confidence . So that would be my recommendation . I'm not recommending people go box . Like don't go pick up boxing , or like punching people . I'm not recommending that .

But find those opportunities to build those MVP projects .

We talked a lot about your journey and your philosophy on finance , which I love , by the way , but tell us a little bit about Fresh FPN . You know what are you guys doing over there ? Yeah .

We do a lot of work around demystifying what is financial transformation and help organizations develop the vision , the strategy , the tactics , the milestones and metrics over the next six , eight , 12 and 18 months So that way they can conquer the elephant that is financial transformation .

And then also , as well , we do a lot of thought leadership in the global accounting , finance , fpna and CFO space . I'm always at conferences , speaking and networking and connecting with people . So , yeah , that's a little bit about Fresh FPN And , like I said , our entire value proposition is like we want to bring that fresh perspective on finance .

We have a golden opportunity to rewrite the legacy of what it means to be a FPNA and CFO professional of the future , and I'm so thankful and humbled to be able to support a global community and to be able to do that . And , yeah , that's what Fresh FPN does .

I expect nothing less from being really honest . So thanks so much for joining .

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