Hi, Welcome Bc Couch chat. I'm Brad White. Happy to have you with us today, and happy to have our crew here in the studio. Good morning, Bob. Good morning. Good morning, Philip. Hello, guys. So Brian and Dustin are out. We're gonna have Doctor Weiss, join us here in a little bit, and he's gonna talk about ultrasound and how we can use it for diagnosis. We're also gonna talk about removing the bulls when you should do that
and why you should do that. And leaky gut, It's a syndrome that's been discussed a lot in different types a cattle and Philip gonna fill us in on some of the research and what it tells us about that. Before we get into those topics, did wanna talk a little bit about our other podcast is Bo Science with Bc. We have several more in... Discussions there on specific topic. A little bit different format. You can find it at the
same place you find this podcast. And as always for either that podcast or this 1, if you wanna have a topic you'd like us to talk about You can send us an email at b at KSU dot edu d. Guys, I hope you had a great fourth of July. Stayed safe. And ate lots of good food, which leads to our question for the day. Bet and it's a very specific question. Best fourth of July dessert. Because it has to be something that's not
necessarily gonna melt right away. You can take it to the fourth of July picnic, best fourth of July dessert. But I'm gonna say something that melts. Ice cream. We always have ice cream on fourth of july. And, yes, you're trying to just cutting the close with melting and not melting and putting ice around it, so it doesn't melt So you can take it outside. Homemade ice gotta it's gotta. Yeah. Yeah. And then you need a good piece of, like, strawberry rhubarb pie. To put
it on. You are so right. You are sure right. Does sound good. You guys have good I can't remember what it was called, but there was 1 thing that was, like, a sweet, but it also had pretzels on top. So it was oh Yeah. That strawberry and then a little bit Strawberry and some... Yeah. What is that cold? That's strawberry sn. Strawberry strawberry. That's not what we call them. I will now. There you Right. I hope you had good strawberry sn on fourth of July. So
good Good chance to have some dessert. Let's talk full removal. So Bob, a lot of times, I'm a start with you, but we talk about calvin season, then go into breeding season and breeding season may start mid May, meaning if I want a 60 day calvin season, I need to pull out the bulls, mid July, which can be kind of challenging. So tell me what are your thoughts on how do I get those bowls out? How do I make this decision on getting them out
60 days after the start. Alright. Well, I'm gonna say something that maybe some people would disagree with me on is. I'm not in a hurry to take those bulls out, even though I am a big proponent of a controlled short calvin season, such as a 60, you know, anywhere from 50 to 70, 75 days, you know, kind 60 isn't? I... That's a good number. I like a 60 day calvin season. But bread cows generally are worth enough more than open cows.
I would like to leave the bulls in there and let those cows that would have been open and if we'd remove the bulls, give them a chance to become pregnant later in the breeding season, but that does require that I do pray check where I can identify those light bread cows and and treat them as a coal. They're just a value added coal. They're they're not a part of my a successful breeding season. So what you're saying is you like a 60 day calvin season, but that does not have to mean a 60
day breeding. Absolutely can have a longer breeding season and you're using Pre check to get down to your 60 day calvin season. So I like that because I don't really like going out mid July and getting the bull out of the pasture, but there may be some instances I wanna do that. Philip I'll turned to you and say, what are what are times that you say, maybe I need to get that bowl out for 1 reason or another? Well, so, I mean, it could be the the bulls getting excessively thin.
Or a young bull that he'll he still needs to grow. So maybe I wanna go ahead and get him out of there so I can put him on a little better nutrition, especially we're getting into late summer here forage quality started to decline some, and so he may need some better nutrition to keep growing. Another thing you might wanna think about if I have multi bowl pastors, it is bolts continuing to fight and and things like that. And so bull injury is still a risk. And so maybe if I only have few
cows in there that are still open. Maybe I wanna pull all the bulls out, but maybe 1 or 2. How does that fit with what you were saying about? Yes. We won't know if they're pregnant at that point? Correct. But I really like what Philip said and that it kind of takes this decision and adds a little... May maybe a little bit of complexity to it instead of just a simple. You should leave the balls in or you should leave the balls out.
Kinda look at your bowls and and it particularly in a multi bowl pasture, maybe remove some of the bowls, and again, it doesn't have to be right at 60 days after the start of the breeding season. But at a time when you're moving cows or you're doing some fly control or something like that, if I'm gonna gather the cows evaluate the bulls, decide if I... And and there should be many fewer open cows, you know, this late in the breeding season that I don't need the power that I
needed. The first. And so you start really kinda thinking through, well, how many bulls do I need and which which bulls. So anybody thin, anybody young probably needs come out, but then maybe 1 of the older bowls that looks in good shape, no no indications of problems with lame or anything like that and leave him in for a little bit longer. It just becomes a little bit more of a... And again, I wanna look at it as a strategy to add value to
open cows. But then I've got... I... Then I've still got some of the work of pulling out some of the bowls, which is challenging. And I think the labor part of this is is an issue, especially we're out on summer grass euro... Are you okay if it's a labor issue to leave all the bulls out until Break check time. And so we how long would you leave them out there? I I would say, and and thank you for putting me on
the spot. But I would say, yeah. But then use the the situation that you're dealing with. In that, if I've got labor for another reason. Again, I'm moving past, I'm doing fly control. I'm doing something like that. At that point, you can think about anything that you want to accomplish in that kind of time
frame. But if you're not, if the cows are still out on pasture and you're not moving them, because really, either I am gonna have to gather the cows or I have to go to the work where I'm setting up panels and trying to, you know, hurt a a bowl into a a catch pan or something like that, all of which can be difficult, possibly dangerous. And so I think, yeah.
Maybe the take home is Although I really like a 60 day calvin season, I do not think that you have to have exactly a 60 day breeding season, and be a little more flexible on if and when you remove the bulls. I like that. Flexibility flexibility is I think 1 of the important take homes, and you talked about 60 days calvin. That's what we're shooting for. So, Philip, I I want to ask you, we've heard a lot about leaky gut and managing leaky gut. I. I gotta start out with what is leaky gut? Yeah.
So it's the kind of common term for a I don't know if you wanna call it a syndrome. I don't know what exactly I would call it. But What happens is that we have in the gut, we have a a physical barrier between the inside of the digestive tract and then the rest of the animal. So you got the food and digestive You've got bacteria and stuff like that in
that digestive tract. And that physical barrier keeps that bacteria and other possible toxins and other things from being absorbed across the digestive tract into the bloodstream of the animal. Well, what happens is certain situations and we're... This is still very new research, but certain situations and we don't know all of them. Tend to cause that physical barrier to be disrupted, and that allows large molecules and we think maybe bacteria to be able to get across that digest...
Or that intestinal barrier when they normally wouldn't be able to, and that's why we call it Leaky gut because things that normally don't cross the intestinal barrier leak across into the bloodstream. And so that's where the the term comes from. Yeah. Basically, they're going systemic. So they're going from inside that got into the bloodstream which could be, and you you do a lot of research on liver abs accesses. Right?
A lot of the... As the blood comes from the guts, it's gonna go to liver, that could be a contributing factor to some of our liver abs accesses. It also could be a contributing factor to some of our other either disease or low performance syndromes since we you still have to deal with those bacteria as they come across. Bob, this is a relatively new occurrence. We haven't seen haven't talked about this for a long time. What's your perspective? Well, I I would agree.
It's it's interesting in that I I was certainly not taught, Leaky gut. In either of my veterinary classes or nutrition classes. And it is interesting to think about because I could see, you know, some health issues. Bacteria are not supposed to be in the bloodstream. I can see some performance issues as well. So 1 of my questions, Philip is Are are there some dietary components? Do we see this more on a a grain type diet or can it also occur on a forage type diet or is it during transitions
or or what's the high... What's the theory of of why we see some leaky gut type syndromes? We don't know. I mean, we're really in the early stages of this we've got research out there that that shows that different diet components in young cab. So a lot of the work has been done in young calves, so, like, dairy type calves where we really control the nutrition. I mean so some of
the... There's bits some work dietary components different starch contents of the starter diet, different formulations of the milk replace have tended to increase the ability of the Gi tract in these cab. We know in some older animals that acidosis will cause some, increase in Perm ability, and then we know that animals being off feed for several days.
So decrease feed intake for, you know, 3 to 5 days, severely decreased intake, not just a little bit, but severely decreased intake for 3 to 5 days. Will increase the perm ability of that gut. So we're still figuring out what factors cause it? When does it happen how either how extensive is the effect? Is it the whole Gi tract? Is it just different segments of the Gi tract and so we're still really figuring out a lot about this condition and,
how we can try to manage it. Is it associated with anything I can see such as, manure consistency or anything like that or is is that not as simple as that? It it could be in the case of acidosis, so we would be able to see some more runny diarrhea type manure and then things like that. But some of these other conditions, No. We we haven't got any real evidence that says you... There's any clinical signs that I can see in
the animal. Yeah. I I know we're still kind of in early phases of trying to figure this syndrome out, But what are the ideas as far as trying to prevent it or control it? Is it is it pretty much all dietary interventions or just what exactly do I do to try to minimize the chance. Well, right now, yeah, Most of the stuff I have seen, a research It has been on the dietary side. So, like, probiotics.
And then also, some b vitamins and some things like that as trying to at least in the room to trying to bolster the development and of the epithelium in the room. So things like acid, because it is a major energy source for the epithelial lima room and then things like niacin or t have been tried and and have shown some benefit in different situations. But we do really don't have an answer yet. As far as as treatments or caused factors. So how... This is a... I think interesting from
a standpoint of... Okay. We've got a new potential issue here. How do we sort that out? What kind of research do you see would be the most beneficial to help answer some of these questions? Well, I think that we need to maybe have a systematic approach to from a diet being a nutrition, from a dietary perspective, what types of diets or feed feed ingredients or formulations affect it. So a systematic approach to to that aspect of
it. And then I think we need to take us a step back and look at, okay, what is the... What's the biological reason that this happens? Why would an animal will allow their Gi track to be more permeable? Because that seems like a negative thing and why why does it even happen at all? To better understand then well, maybe, so then what would be our intervention or our preventative measures to keep it from happening. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think it it takes a little bit of time to figure that
out. And often many of us want to... You Bob asked how do we manage it, and you said, well, we've tried x y and z, and we don't even fully understand it yet. So it's hard to know that if those management intervention are there. And I think this is a also a great example of you have to have a clear case definition or how do I know this animal has leaky gut or not? Before I can say, can I get rid of leaky gut or not? Being able to tell that they have it. Right now, the the only way that
we can tell the... Or measure it or determine is, we dose a marker to the animal orally, and we take blood samples or urine end samples and we measure the amount of marker in there. So we know well that amount... That... This animal had more of that marker across the Gi tract in this other animal, and it shouldn't be crossing the Gi tract at all, because it's a large molecule. That's our... Right now, that's our only way to determine Yeah. And so we can clearly
document it occurs and it... And... But the only way to document it is in research setting. Right. We can't do that in the field with all the other animals that are out there. So interesting disease process, and you'll keep us updated. You've got some research ongoing looking at how it's tied to other disease syndromes. But wanted to make you aware that that's kind of an emerging thought process. And I think could it could enable us enable us to hopefully,
hope fully work forward with those calves. Mh. So now we'll get Doctor. Luis to come in and join us and talk a little bit about ultrasound. Welcome back to Doctor. Luis Fat, who's here with us today, and he's a veterinarian from Brazil that's finishing up his Phd and he has done a lot of different work with ultrasound. So looking at things that maybe we don't think about. Because a lot of times
we hear Old Town and Cattle. My first thought is rep repo, Luis has done a lot of other evaluation of both liver, lungs, some other areas. And I wanted to pick his brain today relative to what are some of the pros and cons for places that we put the ultrasound? And maybe just Louise tell us in general, what type of information is that ultrasound providing back to us? First, thanks guys for having me here. Well, Ultrasound is a very very powerful tool.
And you can measure anything. You can evaluate several things, like, tissue density. If there's any abnormal normality that you would look at like in a liver, for example, If we're we're talking about liver abs access. That's something that is quite when when there's access there, it's quite obvious. So it's an artifact when you find those, that we will give you valuable information there.
There are several other soft tissues evaluation that we can use at shoot side with the ultrasound, everything from muscle skeletal evaluations, like if an animal have l or tandem problem, you if a if you have, like, a s problem with a bowl, you can go and look at it and evaluate if there's is a accumulate accumulation of liquids, fluids, if you have a tandem injury or l and injury, which is way more common for horses, but it is literally the same application for
Bo as well. Yeah. Absolutely. So you can evaluate some of those mu skeletal areas. So, Brian and Bob, what what do you guys see beyond our typical rep repo? What are some of the potential things you'd like to know that you think ultrasound may help you figure out if you're trying to diagnose something. 1 of the things is that the equipment for ultrasound is becoming... It's still expensive, but it's becoming more
accessible and more common in veterinary practices. And, you know, so I'm gonna go back to the Rep repo. Yes. We spend anything but. I know, but I'm gonna go there. So rather than just diagnosing pregnancy, some of the... Particularly some of the doppler ultrasound that looks at blood flow and things like that. We were looking at O and getting some good information about o. We can put it on testicles and look for abnormalities of testicles as well. So yes, Rep pro, but beyond just diagnostic
beyond 10 Really need things we're learning. And and I think that you're right because we've talked with some of our of other colleagues about what they're doing looking at test and being able to determine not just if there's damage but the extent damage, which helps with your prognosis. Yeah. Exactly. I think Bob kinda cheated. I mean, he did rep repo without being repo. Right? Like, and all add, and, Bob said, it's cheaper and more accessible. It's also becoming a lot
more portable. And so 1 of the things is it's it's moving from an in clinic diagnostic tool to an in the field diagnostic tool. And I know that was not the case when I was in practice, and there are times where I wish it would have been because, you know, you you show up at a farm and somebody's got a bull or a cow or a calf with a weird mass, and you don't know what it is. And you've got basically a couple options. You can stick a scalpel in it and open it up completely,
which sometimes that's... If it's a thing like a hernia, that's really bad. Not a good idea. Right? Yeah. You can stick a needle in it and if p comes rolling out. Okay, well, you're pretty sure it was an abs access. But sometimes you don't get much fluid. And so... And and you... Sometimes you wonder we'll it could still be an ab. I just didn't get the right part. It didn't get deep enough or whatever.
Now I've got this portable ultrasound where I can put the probe right there, and I can use the probe to guide my needle and collect a sample. I can use the probe to say, hey, this is this mass on the underside of this bull. Is not a hernia. It just looks like a fluid
pocket. So, you know, I... So I look at it as really kind of a another diagnostic tool because now the portability, it's a it's another field diagnostic tool that we can use, essentially for in on, Louise mentioned it, but really, anything that is soft tissue. Right? If it's muscle fluid, all of that. It doesn't do bone, But if it's any of those and we have access to it, it's it's a great tool. So, Luis, what what else as you think about some
of the soft tissue. It makes me think of the abdomen, the intestines, if there's any Gi issues that you like to know, are there any limitations that we should be concerned about? Well, the greatest limitation for pornography is air. The presence of air the ultrasound waves, they are not able to go through air. So anything that would... Like, if you think about the rum. Right? Half of the room is filled with air. So the... Ultra sound waves would not be able to go through those.
So when we were looking at Gi tractor, are some things that we can evaluate. And 1 thing is, hardware disease. When we were looking at, an animal that we are... We have a suspicious of hardware disease, and we place the probe at that fifth inter cost space, by the heart and re reticulum. We can see... We can evaluate for adhesion and and things like that.
The other limitation is that, bow lines are quite big animals, Ultrasound with today's technology, they usually don't go over 30 to 35 centimeters deep. So when you think about an adult animal, you won't be able to see much with that, depth, But there are, some things that you can look with the Gi, like the hardware diseases it's a pretty good 1, when you were evaluating that, re reticulum, diaphragm and heart
wendell. Yeah. And I think there's some opportunities in some of the probes and Brian alluded to this. Not just the the probe, but the probe and the machine have greatly increased portability because At the start, ultrasound were a cart only device. You had a big cart that had your ultrasound machine on it and a little screen And now you have a big screen and probably no cart on many of those. Some some people wear the goggles for the Reaper Ultrasound.
But lots of different applications. The ones most commonly would be reproductive pregnancy detection and also Car evaluation. So there are people that are certified to do that. But as you mentioned, maybe some real opportunities to start thinking about what are some of the other things that it could provide us some information and you guys came up with some great ideas even though Bob's stuck on reach. Stuck on Reg. Yep. So thanks, Louise. Appreciate you joining us today. Thanks for having me.