Bonus: Full Interview with Martin Alper

Hello. This is your fellow host, mister. In this bonus episode of, you'll hear an interview with former president of Virgin Interactive, martin alper. He sadly passed away in 2015. I interviewed him over the phone on 11/27/2013 for a feature article on Trilobyte and the seventh guest for gamer.no. The article is in Norwegian, but you can find a link to it in the description of this podcast. Also, if you prefer to read a transcript of this interview, you

Hello.

This is Erik calling from Norway, Gamer.no. I sent you an email yesterday. Am I speaking to martin alper?

Yes. You are.

Okay. Do you have some time for for some question right now? Sure. You're busy? Yeah. Thanks.

I've got about I've got about 10 minutes before I need to get into a meeting. So is that okay for you?

Yeah. That that that's okay. I'll just skip right to to what I'm wondering.

Okay.

So, what I was wondering was when Trilobyte was formed, Rob Landeros and Graeme Devine was employees at your place, Right?

Yes.

So, why did you decide that they should form their own their own company instead of instead of letting letting them be in house?

Well, I it was very simple. When they approached me, I said to them, I'm I hear everything you have to say, but you're fired. And this is the truth. This is what I said. And they just looked at me, like, very strangely at what what is going on. And I said, well, you have to you I want to support you. I want to produce this game, but we can't do it inside Virgin because it would be disruptive to everybody else who's working on much less ambitious projects.

Right.

So so the only way that we can do this is to do it from outside Virgin. You have to move out of Virgin and set it up as a separate entity because you won't be able to conform to the rules that we have about production, etcetera, because this is all new idea, new technology, new everything, and it may take longer or it may not work. So we don't want to do it in house

Right.

Where normal games are being made.

But those 2 people were the only 1 from Virgin Rights that came over to

it. Correct.

Yeah. Yes. Yep. But still, the the deal it it it was an independent company. Right?

It was an independent comp yes. They set it up as a completely independent company, but we signed a contract with them before they set it up Yep. For them to produce the game so that we would fund it. So they would have the the flow of money to hire people and to get offices and make it work.

Yeah. And you you should publish the game. That was the deal. Right?

Yes. Not the deal. We would publish the game. Yes.

Yeah. But still, I I would believe that that that would be more expensive than than doing it in house overall because you have to kind of go through another company. Do you have an answer

on No. Not really. Because because it was their company Mhmm. And they were on their own, they had to make or break. Everything was at risk. They no longer had a job.

Yeah. Right.

If they believed so much in what they were doing, they had a very good reason to make it work because it was their livelihood, their job. If they were working inside the company, you know, we could be tolerant. They would still have health benefits. They would still have everything that employees have.

Alright.

But when they're on their own when they're on their own, they have to work.

Okay. So, it was actually some risk you distributed the risks of what?

I think the risk was even.

Yeah, exactly. It happened to be 1 of the the revolutionary games of of the year together with

That's right.

Yeah. And and the CD ROM medium was new. I I can't really find examples of earlier CD ROM games, but if there were

don't believe there was. No. I I think there were many examples of games that were ambitious Mhmm. Using multiple floppy disks.

Yeah. Right.

But putting it on a CD ROM was somewhat revolutionary. Yeah. And Bill Gates used used it used it as an example in 1 of his lectures at Microsoft as an example of what could be done with CD ROM.

Yeah. That's probably a very great moment for all of you, I guess.

Yes. It was. Absolutely.

But another game came out about 6 years no. 6 months later, Myst, which also is CD ROM very very early. Yeah.

That's point.

It happened to to be 1 of the most selling games of all times even though it didn't have animations and live action footage and other quality. Why do you think why do you think that was a winner in this kind of duel?

Well, I don't know if it was a winner or not a winner.

Mhmm.

We had secondary market for the CD ROM version of 7th guest. Mhmm. And in the end, I I I cannot remember exactly how many games we sold, but there probably were something like into a couple of million into circulation. Some were given away as special promotions, etcetera. But, you know, I really can't answer the question. I I don't know. I missed I don't I can't remember who published it. You would know better than me. I don't know.

I know who developed it with science games, but

Maybe I don't know. I mean, I think our marketing was excellent. The anticipation for the game was good. Mhmm. I think that, like, every first generation game that tries to put everything in it Mhmm. Animation, live action, green screen, etcetera, Maybe it disappointed some people.

Yeah. But

It was definitely definitely a beautiful looking game and great innovation.

Yeah. Sure.

Did it that was it a satisfying game to play? Maybe not as satisfying as Myst. Who knows?

No. That that might be the case. I also read that Nintendo signed an agreement with so they were kind of exclusive console rights. Do you know anything about that?

Yes, but I don't think anything ever happened.

No. I'm not

sure that

That's correct. I know some other people have been speculating to that it was just because Sony shouldn't or Sega, sorry, Sega shouldn't have the rights, so they kind of bought bought the rights just for Correct.

To keep

it keep it out of the market. But still, Philips CD I was released as a console, right? You know how that came to be?

You know, that I don't remember. Sorry. You know? No. Which year was this, by the way? You know it better than me because I've published so many games back up.

1993, I believe. Yeah.

'93. Yeah. Yeah. 20 years ago. I can't remember what I did so many deals.

I I'm just I'm just shotgunning with the questions here since you you have have a meeting in 5 minutes or I also read that Twin Peaks was an inspiration somehow, but I can't really see any relationship with 7 guests in Twin Peaks. Do you know anything about that?

Well, I think that Graeme Devine liked the director of Twin Peaks and liked his work as as both of them did. Right. And but what there would be any connection, I don't know other than admiration for the the director's work. I can't see any of that in the game,

Okay. So moving on to 11th Hour. Right?

Sure. No. No problem. Don't don't problem. I'll you know, people can wait a few minutes. It's not the end of the world.

Yeah. Thanks. 11th Hour was kind of a big budget game. I'm not sure if you can call it a fiasco, but somehow I believe Virgin or Trilobyte find it a little bit disappointing.

I did. And so everybody involved in the project found it disappointing. And hard to understand what went wrong. I think there may have been you know, where I think they they put all their ideas into seventh guest in terms of the technology, etcetera, that they had available.

Right.

And 11 eleventh hour didn't really have a strong enough story. I think it or or game plan. I think it was probably we commissioned it. I commissioned it because, obviously, the whether Myst beat Yep. 7 Kiss or not, 7 Kiss was a very strong commercial success for Virgin.

Mhmm.

So naturally, like anybody, we would commission a sequel. Mhmm. But I I I think that no disrespect to Graeme or Rob. They probably failed at creating something that was more compelling than 7 guests.

It wasn't unique enough, kind of.

It was It unique. Yeah. It was just a me too again, you know, and I think people were expecting so much more and they didn't deliver.

Right. In the end, 11th Hour was it wasn't a total fiasco, but almost all subsequent project was really the sale disaster, I believe, such as planned destiny, for example.

I don't I don't remember whether we worked with Graeme, Rob, after 11th Hour. Did did we produce you would know better than me. Did we produce a a third game at that?

No. They it didn't. They they I know that they tried. I'm not sure at what point they tried to publish GameStars themselves. Right. They regretted that because they couldn't really do marketing and stuff like So that might actually have been the last game you or Virgin released

I think it was. Yes. And I think I think there was there was some friction in Trilobytes between the 2 partners, a lot of friction. Mhmm. And we said we sensed that or I sensed that, and I don't think we wanted to be involved. And I think it wasn't so much Graeme. Mhmm. I think it was more Rob wanted to be a publisher.

Right.

He always wanted to be a publisher. I think he had a resentment of publishers. Yeah. And he felt he felt that publishers were not necessary and that aims should be published by their authors. And but that was it. I mean, I think that was where it where it started.

Yeah. I know I know that they have a different opinion of how what kind of games they would like as well, if there should be more children related, family related, or or adults related.

Yeah.

So in the end but you at Virgin, did you did you notice the the friction and they didn't speak to each other and yeah.

Yeah. We did we did not yes. I used to go up to Oregon to pick on progress with eleventh hour. Mhmm. And, you know, Graeme was a good friend of mine. Rob and I never really became close.

Okay.

But Graeme Graeme was was very much. I brought him from The UK, and he became a coviant of mine. But Rob, I never formed a strong relationship with, and I believe that friction was generated by Rob more more than Graham. And we didn't want to be part of it.

Yeah. Right. Because the end of the story was, or at least the beginning or the end, at least, was that the board of directors had to fire 1 of them, and kind of Graeme wanted to leave, but they convinced him to stay and Rob had to leave. But were you involved in that in in any way?

No. Not at all.

Oh, I see.

Not at all. Not at all. Okay. This was something that it was at at a distance.

Yeah. Probably. Yeah. I I understand.

Okay. No. I'm not.

Oh, he has a project upon Kickstarter.

Woah. Well, that's that's a long shot.

Yeah. It's long shot.

Technology. Yeah. He's a very good artist. There's no question Rob is an excellent artist.

Yeah. Graeme seems to think that it was the team that the team is missing. When the team is missing, the the intellectual property isn't worth so much. Right.

I I agree. I think the people who buy games now probably don't know anything about the seventh guest.

Oh, that's a that's a problem.

Yeah.

Yeah. But I think I got through the most important questions and almost just 5 minutes past or something. Sure.

No problem.

Thanks a lot. Tell me good. By the way, where where are you now? Are you what what company are you working?

I live in live in California and live in the beach. Mhmm. I haven't been involved in the video game industry for many, many years.

Right.

Currently, I'm semi retired, but my wife has just started up an organic juice company Uh-huh. Making cold pressed vegetable juice, which we distributed throughout California. Totally

different business then.

Yeah. Healthier.

Yeah. Well, thanks for your time and good luck.

You very much indeed and say hi to Norway for me.

Yeah, I'll do that. Bye then.

Take care. Bye.