There's a lot going on right now. Mounting economic inequality, threats to democracy, environmental disaster, the sour stench of chaos in the air. I'm Brooke Gladstone, host of WNYC's On the Media. Want to understand the reasons and the meanings of the narratives that led us here and maybe how to head them off at the path? That's on the media's specialty. Take a listen wherever you get your podcasts. This is Jane Pauley. You might know him as a computer hacker in the hit series, Mr. Robot.
Or maybe as rock star Freddie Mercury in the movie Bohemian Rhapsody. Now with Sunday Morning Seth Doan, meet the real Oscar-winning actor Rami Malek. How hard did you have to work in the early days in being noticed in Hollywood trying to get those first jobs? Yeah, pretty darn hard. Yeah. I...
I just banged down every door I could. You hear a lot of no's. I got used to hearing rejection quite often. And sometimes it was difficult to get up and... step out into the world again and say I can do this and not give up. What were you doing? How were you trying to get people to notice you? I was stuffing manila envelopes with my headshot and resume and sending them to every agent, every studio, every... art school, film school, anybody who was producing, directing, anything.
I did that for quite some time to no avail, and there was one moment where I got a call from a casting director, Maura Casey, and she said, We'd love to see Rami Malek for this role. We'd like to speak with his agent. I said, speaking. And he said, is he SAG and Screen Actors Guild? Well, no, not yet, but I'm sure we can get him there. And they said, and this is his agent? I said, yeah, yes. And who are you? I said, his agent. What's your name?
Rami Malek. And she laughed. She was laughing the whole way through. And she said, all right, kid. Listen, when you get an agent, you can call me. We'll get you back in. I said, Hey, we're already having this conversation. I got a few laughs out of you. Maybe you could just let me in the door and see what happened. And she took a beat and she said, all right, can you make it in 20 minutes? And I said, yeah, yeah.
Where are you? And I just raced over there as quickly as I could. What were you doing to pay the bills at the time? What wasn't I doing? I was catering. I was delivering. I was working at restaurants. I was a busboy. I was told I made a very inferior cappuccino once and got fired from that. Maybe I did that on purpose. I don't know.
Yeah, anything to pay the bills, but... But you charm this casting director and you get cast in Gilmore Girls and that's one of the first real jobs. That was one of the first real jobs, but then it took... You would think that the next one would come right away, but it was still that hustle of waiting and waiting, no callbacks, no auditions. So for me it was quite a slow burn and I think that helped me develop the strength to know that something would always be coming and to choose wisely.
and there were roles that were offered because of my heritage, playing a terrorist, and that was something I thought, I can't just, I'll be pigeonholed, and that's not the way I want to represent my culture. So that would be the easy thing to do is to take those. That would pay the bills to a degree, but I thought...
Wait, just keep pushing. You can do this. Was there a point in your career where you made that choice? You played in 24, the Kiefer Sutherland TV show. I thought I was meticulous. You're more meticulous than anybody. You played a character who blew himself up. In that yeah, I think that was the last one I said enough is enough there. It was just too divisive and It would create an impression of...
by a certain group of people who would be pigeonholed, and I wouldn't want to be responsible for that. I'd rather see, you know, people... People identify with a certain everyman, the struggles of outsiders, outcasts. Everyday human beings who can go on to do extraordinary things. We see them every day, every single day. They're the ones that resonate with me the most. What makes you choose a certain role at this point?
Do you have something that guides you? I got such a great break working with Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks on the Pacific. They put us through this military boot camp. The audition process was so rigorous. They told us to get down to 6% body fat and... I thought, God, if this is one... tiny, minuscule percentage of what those men might have felt.
It was awe-inspiring to me, and I thought if you could begin to tell stories like that that could resonate with so many people, I think there's heroism in so many of the characters I gravitate to. but they also lend themselves to just being ordinary people. I love ordinary people doing extraordinary things. What made you want to do the Emmy?
I remember getting a call right after Bohemian Rhapsody and the success of that from the studio, and they said, what type of film would you want to do next? And I said, believe it or not, an action film. Why? Because I thought there was a group of people who were underrepresented in that genre. People who... might not be acknowledged or, as the film points out, quite underestimated. And to see oneself reflected as
heroic in that capacity is something I don't think we've seen before. I really don't, not for a long time. I love going for the big splashy entertainment, and this is very splashy, but it comes from a guy who is so unexpected doing extraordinary things. Your character is the unlikely hero. It has echoes of Bourne Identity and Mission Impossible in these, but is markedly different in who is the protagonist.
That's a huge compliment. I remember being taken by Storm watching Born Identity and what a phenomenal actor Damon is in that role. You know, that was a subversion of that genre. And I thought, what if we could do that in a different way from this character's point of view who is the last person you would expect to go, you know, take on. the people who stole, essentially, the love of his life that made him whole. he could persevere and find some steely resilience inside of himself.
to do what no one could ever expect possible out of him. Maybe that would resonate with people all around the world. I hope it does. Were there things in the Charlie Heller character that you... Learned from someone, picked from someone. I think it's the perseverance and resilience of the human spirit. I can look at my mom and think about her coming to the U.S. and not speaking a word of English.
taking three buses to get to work with having a daughter at home and two baby boys in her belly as she was getting... getting from job to job to make a living for us. And there's a strength in that and a resilience. And I saw heroism in that. I saw love in that. And what I see with Charlie is when he loses his soulmate, someone who he would do anything for. There is something extraordinary about the power in that when someone could easily
bury their head in the sand. Why did you want to play that type of character? I think I gravitate to these characters who are I'm profoundly alienated, seen as outcasts, different. Is that because there's something personal for you? You're going for it, yeah. I don't know who hasn't felt different in their life, who hasn't felt like an outsider, but perhaps yes.
origin story for lack of a better word is as a first-generation American and we definitely were seen as different to a degree and fitting in was something I worked hard on and never seemed to perfectly adjust to. Your parents went to the U.S. in 1978 from Egypt, Coptic Christians. You spoke Arabic at home. But it seems you also had a very Southern California side of life too. To a degree, yeah.
We grew up in the San Fernando Valley. I think for the most part we truly believed for so many years that that's the only part of Los Angeles that existed. We weren't sheltered so much as I think my parents were trying to protect us from the elements that they perceived as a little bit too liberal. wanted to create a very safe, structured place for us that...
imagination to flourish in a way. You were what, in your room imagining things, playing games? Yeah, I was coming up with characters alone and to the point where I thought something very unusual is going on up there and you have to find a way to utilize that or might take over in a negative way somehow. Was acting... a natural jump? How did that happen? No, my father wanted to... My father instilled this idea in myself and my siblings that we...
came to this country so that you could do something special, to be somebody special. But what he really, I think, wanted me to do was to be a politician, so I went into... debate class and I wasn't very good at debating but I had a substitute teacher who came in and said there's actually this element class that you could do that's a dramatic interpretation or a humorous interpretation of
a play and he handed me one and I dug in and I ended up performing it for him within a week. He said, you memorized it? I said, yeah, yeah, it's just something clicked. And he said, I'd like to enter you into this competition. And soon after, it was the first thing that I invited my parents to come see. And I remember my mom and dad sitting in the audience.
my father being a stoic Middle Eastern man, never showing any emotion, and I could see a tear slowly drop from his face, and I thought, wow, if I could have that effect on him. What could I do with the rest of the world? So that was it. That's what triggered the interest in acting. I think it was the potential to move people, to relate to them, to share something. You're known for your preparedness. You're known for studying the role.
I don't think you could play a character like Freddie Mercury without doing copious amounts of homework. Watching that man over and over was... something that I took pure joy in as well. So that's a luxury when you get to invest so much time in someone that means the world to so many people. It doesn't feel like work. It feels like you're just getting to embrace and imbue yourself with someone's essence over and over. Some could call that research. I called it pure joy.
portraying a real person compared to a character you create. Is there something you prefer? It's an excellent question. I think you have to mix it up. You can't have a career of just biopics, right? Is there one that you prefer or think you're better at or like more? No, it depends on the context of this. I mean, doing Oppenheimer with Christopher Nolan, I came in and played a real character. There's an expectation because... They lived on this planet. You have to honour them to a degree.
in a way that when you're creating a character, there is more of a creative license, I suppose. There were things about Freddie that... I could only assume because of the nature of his privacy that was... enjoyable but also scary because you wanted to honor him and get it right.
you collect all of the facts in order to allow yourself to possibly tell a story about him that you have tethered yourself to and is hopefully as close as you can be because there is a relationship that possibly you've created through some sort of empathy for that. We'll have more from our Sunday morning extended interview after this break. There's a lot going on right now. Mounting economic inequality, threats to democracy, environmental disaster, the sour stench of chaos in the air.
I'm Brooke Gladstone, host of WNYC's On the Media. Want to understand the reasons and the meanings of the narratives that led us here and maybe how to head them off at the pass? That's on the media's specialty. Take a listen wherever you get your podcasts. Winning an Oscar obviously opens so many doors, creates so many opportunities. What challenges are there? Does it set expectations that you feel then you've got to meet?
It doesn't, actually. I've never really set any lofty expectations for myself. I wanted to be just a working actor. That's all I aspired to do. I think that's a success in and of itself. to have a stable working life as an actor. So I would hope that it would open doors, but I never had any expectations. Some of it seems hard to believe, though. I would think that... Once you win an Oscar, you must think, oh my gosh, I've got to keep doing this at this level.
I guess there's a level of a standard you want to hold yourself to, but that would be compromising. You can look at actors who have multiple Oscars, and are you going to keep searching for the next one or the next one? I mean, how much is good enough? I'm pretty satisfied with what I've accomplished. Yeah, I feel really humbled by that moment, very proud of that moment. It was extraordinary.
And if anything else comes of it that can top that, I would be flabbergasted. But hey, I'm open to it. In that acceptance speech, you... wish that your dad, you say that you wish your dad could be there. You thank your mom. Your relationship with your parents is clear in that acceptance speech, which seems to be clear.
I think they sacrificed so much to leave their country, to come to the U.S., and just for the opportunity that their kids could... I appreciate that courage, that conviction, that strength, that humility to do something for someone else. I don't think there's anything greater than that. Do you still get advice from your mom? Oh yeah. Oh yeah, that'll never stop. That's an onslaught of advice. What did she say? What did she say?
I think the Brits say it very well. Keep calm and carry on. How about your brother? You have a twin brother. How did having a twin affect life growing up? It was pretty fascinating because he was much more of the gregarious individual between the two of us, and I was quite shy. I guess that was me busy creating characters alone in a room by myself where he was out.
being more of a bright, shining star, I suppose. It's funny to hear you say this. You would think you'd be the one who'd be the gregarious one out. You're the Hollywood star. Yeah, yeah, no, but maybe I learned a lot from him, so I have a lot to thank him for, but he is an extraordinary human. He's a schoolteacher and has devoted his life to that.
My sister's an ER doctor. I think the parents did all right. The parents did all right. Though they didn't love the idea that you wanted to be an actor. No. I think making that transition to the States, it was... Certain cultures expect lawyer, doctor. You know, we've heard this over and over. there is an expectation to do those things that are stable and are proven, so to speak. And I think...
Yeah, a work in the life in the arts is probably the most unstable thing you could set out to do. You don't still feel like an outsider and outcast, do you? That's an interesting way of questioning that. I don't know. There's an unusual aspect to all of us. I don't know how anyone ever feels truly integrated into the world and settled. Maybe there's... There are some gurus out there that feel quite naturally. and have found a way to acknowledge exactly who they are. I don't know exactly.
where I'll be in 10 years. I don't know who I'll be. I don't know that I'd ever want to not feel like an outsider. Why? I like eccentricity. I like feeling unique. I like feeling different. Are you unique, different, eccentric in your own personal life off screen? I would hope so. How does that manifest itself? Oh, come on. Ask anybody who's ever met me. I'm asking you.
I don't know. I don't know how I could explain it. Is there something you do at home or something that you... I think, yeah, I'm... It's the artsy-fartsy thing to say, but yeah, I like to paint and I like to write poetry. I like things of that nature. Yeah, I don't think anything is worthy of being placed on a wall or in a library, but for me there's eccentric things that I... I enjoy doing that make
Yeah. I guess have to exhaust themselves from my interior so that they can be dispelled in a way if there's not a camera or a stage around. Your breakout role was Elliot and Mr. Robot. What was it about that role, you think? that you connected with, that audiences connected with. What was it about, I think, is that sense of someone profoundly alienated, who was suffering from grief, who is... you're trying to overcome an extraordinary amount of pain.
and some drug usage was involved and someone suffering from a... dissociative disorder, who could, despite all of that. have this inclination to go on and save the world, as he says. He really thinks he can save the world. I think it was just a subversion of of what we see as heroism that seems to be a theme in what we're talking about. Particularly in that you have this gaze, you have this ability to connect with your eyes.
So do you. But it really stands out in Mr. Robot, I think, and in other roles. I don't know. There's something about the camera that can read right inside your soul. And there's no lying to that camera. So I think... Elliot was a character that I felt quite deeply inside of myself through Again, the research I had done, the work I had done. Felt deeply because you did so much research or because it affected you personally in some way? The two. It affected me personally. It was...
There were times in a few roles where I won't say I borderlined on method acting, or maybe more of a chameleonic grace, I would say. going to a place where I could really delve into the inner workings perhaps and take that with me for far too long. Can you give me an example? specific? I would spend quite a large amount of time in solitude prepping for roles like Snafu in the Pacific. going home and imagining what it would be like to sit in a foxhole.
for hours and hours and hours. So you'll just sit in your house for hours and hours and not talk to someone, or how does that play? I did when I was younger to a degree which I thought could become quite damaging at some point, but I wouldn't. I learned as I evolved that I didn't have to go to the nth degree to be able to create. a character that was as authentic. There's just something when you're younger, you feel like you have to give it every ounce of you.
It's not that I don't anymore. I just don't know that I have to suffer so much to get there. It's faster to access now the emotion or the depth or the portrayal. You're better at doing it. Yeah, I suppose it was, yeah, it's... It's a growth. I don't know, maybe there was some pleasure I took in doing all of that work that meant, oh, I had proven something, I had done something, I had accomplished something. It was worth it.
being in front of Hanks and Spielberg and Paul Thomas Anderson, Spike Lee. That's a lot of name dropping, watch your feet. Yeah, to just walk in there with because it is terrifying going into those places that you want to feel like you've done. everything absolutely possible and putting yourself through kind of a sense of mental trauma for what these people have gone through. I mean if you are digging so deep as to deal with the psychological trauma of so many characters that I've played.
It could have some effect on you. At least my psychiatrist tells me that. Do you have a psychiatrist? I think everybody does a bit of therapy here and there. Do... Parts that you play help you resolve things, or do parts that you play dig deeper into things to be resolved? It's a great... It's a great question because I'm constantly wondering about other actors if it's some type of cathartic endeavor for them to be going through something in front of another actor and expelling some...
part of themselves, but I don't think that would be very helpful for me psychologically. I prefer to find ways to separate my personal experiences from... But you can't help but have your life influence what you do in terms of storytelling. I wouldn't want to be so robotic as to not bring any ounce of my life experience. But am I healing myself through it?
I hope not. We were backstage with you after your performance at the Old Vic. One woman said, you make Egyptians proud or something along those lines. Do you hear that when you're surrounded by so many people? How could you not? Yeah. I do. Yes, simply I do. I love connecting with people. It's been the trickiest part of the fame that has come my way. Sometimes you have to walk down the street and keep your head down and not be able to acknowledge people or have the conversations.
that you could have. So you want to have those conversations? Oh, I'm desperate for them. So this is kind of an act when you put on a hat and... It's not an act, it's a survival mechanism. Sometimes you have to get from point A to... point B, but there are other times where you want to share. Most of the time, I love sharing and communicating and learning. How else would you want to go through life? Inside you.
You wish you could stop and talk to these people who are recognizing you in some cases. I still can. I still can. At the height of Bohemian, it was pretty wild. How did you deal with that fame at that point? That was life-changing, I imagine, that degree of... recognizability of fame. It was a very slow burn. In the Marine Corps element of the Pacific, people would start to recognize that. Then Mr. Robot, people would start to recognize that character is someone they connected with.
And there was quite some time in between those two roles. and other roles in between. Kids still come up to me from playing the pharaoh in the United Museum movies. I've adapted to it slowly, but I think the aggressive peak of what happened with Bohemian Rhapsody was, it was quite a lot to absorb. And I can't say that it wasn't a bit anxiety inducing. In what way? There's a level of expectation and adoration and people are I think compelled to... want a tangible connection to you.
that is hard to offer to so many people who appreciate that human being and appreciate the film. But as time and space has allowed some distance from that. it's allowed for more conversation and more appreciation between myself and the world because that human being meant so much to so many people still does. And yeah, it's an achievement and accomplishment. a source of pride that I will always cherish and if other people want to share that with me.
They should, and they can, and I'm happy to. How do you now wrestle with fame and how you balance being recognized for doing what you do? Much more calm about it. It doesn't shake me as much. But it seems you try to keep your relationship, for instance, for the most part, to yourself a relationship. Yeah, this is probably the most I talk about my family. I'm concerned for...
Everyone's privacy. It's not my place to talk about anybody else. I think you're interviewing me and I understand that comes with a level of wanting some insight into a personal world. some anonymity, whatever I can latch onto that still exists, I hope I can take that. Hold on to it for as long as humanly possible. At least a touch. At least a touch. Because. Because I have a memoir to write at some point.
I think there is still something, it may be an antiquated thought, but the less people know about you, I think the more... unique a performance you can deliver in terms of cinema or on stage or in any capacity. I think there's less of an attachment from an audience to who that person really is and what you know about them and you can... you can really see them as two disparate human beings. That's probably the diplomatic way of using it to my advantage.
I grew up being a very private person. My household was very private. We weren't kids that were allowed to have sleepovers. And I remember my dad saying, here I am now going into the private side. I remember my dad saying, well, You want another kid to come sleep over at our house? But you have your own bed. I would have killed for my own bed as a kid. There is that element that's still ingrained in me. I think everyone desires some sense of privacy.
And when that starts to dissipate, you latch on to what's left of it. What made you want to be in this play in London? It is that iconic theater, the Old Vic. If there was any place I wanted to do a play, it would be there. And to be on that hallowed stage is an extraordinary moment. And if afforded that opportunity, how could you pass it up?
I also just wanted to share with an audience what would be worthy of an audience paying the price of admission to seeing something unique and special that I would want to return to day in and day out. and it proved to be just that. How much do you care about what critics say at this point? That production was liked by some and not liked by some. How much do you care about what critics write? I didn't know that, but I guess not much because I don't read them. Really? Yeah.
What did Daniel Craig said on Bond? He said, if you believe the good ones, you gotta believe the bad ones. So you don't read... I love journalism. I read the New York Times top to bottom every day. So, yeah, I'll read reviews of things. But not of things you're in? I try not to. I'm not looking to others for a sense of... what my capability or capacity is as an actor. I know not everything's going to be perfect or liked by every critic, but...
If people are entertained and they stand up and applaud as they did last night, then does it really matter what the critics say? I'm Jane Pauley. Thank you for listening. And for more of our extended interviews, follow and listen to Sunday Morning on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts. There's a lot going on right now. Mounting economic inequality, threats to democracy, environmental disaster, the sour stench of chaos in the air.
I'm Brooke Gladstone, host of WNYC's On the Media. Want to understand the reasons and the meanings of the narratives that led us here and maybe how to head them off at the pass? That's on the media's specialty. Take a listen wherever you get your podcasts.