Video Games & ADHD

Hey everybody, it's me. Katie asaurus and welcome back to infinite Quest this week on infinite. Quest. Eric and I are tackling all things ADHD, and video games. And by all things, I actually mean a very small amount of things because we only had an hour, but we talked about Minecraft. So that's cool. Before we begin. Eric, and I have a really special, and really cool announcement and it feels so surreal to even be making This announcement but we are officially announcing our first

ever live show. I know it's big. It's kind of its kind of a big deal. You guys. The live show recording is going to be just part of our weekend apparent schedule at play on con which is happening. July 8th to the 11th both online and in person and Columbiana Alabama at the 4-H Center sort of a crossover event between summer camp and a convention and we're really really excited. We do. Want to let you know that tickets and lodging are still

available. If you're interested, you can visit play on con.com, but large caveat. You do have to be vaccinated to attend in person. So if you haven't gotten around to it yet and you want to come hang out with us for a weekend, make sure that you do that in enough time to come see us in July. So, that's the big announcement. It's our first live show. It's our first convention appearance. We are so excited. That's play on con.com. If you want to check it out. We've also got our appearance.

Dual listed on our website so you can sort of clicky through the lengths and all of that good stuff. And if you can't make it in person, no worries. A lot of the events like I said before, are going to be online. So make sure to check it out anyway and, you know, we'll just zoom right into your living room. So without further Ado, that's the announcement. Here's the show about video games transition. Oh well. Hello everybody.

Guess what? It's another episode of infinite Quest. Welcome to the party. Welcome to the quest. Hooray, what number episodes? This, this is 42. Eric, we're gonna have to do something big for our 50th. Oh, I hadn't thought of that. We have to do something super cool. I don't to do. Here's what we do. We contact all the guests. We've ever had, and we put them all in one big, Zoom room. No, no. I'll talk to each other. Yeah, out there me out. Robert. Downey jr.

Oh yeah, I guess. Oh my gosh. Robert Downey jr. Stephen Colbert, and Jim Carrey, three people. I really want to have an apartment. I could not endure being perceived by Stephen Colbert. It would be too much for me because of scary. I would be like Stephen Colbert, don't perceive me, just be honest. Like such a, he's such a secret. Like Genius, Like secret philosopher genius guy. He's so smart.

He's such a smart guy and also, like I kind of wanted to be my dad but like not In a sex way like and just like a, will you be my dad? Because you seem like you'd be like a really good dad. Like, oh yeah, I feel like similar would be like, the coolest dad. Oh yeah, Tony all about Tolkien and stuff like that. And I'm like, it's like, here's the thing. I would introduce Stephen Colbert to the wood mother.

That would be what I would do. I'd be like, Stephen Colbert, my friend, the wood mother knows more about tolki and thank you. Let's go Toki, don't with Stephen Colbert, DD it be fucking amazing. That's what I would do.

The beacons are lit. God calls for the That Talking Tom taking the Hobbits to Isengard every kind of cool Minecrafting to build like a big Beacon and we could like single stuff to each other L Isengard and Minecraft perfect dude I'm sure there are some killer eyes and guides in Minecraft. I can't stop thinking about my crap. I know me neither I mean I've been watching videos like a people build and stuff and place to me, it's your fault. I don't play no games and it's your fault.

Why is he here are your I mean, I don't want to say, like, you've been doing well, because especially Would like Minecraft there like you know, there is no like, well you just kind of like do your thing, you know, I like the the server, the server that we found is really is cool because you just push the button and then you can just go on an adventure but it's safe. I love that. Yeah. Oh yeah, it's wonderful. Also. I didn't know that when we first started playing, so the

authority. I felt about losing you was like, perf Oz. Like, I was suicidal. I was constantly afraid that I was going to get hopelessly lost in Minecraft for forever and I didn't know how to do anything in the game is so stressful. Often sand and single player like regular mode. Oh it happens. And it's never play Minecraft in sit, right. Like, I can be unbearable stress of that. Terrible stress of that. I just I couldn't. I couldn't do it. Well, how do you, how do you

feel about Minecraft? You seem to be, you seem to be enjoying, always be creative. How do you feel? I have been swayed. Eric, I thought it was really stupid. I thought that it was like a blink until like, I don't know why I have like and this is something that like I need to like, actually, like unpack a little bit but like In my head, it like my curves like a boy game which is like stupid. Like that's not a good opinion to have because things like video games are not gendered.

But I think it's just because like we get a lot of trick-or-treaters at my house and so all the Minecraft costumes were like little boys. And so I was like, I was like a thing that like little boys like, and I'm like, well, I'm not a little boy, so I'm not going to fucking try it. And then it turns out that I like, fucking love it. I was wrong. I stand corrected. I need to unpack some gender bias and stereotypes. It's fine. We're out here doing the Work.

I think especially when it comes to well for one. I'm so glad you've come over to the to the side of enjoy Minecraft because it is a genuine pleasure playing with you. I like to build stuff. I like it because I was always my favorite part of Sims was like building the stuff into it. Like I would I was I would always like build really fancy houses and then I would just immediately murder my people because I didn't care about people. I just wanted to build like

extravagant house. Yeah, you got to put them in the pool and then take out the ladder. Yeah, that's it was just like whatever you guys but it's just like I just really like designing, like Buildings and

stuff. But the thing that I like most is, like, going on, like little like, you know, when you go to, like the different areas, and then you just see like these incred like that bird cage with the giant bird that was like, one of the coolest things that I've ever like, I'm just somebody just, like, got bored one afternoon and like built that. But, like understanding like, how much do you know? It's because you need like glass

and sand and shit. It's so it's like understanding like how much shit he had to like mine to be able to like make the thing. It's just like, I love, it's so great. Makes me so happy. Yeah. It's like, genuinely an example of like how cool people are and like, I think something that's super strange about Minecraft specifically when it comes to ADHD is so many things, so. Alright.

First off, if you don't know what a Minecraft is Minecraft is I forgot Blaine Minecraft. Pretty people who don't know what Minecraft is. Was like ten years old now. I think it's 11 years old now. It's a Minecraft is a game is hot off the press. 10 year old game. Minecraft is a game that you can roughly think Of as being like Lego, if the whole world was Legos. So you spawn in as like a little person and you have nothing on you and you're like in the woods it's like many men afraid except

with computers. Exactly. And your you have little adorable little pixel clothes on you. But so you walk around and there's, you're surrounded by blocks like. So there are like, trees made out of blocks and the ground is made out of dirt blocks, and then there's like water, that's blocks and you can punch them and get the block.

So you punch the tree and you get wood and then If you get all the wood from the tree, you can make little crafting bench and then you can use the stones from the ground and the wood from the trees to make like an axe to chop wood better and then you can like a dig really deep and then find metal in the next up. Out of that gets so complex. Like it gets monumentally complex of that. The things that you can build based on resource Gathering and like construction.

So, people build like massive farms, and people you can make actual working computers. Like, you can make and Gates and logic systems enough. Like if the thing flows into this chest then it's an and or whatever. I don't know how to computers work but like it gets insane. How deep like Minecraft goes, what's really interesting about

it? To me is the process of gathering materials like Gathering up the, you know, 10,000 sand blocks, that, that one person needed to melt to make the giant Birdcage. Like it is hours and hours and hours of tedious work just walking around smacking blocks to break them to get the stones. Like, if you were to tell me to do that, if you were just to say, Eric your, here's this video game, I need you to break 10,000 blocks.

I'd be like, please. No. Oh, God, no, please, no. Thank you know, that sounds awful, but if you have like a thing in mind that you want to build you just Flow State, you like, everything makes sense. I need the thing to make the thing to get the things like that, that the jungle wood, because I needed the special wood to make sure I still have it done. And that's all I want to do like all day.

Meaning to go make the loom but I've been doing like actual work but like in the back of my ADHD troll brain, it's dead. Like you still haven't made the loom and then you can make Underpants with it to make Underpants. I don't think you can actually make Underpants business.

The fruit. Little Fruit of the Loom is Alberto. That's somebody maybe a dinosaur outfit in Minecraft like on the distance but I don't know how to put it on. My God I'm sorry we should definitely Make little Minecraft characters that look like us. That sounds really fun because we have the Katie ADHD Minecraft server. I just don't know how to work it. I don't sing a song, scary. Understand how it works out too. Embarrassed to ask anybody?

Well, so on the idea of like, the weird tedious things that Minecraft has you do? Like, for me and my ADHD. It is a lot. It's a lady, has it. So it has really good parts where it's like, oh, wow! I've learned that. If I do this thing, I can be more organized. Or I can, I've learned that if I have a creative goal in mind that I feel is worth it, I can do the same thing for long periods of times but I also run into things where I'm terrible at them. Yeah. Like because Minecraft Is all

about, I need to do this thing. But in order to do that thing, I need to get this other thing and in order to get that thing, I need to get this other thing and it gets so deep that I very rarely end up actually making my way down that path of stuff to do. The initial thing that I liked wanted to complete but I still practice doing that. So like would you say that the real Minecraft is the last two learned along the way? Yes, Katie.

Yes, I would the real mine was the Crafts, remind along the Minecraft. Hashed, that's mine. That's a hashtag whatever. I just said, that's what's gonna be our merger 20/20. Stephen Colbert on the show. We just make hybrid. No, no, that's John Oliver anyway, sorry either. I got a specific hashtags.

Yeah, you know, is the hybrid. Anyway, what I wanted, I wanted to ask you like, says you're like, you know, you're not only new to the Minecraft world, but you're new to the Video Game World. Like how do you feel video games have interacted with your ADHD so far?

Weird. Because I really like mixed relationship to video games because, like, my parents had Bafflingly a logical rules about video games, like it was really funny because like I was not a lot like we did not have a Nintendo, we were not allowed to have like a Nintendo or like a video game console, but my parents were completely fucking chill with computer games, which I still have so many goddamn questions about. Like there is no difference but we were not allowed to have a Nintendo.

We were not allowed to have like a Sega but like computer games is fine and so, Like, but I grew up because I'm older than you. I see I grew up firmly in the age of like video games are for boys, not for girls. And the only video games the girls can play are the girl video games. So like I used to play a lot of like Barbie movie maker at like Sim I play a lot of the Sims. I was obsessed with this one game called Titanic Adventure out of time which I've tried.

Oh yeah he did lie and unsuccessfully to On Twitch, but I can't get it to work on my computer in a fucking sad about it. But really the only, I mean, like I played Mario, like everybody plays Mario, like, everybody has a friend who was an old Nintendo in their basement, you would go over, you play my like Mario, so like I was like aware of it. Terry like that for me. Like, I re I was, I was hyper focused on the Titanic like,

like, just like the boat. And so, like the computer game was less about like, oh, I'm excited to like, play the game itself. The mystery, I just like walking around the Titanic, like, it was more of like a research. They, I don't want to say research, I could actually walk

around the Titanic in the game. The thing about Titanic Adventure at a time, was they built a completely scale model of the Titanic in the game and you could go and you could like, and they use like reference photos and stuff. The actual ship so like like you could just walk around the Titanic like that was the whole, that was the selling point of the game. That's so sweet. But it was like puzzle game is like an escape room game.

Where like you go to like the Turkish bath and you had to like turn the dials on the shower, a certain way and you get a piece of the puzzle, but the idea of Titanic, in venture out of time, not that you care at all. Was that you were time, travelling, agent from like World War Two and you got sent back to the Titanic during the London Blitz and like you had to like Stop the Titanic from sinking to like stop Hitler from

taking over the way. It was really weird like the conceit of the game was very weird but whoa its claim to fame was that it was like a 3D model of the Titanic and he just like walk around and I thought that was cool.

But anyway, so I what I found was like I I would get into games like that where it was like puzzle games or or like walking around games but like side-scrollers I'll get super frustrated about because I wasn't immediately, I'd this guy Shock, you, I wasn't immediately good at that. So I didn't like them very much and so, so, yeah. And then, there is another game. It was called black and white.

And it was this like weird game where, like you were a God, but at some point, in the game, you would choose whether or not you're going to be like a benevolent. God or like a mean God and like, that was like I played the shit out of that gate once ever like, I did nothing. But sit in my basement and play black and white for like hours and hours and hours, were you? Gaia I had to, I'd, I was running two games at the same time, so hopefully the bad guy and then I would be the good guy.

But the the thing is, is the only reason I played this game. The only reason was because there is this part of the game where there's this guy, it's just such a stupid story. It is nothing new in this podcast. There are these guys. There's these guys and they were like, on this little, there was like a it was like a little, you know, this is like a resource management gave basically, but There was like a like a little island and there is these Sailors who wanted wood for their ship.

So they can build a ship. And if you like did a certain series of tasks, the guys would sing you a song like and it was like this really fucking catchy song. And so, I used to play the shit out of this game, so I can make the guys sing the song. Can you, do you remember the song? Can you sing the song? It's like, oh, we got this notion that we might like to sail the ocean. So, We're building a big shit to leave here for good, but we've gotta stick it.

So there is something and then I would be like, but we need some more one, but we're building a big ship and we need more wood and then they were just like, I'm so their signal song, it's AA, get really excited. I would give them like all the wood so they could build their self because I was a kind and benevolent. God said that's the whole story. Really glad I didn't realize our podcast for 15 minutes to talk about this. How did you get the wood?

You would you just pick up trees because you're only like, you just like, I know. But like there's like a thing. You like turn it into like plan. I don't remember. But like you just hand him a tree, basically, but it was also really funny because you could just like people. You could just like pick up a guy and throw him and like it. I would just do that all the time.

You have like this old, God hands that would come down and pick up people, he would throw them and then there's like this weird voice and it would just go. Like in that looks like how you move it. You would like kill the guy. So giving these people the wood and hearing them sing the song was motivation enough for you to gather all that, would it? Well, yeah, I was just like handled by piles and piles. Piles.

It was thinking that I would delete the game and then I heard that but like day and I would just go back and I replay it. So they would sing me the song again, just over and over, and over. I love that's all. Get ready for a bunch of people sending you covers of them doing that. So please do please, I'm sure that has to exist. Like I haven't thought of Song any cures but I guarantee like I'm gonna fuckin, I don't even care. I know recording podcast, I'm

looking it up right now. I don't even care. I'm okay. Shipbuilding sock. Why should my gosh Oh man. The yeah, the bike ride Sailors dark. There's least a couple of videos of it, so but I don't know if anybody's covered it. So let's find, I mean, you know, I wouldn't hate it if you played it right now. Okay. You want to hear it? Yeah, I wouldn't. Yeah. Okay. To baby and we've run out of way that's really impressive. And then yeah, they're like little Pirates, they had like a

little accordion and shit. Oh sorry, that's delightful, that's what I remember. I can't remember my banking password that I set last week but I can remember the Sailing Song from black and white from when I was 12 fucking years old, because that's what I do with My time. Cool. Cool. Well, do you find nowadays when you're playing the Minecraft? When we're doing the things, what, what do you find is difficult because of your ADHD and or what do you find is, is easier. Oh man.

Well, okay. First off, I want to know about your relationship to video games. That's a question that I have. But okay, don't answer your question. First, I don't play video games, really? Because of my ADHD. Like that's, that's really it. Like Minecraft is one of the first Games that like I've started playing. Because what happens to me is that I like instantly. I'm like, this game is going to consume me.

And even as we've been playing Minecraft, I've had to be like, I mean you were there when Chris came home and I was like, yeah, I'll be, I'll play for like 20 more minutes, and he came up like, two hours later and he's like, where the fuck have you been? And so, like, that's the thing. It's like I really tend to lose track of time and I really tend to get like really invested in like, you know, if there's like a bunch of Different stars or prizes or whatever like I want

to get them all and so yeah. Like people always think it's really weird but like I don't have names on my phone, I don't have a single game on my phone. It's all like functional app stuff that I use because of like if I put a game on my phone that is all I am going to do for the next week or two weeks or whatever until the dopamine wears off. So yeah, I really don't play a lot of games because of that

Yeah, it's risky. I mean like because video games especially when it comes to ADHD people with ADHD I have a much higher likelihood of becoming addicted to stuff in general but also video games and I think it's because video games, give those little dopamine checkpoints, they give you lights and colors and they reward you in stuff.

Which I think is incredibly useful, if you like, think about it, if you break it down and think why, why am I able to do this thing that in any other circumstance would be insanely boring, you know, pressing the same button? Button over and over, and over again for two hours. Why am I now so motivated to do that? And how did the video game get me to do that?

It's really interesting. Well, it's a number, it comes down, it'll kind of to behavioral ISM, like a BF Skinner, the father of Behavioral ISM inventor of this Skinner boxes which is trigger warning, not very nice to animals, but you would put like a rat in a box and you put a button in the win, the bat box with the rat, and it would press the button and get food it very quickly. Learns to The button in order to get the reward of food. However, you can also do interval-based rewards.

So like every three times it hits the button, it'll get food. You can also do variable Rewards or just any random amount of times that it hits the button. It will get food. So maybe five times maybe 10, maybe, two, maybe three, so Tick-Tock cool. Oh yeah, it's very Tick-Tock very tick tockia. But the idea is that that first one where it presses a button gets the food every time once it Cops getting the food. It will immediately, stop well, not immediate, but people very, very quickly.

Stop pressing the button and learn that like that stupid. Now, I'm not doing that anymore. It'll not do the behavior. The second one, where it's interval-based, it'll for a little bit longer, it'll keep pressing the button but by far the one that stuck the most was the random one where randomly gets food every time. It's when it will keep doing that behavior for a very long time, even after it hasn't gotten food forever. Attacked I know, right? As a rat's, we'll talk about Tick-Tock.

That's just literally describe Tick-Tock. Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool, cool cool. Yes I did, but video games work in Castle somewhat the same way where we get rewarded variably for the things that we do. You know you there's a big boss then you attack the boss. Hopefully, it drops something good, sometimes it doesn't.

And I think the way that video games reward us can tell us and how they motivate our Savior as people with ADHD can really inform us about how we can help motivate our own behavior. Like the idea that making this Birdcage in Minecraft, like pressing the same button over and over and over again, for hours and hours, and hours is on its face. Very boring. Not to mention collecting all this and that you have to use to make the glass to do the thing.

But because the goal in mind is like a internally set, go like it's worth it to have this freakin bird cage thing somewhere that player. Out there and we're just like showering that Birdcage with compliments. If you're, if you're listening to this Birdcage Builder is good with your giant Spirit. We see you. But I think it's really informative like how do and how like it make it always makes me wonder, like, how can I get that into my own life and I do in some ways?

Like with my coffee stirrer models, like sitting here, cutting 100 equal, length, coffee. Stirrers to make a thing. Like, if I was doing that for no reason, I would it would be excruciating. But because I have this goal in mind. I'm willing to do it. And I think, Video games in some ways taught me that that like wow, there's a pow.

There's like that. So insanely powerful that this video game can get me to sit here and press the same couple buttons over and over and over again and not only like act, it can get me to do it but I'm Flo stated like I lose track of time. I'm like, all engrossed in this task. It's fascinating. And I think trying to like hack that system is, I mean, just that's so powerful. Like, imagine if Sonny was like, hey, Eric, I'm going to get you to sit.

Chair and press the same button, thousands of times for two hours and you're going to love it. I'd be like, okay yeah BS But Here Comes Minecraft and just dunks on me like ah yeah. That would you loved collecting? Yeah. Well, I was like, I don't know. The other problem that I have is like especially in stuff like Minecraft. Like if I was going to build the birdcage, right?

Like I also know and this is something that we haven't encountered yet but like I would have a very hard time walking away and Being like it's done like even with our house like I keep fucking adding like Windows and shit because I was like, nah. I was like, I last like literally last night at, like, 2:00 in the morning, I woke up and I was like, I'm going to make an upstairs because I just realized like I could make it upstairs because you could stay.

I didn't, I just did. I was like, fuck it. I would make upstairs. So I was like, excited. I was gonna build a little but I was like, that's that's the problem for me is like, as like that was thinking like The Sims 2 is like, it's just like, there's never like a finality. Do it, you know? Yeah, where is so it's like, I think, like I spend a longer time like chasing the do paid which, you know, it is what it is. Yeah. I guess that makes sense.

Well, it's interesting that we're, you know, thinking about like the variable reward where you're getting inconsistent rewards for behaviors, like with Minecraft, which is largely a creative game. I mean, there is like a story, you could play it, but, you know, it's largely a creative game, those rewards, the reward of seeing Seeing your finished Bridge, get Birdcage or seeing like the beautiful second floor to your little cottage. We're creating those for

ourselves. We're creating those goals and those dopamine rewards from seeing the finished product. We're creating those ourselves out of nothing. We're just inventing a creative Endeavor and deciding that it's worth working towards and then doing, yeah, and all the sudden like it's just incredible and especially with Minecraft so many times, you'll think I need to build this thing.

And in order to build this Aang, I need this other thing in order to build that other thing I need this other thing in order to get that thing, I need this other thing and so now you're getting that fourth string thing. So that when you get it you can do that third-string thing and finish up. And you have to remember management this task management. Exactly. And I am garbage at that in Minecraft garbage at in Minecraft.

Let's good practice. Yeah, well it's funny that it's worth doing all that stuff to get to that creative reward at the end that I've set for myself which is something that's I try to replicate in my own life but But not always successfully. Congratulations. You did it. You made it to the middle of the episode. Well done. Well done.

You indeed, before we get to the part where I awkwardly shoehorn in an ad for zillow.com that see ELO al.com and if you use code kto, they'll give you 10% off your order. I wanted to let you know that we are just about one month away from Eric moving down here to Georgia in order for us to make infinite Quest. Ville and full-time and we can't do that without your help as our audiences have continued to

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I'm gonna do it. This is a thing that we do. Well, if you're if you're new, if you're not new to implement best practices thing that we do every single time and I'm not just doing this on the spur of the moment, ready science quarter with Katie. Okay, there you go. That's a real thing that we've done recurring segment every

time. Yeah, we're Clockwork. I didn't make that up on the play but okay, so We kind of talked about like, maybe during a video game episode and I feel like we're like Meandering and do. It was things that I thought was really interesting is that for a very long time, there has been debate about whether or not video games, make your ADHD works like is screen time bad for you and it is a very controversial.

Thing which I think is really interesting because pretty can create Lee. They are now like they science is able to say that like there's no evidence that video games cause ADHD like if your kid plays a lot of video games early on, they're not like more likely to have ADHD but then like the conversation very quickly gets very nuanced and very interesting because for ADHD kids there's a lot of benefits to Playing video games and there's also a lot of like cons

to playing video games and so like it's really interesting balancing those two conversations because kind of like what you talked about earlier like kids with ADHD are are like statistically more likely to struggle with like video game addiction and that kind of thing. But at the same time played in moderation video games like help kids, build Skills. And one of them like you specifically, talked about is task management.

Like video games can help with task management and a list that I definitely prepared didn't prepare ahead of time. This is all off the top of it and it's not I this is all written out but it helps with like Visual and spatial skills and hand-eye coordination strategy and problem-solving like prioritization and like task management in general. And a really interesting one collaboration and teamwork.

And I read a really interesting study about how a lot of kids with ADHD struggle with social relationships because of like just the challenges of navigating Life as a neurodivergent kid and video games and especially like large multiplayer games were like you can meet people and you're sharing these common goals are actually really good for socializing kids who might not, otherwise get that same type of like support and community and friendship and I think that's

fucking interesting is shit. Shit like that is really, really interesting to me, but I don't know, like it's one of those things for like I grew up in the generation of like video games will rot your brain and they're bad for you and you can't ever let your kid look at a screen. Whatever.

And now we're starting to see like these places where like, no video games are actually like pretty good for things like like weirdly social skills and things like time management and that thing where conversely like, also sometimes time management out of game goes, Out the window because you're so hyper focused on like getting your jungle wood for your loom and Minecraft, you know. I just so it's super

interesting. Yeah I think what it seems to be is a really powerful tool and like all really powerful tools, it can hurt you like, it can do a lot of really good things, but if not moderated and used in a deliberate way, it can do some really bad things. Like for example, I'm I think Minecraft is for me, one of my the best Examples because it's

the video games. I play the most, but also because it really, really leans hard into that sort of task management thing, like, where you have to, you have a larger task that you then break down into smaller tasks. And then such a specifically difficult thing for people with ADHD, where one person sees like doing the dishes as being like a singular task people with ADHD, that task is a series of a hundreds and hundreds of smaller tasks.

I have to put on an apron, I have to reach to the left to grab the thing and, you know, All that kind of stuff in Minecraft is built on those types of things. But so video game, like, that is really good practice for practicing doing a multi-step tasks and stuff. It's good for it's practicing organization, you know, having a chest for your wood stuff, having a chest for your stuff

made out of stone and whatnot. It's really it's like a, you know, it's like lifting weights or something for task management. However, because of the nature of video games, because Video games are not built to be practice sessions for real life necessarily they're good on their own. They're not satisfying only. If you take the lessons that you learn from the video game and apply them to your real life, that has to be done manually, you have to decide to do that. You have to decide.

I'm going to think about what makes, you know, this game. So, rewarding to me, and what makes it so that I'm willing to do these complex, task management exercises. Do you have to do that and extrapolate? Annually. Because if you don't then well, I mean have to might be a mystery, you might have some thought but like, yeah, you know, I think because if you not in honestly, because how I say this, because it is a contained system, the video game, you can go into the video game.

Get a whole bunch of dopamine for a bunch of different reasons for completing tasks. For working hard towards goals, big rewards little rewards, lights colors music, the whole Shebang and then you can just stop and be like that was great and move on. You don't have to think. Why did that do so well from you? Why was I able to hyper focus on that for three hours four days,

six months? Why do I enter such a flow State and how do I try to get to try to figure out how this game is, motivating me such so that I can like Hack That and motivate myself in the real world in that same way you can just have this little other world that you go into and get all bunched ohmic which is fine, there's nothing wrong. That I'm not talking shit about that. Yeah, but I think that's what causes it to be such a

dangerous, albeit powerful tool. See I just, I think that's really interesting because I don't, I don't know if I entirely agree. Like I definitely think that like you can actively choose to like apply lessons but I also think like as weird as a comparison. Is this going to be? I think there's also like an internalization of things you know because like like I didn't play a lot of video games when I was a kid.

But I I sure as fuck did a lot of theater and like, I don't know if I ever like actively woke up in the morning and went, the lessons that I've learned in theater are applicable to the lessons. I learned in life, you know. But like I know that I learned how to solve problems on the Fly more competently and I know that I am like, obviously much better at talking in front of people. Like, I'm just throw me in front of any size crowd and I'm fine, you know?

And so like for me I also wonder if The internalization of success for people who naturally struggle with that kind of thing could just sort of like bleed over into real life without having to actively make the choice will like Endeavor. Like I like I talked about Endeavor on Tik-Tok the other

day. I'm like that's the whole sort of premise behind Endeavor for those of you who might not know what Endeavor is. It's fucking fascinating but it is the world's first scription video game that is designed for kids ages 8-12 to help them with their ADHD symptoms. And there's a lot of controversy and a lot of debate and a lot of discussion about whether or not it works and Leslie Society actually did a great follow-up video to my video talking about

like, wine. Maybe the research isn't exactly there yet, but the premise behind it, is this idea that like they built a game that is Typically designed to like light up the problem solving and sort of like dopamine reward receptors and a kids break. And so this idea is like you play this game for like 25 minutes a day or whatever for like four months or three months or whatever.

And at a certain point, the the doing of that the the using of those neural Pathways strengthens them and makes you more likely to be able to like apply those things in reality. The problem as Leslie brought up in her video, is that it is purely gauged based on like a computer ization, attention test and so fundamentally, like one of the issues is like, you're giving a kid a computer game and then testing them on a computer. And so, like naturally, they're going to learn to be more

attentive to a computer. So like it's hard to say whether or not those skills are being like applied, but the, but the idea is really interesting. In combination with this idea of like, do you or do you not choose to or like not choose but like learn that you can take those like time management skills and apply them elsewhere. It's super interesting and also completely unrelated. But I forgot to tell you this.

I have ADHD somebody from the fucking company came to my twitch stream today and they're like I saw your videos like thanks. Like I said, it's like everybody I could in the company and I was like I will give you $20 if you give me a game code because I desperately want to try this game and just see what it's like.

Like I just think it's so funny that they like they like know who out there like aware of me. I'll stake heard you were talking shit was like listen like I'm not gonna pretend to like vouch for your thing if like the research isn't there but it's certainly interesting you know. Yeah most definitely I mean I think it the question is sort of a how locally are specific school or skills useful. Yeah, like how precise is Their usefulness.

Like there are people on Tick Tock, who I don't remember the name of the Creator, but he calls he calls like his followers like brain brain Builders or something like that. I don't know. But he teaches a bunch of manual exercises that usually have to do with your hands. So like you make a, you make a pointy finger with one hand. So you point with one hand, like such with your right hand, you make a pointer finger and you point to the left. So you're putting like in words are just Self.

All right and with your left hand, you do a thumbs up. So you like pointing at your own thumbs up, okay? And then the idea is you just switch. So now you're going to do a thumbs up with your right hand and point with your left hand and then switch back. It's really hard, it's surprisingly difficult, right? And that hard. But the idea is that and this is a according to this person, I'm not saying this is all the way through She's fact, as I can tell she's good.

Oh, there we go. All right, I got it. I got a little bit here. Let. Okay, it's perfect. I can move on V. Whoever's the, the you dear listener are trying this wherever you are. I hope you get a quickly.

The Restless podcast could be a wash for something, just gonna be sitting there, doing that the whole, but if you're driving, don't try it. I don't you guys like driving, please, please don't do that but what the person who's teaching these exercises, what he espouses, Is that your strengthening neural Connections in your brain that are by default weak? Like you will the part of your brain? That does the pointy thing is very different than the part of your brain that does the

thumbs-up thing. So it's hard to switch back and forth between those things. And by practicing doing that, you're strengthening the neural pathway between those danks know again, this is what this person says. I'm not standing fully by that because the the controversy that always emerges in the comments is like you're not teaching people's brains to just be better. You're just teaching their brains to be better at that.

Specific thing at the pointy thumb e exercise like whether or not that's better for your overall. Brain is who the hell notes? Yeah. But right now, you're just teaching people to do that thing and I think that's roughly analogous to the video game thing. Yeah. Are you teaching you know, the skills that one learns in say Minecraft or Endeavor of task management? Do those skills by default, whether, you know, it or not, bleed into your everyday life, perhaps to some extent, they do.

I I think for everybody, it's different like for me, you know, whenever I'm at a boring job, my my impulse was always like how do I make this useful elsewhere? Like it would make the job less boring. So like I sort of by default do that like without knowing it. So I think for everybody there's like a some people might extrapolate the the lessons that they learned in a video game to their everyday life subconsciously where some people have to do it more manually.

But I think the question is is how much do the skills learned in video games? Bleed into your everyday life. By default and how much has to be done, I guess manual, because certainly learning stuff in video games can be applied to your everyday life. Because everything is that way, every single thing that happens to us as like lessons to teach us that if we think about, we can apply them to the rest of

our lives. Let's like a firm belief of mine, and I think the idea that video games do it in a subtle way that like slowly pushes our brain towards being better at task management. I think that as the research comes out Out that I'm really curious to watch it but I am very skeptical that like if you get good at this game then you'll be good at life. Like now getting good. At that game means. You got good at that game.

Yeah, you know you had to develop skills in order to get good at that game and that's cool as hell. Perhaps you can figure out what those skills are analogously to some other real-life thing can apply it there. That's crazy. But I think the idea of a video game where, like if you get good at the video game, then you're good at life. I would love to see that video game. I can't wait. Maybe come out and get by Eric and I have I told you my second

life story. Isn't that the game that like you can spend like real must spend and make real money in something like it's you know, like the the like Ready Player, One sort of like it's like basically that but like I played second life for I was writing an article for it. I used to write for Escapist magazine. Not a lot of people know this about me but I used a magician magazine. I used to write I used to write for a Gaming magazine and you're telling me this 39 minutes into

the video game besides. Yeah, I wrote I used to refer Escape as magazine. I would like, I wrote a lot about like Star Trek and like Star Wars, like that kind of thing. Like I didn't write about, like, gaming per se, but there's like a nerd magazine. But yeah, I wrote like several articles for Escapist, you can look them up. I think there's still a website or everybody's gonna think that I'm a liar, but I promise I did. But I was they wanted me to do because I had to About Sims.

And so they like, they wanted me to write an article about second life. And so I played second life for precisely two hours, and what happened to me in that two hours, I fucking dipped so hard on that game that I almost didn't write the article because I rolled into second life. This is such a dumb story, but I'm going to tell her anyway. So I rolled into second life and I had no idea what I was doing.

There's like all these people walking around or whatever and I happened to meet this couple and this couple was like just Decked Out. In this like vampire e, goth-like Kink fetish, where thing and I was like, okay, these people can party and so I'm like talking to the one guy and he's telling me I'm right. This is all in game. This is all in game and like, you know, my guys like I'm like the black T-shirt, like basic bitch. She like new kid in the game, whatever.

And so they like showed me the ropes and I tell them like, very honestly, like I'm I've just I'm just checking this out because I'm writing this article and I want to kind of understand like what's going on. And so this this the lady the lady vampire starts telling me this. Story about how like she's like met the like love of her life in this game and it's just like so wonderful if she can't believe and they like connected and it's just like the best thing ever and hooray. Hooray, hooray.

And then the other person like pulled me aside was like oh I want to show you something over here come in. So then this person very like tearfully confesses to me that like this person is madly in love with them and they think that they're like a you know 25 year old guy from like New Zealand or whatever but he's actually like 40 and he lives in California. Born. And he has no idea what to do. He's like this, like lie. Go on, and on, and on, for like, way too long.

And like, this is how I don't remember the details, but like it was like, one of them had like, just absolutely lied about who they are like just like going into it and then they were like in too deep and I was like, okay, that's enough. Second life for me. Like, I'm out. Like, no, absolutely not. Oh my gosh. About those people like dislike. Was banana, like it was just like I cannot imagine and so it's just like, I don't know. So like I did that show story. That's just a story to tell.

No I you know, I something that I found really interesting is you brought up earlier about how social skills are improved and cooperation and empathy, and stuff like that are improved by mediums certain studies set. I don't want to say that as being like, completely all the way through but seriously suggest that that's the case studies. And I find that delightful, I was reading a study whose name

is very long. So it's the video games in ADHD and non ADHD children: modalities of use in association with ADHD symptoms of turning you to the academic side. I love this for us. Oh, I've been on the academic side, I just really write down the name. They're always so long and I'm like awesome study. That's name was like 14, daddy words long but basically children with Lesser pro-social skills, pro-social skills, being

things like cooperation empathy. Like, you know, the stuff that you would make you good in like a class project like that kind of shit. Yeah. Sharing some children who whose parents reported that they lack. Those things were more likely to see increased video game use Over time. However, not necessarily in the category of excuse me. So Games, they didn't measure that in the study and so I find that I am really curious about how people whose pro-social skills are quote unquote, you

know? Like lacking. Yeah. How social interaction in video games changes because you're in a common world with these other people with common goals. Like for example, my brother and I, we were my brother. I have a brother. That's two and a half years older than me. Hi Cole. We we didn't really get along. We were kids, we didn't. I hate each other but we were very different. He was a sporty Sports person.

I was like a weird artsy kid. We gonna fight sweet brother stuff but the first time that we ever like stayed up late by talking to each other just as people as friends was about the game, RuneScape RuneScape is an MMORPG.

It's a massive multiplayer online role-playing game when I just messed that up basically he Nails it it's like it's sort of like World of Warcraft you build your character, you specialize you do go on a quest and stuff it's great and My brother was big into RuneScape. I was kind of into RuneScape, but one night we stayed up really late. And we were sitting here talking about like, if I were to build a new character, like what should I do?

And he was like, well, if you got really into archery you can sell this and I can meet introduce you to this other guy that can show you the stuff or whatever. And like my might like my current relationship with my brother now which is great. I love my brother like started at that moment. I remember specifically I remember the room we were sitting in.

I remember where he was sitting armored where I was sitting It started with that moment because now we had a Common Language to talk with to talk about common goals and understandings of things and like in a lot of the people in my Discord in your Discord who play like Minecraft and stuff like they, they now have this reality that they can interact with other people and where stuff makes sense, and they can talk using common terms

and stuff like that. All because of this video game world that they exist in together, and I think that's fucking beautiful. Like out of all the things that video games could possibly do for no Divergence, like task management and shit. I think that social aspect is by far the most exciting by far the most exciting a while ago, little. Here's all right, you got, you told you to video game stories. Here's a video game. Story of the loves a good for you.

Going to be sir. Can I just say for the record that was goddamn, wholesome thing that I've ever heard in my entire life. That was fucking, thank you for sharing that story, because that was good. Lovely, proceed. Thank you also got Guitar, Hero. Was the first thing I was ever better at than my brother asked. Why can't anybody out here with older siblings? You know, when you're like growing up there like everything you do, they like just get better at it and they're like,

oh, great. Now I have that guitar. Here was the first time. The thing I was ever better at than my brother was great healthy competition. But for example, so so there's this game called Red Dead, Redemption to you've probably heard of it. It's one of the most successful video games of all time. It's a beautiful game. It's a, we started walking around the whole Western petting dogs.

So exactly, it's wonderful gate Beauty get on a horse and you will find out and I know exactly how you make friends and that's it and nothing bad ever happens. We got to start doing that kid here you and me game where we just go around the entire map and make friends with all the dogs people. But there's also there's online plays while there's like a story when there's online and you create your character, you make like a like a person thing and you can interact with other real

people in this game world. So I started doing that. That and it's a long story, don't worry about it. I ended up being what was that device president or something of this Guild? This Discord Guild of like hundreds of people super cool. Super cool. We were called, the Hanover Hanover hold over his. I think they still around but they were organized like they did this design game Vents and they would invent games in the

game as really, it was awesome. But anyways, that being said I was playing video Consistently with a large group of people all over the world for like a year and the friendships I made. There were real, like I want to just say for the record real quick, that sometimes somebody will say something like my friend, who I play video games with, I've never met them in real life, but I play video games with them online.

It's really easy to discredit that because it's kind of funny, like, how they met on Xbox. But like, those are real serious friendships, they talk to them. Like, imagine if they were some of they talk to somebody on the phone for like, Like, you know, six hours every day. How closely we go with that person. Imagine I met people imagine that I can't possibly imagine what kind of friendship would be formed by somebody. Who you talked with five hours every single day. Oh my gosh.

That's right. That's what we do. Katie, I keep forgetting that you're not like in my house because you're just always on a screen in my house. So I'm like, that's right. My twin my phone dies, I'm just alone. Now, it's terrible. Anyways, in this game, like, dude, be with a you'd be like doing Thing, you need spawn in and be like, hey, are you a hand over? Hold over and you'd like and,

you know, like, holy shit. We're part of the same group and then you would walk around and walk around in the woods and go hunting or go sailing with this kid. And there I remember I don't want to say his name out loud because in case he's still around but there was this kid who like you know when you're playing a video game you can have a mic or not you know. So if you walk close to somebody you can bake and talk to you but some people don't have Mike's.

So there they just communicate with body language. So I walked up this kid and I was like, hey Hey, you know, you're a holdover person whatever. Let's go to a thing and he didn't say anything. So I just assumed you didn't have a mic and we walked into the woods and be sure to do on a bunch of stuff together or just cooperatively hunting and stuff. And after like an hour, he said something like nothing. He just said, like there's a

deer over there. Something this whole thing, I was like, oh my gosh, you have a mic. That's so cool. And he just said, yeah, we kept playing and we kept doing it and ever. He slowly started to say more nothing like crazy deep, but he just slowly started saying, like I think if we go over here, there's some turkey's. Like that and we played we played we played we like added each other as friends and at the end of it he was like hey yeah, I don't really see people.

Very often like in real life. He's like really socially anxious. Like I don't really like talking to people. I don't have very many friends at school, you know, like, I don't have a lot of friends in like, that was really nice, you know, just like, I know you like saying, like it was a really big deal for him to be with another

person and like, talk to them. In this video game, gave us a common goal and gave us like a Judge to talk with each other and it was like one of the most beautiful things I've ever been a part of and I think in the newer version communities stuff like that is just, I mean, it's beautiful. It's just fucking beautiful like, whatever it can do in terms of like task organization skills, great. But when you're playing multiplayer games in, you're

interacting with people. A lot of really lovely. Lovely things can happen that can give you confidence in your everyday life. You know, the idea of talking to strangers or, or doing something nice for someone.

Else it's really delightful especially Minecraft servers because you can like you can just walk up to somebody and be like here's Four Diamonds, you know and then you make a friend and then one day you come back to your base and they give you some cold because they know you needed call and you make friends. It's a wonderful way to getting people all the stuff for House. Have You Been Just like, oh really totally. Well, that's how I got, you know, the Star Wars the Star Wars picture.

Yeah. I like I went into town and like, asked like, does anybody know where I can get? Denny, you know, wool in this one guy was like follow me and he took me on this huge Adventure. That's amazing. He was like a high level player. You'd like diamond, everything didn't. So he just gave me some stuff that's super nice. Like you're a new player. So here's some stuff, five people on that server. So I feel like probably everyone has like their kids, the kids. Hello.

I mean, I think you're right. Like, I think what's really interesting is like The the constant balance that like the research like just purely from like making it boring again but like one term that comes up like all the time is like problematic usage, like it's not, they're not necessarily calling it like an addiction, but they're calling it problematic usage.

But I think that like, it's it's it's something to be aware of, but I also think that like, in some circumstances, like the one that you talk about, like what even is problematic usage and like, you know, I don't want to put it like that, but it's I think that there's such a balance between like What outside observers might consider you know problematic like parents reporting kids, problematic usage.

But if your kid is having like a lot of problems at school and doesn't have very many friends and you can go log on to Red Dead Redemption and like have like a real you know conversation with somebody like you might think it's problematic because he's holed up in his room for five hours but like for them like that might be really helpful but at the same time like also How do you your kid outside and make sure that

they're like healthy? So, it's like, I don't, there's no like perfect solution, but I think that it's really interesting to think about the dichotomy there of like, what is being helped? And what is being hindered? And it's like, I think that it's, I think just like across the board. Like, I think video games are so much more of a help than a hindrance, you know, for like a lot of people, But there's still such like a kind of like ADHD.

There's still such like a stereotype of like what it is and what it looks like and how it works and everything that it's just, I don't know, it's totally, I don't know where I was going with that. I was trying to say something deep and I just completely lost it. Halfway through not. Well no I think he did. I think from the outside perspective like it's easy to look at somebody playing video games and assume they're doing

one thing. Yes. Like, oh, you know, Eric sitting there and he's been playing video games for five parts like, well, no, I I've been doing all sorts of different stuff during this five hours, what it looks like from the outside is that I've been doing the same thing but that's not necessarily the case. I could be you know making friends in friggin Spain or something like that. And I mean I think ultimately what it comes down to to repeat myself again, we see that comes

out of communication. Every time I say that I'm like, am I really saying that again? But it's just absolutely so true in every realm. I think if your Ed is playing video games a lot. I think there are a lot of different ways to play video games, I think, if you're playing video games alone and you're, you know, just doing the same repetitive, non, I don't know. You can do anything to access in an unhealthy way. Yeah. For sure, you can do anything.

You can exercise too much, you know, but understanding what your kid is doing in this game, you know, to go up to him and ask like what? So who's that guy? Why do you have to go do that thing? Like what what's you do? You have any friends? Who's that? Oh cool. Tell your friend. You know, skull boy is 72. I said hello or something? Like, I don't know just but just understand that what they're doing is actually very complicated and can be very helpful.

It needs to be moderated, like everything does, but it can be very helpful, that's fast. I'm sorry. You can see the bagel and for like 30 seconds. Well, obviously, you know, like people could do stuff to watch and my first instinct was like, Oh, you mean like when somebody place too many scratchy lotteries he eats cake too much

cake. Oh, when somebody smokes, too many cigarettes when somebody yeah, that's all I could think about and I'm sorry but then my bread like latched onto it because I couldn't say because I didn't want to interrupt him that I feel awkward but I just can't figure like about it because it's like shout-out. John Mulaney new in town. Go watch it, everybody. It's fantastic. When somebody smokes, too many state. When somebody play's do many. Yes, you got it, man.

I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to be real. That I just got. So that was about. That was a whole ass ADHD moment. That's very funny. What's a closing? Thoughts Katie. What do you what do you think? What do you think? Closing thoughts, I think eloquent on the spot. Oh fuck, I'm just being a jerk you know, I think that having a cognizance of the problems that video games can present when played to access is really important. Because over and over and over.

The research shows us that people with ADHD are pre to predisposition pre. Fuck me predisposed to problematic video game usage, whether or not that spirals into full-on like video game. Addiction is like a whole other conversation, but the fact remains that like, consistently across the board. We see that people with ADHD tend to play too much too long, that kind of thing.

However, on the completely other and very much more wholesome side, The coin is all of the, the things that video games can help kids with, and adults even, you know? And so I think that an awareness of issues that might arise going in is really important, but they're also kind of, I don't say simple to circumvent especially if you're sort of, in the depths of like, oh shit. I'm playing way too much Minecraft. But things like timers and

screen. Limitations and like that, kind of thing can really go a long way in order to help you get the benefits of it without completely burning yourself up because you've done nothing but play Minecraft for 18 hours. Yeah eloquent yeah so good. So goddamn eloquent Katie my gosh pocket eloquent II completely agree. I think it's worth monitoring making sure that you're you're using this thing in a non-problematic way. You're making sure that your shoes To do the thing.

You're not compulsively doing this. A that's big in Addiction in general, like are you deciding to do the thing, or do you have to do the thing? So monitoring that and making sure that you're aware of time in general, because video games tend to Flow State. You and then all of a sudden that's been, like, 10 hours and you forgot your, to pick your kid up at the baseball practice, or whatever, something like that. So paying attention to that is deeply important.

Whether that's the use Of an actual timer or just taking the collected. I just set up to depressing of a tableau. No, it's okay. I was very specifically. Picture guy had one of those like cinematic moments where I was picturing like little Jimmy and he was in like his baseball uniform with the combat, and it's like, raining. He's like sad. And he's like, say he's like kick a rock and then like, yeah, um, bad dad, like drives up. Like start Jimmy guys, and I run

a raid, it's cool dad. Is really important to you. It's okay. And then and then and then Charlie Brown Christmas Thursday is what color was the uniform by the way I was like it was like white and blue is like those excited. Let's picture yells at me. Like come to you from like little whole picture and blue. He's like, he's like a little, like his knees. Like a little grass stains on it and like most boys, Dad. Yeah. And then sue me grows up to be

like an adamant. An anti video game like, what - kids like a schedule, like Dad, what happened, and he's immediately pictures that rainy day in The Dugout, I don't want to talk about it. No video games not in my house, but also the other side of the coin. I think they could be incredibly useful, they can. When you're, when you're when you find yourself completing multi-step tasks in a video game when in Retreat and in everyday life that's actually very difficult.

Take a little peek at that. Put it aside for a second ago. Hot. That's really interesting. Just did a multi-step tasks to achieve a goal. That why is that? Did I set that goal? Myself? Did the video game? Set it for me. What was the goal? Was it a creative goal? Was it? Who knows? And try to see and try to recognize when that occurs in your everyday life, I think that's big. And then the social aspect of it, pay attention to how a video game is treating you socially.

Are you meeting people because of it or you like, not talking to anybody for days and days, and days on end, which there's not necessarily anything wrong with, but they can definitely become Um, the problem very quickly. So I think paying attention to those things are, you know, you know, worth worth, checking out worth, checking out. You know what I'm saying? They do now Katie, the real question is, do you want to play some Minecraft real quick?

Or do you want to do that? A little bit of Minecraft? Yeah. Ya wanna play a little bit of Minecraft. All right. All right, every we're gonna go play Minecraft. Thanks everybody. Stay tuned for Katie's awesome outro. Build the shit out of this Loom so hard. You don't even know. Ya can't get some fruits of those looms. I'm really on the underwear joke. I don't know why we are into it weird.

That that's where you go. Well, everybody that's it for infinite Quest this week, but before we go, I'm sure, you know, what time it is, but if you don't know what time it is, have you subscribed to our patreon, we put your name in a song. And so, here is this week's patreon song. Let's Go. This week, we'd like to thank Margaret and Autumn. And also, our friend Phil who has a cool email address, but I'm not going to tell you what it is. And also, Sarah and Sarah, and Sarah, and Sarah.

It's not a joke. And I honestly can't remember if we thank Shawna and Chris and Shannon last week, but I'm too lazy to listen back to last week's episode. So thank you, twice. Maybe if you would like your name in our patreon song, then all you have to do is visit w-w-w dot patreon.com infinite Quest. Become a subscriber and from all of us here at infinite Quest. Thank you very much for. I just sort of segue doubt of this are, did I? But really everybody.

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for supporting us every week. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for making us part of your lives and from all of us at infinite quest to me and Eric and RD. I'm Chris and our producer Brian. Remember to drink some water. Remember to take your meds. Remember to eat Eat something be kind to yourself. Be kind to others and remember, we love you. That's it for us this week. We'll see you next week. Bye everybody.