At Radiolab, we love nothing more than nerding out about science, neuroscience, chemistry. But, but, we do also like to get into other kinds of stories. Stories about policing, or politics, country music, hockey. sex of bugs regardless of whether we're looking at science or not science we bring a rigorous curiosity to get you the answers and hopefully make you see the world anew Radiolab adventures on the edge of what we think we know wherever you get your podcasts. This is Jane Pauli.
What happens when two greats like Elton John and Brandi Carlile get together? Sunday Morning's Tracy Smith found out. You two have sung together before, but why'd you decide to do an entire album? I've wanted to record with Brandy for a long time. She did a track with me on the lockdown sessions, but I wanted to do more than that. I wanted to...
After I did Glastonbury and I finished my world tour and retired from touring, we'd already booked the studio in October to go in and do this record with four of us. Brandy, Bernie Taupin, and Andrew Watt, the producer. So there we turned up in October in Los Angeles with nothing written, nothing knowing where we were going, which is how I wanted it.
She's someone I wanted to work with for so long because I know how great she is. I know how her voice is and I knew how what she's capable of and I wanted to push her more and I wanted her to push me more. So I wanted to make a record that was full of energy. and great songs, and it turned out really brilliantly. I agree. I agree. When Elton came to you and said, I want to make an album with you, your gut reaction?
Was like well obviously my life has been leading me to this moment It just really felt like there was nothing. I wouldn't have stopped to make it happen. I knew that it was gonna be really Really special, really important, you know? I've been in a band with him since I was 13. He just only found out. What do you think it is? Why do you think the two of you hit it off?
Well, we're both really good songwriters. We both love music. We're both really fond of great music. We're both parents. We both love our children. We both have great spouses. We just got the same soon as I met her first time was in Las Vegas when she asked me to play on a track and I did and she came up there and I felt as if I'd known all my life and That started a really wonderful friendship and it's just grown and grown and grown like a
little seedling and into the big palm tree that it is now. And she's part of my life. Our family's holiday together. Joined at the hip. And it's been one of the greatest things to happen to David and myself is to get to know Brandy and Catherine and their children. We've known each other in this kind of like wayward sense for like 17, 18 years. But I think when... we both had kids that's when we really sort of clicked on a more familial level you know and he just really makes me laugh
I really think he's the funniest person and he's so brilliant. Sometimes I'm in awe of him, but most of the time I'm just really enjoying his company because he's really a very special person. I don't think I ever spent any time with Brianna where I haven't had a good time. And we just end up talking about music, we end up talking about so many things. She's not my sister, really. I mean, she's like part of me.
She's such a big part of me and this album has reinforced the fact that she's a really big part of me. And I don't want that part ever to leave and it won't. You know, this is the album that we've done together. She will go off and do more Brandy Carlyle things, but I would love to do something else with her in the future. But meanwhile, we've got to concentrate on what we've done now.
You have this process where you're not even sure what you're creating when you go into the studio. Why did you decide to let cameras in? Well, they weren't manned cameras. They were fixed cameras. And honestly, we knew they were going to be there. Holistically, we forgot about them. I didn't even think of them being there.
Yeah, I never saw one. It was never a conscious thing that they were there. I'm glad they were there because they've captured some incredible moments. And they've captured what it's like to write a song, what it's like to feel nervous, what it's like to feel aggravated, what it's like to feel frustration. and then the joy of something coming together.
We filmed everything and I've never done that before filming a process of writing a song and then recording it is New to me and I haven't really seen the footage But a lot of people say it's really really very moving so And all of my behavior is not so moving. Well, you had some moments of doubt. Terrible doubt. I had so much doubt going into this album. It reminded me of the film of doubt. And I have doubt.
And I did and I was you always feel nervous before you go in to create something Especially when you have nothing, you know written before you go in But because it was four of us involved I've never done that before with those four creative minds coming together. Andrew being the producer, Bernie being the lyricist, her being the lyricist and musician. It was a challenge. And it was a challenge I needed, but it was a challenge I wasn't used to in the beginning with.
If I don't make this album sound as good as I want it to be or I don't write the song, I'm going to be really angry with myself. And so that frustration spilled out onto the camera and it spilled out onto... I was aggravated because... I was pretty sick. I was not no testosterone. I was exhausted But I was determined that we'd see it through but at one point I there was so many
Different things going on that I wanted to quit. You did want to quit? I did want to quit, yeah. You did quit a few times. Oh, really? You can't have faith without doubt. Yeah, because doubt is always good for you. Fear is always good for you. Well, I'm doing my own album. I'm only just letting myself down and I'm probably Bernie but not
These four people, these three people, these other people. So it all came together with a song that Bernie Taupin wrote called The Rose of Laura Nero, who I loved very much as an artist. When we recorded this song, it's like I was channeling her. And it was...
It was like an express train, and it's the first track on the record. And the first three tracks on the record are very uptempo, and they're not what you think Elton John and Brandy Carlisle might produce. They're very like, what? What is this? Once I got that out of the way and I felt a little bit more confident, things started to move very, very quickly.
Bernie's lyrics I had her lyrics at Andrew what I had an incredible band I had everything I needed and once I found myself which took about a week it The next two weeks were fantastic I want to talk about that feeling in those two weeks that were fantastic. But before we get to that, Brandy, you said on the video at one point you thought, why does he even want to do this? Yeah.
Yeah, he told me the things that he's telling you now about wanting to be pushed and stuff like that. And I knew that, you know, Elton spends quite a lot of time on top of the world. You know what I mean? As one of the most important and iconic songwriters of all time. And I spend a lot of time really happy being a happy songwriter and loving live performance and stuff. But I'm not like, I don't sell a lot of records. And there's nothing that I felt I could do to like help.
And I didn't understand at first why he would want to make the album with me. I did understand more and more as I realized how special we were together. I think that he had real vision about it, and it put me in a place I'll never quite come back from. I was 76 years old. I'd done so many records. I'd just finished my world tour on a high, the highest I could ever want.
And so this record meant I just wanted it to be more energized and wanted to move forward. But that's all very well saying that, but you've got to actually accomplish it. But I knew we could accomplish it. It's just I had to find my feet. And once I found my feet, and everyone was so helpful and so wonderful, then it was just like.
You found the best band you found the best collaborators and it just it was so exhilarating And I suppose art has to be painful sometimes and it was very very painful the first week because of my doubt and my behavior towards the other people record was just you know not very nice it was just like but because of I this is a property record I'm not doing one line and she's doing the next we're harmonizing there's never been a harmonized record like this for years and years and years yeah and
Most of the time, Brandy is taking the lead, and I'm doing the harmonies. And I found that difficult. I've never done that before. So it's trying to get to grips with that, trying to get to grips with the phrasing, because I'm such a perfectionist, and so is she.
But I get frustrated if I can't do it the first time. And I couldn't do it the first time. I couldn't do it the third or fourth time. For example, there's a great line in Who Believes in Angels. I said, I had if I had an easy life would I still choose you would I fall on the same knife and she sings would I fall on the same knife and of course I was saying will I fall on the same knife and
Could I get it right? No, I could not get it right. You did. I mean, it fell on the same knife. I can get it right now, but... I was so angry. And it's like people were laughing because every time I did it, I just couldn't get it. It was so awkward. Anyway, it did. And those things we can laugh about now. You can laugh at yourself like nobody I've ever met. I don't know how you do it. It's actually so...
inspiring the way you can have a laugh at yourself, you know? It's a wonderful quality. It's my favorite thing. I have to say, five years ago when I spoke with you, you said, I have a temper that can go from here to atomic in five seconds. And it was kind of cool getting to see that in action. Heart is on his sleeve. Yeah. It's mostly not anger at those. It's frustration at me. But I have to say, when you work,
with someone like her who's so brilliant and so knows what she wants, hits the right note every single time. It's so inspiring. There aren't many people in the world that I could say that of, Stevie Wonder maybe. But with her and being a female and me being male and the two of us coming together, I wanted it to be very special and not just like a...
The silly duet record this one had to have balls if you pardon the expression and it does it have balls to spare That is a perfect does have balls to spare. That was the alternate title. Yeah Or you both, please. I don't know. I want to talk about Angels, that track, Who Believes in Angels. Because as I'm listening, it's so beautiful, so soaring, so moving. But I'm thinking, you two are kind of angels for each other. Yeah. Yeah, actually. I agree with that. I like that.
yeah she's my angel i really just believe that she's she's someone i can ring up to in the middle of the night or ring up whenever i want and she she's there for me and i can talk to her and i think it's vice versa We just fit together like so well, but we should be married really if we were heterosexual would be married, but we're not But I just I can't imagine my life without her
I really can't. It's just like, she's part of my life. It's one of the most joyous experiences. I love my children. I love my husband. I love her and Catherine and their children. And I have wonderful friends. But our friendship has grown into the most beautiful, beautiful tree. And it's it's quite extraordinary how much I love her and her family. I can't imagine my life without you either. It sounds really gooey, but it's really true. It's just some things are just true.
And musically, we bounce off each other. That's the most important. You know, about 76 years of age, I wanted to have someone to inspire me. And sometimes I can't get inspired on my own, but I knew I'd get inspired with her and Andrew, the producer, and Bernie. So we're all sitting there and... inspiring each other. And the result, thankfully, thank God, is exactly what I wanted plus. It's just an album I'm so proud of. I wouldn't change a thing on it.
There are some other tracks I want to talk about. Someone to Belong to. I love that you wrote that thinking of Elton and David. David, yeah. It's a beautiful thing. Well, you know, Elton and me, we were in the studio all that time. And when Elton was having a hard time, it was like even those days we were having a laugh. And they were all coming to a place where...
those days where we were going to have something special. But when David would show up, that was always like a turning point. I would just see Elton's shoulders lower and he would just relax into the day a little bit more and kind of know that his person was there. And I...
I just found it really inspiring, and I know it. I've seen it firsthand, you know, our families and the time we've spent together. In the 90s, when I discovered Elton, Elton and David were the first gay couple I'd ever seen. And I had really...
contemplated that throughout this process, how important to the music David is to Elton and how important the music Catherine is to me. But I just think that that's the love song that David's deserved for a long time. Yeah, he's been waiting 30-something years. Did it immediately click for you? Of course, the lyrics, I mean.
If there's gold in if there's still gold in those hills. I owe it all to you He's not only has been a wonderful husband. He's been an incredible manager He's my career over the last 10 years has been incredible for an artist of my stature an artist of my age and he's completely revolutionized my career and take me to a different place and made me enjoy it so much. And their friendship and their sense of humor is just their comedic timing together is undeniable.
I'm very lucky in the fact that I have the most wonderful husband and I have the most beautiful children and really that's all I need. This album is a plus because I always loved music and music is such a part of my life. But apart from the album, apart from that, I think she would say the same.
We are very blessed in the fact that we both have wonderful partners, spouses and wonderful children. And that means more to me than ever because I don't want to go out on the road. It just trills me with horror. making this record and making other records in the future and doing other things fills me with, yeah, joy. Yeah, you know what I've realized talking about it these last couple of days is like our families are really in this album. Oh, yeah.
Well, the last track on side one. You explain it. Oh, the song You Without Me. Have you heard that one? Of course I've heard that one. My kids are about to go off to college. So you know what I mean then. Yes. And Elton and David are experiencing it too with their beautiful boys. And it's the concept that you...
you have these children and you try not to project yourself onto them and believe that there are many you, you know, but the moment they show you they're not, the moment they show you who they really are and that they're ready to leave you in a way is such a devastating... and proud moment at the same time, it's a confusing feeling. And I just wanted to put that down in a song. It's so beautiful. Every time I play the album to people, they say, play that one again.
It's like can we hear that again because they just so moved by the sentiments of that song and it the sentiments on that song is exactly the same as what David and I going through as well because it eldest son went to boarding school and we took him down and had lunch with him and I came home and I got home and I just burst into tears and David said what on earth is wrong? I said I've lost my boy. I've got a little man now. But I'm just I'll never see that little boy again.
And it was like the most it was tears of joy, but tears of sadness I was mourning the fact that I loved him so much as a little boy And I love him so much as a little man, but I'll never see that little boy again. So that song is It resonates with me so much as well. Just hearing his voice on the phone, he sounds like a man. Oh, the voice is changing. Oh, my goodness. I know. I know what he's talking about.
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wherever you get your podcasts. There's another emotional song, the song that ends the album when this whole world is done with me. And I know you were emotional in the studio singing that. What... got to you about that? Well, I started singing and I thought the verse was really beautiful, but then I had no idea what was coming. And when I got to the chorus, I realized what was coming and I just broke down.
And I sobbed and I sobbed and I sobbed because it's about my death, basically. And when you get to my age and a certain age, I'm in 78 in a couple of weeks. You think about mortality because I want to spend so much time with my children and David and my friends that you want every single moment to count. And so this was a song about...
I don't want to die. I want to be with my children. I want to be with David forever. And so it really got to me. And it moved me so much. And I couldn't do that. I tried to record it that day, but it didn't happen. And I came back the next day, Andrew Watt, the producer said, come back the next day, just do it piano and voice, do it straight away. And I did. I did it live. And that's what you hear. And then the piano piece at the end, I just came in and did that off. That's just as...
I extemporized that piece. And then we put the brass band on to cover it as well. And yeah, it was just, it got to me. I think about. death sometimes but i'm not fixated about it but that the lyrics were so beautiful and i just thought i can feel the cold front i mean god what a line yeah it just like yes
The cold front is coming soon. It's not here yet, but it just got to me. It's such a beautiful lyric. And it's Bernie knows me inside out, obviously. And I think he's feeling the same way, even. I think there's rarely been a Bernie lyric. where Elton and Bernie are feeling the same thing when they record the song. And that resonated with me, that both of these guys were feeling that way. But the way Elton reacted to it, after we had our little cry...
We almost couldn't, he almost couldn't record it just then. Like that was the moment of emotion. And then the next day he came in and he cried on tape. And that's what the recording of that song is. It's a song that's just about as much about Bernie as it is about me. It's about both of us and how wonderful our love and friendship has been and our songwriting, where we've come from, what we've done, how close we've been and what we've achieved and how it would be.
I can't imagine my life without him in it yeah and so it's um yeah it's when you get to a certain age you I don't get I'm not sentimental at all no but suddenly you think I don't want ever. I want my boys to be in my life forever. I want David to be in my life. I want my friends. I don't want to die. Unfortunately, we do. Unless there's a pill around the corner. Probably not you, though. Yeah, no. I think you will.
But that's the thing about you, you're always looking, you don't like to dwell on the past. You're always looking to the future. Brandy wrote that in the, what was his song, Never Too Late. Oh yeah, only dwell on the past for laughing at time. Don't the years make jokes of all of us? Let the whole century slide. That's a beautiful song, too, and really sums up the documentary that you wrote it for.
part of your life that it's not it's not too late it's no it's never too late to change anything if you have the will willingness and the humility to try and admit that you're wrong and do something start again it's the greatest thing in life is that you can turn do things. If you have the humility and the grace to say, I'm going to try. It's not too late. I can do it. I've still got the energy. You can always do things. And I've always been.
lucky in having that kind of nature. I've always come, you know, I've overcome lots of health problems, operations and stuff like that. And I've been the healthiest I've ever been now. And it's just, yeah, you're an Iron Man baby. To hell with heaven's gate. And that's what it says. To hell with heaven's gate. I'm not ready yet. He has the most humility, now that I think of it, of anybody I've ever known. Which that sounds strange for somebody as...
monumental as Elton John, but actually that's his superpower, is he possesses a great deal of humility and confidence in equal measure. And you don't find those things in the same place very often. That's what I was going to ask. You two have been friends for a while, but... Did you learn anything in these 20 days about each other? I think so. Oh yeah.
musically an enormous amount. I mean I just my admiration for her grew and grew and grew and she saw what I could do as a songwriter with a melody up close quickly. And I could see what she could do with a lyric quickly and just her stoicness in the face of horror. I just know I loved her even more than I ever did and I think musically we both learned so much from this album and I'm so proud of it and I'm so proud I couldn't
I couldn't imagine not having done this album. God, it was a challenge. But that's what life's all about. If you don't have a challenge at 76, then... Never give up. Never coast. There are so many artists that coast. They don't make new songs. They just go around and play their hits like I did. I didn't want to do it with this record. I want a new start. I want a fresh start. And she gave it to me.
I learned a lot in the studio with Elton musically. I don't think I'll ever write a song the same. I have a different level of standard for myself quarterly and musically that I didn't have before. I guess personally I feel like our friendship just really grew up in that tiny little room because I saw Elton in a different way than I'd seen him before. There's Elton at the dinner table and then there's Elton behind a piano in the studio.
And that version of this man is in raw form, in carnal human form. And that's the only way he can be. And I would get in a bar fight with anybody over his right to do it. I don't think it's bad behavior. I think it's actually profound behavior and what it takes to make really beautiful art that people can relate to on a visceral level. I was blown away by it. I'll never be the same. The power of it was actually...
really profound. That makes sense. And I thank you for everyone for letting us into that, you know, that music comes, that art comes from the hardest places sometimes. And out of strife. Yeah. And out of doubt and out of strife.
came this record, the first few tracks on this album, are not what people would expect from us too. They're like express trains. It starts with The Rose of Laura Nero, and then it goes into Little Richard's Bible, then it goes to Swing for the Fences, and all three of them are just... At that point, you need a nap. It's exhausting. I wanted people to be surprised, but I was surprised.
how great the uptempo songs were and how she could adapt to writing those songs and i knew she could do it absolutely or is it his idea He was like, no power ballads, no Americana power ballads. He thought that's what everybody would expect from us. And I actually thought about it. And he's right. Like, that is what, you know. Well, she can write the joke in her sleep. And I can write your song in my sleep. But.
Can we write these different kind of songs together? Who Believes in Angels is a beautiful song, but it just goes crazy. It's just a monumental production and it's beautiful. It just goes from... Start like that and then goes right up there and then it comes down like a falling star right at the end with the synthesizers. That ending where you decided to triple it. I love it. We had one rotation at the ending and it was already so long and Elton's like, triple it.
It's fearless. I just feel like you're ascending. You say deep, but it feels like an ascension. So you're on the eve of releasing this out into the world. What is that feeling like? What's that? You're about to release this album to the world. How does that feel? No matter how many times you've done it before. It's nerve-wracking, especially this one because I know it's so good. It's a crapshoot, it always is.
It's like an award show. You don't know what the reaction is gonna be what the results gonna be So, um, I just know that I couldn't have done a better piece of work. Could she have that time? If it sells, it sells. If it doesn't, I can still hold my head up high and say, well, I think this is one of my best works ever. And I think people would genuinely feel that it is a really great album.
Is it what people want? I don't know who can tell I don't know you don't write going to an album I've got to write around what people want. I have no idea what people want. I just know what I want. Yeah, and often what you want ends up being what people want. I've been very lucky like that. Yeah, because it's authentic. I just hope it comes out and that people understand what it means to us and how much we loved making it. And it's just a...
It's an important representation of friendship and coming together of different people. different personalities and the musicianship on the record the band and everybody on it the production the songwriting the lyrics everything is 10 out of 10 as far as you know everyone gave their best plus Can you explain sitting?
There, and you touched on this a little bit, but watching Elton at work, watching those hands on the piano up close, that mind, I'm trying to imagine what that must be like to see. It was actually... nearly unspeakable but I'll do my best he was he was on a piano facing me through a piece of glass and I was on a stool with a guitar and I could see the reflection of the keys and his the lens of his glasses and
The glass was shaking. His glasses were shaking. Everything in the room was vibrating with these compositions that are very heavy-handed. He's a heavy-handed piano player. And it really was, I felt like I was watching, I know this sounds like hyperbolic, but it's not. It really felt like I was watching Mozart, or like one of the great composers.
Stream of consciousness through their entire body create music in a way that I've never seen and It was I was so close. I was like I had a front row seat All I need is a great lyric and everything pours out of me just right i've been lucky to have the greatest lyric bernard torpion you know his lyrics i get even more and more impressed with them as i get older He was so young when he wrote some of these beautiful songs. Yeah, so when I've got the written page in front of me
It's brilliant, and these lyrics work. I just go. It doesn't take me more than 25 minutes before it's done. because I'm so inspired. It's a gift. I don't know how it works. Don't ask me. I really don't. I'm just so lucky. that thing about seeing the beautiful written word and being inspired by that and just thinking, what should this be like? What should this happen? What should the music should be like?
And she's, you know, it was no different with her lyrics as it's been to burn his. He writes to him like he's consuming him. Like you think that he would take this lyric and go home for a few days and have it and get used to it. He's writing it as he reads it. So it's like he's consuming the word as he's writing to it. That's why in this old world he didn't know that it was about mortality until he got to that line, because he was writing it as he was learning it.
And it's just amazing. It's so real time. It's so visceral. It's amazing. It's amazing. And thanks for letting us in. It's spooky. Yeah. It's spooky. So you touched on this. There might be more albums to come. I don't mean to sound greedy. I don't know yet. I can't even think of that. I think she needs to go off and make a... a Brandy Carlyle record after this, and news, everything she's...
learnt from this record and put it into her own songwriting and I just can't wait to hear that because I think it's going to be so special and different because she absorbs everything. She's like a sponge. And I love that about her. She learns, she listens, she watches, and it goes in. And I love that because she's got so much talent. I would love to do another record with her, but it's her time now.
My time is here still, but it's her time to be in the limelight. She's doing a tour of Britain this year. She sold everything out. She came and did two shows last year. She opened for Stevie Nicks at Hyde Park. She tore the place apart. She did a show at the Theatre Royal Drury Lane, which got five star reviews of everyone. The world doesn't know about it yet. She's got to go and conquer the world. They haven't seen it yet. And that's what...
I want. I want the world to see how brilliant this woman is. And I'll be standing there going, yes, yes. A bit like her with Joanie. Exactly the same. Oh, that's amazing. I'll never write another song without Elton, like, right here. He's always going to be with me. I'm Jane Pauley. Thank you for listening. And for more of our extended interviews, follow and listen to Sunday Morning on the free Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts.
At Radiolab, we love nothing more than nerding out about science, neuroscience, chemistry. But we do also like to get into other kinds of stories. Stories about policing or politics, country music, hockey. sex of bugs regardless of whether we're looking at science or not science we bring a rigorous curiosity to get you the answers and hopefully make you see the world anew Radiolab adventures on the edge of what we think we know wherever you get your podcasts.