Hi, Welcome Bc Cattle on Brad White happy to have you with us And happy to have our guys here in the studio today. Good morning, Bob. Good morning. Good morning, Philip. Hey, guys. We're glad that you guys are here. We've got a couple folks out today, but We've still got plenty to talk about. In fact, I've got some questions for you guys. Also, we've got a listener question that was about... Utter development in He and nursing. And then we are gonna get Brian back in and
have him discuss how antibiotics work. So pretty big question for Brian. So we'll wait tiny back in for that 1. But we will be able to address that before we get into those, I wanna remind you if you have questions, comments, things you'd like us to talk about, You can send us an email at bc at KSU dot EDU. And before I get into my even more random questions. I do have 1 for you guys. I was in charge of dinner last night, and I'm
afraid, I don't have a lot. In my toolbox as far as being able, so we had burgers. Mh, which is not surprised. But I thought I would pick your brains. When you're left to make dinner for the family. Do you have anything I could do... Now remember? My skill set is low. So what could I cook for the family besides burgers, and don't say steaks because I've already got that 1 down too. That that that was gonna be my answer. Okay. It's gotta be pretty simple. Can you follow a recipe
for Not really. Oh, boys. Like you trouble. When... Let's see there's craft mac and cheese. Yeah. Amber helper. Yep. Yep. What just kind of an egg scramble. You just... You scramble a bunch of eggs and then you open the fridge and see what else is in there, maybe some bacon or... It's chop ups some veggies and stuff. You can always kinda do that egg scramble, and that's kind of a... That's kind of a last minute. I can't kids don't like them black, though. That's all can truth.
You do have it. Can you do pancakes? Mean you can do breakfast? No. I don't I don't like breakfast for dinner. Yeah. Alright. See you could see why my difficulties is coming from. Yeah. It may be so far I'm thinking call in the pizza place. Just starting to look about. The best you're gonna do. Alright. The burgers were excellent. Yeah, bet
they were. So... Well, that will lead us directly into... I do have some questions for you guys, And and we'll do this where we've gone through before relatively short as we go through, because I have several questions for you. And it's Philip, I'm gonna start out with you. If we're in a situation, some are grazing and you guys can either 1 jump in. But some are grazing, I've been putting mineral out all year, and then my mineral consumption
has dropped by quite a bit. So I'm not putting mirrors as much out. Is this something I need to worry about? Do I need to move the mineral feeder changed to a different type of mineral? Or do I assume? Well, if they're not eating it, they're getting it somewhere? Well, I don't know that you can assume that generally. Because generally, they're gonna consume mineral based on salt.
So probably the reason they're not... Assuming mineral is because they're getting plenty of salt through the forage or somewhere else. So, we probably need to to think about how to get some mineral into them. So this time of year, I mean, we're in the summer probably starting some summer supplementation subtype types and pro... Protein supplement. So have the mineral mixed right into your protein supplement is the best strategy, and then you they're gonna consume it right along with
the protein up. Yeah. Control their control consumption, and be sure that if I've got it placed, it's placed high traffic. Area. So near the water, somewhere they can get to or somewhere they'll come to get it. Bob, next question for you, carry fly control, back rubber or get everyone in and individually apply an insect side. Well, You know, first of, I've I've worked with producers that have made a lot of
different methods of flight control work. And so, you, I'm not gonna actually argue with anybody that has figured out a system that works for them. But I do like a back rubber in that, I think most cattle will use it, particularly again, it does have to be placed in the right place place in an area where they're gonna walk. Through anyway. And I do have to make sure that it's charged and that I've kept it full.
I mean, so there's a little bit of work involved but it does allow cattle to basically, self medicate every day, or nearly every day, And I... And that's 1 of the things I really like. It's relatively inexpensive way that... If it's placed right and it's charged and and kept up, it's a pretty good way to provide a, frequent fly control, and, you know, you know, there's stuff I like and don't like about every
method of flight control. 1 of the things I don't like about ear tags is You start with 1 dose and then that dose gradually declines over the summer. When you're using a back rubber again as long as they're still insect insecticides out there, I'm I'm keeping the same dose throughout the summer. And so I I really like that. Yeah. The struggle is making sure that they all use it,
and they won't all use it. So you have to you have to figure out whereas if I apply, your tags are insect insecticides, I gave all the same dose. 1 point in time. Which is I I said there's there's positives and negatives for any way you, provide the flight control and getting them all in and doing a a spray or a pour on. I That's a way to ensure that every animal gets it, but I'm gonna have to repeat that pretty frequently, and that
becomes very labor intensive. But you also said you would argue with anybody about it than you argued with. Well, I'm I'm just saying there's always a plus in am mine. Nice bro account. Alright. Philip up, next topic for you, rapid cool season grasses. I that we're growing rapidly, tried grazing them couldn't keep up with them. So now I have a mix of some areas that are g really well. Some areas where it's gotten too mature.
Give me some ops should I go in and try to make hey in this scenario, should I continue trying to grade it even though it's gone to mature, Should I try to mow it in the cool season scenario? So at this point, we're probably past the idea of paying a cool season forage. So at probably, 1 thing we could try to do though is we... Thing on your situation, if you can adjust the size of your pastors or your pad. To shrink them down quite a bit, and we're gonna go more intensive grazing
where we're gonna really... We're gonna force those animals to consumes some more of that, older mature forage, at least tram it down, and as they're in there, So that then once we start to get a little cooler weather here a little in another month or so, we get a good free growth, a good flush of... Of good cool season forge again. So I wanna get rid of that stuff.
I could go in there and I can mow it off with a brush hog or something like that, but that's gonna be fairly expensive, but I can do some things about managing the intensity of my grazing. And I also need to to probably do a little bit of that anyway is where I'm allowing some of those pastors to get longer rest as that growth rate slows down in those cool season voyages in the... With the hotter weather. Yeah. Trying to trying to get them to utilize it, which utilization may involve consumption
or tram. And so that way I get the that plant to put up some new leaves and shoots and stuff when it cools off. Yep. Absolutely. So last question for you, Bob is pink eye related, and both of you and I have been frustrated by this disease and and we see it. And and specifically, when we think about identifying it, give me some things I should look forward to identify it in individuals and maybe determine Which 1 should I treat or not treat? Yeah. To deal with pink eye effectively, I'd like
to treat it as early as possible. So as soon as you see some tearing in the eyes... I would I would get those calves and treatment them. Again, I know that's not easy. A lot times were out on pasture, and it's a it's a difficult thing to ask, but It's not gonna get better on its own for a while. And so if you... You're gonna see it progress, and you'll you'll see some ulcers in the eye, you'll see more
pain more. More calf performance losses. So the main thing is so as soon as you see any watering in the eye and you go well, it doesn't really look cloudy yet, it doesn't look red, treat it now. Treat it as soon as you see the watery. Exactly. And I think I think your your point there is this disease develops very, very rapidly. So you'll see that that progression from tier to have an a corn ulcer or scratch on the surface of the eye
happens really quickly. Sooner we get them in, the better we have a chance of of a good outcome. Yeah. Exactly. And the the success of treating 1 so that... There's quite a bit of damage to that eye. Our antibiotics probably aren't gonna make as much difference as they would have much earlier. Now sometimes we'll put a patch on them and we'll do some other things that that provides some relief, but we would have been a lot more effective if we had treated
it earlier. Absolutely. Great answers, guys. Good good answers to those questions. And now I wanna hear your answer to a listener question. And this question is a really good 1 because I think it involves a a couple different facets here. And they had a situation where they had he that were about 3 months bread. They went ahead and turned them in with the main herd. Makes it a lot easier management wise.
The challenge that they're running into is some of the young calves that were born from cows in the herd are now trying to nurse those He couple parts of this question. Do I have concerns that this is going to mess up the He utter development And 2, what do I do to get the caps from to stop doing this. So Bob, I'm gonna turn to you first. Which can I answer either 1? Yeah. You answer the easy 1 we'll give the hard 1 fill it? Yeah. Well, will it cause some problems to their editor
development? I... I'm concerned that it could. And 1 of the things I'm concerned about developing the mass dye or something else like that. And so This is... I'm not gonna let this stand. I'm gonna try to... And probably that means, the easiest way to make sure that it stops is to remove those he out of it. I think I was fine to put the he in there with the cows when they're on growing... Green growing grass But we've run into a problem.
I think it's time to adjust that plan and and actually pull them out and put them where they're not with those calves. I think you're right. And and from some of my conversations the... We we often don't see mas in mature cows, but you certainly can develop it as a he if they're nurse on it other playing around and see those situations. Philip, what are what are your thoughts as far as... So bob Bob said, maybe get the he out of there will help solve the
problem. Does and that he's concerned about. What are your thoughts on this 1? Well, I think 1 of the first questions I ask, why are they nursing on a effort that has no bag she's got no other development. She's providing no milk. It is the 3 months bread as a he. So why are they nursing on her instead of the damn? I mean, I can I can see them maybe going to nurse as just a a comfort reflex? The dams were not no longer in there, but they're dam that's producing
the milk is in there. So the question is why are they... And so are my are my mature cows thin? Have they really backed off their milk production, you know, start figure out maybe why those calves are wanting to nurse on those he instead of nursing on their dams. And so... And maybe I need to provide a creep, Maybe I need some additional nutrients, of those calves if my cows have really backed off in their milk production or something. But they you start figuring out maybe why that's is
happening and them... Because there may be more to it than just so I need to protect the other development of the he. I need to figure out Mh. Why my calves are doing it because it's it made very well be a nutritional deficiency thing they're just hungry. So we... And I think that's an important distinction is on the sign of the problem is the cab nursing he, but the actual root to the problem maybe the milk from the dams is what
you're saying. So first you... First shoot check body condition, also wouldn't be opposed to getting some of those cows in if you can't see their ut well or even if you can see their at well and make sure that, she's actually got the milk that is necessary for those calves, because that may be kind of the root because this is not normal. Behavior and that they would be trying to trying to nurse on. Now it is relatively normal that they'll once in a while, swap dams
and still a bite here or there. Right? I mean, that that will happen, but you... I wouldn't expect them to be going towards those he because those he at this point should have nothing in there At. Right, bob Yeah. And and I am kinda just guessing what might be going on here. It could be a behavioral thing where the hep don't know enough to keep those calves away. Know, maybe the other cows are gonna, you know, kick, I'm in it could be pretty natural.
So I... This is an interesting question because it... It's not typical. It's not normal It needs to be in negated. So III agree. But don't stop with just removing the he. Go ahead and figure out because if those cab are truly short on nutrition now. Can do address to address it. Yeah. Excellent. We'll appreciate you guys answering that question, and let's go ahead and get doctor Lube in and talk about antibiotics. Brian, I'm gonna turn to
you first. We've had a couple listener questions along the same general theme and I'll para. They're basically how do antibiotics work. We've Seems like a pretty simple question that you should be able to answer in 30 seconds, but I'm sure you'll be able to expand a little bit further. Maybe a little bit Yeah. Maybe a little bit. Yeah. Give us a a little bit of background because I think the root of this question is how should I use them and when should I use? Them, but tell us a little
bit about how antibiotics do work. Yeah. And and first of all, I think it's great that producers want more information and to be more knowledgeable, not. Just because they wanna do better on their operations, but a lot of times they get asked questions from consumers. And so, you know, if you're at educated user of antibiotics. I I think that portrays us in AAA much better light as far as how we use antibiotics and antibiotics stewardship. So I I think that that quest
for information knowledge is great. And I'll I'll just say, I think probably the best resource is is talk to your veterinarian. And because a lot of times, the reasons why we might choose 1 antibiotic over another aren't necessarily related to activity. There there are a lot of factors we think about when we decide that this is the antibiotic we wanna use for this particular case. But to answer your question. So how do they work? Essentially, an antibiotic is is a chemical, and it somehow,
interferes with bacterial growth or replication. That's the that's the most basic definition. And there are lots of ways that they can do that. Lots of different ways. So we have We have antibiotics that inhibit bacterial cell wall growth. We have antibiotics that inhibit bacterial protein synthesis. We have antibiotics that inhibit bacterial replication by interfering with Dna and rna for the bacteria. And 1 of the things
to keep in mind too. The antibiotics we have are good antibiotics because that they have selective activity against the bacterial protein synthesis, but not mammal million or human or bo protein synthesis. And so, you know, 1 of the questions we have is why don't we have more bikes. It's not because we can't develop molecules that kill bacteria because they aren't safe because a lot of these processes, protein synthesis Dna replication, mammals also have those
processes. Yeah. So effective antibiotics that us so damage the host are not very useful. Not very useful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So as we think about those different mechanisms, but there's also different classes or types of antibiotics. And those impact both how we use them, and I'm gonna say how we talk about them. For this conversation. So the 1 I'm thinking of is Ion fours. And Bob, would you qualify Ion fours as an antibiotic and what makes them may be different or unique than
some of our other antibiotics. Yeah. So an antibiotic basically is just a natural substance that is produced that inhibits other our other bacteria. And so, Ion, they the way they work is they change if you think remember that the rum is a is a big vat, with a lot of different bacteria in it that are breaking down. Forage feed into usable products for the rest of the body to
use. The muscles that kidney everything else. And so that bacterial population in the room and it it's a bunch of different types of bacteria. And so what ion do is they actually preferential kill some types of bacteria that aren't as efficient they produce some byproducts that aren't as useful to the animal. And so it gives a kind of a an competitive advantage.
To the bacteria in the room that are the most efficient at turning forage and feed into usable, you know, proteins, energies, carbohydrates that the volatile fatty acids that that that the Bo uses. And so it's a really neat little it's in and again, it's just kind of moving the the microbial population to give an advantage to some bacteria and a disadvantage to others. Well, and the other thing about the ion for. And again, we talk
about... There are lots of different things that a veterinarian would consider before they choose. 1 antibiotic over another, in the ion 4s as far as importance to human medicine. So that's a factor we would think about Right? A lot of the antibiotics we use in Bo production are also not necessarily the same molecule, but they'll be in the same family or same class. As an antibiotic that is used in human medicine, the anna fours are the kind of 1
exception and it's because of safety. Right? The fours aren't safe to use in people. And so that that has a different regulatory status when we think about importance to human medicine, promoting resistance. So if we use ion force in cattle production, their they're we've used them for a long, long time, and there isn't really evidence that they're promoting resistance in human bacteria. And so, you know, that... That's a... Again, 1 of those factors that we think about mechanism of action.
We we do... There are different types of bacteria as kind of Bob mentioned, so we think about gram positive bacteria versus gram, negative bacteria, aerobic bacteria versus aerobic bacteria in some antibiotics will only work on gram positives versus gram negative. Their out forces
would be 1 of those examples. Right? So if we know, what type of infection we have if we think about therapeutic uses, What type of infection we have, we definitely wanna pick a class of antibiotic that has activity against that type or if there's a couple different bacteria that may cause it. Pastor element h, causing respiratory disease, those are gram negatives. We wanna pick an antibiotic that has gram negative spectrum.
Well, and another thing, so specifically for ion fours, different antibiotics will go to different tissues. And and they're delivered in different away. So ion are delivered orally in the feed, and they tend to stay in the gut in the digestive tract. They don't go to the other tissues. And so that would be, you know, for those are the types of things that a veterinarian thinks about when they pick, which antibiotics uses is well... What tissue does it go
to. What route of administration do we use so that it gets to the tissue that I want it to or maybe to not go to tissues that I don't want it to. You you mentioned Spectrum Brian. So... A lot of times they think of... And you'll hear the term broad spectrum antibody. Does that mean it gets everything and I could just use 1 antibiotic and get good at using that 1, or am I gonna need different antibiotics for different circumstance? Well, actually, broad versus neuro spectrum is
really poorly defined. But I mean, that's the general concept. Right? Is it broad spectrum, antibiotic covers gram positive and gram negatives. Arrow, and. Right? So they're they're big categories bit even there are exceptions within those and there's certain there are particular bacteria within each of those classifications that 1 antibiotic may get and 1 may not. Right? And again, kind of boils down to the mechanism of action, So is it a protein synthesis inhibitor or a cell wall inhibitor.
But I And 1 of the things when we talk about antibiotics and producers getting more information, we we tend to kinda get... Trapped with B. It's our biggest disease challenge. And we often think about B d, and most of the antibiotics are approved for B for those reasons. Right? And if you really if you really wanna have a discussion and learn more about antibiotics and why you would choose 1 over another
1. Again, I I would involve a veteran involve your veterinarian and, but think about different kinds of cases. So the antibiotic we choose for Bo respiratory disease, caused by Mann jaime is may not be the same 1 we choose for my plasma pneumonia or certainly probably not the same 1 we would choose for my plasma, arthritis or ear infections. Right? Or think about foot rot is a different disease where the spectrum could matter, and you would pick it... You may pick
a different antibiotic because of the difference. So think about different disease challenges and that'll help you get a little more understanding about different classes and what you should be using for those diseases. And basically, 3 semesters of that's school. 3 semesters about school Would help to. But they're in and in 1 of the I did answer 1 of the listener questions via email. He said, you know, talk to your veterinarian and We use
formula. So those are... They're basically condensed books of drug labels. They often talk give a little background on the drug, how it works, the class. Some of them have doses, but, again, you really need to talk to your veterinarian when you get into the dose specifics, but they'll talk about side effects, spec. All the things we're talking about. That's all kinda condensed in a formula. And so for for general knowledge, that's good when you get into the specific clinical uses,
certainly need to involve your veterinarian. Yeah. Some of the things that as a veterinarian you think about is... And and the reason that we don't want to overuse antibiotics. 1 that people are probably aware of is is resistance. We don't wanna... Select for resistance where the antibiotics don't work anymore. But there's other things too. There are some antibiotics that that might be kind of hard on the kidney it cause
kidney damage if the animal is dehydrated. So the animal itself, it might be an antibiotic that would work if the animal was... Hydrated and and doing well other than what I'm trading it for. But if he's dehydrated and he's... That maybe a really go had bad choice. The other 1 when we talk about food animals, animals that are gonna go into the food system is how long they stick
around the body, so the withdrawal time. So you know, 1 of the reasons that, we don't just use antibiotics without thinking about it is resistance, side effects. And withdrawal time. And so that's... Again, that's... It... It's kinda complicated pretty fast and making wise antibiotic decisions is really part of what both veterinarians and producers are asked to
do. I think that's important and being able to justify your rationale that you selected that specific drug for that treatment, and that's where you're working with your veterinarian. And both of you mentioned go to the label. The other thing that I would say, different drug names or different brand names don't necessarily mean that they are
dramatically different in term... Especially in terms of class of drug that they're in, meaning they may work very similarly to something else that's something that's hard to pick up unless you have some background knowledge. So talk talk to your veterinarian and great information. Appreciate both of you sharing some of that. And appreciate everything else. That we talked about today. And if you have a question topic or thing you'd like us to talk about on future, so send us an email, Bc at You.